Hello and welcome to Big Gay energy.
I'm Bree. I'm Fiora and I'm Caitlin come
along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer
media representation matters. And we're here to talk about it.
Hello everybody, we are Beyond thrilled to have today's guest
with us. They are the co Creator writer
director, producer of the very important television series.
Welcome to hey, guys, it's so nice to be here.
It is so amazing to have you here.
We've been trying to get this for a while we're so excited to
talk to you. Oh, it's a total pleasure.
And yeah, I think some fans of your podcast, reached out to me
on Twitter and we're like you should really do this and I was
like, great, I will I will follow your command.
Yeah. We love our fans.
Yes, we do. I say, as we now have some
anyway, we've been talking to crew of various TV shows and
just basically introducing our audience to different jobs
behind the scenes. Now, you have, probably one of
the biggest jobs. What does a co-creator and
showrunner do? Well, that's a really good
question. It's different depending on the
show but I think you know what being Showrunner means, is that
sort of the buck stops with you creatively when it comes to all
the creative elements of the show, whether it's the scripts
or the casting or hiring directors, or ultimately, kind
of what it's delivered in the head.
It's and then also, you know, very often that person but not
always, that person is also the person who who created the show.
So in the case of me and Abby with league and also Desta ref
who's really We integrally involved in the entire process,
it sort of meant seeing it through, you know, it's there
like insane job where you have to have the crazy Creative
Vision and then you have to solve like 1 million tiny
problems on the way to actually making it that like it's just
insane. The number of things that there
are Yeah, it sounds like stuff. I mean it seems like things will
just pop up left and right that you have to kind of put out
fires. And yeah, I've always loved that
combination, you know. I think if I just loved the sort
of creative imagining part, like I'd be very tempted to write
novels or something where you don't have to deal with the rest
of the world, but I kind of love that intersection of, you know,
you have this crazy idea and then it's you And a couple
people sitting alone in a room and then suddenly you're on a
baseball field and it starts raining halfway through the day
and everyone is like, oh God, what are we doing with the rest
of the day? What does this mean about the
schedule would have? You know the Wardrobe is wet.
Now we have to eat. Oh, and it's I guess that
intersection of sort of having ideas that you really want to
share with people and then kind of pulling together this this
sort of incredible and very Very large group of talented people
to make it happen. It's amazing.
I can't even imagine the hours spent just getting everything
right? So.
Well, I don't know if you always get everything right, you know,
sometimes like your idea of rate changes or is even like bettered
by something that happens that you didn't imagine or an idea
that an actor has or or something else that happens.
In the unfolding of the scene. So ultimately what you're seeing
on screen is really the work of an enormous team.
Is there anything that was supposed to happen?
But changed for the better. Oh, gosh, yes.
I mean so many things, you know, I think like the most obvious
example for us, is we had a lot of actors who are really skilled
improvisers and that starts with Abby, but it's also definitely
true of Darcy. And by me so like de Mello who
plays Clans who's also a writer on the show is like one of the
funniest improvisers that Ever worked with and is also like
British. So she's doing English, he's
improvising in an American accent, which is insane.
You know. But then like, you know, the the
baseball sequences are another great example, where we have
these incredible, real players that were working with Justine
Siegel who's our coordinator for baseball was the first woman to
ever coach under Major League staff and their jerseys in
Cooperstown. And you know, the way that that
Ed's and her perspective and the real players who were playing
the baseball players. You know, brings so much to it,
but also there's something incredibly fun and I think this
mostly comes through when I'm directing where you're like,
okay, something happened in the day, suddenly we have two hours
to get this scene. We were supposed to have five
hours for. So, what's the like, really
beautiful idea that captures, everything that I need to
capture? That's maybe like a little
simpler and more elegant than than what I had in mind.
All right, let's just push forward here.
So do you pitch the show? And then give up the rights to
your production company or network.
Like, how does that work? If they cancel a show just like,
curious about like the background of this stuff like
not necessarily for a certain show?
Just, I mean in general, since you we've been having a lot of
like, A bit of experience, just a bit.
And we like, did an episode about this kind of stuff from
all the shows that got cancelled in 2022.
Yeah. So it really depends on the
show, but in the case of League, Sony has the rights to the
movie. So they have the rights to the
show, their the studio Amazon, which is the network distributes
it, right? So Sony retains the rights, no
matter what. They have What's called the
underlying material, which in this case is the movie.
Speaking of the movie, yeah. What was the process for?
Adapting it into a series and getting it up.
All over the place. I think, you know, we loved the
movie and we grew up on the movie and I think every person
involved in the show has a slightly different relationship
to it for me. I sort of found it as like a
little queer kid who wasn't surrounded by queer content and
was playing a lot of Little League.
Baseball, which my dad made me do is probably a little bit too
strong of way of saying it, but like strongly encouraged me to
do, and I sort of felt undercover as like, a boy on the
team. And I was like, you know, I
didn't have any words to describe what I was feeling but
like, OG, you know, kind of felt like, oh, no, I'm going to get
found out. And, and there was something
about the movie that kind of Just gave you the feeling of
like, oh, it's okay to be on the field.
Even if you don't look like or sound like her act like the what
people expect to find on the field and then a few years ago I
started looking into the real history behind it and you know
sort of I think had the feeling that there was probably a really
big and important chapter. We are history underneath it and
then the more I looked the more you find and you know the the
most obvious thing was the stories of African-American
women who weren't allowed to play in the league, but players
like Connie Morgan Tony Stone, maybe Johnson and you know their
lives of others who maybe didn't get as far who went on to play
professionally in the Negro Leagues and you know even Penny
Marshall I think has said publicly and she certainly said
to me in a be like oh that's a story that I really wish that I
had gotten to tell and then beyond that, there were these
stories of queer women who sort of Had to make themselves look
like something they weren't or give up certain parts of
themselves in order to get that opportunity.
But at the same time, the way that Darcy cards character says
in the pilot like they kind of got to rob the bank.
They got these opportunities to make money and have a team and
become a different version of themselves.
And in some cases, get independence from a lot of the
structures that were We're sort of common for women at the time
and and so you know, is incredible.
Just personally, an incredible life experience kind of growing
into all of that research and getting to know a lot of the
people involved and pretty early on in the process.
Abby and I already knew each other a little bit in New York,
and I was kind of talking to her about what I was thinking about
doing, and she got excited about it and we started talking about
it. Either.
And, and it really, you know, came from the both of us from
the start. That's great, our third host,
for a big, a energy grew up with A League of Their Own and loved
it. And she was with telling us
about the show before. So early on she was so excited.
She couldn't be here today, but I just want you to know how much
this show has meant to her as well.
I mean, obviously it touched so many people, but to see her get
so excited about this show. It made it made it even better
for us. So what do you think Fred?
Her excited about it. Anyway, I think that she she and
I both grew up playing sports and Being queer and playing
sports. Yeah.
And I know that she and I had a lot of similar experiences where
we felt like we had to kind of the undercover in some ways,
especially me, considering where I'm from, but I know that it
meant a lot to her just to see something from that meant so
much to her, is it as growing up as a kid somewhere that she
could go? And just see this warm kind of
welcoming special movie and then see something that was even more
representative. On TV at a time when we were
feeling like daggum, all of our shows are getting cancelled,
what's going on? And then the show comes along
that just shows, you know, so many aspects of what we were
looking for that. I think she just couldn't
couldn't be more excited about it.
I think it's really taken a place to surf as one of her
favorites. Well, Thank you.
Thank you. And thank her for that.
Anything, that's a lot of what, you know, I think again, Abby
would have a slightly different perspective and so we destined
that sort of the soul of the show in a lot of ways.
For me, I think, what's been incredible about it is something
really similar, sort of putting yourself back in the story.
And finding yourself in stories that feel familiar and League of
Their Own is a movie that we sort of think of as like a
classic with a lot of Americana in it, right?
Which it really is. And then the fact that that
story really in reality centers, queer women, and queer people,
and queer people of color, is it makes you think about yourself a
little different, you know, and the idea that we don't, In a
world that's perfect for us now. I mean, that's an understatement
on so many levels, but I think it's an act of heroism is queer
people to, to find joy in that world and to make lives that are
full of meaning and fall in love with the people that you want to
fall in love with. And just the idea that you know,
our history while there's a lot of tragedy in.
It isn't only tragic and that people have always been fighting
that fight and found a way to have really joyful.
A full lives, despite the adversity yet to me that you
know, personally has really meant a lot.
That whole thing could just be a quote you just
know like that. Pretty much summed up everything
that I felt in and I feel like in an even better way than I
could think it's oh Yeah, absolutely.
But speaking of it being awesome since its release like their own
has been recognized by the Human Rights Campaign.
Several cast and crew members have been nominated for awards,
what do you think sets early get their own apart from other?
Queer shows, boy, I don't, I don't know.
I mean, first of all I I like celebrate the queer narratives
in the show and then also the this is a show that hopefully
speaks to all kinds of people and people can find themselves
in the same way, you know, Camille and Johnny said it
really well where he was like I've been as ever since I was a
kid watching stories that send her straight white men and not
even thinking about it, you know, just sort of putting
myself in the story. So I think in a lot of ways,
this show, you know, there's parts of it that are a love
letter to queer people. There's also parts of it that
are invitation to not queer people.
To just step into our shoes and are y.
Road and enjoy this story that really is universal.
I think in terms of what makes the show stand stand out, I
guess I would say I think we're more standing on the shoulders
of other career shows and trying to build on some of what they've
done but also really standing on the shoulders of the real
stories and the real women who had those experiences.
Has and played played ball and everything else for me, the
thing that makes it different or special just from shows in
general is that sense of Joy underneath it.
And even the really hard Parts, you know, for this is a spoiler
for anyone who hasn't watched the show.
But the bar read things like that, which came from, you know,
real stories of people that we are friends with.
And And talk to you that that it's told through a lens that at
the end of the day, it's worth it to still live as yourself and
play. The sport that you love, but but
not give up the parts of yourself that Society doesn't
necessarily support. So I would say it's like the joy
to me that really is the thing that I love the most, in the
show sort of Joy without looking away from the hard things.
I lost my train of thought. I am so sorry.
Okay happens to me cuz if you take a th I remember now.
So not only Like A League of Their Own doesn't just allow you
to like see yourself because of so many diverse storylines.
I feel like it allows people to learn more about others and how
different experiences can be. Especially when you compare
Carson and Max. Because like two different both
want the same goal. But it's an interesting
juxtaposition. Yes.
And I think that's just incredible.
Yeah, it's a, you know, we talked about the sort of pilot
which is the inciting incident for the show, sort of being a
moment where a door opens for one person and it doesn't open
for another person just based on their race.
And the social construct around that and and what that meant at
the time, and that's very much based on real events.
The the scene we're maxing Let's go to try out for the league in.
The pilot is, is very close to what happened to me me Johnson
and her friend Rita when she tried to try out for the league
and made me looking back on her. That sort of chapter in her
story was like, well, when I played pro ball, I didn't have
to wear a skirt. There was something kind of bad
ass in that knowing that we didn't want to minimize the
effect of that. But We also wanted to, to
position that scene and that event as not defining for Max
and she's going to find her own door and her own world.
Even if she has to make it herself which I think, you know,
it was heavily influenced by me, Connie and Tony Story, heavily
influenced by a lot of our writers and ultimately Max this
story is about Out, you know, the shows about teams different
kinds of teams, right? There's a team that you play
with on the field. There's also a team that kind of
gets you to the fields, right family or a chosen family
friends. And so Max's story, you think we
took as an opportunity to sort of explore both sides of that.
But it is something that I think people it was one of the biggest
sort of structural, I guess risks in the show.
Like there hasn't really been a show that is structured in
exactly that way before with these sort of parallel stories
that intersect and these kind of side-by-side worlds.
And and that was it was an incredible challenge engine,
incredible privilege, you completely nailed it.
Yeah. Well, I think the experience of
making something and I'm guessing you guys and a lot of
your audience are probably creative people too.
So you know, the feeling of when you've made something and I see
like every tattered Edge and every I'm like, oh, that
happened because of that and know that moment and I don't
know if we got that right? But it's wonderful.
A when other people don't see that and when they bring
themselves to the show and make it mean something to them, like
that's something that Ultimately doesn't come from us.
It's like we build a house and we let people into it and people
decide whether they want to live in the house and and it's just
been incredible. Watching how much, how much the
audience and the fans of the show have sort of let the show
into their lives. I've never had an experience
like that before. Well, I'ma tell you right now,
I'm sitting on the couch, eating some chips.
So I'm going to be here for a while in the house.
I'm really glad feel free to the house is working.
It's like it's wonderful. It's gonna put it that way.
I'm so glad. Yeah, it's such a strange
feeling. You know, when you think it was
really for years, four and a half four years, something like
that of of living with these histories and exploring the
ideas and working with Abby and working with other writers and
everything. And then there's sort of one day
where you're like, okay, here it is.
And then you're like yeah, that's been inside your head for
so long. Is that in lie?
Like it belongs to other people and it's really wonderful that
experience. It's insane.
How long like these shows take to get developed and actually
put out there and I don't think anybody realizes that.
So I was like four and a half years, you said.
Yeah. And In fairness they don't all
take that long. This one went through a bunch of
twists and Turns and and different chapters along the way
and it still is going through different twists and turns and
chapters. You know it was it was never
going to be easy because of the movie because of the stories
because of the complexity of what we're trying to do.
So I've I've gotten to a place where so like quote the Tom
Hanks line from the movie like I just embraced the hard and like
the heart is What makes it great and and, and that's been, you
know, a part of a part of the journey, the whole way along,
but also I wouldn't change it. Meaning, you know, the great
thing about that development process, was that, by the time,
we finally showed up on set, we really knew what we wanted to
do. It's great.
You talked about talking to the actual people and hearing their
stories. Why is it so important to
accurately? Tell their stories of just queer
people and people of color in general from the 1940s?
That's a great question. I think, you know, on the one
hand just like for me personally I would say those people and
Maybelle Blair is obviously someone who's Publicly and came
out around our Premiere at the age of 95 but there's lots of
others to they've really come to mean something to me and to all
of us. So you wanna you want them to
see themselves in the show and at the same time and I think
this happens with a lot of shows that represent historically
marginalized group. There's the additional pressure
of we don't get a lot of shots, you know, TV doesn't we don't
have 27 different. Lesbian cop shows on TV or film,
that is so funny. So I think you know what happens
in the writers room in the Making process is when people
from those groups are involved, you feel that duo pressures of
of wanting to really represent your experience and be authentic
and and then knowing that like you, you're incredibly lucky to
get to do it at all and you really want to make something
out of that opportunity. And I would say like Telling
telling these stories now, you know, when I grew up which I
graduated from college in 2003, like we didn't have there was
like nothing about queer people in the like sex, ed, but there
was no like History unit that focused on queer history.
Obviously like people of color, black people, especially black
women like large parts of that history.
Including a lot of what happened in the The factories in WWII
have either been lost or edited out or Dean to not be as
important. So getting to tell some of those
stories in a way that people can see themselves in it, and it's
joyful and fun, and a comedy. And at the same time, it's maybe
giving them a story that they didn't have before.
I think that's part of what we felt.
Like we were getting to do with the show, you're actually
keeping their stories alive. Making sure people don't forget
them. Yeah, I mean that that is the
Hope and and I love you guys probably know this.
But like I love the history and the real anecdotes that we find
along the way and it's been so fun, even on social media, just
to watch people, like oh start to like order some of those
books and learn a little more about the history underneath it.
You don't have to you don't have to know any of that to enjoy the
show. The shows basically like a good
time and a lot of it is It's such a it's just the most of the
spirit of it is pretty fun. I think the the sort of what I
think is important about the show.
Hopefully speaks with a little bit of a quieter voice where
it's not saying like this is important, you should care about
this but it's just bringing you into that, that world.
It's very interesting because you do get like, this is
important, not like directly, but especially with there being
so much comedy. D.
The balanced for you to be able to do.
That was just insane. And also it being a comedy and
itself is amazing because we don't have enough comedies.
Yes. Like, totally, we don't and, you
know, that, that's something that's so amazing about the
movie, which is in some ways they think we're the tone of the
show. Sort of, it's not that it's the
same, but it's sort of it definitely grew from there,
right? The movie is, it said, In the
middle of World War Two, historically of dark time.
Not not often the place for the funniest comedies, and it's also
just well, what was that? Sounds like there's like a tiger
on the go, so, so yes, it has. We is that Sophie?
Comedic, the sort of balance of the comedy and drama and the,
the the movie has that you can sort of Imagine The like Oscar
bait version of the movie. It's a little more like capital,
I important and instead like, Penny told the story in this
beautiful human really funny way with these iconic and really
flawed characters. And and I think that's part of
what has made the movie. So long-lasting is, is that sort
of comedic approach? But I also definitely feel like
and and, and again, Abby your desks or any of the other
writers make put it differently. and I feel like I discover
emotion in comedy and I discover comedy in some of my most
emotional moments and it was really something that in
developing the show Abby and I looked at each other and we were
like well we don't want to Sometimes they think when you
have a show that has a balance of both, you sort of you, wind
up being in the middle, you know, it's like the comedy is
not going to be too absurd and the emotional Stakes won't be
too heavy. We were kind of like, we're
instead just going to really go for it on both sides.
Oh, you did. Yeah.
And see what happens, a plus, but it was also a place just to
say it that Don't always in television.
Now get to make a pilot for the show and the fact that we got to
make a pilot, we got to see the tone and we were like okay and
we could kind of adjusted a few degrees and go from there.
I think that gave us the confidence to really go.
So you did start out with a pilot not like a full season
order. No.
Yeah. We started with the fact that we
actually wrote a, you know, in terms of what those four years
where we originally receive the show as a half hour, we wrote a
season of the half-hour show, and then I think Amazon was
like, well, we're never going to be able to afford.
This show. Is a half-hour.
It should be an hour. We were like, okay, great.
Maybe you could have told us that before hand and then you
need a pilot for the, our version and then wrote the our
version. So that's what I mean, where
it's like, we really got to live with the characters and refine
them in a couple. Frame formats and a couple
different sort of drafts in a way that you don't always get to
do on TV. But also it's fun for fans of
the show to know that there's another version of season.
One out there. Somewhere seems on people's
computers hackers. Yeah, I don't think it's going
to get that. Why is it our cheaper than a
half hour? That was my question.
I mean, the economics of hour-long television are
different partly because you can Syndicate, the more and partly
because ours are basically, we're sort of the Big Show's
tend to go. Not, not all the time, but so
hours in general just are sort of meat at a higher cost per
minute, if that makes sense. Gotcha, then half hours,
usually. But I don't, I mean, the real
answer is like, I'm not sure, that's just what happens.
We just got more and I'm not Complaining.
Yeah, don't don't, complain Caitlin.
I think, I was curious. There's a huge difference.
Yes. Okay, Haley.
So, I have a question when you guys cast Rosie O'Donnell, that
was such a freaking wonderful, homage to the movie that and was
that something that you guys like wanted to do from the
beginning? And is there a possibility for
more cameos? There's certainly, if there are
future Seasons, they certainly is a possibility for more cameos
and the way that the rosy thing came about was was really
wonderful. I mean, I think we are
originally, sort of I've set out saying, well maybe we'll do kind
of more direct links with the movie at some point.
But first we really want the show to stand on its own.
So we were sort of developing the Ark of the season and Abby
knew Rosie. I can't completely remember how
but they've gotten to know each other and Abby was like I was
thinking maybe I'd ask her come to come to the writers room and
talk to the writers and we were excited and nervous.
And all the things because they think at that point really, you
know, no one really knew what we were doing and we came in and we
started Rosie came in and we pitched sort of the ref season.
She was like, I like it. You know, here's what I think
and then she was like and, you know, something that I could do
is like in this gay bar. Maybe there's a person like this
that and she sort of pitched us a little bit like what what she
wanted to do and we were like, yeah, that that sounds great.
So like every other part of the show, that was a real real
collaboration and it was such a joy.
You know, she was in my episode that I wrote and directed and
was just like such in that episode.
There was a lot of moments where I really like pinched myself
about what we were getting to do and that was definitely one of
them. and if you come in here, Bri because of her Mike, she
said I can imagine Don't sue me. All right, we'll see.
So the next question is from Fiora and I want to make sure to
read it forward forward because she wrote this out.
So one of the most incredible episodes in the series, I
believe it's 6, which is an episode, you directed.
There seems to be a lot of subtle references to The Wizard
of Oz throughout the entire episode Carson is asked, if
asked, if she is a friend of Dorothy, both Carson and Max.
Across through curtains when entering queer spaces, the
golden Lighting in parts, house is like the yellow brick road.
Where these choices comparing Dorothy, entering oz to the
characters entering a whole new world.
Yes. I mean first of all thank you
for that question. You could watch that episode
very closely which is it was you had to like just take a moment
after the episode we had to tell you called because a while yeah
well that that's amazing again that she sort of let it mean
something to hurt and yeah I mean you know obviously Wizard
of Oz is a huge reference Send and sort of part of queer
storytelling or there's a lot of queer inferences Into The Wizard
of Oz. And then it has the historical
reference of like, friends of Dorothy, which like, nobody
exactly knows if that really came from The Wizard of Oz.
But it seems like it must have somehow and we early on in the
writers room and talked about using a movie As a parallel and,
and sort of framing one episode with a movie and The Wizard of
Oz jumped out to me for all the reasons that we're talking
about, right? And the idea that like the
answers inside, you all along as Dorothy, says, in The Wizard of
Oz and that, you sort of have to travel someplace completely new
in order to find yourself. I think we're the Kind of the
Touchstone thematic pieces that obviously really resonate with
what Carson and Max are both going through in the episode in
their own specific ways. I'm really glad she noticed the
curtains. I spent a lot of time explaining
how why the curtains were important.
But at the same time, you know, in basing the episode on The
Wizard of Oz, we sort of wanted to Both celebrate that as a text
in a set of references for the time but then also interrogate
it in a way because obviously The Wizard of Oz is like you
know, is sort of well I guess just say the cast is entirely
white and clients in the show sees it really differently.
Then Carson does or value. Does right?
So and that really came from be solely, Camilla who plays
clients who also sort of wrote or sort of spontaneously
generated claims his big speech about Dorothy in The Writers
room. And so we wanted to really play
play the two sides of that reference and and celebrated in
question it at the same time which I think is very much in
keeping with the spirit of the show in general.
Only a different color. Yeah, yeah.
Well, I want to get, it's been who came up with it, so it
sounds like I'm celebrating a line that I wrote, but but she's
like, she's not even paying them, making them go on a
magical adventure and it's the factory, and the extra hours,
she's having to work supposed to because she's volunteering.
The war and, you know, is Dorothy like a nice person
trying to find her way home or is she like a horrible dictator
is sort of like the question behind it.
I love clients so much. That's like one of the
characters that are related to so much because I will go in
those rants about media. And I absolutely adore classes
obsession with comic books, I really do.
I do too and I'll say there's not a lot of things in the show
that like the show has a lot of layers in the sense of like, you
know, the writer would do a pass at something and then I would do
a pass and then Abby would do a pass and then we would do punch
up so at the end of the day you're like whose idea was this.
This is what did I write in here?
I can't, I can't really remember but I put glances the story in
the pilot about how clean spray. It's a letter to Wonder Woman
sort of like ranting at them, for what they're doing her
character. And instead they publish like a
for sentence version of the letter, that's just like great
job happened to me when I was a kid.
I wrote like a very long critical.
Say to and sent it to X-Men and the healing and just printed
like a force in its thing, that was like, Hey, I really love the
issue. And so that was, it was a little
thing that I put into the character that I'm not as Brave
or smart or many other things as Clean Cities, but it like, it
helped me really to hurt the surgery.
Think it's my gosh. That's awesome.
Things like that happens. Yeah, but what was your beef
with X-Men? Honestly, I can't really
remember feeling as an adult. You look back.
And you're like, yeah, I wrote them probably like A three-page
Treatise and their letters Pages like one page long and, you
know, they're, they're just probably very nice 20-somethings
who are trying to do their job. But like what I really felt at
that moment in my life was just this real sense.
Like how is this? Okay that I think is like I
don't know. The the intensity that people
feel about stories and the idea that clients, you know, can't
exactly figure out how to find herself in this world.
So she's figuring out that through through living in this
imaginary world in her head. It's very much how I felt as
like a young queer person wears. Like not really sure how to do
any of this. Yes, I'm gonna go in here for a
while in comic books and and the X-Files and that was me and
Buffy. Oh yeah, I mean but he's
incredible and and it's how it's what I think about when I make
things now to is like you're making that experience for
people so it's like I always got to ask myself the question like
where are you? Taking people.
That's like a fun. One Journey or an adventure and
then what are you? Kind of giving them to take back
with them if that makes sense. Oh yeah, that's it.
That's, it's like one of my favorite things about media and
general, but speaking of like seeing yourself We recently
spoke to Julie Robinson about how impactful Uncle Burt was
with, Max is exploration of gender expression.
How was that? Whole narrative developed, it's
a great question. And so the real truth is it's a
really good example sorry. It's a really good example of
kind of what I was saying before where like people's perspectives
and ideas get piled on top of each other and what basically
this is a long-winded way of me saying I can't exactly remember
how Uncle Burt first entered the narrative but one of our writers
whose wonderful and fantastic He sowed ophea who also wrote on
the Chinko and is a playwright. When we were first meeting with
her, she talked about how she had done a lot of work in her
own place on genealogy, and sort of family experiences and how
they're passed down. And we knew enough about Max it
at that point, to know that Tony and Edgar her parents were going
to be a really big part of her story.
And I think something in that conversation made us feel like,
okay. Let's spend a minute and Really
imagine the bigger world. That Max comes from and what the
story of her family has been as part of the Great Migration
coming up from the south and how long they've been there and
Edgar's lived in town longer than Tony.
And and in doing that, I think we we started to talk about how
you first find queerness. And we knew that for Carson, she
was going to start to find it on this team.
And we also knew that in a story, the sort of role of the
team especially in the, the sort of first chunk of the season is,
is taken by her family, that sort of team that gets you to
the field. So, we started to talk about
like what are those mirrors that you start to find in your own
family that it first? Maybe you you think?
Oh, that person's exactly like me.
And and in reality, of course, they're not because no one's
ever a perfect mirror of your experience or your own Journey
with gender or anything else. But we wanted to develop a
really positive relationship for form X in that sense.
And I think we then started to research trans stories from the
time and their incredible stories there.
About the factories about people passing, you know?
And, and again, just that reminder that people have always
sort of experience gender really differently and trans.
People have always existed in non-binary.
People have always existed. And yeah, our society in our
vocabulary is maybe starting to catch up to that, which is
wonderful, but none of this is new on any level.
And, and then lie really brought, I mean, it's really
hard to To overstate, you know, we had trans and sort of gender
non-conforming writers who worked on the story and helped
shape. It really, really Broad and
Patrice who plays Gracie, just brought a beautiful depth and
soul and seriousness and warmth and humor to that role.
And they also brought this, you know, something that we were
really worked on in the writers room but they brought to life in
a way that I think was ultimately more.
Then powerful for us than we even thought, which is like the
sense that they have a really wonderful life despite all the
sacrifices and the things that they give up to have it and just
to talks about like how, maybe her favorite moment in the show
is like, where Max wakes up kind of hung over after the party.
And, you know, bringing greasier kind of just making fun of her
and then have this nice kind of couple moment where they Kiss
and that was you know, something that really came from the
Patrice. And it's you know, like I said
before, it's all a collaboration where you have ideas and then
the actors just bring something that ultimately is better.
So we were so lucky to have them in those roles.
They're amazing. Yeah, they really are.
In the first episode of the show Greta and Carson write a letter
to Charlie was that scene? Greta and Carson writing a
letter or a b and Darcy goofing around after a few martinis the
letter writing scene of was well I was definitely Greta and
Kirsten writing the letter but Abbi and Darcy who played
getting Carson have known each other for many years.
And I think the feeling of how to like get each other and how
it's like poking each other and everything really that that
comes through in their performances.
And it definitely came through in that scene that scene was
shot at the end of a day on the pilot and we didn't have as much
time as we wanted to, which always happens.
And so it was definitely a situation where Jamie Babbitt
who directed the pilot and the next two episodes, kind of set
up the cameras. And it was just like, okay, like
do it and she was yelling out ideas and they were doing things
and it was great. And I think that sort of sense
of fun and immediacy comes through in the sea.
Yeah reminder me. First of all it was so it was
perfect and it also reminded me of things that I've done with my
with my friends or people that I've just met, even when you get
into it, the situation like that, where you're throwing
together, it is. Yeah.
Well it was also, you know, it's a moment for Carson where she
looks at Greta and she's like, This person is courageous and
strong in a way that I don't know how to be, but I but I know
that I kind of need to be, which I think is part of why she
latches on to her at that moment.
Not knowing that there's a lot of pain in the back story and a
reason why Greta is that way. Switching, gears a little bit.
You have another Amazon Prime show premiering on March 3rd
called Daisy drones and the six that is correct.
Can you tell us a little bit about that one?
That shows like league has been a long time in coming?
It was delayed for covid. It's based on a book by Taylor
Jenkins, read, which is wonderful, and romantic, and
sort of takes you behind the scenes.
Scenes of one of the greatest albums of all time and a band
that came together, recorded this album generated a lot of
rumors and then broke up and nobody knows why.
And for me, the fun of that show, one of the fun parts of
that show was getting to kind of go on the bus with the band and
really be on that journey and on that rise with them.
But also You know, Scott neustadter who I ran the show
with and I think in different ways, they're both sort of
obsessed with the music of that time and and getting to really
make an album that speaks to those albums that we love with
an incredible group of musicians, has been so much fun.
So the show comes out on March 3rd.
We're incredibly excited for people to see it and nervous,
all the other things. Yeah.
I'm sure it's going to be great. All your work is amazing.
And I don't just say that because we're talking to you.
I mean we really do. We love we suck at lying about
stuff like that. I promise.
But that's a miniseries correct. Yeah.
It's a, it's a 10-episode miniseries.
So like that's it. Well, I mean, never say, never
we'll see how the show does and if people sort of move into To
the house and, and make something out of it.
Like, they have with League, you know, maybe there's a way to
continue a bit at the moment, were not thinking about anything
besides just putting the show on.
Yeah, I was just wondering if you think like miniseries are
better than shows at this point because renewals are like so
hard to get anymore. Yeah.
I mean there's definitely a part of me that looking at the way
that people are using data and metrics and especially when
you're telling us, Story with female protagonist people from
historically, marginalized groups and there's something
wonderful about just getting to end this story and then not go
through that process. But at the same time, you know
there's something amazing about living with characters for three
seasons and and essentially having them be part of your
family. And and ultimately I think
they're both. Satisfying to do in different
ways. So, We hear you have another
series on The Works called Nigerian princess that is
writing. That's a series that I'm
producing the Z-Wave Houma. Do who you guys probably know
created and is starting it and it's been like so fun to to get
to help her sort of make her world and figure out a version
of her scripted sensibility. I really can't.
Wait for people to see it. Does it have a release date yet?
Or is it still don't have it of? We just turned in the second
episode and hopefully we'll be able to start shooting at
sometime this year so I'll keep you guys posted.
Do you have any advice for people trying to break into the
industry and how to tell underrepresented stories?
Well first of all for people trying to break into the
industry. I think the thing that I would
say is like start to really cultivate your own process, like
the industry parts of it are always going to be hard.
Whether it's getting a show made, getting it renewed,
getting representation getting somebody to read your pilot, you
know? And so I think what you really
have to do is, is figure out what your work means in your
life. And figure out a routine that
really supports it and then you have to be doing that work every
day or whatever your schedule is, sort of no matter what's
going on in your life and what's what's happening in the world
and what the industry thinks of what you're doing.
You know, you have to sort of nurture your own processes, an
artist first, and then I think, in terms of people who are
trying to break in, you know, like really, Yourself into your
scripts. Like when we're reading scripts
for Staffing, you read a lot of scripts that you're like you
know what that's pretty good and like that totally feels like a
TV show and then you read one that you're like oh this is
really weird and specific and like I don't know, this voice
feels different and it's somebody's just going a little
bit deeper and writing from their own personal experience
or, you know, something that they want to write about.
Out. So that that difference is is
really big, you know? And and again I think that's
part of kind of a good process in terms of telling queer
stories under represented stories.
I think you know there's not a magic answer to that it is
challenging because audiences of color and queer audiences.
As we said earlier tend to watch Which shows with wait, stream,
protagonists. And the same is not true in
Reverse which creates a set of Dynamics in data and ratings and
everything else. That essentially, I think
platforms, a lot of the bias that exists in the world into
those metrics. Unless they're looked at
thoughtfully with a lot of context.
And the thing that I would say, is like first of all, like do It
it's incredibly important. The second thing I would say is
like have a community. Find the people that you want to
work with or that you want to have drinks with who care about
the same things that you care about and find a team.
You know, and ultimately that's the thing that I think really
makes it possible. That's true.
Not that I know from firsthand experience but well, not the
that but, you know, about finding a team because yeah, I
found each other and it was Awesome.
Yeah. Little team.
I'm sure it's the same thing for you guys at the podcast, right?
It's like you do it partly because there's some joy and
doing it together. Oh, that's absolutely.
Wouldn't be here. And so there's like because
there's two main reasons is one is, you know, putting out the
getting queer media it like information about queer, media
out there and then also our family.
So, and those things go hand in hand.
Hand. So that's awesome.
And I'm glad you guys you do. And thank you for doing what
you're doing, because it makes our jobs a lot more fun.
Yeah, we can't. We're getting close to talking
about A League of Their Own. It's gonna be so good for your
non-first. Well, we appreciate it and then
hopefully season to do even more.
No. No crossing fingers.
Yeah, I'm sure we could figure out hundreds of more questions
to ask you because, like, we didn't touch the surface on a
league of there, and there's just so much in it so much, I
can't like it. There's no words.
It's just it's an experience. That's that's all I can say.
The show is it really is. Well, that is the nicest thing
you could possibly say about it and it means a lot to me that
you guys say that. And you know that the fandom
around the show, the different fandoms around the show have
really embraced it in that way, you know, that's that's why we
do what we do and it really matters.
Absolutely, I love that. Well, that wraps wraps up our
questions for today before we sign off.
Do you have any final words for the listeners at home?
I would just say I mean I assume there's a lot of queer people in
your audience and usually our face audience.
Yeah, I figured there's a couple.
Yeah. So I guess I would just say the
same way as the characters in the show by sorting out your
lives and finding your people and falling in love.
Like, there is real heroism in that in a world that isn't
necessarily set up for you and we need each other to make it
worth it and to make it fun and and everything.
So, you know, it's not the easiest time in the world to be
a queer person. Not the easiest time in our
country to be a queer person. So take care of yourselves and
take care of each other. That's beautiful.
Thank you again, for taking the time to talk with us today.
We really appreciate it and loved getting to know you better
do things like and don't worry, I'm going to get you that list
of books. Okay, the snag.
But I'm going to get it. I can't wait.
Everyone at home listening. Make sure to check out A League
of Their Own and Daisy Jones in the six post review on Amazon
will do the latter will be starting March 3rd.
Thank you. You goodbye.
And with that, we've been big gay energy.
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