Hello and welcome to Big Gay energy.
I'm Bree. I'm Fiora and I'm Caitlin come
along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer
media representation matters. And we're here to talk about it.
Well, welcome back, everybody. We're here again.
Back in motherland, land. So please give a very special
which you welcome to Diana Pavlov, Scott AKA Mama caller
from motherland for Salem, hello.
And thank you for taking the time to talk to us today.
Finally happy, we got our stuff together.
Yay! Very nice to see you again.
Nice to see you both very nice to see you, okay?
So let's Jump Right In So Willa has made a lot of controversial
decisions, in the name of making the world a better place for her
daughter. Did she had just one or two did
she have any regret for taking civilian lives?
Or did she believe it was justified?
Considering the oppression of witches.
Yeah, I thanks. Thanks for getting my thinking.
It's a softball question, really?
We like to start with the easy ones, you know?
It's it's the answer is both. I mean you know you believe in
what you're doing at the time and the justification for, you
know, all the witches lives that were taken.
And then yeah, you know, as you go on you go, what?
But what's the bigger outcome? You know, is eye-for-an-eye the
best way to do this and it? Yeah, yeah.
There's there's the righteous fight and then there's the could
we have taken a different strategy could be have done that
a little differently. So yeah I think it's I think
it's both. I think there is a healthy
amount of You know, it's loss of life is loss of life and where
it started from was a place of true.
Okay, we got it, we got to try to fight the good fight.
Start hammering. Caitlin's camera likes to do
that. Interesting.
Okay. Didn't like my answer?
No, it was wrong wrong. We do about that.
No, it's just whatever I do. It doesn't like me.
It just goes off every half hour and we would, like, mess with
it, but it's become part of our show in a way.
Did you just say bye to Kaitlyn? Every you wouldn't know, I've
been exactly how we see that. In that question, you know, how
do you see it from your perspective?
I'm curious, how would you answer that if you?
Well, we don't really have. The people ask us the same
questions about how grinding the life must have been for Willa,
as far as first of all, she's got Civilian husband, she
doesn't live like her family unit, isn't is in the session.
So it's not where, you know, all of the Melisandre for Salem.
So she's got a life outside of the military.
And it feels like she, you know, one would rather have, you know
that instead of the oppression of being subjugated into the
system, where all you do is fight and For people that don't
really give a crap about you or know who you are, and we'll
never know who you are, as an individual, or value your life.
And the way that, you know, they value the people that are around
them, you're in, you're so other and you're expected to go
through this experience till you die, or I guess get to the age
where you can retire, which doesn't seem to happen that
often. When you can live for a really
long time. Yeah, it isn't like right there
on the horizon, so you can only take so much until there's a
point at which he say this isn't right?
And it doesn't matter if if things get twisted in your mind
to the point where killing innocent people could seem like
the only way out for your society which society and for
your daughter to get out of this from under this system of
slavery, because that's what, But that's the logic at the hold
on. I got something.
This is Breathe Me by the way. We never turn ourselves down.
Well, why wouldn't she just take my God?
I'm so Taylor. Rail.
Sorry, I was getting there. Why wouldn't you just take Rail?
And then she could also take pop of color and just become
Dodgers. Because what kind of life is
that, at least you don't have to have killing people on your
conscience, but when you're in that mentality, you're killing
people already. What it like would you rather
kill people for the cause of Freedom or kill people for the
cause of the society that still, you know, enslaving your people.
So it's just until anything just because of her line and who she
is. Is you know, the best way she
thought to get out is by faking her own death.
Yeah. So it's it's yeah I think the
dodging life is was just I hear you.
I hear what you're saying. I think.
Yeah, it's sort of that rock and a hard place.
And so, yeah. Yeah, no, no, right answer to
that question. That's the point there is
killing people Justified. No, but you're already killing
people. Is that justified?
Like so you think I like that? Train track question, like
mentally, get into a place where different people are going to
make different decisions. So yeah, I see where she's
coming from and I see where everyone in the Spree is coming
from. Although I do think Nick to had
a very personal reason All right, for hers.
But you know, that's the this is going to devolve into a, we
dissect, the morals of motherland.
This is just another episode Another which energy.
Here we go. Off to a good start.
Yeah, it's a tough question. It's a Christian.
Well alright waiting for the easy one.
Well, okay, I think the last one waiting.
So I have a question within a question for the next one.
Okay, but I'm just going to read it out and we'll get to the
second part. One of the, one of our favorite
parts of season. Two was the development of will
instill has partnership. Yeah, how did Will, is
relationship with Scylla evolved throughout the course of the
series? How did it evolve?
Like you like, you know, like, for will emotionally?
Do you mean or Before yeah, for how did willacy Silla at the
beginning of their relationship? All the way through to when, you
know? Yeah.
Well, you know, it starts off as that, you know, General, and,
and Soldier. And you go do what it is that
I'm telling you to do and you're going to execute on the strategy
and the objective that I have in.
My mind and then when she doesn't it you know and such a
personal. So it's such a personal mission
that she sent her on and then when she doesn't deliver on that
which is bringing real home and then, you know, finding out
through the course of their relationship together that she's
in love with real and that's why she didn't do it.
It, you know, it makes Willa have to take a step back and
where she may have wanted to react.
She has to, she has to take a step back and say, okay, this is
the last person to really, you know, be in contact with real.
She's my conduit and we have to find, you know, if We're trying
to create if I'm trying to create this objective and I know
what's coming in the bigger picture of the bigger War that's
coming, it's essential that were able to work together.
So will I kind of has to turn a really be the, you know, emerge
as the leader in the situation and try to find those threads
that get Scylla to see what the fight is really going to be
looking like, why it's so important To be able to connect
with Rail and bring real home and how they're going to be able
to deal with the bigger threat, bigger picture.
So I would say that it starts off, you know, General Soldier
and then it's frustrated and it's angry and it's then, okay,
got to figure this out. And then starting to see those
threads of trust that come in relationships and it becomes
this, this place where trust starts to evolve and then this,
you know, mother-daughter love this, this protection that she
ends up feeling for Scylla and the recognition of maybe the
role that Scylla plays played is playing and potentially can play
in making sure that real is safe.
So as as Willa is always having this mind of strategy, she does
let her guard down and she does let allow Silla in, because
she's she hasn't had that she hasn't been able to trust to
connect to share in the way that she ends up sharing with Rail
and it's because of her kin are with Wasilla and it's because of
her connection to rail. So I think it's not easy.
Trust is not a word that's in, will has provoked a very, very
easily, but if one person did get her to trust, it was Scylla
and that they spent convincing person.
Yeah, she is, she is. And and once Willa shows her,
some of the bigger things that happened, you know, like, with
the witch witch, Bomb and what happened there in, you know,
when we were having our meeting and sylla, realizes what Willa's
mission is really about, that's where they really find that
connection together. So it's a, it's a relationship
that, you know, as we go from beginning to Me closing the door
and having that moment of Saying goodbye, which is just so
epically sad because I'm saying goodbye to her as well as rail.
So, yeah, it's it's it's really nice.
The way they wrote that to evolve incremental B and wrote
Scylla. I wrote Willa to be able to find
that trust So what how did Willa at first see Scylla approaching
real? Like, she just like goat make
friends with her. I mean, it's like you you need
to get her back. So whatever means necessary you
need to make sure she's safe. You need to extract her and it's
it's, you know, she's a soldier. She's used to carrying out
missions. It's like she's part of the
street. So go do your job.
Did she for see the seduction because that's like no say what
the hell I do. Yeah, order.
What do you do? Yeah.
Like till it definitely kept her safe.
No, I really hope that mirror never, you know, like yeah.
No, that was not part of the plan.
That was not part of the strategy.
I don't imagine that that will I had to kind of think through
that as well when she's, you know, trying to To readjust and
get Scylla to see what you were saying, the bigger picture about
how things are going to go down. She's still she's had to adjust
herself. To the fact that this is what's
this is how solo chose to get her daughter.
Well and and she didn't care, she didn't follow through.
Yeah, but you know, through the course of this Willa does come
to trust. I mean that's something that
Through the process of all of this becomes part of her
vocabulary. And she does come to understand
that they are in love. And that, you know, makes one
create different choices potentially and a little
different choices in the way I love real and see protection of
her is different than the way. Scylla loves real and sees the
protection of her. So you know who's right?
I am of course. Please let you know the mother
and Commander. Yeah.
Yeah, but you know, she comes to have that moment where she says,
you made the better choice for her, you may be safer choice for
her. I love this.
Yeah, yeah. You guys killed it so hard in
this. Okay, thank you.
They all God that was. So, I need over and over and
over. I want to watch it again right
now. So good.
Thank you that. Yeah, we, when we were shooting
that it was even when we were rehearsing.
We're like. Okay.
Okay.
We can't, we can't We can't rehearse this too much.
It's like, let's just go through the motions because we were both
kind of there already. Yeah, it's okay.
Okay. Okay, this is this that, that
everybody set up. Let's go.
Yeah. For sure it came through.
So Speaking of Love, though. How will I have?
Wow. How about Willa?
Have felt if she'd been able to attend her daughter's wedding?
Oh, how would you have felt? Well, that would have, you know,
been that beautiful moment where you get to see that, you know,
that celebration of their love, so that would have been amazing.
And don't think that I didn't campaign.
Like, she's like, she's watching from the mycelium.
Come on, come on. Yeah, yeah.
So you know experience their celebration yeah, for sure for
sure yeah. And then she could tell us what
the fowls were. That was the big no one can
remember. It was written on.
It was written and given to them in the moment kind of thing.
So everyone in the fandom has been like, but what were the
found? Where are they?
And no one, no one can I think they finally got it somewhere?
But Yeah, that was just funny. Okay, speaking of super easy
questions and sings. Oh boy, we got welcome to.
So we got to witness a beautiful reunions between Willa and
Edwin. In season 3, which was acted.
It was intense. Beautiful and wonderful.
So by both you and hrothgar how did Willow process that whole
situation? And did you know much about the
backstory of their relationship? Well, no, we to answer the
second question first, that was a lot on us.
I mean, we talked about their relationship a lot.
We talked about the relationship with the writers and it's
reference to quite a bit, you know, by by people by, you know,
everybody talks about. their relationship at some point, the
members of the family, but In that moment, you know,
processing the reunions. It's it's a it was a tough scene
to do because we'll has sort of in this half, altered state and
its really the moment where Edwin touches her hand and sort
of, you know, pulls her around and turns her around that.
That will a kind of lat And comes into the moment and is
there present with them like truly for a moment and it was
its first of all, kudos to hrothgar who is just amazing and
a wonderful actor and didn't matter where the camera was
pointing, he was always giving it.
So even when the cameras on the back of his head, he was still
giving me, you know, 1001 percent emotion.
So kudos to To him, but it's it's a different.
The way we looked at it was, if you had that one moment, that
one sentence that thought that you wanted to be able to share
with that person. If you got that chance to say,
the one thing that you needed to say, what would it be?
And so will is able to come to enough to say, you know, it was,
it was about her. This was all about real and give
that line. So, it was, it was a tough scene
to do. It was easy because the actors
make it easy, you know, having sill on one side and Quinn and,
and then having Edwin on the other side that that it was just
such a kind of everything coming home.
For Willa and tough to do because it's dancing between
reality and being in this poison Netherworld.
Yeah, I think that it was very, you made it very obvious that it
wasn't Willa, Willa all the time that you had that mycelium.
Yeah. The fact that she's in the
mycelium and that's obviously got to be a part of where she's
coming from. Yeah.
And so that's, that's kind of
how we looked at it. Yeah.
So does that answer your question?
Yeah. No.
Absolutely. You were.
Okay, okay. Okay.
Yeah, and it also added an extra layer to to Willa.
So that's it makes for a very interesting character.
Yeah, I kind of swinging between being present in reality and not
being there. Hmm.
Yeah. I have a really happy question
to ask you, okay? So one of the greatest tragedies
of the show, what would she say to her
daughter? well, I think she would
Reinforce. The Journey of what a witch is
and should be, and how Powers should be used, and why?
And really try to get her to see what where the situations
started to go sideways and get her to understand, sort of what
the abuse of the witches were so that she could.
Understand why Willow was doing what she was doing.
And the other thing is, you know, it's not an easy choice,
to leave your family and to leave your family for what you
perceive to be the safety of your family.
And so to really try to get her to understand that mindset of
the level of, you know, the Just Just DE protection.
ISM that Willow was was looking for looking to provide and how
and the other thing is, you know, like you talked about in
the opening, you know, that real other situation, how easy it is
to be discriminated against. And so all of that to empower
real with knowledge to help her, understand how she should be
using her abilities and for what purpose and, You know, to to
have a conversation about choices and what kind of choice
is, what the future holds and what kind of choices can be
made, I think she would go into that mother role of really
trying to have a dialogue about that on the one side and on the
other side, there's so much missed time.
There's just so much lost time. They're the other side.
You know, if If she could be with her, it would be to, you
know, sing a song and have that you know what she talks about in
the end. It's like we could have a
picnic, we could sing our songs. We could do those things that we
never got to do while she was growing up.
I could burn mushrooms for you in the back, did burn my finger.
So I think that you know, and the other part of that would be
Really listening to the experience that real has had.
Excuse me and what it's been like for her and just asking
some questions. I'm trying to understand the way
that she's been processing through this whole journey and
you know kind of where she's at mentally.
So I think it would be that. Oh my God, sitting over T and
mushrooms and having those conversations and and Hoping
that rail, even if she doesn't, even if she can't, quite forgive
to understand and find the places of understanding without
forcing some sort of, you know, forgiveness or anything. that
may or may not come in time, but that there could be some some
kind of common ground Well now, I want that saying, thanks.
Yeah. I think I think that's where it
would start and then all the places it could go.
And there's so much history there to be explored.
There's so much history to understand about.
Oh, we're on a timer. Okay, we'll have to start this
again so much history to understand about, you know,
what, like, where all of this started and the whole journey
and all the past. And there's just so much there
to explore. Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah. Maker.
All right. so you've held all of the hard questions, I think
they're all the hard ones, Brie you have anything else to host a
Oh my gosh, I mean once I get started I wouldn't stop so
because I could talk forever about motherland.
So I think we should ask what your favorite moment or memory
was while working on motherland. Oh.
All right. What was my favorite moment?
Oh well. So that scene where Scylla and I
I mean I have so many moments, a fun one, Grazie one was when we
come out of the van and we're like, yeah, and then we go and
around. And, you know, we're Where rail
is being held and then the next scene is, you know, I go in.
But before that, I get to come in and break somebody's neck and
throw them aside. And then room, where is she?
And you like breaking people's next?
Yeah, that was fun. It was great.
We practice and practice, and practice, and practice.
And then I get in there and I was like, so jacked up.
When adrenaline and so excited to do it and my, you know, and
we're calling action and we rehearse, rehearse rehearse.
And I come around and I just came flying in the room like a
thousand miles an hour. And I put my, my, my arm around
his neck and I promptly go somersaulting right over to
talk, but that was all. But um, yeah, that's my just
like tripped on my own two feet sliding in.
So I'm sure all the stunt people are like, and this is why actors
don't do stuff. So, that's why you have stunt
people. But it was one of those scenes
where it was better if I could do it because, you know, like it
is me literally breaking his neck and then you just see that
that will a moment. So, yeah, that was fun.
Fun practicing for that I like I like doing those little stunts
like that, I'd imagine so doing it when I don't break his neck.
So he and then, of course, there are those scenes where, you
know, the the scene where we actually get to be in the
mycelium but we were we were shooting it all on the big green
screen. And so it was just the other.
The the heartfelt raw one was then when Rail and will You
know, after she did, it's like the the which plague is crawling
up Willa, and then they meet in the mycelium, that moment was
just wonderful and punishing and grueling.
And hi Caitlin Tough, by Caitlin.
See, she couldn't even handle it was so, so devastating, like,
you know, the cast, obviously she wasn't.
Credible to work with and just so present there all the time,
with all her emotions and her authenticity, and all the crew
were just lovely. And so kind and respectful and
collaborative, you know, especially when you're just
having to like failure, you know, tear your guts out on a
green screen, you know, I like on an empty stage, I mean,
that's the easiest thing you could ever do, right?
You know. Just having an imagination of
what it would look like, you know?
And then you go from that to like cutting her throat and like
doing that whole thing. So that was also very fun doing
the nightmare. So, you know, there were, there
were lots of fun little moments. I got to happened everyone.
We spoke to the talked about how wonderful it was on set, and how
much how just nice the whole vibe was.
So I can imagine it was Was a great place to be so it's just
so collaborative. Like everybody from all the
crew, all the cast's, everybody behind the scenes from the
office. To, you know, I mean we were
getting tested so often as well as we were shooting through
covid and just you know, everybody just I think I think
patience was the virtue of the day because everybody just had
to, you know, do things that were way outside of what You
would normally do in the world of you know, living shooting
through a pandemic. So everybody just really
approached it with patience and kindness and that's, that's all,
you know, that's all we could ask for on a set like that.
Yeah, every all cast and crew, that we've talked to have been
absolutely lovely and definitely getting to talk to the crew has
been really cool because they need to be shown.
They do so much like so much so much.
None of this is just Just they're so they're just so
collaborative and so involved. And you know, just working with
the crew to make sure that you know, when you're ripping your
guts out that, you know, that they have what they need and we
have what we need and it was just such a symbiotic, you know,
if there was just so much symbiosis between everybody, so
it was wonderful. Yeah, really wonderful amazing.
The last thing I wanted to ask you was about you very talented
dog. I just wanted to talk about your
dad. They are always so cute.
He's like, no, I'm hungry. I don't blame you sorrow.
He's a little love. Can I get him?
Wait. Yeah, go ahead.
My dog has been whiny our interview.
Oh, now she's dead asleep. Okay.
Your key. Zorro is a combination between
the two Is my little York, honey.
You are shaved and she's wearing a tutu.
Okay. Okay, I'll let you know.
He, yes, he is. Oh, you're so cute.
What's yours is name? This is Brooklyn Heights.
Brooklyn. You're so you're so cute.
How old she is. 1200! She acts like a puppy.
He's just over two and Has that puppy energy and he's yes, he he
is my. So the face of all of my social
media? Yeah, I love seeing him learn
all his new tricks. I'm like, my dogs would never be
trading at is really cute and then we tried it.
We're try it at home, like, okay.
We got, we have to learn as much as he has to learn what we're
trying. We're trying.
Yeah, he's got that little worker personality.
So it's a go, yeah. We Didn't start early enough.
They're not learning anything. Well, we didn't even know it
existed. So it's all thanks to his little
puppy, his little social puppy daycare.
That's amazing. Well, thanks for letting us meet
him. You're welcome, get set.
Hang out with Zorro for a second, but um, we we want to
know if you have any final words for listeners before you wrap up
the discussion. Yeah, you know, I if there's one
thing that the show has, you know, that I've taken away.
It's about, you know, just being more tolerant than being more
accepting and creating safe spaces for people to be who they
are. And, you know, the fandom has
been incredible. And so kind and so generous and
really, to keep that generosity. T going within, you know, your
communities and the people that you're reaching out to and the
people who are reaching out to you, and, and I know that the
fandom is, you know, taking resources, trying to get the
show to come back and make sure that you are taking your
resources and taking care and take care of you and the people
around you just as much because that's, you know, it's it's our
Collective well-being. I think that makes things
better. Long run.
So that's that's that's what I take away through this journey
is just making sure that it's important to care for one
another and listen and, you know, have tolerance and
kindness a little generosity. We can one another, you know, in
generosity of kindness. So, yeah, that's that's what I
get from it. And I would encourage everybody
to keep amplifying amplifying the voices, Voices, and
amplifying. You know, the like when you
think about what the show is based on its voice and its sound
and that's where the energy and the where which has gained their
energy from and that's not an accident.
To be able to be able to amplify voices and not steal voices.
Make sure everybody's voices heard.
It's it's critical and more important now than ever to, to
share invoices and Sharon one another's.
So that's, yeah, I would just encourage people to continuing
to continue to build the communities that you have.
And I understand there's lots of benefits.
Lots of community that has come out of the show and that's just
so lovely. That's I mean, what else can you
hope for? Yeah, if that I don't think if
it, if it hadn't been for motherland, we wouldn't have
found our little family with yeah, podcast family with
Kaitlyn and the aura. So like his Stuart, I started
the podcast just because we're like hey, You know, I really
want to talk about the show in depth and she was like yeah
let's do it. So we started the podcast and
then along the way through the whole convention thing, I got to
meet Caitlyn and then Caitlin came on board and elevated.
The podcast to another level. I took over Caitlin took over
and we became sort of a force in a way and that's our goal.
Like you said, it's just to make the voices of, you know, all of
the lgbtq community heard and you know, kind of go out there
and campaign for the media and the visibility.
So thank you for coming to talk to us and walking us through
some of Will has path because it was wonderful.
And it was amazing to get to watch that on screen.
So thank you for your part in bringing her.
Life. Thank you.
It was nice to meet you and good
to see you now. And thank you for having me on
and it's just been so lovely to be able to you know, have these
chats about things that are that are fun and interesting and also
you know have have a little bit of an undercurrent of reality to
them example and what's important in life.
So I thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you. And with that we've been big gay
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