Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy.
I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora.
Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of
queer media. Representation matters, and
we're. Here to talk about it.
Cheers, queers. What's on the big agenda today,
Theora? Today we are unfortunately
revisiting an old topic that is near and dear to our hearts and
probably yours too, which is Cancel Your Queers.
The ongoing epidemic in queer media where queer characters
queer focus plot line shows are being cancelled mostly in
America. Colon, Why are we still here?
So you want the background of no no woo, this is not good, but
it's OK. That's why there was a question
mark Fiora. There's no this isn't a bummer
episode. We promise there'll be some
like, joy at the end. If you want a refresher, just go
revisit our other episode. We did this in 2022 because
there is a whole slaughtering of queer beauty that happened that
we were personally victimized by.
And so we're back because we've all been personally victimized
again. The story of our lives, anyway.
Joining us today is our friend Chloe.
Welcome to the podcast, Chloe. Hi.
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Would you like to introduce our audience to you a little bit?
Basically, what show brought you to us?
Sure. I am here because of Our Flag
Means Death, which is my favorite show of all time and
something that really brought me into fandom and queer media.
And as a lot of you probably know, it was cancelled after its
second season. It was only going to be three
seasons, so we just needed one more.
And it's been a very beloved, very successful show.
But it was cancelled and that we're still fighting for it.
We're still upset about it all the fandom is still here, but
the show has changed my life and rewired my brain chemistry, so
I'm excited to talk about it. Never lose the fight, yes.
No, never. We're not going anywhere.
All right, so to begin this episode, we have a few like
statistics of where we are with queer media in TV.
So disclaimer, we're only going to give like a brief overview,
not our full length discussion that we did last time.
We're like in depth into every area.
This is just a brief overview of the general state of
representation. There is a lot more to this
topic, but we're just focusing on this part right now.
So basically the state of representation for the LGBTQ
plus community is in a decline, which is not good.
I don't think anybody wants that, no.
And the year our Lord lesbian Jesus 2024 not great.
So yeah, the stats are just for 20.
We're looking at 2024 as a whole.
That's. What?
Well, I think it's like 2023 to 2024 season.
Yeah, yes. So due to cancellations, 36% of
LGBTQ plus characters on TV will not return for the next season.
And that number is insane. Yeah.
Like when I saw that, I'm like, what's left?
Like, I know there's 2/3. Oh, not even left.
But like, at the same time, that's a huge amount of
representation that's leaving our screens.
And 36% of people are now not going to be able to see
themselves. Yeah, and which is weird 'cause
when we did the 2022 episode, like one of the highlights was
that, like, representation overall is up, which is a good
thing, but I guess when you're like axing a bunch of shows,
like everyone's going too. But yeah, that's.
A lot. I know we'll talk more about our
flag being stuff, but that show is so gay that it was probably
carrying a lot of that representation too.
So just in that one show getting cancelled, there was like, it
was a huge dunt. It's a queer representation.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
And there's there's definitely a couple of shows that are very
queer and definitely carry all of like a lot of numbers in it.
So it's a shame that we're losing this media.
LGBTQ inclusion on broadcast TV is at a six year low, with only
8.6% of Siri's regular characters being LGBTQ, down 2%
from the previous year. That's still not a great figure,
even at its at its high. 10%, although that great, no?
And I'm trying to figure out is like 2% of 8.6% or is it like 2%
of like it used to be 10? Percent sounds like it's down,
down 2% from the previous year. It sounds like it was at like
10.6 and now we're at 8 point. Yeah, that's insane.
No, none, none of these statistics are great that I'm
great to read out like you're. Not doing that well.
Like we had a. Light at the end of the.
Tunnel with our last episode of we are having more
representation in general. So losing these shows, it's
terrible, but there's still more out there.
No, we're just losing things now.
So there is a light at the end of the tunnel, it's just not
what you think. Yes.
It's. Not what you think it's not.
You might not be ready for it, or if you are, but in the
comments if you understand what I'm alluding to.
OK, so I also have the decline in broadcast cable and streaming
platforms. So theor, did you read these
statistics? No.
OK. So without reading them, OK, do
you think that there's the most decline in broadcast cable or
streaming and the space for Chloe's?
I would. Oh yeah.
Do you want to guess Chloe? I would guess streaming since
that industry is in such crisis right now.
Right. And there's just more content
coming out of it too. So I would imagine higher
numbers, higher axings leads to. More queer casualties.
Honestly that was a great guess, but it's wrong.
Oh weird. So the biggest decline in
representation is from broadcast TV.
So that was gonna be networks like a BCCBSNBC, those channels.
OK. Which channels that are trying
to appeal to like a very broad audience?
Or just doing reality TV shows now, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I believe The CW would.
I don't. I think The CW is considered
broadcast and like they're axing everything because they're
trying to change their demographic.
And I don't know is cable a broadcast TV is in just like
where are like what the heck is going on?
So broadcast TV in 2023 to 2024 had 8% LGBTQ plus characters.
The previous year it was 10.4. So there is a 23.1% decrease in
representation if that makes sense.
Cable TV had a 6.5 decrease. So cable TV is winning.
They did not decrease as much and they are currently at 11.6%
of characters of their characters is LGBTQ streaming
platforms. To be fair, the both of you were
not off. They had a. 16.6% decrease, but
streaming platforms also have the highest amount of LGBTQ plus
characters. They are currently at 12.1%, but
the previous year was 14.5%. OK.
And then these figures, is it just like the show included an
LGBTQ character or it's like they were a main character?
I think they included. I think it's like all
representation. I can double check while editing
and put it in here. I'm just curious.
That's wrong. But yeah, I I feel like any
representation is good. I know main characters are like
that's what we wanna see more. No, I know.
I'm just wondering like so like the numbers on average like 10%
of characters in something are LGBTQ is what I'm hearing from
this. Yeah, I know it's something.
Go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say, I,
I know it's really hard to answer this question because
it's not like an apples to apples comparison, but is there
any way to compare this to just cancellations in general?
Like, are queer media being like disproportionately targeted in
cancellations? Because it sure feels like it.
Yeah, that's that was literally the theme of our 2022 episode
where we're trying to figure out like, are we being targeted?
And the answer was like, no, it was just like it just because we
had such a small number of like characters to begin with, the
impact was felt greater for basically because we were just
had less. And then they axed everything.
Yeah, but we didn't go into that.
Year yeah, I don't know the exact numbers, but I knew I do
know that it's like either 37 or 40 something total shows have
gotten cancelled in the past year and it was like below 20
was like the LGBTQ. Yeah, I guess what it was last
time too. I'm around.
That I know that'll just, a lot of things are being cancelled
and the entertainment industry is kind of a mess right now.
And yeah, sort of having a lot of like, come to Jesus moments.
So I don't know that queer media has been getting
disproportionately targeted. But I also don't know that it's
not because I know we're also facing this kind of cultural
backlash to progressivism and queerness and everything like
that right now. So I I don't think that could be
ruled out. That's definitely.
True because. There is a big population
especially, so we right now we're focusing on media in the
United States basically. So and in the United States, we
are not doing great with representation for the LGTQ
community in general. A lot of rights are being taken
away and there has been a lot of backlash for companies
supporting the LGTQ community in general.
So there is a lot more hesitance to produce things that are for
this community, and that's unfortunately an impact of these
things. I don't know exactly if this has
an impact on productions. I don't think anyone can really
know unless they're in these productions because there's a
lot of stuff going on behind the scenes.
But it's definitely can't be ruled out.
You're right. OK, so Chloe, we noticed that
you are a neuroscience PhD researcher and writer.
What pact does beloved media cancellations have on the mental
health of the LGBTQ audience? Very bad.
That is the short answer, but the the details of it is, is
that these are real stressors. And I to be clear, I do not do
research on this specific topic like the effects of
representation and rejection and things like that.
But I do do research on stress and I know that experiencing
stress in the form of projection, in the form of
finding feeling like there's not a place for you and sort of who
you are is not OK because people who look like you on screen are
not staying up there. That, that that is an actual
stressor. And an accumulation of stressors
leads to genuine like depression, anxiety, mental
health symptoms. And in addition to that, like
from the perspective of the brain, like our brain doesn't
differentiate between social connections to characters on a
screen or in a book and like real life connections, like we
are storytelling beings and how we connect with other people and
learn new things is like through storytelling.
And so those like emotional connections that we form with
those characters in queer media or any media is really real.
And so when those shows that we have an emotional connection to
in the context of queer media, if that queer connection is, is
fueling that when those are cancelled, that's like a, a
real, actual grief and a real actual loss of like a friendship
or a relationship. Like it feels the same to our
brains and our bodies. And I know a lot of people will
be like, oh, it's just a show and kind of like, you know, get
over it. Like it's not that big of a
deal. But but again, like from our
brains perspective, it's, it's really not that different than
if a friend's move far away or passed away or something like
that. Like there is a loss there that
that actually hurts. So it it's real, it's very real.
That's. So true, like I know growing up
TV was my one constant in life because everything else was so
unsure. So it's just like, it's like
having a friend that's always there for you and you know that
you can always hang out with them and then having that being
taken away from you, it hurts so much it.
Really does and, and like people you really identify with and
feel camaraderie with feel like you have shared experiences in
your life, especially if it's like a queer story that you're
like, we have this in common to to lose that really, really
impacts you and, and like these have actual effects on the
brain. Like to feel like they're is a
place for you and that you have like the kind of right to be
represented and kind of be seen for who you are reflected in
media is is really like manifest at A at a neurological level.
And and then when those that kind of feeling of like trust
and trust that who you are out there in the world is OK and
people who have similar stories as you.
When that's taken away, it like it actually activates a stress
response and a grief that that has real psychological
consequences. So it's as our flag means death
says, it's about belonging to something and that that's so
important not just in like kind of entertainment value, but but
real psychological well-being. This brings me back at least to
last spring, when basically everyone was having a rough time
on the podcast and we had to take a break.
And yeah, it's this like external stuff going on for some
of us. There was a big cancellation
that happened at the same time. So Fiora, do you wanna talk
about the cancellation that impacted you the most?
Oh sure, I was only calling go first, but you set me up so
nicely for that. All right, so.
Chloe set set us up so nicely for our job.
Chloe. Come on, they're doing it all
right. So I'll talk about the one that
impacted me the most. So it was the cancellation of A
League of Their Own, the series. It was cancelled not once but
twice just for fun. So basically when it aired, it
was 8 episodes through Amazon Prime and then it did fairly
well. But when it was cancelled or
when it like was in its renewal period was when the writers
actors strike was going on, which lasted quite a bit of
time. And so we're like waiting and
waiting, waiting for renewal. The second season did get green
lit. It was months later, which the
longer you wait for that renewal announcement, the more anxiety
builds. And so it was Greenland in April
of 2023 and it was announced that it would be a shortened and
final season. Something was already 8
episodes. This is going to get shortened
to four to wrap up all these plot lines, which is insane
first of all. But it was like, OK, we'll get
closure. Cause the biggest problem I have
with all these cancellations is you never get closure with the
story. And it's like, what's the point?
So all right, so we're like, yay, we're getting something.
We're getting closer four months after that.
So in August of 2023, Amazon scrapped the entire project.
And according to like, one of the Variety which broke the
story to quote, according to sources, the show was another
casualty of Hollywood's ongoing strike.
With Hollywood's writers and actors still on strike, there
was no hope of production beginnings on Season 2 anytime
soon. They would likely mean the
second season would not debut before 2025, when Season 1 aired
in 2022. Which like, seems like such a
cop out because then you got things like House of Dragon and
it's like five years in between seasons.
So like, which is not great either 'cause then you're like
what was? This show about you have to
like. Refresh yourself with this
complicated fantasy world. But anyway but.
Also the Last of Us yellow jackets sex lies.
All of them have the same timelines, right?
So this was such bullshit, first of all.
So yeah, that that one, that one hurt me the most.
And well, we have another section about like, why?
Like what the show meant to you. So this is an intro to the
things that called it caused us personal agreements.
And so like to lose it not once but twice.
This is So what hurt a lot. It was.
Insane. But also I feel like a four
episode season again, I'll take anything, but it was such a
flapper face, especially for like the creators.
Like it's an ensemble show in general.
Like yeah, there's like kind of mains but there's a lot of
storylines and to have to wrap it up in 4 episodes, they better
have given them like a movie for each episode to make up for it.
A lot of what you described in that experience, like it's so
true for the Our Flag Means Death cancellation as well.
Like even when season 2 was airing before it finished, we
were campaigning for it to be renewed and had a petition going
that's still up there. I think it has like 85,000
signatures or something like that.
And there were signs pointing to renewal, and then the creator,
David Jenkins came on and broke the bad news that it was
cancelled. And obviously we were fighting
for it. But the studio Max gave a lot of
bullshit reasons for its cancellation that the numbers
weren't there, which they definitely were in terms of the
popularity of the show and the viewership compared to shows
that were renewed their numbers. And then they came out and we're
like, oh, actually we were just concerned about violence in the
show and we weren't sure how to market that.
And and we're all like you guys do like Game of Thrones and
House of the Dragon, like this is like a pirate comedy.
Like what are you talking about? So we're still fighting for the
show, but then we, I also feel like we went through like a
second cancellation because the after about a month from the
original cancellation, David Jenkins came back on social
media and said that this, this really is the end of the road,
end of the road of the show for now.
And so that really felt like second cancellation, 'cause he
came in to tell us to stand down, 'cause and we were
spending like a lot of money on campaigns.
We put a billboard up in Times Square.
We flew a banner plane over Warner Brothers headquarters.
So we haven't totally given up hope 'cause we're maybe he was
just kind of look, trying to look out for us.
Like saying in the current landscape of the industry,
there's not a path forward right now, so stop spending your
money. But we're still hoping that if
Max gets sold or something like that, because Warner Brothers
Discovery is doing terrible right now, that there might be
new life for the show. But between the half ass
explanations and the double whammy of cancellations, it
feels really similar to what you just described with A League of
Their Own. Yeah, Yeah, I have.
I was trying to figure out which show impacted me the most.
But like both of the shows that you've brought up have been like
such a huge it like they meant so much to fans in general.
Like they're both very great explanations of why we're here
today talking about this because.
It's. Insane that these shows with
such with so much representation and so many people who love it.
I mean that both casts. Are.
Filled with, well, queer characters but also great
actors. Like with.
Big games. So I remember when The League of
Their Own came out and we were like, if this gets cancelled,
there's no hope for any show. Well, as soon as it was like 4
episodes and that's it, we were like bullshit.
What does this mean for every other show?
Because we've been saying if this doesn't get renewed, what
hope do we have? So at least for me, I was like,
bullshit. My hope just disappeared.
Yeah. And it's insane, truly.
Yeah, I still. Feel that way 'cause like, what
made it so? But and the reason I kept saying
that is because it's not just that.
Like it's a show I loved and like there's a queer character,
the whole cat. Like there are so many queer
characters and it's like our flag means death where it's not
just to like the ship that you're shipping.
It's like there's multiple queer characters and multiple
different kinds of representation.
Just diversity in general in the cast and the cat.
It's a cast that works well together.
It's a story that's well thought out, like it was well put
together. So like, to me, those shows
getting cancelled tells me they're like, it's going to be
really hard for similar shows with a diverse queer cast.
To. Get multiple seasons because
they don't seem to do well. The things that seem to survive
is like the token queer character mixed in the ensemble.
Yeah, I completely agree with that.
And, and that's exactly what you just described is one of the
reasons that Our flag Means Death stood out to me so much
and meant so much to me and why it's cancellation hurt so much
because it wasn't queer representation in this otherwise
CIS hat normative storyline. It was like the whole show just
radiated queerness in every dimension of it.
Not just the relationships, but the gender expression, the the,
the costumes, the set, just like everything was such, it felt so
gay. And to lose that, like to have
something that really feels like this is for us, this is ours,
and then to have that cancelled was just a punch in the gut.
And also, they were funny, like, they were both comedies, Like,
they're so similar, like, and we don't get a lot of queer
comedies. It's usually satisfied, Yeah.
I get the big it's a stalwa. Oh my gosh, The comedies keep
getting cansies. Yeah, and it's so sad.
I I'm gonna talk about a show really quickly because we have
Amazon present represented, Max represented.
You can't talk about cancellations without talking
about Netflix. Oh man, we trashed on them last
time though. You're not gonna give them a
break? No, don't give them a break.
No, because there is a show that came out right before the
strikes or during the strikes. So everything.
I think it was like the month. But like.
The writers strike was going on, the actor, it was right before
the actor strike. Forgot there's two different
strikes going on. So the show is called Glamorous
and I think it's one of the queerest shows that's ever been
on Netflix because I'm pretty sure there were more queer
characters than straight cisgender ones.
And I think that can be said about all the shows we've talked
about, which is even sadder because all the shows that made
the biggest impact of course for us is going to be the ones with
more queer characters then straight cisgender ones.
And for the first season of Our Flag Means Death.
Sorry, quick interjection. Taika Waititi, who's one of the
stars and also executive producer of the show, joked once
in an interview that our flag means death was like, spot the
hetero. Yeah, I love it.
Those are the best shows I know. Not enough of them, No.
And sorry, Caitlin, continue. No.
You're totally fine. That is how this podcast goes.
You think? Of something just say it.
But yeah, this the show glamorous.
I know I remember loving this show and I wouldn't shut up to
theora about it. And I made theora watch it with
me so that it makes it even more fun when you have someone to
watch it with you. And that's the beauty of this
podcast in general as well and why I think people love reaction
videos because it's like you're watching it with somebody.
So I will always cherish that time where Theora and her wife
watched the pilot with me and we just pointed out every single
lens size Slayer had. But it was.
Such a fun time and there was so much representation and the
ending was just beautiful with the main character finding their
gender representation, gender identity and I'll get into it
later but I was really hoping to see more with that.
Another show that I finally, finally just watched and I'm so
mad and I've been telling Dior I'm so mad.
I didn't watch it before. Is girls five ever now?
It's only one of the characters are queer, but they're they have
more characters that come in for their storylines.
But it it's so funny again, I love the comedies.
We need more queer comedy, which I guess I'm just going to put
something in because go watch these themes if you want a queer
comedy. I love these themes.
Awesome. I found out from love series
through. Vico, who plays Jim with Flag Me
and stuff. Oh, it's so funny.
It's I think about it all the time.
It's a great, great show and I hope they get to do more.
But again, if we put in the studio's hands, I'm really
worried. Yeah, anyway.
But yeah, Girls, Girls 5 Eva. I also recommend people go watch
'cause I didn't, I didn't see anything about it.
And I between the name and I don't even know if I read the
description, but I just kept passing over 'cause I thought it
was something different. And then Theor's like, this is
the best show not ever because obviously.
Obviously our like main stuff is the best show ever but.
Theor is like, I love this so much, I think you're going to
love it. And it still took me two months
to watch it. So it's just like also the
advertising. And that is something that
studios need to do better because there are shows that
they advertise the hell out of, but then other shows just get
like soft launched. I'm like, how is anybody
supposed to find it? Yeah, I mean again, a lady.
Of their own was a different story, because like, they did
have a lot of they. Did advertise, like I remember
in San Francisco where I live, there was like at the bus stops,
they had posters. I think they had the actors go
to like I met them in LA Dodgers, like they went to a
baseball game and they did, they had money for advertising.
So it's a little bit different. But most shows, yeah, you're
right. They they're just like it drops.
That's it. It was a moment in time kind of
thing. Try to find it.
Yeah, I think it actually might have been your podcast about
queer cancellations back in 2022, where I really learned
that about how studios will kind of set shows up for failure by
not advertising them. And I think this happened with
Our Flag Means Death too, which didn't fail, by the way.
Like despite the lack of advertising, it did really well.
But they won't sufficiently advertise a show and then be
like, other people aren't really interested in it enough, so they
cancel it. So it's like they kind of have
this predetermined agenda for what makes it or not.
And they'll also drop the ball on like merch for queer shows.
At least this happened with Our Flag Means Death.
Like Max didn't have any merch for it, any good merch.
They had like a couple pieces. But the fandom in Our Flag Means
Death has like made amazing art T-shirt stuff like that that
everyone's like drops a lot of money for.
And many times something has come up where we've been like if
Max had actually made this shirt or whatever, like they could
have made so much money. So with advertising and merchant
stuff like they're just not investing in these shows.
Yeah, it's wild. The most wild thing to me is
when they make the thing like this is movies.
I think we we may have talked about this, but I can't
remember. They'll like make the whole
thing and then be like Nah and just not even show it and it's
like. We're.
Talking about this platform like grease.
Rise of the Pink Ladies, Yeah. That was another sad one.
Luckily, we still do have access.
To it and then they Oh yeah we talked about that too in the
cancel your cruise 2022 Willow we just covered Willow where
they like we're just like we're taking it completely off of our
streaming platform and now that you don't have the tangible like
physical copy you can buy anymore once it's gone it's gone
and now like that entire audience is screwed out of
watching their show and then you cannot have a new audience that
might find it, which is the whole point of TV.
And we talked about this in our last episode about this.
I won't like berate the dead horse here, but like, I think
the bingeing model has to go because you can't.
The point of TV is to like, it's, it's more character growth
focused than anything else. And the characters are meant to
build and stumble. And you're supposed to have rest
episodes where you're they're just growing.
And like now they're basically just like a miniseries.
It's like a movie where it's like, go, go, go, go, go.
And I remember we've watched stuff together and you're like,
why this episode is so slow? And like, it's the anxiety
because you're used to it being fast, fast, fast because you're
shortened with how many episodes you get.
And so it's like, it's not what TV was ever meant to be.
And when you just dump it all, you lose your ability to
effectively advertise. You lose the ability to, like,
gain a bigger, like, build an audience.
Because part of what makes TV so successful in the modern world
is like, people talking about it on social media.
And so like, when things are releasing weekly, people talk
about it more because you're in anticipation of the next
episode. And then people find it and
they're like, what is this show? And that's how you like build an
audience. But when you like dump the whole
thing, people are excited about it the day they get it, and then
like all that excitement just wanes and you don't capture the
new people. So I think binging sets shows up
for failure more than anything else.
There is people. Doing this well, but stay tuned
to the end to find out who's doing well with this model, not
the binging model. It's not a binging model because
I think it doesn't work. I did see a tweet where people
were saying how studios are just relying on fans to do all the
marketing for them now because people are so willingly like
trying to get the word out, but it's because we have to.
Yeah. 'Cause if not, then like so many
people are trying to figure out how to game the system with
like, just keep it on and in the background, keep watching it
like you don't even have to pay attention.
But if you watch it now, watch it then like you have to do it
within this certain period and it's just, it's basically a game
at this point. And then it's still not
guaranteed to work. And it's it's just very hard for
everybody. To add on to that, a problem
that I think is part of it, not specific to queer media, but
just kind of the streaming or entertainment industry in
general, is that there's a focus on metrics in that are then fed
into like predictive models or analytical models about how well
a show is going to perform, what the revenue is going to be
relative to the cost, things like that.
And I don't know the details of how these work, but that mode of
judging success or failure of a show seems very short sighted
and only like means something for a period of a month or a
couple of weeks or something like that and doesn't have this
long term vision. That also depends on intangibles
like word of mouth, advertising people, hype growing for the
show, but also like maintaining trust of your consumer base and
not violating that trust by not finishing the stories.
And and that sort of long term benefit is not something that I
think models can really predict that well.
As far as I know, like for Max and our flag means death, like
maybe they had some model that was like this show is worth
cancelling because of this like success to expense ratio or
whatever. But now a huge like swath of
consumers or like will have nothing to do with Max anymore.
And I'm one of them. I'm like, you totally betrayed
us on this. And I'm so mad that you
cancelled the show that like, I'm out and that's gonna hurt
them like years down the road. And I don't think studios are
really factoring that in. Yeah, I agree.
And there's the individual studio like you're saying in
your example, but I think there's a broader implication of
that too. And we might have talked about
this in the other episode. Then I keep referencing go
listen to that where basically like it also like people have
trauma behavior now because of all these cancellations where I
know a bunch of people who are like, I won't even start a show
unless it's complete because if they're I don't want to get
invested and then they cancel it and I'm left on red forever.
Like why would I waste my time? I'm just going to, I'll rewatch
things I already love and just if you want to make a new show,
complete it, then I'll go watch it.
All So then. Again, you're not getting that
will impact your numbers because you won't get the number till
the end because consumers are like, I'm not even going to
bother watching this at all. Totally.
I just being for myself. I experienced that, especially
after this cancellation and like in the outline you sent for the
show, 1 question was what TV shows, if any, are you watching
now or looking forward to? And I'm like none.
Like I got too hurt. Like, I don't, I don't want to
invest in something until I know it's going to be complete and
I'm not going to get hurt again. And that's totally valid.
OK, but let's talk about happy things.
So OK, go, let's go back to our our shows that got cancelled.
That meant something to us. So Chloe, you touched on this a
little bit, but what, what did our flag meant?
Or what does our flag means death mean to you?
Like, why was the cancellation so impactful?
Oh my gosh. I mean, I like I said before, I
think 1 of it, one of the big things was that it was just this
beautifully, beautifully queer story that wasn't just queer
characters on the sidelines or a side plot or in the foreground
as the main characters, but in an otherwise sort of like
normative cultural vibe of the plot.
Like just everything about the show was so queer.
But I think what really made it stand out as a queer show, but
also just a show in general, is that somehow simultaneously it's
like the gayest show you've ever seen, but it's also not this
niche show that just has a target queer audience.
Like from my experience with queer media in the past, shows
make queerness. Appealing to a wide audience by
kind of like putting it off to the side or sort of minimizing
it or kind of like having an otherwise kind of sysette feel
to it. Even if there is the same sex
couple, for instance. But Our Flag Means Death does
not do that. They have a show that does not
compromise at all on queerness and is appealing to like a
really wide audience. And I think the fact that it
does that just shows how queer stories are human stories about
belonging and about finding yourself and finding people that
you connect with in a world that you otherwise don't fit into.
And I think that's a really universal experience that
everyone can relate to, even if they're not queer.
So by kind of having this queer story in this universal human
theme, really like invites people in who are not queer.
And an example of this I think is like the character Jim who is
non binary and is referred to with they them pronouns in the
show. But their pronouns, their gender
identity is never directly referenced or stated.
Neither is anybody's sexuality like gay, queer, non binary,
like. None of these words are ever
used in the show. They only established that Jim
is not a mermaid. Jim is not a mermaid.
Yes, this is this is the explicitly stated thing that
that we know about yes, I love that now now there's a ton of
like people in the fandom who are genderqueer, gender non
conforming have like a shirt or something and it's like not a
fucking mermaid. I love it, but the the show does
that in a way that it's like, so sometimes I think when it's a,
we're not using the term gay or queer or non binary or whatever,
it can kind of feel like a sort of we're trying to make it more
palatable, like a don't say a gay kind of way or that sort of
thing. Back from, I don't know, the 90s
or the 2000s or whatever that was like, I'm OK with, you know,
being gay, just don't like shove it in my face sort of thing.
But if life means death, the fact that it doesn't like use
those terms is not that don't say gay thing at all.
It's it's another way that like kind of invites people in.
So for the example of Jim as a character, if it was kind of
explicitly set up that this character is non binary.
My cat is batting something off the desk that Jim is non binary
like. And they kind of go through a
little bit of that journey in the show.
Then people who are not questioning their gender or who
can't really relate to that experience might kind of tune
out and be like, OK, well that's not really for me.
But because the show doesn't do that, Like everybody, regardless
of who they are, is like invited to connect with Jim as a
character. And similarly with the same sex
relationships in the show, because they're not presented as
something different than people who aren't queer, don't have
same sex attraction themselves. Like are still invited to see
themselves in these characters and connect with these
characters. So that's one of the things I
find so special about this show and how it manages to be so
uncompromisingly queer, but in a way that invites everybody into
that space. And not presenting it as like,
this is only for queer people. And if you're not queer, like
you can't connect with this because since it touches on
those universal themes, people can see like, oh, this is this
queer story is like part of the human story.
And we can all connect with the the struggles and the joys and
everything that these characters experience.
And I just haven't encountered another show that's that's
pulled that off. Yeah, and and I like the I like
what you said, that this is like a human story and it's like part
of the human experience because that's why one of the reasons I
love A League of Their Own so much, it's it's A and this it it
has this in common with our flag means death, is that they're
both pulling from things that actually happened in history.
So you have the grounding of these people existed.
This is the fictionalization of these people, but these people
were real. So if we're telling the right
story, remember they were real. So it also like grounds it and
makes it less fantastical. If you're like, this is based on
real people. And so for A League of Their
own, for me, the reason I can like I.
Have. Connected with this story since
I was a kid and the movie came out, the Penny Marshall movie in
1992 because this was a real thing that happened where during
in America during World War 2 where men went off to fight the
war, men got drafted. There was a labor shortage.
And so people who stepped up to fill the role of the labor
shortages were women, black people, people who weren't
allowed in those white CIS men's spaces now took one for the
country or whatever. And we're filling all these jobs
to keep everything going. And one of the areas was
entertainment, which at the time was baseball.
Like baseball is the national pastime of America.
It's a big deal. Like my family is very connected
by baseball. We were one of those families
where, like, that was the the glue that held everybody
together. And I was very breezed.
Yeah, I was very breezed environment and so it means a
lot. And so to and as a kid when I
grew up, like I knew so much about baseball.
We have our family has their team and that was the religion
and kind of thing. And but it was men and I I never
felt like I was like, I want to play baseball too.
But then to learn as I got older, oh, you're a woman.
You can't was like one of the most crushing experiences of my
life. So to see this movie where it's
like, oh, women at one point in time lived my dream of playing
professional baseball like that was the first time in my entire
life I ever felt represented in media was watching that and
being like, this really happened too, like this was actually a
possibility. I.
Wasn't bored on the. Sky.
Yeah, I, I totally hear that. I think the the historical
context of our flight means death, I think does a lot of
that too, even. And it is like, it's a little
bit different because the show is not very historically
accurate. It's like very intentionally,
deliberately anachronistic to comedic or storytelling effect.
But it is still very inspired by this historical story of Steve
Bonnett, the gentleman pirate who left his comfortable land
owning life to go be a pirate for God knows why, connected
with the infamous Blackbeard. And Blackbeard was like, this
guy's a terrible pirate. Like, just come on my ship and
hang out and read your books. And, and so then the David
Jenkins, like, I think his wife saw this on his ex-wife saw this
on a Wikipedia page and talk to him about it.
And they were like, oh, there's a love story here and, and
turned it into that. And you know, we don't know the,
the real history, but it had just opened people's minds.
Like there's an actual historical biographer of Steve
Bonnett who watched the show and said it actually kind of changed
his thought about the historical Steve Bonnett and was like, Oh,
this is I that actually makes a lot of sense.
Is like maybe maybe he and Blackbeard were were in a
relationship. So I just think that's so cool.
Like and, and that's like the power of representation, right,
Where people like and they. Weren't just shipmates, they.
Weren't just shipmates exactly. Yeah, like that really infamous
historians looking back on, like, these two women who never
married and were buried next to each other and only had a house
with one bed. And they're like, oh, they were
like such good friends. They're like sisters.
Come on, guys. Yeah.
So just to like present that story and, and have people be
like, Oh yeah, like maybe maybe there were gay people throughout
history the whole time. And the, the historical context
of our flag means death works really well for telling this
type of story too in the setting of piracy.
Because I'm, I don't want to sort of romanticize piracy kind
of unnecessarily, but it, it was a place where people who
otherwise didn't fit into society went and formed their
own society and their own like rules of operating in their own
culture and even had basically same sex marriages between
sailors who are predominantly men, though there were some
women involved too, but that they entered into an arrangement
of like, you know, if I die at sea, like my partner gets all my
stuff and things like that. So it it was historically like
very queer and and the show really leans into that as like
part of the queer experience is kind of not fitting into society
and sort of needing to make your own way.
And there's a universal appeal of piracy even for not queer
people and the kind of adventure and lawlessness of it.
And then I think making that show explicitly, that setting
explicitly queer in the show also invites people in who might
not have otherwise seen queerness in it.
And then been like, Oh yeah, this is maybe this was how
things were. There was there was this deep
queerness here. And and now there's this thing
that I relate to that is queer. And now I feel more connected to
queerness in a way I didn't before.
So with Glamorous, I think I really like that it was just
showing queer people working in an office because it's a queer,
the bold type. If you've seen the bold type, I
I love that show as well. It's one of my favorites, but
this one makes it even queer. And I love it because I just
kind of want to work in an office setting like this where
you can just be queer and like not have to hide it.
Because I feel like when you go into an office setting, you have
to hide your entire personality. And obviously being queer is not
your entire personality, but I feel like society makes you feel
like you have to hide like any bit of it.
And also being part of an office that you're not the only queer
person because I've never been part of an office where there
was more than one queer person. Cuz like I'm always like the
token queer person. Like if anyone brings up any
like gay things or same sex relationships, everyone just
looks at you. It's like, what do you have to
say? Or you'll look like I had a
conversation with my boss and she's like, oh, you'll like this
one. So this doctor and her wife, I'm
like, I mean, yes, I do love it. I love when I hear about.
Queer people but like. I don't want that reputation
that, like, I only pay attention if it has to do with queer
people. So it's just nice to be able to
see an office that's so queer. But it's it's not the focus.
Like, yeah, there is all that going on.
But they are able to do like these creative jobs as well and
like bring new ideas and just have it widely accepted instead
of being like, oh, you need to hide who you are.
And that's why I really loved it.
And I am sad that it got cancelled.
But I'm also having a hard time getting as attached to shows.
I don't know if it's because shows keep getting cancelled and
I'm like, OK, you can love a show, but you're not allowed to
get so attached that you this is your lifeline anymore.
Because there there was shows like that.
I was just like, I'm still not over Teenage Bounty Hunters
getting cancelled on Netflix. I'll never be over that one.
But I also think with the podcast and like we jump shows
so much that I'm so used to just jumping into new fandoms that I
think it's like actually a skill at this point to like not get
attached, Which is sad in the same sense though, because like
I like to get attached to shows. The last show I got attached to
was High School Musical the Musical The series, but that
also got cancelled. But technically it just ended
because it had Four Seasons and it wrapped up like it ended.
Yeah, I know people are upset about it, but I think it had a
nice ending. It's not like A League of their
Own. I mean at least our fight music
did not end on a cliffhanger cuz that could have been really bad.
Yeah, it it would have been absolutely devastating.
Season 1 ended on a very angsty, heart wrenching cliffhanger.
And I watched, I came to the fandom late.
I watched season 1 after it had all come out, after we had
gotten news that season 2 was coming.
So I have like unending respect for the fans who had to live
through the period of waiting with that cliffhanger because as
much as this show has meant to me, if it had ended after season
1, I would have wished I hadn't watched it because it would have
hurt too much. And that saying like it's better
to have loved and lost then never have loved at all.
Like if it ended at season one, that would not would have not
been true. I would have just been like, I
wish I would have never seen that because it's just unending
heartbreak. Thankfully, we did get season 2
and it did wrap up in a way that is OK.
But that was also not just fortuitous.
That was very intentional on the creator David Jenkins part,
because he knew this might happen.
And I think it's it's frustrating that he had to
factor that in when deciding how to end Season 2.
I'm so grateful he did so we can at least kind of have some
resolution. But this happened to him with
his first show, People of Earth, that was cancelled after two
seasons. I think it was after two seasons
on like an absolute cliffhanger. And and that's just intolerable.
And it's especially like if it's a plot line where you're like,
oh, I really want to know what happened.
That's one thing. But with our Flag Means death
when it's like this central relationship and like, do they
find each other again? Do they are they able to kind of
like work through their traumas and be together?
Like that's a little that runs a little deeper emotionally than
just kind of the logistics of what happens.
So I'm so grateful that Season 2 did end on a place where like we
can be OK, but but I'm not we're not done fighting for her
obvious too more obviously. I mean, there's so.
Much more to happen like cuz they did leave it on a place
where yes it technically wrapped up but there it opens so many
more stories as well. Yeah, well, there's.
I want to see Marjang. I want to see Marjang.
Yes too. She's yes the best.
And I want to see Marjang. I want to know how like the
Ricky plot line plays out, but also I just want more Ed
instead. Because David Jenkins too, said
he wanted to do a show, a love story that doesn't end when the
main couple gets together because that's only the
beginning of a relationship. And he wanted the opportunity to
explore what happens after that part.
And with Ed and Steed, there's so much to explore there because
they both have their own traumas and insecurities that have made
them struggle so much in life and love.
And to go through the process of kind of like working through
that together is, would be beautiful and showing that like
in a, in a good relationship, you can be loved for who you
are. Like you can heal these traumas.
And I, and I think it, it would really show that like healthy
relationships are healing. It's not like you can't be in a
healthy relationship until you heal.
Like the process of being loved is healing.
And we need those relationships. And I really wanted to see that
play out on an emotional level. Yeah.
And it's just like such a fun, entertaining show.
And I wanted more of that, that comedy and that wackiness, too.
One more season. That's all we wanted.
It was only ever intended to be three seasons.
Chesley was. Really only intended to be three
seasons, yeah. It was always just from the.
Beginning from the very. Beginning.
You're committed. This far.
I know it's I will never get over it.
Yeah, from the very beginning, like it was pitched.
This is a three season show. Like it's not a show that we're
going to kind of like drag out, which I respect too, because
sometimes shows kind of like jump the shark a little bit.
Grey's. Anatomy.
Hey Fiara, I just got here. No, it needs to let it go.
Yeah. Honestly, I'll talk about it in
a little bit, but like with the way they're handling the queer
characters at this point, maybe yes.
I mean, it's been 21 seasons now, so yes, all right.
Caitlin, in your show, what would you have liked to see
happen if Like Glamorous continued?
I think just more of them figuring their shit out in the
office and then also just Marco and their gender identity story
and. I.
I don't want to give anything away in case people want to
watch it because like it does wrap up in a way that is nice.
Like it's very it almost made me cry honestly, but it's very
heart warming in a sense. I mean, obviously there is what
you would love to see more, but it's very happy at the end.
I will say that. So it's not like someone worse
I'll. Never sit over to you this.
Face butt hole the. Actual.
Worse. Like just being left on red
forever was the end of Warrior Dad.
I was like, yeah, anyway. Yeah, that's valid for a.
League of their own spoiler I would like to see Carsons
divorce her reunion. It's great because also left
unread forever. But the big thing I really
wanted to see from that show is just more of the historical
stuff because again, it was an ensemble and you had two
multiple characters from Cuba, which was historically accurate.
And at one point, I think it was in 1947, they.
The. League did spring training in
Cuba, so I would love to have seen the Peaches go to Cuba.
And then you get the Cuban characters can actually like
explore their background and you get to see like what Cuba looked
like in 1947 and maybe Jackie Robinson cameo.
Like it would have been really cool to have.
Like, I just love the historical element of it.
It's. Very fun to like see that world
and see it through queer lenses. And the show were deviated from.
The movie is you explicitly got to see what was going on with
the black community because you don't see that.
There's like a hot second of it. And they had to tone it down in
the movie because racism. But like in the show, they
actually like show you what's going on through multiple
characters. And so to have that also would
have been really interesting. So I just.
Feel unread for the possibilities that they had with
that diverse cast to like explore plot lines that they
movie could never have even addressed if it wanted to.
So yeah. But who knows?
We'll see what happens in the future.
But throwing this question out to everybody we've talked about
what these studios are doing wrong, how they're causing
trauma. So what can these studios do
better for the LGBTQ like representation for the
community? Like if you had the chance to be
like yo Max, here's what I would say to do.
Chloe, what do you think? Finish our stories, listen to
us, like listen to what people actually want and what people
are saying. And also capitalize on us.
Like, you know, if you're motivated by capitalism, like
we, we can do that too. Like give us good merch and give
us good representation and finish our stories and we'll
keep throwing money at you. So, like, we're seriously, we
will. Give money to you.
We. Will like it frustrates me so
much with Max because a lot of the criticism against them is
that they're like just motivated by like this kind of hard line
capitalism, which, you know, I think there's truth to that.
And you know, these are ultimately money making
businesses, But like I was talking about before, I think
they're things like trust in your consumer base needs to be
more a part of that and kind of a long term vision.
But also, even if you're just motivated by like the financial
bottom line, like you're not even doing that well, like
you're not even doing a good job at capitalism.
Like you could make so much more money off of us if you gave us
what we wanted. But.
More serious community in general is just so loyal.
Like if you really target the queer community in a good way,
you will have lifelog, yeah. Yeah.
Really alienating a whole. I.
Know that I've totally felt that way if another studio picks up
our flag mean stuff which as a kind of contextual side note it
all the sort of evidence points to that David Jenkins was
marketing it to like Apple TV and Netflix and Prime and there
was interest but Max was not or Warner Brothers.
I'm I'm never sure it's if it's the parent company or the sub
company decided not to sell. But if another studio picks it
up, like that studio will have my undying loyalty even when
that show is done. Like I will just be so grateful
and and also have trust in them that they care about these
stories. So yeah, I think we are a very
loyal fan base because we do want really good representation.
So if if someone gives that, like we will stay there.
But I also think that studios just need to like recognize the
humanity and universal appeal of queer stories like I was talking
about before, and not kind of treat them as this really niche
market. And also not treat them as
something that you need to make palatable to non queer people
just by having it as a side storyline or like an otherwise
kind of mainstream show. Like to look at something like
Our Flag Means Death or A League of Their Own and kind of see
what what made those shows so appealing and what made them so
popular. And I think some of it was like
the uncompromising queerness together with the like
relatableness of it and the widely appealing storyline and,
and characters and ensemble and historical context and
everything like that. So to actually like, look at
what makes these stories successful.
And that queerness isn't just this kind of like a little niche
over here that only some people are interested in.
There's there's universal appeal there.
Very, very well said. I agree with all of that,
Caitlin. Do you want to give your advice
before I go off on a rant? Yes.
Because I know yours is good. You.
I got some advice. Yeah.
So I know that the studios are at fault here and are in
control, but I wish productions would just film 2 endings if
they're not going to just make it like kind of wrapped up.
If they really want to have a cliffhanger, make sure that you
have something to like put in instead in case you get
cancelled. Because I feel like the
cliffhangers it's what's making everything hurt even more.
Cuz I just, I mean thank God fan fiction exists in general but
it'd be nice to see it on the screen and not be like what the
hell is gonna happen? Like this is the worst ending.
I would love that too. I wish we didn't have to do that
though, because sometimes those cliffhangers is really good
storytelling and it's like, in a perfect world, people wouldn't
have to compromise on the storytelling for fear of not
getting renewed. Or I wish it was a requirement
for the studios to give them like an hour wrap up, like come
back just for yeah, like I know it would be like really quick,
terrible story. I mean maybe they can figure out
how to story tell it well, but just something to wrap it up.
Yeah, like some clause in the contract of the show that like
if you cancel this show, it's like you have to give like some
kind of severance package where like you at least give a final
episode or something to wrap it up, honestly.
I would take an outline of what was supposed to happen.
Just give us an outline and then the fan think I mean.
Bringing it back to money Caitlin, either way, you could
make money off of that because if it gets renewed, if it gets
renewed, be like here, like in the intro, be like here's the
alternate ending and it brings up hype again and like you can
get viewers and make money off of that.
And if it doesn't, you do the same thing, be like, it's
cancelled, but here's like our last hurrah and then everybody
gets closure. And then like the studio makes a
bit of money off the last alternate ending release or
whatever. So like, either way, like money
is to be. There's a good incentive for
that, I feel from a, you know, Mr. Yeah.
And. While they're at it, while
they're at it, make DVDs with bonus commentary and bloopers
and all this stuff that we would spend so much money on.
Man, everyone would pay for Bluebirds.
That was the Patreon. OK, but I think there's a real
world example of how studios in America can do better.
I think you guys can learn from Thailand.
So let's talk about Thailand for a minute, because they have a
renaissance of queer media happening right now that's
insane and amazing. So they have recently been
producing a remarkable amount of queer content.
And so when I mean queer content, I don't just mean in
America, where like 10% of the characters are queer.
No, these are productions where, like the leads are queer and
then there's multiple queer characters in the show.
So it's not tokenism. It's like everything is queer
about it, which is I bet my favorite kind of content.
What's different about the way they do television is it's
primarily like a single season story.
So it's kind of like the American equivalent would be
like the mini series. So if you look at something like
The Queen's Gambit, which was wildly successful, but it was
marketed as a once it's over, it's over.
Tell your audience who's traumatized that like, hey, the
whole story is going to get told.
There is no being left unread. The whole thing will happen.
And I feel like as a viewer, at least for me, I feel like I can
relax and enjoy the show because when you're not in that model,
you said it yourself, Chloe earlier, like once the show
starts airing, the fans are already like, we have to
campaign. There's like an extra stress to
watching the show where you, I feel like you can't enjoy it
like you normally would because you're stressed out about like
numbers, viewership, engagement. All of a sudden it isn't our job
to be worried about. We're not worried about because
we're afraid we're going to lose the show.
Whereas like in Thailand, it's like you're going to get the
whole show. There's nothing to freak out
about. It's happening like here it is
like you're going to get the whole thing, no being left
unread, no cancellation. You're going to get the whole
story. And what I also love about their
model is that they broadcast it. I think it's broadcasting
mostly, not streaming, although some of them put it on like
Netflix and things like that. But like it's broadcast and then
what they do is they take their episodes and they put it on
YouTube. So it's universally like
accessible to so many different people versus in the American
model. One of the problems we have
going on right now, there are too many streamers and in order
to access content from a streamer, you have to pay money
to the individual streamer. So if like things are happening
on a streaming platform, I'm, I can't access because money's
short right now, I will never see that clear content.
I, I can't help support it because I can't, I there's a
financial barrier versus like putting it all on YouTube,
Everyone can see it and you can see the numbers right then and
there, like how well this thing is doing and like they're super
proud of it. They're like, look, this got a
million views in one day. And it's like, OK, cool.
And because they did one show, which I'm sure our viewers are
aware of called Gap, the series. This thing was so freaking
popular internationally that 50 projects are greenlit because of
this one show, and they have independent studios that are
cropping up to do this. And it's really their model is
completely different and really fascinating.
And it's just that's how you do queer content.
Like give us the whole story, not just one queer character.
End it so we're not left on Red Go.
To. Thailand, American studios learn
how they're doing it like it's smart.
I'm here for that. I'm not sad.
I can get attached to it and there's nothing wrong with it.
And boy, has Theora gotten attached.
I mean, there's so many things. Watch Gap and then go watch
Blank the series. Yeah, so.
Anyway, so Speaking of things to look forward, so that was our
advice. What are you looking forward to
in the world of queer media? Chloe's or anything?
I wish there was more like I said, I I think I've gotten gun
shy about getting invested in something I I will put it out
there manifesting. I am looking forward to season 3
of our flag means that we have not given up maybe a movie, some
kind of resolution. I really want that.
But for an actual answer, I I have really just engaged with
more media that the cast and crew and creators of the show
have done. For instance, Madeline Sammy,
who is Archie in Season 2 of Our Flag Mean Stuff, is in a really
gay show called Deadlock that was just renewed for Season 2.
So I'm excited for that. So yeah, I am excited for some
things. That's a good show.
How is I'm sorry, how is character not queer in that
show? Which?
Character Madeline I don't. Know so confession I haven't
watched it yet because we've been talking about I've no it's
OK. I've been waiting to see if
there was going to be continuation and resolution.
So I really want to have seen some clips and like this looks
absolutely delightful. And I've been hearing about how
how unashamedly gay it is. So I'm like, I definitely need
to watch this but I haven't fully watched it yet because OK.
Well, I recommend you do it and then come back and talk to me
about it because Theor's wife and I are on the same boat with
that. It makes no sense.
OK, so I just have a list of shows that are coming out that
we're aware of. So Theor and I are, these are
the American shows. These are the American shows,
American shows, Sex lives, The College Girls season 3.
I mean this. There's a caveat with this.
Pico's Renee Rapp is leaving the show.
I know I. Think we're not?
OK, I'm not happy about that. Pico Ortiz is in that show too,
aren't they? Yes.
Yeah, Miko, Miko as at the time that we talked to them did not
know if they were in Season 3 or not.
So. So we don't.
Know if Pico's coming back in season 3 cuz Miko wasn't sure.
I wasn't would love it. Would love it.
Yeah. The.
Women's but I. Because of the changes
happening, I don't know if it's going to go past season 3, but
we're looking forward to season 3 because Renee Rapp and Midori
Francis will definitely be in at least a few episodes.
Agreed. Also looking forward to Yellow
Jacket season 3 because that that show is a wild time as
well. And then basically the best
example of fighting for your show is also coming back.
Wynonna Earp has a movie coming out at the end of 2024 sometime.
We don't actually know a date yet I think.
On Toby. On Toby.
So thank you, Toby. Toby, how about Toby?
Save our flag means death please, right?
Please, Toby. Is really clearing it up all
over the place, like Toby is trying their best.
Ghost season 4 is coming. It's a little queer, a little
bit. It's a comedy, so I will take
what I can get. Grey's Anatomy is coming back
because of course it is. I don't know if I'm excited.
I'm like, kind of, I want to see what's going on.
But Midori Francis is leaving that show as well, and I'm very
sad about it because then they set her character up with
someone else at the last episode of last season.
I'm like, how you going to do that and then have her leave?
I don't anyway. I'm pissed off about it's Grey's
Anatomy. That.
That whole show is like messing up the queer characters right
now and I'm not OK with it. Anyway, Exo Kitty season 2 is
also coming out. We covered the first season and
people seem to like it and I am holding out hope that this one
is I mean, it's going to be queer.
We have other queer characters. It's.
Going to be queer. There's multiple queer
characters in that show, yes. I'm excited for it though.
And then also when I was researching queer media that was
coming out, apparently Agatha Darkhold Diaries is supposed to
be queer as well. Yeah.
Do you know who's in it? Joe Luck.
Yeah, Joe Luck from Heartstopper, because I'm
excited about Heartstopper season 3, which is gonna be
great. But yeah, Joe, third Joe, in an
interview confirmed that his character is going to be
explicitly queer. So finally something on Disney
Plus that's explicitly queer. So that's a win.
It's. Willow, which they.
Forgot their. I mean, it's gone, but yeah.
Yeah, it's. Marvel too, that's explicitly
queer. So a lot of wins for that.
Other things I'm excited about. So the last season of What We Do
in the Shadows, which is another like ensemble that's like
explicitly queer and just unabashedly whatever.
That's great. If you haven't seen that show,
it's so funny, go watch that show.
And then The Last of Us Season 2, whenever that finally comes
out, like this will be the Super queer season based off that
video game. So there are things.
It's just like they take forever to come.
Yeah. I, I'm excited about some of
those too. I, I shouldn't say I, I'm not
excited about anything, but I, I do have to admit, I feel like
our flag means death has kind of ruined me a little bit in a very
good way for queer media. Because now my standards are
really high for what queer representation can be.
And I feel like I'm not satisfied anymore with just like
little crumbs of a queer character over here or over
there. Like I want a show that just has
queerness imbued in the whole thing.
I. Listen, I'm with you and
Thailand has ruined me because the whole thing is clear.
And just to Thailand. Not a Thailand.
I'm so excited for everything coming out of Thailand right
now. There's too many things.
It's just like, how can we watch all of them?
I'm so, so excited. And maybe listeners at home, by
the time you get this, we'll know what Pluto is.
Yes, we're very excited for Pluto, but the pieces that we're
getting are very, very confusing because there's twins, there's
mistaken identity, there's a blind person.
Yeah. And then there's apparently
Satan. And what's going on with the?
Show I need to know and then. Also, I'm very excited for the
last case. I don't even know it's getting
made right. Is it?
I don't. Know I don't know we haven't
heard anything about it I. Really do get made because it's
a cross between Grey's Anatomy, CSI, Law and Order and what was
the 4th 1:00. No.
Those three things, no. I remember there was like a
fourth, oh, I printed a liars. Oh, yeah, yeah, OK.
Which like with a bunch of queer people in it like that.
I want that show so badly. It's It sounds so messy.
I love messy drama that doesn't have to do with like the
relationship. Like I love external weirdness.
I. Want both.
I want both because I'm greedy I.
Want to have to make another murder board?
I had to do this for one of the Thai shows.
Because. The relationships were in a show
messy. It's it's great those.
Are never ready for that show, never ready, never ready.
Just go on the journey anyway. So any final words about the
cancel your career stuff? Hopefully we don't have to come
back and do this again. But let's be real.
Yeah, let's be. Real.
Yeah, it's it's such this sort of weird dichotomy in queer
media where on one hand these shows are getting cancelled and
not given their time and space, but at the same time, the queer
shows that we are getting, to the extent that we're getting
them, feel like they're really changing the landscape of queer
media. Like they're not just they're
more well-rounded stories. They're not just about like
queer trauma or again, this kind of niche experience of
queerness. Like there, there's so much more
richness and depth to them when we do get the queer shows.
So if we can just get more of them and keep more of them, I
mean, the the possibilities for storytelling and exploring that
richness and depth is just so much.
There's so much potential there. Well said.
Everything you have said is so well spoken.
Chloe, it was so great having you on here today.
Like thank you for sharing your perspective on everything well.
Thank you for saying that, and thank you for just giving me an
opportunity to come and nerd out about the show that changed my
life. That's what we're here for and
everyone's listening like if you wanna come shout about queer
media with us, come join our Discord.
The link is in the description. We love talking to everybody and
there is so many queer media lovers in there that you'll
always have someone to talk to. Also, you can join our Patreon
where we have reaction videos to everything full length of stuff
we're not allowed to put on YouTube because of copyright
reasons. It's it's a great time and we
just love connecting with people and shouting about crew media
because there's so much to shout about.
Yeah. Bad things, but a lot of good
things to shout about too, yeah. Yeah, so hopefully we will not
be back for a third time to discuss this topic.
Fingers crossed. Do your merits to lesbian Jesus
and until next time, hydrate for lesbian Jesus.
And get up all over the place. Bye.
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