Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy.
I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora.
Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of
queer media. Representation matters.
And we're here to talk about it. Cheers queers.
We are back with another super fun interview today.
Today we are talking to the fabulous Holly Stars about her
debut mystery novel, Murder in the Dressing Room.
Welcome to the podcast, Holly. Thank you.
Thank you for having me on the podcast.
Well, we're super good to talk to you.
This is our first. We've talked about many books,
interviewed many authors, our first mystery, murder mystery
book. So we're pointed about this.
When we got the e-mail, I think I messaged Theora immediately
and was like, hey, Theora, yes. Yes, finally.
OK, So for the listeners at home that don't know murder in the
dressing room, that is why we're here.
So could you let the listeners at home know who may not have
read the book, tell them about the novel?
Yes, so Murder in the Dressing Room is a drag focused murder
mystery set in the Soho district of London.
And our main character, Misty Devine, finds her drag mother
poisoned backstage in her dressing room with a poisoned
chocolate. And she doesn't think that the
police are looking in the right places.
And because she's watched a lot of Criminal Minds, she believes
that she can solve the case. And so she sets about to catch
the killer. And that's the in a nutshell.
So if you haven't read it, what are you waiting for, right?
Really. Exactly.
Read it now. What inspired you to write this
novel? Well, I've been trying to write
crime fiction for a long time. For, gosh, 20 years or
something. I've been writing books and
sending them and trying to get them published.
And I was having no joy and I gave up and I channelled my
writing enthusiasm into writing stand up comedy and started
performing instead. And that led to somebody asking
me to write a play called Death Drop, which was a drag murder
mystery that ran on the West End and then did a tour of the UK
and Ireland. And after that I thought, well
I'll try again. And so I contacted a literary
agent and said my show's closing in a couple of weeks, do you
want to come and see it? And she said yes, she came to
see it and she enjoyed it. So I sent her the last book that
I had written. And she was like, this isn't
quite right for me, but if you write anything else, let me
know. So I went away and thought about
it. And I thought a drag murder
mystery, since that's I'd written for stage, a murder
mystery where the characters weren't drag, but they were
portrayed by drag artists. I thought actually a murder
mystery set in the world of drag could be really fun.
So I just, you know, sat down one day and wrote out the title
and the first few chapters and sent it over to her and, and she
loved it and she signed me up. And then I finished the book.
We edited it and, and that was the start of the process.
But yeah, it was a strange sort of, you know, I gave up the
writing of books to start writing comedy, and then the
writing of the comedy read to write in the book.
So it was a strange circle. It's like when you stop looking
for something, that's when it comes to you, right?
Exactly. It's weird, isn't it, how that
happens. So yeah, I got there in the end.
Not how I expected and. Now we have murder in the
dressing. Room, which is great room, yeah.
All right, so when when sitting down to write Murder in the
Dressing Room, did any of your life experiences influence how
you wrote the novel or any ideas that came about in the novel
themselves? I suppose so, I suppose, well,
obviously there's the drag element of it.
It's a world that I know and I'm involved with now for for a few
years. And, and so some of the language
certainly that's used amongst the drag performers and some of
the interactions, I hope a little bit reflective of, of the
types of interactions that I've had with with drag performers
throughout my career. And then I guess my desire to
see more rounded representation of drag artists in media was
important to me. And a lot of times, I think in
particularly in crime fiction, there are other writers writing
drag murder mysteries. It's not the first one.
There's the amazing Kitty Murphy who writes the Dublin drag
mysteries. So it's not the first one.
So I'm not, you know, breaking ground with this.
But what I wanted to do was show that drag artists are more than
the sequin and sparkle that you see for 50 minutes during a
cabaret set. But outside of that, that they
have full lives with relationships and, you know,
friendships and there is a sense of community between them that's
deeper than perhaps what you would realize if you only
experienced drag from going to see a show or from watching it
on the television. And so that really was, was my
one of my main goals was to, to show that these drag characters
have real lives. Too often I think in crime
fiction, especially on television crime fiction, the
drag artists are the doorkeepers or the victims or the best
friends. And we don't get to see much of
who they are outside of their sparkle.
And So what I wanted was to to to portray sort of a real life
where the artistry and their queerness is not the central
focus of the story. And so, you know, the murder is
not related to the identities or the sexualities or the genders
of the characters. The investigation is not
impacted by that at all. Joe or Misty out of drug.
Misty is called Joe when Joe was non binary.
Joe's non binariness is not a central part of the story, it's
just who they are throughout the story.
And that, that's was really important to me.
I love that so much. Like I love that you're talking
about the representation of the drag community because that, I
mean, that's why our podcast is here.
It's to advocate for better representation in the media
because so much work still needs to be done.
We've come a long way, but they're still, especially within
the overall community, different areas that definitely need more
representation. So thank you for adding to that.
What would you like to see for like representation in the
future? I'd like to see all the various
types of drag fully represented to the same level.
At the moment we know that the sys male drag Queens, the ones
who are often platformed the most frequently and the most
prominently and the amazing drag kings are left behind by the
mainstream media representation of drag.
And so I think as it's especially important to be
ensuring that the kings and the king community are included in
in in more of a programming going going forward.
I would love that. I would love to see a drag race
style show just for the kings. You know that on on mainstream
television that's getting millions of views that get some
old tons of followers so that so that we can be equally
platformed. At the moment it feels like one
part of the community is being lifted above the above the rest.
I mean we have 50,000 baking type shows, we can have more
than like they come up with a new one every.
Day. Like, how do you think they
change one little? Yeah, anyway, that's that's a
whole different topic. There's room for everybody.
There is room for everybody. So.
So, yeah, I guess that's what I'd like to see is just, you
know, when you come to a, I don't know if it's if it's the
same in the States, but if you come to to a cabaret in in
London, even then the the representation is not always
balanced, but, but oftentimes you will see a lineup that has
kings, Queens, performers that don't identify as either and, or
as something else. And, and, and I think that's
amazing. That's the best type of drag
show for me. They're the most creative,
they're the most exciting and then the most inclusive.
And and if that could be replicated somehow for
international television platforms, I think that would be
lovely, don't you? Yeah, definitely.
We want it all. Yes.
But forgetting some in your novel.
So in the novel, our main character Misty describes drag
as a form of freedom. Why did you choose to describe
drag in such a powerful way? Because, well, there's there's 2
answers to to that. The first is that for Misty and
Joe, as as one singular human, Joe is very anxious.
Very nervous throughout the book, finds the investigation
part talking to people very difficult and then suddenly puts
on the costume, puts on the wig, puts on the glamour and feels
like they can do anything. And so for Joe Misty makes them
feel like freedom. That's that was the the main
thing. And then there is a freedom to
drag. There's a freedom to to drag.
You can do and be whoever you want.
And you can get up on that stage.
You get booked, you know, at a cabaret club, you get up on that
stage, you've got 15 minutes. You do whatever you want,
whatever song you want, whatever costume you want, you dress
however you want. And for 15 minutes, that's yours
and it's nobody else's. And that's, I think the, the
freedom of, of drag and, and I don't think that there should be
any prescribed way of doing drag.
And no one should be telling you that's right and that's wrong
when you're doing this like, you know, it's, it's a personal
creative choice. I mean, that's important.
Yeah, that's definitely, that's a good way of framing it.
It's empowering and a creative outlet, like you said, in many
different ways. And I to go back to what you're
talking about, what representation in the various
forms of drag and that the people in drag.
I thought you did a really good job of diversifying your cast.
You know, the cast in the book. And so when you when it came to
creating those performers, like the the people in the in the
cabaret and and Misty's workplace, how did you go about
like creating those characters? Did you give a lot of depth to
them? Like how did you like approach
each and everyone when you really?
Yeah, I wanted them to feel real and I wanted to showcase all
those, well, as many as I could within the number of characters
that I had. I wanted to showcase the variety
of drag that we see in the UK drag scene and that is kings,
Queens, non binary performers, stand up comedians, dancers, lip
sinkers, Misty's a singer. You know, everybody can,
everyone has their own skill. Some people amazingly can do
everything. And then they go on Drag Race,
which is amazing. And they do all the millions of
challenges that they're expected to do on there.
So I, I just wanted to show, you know, there's so much talent in
the world of drag. And so I really thought
carefully about what each of those characters could do.
What was their skill? What was their performance like?
And then who were they? What was their personality like?
Because just like everybody else, everybody's different.
Some people are tricky, some people are chatty, some people
are easy to get along with, some people are nightmares.
So it was just, yeah, to to really show that there's a
breadth to drag that that that people don't always see.
That's, I mean, it's, it's great.
I love this book so much like the again, the representation.
That's why we're here and it means so much.
I hope that everyone reading it, whether they are part of the dry
community or not, they feel closer to it.
I hope so. And I hope that what people get
out of it is that I, you know, I've, I've tried not to look at
the reviews because I'm like, it's already been printed.
There's nothing I can do. These reviews not helpful to me
at this stage. Can't make any changes.
But I have seen a few and I've seen a couple where they've
marked me down a point or something for, for the book not
being camp enough. And and that's exactly what I
was try. They've missed the point
entirely if they're thinking that, because that is what I was
trying to challenge. We are not just camp spectacles
for your entertainment, but we are real people who are going
through a real creative and personal process to deliver that
work to you. And that's what I, well, that's
what I hope people get out of, of reading it is, is, is that.
Yeah, it definitely wasn't campy at all.
It was, it felt very real, like you were saying like all that.
That's what blew me away. Like the characters felt very
real. There's a lot of depth to all of
them. And it just, it felt like a real
scenario. Like unfortunately there was a
murder but like and like thievery happening but like.
The. People the setting like there is
a realness to it that isn't often there like and and to have
campiness is OK, but like not everything needs to be campy
like you're saying so it was you know well like I.
Made it as camp as I could, I think, while keeping it a real
crime novel. You know, I didn't want to write
a drag book. I wanted to write a crime novel
set in the world of drag. And and that that I think is,
you know, that's a they're two distinct things.
It's not, it's not the same. So, so yeah, that's what that's
really what I was aiming for. And, and I hope they do feel a
little bit real, but I did you know, it is camp.
A drag queen poisoned backstage with a with a box of chocolates
wrapped in silk. Like I mean what?
What else could I have done? There's nothing Garland for us
too. Like, come on.
Burglar and Judy Garland is involved.
I mean, it's just couldn't be any camper, I don't think.
This is when people need to write their own books.
That. OK, so to quote the novel, the
police were already controversial in the drag
community. How did you approach writing a
murder mystery centered in a marginalized community?
Well, I think that obviously there are historical problems
with the policing of queer people, particularly in, in, in
everywhere in the world, in in the UK especially as recently as
the 90's, the Royal Vauxhall Tavern was being raided by
police wearing rubber gloves, afraid to touch people.
I mean, ridiculous things within our, you know, living memory.
So, so I, I was aware that, that there is a history of, of queer
people and, and lots of other people not trusting the, the,
the police. And so that was I think part of
what I wanted to touch on, but to touch on quite lightly.
So the character of DI Davies, who is the police officer
assigned to investigate the murder, he isn't ever outright
homophobic or queer phobic or, you know, he, he, he isn't that.
I think what he is, is a representation of the ignorance
that exists within our sort of layers of government and law
enforcement and, and, and, and he just simply doesn't
understand it. He's just got no experience of
it and he does not understand what he's dealing with when he
comes into this drag club. He doesn't know how to call
them, how to gender them. He doesn't know anything at all
about the world that they exist in.
It is entirely new to him. And I think that is, is, is
something that that can be said of many people.
It is a world that not a lot of people know, but when you see it
happening in real life and or when you read about it in the
book, it feels shocking that he wouldn't know how to behave
better or more sensitively in this environment.
And so that was my intention with him was not to create a
character that was critical of the police and calling them a
homophobic institution because I think they've done lots of work
since to to improve the way that they they communicate with the
LGBTQ plus community. But but that that's ignorance in
society does still obviously exist.
His Sergeant who is working alongside him, Detective
Sergeant Hughes is much better. And throughout the book, we can
see that she has a better understanding of the queer
community and she's a, she's a bit more of a character that we
can depend on. And and that was really the the
point was to balance it. So not everyone in the police is
is going to be a rotter and not everyone in the police is going
to be a good one. But we've got 2 police in this
book and we've got one of each. So that was how I tried to show
a little bit. Yeah, there's been a problem
here and there is a wider problem, but not everybody is
involved in that problem. Yeah, I think, I think that's
fair. It was, it was just, it was
striking to me to kind of see that because it is, it makes
things complicated. And there's specific dialogue,
dialogue or thoughts from Joe and Misty like at different
points being like, I feel like they're dismissing us and
they're just, they're not focused on like the murder part.
They're focused on something else, which is more like
heteronormative, like, you know, the other thievery that's
happening in the in the book. No, not to spoil anything, but I
just found that really interesting because I I almost
like to me, I was like that as as somebody who's invested in
that community, I would be inspired to true crime this
myself. So like, it made sense for the
plot too, to be like, well, I'll do it if they're not going to do
it kind of thing. Yeah.
All right. You mentioned at the beginning
that this book takes place in Soho, which is a neighborhood in
London's West End. As Americans, you know, and
Americans particularly listen to us, can you explain why you
chose this location or why it might be significant to this
particular novel? Yeah, Soho historically is, is
one of the, the queer hubs of within the UK.
And Old Compton Street, where the majority of the book is set,
where Misty's Club is located, Old Compton Street is a, is a
street full of, of, of queer venues.
And so I wanted to write something that felt real, that
we could believe that if someone from our community picked it up
and had a read of it, that they would understand it as a, as a
real place. And also it's where I work
mostly. So when I first started
performing, I had a monthly cabaret that I used to run
before COVID and, and, and I, and I ran that in Soho and I
regularly perform at a comedy club in Soho.
And and so, so yeah, it's a place that I know and I felt
that I could write about, but also that has a really strong
sort of connection already to to the community.
So what you're saying is, is if we ever go to London, we should
go to Soho? You should go to Soho.
There's loads of cool places in London but Soho is pretty cool.
I like it. So Tiara, we have to add that to
our travel list. Yes, we do.
We'll we'll do a pit stop in London on our way to Thailand.
There you go. Do it.
I'll give you all the good places.
Yeah. Well, do you have any
recommendations for even our audience?
Like what's the 1st place that they should go?
Oh, I love and it's where I hosted my cabaret for a long
time and I have a show there tomorrow, a new show.
I love a place called the Phoenix Arts Club, which is a
club underneath a cabaret club, underneath the Phoenix Theatre.
And it is, you know, very sort of lovely cabaret club vibes,
you know, the, the round black tables and lovely stage and,
and, and every night of the week they have different shows on
different cabarets with burlesque and drag and comedy
and musical theatre. And they have a fabulous
Thursday night karaoke hosted by the Drag King, Adam all and
Apple Derrieres and the the Queen and they they are amazing.
So, so yeah, Phoenix Arts Club is a good place, is a good bet
for there's something on every day.
That's alright. OK, so back to the novel.
As Joe attempts to solve the crime, they find themselves
increasingly suspicious of all their close friends and
colleagues from Ladies Bar. What was that journey like for
Joe to have mixed feelings about people they view as family?
Oh, it was, it was interesting to write and actually kind of
moving to write how these characters interact with each
other. And in fact, I'm just at the
very end of writing the second Misty Divine Mystery.
And that one is even more of a emotional roller coaster than
the first. But I am sorry, I'm knocking,
knocking furniture. But I enjoyed, I enjoyed the
mystery and I wrote it the first half of the book without knowing
who the killer was. And so I wrote down who all of
my characters were. I and then I just, and then I
just went, I just wrote, right. I'm just going to write it.
And then at some point I'll have to decide who is the murderer.
And, and that was a really fun way for me to approach it.
I really enjoyed just and I've done the same with the second
book. I set up the mystery at the
beginning and then I was like, OK, when I get to halfway
through, then I'll do the plotting of the rest and then go
back and fix what needs fixing in the first half.
So it was quite nice to write all those characters without
thinking you are the murderer. You, you know, without having
that in mind. It was quite nice to write those
opening scenes without without knowing.
Well, because you make them an actual person 1st and then have
the motive. Because then if you know who it
is in the beginning, it's going to influence the way you write
everything. So I think that was a great
tactic actually. Yeah, it definitely worked for
me. It was a nice way to do it
because then I felt that the conversations in the dressing
rooms at the beginning and during the opening show in the
1st chapter felt really natural because I wasn't trying to
disguise the fact that someone was a murderer, you know?
I knew as much as Misty did who had done it and that that was a
nice way to to write it and present it, I thought.
Yeah, definitely more fun for you because then you're like, I
wonder what's going to happen as you're writing.
Yeah, And then halfway through, I'd realized who the murderer
was. I was like, Oh my God, no.
I love that. That's so perfect, that's so
perfect because after you're, you know, learning more about
you, you just in general seem to be quite the murder mystery
enthusiast in general. Like you mentioned, you had your
play, so drop drop death and then you produce and Co host a
murder mystery review podcast, read to death.
Great it. Did.
We're not doing it anymore, but we did, yeah.
Last year we had me and a drag queen called Keisha's Lorraine,
and she's fabulous, based near Bristol.
And we had a podcast for a while where we were reading and
reviewing murder mysteries, and that was so fun, just chatting a
lot of nonsense about about the books that we'd read.
Yes, it does sound like a lot of fun.
I'm just wondering what got you interested in the murder mystery
genre and what keeps you interested?
Oh, well, I suppose I've always enjoyed, you know, in England we
have a, well, we did have, I think it ran for about 30 years,
a television program called The Bill where every week there were
two episodes that had a sort of crime.
It was light entertainment sort of stuff.
And I remember watching that as a kid.
But I really got into crime fiction when I was about 13 and
I went on holiday to Wales and it was so boring.
It was the worst holiday, the worst holiday.
We're staying on some farm. I hated it.
And there was a book in the farmhouse.
We weren't staying in the farmhouse.
We weren't rich enough for that. We were camping in the farmers
field, but in the in the House of the farmer, she had a book by
Jonathan Kellerman, one of the Alex Delaware novels.
And in that book he's a child psychologist and his the
secondary detective is called Milo.
And he was a gay LAPD detective. And at the age of 13, that was
first time I'd ever read a book or seen a crime thing of any
kind that had a queer character. And, and I read all of them for
like 10 years. Every time a new one came out, I
read it. And, and so I've been interested
in it since then and especially interested in the development of
the secondary detective. So I love Watson in Sherlock
Holmes on the television and in the books, are always fascinated
by how those relationships work. And so for me with Misty in
Murder in the Dressing Room, that character was Miles, her
boyfriend, and that was a really interesting dynamic to write
because he's very supportive of her investigation until it gets
a bit risky. So it was fun to write that
relationship. And so I think that's what keeps
me interested is, you know, it's all that kind of thing.
And then writing Death Drop was was really fun.
I wrote it was kind of a loose pastiche on Agatha Christie's
And Then There Were None. So it would, you know, the
traditional murder mystery set up with each character arrives
in the fancy house one at a time, and we learn about them
and then Terrible Storm and they're all cut off from the
mainland and then someone dies. You know, I love it.
It's just, I think it's, I think it's camp.
Oh my gosh, I love it. I love it OK, but we we skipped
over something and we need to go back.
There's. Something you said.
Oh, what did I say? 2nd book.
Second, yeah, yeah, there's there's going to be at least
three, so. Love it.
I was going to ask because the end is a little like what we see
Misty again, so happy to hear that.
Well, well, yeah, the. I think I'm allowed to say it
was announced when the book deal was announced, so I reckon I'm
allowed to talk about that. Yeah.
There are three signs for three Misty Divine mysteries, So.
Yeah. So it's not the first one.
Second one is well past its deadline, but it's nearly
finished. I'm a busy lady.
Of course also. Creativity takes time.
It'll be amazing when they get it.
Exactly. So yeah, there will be a second
one and a third one. I hope you come back to talk
about those two. Oh, I'd love to.
I'd love to. But what's nice is that when we
pitched them to the publishers, I had to give an outline of two
or two and three so that they could see Misty's journey across
the three books. So it's kind of what each
mystery was going to be. So I kind of already know the
outline of what happens and now I'm filling in the gaps.
Perfect. Awesome.
That's so fun. That's, that's awesome to hear
too. Love, love the universe.
Yeah. Well, that's why I that's why I
asked for on the cover and I didn't think they would let me
do it and they weren't sure if they were going to do it, but I
asked for a misty divine mystery to be on the cover so that we so
that the whole series is called the Misty Divine Mysteries.
And that cover that you're holding up right there, They
asked me, they asked me to send in comparison covers of books
that that I thought I would like my cover to look like, or like
ideas and inspiration and all of that.
And I only sent them one thing. And I thought they're going to
hate me for this and they're going to tell me to go away.
But I sent them a Sweet Valley High cover and said I want the
spells. I want a lovely 80s style
illustration of misty on the front.
I want it to say the name of the series and maybe a little flag
on the spine with the number of the book.
You know, that that's what I what I wanted.
And I didn't really think I'd get it.
But they've they've done a sort of, you know, you can, I can see
the inspiration in in what what we got in the end.
So I was happy with that. Oh that's awesome.
Do you have any additional queer murder mystery book
recommendations for us and our audience to check out?
I'd say go and check out Katie Murphy, the drag Dublin
mysteries for sure. There is a great mystery book.
It's not a murder mystery, but it's a sort of light mystery
called The Vanishing of Margaret Small by Neil Alexander, and
that is a a beautiful book that I would would totally recommend.
And then I have well, I haven't. I have two books on my on my
list that I've been like gasping to read, but I can't read
anything till I've finished writing my own.
But the the betrayal of Thomas True by AJ W is set in sort of
historical London in the Mali houses, the old you know that
that's what they they called the sort of gay meeting places in in
the 1800s and and that is has had rave reviews.
And so that is top of my list for when I finished my book.
That's what I'm reading next is AJ list.
Oh. All right, that sounds good.
I love it. Love historical fiction?
Yeah, I we'll have to check them out.
We are, we got a long list of books to read now.
But speaking like we've talked a lot about representation and I'm
just curious, was there a show, movie, book that you read
growing up that made you feel seen?
I suppose the closest thing to that for me would be Queer as
Folk by Russell T Davies. The British series came out, I
guess it must have been 1999 because I was, you know, not
even born. But Queer as Folk, when it came
out, depicted a little bit the lives of queer teenagers in the
north of England in the 90s. And.
And I found it to be yeah, I I could understand the world of
that. And that was the first time that
I remember seeing something on television about queer people
and. And, and thinking, Oh yeah, and
I get this, I understand this. That's.
Beautiful. Yeah, that's great.
All right. Well, that concludes all the
questions we have for you. Thank you again, Holly, for
coming to talk to us. We really appreciate it.
We love learning about your process for the novel and just
getting to know you a little bit better.
This was really great. We appreciate it.
Oh, it's been so fun. I'm so pleased to be here and I
love that your mission about, if you can make it, your mission to
ensure that they make another series of Agatha all along.
Oh. We're trying.
Oh yes, yes, we're trying. In our schedule, like we're
working, we've got it. Good, good.
Yes, Oh my God, Emily, some queers and the Marvel Universe
and. Seriously.
And Patti Lupone in the Marvel Universe.
Yes, it's great. We have some.
Working on that, but until we sign off and try to go save
Agatha, how can our listeners at homes like connect with you,
maybe on the Internet or support you?
Well they absolutely must connect with me on the Internet.
It would be a terrible mistake not to.
And they can find me on TikTok and Blue Sky and Instagram all
at Holly W Stars. And if they come into London,
I've got a website that I don't update as often as I should, but
that I sometimes put my upcoming shows on, which is Holly W
stars.com. And they can find also the links
to pre-order the book from whatever country you're in.
Perfect. So I remain home.
Get on that. Get on it, pre-order it, quick
shop. Yes.
Get your copy of Murder of the Dressing Room because there's
going to be more. So you got to find out what's
going on. Please support.
And if you're watching, if you're watching this and it's
already out, just go read it now.
Go read it. Otherwise, it's if, if this is
out before it comes out, comes out on January the 14th in the
United States and Canada and everywhere else, it's coming out
on the 6th of February. Perfect.
All right, you've been warned. You've been told.
You've been told so to everybody at home.
That concludes our interview today.
Until next time, hydrate for lesbian Jesus.
And get it up all over the place.
Bye. Bye.
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