Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy.
I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora.
Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of
queer media. Representation matters, and
we're. Here to talk about it.
Cheers, queers, we are back with another super fun interview
today. We're talking to Eden Robinson,
who released her memoir Becoming Shameless last year.
Welcome to the podcast, Eden. Yeah, Thank you for having me.
I've been looking forward to this.
Yes, we're super excited. So as Caitlin mentioned, you
just wrote a book recently. So can you tell our audience a
little bit about what Becoming Shameless is about?
I wrote it shortly after reading Jeanette Mccurdy's memoir.
I'm Glad my mom died. And so as I was reading it, it
just I remembered a lot of things that had happened growing
up. And and you know, I'd also at
that time, I just, you know, I'd I'd come out about, you know,
six years previously. And so I was working through
internalized, internalized homophobia and lesbophobia and
all of that. It's all these things are just
kind of percolating in my brain. And so then when I read her
memoir, I was like, that's I I relate a lot to these
experiences, you know? And there's also this whole,
like, homophobia piece and like coming out later in life, which
I feel like isn't talked about enough and more people are
talking about that, which is great.
But so yeah, I was just like, I do like what if if I wrote down
all my thoughts and experiences, how many, what would that, what
would that be? And then I wrote it down.
I got like the first draft finished within a week.
And I was like, I I think, I think I have a book here.
And so then I just was just kind of learned along the way, you
know, about self-publishing and all of that.
So, but yeah. But to answer your question,
it's basically about, you know, my experience growing up
surviving an abusive childhood and navigating that and healing
from that, and also unlearning a lot of internalized homophobia
and realizing that I'm gay when I was like 27, which is a fun
time to realize that, you know? So it's it's about both of
those. And I wrote about both of those
experiences because recognizing that that that this dynamic I
had with my primary parent was really abusive.
Like recognizing that and also recognizing that I that there
are all these, you know, societal expectations of me to
be a straight woman and how that doesn't align with who I am.
You know, unlearning both of those.
I'm learning those those expectations and kind of
learning how to kind of be like that's that's that's not about
me, let's put that over there. That doesn't need to be a part
of my life. You know that there's there's
some interconnectedness there. So, so yeah.
So that's it's that's what the book is about.
I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who can relate to
everything you went through growing up.
So why did you decide that now is the time to write and release
your memoir? I mean it was more just kind of
a like, you know, after reading Jeanette Mccurdy's book, I was
like, do I have enough for a book?
And then I wrote it out. I was like, I think this is
enough for a book. So then I just, I just did it
like it It wasn't like a, you know, I I in terms of timing, I
do feel like, you know, I reached a point in my healing
journey where you know, I kind of reached a level of of
stability in in both things. So in terms of my query
identity, you know, I felt comfortable in the lesbian
label. It took me time to like even
feel comfortable saying the word lesbian out loud.
But I was at that place when I wrote the book.
I'm still, you know, still happy little lesbian over here and.
How can a lesbian needs to be a shirt?
I hope so. I think I just yeah, 'cause
like, IA lot of the unlearning around lesbophobia specifically
is like his like culturally, the word lesbian has such like it's
very sexualized. Like even the fact that like if
you go on to Reddit like R slash lesbians, it's not it's not for
us. It is performative.
It's it's performative sexuality targeted towards straight men.
You know and and you like even the way, like if you look at
TikTok, like the fact that the dollar being like the reason
that became a popular like meme and phrase is because the word
lesbian was being restricted as like, oh, if there's the word
lesbian and comments or description, then that's
considered more mature content. It's like I'm not mature
content. I'm a person, you know, like gay
is fine, but lesbian, right. Oh yeah, exactly.
Well, exactly. And obviously, you know all the
word like queer, gay, bisexual, like all of those words, they
describe you know, community and people and individuals, you know
and and they describe like those terms apply to to teenagers who
are, you know, like there's there's bisexual teenagers.
They're lesbian teenagers. I was one, you know, I just
didn't know it. But I was, you know, like, so
it's it's important for those terms to be, you know, I I know
that there are some queer individuals who shy away from
the word lesbian and don't like to identify with the word
lesbian because of how hyper sexualized it is.
And I totally understand that. Totally respect their decision.
For me, my personality is such that it's like, hey, I'm that
thing that's like stop sexualizing that word.
That's what that's me. You know what I mean?
I'm not going to shy away from the word.
It is me. And so I, I, you know, I I want
to see the culture shift. Not, not people who would
otherwise identify as lesbians. Shy away from the word because
of cultural perceptions, you know.
Yeah, I actually love that you brought that up because I do
have a question about that. And it's on page 93 where you
talk about having a hard time with the word lesbian because of
the depiction of that word in the media.
And I felt just felt that was super relatable because I also
had a hard time with the word lesbian until I started doing
this podcast and it was just common because it's not common
ish to hear it outside of the community.
I feel like because of the connotation of it absolutely.
Yeah, gay or queer is much more sort of, like, commonly used.
And I love queer. Like, I love queer as an
umbrella term because it's so inclusive and because it's
inclusive of people who are, like, still figuring themselves
out because that takes time. But yeah, but I also really love
the word lesbian. And I'm like, hey, you know,
like and I love all the memes around it.
Like, let's go lesbians. And like, there's one I don't.
I think it's from like a documentary or something.
It's this other woman coming out of the van.
She's like, where are my lesbians?
And then all the young women just, like, flocked to her.
And I was like, I love this. That's from a movie called
Pride. It's fantastic.
It's like the gaze of lesbians for the minors.
And this was like a real thing that happened during like a
labor strike in England. And yeah.
That's. Amazing.
It's amazing. OK, I got.
I got. I have.
To watch that, go watch a movie. It's great, yeah.
But yeah, Iconic, yeah. Yeah.
So obviously we, yeah, we use the word queer to you.
But we've actually have had people like the older generation
of the LGBTQ community be like, oh, we don't like that word.
So I feel like there's still some people who do not prefer
that word because of the way they were raised, because that
was also used in a derogatory manner.
Yeah. And that I mean that also.
Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
I. Was gonna say there's just
there's power in language and there's something to be said
about like taking words back and like like you're saying
destigmatizing the word that was used not by the people who
identify with it in a slanderous manner.
Like queer as common now when it used to be such a like a
derogatory word, like Caitlyn said.
So exactly like I in January, my girlfriend and I started a
podcast called Just Diking Around because like, I like the
word dyke. I think it's a fun word.
I totally understand. For people who don't want to use
it, I totally understand I'm again.
My my perspective is I think words are worth reclaiming if if
you want to. And I'm someone who wants to
reclaim the word dyke because I think it's a fun word.
I think it is fantastic how many, how many ways you can use
it, like alliteratively, if that's a word you know and like
just play around with it. Like, I just think it's a fun
word. Definitely.
So back to the memoir. So you said that you basically
just like spilled out your life story in a week, which is
admirable. And that that tells me something
that like perhaps it was just like ready to come out at that
particular time when you sat down to write it.
So because you were writing something that was really
focused on yourself, did you learn things about yourself
while you're kind of like, I don't know, like putting your
life on the page? Yeah, I think that I think what
I noticed more is like the healing that came with getting
it onto the page and also in the review of process.
So you know as I was writing I was doing my best to like
describe things, you know, be beat by beat as they happened.
And then in the reviewing process I, you know like kind of
shortened conversations and kind of was like OK from a from a
reader's perspective, how do I make this story flow the best,
you know? And so in I think in doing that
kind of going through both experiences, one where I'm just
like almost like info dumping, you know, all of it.
And then in the editing process where I'm looking at it from
like more of an objective perspective because I'm kind of
looking at it from like an outsider's perspective to see
how the story flows. There's a there's kind of like a
like as I was reading the story as like as if I was a reader I
was like I I developed a lot more sympathy for my younger
self. Because I think I think a lot of
people who survive very abusive childhoods, especially
childhoods where the abuse is predominantly emotional and
verbal and not necessarily physical.
There is in the there is some physical abuse too but you know
but when it's when when the when most of the abuse is emotional
and and verbal. There's this sense of you know
what, maybe it wasn't really that bad and like maybe I'm just
making too big of a deal out of this and like you there's a
there's a tendency to kind of self blame and and to kind of
beat up your younger self for what happened.
And so in, you know, obviously therapy helped me a lot with
that as well. But also, yeah, like reading the
story and and just kind of, I don't know, I I was able to
develop more sympathy for my younger self of like, yeah, she
she was really just trying to try to survive and trying to get
through all of this. Yeah, that definitely said that
you mentioned kind of like the the tendency to be like, well,
maybe this was my fault. That definitely came through in
the writing. And that felt very, like
authentic because that's like, that's like a common trauma
response to just be like once you're out of the moment, be
like, well, maybe it wasn't so bad, you know?
And like, it's fine now because, you know, you're in a in a
survival mode, basically, and you don't realize it.
And so, like, reading that from a child's perspective was really
interesting. Like, especially in the younger
years was like very interesting and yeah, like it.
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah.
And that's extremely common. Like every abuse survivor I've
spoken with, you know, whether that abuse happened in a family
relationship, a romantic partnership, you know, there's
there's it's it's part of the abuse cycle, right?
There's the there's the abusive episode and then there's the
like like reconciliation, you know where the abuser things
feel better and the abuser is nice and you're like oh OK that
that wasn't that bad. Like you know there, you know I
I shouldn't have said XYZ or I shouldn't have done whatever.
And if I just, you know, if I, if I just tried harder and you
know, was a better daughter or partner or, you know, whatever,
then it'll be better next time. You know what?
And you just and it just keeps happening and then eventually
you're like, wait a minute, this is not, no matter what I do,
this keeps happening. So maybe this actually isn't
about me at all. All right.
To pivot a little bit, So in the book you mentioned, you
mentioned media quite a bit, like you mentioned TV shows and
movies. That kind of meant something to
you at different points of your life.
So just since this is a media focused podcast, curious how
media like impacted your life? Immensely, as you, Ghostbusters
on my wall. There's a lot of that.
We have Cave McKinnon in a suit. We have Pink in performing.
We have, let's see, I have, yeah, I've got AG flip over
here. That's that's more recent one.
They're just fun. And so anyway.
But yes, media. Media has been, you know, made a
a massive difference. And I mean starting with, you
know, when I before I even realized that I was queer, you
know, I had just gotten out of an abusive relationship where I
had been assaulted and it I I hadn't even come to terms with
the fact that that had been an assault.
I just was kind of in a in a in a sort of daze.
And I discovered Pink's album Funhouse because it had just
come out and it was her Music gave me permission to feel so
many emotions that I hadn't given myself permission to feel
because my mother never gave me permission to feel and so get
having that catharsis through the music And and also like I,
you know, I I pink became my special interest for a while And
so I was watching like every, every interview with her I could
find on YouTube. And this is back in like the
early early days of YouTube. Yeah.
And, you know, and I was like, Oh, my God, she's she's so smart
and she's so thoughtful and she's so funny.
And she's so, like, honest and, like, raw in a way that you
don't often see, especially in, like, celebrity interviews.
And so I I really looked up to her.
It's like that's, oh, that's that's who I want to be as an
adult, you know, 'cause I was, I was 19 at the time.
And so, you know, I I was still figuring out, like, who I wanted
to be, what kind of person I wanted to be, like how I was
going to fit into the world. It's like oh like like that.
I want that's I I relate to that and I also see so many values
that I like want to embody more. And so hearing through her
lyrics how she felt angry and sad and just like the angst and
the, you know, just there's just a lot of emotions there that her
music, her music was a catalyst for me giving myself permission
to feel those emotions and feel those feelings.
So yeah, that was that was, you know, her music was and
continues to be just impactful and and means a lot to me.
And then I if if it weren't for Kate McKinnon, I might still be
closeted, Which is really sad to think about, but.
Go Kate McKenna. Yeah, no, truly.
And specifically if she wasn't out.
So I I I didn't watch SNL or like, I had no idea who she was.
But Ghostbusters came out and then the female Ghostbusters,
and of course, you know, misogynists were mad about it.
So I was like, well, I got to give it my money then.
And so I went, I went to see the theaters on like the opening
weekend. And as soon there's like a scene
where Aaron Gilbert, you know, confronts, confronts Abby and
then, you know, kind of stumbles into meeting Jillian Holtzman
and just as soon as Kate McKinnon, because Kate McKinnon
plays Jillian. As soon as Kate McKinnon came
out, I was, it was just like a like, I don't know how to
describe it. I was like transfixed by her.
I was just like, I I can't even explain.
It was something about just how she embodied to the character
and how she expressed herself. And I I related to Jillian
Holtzman so much, and so I I came home and like, no one else,
'cause this is the opening weekend.
So no one else I knew had seen the movie yet.
And I was like, I need to fangirl about this.
And so I went to Tumblr, 'cause that's the home of the fangirl.
And and I just followed like every Jillian Holtzman, Kate
McKinnon blog I could find. And you know and then I was like
oh like I'm everyone else is queer is sapphic and also has
learning terms like queer and sapphic.
Like I just, you know prior to that I was just a really really
strong ally to the community such a good ally And you know so
I was learning these terms that were more open than you know
gay, lesbian, bi. That's it, you know and but I
you know I, I. Well, I had only dated men,
like, up to that point. And so I like, I know it sounds
ridiculous, but I was like, well, I've dated men, so I can't
be gay because I've dated men. And you know, And so I was just,
I was just going along, you know, just fangirling over Kate
McKinnon and Jillian Holtzman. And that's where I found out
that Kate McKinnon herself is a lesbian.
And I was like huh You know. And I'm I'm watching interviews
with her and it's the same thing as like what happened with Pink
where like I'm just like Oh my God, she's so funny.
And she's so like like off the cuff and just like very sweet
and very I I just related to how she presented in these
interviews and. I'm not afraid to be herself.
Yeah, exactly. And also what I noticed is, you
know, she was, she had done all of this, all these interviews
with other cast members from Ghostbusters and especially she
and Leslie Jones. They have a very like cuddly
dynamic. And I hadn't really, like
thought about this, like this hadn't really come to the front
of my mind until I was seeing Kate McKinnon, a no lesbian, you
know, interact in such a platonically of but like
physically affectionate way with her cast mates.
And I was like lesbians can do that.
Like lesbians can like be physically affectionate in like
a non sexually just just, you know, be like cozy with their
friends, essentially. Without having them be like, oh,
you're coming on to me. Right, right.
Without without it being like, you know, 'cause like, honestly,
prior to that, like I I watched the L word and But that, you
know, like the L Word is like my that that was the most I knew
about lesbians. Basically it's.
A framer, and you know that should not be a.
Framer. Right.
It should not be. I mean it's it's, you know, it's
it's fun for what it is like, you know.
But yes, this should not be your sole reference for lesbianism is
and it's, I mean, it's a soap opera, let's call it what it is.
It's a soap opera. And so when you have a soap
opera, like it's very, you know, like anytime two female
characters make eye contact with each other, you know they're
going to fuck within the next three episodes like that, you
know? And so it was, you know, it's
it's the way that sex was portrayed.
I I have many feelings and thoughts about how the sex was
portrayed in that show because on the one hand I think it's
valuable to show how lesbian sex can work because so many people
do not know that and I don't think that real life lesbians
should bear the brunt of that. You know, in terms of being
asked I don't know in the middle of a reckon Trader Joe's hey,
how do lesbians have sex like I don't you know and all and porn
is clearly not doing its job of showing how lesbian sex actually
works. So I think that there's a lot of
value in creating media and content that you know, show two
women having sex same more realistic way.
Obviously it's all Hollywood and whatever, but like in a more
accurate way while also, you know, showing stories and having
it be an interesting, you know, storyline or whatever.
But it you know that's it's still not there's value in the
show and what it was for you know queer women of the time and
all of that. But also not the best reference
point for like lesbianism. Not the most accurate anyway.
That's all to say that, you know, seeing Kate McKinnon just
exist was just I was having a lot of epiphanies about what it
actually means to be lesbian. And I related to it a lot.
I I related a lot to to how she kind of moves through the world.
And then I saw a post just on Tumblr and I at this point it's
all just like I I'm just following like all Kate Holtzman
fan blogs, so everyone's gay and Sapphic.
And so someone reblogs a post about compulsory heterosexuality
and I'm just reading it. So I'm like, oh, what's this
like? Oh, it's me.
And so it was, it was like that. It was, it's a very, like, I
often compare it to that movie The 6th Sense where you get to
the end. You're like he was dead the
whole time. That makes so much sense.
Like I was a lesbian the whole time I had.
That makes so much sense. That's of course, yes.
My whole life makes sense now. And so that was the that was the
like, this is Cape Mckennon, Gillian Holtzman, and then
reading about Compat and being like, oh, OK, yes.
So I feel like I know this answer, but is there a piece of
media that's out now that you wish was around when you were
growing up? Gosh, so much.
I mean, even. OK.
So I wish. I mean, going back to like kids,
more like content directing work.
Prince kids like Shira. I wish Shira had been around
when I like. I know there was like an older
Shira. But like the current Shira, the
Netflix Shira. I wish that had been around when
I was a kid. I wish oh God, there's trying to
remember like all there's been so many.
Oh, Nimona, I wish that had been out when I was a kid.
Yeah, just like there's so much. There's so much, there's so many
like movies and shows that just show like 2.
I mean so much. Not as much as there should be.
But compared to when I was growing up, like there's there's
a lot more now. You know, showing 2 girls like
liking each other. And you know that I I wish, I
wish I had known lesbianism was an option and being queer was an
option. And also part of that is I did
grow up religious. So you know, I don't know.
You know, I I don't know to what degree I would have been allowed
to watch these shows when I was younger, but at least for them
to have existed, there would have been a chance at me finding
them. And I think not only do I wish
those shows had been around, but I also around the early 2000s is
when I was like, you know, around those middle school
years. And there was like, there was
like the Britney and Madonna kiss, there was Katy Perry's I
Kissed a girl. Like there was so much.
I don't know what I want to call it, Like, I hesitate to call it
Sapphic representation, but it kind of was like so much like
Sapphic representation. That was like very intensely
male gaze. Yes.
So it was very much it was, it was like it was, in my
experience, it was almost worse than if if it had never been,
like, shown at all. Because to show, oh, this is
what being a queer woman is, is, is it's to be further sexualized
by men and and, you know, preyed upon by men.
It created this like internal like disgusted repulsion versus
if I had, you know, if I had grown up just like not knowing
what Gabe was at all, I may have been able to like connect the
dots and be like, I don't really feel that way about guys.
I do kind of feel that way about girls, Like, you know what I
mean? Like they're I may have had more
room to like actually recognize my own feelings.
But because there it like, I think, yeah, the the the, the
representation that was out there was so harmful.
It was, it was. It was almost like more harmful
than you know than than to not have it at all, I think for me
personally. Yeah, I I remember that stuff.
And then I forget what was it. Tattoo also came out to the fake
lesbians. Yes.
This is a band of fake lesbians pretending to be lesbians.
So yeah, I totally it was. It was a weird time.
The early 2000s was a weird time.
But I like your examples that you gave specifically of Nimona
and Shira because it goes back to what you were saying earlier
is like it. Those are like age appropriate,
like representations of queerness because like she was
like they're like young, like young young adults and then like
Nimona, they're like a young adult in it, like a child and
then like older adults that are queer.
And so it's like and it's not the point of, it is not the
romance or like the sexualization of anybody.
It's just like a part of this, just part of the characters and
like it's normalization and presenting it in an age
appropriate way. And I agree.
A lot of what I feel what we do on the podcast is like healing
inner child because you didn't know any of this as a kid.
And so, like, yeah, exactly. Healing inner child's and doing
group. Therapy.
That's the podcast, yes. Eden, you mentioned earlier that
you have a podcast called Just Diking Around.
Can you explain to us a little bit about your podcast?
I would like to. I would like to learn.
Yeah. So.
So my girlfriend Jackie and I have been together for a couple
years and I started falling down.
Prior to that, I kind of fell down a rabbit hole of like a
Reddit React podcast. And I just found them really
entertaining. And I would like, you know,
listen to these episodes and then I would talk to Jackie
about them. We would talk about the
ridiculous stories and you know, just like we would have our own
full on conversations about it. And I was like, what if, what
if, like what if we started one? And so that's and that's how
that started. I was like with her in December.
It was this past December and then as soon as I came back home
because we're long distance because we're lesbians so and so
you know I came back home and we recorded our first episode and
then it's been I've run. I'm working on an editing
episode 9 now. I had to take a little breaks.
They started a new job and getting settled in and all that
but I. Understand.
Yes, yeah, but yeah we predominantly like read Reddit
post. I I do my best to find ones that
like don't sound completely you know creative writing practice
you know what I mean? I do my best to find ones that
are like sound like feasible and like they even if this like even
if that particular one might not be percent accurate.
Like we've we've seen these situate these kinds of
situations happen. You know we know people think
like this kind of thing. Yeah and you know but also like
we'll also discuss like other things like if we watch like a
queer show together it's very like queer centric of a podcast
right. So if we watch like a fun queer
show, we'll talk about it or like your book or whatever.
Like one of our recent episodes we gave a shout out to like
Dating Unlocked, which is a queer show that we really
enjoyed. It's Canadian, it's a reality
dating show, but it's like done really well.
It's really cute. And then there I recently read a
like a a Sapphic, like romance novella that was really good.
It's called Bespoke by LM Bennett is the author.
So you know, I read a few excerpts, like gave the author a
shout out and all that. So it's basically like queer
content. If we don't have any, like we
don't have any, like we don't have anything to talk about,
we'll have picked out Reddit stories and react to those.
If we have other things to talk about, like within the queer
genre, we'll talk about that. That's awesome.
We love more queer shows. Exactly like queer media in
general. Yeah, exactly.
And you know, I I think it's so it's so valuable and also just
really fun to do. But yeah, I also think it's
valuable to just like have poor people just like tell our
stories. And, you know, because there
are, there are still so many people who are scared of the
rainbow and scared of the queer community.
And you know, I I think the more that we get to just, like, tell
our stories and be like, hi, I'm actually not the boogie man
we're. Not the problem.
Yeah, exactly. Right.
Like we we just want to like we we just want to get married and
like have a good life and like adopt some pets, you know, maybe
you know, do some woodworking or something, you know, be just be
gay and happy. But that's about it.
I love it. You Currently, I believe, live
in San Francisco, which has one of the gayest cities I have ever
seen. Thank you.
Fiora, you're welcome. How does it feel to live in this
accepting place after growing up how you did?
It's really really nice. It's really nice to you know I
so my day job is I'm a personal trainer and most of my clients
are queer which is just really nice to have that like not I
mean not that it how do I you'll need to like cut all these
pauses out but like it's obviously.
There's something about working with the queer population.
Yeah, right. Like it.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that when.
Yeah, OK. So this is what I'm trying to
say. When you're queer and you're in
any workplace, there is this anxiety that can come up where
it's like, how much you know will I get fired?
Or if it's, you know, a kind of job where you're working
one-on-one with clients, you know, like, how much am I
compromising my finances by? Just like being honest and being
like, you know, when they're like, oh, how was your weekend?
You're like, oh great, my girlfriend and I watched blah
blah blah, you know what I mean? Like talking about your your
partner is such a common part of just like everyday interaction
between, you know, you and your Co workers, clients, what have
you. And so there is this sort of
like anxiety that can come up even in a place like San
Francisco, you know, like where it's like you still kind of like
hesitate and are like is can I come out, You know what I mean?
Like, can I say my girlfriend or da da da.
And living in San Francisco, I feel very fortunate that, you
know, that anxiety is much, much less than it would be if I was
living in a more, you know, Republican minded city.
And and so the fact that most of my clients are queer is it it
just creates a level of comfort with both of us, you know,
because both of us have had, you know, with with each client.
It's like both of us have had negative experiences pertaining
to, you know, coming out and all of that.
And so it's it's when when we know that the other is queer, it
it just creates this level of comfort with each other And like
this is this, you know, not overuse this phrase but like
this is the safe space, you know, kind of thing.
And so I feel very lucky that I can just be honest about my life
and not have to worry about, I mean, because I'm a terrible
liar. I don't have the.
I don't have. I'm not I don't have a good
enough memory to lie. So you know, if it if I had to
like if I was working somewhere where like I had to like catch
myself and and and hide that part of me, it would be very, I
don't think I'd last very long. That's why I add this podcast as
the first thing on my resume. So it just, yeah.
Exactly. Exactly.
So, So, yeah, so then I've been very lucky that, you know, the,
the gyms that I've worked out are very inclusive and very
just, yeah, I I've never, I have.
I've been fortunate enough to never have personally
encountered an issue where you know, my livelihood is
compromised because of my identity.
Yeah, honestly. Like, it's it.
Having like grown up in the South and now living in a
liberal city, like, I completely understand how you feel.
It's like a giant. Weight is lifted.
Because like, literally, it's normal.
Nobody cares. Yeah, exactly.
And I lovely. Yeah, exactly.
And I, you know, I've thought about returning to Massachusetts
just like for fun, like just to be able to show Jackie, like
this is where I grew up, you know, have my Boston accent
accent come out all over again, you know?
But I do because I grew up in such a religious community.
Like every time I think of, you know, going back home, there's,
there's that, like, OK, so like, do like, is 'cause like in a
normal situation if you're going back to a hometown where, you
know, you'd a couple friends and who still live there, you're
gonna naturally be like, oh, hey, I wanna grab lunch with
them, introduce them to my spouse, etcetera.
But every time I think about returning to Massachusetts, I'm
like, I don't know if I will reconnect with, you know, these
families that I grew up around. Because I know they're religious
and I don't know how they're going to respond to me being
like, hey, me and my girlfriend, you know, are here, you know, so
then you get the people. Who are straight and use the
word girlfriend so then they still won't think.
That you're talking about your girlfriend and then?
That's true. But I think I mean yes but yeah
I I I don't know I I I think that they will.
I think I think they'll I think it'll be pretty obvious so yeah
but but. But yes, but then also that's
also weird. You know what I mean?
I personally I I I'm staunchly against it.
I think straight women should choose.
Just say best friend. Like why do you have to say
girlfriend? Yes.
Why are we gendering only our female friends?
Exactly. That's my boyfriend, who's a boy
and a friend. Exactly.
So that's, I think that's what it is.
If straight women are out here calling all their male friends
their boyfriends, right? Sure, OK, whatever.
But just don't have a double standard, that's all correct.
Love it. Love it.
I agree. All right.
You mentioned earlier you're her personal trainer.
You like guessed all our questions.
So you're a personal trainer and you created Fangirl Fitness,
which we love that your tagline is unleash your inner superhero
because like, yes, so OK so why did you start this?
And like can you explain the concept of this to?
Us. Yeah.
So I I did not get into fitness or working out at all until I
was in college. And it just, you know, working
out became an outlet for a lot of this anxiety and anger and
all these feelings. And I could just go for a run
and then the feelings and feel better because endorphins.
And you know, it was at the time of like trying to figure out
what I want to do. And I ended up randomly getting
a job at a rock climbing gym, running like the kids
programming and which basically just means it's like, you know,
if there was like a birthday party, I would belay.
So the blayer is the person standing on the ground wearing
the harness with the rope like tied in.
And they're the ones basically making sure that the climber is,
is safe. My wife is a rock climber.
I am the blayer. Exactly.
Oh, rock climbing is so lesbian. Yeah.
Anyway, yeah. No, I mean, like the jobs that I
had, the clothes I wore, like I was living in a glass closet the
entire time anyway. So yeah, so I was believed for
kids birthday parties. And also like there was like the
summer camp, you know, I would, I was in charge of the kids and
you know, anyway, so this was, I believe it was a birthday party.
And one of the girls who was so scared that like as soon as we
tried to like put on the harness, she just started crying
because I mean it's it's scary, you know, if you're walking in
your little, you know, 8 year olds, you know, it's big, these
big walls and you're expected to go all the way to the top.
And I mean, we don't expect them to go all the way to the top,
but some parents can be, you know, and you know, and and she
was scared. So then and I was able to just
like work with her one-on-one and just you know kind of like
gently coach her and make her feel really like at ease and and
in working together I was able to kind of spark that that
interest and that like you know, kind of sense of empowerment
rather than fear. And by the end of the two hour
session she was climbing halfway up the wall and just like you
know look how you know getting to to to the halfway point being
like look how hey I'm you know kind of thing and sounds like oh
I I wanna I wanna I wanna do more of this like I this is
something I like this this feeling.
And then there was another time when it was a birthday party and
it was all girls and you know at in the beginning you can kind of
tell like there was a little bit more not there wasn't like
intense cliques but there was a little you could tell a little
bit you know clickiness. I mean, these are middle school
girls like this, Unfortunately. It's pretty normal, you know,
But as we, you know, like only two girls could climb at a time
because there were only two blares.
And so the rest of the girls were just sitting and kind of
started to cheer on the climbers.
And it became more of this like full group activity where like
as each girl went up, you know, they were being cheered on by
the entire group. And it was such a lovely.
It was just so lovely and wonderful.
And I was like, yes, I want to do more of this, you know.
And so I was thinking about how I could, how I could, you know,
help other people feel physically empowered.
And I was like, what if, what if I became a trainer?
And so I looked. I looked into it and, you know,
I looked into getting my certification.
I got the, the textbook. The National Academy of Sports
Medicine is the agency I went with and, you know, got the
textbook, studied, took the exam, passed.
And that's you know once you pass the exam you're certified
and then just started working with clients.
You know have I've looked at like various different gyms and
it's it's you know the the like the fact that you're anytime
you're working with clients you know it's it's not a clock in
work 8 hours clock out. This is the same paycheck I get,
you know, every couple weeks. I know what I I know how much
money I'm making. Like it's not that.
It's very like, it's more like this And sometimes it's like
this And you know, so it's it's it's hard in that respect, but
every time I'm working with a client, I'm teaching a class,
'cause I I got also a few years after getting certified, I got
my yoga teacher certification. Like it just, I just like the I
just really love the work. Like I just really love helping
people and helping them feel empowered and you know, and and
connecting with them in such a, you know, it's it's a very like
visceral way. You know what I mean?
It's like you come in and a lot of times, yeah, a lot of times
my clients use it as sort of like a, a venting session.
You know, they're venting about work and whatever, you know, and
and so they get that kind of like, you know, like
opportunities just like vent and like unleash, not unleash but
like unload all of that. And also they're getting to like
release that physically as well. You know, stress, anxiety, all
of that stuff. You know, they're they're given
that outlet, you know, and they're also, you know, becoming
more empowered as well. You know every session brings
them closer to the point where they can eventually just work
out on their own because I've trained and educated them enough
that, you know, they know how to they know how to do stuff on
their own, you know, So so yeah, it's it's a really fun job and I
I really, I really enjoy helping people this way.
What was sorry, what was the question?
Did I answer your question? Just what's the concept of
fangirl fitness? Oh yeah, yeah.
So I came up with that because I mean I am a fangirl at heart.
And I also again I I got certified about like 88 ish
years ago. And so you know the landscape of
the time back then, you know Jillian Michaels was still very
big. Like the whole perspective on
fitness was very much like boot camp drill Sergeant kind.
There was starting like body positivity was like starting to
be a thing. But still there's very much this
public perception of a trainer being like you know what I mean?
Like a big scary. Yeah.
And so I wanted a name that would just, like, was a little
cheek, cheeky, I can tell. But I like, you know, just
hiking around. I like having fun.
And so, you know, so I wanted something that was like fun and
like kind of making fun of myself a little bit and also
reflective of, like, who I am and kind of indicating, like,
hey, it's like we're going to have fun.
You know what I mean? This isn't, I'm not no yelling.
It's we're we're all cool. And so, yeah, so I was like, oh,
fangirl, 'cause I'm a fangirl. I like, I'm a nerd.
I like connecting with other people, you know, who are also
nerds and fangirls and all that. So that's what started that.
And I wanted something just like colorful, like if you go to the
website, you see it's very like kind of fun and colorful and
playful. And that's, that's what I wanted
to to kind of communicate through my brand.
It makes it less intimidating and I just love the whole thing.
Yeah, because like, you know, physical fitness is something
that we're all, you know, we all deserve and it's become such as
fitness and health and Wellness has become like productized and
like, you know what I mean? Like like as it's become, it's,
it's been turned into this product by capitalism.
Yes, it's this. It's like, there's all of this,
like shame and you know, shaming and like, just bullshit that's
just tacked on to it. And you're just like, that's
that's bullshit. But if you don't know, you don't
know that it's bullshit. Like, you know what I mean?
And so that's why, like, I, I see my job as, like I'm as much
a teacher as I am like a a trainer, you know, because most
of my job is just literally teaching, like just teaching my
clients, you know, this is don't worry about this.
This is bullshit. This is marketing.
This is nonsense. And this is what is actually
going to help you, you know, physically become stronger.
You know, this is what's going to help your health, you know,
and and all of that. So yeah.
Well, thank you for setting the record straight.
As a healthcare professional, I appreciate that because yes,
there's a lot of garbage out there, so.
And it's it's fun. I mean like funny and like a
depressing way how like the same bullshit that like back in the
the old days of like Instagram and YouTube, like it it was
there and then now it's on TikTok.
Like you're seeing. It's like the same, it's like
reruns, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like diet
culture reruns but just on TikTok instead of YouTube, you
know, And it's just, yeah, it's. With that said, I do also see a
lot of, you know, like a lot of other professionals, like I love
Brianna Jewell on YouTube. She debunks a lot of fitness
nonsense. You know, there's other
trainers, nutritionists who, you know, have a similar approach to
what I to my approach, you know, and and do their best to debunk
a lot of that. And I'm really happy to see them
have a lot of followers and have a lot of attention.
So there's, you know, there's a lot of bullshit, but there's
also a lot of people who are working to to debunk all that
and and set the record straight as well.
Well, thank you Ian, that those are the questions we have for
you. This is truly fascinating.
We appreciate getting to know you better and all the facets of
your life before we close out the episode.
Do you have any final words or anything you'd like to say to
the listeners at home? Not, yeah.
Nothing in particular. I mean, just just, I I'm trying
to think like, I mean, I know it's, you know, cliche,
whatever, but I I think there's a lot of value in like trusting,
you know, trusting your gut, trusting your intuition,
noticing that if you feel yourself being pulled in a
certain direction, you know, like, like years before I became
a trainer, I, when I was in college, I wanted to get my
degree in kinesiology. I didn't know why.
I didn't know what I would be doing with that.
But I wanted to. And it was my mom who convinced
me that that would be a waste of time, you know?
And so, you know, and same thing like when I was growing up, like
there were these moments where I was like, I knew that this was
bullshit. Like I knew that this was
abusive. I knew this was messed up and I
knew that I deserved better than what I was getting in in from my
parents. And but then like, you know, I,
I, I, I responded to myself with a lot of shame and being like,
Oh no, you know, you're da, da, da, da.
And so I I think that if I had to give a piece of advice, it'd
be like if you feel yourself pulled in a certain direction
and then and and attracted to something and but you're holding
yourself back because you're feeling like this external
shaming, this external kind of pushing you away from that, it's
something worth investigating. You know, I think anytime you
feel yourself pulled towards something, that's something to
investigate. Well, thank you for that.
We great advice. We really appreciate.
Again, thank you for coming on the podcast.
We appreciate getting to know you and to everyone listening,
be sure to check out Becoming Shameless.
It is out, it is great and just hiking around for all fun extra
queer content that Eden's putting out there.
So until next time, everybody hydrate for lesbian Jesus.
And gate up all over the place. Bye.
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