Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy.
I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora.
Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of
queer media. Representation matters.
And we're here to talk about it. Cheers, queers.
Today on the big agenda, we are talking to the amazing Kat
Burrell. You may know Kat as Nicole Hot
and Wynonna Earp or as Kelly in the recent Hallmark movie The
Christmas Baby, which we are here to talk about today.
Welcome to the podcast. Kat, yay.
Thank you for having me. I have heard very good things
about being a guest on your podcast, so thank you for having
me. Oh.
Really. That's amazing.
I'm so excited to talk to you today.
Oh, thank you. OK, so a big part of the
Christmas baby is, of course, the baby.
And throughout the film you've worked with a variety of child
actors across the spectrum of ages.
What are like the most memorable moments from working with them?
Oh, I mean baby Lucas, who is our baby, was just he was the
like sweetest, easiest baby I think I've ever witnessed.
I also had was going through my daughter was 11 months old when
we shot this movie and she was not an easy baby.
So the contrast between her and him was very drastic.
He was so easy. It was like he would fall asleep
on his mom and we'd put him in the, the, the little carry car
seat and he would wake up in the middle of a take and just be
chill about it. Just like, Oh yeah.
Looking around. We called the, the, he really
liked the boom, which is the microphone that we the, so we
would call it boom boom. Whenever he would get fussy, we
would tell him to look for boom boom.
It was very cute. We ended up putting, I think
like little eyes on it and stuff.
It was very, very sweet. But yeah, I think just what I
loved most. I've worked with children before
and there's this really interesting sort of like when
they turn 6-7, they get a little more aware of like being on.
But before that, there's like no difference in the kids between
action and cut because they just don't have that awareness yet.
And I really like that because it just forces you to be very,
very present because they're so unpredictable and they're never
going to do the same thing twice.
And especially working with a baby, I think it just, I had a
really hard time because Kelly, my character, was sort of
hesitant to have a baby. And I actually found it really
hard to not be very enthusiastic when I was around baby Lucas
because he's so adorable and so cute and I loved him so much.
And it was actually really hard to pretend tend to be not
engaged with him. It was like this weird head mind
game for me. But I really, I really do like
it. Kids and animals are so fun to
work with and also can be challenging because they're
inconsistent and unpredictable. But I think it keeps everybody
really present. And also having kids on set just
kind of reminds you that like what you're doing is not the be
all and end all. And we don't need to all take
ourselves so seriously all the time.
Yeah, I love that. Like kids and animals are like
the two things that people always stereotypically say never
work with. Yeah.
They're so cute and amazing. They're so.
Cute. They're so amazing.
Yeah. And they're, you know, they kind
of remind us that it's not so serious.
We can all calm down a little bit.
Yeah. How does it compare to like
working with just mostly adults? It's just different.
It's just adults are they're more predictable.
I mean, it's both great. It's just if it's very, you
know, when you work with kids, you don't know what you're going
to get from take to take, which is really exciting actually.
And when you work with really good adult actors, you should
also not really know what you're going to get from take to take
because they would be surprising you with different choices.
And I've definitely got to work with amazing adults that I have
no idea what's coming down the pipe.
And that's really exciting. But yeah, it's, it's just, it's
just different. It's just unpredictable.
That's fair, yeah. What was it like to explore the
accidental baby acquisition trope through the perspective of
a married sapphic woman? I mean, one of the things I
liked the most about Christmas Baby was the fact that their
relationship, their pillars in their community, Kelly and Aaron
are beloved by their community. They are literally, we see my
character Kelly receiving an award in front of like all the
arts organizations in the community.
They have supportive families that are very involved.
They have meddling mothers. You know, all these tropes we
didn't have there was it was never about the fact that they
were this married couple, this like, you know, same sex married
couple. It was the fact that they were
this beloved couple that thought they wanted one thing for their
marriage. And it turns out that life was
kind of throwing them another thing.
And they were given the opportunity to go back to
probably what was like a really big decision a few years prior
when they decided that they weren't going to have kids and
they weren't going to pursue that.
And you know, to get to go back and really revisit one of life's
biggest decisions, but in the context of marriage was just so
great. I was so happy to play.
It's also like really nice. The meat cutes are fun and
everybody loves a meat cute. And but it was really nice to
just get to play like a grounded, great, solid,
established couple where the drama had absolutely nothing to
do with their marriage or their relationship, but it was all
about the craziness happening around them and watching them
like remain solid together through it.
I just thought it was great. And it was.
I think that's that's why the movie meant so much to people is
that especially queer families, like, we don't have a lot of
movies. We are getting better
representation about, you know, cute, meet cute in the beginning
of cute queer relationships. But to see like a couple well
into their marriage is more rare.
And that's why I was so excited when I read the script, because
I just thought, oh, this is awesome.
Yeah, it's finally not like a coming out story.
It's. Not a coming out story.
It's just about life and these two great people.
Yeah. What do you hope queer couples
see reflected in Kelly's story that they don't get often?
I think, I hope that they see a couple that is I think he knows
so much. So often we talk about like
normalizing queer identity and normalizing queer stories.
And I think that is that is what this movie did so well.
And I hope they see two people that are pillars in their
community that have loving relationships with their family,
healthy relationships with their family, positive relationships
with their family. Especially like the parental
figures in the movie, I want people to see, you know, if
there is someone who's who's struggling with their queerness,
I want them to see a beacon of like, you know, the American
dream that looks like them. And I think that's so important
more than even more than the the meet cute because like, what
happens after that? What does life look like?
What could life be like? It can be full of love and
happiness and acceptance and support and community
involvement. Like, you know, the meet cute is
1 moment. This is like life.
And I hope that that that this movie brought that that image
into the minds of people who needed to see it.
I love that so much because yeah, we do not get to see just
life and living everyday life. And it's so important because it
it truly does not stop when you meet someone.
Also like. Navigating relationships.
And. Yeah, something my podcast
partner Theora and I always talk about is how we also want to
see, like, representation in like, older people as well.
Because let's let's get Granny's falling in love.
Totally. I totally.
I agree. That was totally random, but you
know. What happens later in life?
Speaking of in the future, if if your role as Kelly is reprised
for like a sequel in 10 years in the future, what do you think
her life looks like? That's a good question.
I wonder, I wonder if they like if Nick, baby Nicholas flips the
switch for Kelly and Aaron and they decide to have more kids.
I could definitely see it going that way.
But they're like, all right, well, we broke the seal.
Let's do it. I think.
Yeah, I think, I feel like they would probably have more kids
because they went through such a transformative journey and
realized that it was really for them.
And so I think once they make this the decision, I, I, I feel
like it's not going to stop. And they will have, they will
have, I just see them having more kids, like maybe two more,
maybe they have 3. So in 10 years, I think they
have three kids. And I think Kelly's running
like, I don't know, some sort of arts organization.
She's not just doing installation, she's like running
the place. Oh yeah, totally.
Yeah. Totally, that's what.
She's by hers too. Also, I just want to say you did
such a great job in this film. Like your acting was phenomenal.
Oh man, thank you. I really appreciate that.
Thank you. Were there any aspects of
Kelly's journey to parenthood that resonated with you?
Oh gosh, yeah, yeah, a lot actually.
I have two kids and I was a person who wasn't sure if they
wanted kids. And I always knew if I ended up
with somebody who really wanted kids that I was like on the
fence. I was like, if the person that I
decide to spend my life with wants kids, then I will do it.
Then I can do it. I I, I, I wanted enough to know,
but I was also like, if I end up with somebody who really doesn't
want kids, it's not a deal breaker for me.
And so I really identified with that in them.
Like I don't know if I really want this and I can see my life.
I definitely like me, Catherine. I definitely pictured my life
without kids and what that would look like.
I could see it. And, you know, having kids I
think transforms you so much. I'm reading this like great book
right now. It's called Mater Sense, but it
actually talks about this sort of thing we don't talk about in
our society very much is just like what actually happens to
you when you become a parent, Both the parent who gives birth
to the child, but also the partner partners who are raising
that kid. Like how just it fundamentally
shifts who you are, who you thought you were, what you
wanted, what you thought you wanted.
And sometimes it's really hard to recognize yourself.
And then I really identified with Kelly's, like I thought
this is what I wanted and now I just don't know anymore and I
don't even recognize myself. And that's really scary.
It can be really scary to to not see yourself all of a sudden.
And also the fear the world is like kind of a dumpster fire and
being a parent and thinking about your children growing up
in said dumpster fire is like terrifying.
I wake up many mornings at 4:00 AM, four AM seems to be like the
sweet spot 334 AMI just wake up and you have these really dark
thoughts and you, you know, and I, I, I remember reading that
beautiful monologue that Kelly had about just like, how do I
raise a child in a world I don't even understand?
And she was talking about, you know, a little bit about, about
queer families. And I don't want my kid to to
feel othered. But really, she was talking
about what every parent universally feels, which is
like, it can be really scary to bring a person into the world
and have to nurture hope and determination and strength and
positivity when you are so scared and uncertain of what
their future looks like. And I really love that,
especially in like, you know, a romantic Hallmark Christmas
movie, that that script really made room for us to go there and
have a conversation that so many people have when they think
about having kids, which is like, how do I bring a person
into this world that I just don't feel confident in?
Yeah. So I identified with so many
things in the script. It was so pretty close to home
because I'm, I'm so in it right now.
I'm, you know, my kids are really little.
So. Yeah, felt, felt all the things,
all the feelings. Yeah.
So it was like the perfect time for you to be in this.
Film. It was the perfect time.
Yeah, it really was.
And it was fun because my, my, my acting partner, Ali, she's
very good with kids and has since stayed at my home and my
kids adore her. But like didn't, doesn't, didn't
have kids. And so it was fun to be able to
share that with her and like teach her a few little tricks
and things that I learned because I, I hadn't changed a
diaper before I had my son. Like I really wasn't a kid
person. I didn't know anything about
kids really. I remember the first diaper
change and now I don't know how many hundreds I've done, but
like, I remember the first one. I'm thinking, oh, OK, so this is
how it works. OK.
You like, pull the little thing. And it's just amazing, the
learning curve. And it was really fun to share
that with Ali and to, you know, get to the to feel like, oh, I
actually I know something now that I didn't know anything
about a few years ago. That was cool.
Yeah. That's awesome.
Yeah. Speaking of Ali, did you have
conversations with her about portraying a married sapphic
relationship in a way that feels real?
Totally. We we talked about it a lot and
I think the most important thing for us, we didn't have that much
time together before we started shooting.
We only had a day and we actually started the first thing
that we shot was like a really a really hard.
It was the scene, this breakfast scene where they had sort of
decided to send Nicholas back and Aaron Alley's character was
really heartbroken about it and kind of upset with Kelly.
And it was a rough scene to start on.
I guess you're first because you're like really like you're
trying to establish your dynamic.
You're getting the cobwebs out for rolling for the first time
and like, however long it's been since you've shot.
So. But yeah, I mean, we, we walked
around town. We had to take a bunch of
pictures for our prop, the props around our House of like us
together. And, you know, we barely knew
each other at the time. And Ally has since become a very
good friend of mine. We talked several times a week,
like, like one of my closest friends, which is incredible.
And we talked, I mean, we didn't talk that much about them being
a sapphic couple or like that. What wasn't like, how are we
going to do this differently? Because like it was just kind of
like, OK, what's unique to them? What's their relationship
history? How did they get here?
How long did they date? What was that like, you know, do
they like living in this small town?
Did they want to live in the city?
How do they feel about each other's moms?
It wasn't conversations, you know, because the script kind of
took care of that for us because it, the script wasn't about them
being a queer couple. So the conversations we had were
were not about that. They were just about, you know,
conversations you would have no matter who you're partnered with
in a movie. But like, OK, who are these two
people and what's their story? Yeah.
And I think, you know, we, we did the best we could about
talking, filling in the gaps because I think one of the most
interesting things about that script for me was that it wasn't
my character who didn't want the kids.
It was Ali's character who didn't want the kids and that
because I think it would have been really easy for it to have
been Aaron, who like has been no from the beginning, but Aaron
was or sorry, Kelly, my character, Kelly was the one who
wanted kids. Ali's character, Aaron did not
want kids. She was the one who said no.
And Kelly kind of dropped it and then got used to the idea and
now has to do this whole like reimagining.
It's like, I know with with like once you get used to an idea and
the way you see your future, it can be really hard to to
reimagine it a completely different way.
Of course. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I can't imagine this ever happening.
Yeah. Right.
I know, right. Yeah.
And I liked that they were chosen to.
It wasn't a random, you know, it was, it was Sydney's character
who was the barista at the cafe who watched them come in for
their what their ritual weekend coffee and, you know, just saw
how great they were and picked them.
It wasn't they just found a baby and it could have been anyone
who found the baby. It was the baby she wanted them.
The the the biological mom wanted necklace to be with them.
Yeah, yeah, I do have to say the social worker, Yeah, OK, I
didn't wasn't sure if that was like the same job title, but
like the social worker was very patient with coming back and
forth bringing. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's the other thing, you know, that we haven't been
able to talk about yet is like, this is a story about a baby
coming to, you know, in into a sapphic marriage, but it's also
a story about adoption, which we don't get to see very much.
There's very little Christmas Hallmark Christmas movies about
happy adoptions, right? And I, I actually have heard a
lot of feedback from adoptive families who are like, we never
get to see our family on TV. You know, we never get to see
families who we obviously had to drastically condense the
adoption process 'cause it's a movie and it has to happen in 90
minutes and it has to happen over Christmas.
And like there are obviously these sort of practical things
that we need to consider when making a movie, but like the
adoption process and the importance of that actor who
plays the social worker. Her name is Barbara Niven.
She's an incredible, amazing, like Hallmark legendary actress.
And she I think just brought so much, like you said, like
patience. But to do that job.
I mean, they're, so I'm so grateful that there are people
in the world who can do those jobs because it's such a so
hard. And I think Barbara really
portrayed that beautifully. Like that, like, like that quiet
strength. And she has to be there for the
mother and there for the adoptive parents and there for
the baby. And it's like, how do you sort
of balance everyone's needs and everyone's emotion and try to
find like, what is the right thing?
Because it's also, it's also kind of up to her to assess the
situation and figure out is this really the right thing for this,
for this baby? And I thought it was really
amazing to be able to tell, like we told some some big stories
all in a really beautiful, lovely, warm package.
But I think that's what's so awesome about this movie is
because of its package, because it was a Hallmark Christmas
movie, we got some really important storytelling into a
lot of homes across the country. And I think that's what's really
powerful about that medium in particular and those movies is
that they get those stories into the homes and hearts of people
who maybe wouldn't see those stories otherwise.
And like, that's what really makes the change.
That is a great point. Yeah.
I yeah, that very true. So going back to your character,
what do you want viewers to understand about Kelly as a
person outside of becoming a parent?
That's a great question, that she's really loves what she does
and it's a really big part of her identity and that that can
be enough. I think there can be a lot of
like judgement, especially for for women, I think judgement on
whether you're a mom or not, whether you want to have kids or
not. And I have so much respect and
love for the people in my life who are like, don't want to be a
parent. I know I don't want to be a
parent. I love what I do.
I've had, you know, had a meeting with a producer the
other week who's like, I don't want to have kids.
My movies are my kids. I was like, that's, that's
awesome. Like I have so much respect.
And I think this weird thing, I mean, I naturally, because I'm a
parent, I have like, I, I have an account where I follow like a
bunch of parenting stuff online. And I think there's this like
can be such so much judgement on whether or not people like, do
you want to or don't want to have kids?
And I think you can have just as fulfilling and wonderful a life
whether you do or you don't. I don't think it's like a life
requirement. And I think if you don't want to
have kids, and you know that, and that's great because there's
a lot of people out there who have kids who really shouldn't.
And I just have like nothing but respect for people who make that
decision because I know that society can kind of pressure
pressure you into things that deep down you're like, this is
not for me. So maybe that's a really long
way of saying it was nice to see somebody who was totally
confident and OK with not having kids and getting like so much
validation and fulfillment from their life as it was.
Yeah, I love that because we do need that representation as
well. And although she does become a
parent, it doesn't erase the fact that she was truly
comfortable without having kids. Yeah, she wasn't missing
anything. Yeah.
Which is I think sometimes the way we can be made to feel if if
you don't want to have kids. Totally.
Yeah. If you could add one extra scene
to Deep in Kelly's arc, what would you want to see?
Another great question. I mean, I had a lot of really
good ones. I'm like trying to think maybe
more with my mom, but we had a great one at the bar, maybe a
little bit more. I think 11 beat that we were
missing was I think the transition a little bit more of
the struggle of trying to make it work and it wasn't.
I think we went really quickly from OK, we have this baby.
It's great too. Oh my God, it's horrible.
It would have been nice to see just a little bit more.
I actually think we shot it and we cut it.
There was a scene where we took him to a mommy and me that
unfortunately, I think they had to cut for time.
Where you see them, like with, I know, I don't know, it was a
really cute scene, but there was like, you know, with a bunch of
parents and we're all playing with the babies.
And it was really sweet. And I mostly just feel bad for
all the, like, parents and kids we had that day who were
probably really excited to see that scene in the movie.
And then it gets cut. That just really sucks.
But yeah, I would have been nice to see before it was like, this
is not working. It would have been nice to see.
Well, we're trying, but it's like kind of not working.
I just think we don't have time. Yeah, yeah, we just.
We needed a 2 hour movie. Two and a two hour, 2 1/2.
Is there anything that somebody hasn't asked you about that
you've just been like wanting to talk about?
Honestly, no. I feel like I've had such great
conversations about this movie that have run the gamut of
talking about, you know, I really want to talk about the
adoption story and seeing an adoption story play out in a
Christmas movie was like, I don't know if anyone's ever done
that. So that was pretty great.
No, I feel like I I want to say something but like I can't think
of anything. That's fair.
So like, this is not your first queer role.
How have you seen queer representation in the media
evolve over the years? And like, what do you hope for
the future? Yeah, I mean, my goodness, I've
been giving had the privilege to play queer characters for a
decade now. I think Wynonna Earp, we shot it
10 years ago. It's the 10 year anniversary
this year. I know it's crazy.
I've been so lucky to play. I played a a queer character on
Good Witch as well, which is the Hallmark show.
And I, I mean, even though everybody loves a meet cute, I
want more. And I just got back from the
GLAD Awards. So it was just at the GLAD
Awards last week, you know, and I got to be in a beautiful room
full of incredible queer people and just, you know, listen to
the rally cries for better representation, more
representation, because there's still just so much awful shit
going on in the world. And you know, you think we make
progress and then you think, how can this still be happening?
How can we be having bills being passed that like do validate a
person's existence? Like it it just like, so to
answer your question, what I hope for the future, I'm going
to kind of tackle it from a different what I hope because
I'm always go back to like what can I do?
What can I do to help like like you can feel so powerless,
especially because I'm a Canadian.
So I'm, I don't vote in America. I don't, you know, what can I do
to like bring about positive change?
And what I think I can do is continue trying to get stories
told in unconventional places, maybe like the Hallmark Channel
that, you know, has traditionally not had as much
queer representation and is now working so hard to improve that.
And I think is doing a really amazing job.
And I think what I love about doing queer stories, especially
on this network, is that this network is a like all American
foundational for many families. It's kind of like a gather
around the TV. We don't have a lot of that
anymore. We're watching a lot of things
in isolation. You know, it's gone are the days
where you had one TV in the house.
But this network, Hallmark Network, does something really
special where it's kind of continues to break that mold.
A lot of people watch these shows with their families and I
think we have an opportunity on the Hallmark network to like we
kind of were speaking about before, get queer, positive,
beautiful, happy, feel good queer stories into the homes of
people who may not watch core stories on other networks.
And I think as simple as that might be and as fluffy or light
as you know it, the stereotype of what the content may be, I
actually think it's making a huge change because you can't
fear and hate something that you love or made you laugh or made
you feel seen. And I think in that small way,
if I can continue to be a part of and support and champion
these stories, that's going to make a difference.
I hope I set that with some clarity.
But I, yeah, OK. I was circling it.
I'm circling it. It's coming back around.
But that's what I really hope. And that's what I felt being at
the GLAAD Awards last week. There are amazing people telling
incredible queer stories on huge, you know, big platforms,
but I think we also need to tell them on the places where they
might be least expected. Yeah, and don't always revolve
around tragedy. And don't always revolve around
tragedy. Everybody loves, my gosh.
I mean, nobody loves the Hallmark Christmas movie more
than more than the gays. Like, come on, it's the best
everybody. You know, it's so funny.
Like I talked to so many people who are like, oh, I love those
movies. You know, I love those movies
and, and everybody like across the, the spectrum of humanity,
like, you know, my brother-in-law loves Hallmark
Christmas movies. And I just think there's
something so special about them. People love people want to watch
a story where they know they're going to feel good and feel
comfortable and feel like the world isn't a dumpster fire.
And that's what these movies do. And that's why they're so
important. And if we can make them a little
bit gay, then yay all the way. That's what I say.
Look at that rhyme. I'm like looking at my hat
today, Good Lord. That was great.
Yeah. All right, I got two last
questions for you and these are just like more fun ones.
Amazing. If you could bring 1 Winona herb
element into Kelly's world, what would it be?
Winona. Herb Almond, Kelly's World.
OK OK Oh my gosh, so many things are flying through my head right
now. If I could bring 1 Winona herb
element, could we go like western core?
Could we go Kelly and Aaron go to a dude ranch with their
family like out in Montana or something.
Very herpy. They stay at a homestead.
Could we, could we bring the setting?
Could we bring them to the setting and see how they do?
Like a big. A big family vacation out in in
herb country In herb country. Yeah.
And then like it's on a farm and then you have to like it's like
a take care of the farm. You get to stay there for free.
So you totally then they have to learn how to.
Take care of. Them.
That's the sequel. To this, It's writing itself
right now. It's so good.
They get plopped or like the Airbnb that they thought they
signed up for ends up being this farm and they have to care for
all these animals. And it's.
Yeah, that's fun. I like that.
Let's go with that. I love that.
Sounds amazing, Sounds hilarious.
It does. It does.
That would be fun. All right, so this is the most
serious question I'm going to ask the of this entire
interview. I'm ready.
What advice would you give someone who finds a baby in
their workplace with a mysterious note addressed to
them? I think if it's addressed to
you, you have to take the baby. What advice would I give you?
I would say I don't know. What advice would I give you
practically? I don't know.
Stop at the drugstore on the way home.
You're going to need more diapers than you think.
That no, that seems hilarious. Like, no, we have 24 diapers,
No. No, we've got 20.
We're fine. Moms were like, OK, yeah.
The moms were hilarious. I love that they got along too.
I know it wasn't that nice. Yeah, I really.
Oh, it was. So nice.
Yeah, it was really nice. Yeah.
Yeah, they were great. Well, thank you so much for
giving your time. To us today.
Sorry for the hiccup. Oh, no problems.
It's been such a joy getting to talk to you about this movie and
just to you in general. Thank you to everyone listening.
Make sure you check out the Christmas Baby on Hallmark.
It's I believe their platforms Hallmark Plus.
Hallmark Plus yeah, you can watch.
You can still change on the network, you can still stream
it. It's great.
It's a great movie and where can people support you online and
in? Future So I am at Cat Burrell on
Instagram. That's basically what I use now.
But yeah. And if you like the Christmas
baby and you like you want to see more stories like the
Christmas baby, please do a post about it and tag the network and
let them know because networks really do pay attention to stuff
like that. And the feedback is super
important. So even if you have like a
personal connection to it or touched you in a certain way, I
would just say like, please share that.
Please tag me and Allie, please tag Hallmark.
We really want to know because that's what helps us, that
feedback helps us get more things like this made so.
Yeah, awesome. Yeah.
We do have more power than we think.
Yes, yeah, 100% yeah. Social engagement is super
important. So yeah, let us know what you
like and what you want to see more of.
Yeah, so let your voices be heard and until next time,
hydrate for lesbian Jesus and get it up all over the place.
Bye bye. And with that.
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