Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy.
I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora.
Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of
queer media. Representation matters.
And we're here to talk about it. Cheers, queers.
We are back with another super fun interview.
Today we are talking to Mark Julian, the talented graphic
novelist who created Just in Case In the Closet Monster and
Becoming Able. Welcome to the podcast, Mark.
Oh, thank you. I'm so glad to be here.
I I hope I can live up to the name of your podcast and have
lots of energy. Oh, oh, we have all the
confidence in the world in you. Yes.
All right, so to kick things off for our listeners at home who
may not know what inspired you to write your first graphic
novel, which was, just in case, in the Closet Monster.
Yeah, that's a great question. I lost my father to
complications due to Alzheimer's disease and I never had the
opportunity to tell my dad that I was gay.
And so my book is my creative way of being able to tell my dad
all the things I never had the courage to say to him while he
was alive. Yeah.
That's such a beautiful way to, like, cope with such a big thing
in your life, Like not being able to tell a family member in
Alzheimer's, which is such a horrible and debilitating
disease, to, like, have those two things kind of collide must
have been really, really challenging for you.
I'm glad that you had, like, a creative way to process and
like, kind of like, deal with that.
And it really does show in the book, like you mentioned, I
think in the intro you had like your dad in like a portrait in
like 1 of the first or second frames of like Justin in his
room. And yeah, it was, it was really
beautiful. And I think that kind of like
came through with Justin's story in particular.
Oh, I'm glad. I'm glad.
Yeah, I really admire the like the vulnerability that you had
putting your story out there and you start the book with it.
And I was just curious why you decided to include that in this?
Book I've been trying to be as truthful as I can when I wrote
the book I I I I wanted to like I wanted to deal with the fact
that I had lost my dad and never got a chance to tell him.
I, I, I was fortunate enough to tell my other family members and
they've been great with me coming out, but I wanted to
connect with the readers as as early as I possibly could,
right? I wanted them to know who I was
and, and, and, and that this story was a personal story and,
and that there, that there was truth in this story.
And, and, and truth has always been really important to me.
Although our relationship to truth changes as we grow older,
But I, I, I, I think that that, that that's the reason that I,
that I started the book the way that I did.
That's wonderful. I always, I sometimes I say too
much out there, but I just like if I anything I say help
somebody or connects with somebody, then it's all worth
it. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
I was so alone when I came out of the closet.
It took me a long time to to to come to that realization.
I think I always knew. I knew when I was a little kid,
but I was afraid, so afraid. And I was bullied tremendously
when I was in grade 7 and 8. And I carried that bullying with
me for years. And I actually, I, Justin's
story is my story and, and Justin became homophobic at, at
a certain part in his life. And, and that's definitely
something that I shared with him because I was so afraid.
All I ever heard about gay people was they were awful.
And, and it was horrible to be gay.
And so I, I, I tried everything that I possibly could not to be
gay. And it wasn't until after
college, university, that I was had the courage enough to to to
be able to be true to myself. Yeah, that's unfortunately a lot
of people can definitely relate to that.
Yeah, yeah, It's not, it's not, it's not something that I'm
proud of, right? But I think it's something that
that that needed to be addressed.
And, and again, I, I, I've been trying with the books to come
from a place of truth. And so we even have to be
truthful about the things that we're not necessarily so proud
of all. Right, just to pivot a little
bit. So Speaking of things, in the
novel, it was we're sticking with just in case.
So the let's talk about the monsters.
So the monsters quote, they function like queer guides for
the baby gaze in the closet. And I found the diversity of the
pairings of the monster and like they're queer that they're
helping coming out of the closet really interesting.
So some of the pairs got along, while others are polar opposite.
So I'm curious, how did you approach creating the monster
queer pairings? Like what was your thought
process for that? That's a good question, and I
don't know if I have a really good answer for that.
I think I think the monsters, really, after I had written the
first 12 pages of the book, the monsters started to tell me what
they wanted to do and what the pairings were going to be.
I think you're talking about the pairing between Marlin and Corey
specifically. And I didn't want the monsters
to be perfect. I wanted them to be flawed
individuals as well. And I, I don't think I'm giving
anything away by telling you that the the monsters were
actually human before they became closet monsters.
And the reason that they are closet monsters is they didn't
live their life in truth. And so they were destined to
become closet monsters and help those that don't have the
courage to come over to the closet or or need a little push
to come out of the closet. I Justin's closet monster, who
is a minotaur. I, I think one of the reasons
that he was a Minotaur is because I wanted something that
wasn't in pop culture. I wanted, I didn't want Dracula.
I didn't want the Frankenstein monster.
I wanted something that was original and original to the
piece And, and that, and that's where his creation came from.
I think my friends would probably tell you that I'm a
cross between Justin and the closet Monster.
I I it took me a long time to come out as I said, but when I
did I was out and ready to party.
I Justin's Closet Monster tends to be a little inappropriate and
if you talk to any of my friends you will you will find out that
my my sense of humour skews to be on the inappropriate side.
I love it. OK, so you also mentioned in the
introduction section that you are deliberate with your colour
choices when creating a scene. Is your process rooted in any
kind of colour theory? Again, a good question.
I don't know if it's. It probably is I I think it was
instinctual. I, I think I, I also is very,
been very cognizant of the environments that the, the, the
characters inhabit. So I also not only took into
consideration the colours, but also the patterns that, that,
that appear on Justin's wall, on the, on the priest's wall.
All of those patterns were very important to me.
If, if you look at Justin's room, it has vertical stripes,
which was supposed to represent a, a, a jail cell, right?
Because that's how he felt being locked in the closet.
So I, I, I just, I, I just wanted every character to have a
color story. And I, I don't know if I have a
lot of reason why I decided that, but I, I, I just wanted to
it to be distinct for the viewer When, when they, when, when they
looked at the, at the book. I think, I think one of the
things that maybe we should talk about is that I actually haven't
told you the premise of the book.
And would it be OK for me to tell you the premise of the
first book? Oh, please do, of course.
Yeah, so, so the premise of the book is just in case the, the
main character in my story wakes up in the middle of the night to
a rustling in his closet. He gets up to investigate and he
realized that there's that there's a monster in his closet.
And he comes to find out that the monster's sole purpose is to
help him come out of the closet. Now, throughout the book, you
actually realize that there's a Guild of monsters, and that
Guild of monsters is tasked to come to every LGBTQ person when
they need help to come out of the closet.
It's beautiful. Oh, thank you.
Back to the monsters in in the introduction, you also mentioned
that you had a love of like classic monsters.
You mentioned like Dracula earlier.
So how did you decide? I guess you kind of touched on
this a little bit, but how did you decide which of the classics
to incorporate? Because you have quite a few in
like the array of monsters. And how did you kind of like,
adapt the classic to fit the novel?
Yeah, well, I've loved Greek and Roman mythology and the
universal monster movies back in the 30s.
I think that was the 30s. And I wanted to represent every
classical monster because I I I had a connection to all those
monsters. I think one of one of my
grounding stories and one of the things that first got me excited
about monsters is is my brother. When when I was growing up, I
actually slept in the living room on what we called the magic
bed, which was a pull out couch. And because there were too many
kids for the house. And my brother came home one
night and it was really late and he snuck into the living room,
which was where I was sleeping and turned on a movie and the,
and so I think I was seven or eight years old.
And he turned on Frankenstein. And I watched from underneath
the covers the, the, the, the 1937 Frankenstein.
I think it's 37. I could be wrong.
I'm probably completely wrong. That's my mother's when my
mother was born. So it's probably wrong.
But my love of monsters started then because I was actually so
afraid. And when my brother went up to
go to bed, I fell asleep reluctantly, fearfully, and in
the middle of the night I heard something, looked up, and there
was the Frankenstein monster actually in the the doorway to
my kitchen. And I realized that there was no
way that I could actually get to my mother, right?
Because it's instinctually that's what I wanted to do.
So I hid under the covers and went and finally went back to
sleep, I guess. And the Frankenstein monster
never got me. But since then, I've always had
a love of monsters. And I, I, I think it started
then. And we'll talk about this later
when we talk about becoming Abel, because I think Abel, the
main character in that story is, is my version of the
Frankenstein monster, right? Because that monster for some
reason resonated with me more than any other character.
And I, I, I think it was because I empathized with him.
I, I understood and later when I became, when not when I became
gay because I was always gay, but later when I came to except
that I was gay, I realized that monsters have a connection to us
because like, like the werewolf, we, we are sometimes afraid of
that other part of ourselves, right?
And like the Frankenstein monster, we're afraid of how the
villages are the villagers or our family are going to react to
us and are, are, are they going to persecute us?
So I, I think that's why the book has monsters in it.
And I don't know if I answered your question because it became
really rambling. So how did you so how did you
decide which of the classical monsters to like incorporate
into the book and like, did you a modernize them in any way to
like fit the story? OK, I think I tried to hit on as
many classical monsters as I could.
There's a Cyclops in there who who I guess is modernized
because he doesn't look like the the Cyclops from Greek and Roman
mythology. He's actually my, based on my
husband Stacy. So he, he has Stacy's wardrobe
actually. And yeah, I, I, I love Dracula,
but I wanted to put a little bit of a spin on Dracula because he
wasn't he, I didn't want him to be the focus because he's such a
huge character, right? And so in my book, he actually
becomes Comic Relief. And he has a war with another
character in my book whose name is Helmet, who is a giant squid.
And it's kind of my homage. I don't know if you guys
remember if you're too young, but spy versus spy.
Yeah, Mad Magazine, spy versus spy.
So. So it's kind of my homage to
that. So yeah.
I'll have to bring that up to my dad.
He like, religiously reads those magazines, like still to this
day. And like, I always loved the spy
versus spy. Well, and they were brilliant.
They had no words and they could go everywhere.
Exactly. Yeah, that's so funny.
Which is what those segments in my book are between Stroker and
Helmet. Which are the characters names?
I I do love those too. That was probably one of my
favorite moments in the book, especially when like I don't
want to spoil it, but there there are moments in there that
I just I love when anyway. So which monster that you
created do you connect to the most?
Ha, well, there are two I I definitely connect to Justin's
closet monster because like I said, he's very inappropriate
and pushes Justin in ways that are outrageous and I definitely
have that side to me. But as I said, glance the
cyclops. He is based on my husband Stacy,
and the relationship between him and another character, Saul,
which is a werewolf is is really based on our story.
And there is a love scene where they're underneath a cherry
blossom tree, which is taken from Stacy and my life because
Stacy proposed to me underneath the cherry.
Sorry, proposed to me underneath the cherry blossom trees in New
York City. So yeah, there's lots of little
Easter eggs that my friends would get and, and not everybody
would get. So it's nice for me to be able
to talk about that with you guys.
And now your your, your viewers and your audience.
So we'll be able to pick up some of those, some of those Easter
eggs. Any other Easter eggs you want
to talk? About.
Oh my God. Well, in the new book there are
locations that come out in the book on photographs on the wall.
Like I said, it was so important for me to design environments
that fit the characters. So each of the pieces on the
wall, if you go through the book again, each of the pieces on the
wall are actually pieces that I created in different times in my
career. So there are pieces that I did
when I was a student and I tried to pair each of the art pieces
to the characters because I have done so many different styles.
I'm, I'm 54 years old. So I've, I've, I've, I've
recycled through a lot of, a lot of different styles over the
years. And it was, it was kind of nice
for me to revisit that when I, when I produced the book.
It it's kind of a portfolio of of my entire art career in in
one piece of art. That's really cool.
I love that so much. OK, Speaking of the new book, so
let's transition to Becoming Able.
So in the introduction to Becoming Able, you mention your
time spent as an artist in resident at Camp Firefly.
What is Camp Firefly and how did this experience give you a new
perspective on queerness? Yeah, so Camp Firefly is at a
camp for LGBTQ youth. I had the opportunity to be the
artist in residence. They asked me to come and speak,
give the keynote speech about my book and to introduce my book to
them and to talk about my experiences writing the book.
When I got there and met the campers, I was surprised to see
that there were way more trans and non binary campers than I
anticipated seeing. And when I was prepping for
this, I was saying to myself, I was trying to pump myself up and
saying that my life experience is going to be so meaningful for
these kids. And during the keynote speech, I
kept thinking to myself, I have been saying that my book is that
the monsters in my book go to every LGBTQ person when they
need the help to come out of the closet.
And I realized that that moment I had left trans people out.
And during my conversations with those campers, I realized that
it it was something that I wasn't comfortable omitting, and
I needed to rectify that. And I needed to get educated
enough to be able to tell a trans story.
And I, I, I, I love the fact that those that that experience
really was the catalyst for me to create becoming able.
OK, so the next question is kind of, I think you answered it
halfway. So Becoming Able tells the story
of Abigail, a character that was introduced in Just In Case and
the closet monster. Who is Abigail?
And then why was it important to tell the story?
So we got the background on how this book came to be.
So so Abigail is one of the monsters in that was introduced
in the first book and they are a rag doll.
They're made-up of different patterns.
As you could probably tell through my book.
I love patterns, right? And so this character was based
on a rag doll and I, I, I wouldn't say that they're based
on anybody I know in particular, but it, they're based on an
amalgamation of conversations that I had and interactions that
I had with two wonderful people that I met, a trans man and a
non binary person who after I wrote the first draft of my
book, reached out to them. They, they were originally
colleagues of my husband, Stacey, who worked at the 519,
which is an LGBT Community Center.
And so fearfully, I, I reached out to them and asked them if
they would read the first version of my book.
They did so and I was overwhelmed at their ability and
their willingness to tell their story to me and to help me make
becoming able as authentic as I can, as I could.
And originally they were just colleagues of my husband, Stacy.
And, and now after this experience and, and, and their
willingness to work with me, I really consider them my friends.
I love that media just really brings us all together and
encourages us to share. Our.
Stories and ourselves with other people.
Well, and, and I, I don't know, I, I guess they felt that my
project was worthy of their time and their effort and their,
their, their sharing their ability to share with me.
And I will be forever grateful for them for, for helping me to,
to create able when, when I started it, it was a two year
process for me to write the first version of the book.
And then I went back after getting their feedback and
worked another three years in order to, to get it to a state
where I felt it was true. And I, I am so grateful for
those people and so glad that they are in my life.
Yeah. And I love that you you
mentioned that that you did consult the trans and non binary
friends when you created becoming able.
And it it it, it lends to what you said earlier about being as
truthful as possible when telling this story.
I guess. How did you incorporate their
perspective into the novel when you were like doing that
process? Like when you gave them the
first draft, how did that go? Well, it's interesting because
the first draft was almost wordless.
And I think that you you could probably see that if you take a
look at the book carefully because there are wordless
sections. So they were the ones that gave
me the courage to be able to give Abigail Slash Abel a voice.
They made me confident enough to be able to tell a story about
their past, right? Because the the story that I
wrote was really based in the present and was really based on
that decision or that journey for Abigail to become able.
The first part what was about the present and the second part
is all about the past and and and what actually affected
Abigail and and her journey to to to become able.
Yeah, I guess what's different for those that haven't read it
when like comparing and contrasting just in case versus
becoming able. So like you're you're taking in
the first story, you're taking like a human and there's their
journey then life to kind of live their truth versus Abigail
slash Abel is a story of a closet monster.
So somebody in their quote, afterlife, learning how to live
in their truth, which I thought was really interesting.
When you read the books kind of back-to-back that you're not
only getting a different like queer experience, you're getting
a very different experience, period.
Because the protagonists are in very different phases of life
and afterlife, which I thought was really interesting.
Oh, cool. Thank you.
Yeah. So you gave a perfect segue into
my next question. I found it very interesting that
this book was a little different from Just in Case and the fact
that not every page had dialogue.
How did you approach this to make sure all the emotions and
thoughts were conveyed without the characters speaking?
And I think you nailed it. Thank you so much.
I think that was a challenge for me.
I think that telling a story without words is very difficult.
This was a COVID baby for me. This that this book and it was
intended to be a short sort of off trajectory of the of the
main books. It was to get me back to, to
allow me to dip my toe back into the just in case in the closet
monster world. And I, I think I just wanted to
try something different. I wanted to do something
different from the first book. And I think that the difference
between the books is huge. I think I've grown as a
storyteller. I think I've grown as an
illustrator and I think I just wanted there to be space.
I, I originally, when I wrote the first draft of the book,
like I said, was, was, was wordless.
I wanted I didn't feel like I was necessarily the person to
tell the story because I'm not a trans person, so I wanted my
characters to have the ability to tell the story themselves.
I'm so cognizant that this is not my story to tell.
I think it's really important and that I have the opportunity
to be a voice for people that may not have the voice
themselves. And I just want to be a, a good
advocate because I think what's happening with trans people now
is something that happened with gay people 10 years ago, right?
I think that they're, that they're where we were.
And it's important for us to to to be advocates and to be
allies. Yeah, I think with the pages
where there's no dialogue, it's powerful because you're giving
Abel a voice. By not giving them dialogue,
because you're not really telling them, even though it's
your character. Yeah, you're letting their
emotions come across instead of being like, telling them how
they're feeling, if that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah. No, you got it.
You got it. To piggyback off that, one of my
favorite non dialogue scenes or just plain scenes in Becoming
Able is when Abigail does the haircut and then looks into the
mirror and sees Abel staring back.
Like to me, haircuts in general are very powerful when they're
done in in media. There was like a huge one in the
League of their own series that's like it's transformative
to characters and I really love that moment because you get
Abigail seeing Abel and who they could be for the very first
time. That's my favorite scene.
Do you have any favorite scenes or moments from Becoming Abel
that is in the book? Yes, but I'm afraid to tell it
because I don't actually want to spoil the the reveal for the
readers. I think, I think there's a lot
of moments, especially through that transition.
But I think it's really important.
I will say this, I think it's really important to know that
Abigail is not alone through that transition.
Not that the other character, who is her partner, Bethany, is
there. It's because she's surrounded by
love, but in a different way and in a way that I think readers
need to know about. I think it's a the way that that
character is surrounded by a love that unfortunately I can't
name. But I think when people read the
book they will understand what I mean.
Is that OK? Oh yeah.
Yeah, that's great. Because I think that unnamed
character is the star of becoming able.
I think that they and they only came about because of the
conversations that I was able to have with the colleagues of or
my friends because they gave me the courage to see because I had
to adjust it right. The first part of the book was
all non verbal and then I had to figure out a way to get the
verbal part in it. And this character is the is the
way that I was was able to bring the verbal parts of becoming
able into the story. You put so much thought into
both of these books, and it's just really cool to see the
world that you built while reading it.
And I'm just curious in general, is there anything else coming
from this world in the future? Yes, yes, I am trying to build a
universe. I am trying to create something
like Star Wars, right? Where there are characters and
there is a direct sequel to the Just in case in the Closet
Monster first book, Hope, which will be entitled to faith and
where the first book talked about me coming out and talked
about the relationship with my dad.
The second book is actually again about my truth and about
me personally, about my struggles with mental illness
and how Justin's trajectory or Justin's life really parallels
my own and his own struggles with how to come to terms.
Because I think there were things that happened to me after
I came out of the closet that I still had to deal with, right?
I think all of your audience would probably agree with me
that being in the closet changes you.
And there are things that you have to adjust in your life
after you come out, right? So after you come out, not
everything is just going to be rosy and happy, right?
You've been lying to yourself for years.
You have been lying to your family and your friends for
years. Or at least I was, right?
So, yeah, yeah. And I think the new book deals
with those emotions, deals with that journey because I, I think
we talk a lot about what it's like to come out of the closet,
but we don't necessarily talk about what it's like after that
step, right. And the challenges that happen
after that step. And yeah, I, I, I'm writing
these books because I want to help people like me that, that
need to hear those stories that, that are possibly not out there
for them to hear. Definitely, I know Theora brings
us up on the podcast like the the coming out stories are so
great and they are definitely needed, but so many of these
coming out stories make it seem like that's the only hurdle you
have and that everything is fine afterwards.
But what are what is the journey after coming out and what is
life like not as a 20 something or like the normal story ish.
So I love and I also, OK, I'm sorry.
I just love this new one. I'm excited to read it because I
also love that you're touching on mental health, something that
I'm very passionate about as well that people need to just
talk about it. And so I'm excited, if you can't
tell. Oh, that's awesome.
That's awesome. I have to warn you, I'm not very
fast, right? So it might be another 5 or 6
years before we actually get to that point.
But just so you know, I've written the first draft of the
script. I'm pretty happy with it.
I think you're going to go back and work a little more on it and
try and tighten it up a little bit.
But this one is going to be a behemoth, right?
I think it's going to be bigger than the The first book was
definitely bigger than the second book.
Funny that I mentioned this. The second book was supposed to
be a short, right? I was supposed to tell that
story in maybe 50 pages and, and, and it ended up being as as
big as the first book clocking in, I think a little under 200
pages, right. So I think my husband, Stacy, I
think the first book that I wrote, I, I, I kept looking at
the page count in, it was a struggle to, to, to, to, to get
to the stage where I think I was ready to, to, to, to publish it.
And now I, I just seem to be rambling.
I think I, I need my editor now because I, I seem to have a lot
to say, which I think is a good thing, right?
Because you'd rather have too much than not enough.
No, definitely. You know, we want to hear
everything you have to say. I mean, there's people who write
like so long books. So you put everything, put your
heart and soul into it like I know you do in every book.
And I thank you, no matter how long it takes, we will be there
ready to read it. That's awesome.
Thank you so much for that. So that was the end of our
questions for today, but do you have any final words for the
listeners at home? Anything you want to share with
everyone before we wrap up? Yeah, I don't think only artists
or graphic novelists need to tell their stories.
I think everybody needs an opportunity to tell their story.
I think one of the things that was so exciting for me was when
I did the first book, I, I, I did a Kickstarter campaign in
order to fund it and in order for me to garner an audience, I
began writing blogs to tell people about my personal
stories. You can actually go on my
website, markjulianillustration.com to
see my blogs and I learnt so much about myself by doing those
blogs. I think that you cannot know
yourself totally until you sit down and write about yourself.
My therapist has been, my therapist has been telling me
that for years. And I, I did this selfishly
because I wanted people to get to know me in order to support
me in my projects. But I think the one thing that I
learnt about myself is you don't know yourself until you're right
about yourself. So give yourself a gift and, and
even if you don't show it to anybody, it's, it's so
important. And I think I'm a better person
for that experience. Thank you again for taking the
time to talk with us today. We really appreciate it and
definitely love getting to know you and your your the whole
world better. Where can our listeners connect
with you on the Internet? Yeah, so you can buy my book and
like I said, check out my blogs at markjulianillustration.com.
So if you guys do feel moved to check out my website, I am going
to have a discount code on my website for your listeners and
it'll be big energy, no big gay energy.
So it'll be big gay energy and you guys will get 10% off
anything in my store. Oh yeah, that's awesome.
Yes, So everyone. Listening definitely do that.
Check out Mark's books and until next time, hydrate for lesbian
Jesus. And get up all over the place.
Bye. And with that, we've been Big
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