Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy.
I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora.
Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of
queer media. Representation matters.
And we're here to talk about it. Cheers, queers.
This month for Big Gay Book Club, we've read the newly
released novel Dear Wendy, and we are super lucky to have the
author and JAO joining our discussion.
Welcome to the podcast, Anne. Well, thank you for having me.
I've done that times as well. You can keep that in if you want
to. Welcome to my my childhood
bedroom. It's beautiful.
OK, so Dear Wendy is set in.
I've meant to look this up. Wellesley.
OK, I just wanted to make sure. Yeah.
So dear Wendy is set in Wellesley College and follows
Sophie and Joe as they become friends while unknowingly engage
in an online rivalry over their relationship advice personas
Wendy and Wanda. What was the inspiration for
this story? Oh, I was inspired by a lot of
things when I came up with the idea for it.
I had recently read this book called Perfect on Paper by
Sophie Gonzalez, which is about this girl who runs like this
love advice giving scheme out of an empty locker in her high
school. And I had gotten the idea of
like an A row ace person writing love advice.
Obviously not out of an empty locker.
But I was also inspired by these Instagram accounts that are run
by various Wellesley College students that just to do various
wacky zany things. There was one that just posted
pictures of Canadian geese that were on campus.
There was one that posted pictures of the soup that they
had at dining halls. One in particular that really
inspired Dear Wendy was a Crush Confessions account where people
just submitted people that they liked.
Usually the Crush Confessions were not very serious, they were
mostly from people's friends trying to hype them up.
But that was where I got my inspiration from.
That's awesome. Is there that many different
types of soups at the college? Oh no, there's not very many.
It's all like I didn't can. Got it.
So does that mean the geese watching club was real?
Because that was mentioned in the book.
Yes. So in the book there is a geese
watching club started by an upperclassman that Sophie knows.
It is not based on any real clubs at Wellesley unfortunately
we do have some odd clubs. I have a friend who started a
juggling club and when she told me about it, I thought that she
was lying to me. I thought she was doing a bit
because I was like, what do you mean that you've been juggling
with an old woman named Ellen for the last several months?
That sentence in general is so funny I.
Love that so much? Yeah, but we do have many, many,
many geese on campus. I just love how specific that
club is though. It's just it's not bird
watching, it's just just the geese.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm, the URL would join it.
I would. I like birds though.
I found that really interesting. OK, so we as as Caitlyn
mentioned, the two main characters, their online
personas are Wendy and Wanda, and there's and there's some
differences between the two. So would you consider yourself
more of a Wendy or a Wanda? I would consider myself a mix of
both. I think that most of the time I
am a Wanda who wants to be a Wendy.
A lot of I think that my public persona and the the face that I
put out for my acquaintances, not necessarily my close
friends, is that of a Wendy. But when you get down to it,
like I do procrastinate and I do slack on a lot of things, and
hey, I'm not 100% on top of everything all the time, but I I
wanna be and I I try to be. I feel that.
Yeah, that's very really an old answer.
I love that. In the book, I believe Sophie's
rattling off all these things that they're that she's gonna
do. And Joe was like, are you a
Virgo? And I felt so-called out by that
because I am a Virgo and that would definitely be something I
would do. But anyway, who would you choose
to ask for advice, Wendy or Wanda?
And what would you ask? Well, I feel like I am not the
type of person to need advice on most things, and so I'd probably
ask something silly to Wanda because I'd like to get a laugh
out of it. But I I do think there have been
a couple of times in my life where I could have used advice
from Wendy, from Dear Wendy, but only in very, very specific
situations and not the types of questions that Wendy usually
answers, because they're usually about romantic relationships.
And I've not had any sort of experience that would require me
asking a question of that sort. But I do think that I would most
likely ask a question for Wanda, probably something innocuous
like what should I pack for my weekend trip?
And then Wanda would be like, why are you asking me this?
That is a great answer. I agree.
Awanda would just be like, I'm feeling sad and just like stand
a random question and just make you smile.
I love that. Excuse me.
All right, next question. In the first chapter, Sophie
mentions she feels people take her more seriously as Wendy
quote because I am a disembodied wall of text instead of a petite
Chinese girl who sounds shrill if he tries to raise her voice.
Sophie, it seems to be like Sophie's very like, kind of like
empowered by her online persona, which she uses throughout the
novel to explore her passion for analyzing human relationships.
Why did you choose to have Sophie explore that passion
through like Wendy, like online, rather than by, like, observing
people in real life? I think that Sophie is just not
a A quiet and subtle enough person to to observe silently in
real life. I I think that she has a lot of
opinions and wants to say them and so that is why she makes
this Wendy account. Honestly, that's such a good
answer. Like this would be a whole
different tone of a book if she was trying to do this in real
life. Yeah.
So the novel switches point of view between the two
protagonists, Sophie and Joe. Why did you decide to tell the
story from both point of views? I thought that if I chose one or
the other, that the story would be a little bit more boring
because I had ideas for character arcs for both of them
to go through. And a lot of times with, at
least in YA contemporary books, when you have a single point of
view, it's because that character's arc is the most
compelling and the most interesting for you to read.
And when you have a dual POV book in YA contemporary at least
'cause that is my field of expertise.
Usually the two characters storylines do play off of each
other and both captivate the reader an equal amount.
Yeah, I think that's that's that's a really good point.
Also, like with the rivalry, I think it was a really excellent
choice to like. Yeah, it was.
It was fun to to have the reader know more than the characters do
at any point in time. It is very fair, I I thought.
That the dual point of view was very needed in this.
Actually I'm not as used to dual point of view.
I'm used to like 1. So having the two, it definitely
showed the differences. Yeah, and you and you did a
phenomenal job in writing both Joe and and Sophie by making
their like voices distinct. It's particularly like their
inner monologues, for example. Like a lot of the time like
Sophie seems seems in her head very self assured, which like.
Doesn't matter to. Translate outside of her head
And then as compared to Joe, who's like just spirals a lot of
the times these like dark thoughts and the chest to like
or they have to like stop themselves and be like, wait a
minute, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, great, slow down.
So for me, like, the way you wrote them also gave me a really
good sense of like who they were, which was good to like
contrast from chapter to chapter when we switched.
So when you're when you're sitting down to kind of like
write the two characters, like what kind of subtleties were you
trying to get across by like I don't know, like telling the
different POV's between the two, especially with like inner
monologues? Oh gosh, I remember there was
one pass through that I did where all I did was give Sophie
longer paragraphs and Joe shorter paragraphs in their like
inner monologues because I think that is a a great way to
distinguish their points of view.
This was early on during revisions and so that
distinction got a little bit lost as I did more and more
revisions. But it was there like halfway
through the editing process and I think that helped distinguish
their voices pretty well. That Sophie has all these very
long strings of thoughts that make a lot of sense and and that
Joe is kind of choppy and and jumps all over the place.
That that just that. I feel like that still
translated in the final novel and also like when you see their
online posts like that also matches.
I have no place to put this comment.
But just as an aside, I love that you had one of Sophie's
like character quirks is that she names her plants and I just
wanted to say thank you for that.
I found that relatable. I actually don't name my plants.
I can't keep them alive for long enough.
That's me. Well, I did have a dead plant
that I named that just stuck with me because I I was like, I
knew I was gonna die, but it was like a work dead plant.
So. All right.
Switching off from dead plants, one notable characteristic that
Joe and Sophie shares, they're both aromantic and asexual.
So from the very like very beginning like the very first
page the the characters very clearly are both like identify
with those labels when you wrote the book, why did you decide to
have them like comfortable in their identity from the
beginning versus like have them go on the journey of like
discovering that? Well, actually when I was
originally writing the book, I thought about having Joe have
like a coming out experience of figuring out their identity, but
it just didn't fit in the story very well.
There was too much going on in that situation, and I also have
read a decent amount of books where and a romantic or asexual
character comes to realize that they are such.
You know, CB Lee wrote one, not your backup.
Alice Osman quite famously has one called loveless.
I believe Taj Hart's Tolstoy also has a character discovering
she's asexual. And so I I thought it was maybe
a little more interesting for me to write about people who
already are sure of their identities.
I love that, because that's actually one of Theora's gripes
about media in general is like everything focuses on coming out
where we just need characters who are sure of themselves but
still figuring it out. And there is so much more to the
queer experience than just figuring out that you are queer.
Because what happens after you do figure?
It out. Yeah, I I really enjoyed that
you you made that choice too, because it made the
conversations between Joe and Sophie when they really started
getting to know each other. And they're like, they're the
Spider Man meme and they're like you.
You and like their. Conversations were just so great
because that really is the a a big, bigger part of the
experience is just like finding community with other people.
So I really, I I appreciate that you made that choice with the
two of them. It was really great.
All right. Next question.
So Wellesley is a unique school originated as a women's college,
the women's college. The typical student population
is free of cisgendered men. Joe noted quote, Being in an
environment where none of your peers are cisgender men really
compels you to be your most authentic self, including on
social media. If this story took place at a
different university like MIT, how would the setting impact
Sophie and Joe's story? Oh gosh, well, MIT specifically,
it would be very different because I don't think Sophie and
Joe would have been able to to study what they do because it is
a STEM education primarily there and Wellesley is a liberal arts
education. But just if it was set at, say,
a Co Ed liberal arts college, I do feel that the culture of the
school would be quite different. Because with the presence of
cisgender men, especially heterosexual cisgender men,
there there's a lot more of this like weird social dance that we
do around everybody, where those boundaries are kind of broken a
little bit when CIS men are not present.
Yeah, there's I think it was. I can't remember if it was stuff
here Joe, but one of the characters definitely had.
I think it was Joe had more like anxiety, like when they were
like, oh, men are around. It's like it like it like
instantly, like changed the behavior of the character, not
just like externally but also internally.
Yeah, I definitely behave very differently when I'm around a
large quantity of CIS men than I do when I'm around other women,
other queer people. Yeah, it's it is very different.
Yeah, that's relatable. I think both Joe and Sophie's
perception of that environment, they're they're different.
And I I think I do tend to get more introverted and clam up
around big groups of cisgender. It also seemed to just like give
the characters just like freedom, kind of like what Joe
was saying, just like in all aspects, not just like in person
but like online I feel like in which I thought was an
interesting like setting to think about in in the YA book
specifically when characters are like still figuring themselves
out. So I really enjoyed that aspect.
It made it a a very unique thing for the book since I haven't
read many like contemporary novels in that kind of setting.
So that was really refreshing to to read honestly.
All right, so another aspect of the novel that I really love is
the the family aspect when it comes to like, Sophia and Joe,
'cause they both go on this, this journey with their families
in terms of, like, gaining acceptance in many different
aspects, from like, parents accepting the fact that I chose
to go to this liberal arts school from like.
And then there's the queer aspect of, like, what their
identity is. In Sophie's case, I thought it
was really fascinating that she she learns to accept that her
parents may never fully understand her choices which was
heartbreaking to read but also like hugely mature for her to
like come to like that kind of like conclusion at such a young
age. So how did the differences in
the in the parents themselves like the parents life
experiences, the dynamics of their families, how did that
impact like that journey for both Joe and and Sophie?
That's a great question. I think that I wrote Joe's
parents to be possibly as accepting as humanly possible
and just entirely, fully supportive of everything that
she does. Because there are many people
with parents who are exactly like that, and they're so
fortunate. And I wanted to have, like, good
parents, fully good parents represented in this book because
you don't see that a lot. There are so many books where
people have absent parents, dead parents, entirely irrelevant
parents. But for a lot of people in real
life, your your parents are one of your biggest support systems
and they really do impact the way that you live your life and
everything. Sophie's parents, I will not say
that they are based on my own parents specifically because I
think that that is not at all what my parents are actually
like, but they are a little bit more complicated and a bit more
nuanced as individuals because I I see a lot of complicated
parents in in real life, not everybody is going to fully
understand the next generation as much as, you know the younger
generation hopes for, But you can still have a good
relationship with your parents even if you don't fully
understand each other. Yeah, I agree.
I like that aspect of of Sophie's journey too, because,
you know, there's many different kinds of people who come from
many different backgrounds and life experiences and that does
ultimately impact, you know, kind of them and the next
generation to some degree when they're raising them.
So I thought that was really great.
And with Joe too, I thought it was really interesting that you
set up Joe's. Joe has queer parents.
So I thought it was also interesting that, like, even
though they could relate, they couldn't 'cause their journeys
are also very different and in a a different time period when
things were less accepting, etcetera.
So I thought the way you built all the family dynamics was
really fantastic and just and and I agree with you there,
there are so many like queer novels in particular where like
the parents are either absent or just really like their
humanity's stripped a little bit, which not to say that
doesn't happen. So I like that you humanize
everybody and just through the characters lenses they saw their
parents as human also, which I thought was really great.
So something else that is very real and relevant for people is
the book touches on a fear for those on the A spec,
particularly Joe, who is being, which is being alone forever.
How did you approach this topic when writing the novel?
Well, I have a bit of a fear of being alone myself.
It was much more prominent when I was in high school, when I was
at the target demographic for this book, where I was seeing
everybody around me getting into these relationships.
And that sort of continued into early college as well, where
even my friends who had been perpetually single, like, we're
also starting to get into relationships.
And I I sort of had FOMO like I I did not want to miss out on
this experience of finding like companionship in partnership
with another person. But.
At the same time, I also knew that that absolutely wasn't for
me. Like, it disgusted me to think
about it. It was like completely
repulsive. And so trying to balance that
thought in my head was very difficult.
And I wanted to put that on paper and sort of show other
people that, that this is a common experience to have.
Like I was not the only one who felt this way.
I have friends who are still perpetually single, who are not
a romantic or asexual, who also feel this way.
It's it's not unique to a spec, people in particular, although
it could be more common. I found it relatable.
Yeah. And also like media is media in
particular is so hyper focused on the romantic companionship
aspect to like be like it's OK to not want that or in any way
shape or form. Also a great message.
Yes, that that is very true and I I really love that it really
did. I mean, the nature of the book
focuses on friend relationship because people do not think that
is a relationship where it's it still needs the same amount.
Of work as a. Romantic relationship.
And it's still I I just love when I forget who realized it
first. But one of them was like, I want
to be roommates with this person.
I want us to do all of these things together.
And just that realization was amazing and I just thought it
was so cute it. Was Speaking of cute.
The other really cute scene that I love is when Theo comes out of
Straight to Joe. I've been waiting for the scene
in the media for so long. It was the perfect mix of just
like humor and heartwarming and just when did the brilliance
come to you to like write the scene?
Because it's just it's so good. That scene was actually a pretty
late addition to the book. I had Joe.
Well, this is kind of spoiling what happens in the book.
But I had Joe like going home to her parents and like being
really sad and stuff. And I realized it was jumping
straight from that to the next scene in the book.
And I was like, I should probably lighten this up a
little bit. And I I just thought of having
Joe's brother show up and do something funny because he's
like not really in the book otherwise.
He's just he just kind of exists as a person.
And yeah, I I thought that, you know, a a 12 year old who is the
child of lesbians, who has an A Roy's older sister would would
feel nervous to tell everybody that he's straight.
Oh my gosh, yes. Especially when you like
thinking of the age as well. It was just adorable how nervous
he was. Yeah, and actually this book
came out well after I was finished revising Dear Wendy,
But if you've ever read The Year My Life Fell in the Toilet by
Jake, Maya Arlo, the main character, is also worried,
actually, to tell her mom that she likes girls, 'cause her mom
also likes girls and and she's like, Oh my God, she's gonna
know exactly what it's like. She's gonna she's gonna think
that I'm copying her. Oh.
My gosh, I love that. Oh, my gosh.
No, we have done that. OK, so we've talked about so
many, like things that we loved in this book.
So let's continue that with something we also think is
perfect in the dedication which you write quote, and to the
people who are about to realize that they're asexual, end or
aromantic. After reading this book, you
never know, it could be you. On this podcast, we often say
representation matters. In your opinion, how is the
state of asexual and aromantic representation in media?
Well, it could be better, but it also has been worse.
It's been getting a lot better in recent years than it has
been. I can finally name more than
like 2 shows that have characters who come out as
asexual, which is shocking that that There was once a time when
there were like none, but but now there's there's quite a few.
And I I don't know if we're seeing it very much in movies
yet, although movies seem to be the slowest to take up new
things. But at least in books, at least
in YA literature, we're doing pretty well.
There's a lot of books about asexual or a romantic
characters, and a lot of times it isn't even like critical to
the plot. It just kind of is there, which
is to me that's a sign that that representation is getting better
because if it's not the focal point of the story, then that
that does mean something. And yeah, I mean multiple have
hit the New York Times bestseller list like Foul Lady
Fortune by Chloe Gong has a Demi sexual main character.
Of course, the word wasn't invented yet in the 1930s, so
it's never said in the book, but it's made pretty explicit that
that is how her identity is. Of course, Loveless was on the
New York Times list for a long time, and that was a really big
deal to me because when that book came out, I devoured it.
And it was the first time that I'd really seen, in my
experience, so, like carefully baked into a work of media in a
way that was so intensely relatable to me.
So yeah, I do think that representation is really
improving very well, especially in young adult literature.
I'm looking forward to seeing more representation though,
because we could always use more.
Yes. Totally agree and dear Wendy is
adding to that. So thank you for adding to the.
You're welcome. OK.
So back to Sophie and Joe. So I'm sorry, while Sophie and
Joe are not talking to each other, Sophie decides to create
this Instagram Instagram account for the Diana's and listens to
folklore while doing so. I'd love to give you those
Caitlyn. The question is why?
Folklore. Because I was listening to
folklore a lot while I was writing the book.
That's it. That's a great answer.
We bring up Taylor Swift randomly on many episodes and we
had to ask. This of course, yeah, no
evermore came out right around when I started writing the book.
So I I was listening to it like non-stop.
Yep, that that sounds right. So along the lines of the same
question, something we have been doing on the podcast recently is
choosing Taylor Swift's songs we think relate to what we are
covering. If you ever seen Gap the series,
we've turned like that entire show into just Taylor Swift
songs we did. Is there?
Not not at all. Is there a Taylor Swift song you
think would describe Dear Wendy? I actually got asked this
recently and I had to. I had to dig deep into the
archives for it. I think that her song on her
debut album, that was a bonus track.
I'm Only Me when I'm with You. That would be a great song for
this book. If you've watched the music
video, It's all just clips of Taylor and her best friend from
high school and I think it's just adorable and such a great
song. And I can't believe she wrote it
when she was like 15 years old. Yes, this is genius.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna say I also did research earlier today,
'cause I was like, sometimes the person we interview turn it back
on us. So I wanted to have an answer
prepared. That was my answer as well.
So that's the song. It's official.
You heard your post, everybody. Well, technically you heard it
here second, technically yes, we.
Will hear it somewhere else Caitlin.
Anyway those that concludes our questions and thank you so much
for stopping by and. Thank you the.
Privilege to read this book before it came out.
We really appreciate it. It was really nice getting to
know you and you know your thought process for putting this
novel together. Before we.
Before we sign off and say goodbye, do you have any like,
anything you'd like to say for like, the listeners at home?
I don't know. Buy my book.
I need to pay my bills, Yeah. The real estate answer ever.
If you can't, if you can't buy my book, get it from the
library. And if you can't do either of
those things, I'm I'm really, really sorry.
You are missing out OK. You are.
You are like there are other methods to get my book that I
cannot condone, but they exist. I also have to say I think
Wellesley should give you like a brand sponsorship because I
started looking into this college after work.
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, that's. Like best advertisement ever.
Anyway, go grab a copy of Dear Wendy, it's really fantastic.
And follow and on social media for like updates, ways to get
the books. Yeah.
Yeah, so until next time, hydrate for lesbian Jesus,
everyone. And gate up all over the place.
Bye. And with that, we've been big
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