Hello and welcome to Big Gay energy.
I'm Bree. I'm Fiora and I'm Caitlin come
along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer
media representation matters. And we're here to talk about it.
Welcome back everyone. Today we have a super amazing
talented guest Tracy Dawson, who's an actor, TV, writer and
author. We're going to talk all about
her book. Let me be frank today.
Thank you. So, so very much for coming to
join us today. Very happy to be here with who
Yes. Okay.
So for the listeners at home, who may have not read, let me be
frank. It could you just share what the
book is about for them? Well, first of all, I always
love to say the full title because it really tells people
exactly what it is and exactly what to expect in certain terms
of tone. Right?
So the full title is, let me be frank.
A book about women who dress like men to do shit they weren't
supposed to do. So it's like if anyone picks his
book up at the bookstore, they're like, oh, that's what it
is. Like you don't have to Any other
questions, you know, Ed, and also, like, just the quirky
witty sassiness of the title. It tells you like this isn't
like an academic dry history book, right?
And so, I definitely my neck. My background is a comedy
writer. And so I wanted, you know,
comedian actress comedy writer. And so like I want to use the
tools that I have because when I talk about the stuff in private,
like, with my friends, I'm funny Iran tie.
I rage. It's just like I wanted to sort
of bring that energy that passionate hopefully funny
energy to the book to spread the good word about defiant women.
Yeah, I will say the tone is amazing and it definitely keeps
you entertained. So if you're like, not into dry
history, but you like learning about history.
This book is absolutely perfect. Thanks.
I mean, I had to definitely keep myself entertained.
You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to be dry.
I don't want. And also, you know, when you
want to spread the word about smashing the patriarchy and just
like women, who didn't take no for an answer, like it's for
some people, that's medicine, right?
So it's like the Helping the medicine go down with
entertainment, and humor is definitely the goal.
And that's what I tried to do, is, as a comedian when I was
starting out of my 20s, you know, it's just like I wanted
to, you know, attack gender, roles attack the patriarchy, it
just and and so, I did it in this sort of like cute fun
package. I thought I tried Hey, that is a
noble goal and something. We need more of in the world.
And in the book you actually talked about kind of like what
led to the creation of this book during the 2013 water bottle
tour. When essentially, you were
Shrugged off as a female writer capable of writing female needs.
So I'm curious like since 2013 has that aspect of the industry
changed at all. Well, you know, I have a lot of
opinions So just to give context to The Listener so it's like I
was on this interview with an executive at a major Studio, you
know. And it was you go on these
meetings to because they're trying to find writers for their
new shows and so when asked you know, which of our shows did you
connect with, could you see yourself writing on I listed a
few and that executive them said, well, none of those shows
have any female needs and I struggled to continue in that
me. Being without because I'm an
Aries, okay? And Ian fiery Mars is my ruler,
the god of war and so I was I was even though I was a younger
person, I wanted to let go, are you fucking kidding me?
Like what do you just said that to my face?
So that leads to my answer about have things changed.
I just don't think there's as much being like, I think she
would that executive who was a woman.
I don't think that executive would Say that to my face in
2023 now, are there still feelings of you know, if there's
two women in the room out of a room of 10 or 11 or 12 writers
that you filled your quota? Probably in some rooms.
Yes, I'm not going to lie to you.
I think that certain rooms are a lot more diverse and a lot more
like, there's certain showrunners, just that just know
that if you have gender parity, and if you have people of color
and if you have queer people and every And like, there's a whole
bunch of people in that room that you're going to have a
better show, like I'm sorry, like I will stand on that
soapbox. I will, I will die on that Hill.
Certain showrunners have woken up to that.
Others may be older. More white and male and sis and
like, you know, maybe those people are still holding on to
this sort of older I mean, they still exist.
They still exist those rooms on certain shows, definitely still
exists. And it's and it's hard to not be
considered the female took the token female in the room where
the token black person in the room.
And it's like, it's I this is how I, this is how I get when I
talk about it. It's upsetting, you know,
because I just go, it doesn't make for a better show, it
doesn't. So it's like, I don't know,
unless what they're doing is they're protecting their around
their little patriarchal, you know, white supremacist boys
club like where they can do. It's like, it wasn't that long
ago that I had friends who were telling me about like leaving
the job every day and crying because it was just a just a
room of toxic masculinity. I mean that's not that long ago
that I was having those conversations and so yeah, I
think in some ways it's I mean this is a long-winded answer but
I think in some ways it's absolutely changing and we're
seeing it. With Incredible TV shows that
are coming out there, but some of that Old Guard is still
absolutely a play. I mean I don't want to work for
those people if anything I want to be in the room so that I can
like you know, fight them but I don't think that's good for my
career necessarily. It's true though.
I mean it is unfortunate that that still prevails.
And what's sad is that like audiences can tell like you can
tell like the voice behind some of these projects and you're
just like this doesn't feel authentic for what I'm watching
because like lived experience matters when it comes to really
writing and storytelling like truly.
Yeah because lived experience also leads to specificity of
specificity leads to better characters and better jokes.
It just is it just from a comedy Standpoint specificity is like,
so if I lived it and I'm bringing that story to the room
you can see it on that screen. Yeah.
It's like I say all the time when I'm watching something, I
said, oh this seen this thing that's happening in the show
right now. This happened to one of the
writers because there's like you can tell when they're just going
maybe we should throw in something.
That's you know we you know we got to make a diverse.
Like you can always tell when they've just said that they have
to make diverse Yes, like that. Superficial stereotype joke and
you're like, and once its own age, well, necessarily the other
thing that you know, happens is like, sometimes you have a great
room, a very like, an actually diverse incredibly.
It's just people of all different backgrounds and stuff
and then networks, get involved. And they sometimes Newt you to
death, they go, oh we can't do this and we can't do that and
go. That's a little bit to it.
It's like Like you're killing the authentic, like you're the
thing, that's the Special Sauce. You're trying to water it down,
that's because people don't want to be too this or too that.
And it's like, it's I think that when show Runners are given an
opportunity to just like truly just tell their stories, like
let them tell it. Let's let them swing for the
fences. I would rather that right?
Like, tell exactly the story you want to tell and like let them
and if it fails it fails Look if it doesn't hit if people don't
like it, you know, but when you try to just keep everything a
little neutral and watered down and like, not too gay, not to
female, not to Black. Like, it's like you just sense
that like, it's almost like there are risk, averse, and
they're scared. It's like, that's not how you
make art. That's not how you make things
that change the game. Yeah, and especially in comedy
were like most comedy that like, is like Timeless, like it was
pushing the envelope for the time.
So that must be really frustrating to try and write
comedy and like, have it be diluted by like other agendas
essentially, from the network like you said.
Yeah. And they are like, you know,
when I've sold scripts and develop scripts, it's like you
do have to take certain things into a like that.
They, they are on the sort of sales side of things like the
executives and so It's a balance, right?
Like knowing what notes to take that are that are like like
okay. I don't know about that.
They did. It's very on their minds that
they want to attract different audiences.
Meaning we would really love people to watch this with their
families. We would really love like young
people and old people to watch this together.
That's really hard to like try to find the show that like is
going to make everybody want to tune in together.
But anyway, that's just an exam, what I'm Is when they have input
or data like it's hard to know like when to go, okay, thanks.
I didn't know that. Thanks for that information and
went to sort of push back and go, but that's not what this
show is like it, you know. So it's like to which which
battles to choose to keep your voice up entik and like and when
to be collaborative and when to say thanks, I didn't know that.
And that's like, it's just all a dance, right?
We're talking so much about TV itself.
Funny friends. Like I wrote, what's so funny is
let me be frank started as a TV project that I did not sell and
it was born out of rejection and failure because I didn't set it
was it was an idea had for an anthology TV show but all these
incredible people, right? And then when I had all this
research and I had all these pages and I didn't sell the
project. I felt like so deflated
demoralized depressed all the D's and I just was like I Give
up on these women. Like I can't let it go.
So I wonder if this is a book. I thought I never thought that I
had never had before in my life to write a book.
And so I just started writing and I was completely inspired by
them by the people in the book. Like it wasn't about me as which
was a great feeling as an artist.
You know, especially you know when you have a background as a
comedian is an actor like my in my early twenties like it was
all about. Look at me, me me.
So, except centered and as I've grown, as an artist and
developed more into a writer. Who wants to like, say
something. Like I want to say something.
I want people to read this book and to go.
Oh my gosh, you know, like holy fuck.
So it was incredible that I had the thought.
I wonder if this is a book and then four months later, we've
sold the book to harpercollins. It was just like a completely
unbelievable, what a journey? Yeah.
I mean I mean it's been amazing because I just go okay because
I'm working on my second book. Now again a thought that I never
thought I would have or like say to you so and I'm going to
continue in the in the vein, it's very much.
I don't like I'm super sister so I don't like talking too much
about it because we're also just started to go out to publishers.
So it has been so exciting, it's exciting, but it's scary is, I
mean, it's very vulnerable making, right?
Like you have this new baby and you're like, do you love my
baby? You know, but it's very much a
companion piece to break in terms of Women's and fuck the
patriarchy and like, you know, women's women's history having
to be Unearthed and excavated. And why was it buried in the
first place? Why was it left off the history
Pages? Why are these biopics about all
these dudes being made? And all these people.
It's just, you know, it's like if I could use my writing my
voice, my humor to help bring that out like a, this is What I
want to do this is like and if and if I get to still make TV
down the line, I would love that as well.
Well, let we would love that too, and let me be frank is
truly an Incredible Book. It's like the perfect mixture of
like history and humor. That just highlights all these
extraordinary women and I'm wondering in all the research
you did. Do you have this may be an
impossible question but do you have like a favorite heroine
from the book or like a top like top three that you look into?
I mean, yes, I get asked this question a lot so I'm not Shots
by it is hard because listen on one day.
I'm thinking about this person and another day I'm thinking
That person. It's really interesting because
I mean what I hear from readers to is like I love to hear
readers favorites because it's there's some personal thing that
happens when people are reading it.
Like they relate or they're inspired or they it's like it
could be someone from the 1700s but people are relating and
they're inspired. I feel the same way, I felt the
same way as I was writing, you know?
So I mean, I did a book event last night and I read the Rena
Rusty. Can a kogi chapter and and I've
read that on a radio. I mean, I've read that chapter
several times and it's I have to say every single time I get
choked up when I reading it, it's like, I wrote this.
I, I wrote this, I read through this chapter 1 million times
while copy editing and to me, it's still, it's not my writing,
I'm being moved by, I'm being moved obviously by Rusty and so
Rusty can of kogi is basically Why women's Judo exists in the
Olympics. And the reason that that
happened is because when she was 22, she chopped off her hair and
tape down her breasts and competed with her all-male, YMCA
Judo team in New York, and She won.
She like, one in her weight class and then she went up to
get her medal. There was a suspicious
tournament, dude. And he was like, are you a girl?
And she said, yeah, I am and they stripped her of her medal
right then and there and that moment set everything in motion.
I mean, she's 22 and it changed her entire life, it changed her
life, it changed, countless women's lives future Generations
lives, the Olympics. It changed everything.
She mortgaged her house. She remortgaged her house so
that she could fund a women's Judo tournament Championship
something or other at Madison Square Garden she got into
screaming matches. She threatened to sue the
Olympic Committee in 1988 she threatened to sue the Olympic
Committee and then they finally put women's Judo in the Olympics
that year and she was the team captain like she was the coach
like it's an unbelievable story. I had never heard of Rusticana
kogi. Her birth name is Rena.
Glickman, she actually went to Japan because their training was
so limited. She couldn't train, she couldn't
compete in the United States because women's Judo wasn't a
thing. So she was always trading with
men, which is fine because she beat them.
She was amazing. She was, she was she was a
large. Tough woman and but she felt so
limited that she left and went to Japan and she was training.
There are women, there's women's Judo and Japan have been since
the 1920s, but she dominated everybody.
Look, she pulverized all her teammates.
So for the first time in history, they let a woman chain
with the men in Japan and it was Rusty and then she went on to
meet her husband's reow. Hey, can a kogi and you know
she's busy. She's buried in the Family tomb,
the kind of kogi Tomb. It says American Samurai.
I mean she's a phenomenally inspiring incredible woman and
just I have a scoop just two weeks ago.
So Wisconsin Public Radio featured the book and they read
out that chapter and Rusty's daughter dr.
Jean can a kogi heard the broadcast reached out to the
radio station and said she was sobbing while listening to it.
So then they put the radio station, put us together like
connected us. And then I sent her a copy of
the book. I wrote, I can inscribe the
book, I sent it to her. She sent me a copy of her book
and she was just like, unbelievable.
Like, I don't know why I hadn't thought to connect with the
family before. I guess I didn't really know
like where is everybody like, who's because, I know that Rusty
died in 2009. So I just was kind of like, you
know, I'm just over here doing my research.
So an unbelievable thrill to connect with dr.
Jean And, and for her to feel so moved by my portrait of her mom.
Just amazing. That's so beautiful and didn't
they? Also like, didn't she get that
metal, the YMCA like, 84 the metal back to you eventually.
They're like, you can have this now, like, five months before
she died, like right at the end of her life, which is kind of
the thing that chokes me up while I'm reading the chapter,
you know, is like they re awarded her the metal that never
should have been stripped from her and she just deserves, you
know, like every single person in my book, they deserve to be
known to To be known by millions to be, should be lauded to be
celebrated. Its their stories are
incredible. Like really.
Like I mean, that's just not a great story, like she changed
the sport. So to me, I'm like, like I just
want to shout from the rooftops, you know what I mean?
Like it's and it's like why I'm so like so good at hustling
about the book. Like I like to promote, I like
to get out there. I like to do podcasts.
I like because it's again, it's about them.
It's like I want to spread the news.
Yeah. Absolutely.
And there's a and it's amazing that like stories like that.
Like even those people like, they're so impactful.
They're connecting people now. So they transcend time really,
which is amazing. Yeah, there are some passages
though in the book that feel eerily familiar.
For example there's a quote from the book that I wrote.
So, in the 1800's the Parisian authorities issued, an order
requiring women to apply for permits to wear male clothes.
Close AKA pants and we're living in a time where a couple of days
ago a state in the United States passed a law essentially Banning
drag which is very 19th century Parisian which would essentially
do this exact same thing. So what is the significance of
telling stories like like that in this book of just you people
who carried on with their lives despite these things happening?
I mean not to mention I think it's isn't it.
Wyoming that just said that women can't wear a sleeveless
out? Fits like a government
officials. Can't show up to the state
legislature. I mean II don't know the exact I
could be like it's some State some state or some place because
they say women can't you know you can't bear your arms but you
can bear arms like okay. And it was also the 1960s.
It was the 90s. It was the 1960s.
When in Chicago, there were laws against women Wearing pants.
Like it was, it was like dressed in a gender, not of your own.
I mean, it's not that long ago so it's like Paris and the I
mean that lost eight on the books for 200 years and in
Paris. Yes, it's it's all bodily
autonomy. It's all trying to control women
control our bodies that were property that you're our
daddies. I mean, there's the, the story
in the book about Katherine Switzer, who was the first woman
to run the Boston The marathon, the reason she's included in the
book is not because she dressed as a man but she registered for
the marathon using. Just her initials.
The assumed she was male and so when she showed up, they were
like, oh my God, what? But her doctors when she started
to run competitively? First of all, it was not common
for women to run and the doctors all said, you know, we really
don't advise this your uterus is going to fall out and and and so
the The amateur Athletic Association or whatever they
were like, they were rules written in the document that
said women are only allowed to run for this long.
Like that. It's like you can't dress this
way. You can't impersonate a man
whether it's you Just Gotta Wear trousers because it's
comfortable or whether you want to be a drag artist.
I mean, it's all just control but also you can't run your
uterus is going to fall out. It's not.
It's like it's I can't. I can't really I mean to answer
your question in a very roundabout way because I get a
rambling and ranty because it just makes me crazy as it should
as it should. Right.
Yes, yes, I am it. I feel all of this but it's like
now it's like I mean I I guess I feel a little naive that I'd
never thought in 1 million years.
I'd be alive to see Roe v-- Wade.
Be overturned, right? A lot of experts, a lot of
people who work in reproductive Justice said, you know, we did
see the signs, we did, we did know, even they said, we didn't
think it was going to happen, right?
So here we are living in this reality where A lot of people
want to talk about what's happening in Iran, but I mean,
it's here, it's like it's here, it's there, it's everywhere,
it's everything everywhere all at once.
Whoo. Which just won the independent
Spirit award last night. So I that's why it's relevant,
is because this isn't history and by the way, and by the way,
like so this is a book of women's history, but there are
people in here from the 60s and 70s.
There's me At or papaya, who was born in 1990, who went on to
become the top rated female squash player in Pakistan, but
she was born in the tribal areas in the North and the Taliban,
that's where the Taliban were and born a woman.
She couldn't go outside. As a little girl, she couldn't
go outside, like, unless she was with a male companion and her
dad saw that she was a tomboy and he was like tomboy.
I mean this doesn't exist in our tribal area, right?
So he allowed her to cut off her hair and and live as a boy and
it wasn't about gender identity. I mean, it's hard to say I mean
I think it's like very fluid but Maria like left and went to
Canada to train and to live. She is a woman but like she just
wanted to play, she just want to run and play and so her dad was
like, you'll never be able to do As a little girl.
So now you're my son and so she lived as if what I don't know
how many years total, but then when her she was playing squash.
And then they found her out that she was a girl and then they
were like, you know, they all bets were off.
They were like, screw you to divest.
So, then she's like, okay, well then I'll just become the best
girl. And then she just started to
train and compete Rose to the ranks number one top rated
squash player in Pakistan, but because she started to get
pressed and her face started to be a newspaper.
Purrs. Then they started to get death
threats from the Taliban and it became very dangerous which is
why she had to leave and eventually landed in Canada.
My hometown Toronto who and so this is just an example that
that's 19. She was born in 1990 but that's
very recent. There's a chapter in my book
long before this exploded in Iran with Masa, amini the
chapter in my book, is about women in Iran who disguise
themselves as men just to go watch sports in the stadium.
Just to watch sports not to play this forts just because they
were a fan of football AKA soccer.
So there's like there's stories from ancient history in my book
and their stories from two years ago well, three years ago.
So that's why I want to write this book is to say that this
isn't ancient history. This is now.
And just like you said that, passage that you read sounds
eerily similar. We're just trying to like, I
mean, honestly it just can we just Live.
Like, can we just live? Yeah, and you definitely point
that out so many times in the book or like they weren't trying
to make a statement, they were just trying to live and like
their choices were like, be at home.
Be a nun. Be like this.
Like, you know, it was about freedom and it's wild to in the
book and you kind of mention it with like a medical when it
comes to women as a whole another bucket of Madness.
But there's a lot of times where historians, like AKA says white
dudes will try to write off female ambition and be like,
well, you know, something tragic happened to her that made her a
queen And that's why she did this it versus like she wanted
to do this. It what did you learn about
female ambition from writing this book?
Oh my gosh, I mean there were times when I was researching and
writing this book I did go lie down right like to because it
was really hard like some of the stuff.
I mean, there's a, there's a chapter on the witch, hunts, in
Scotland and even though that chapter is about a woman who
disguised herself as a man to be a Which pricker to be a witch
hunter AKA, that's its own form of ambition.
But it's also a sort of a form of self-preservation because if
she's disguised as a man, she's not going to be accused of
Witchcraft and possibly tortured and killed, right?
And so, but I learned a lot about that time and it was
really fucking hard, like if you're really feeling it like
this, it's like, you know. Whoo, sorry.
Wait, I left my train of thought.
What did I learn about female? Well, I learned that it was like
a lot of some people like ended up in mental institutions and
didn't go well for some for some people.
One of my other favorite chapters is Dorothy Lawrence who
just wanted to be a journalist. She was in England and I just
love her so much and I feel like she was done such a.
She was done so dirty and she just wanted to be a journalist.
I mean, obviously she was a writer.
I'm a writer. Like I feel this kinship But
also she was fiery and she went for it, which is also what I
think of myself as and. So she got on the ferry with her
bicycle during World War One and traveled from England to France
to a battle ravaged country, to try to get to the front.
So she could report on it because she knew, if she was
going to be taken seriously, she would eat a scoop, right?
And she thought, well, this is the scoop is Duvall.
The scoops? And she was like, I'm going to
be a war correspondent and she, I mean, II still this an
unbelievable chapter. It's like like Rusty.
I could say this probably, but every time you hear that, my mom
is right, but she goes over. She takes the ferry over.
Just her, and her bicycle, and she meets up with some of her
countrymen from Britain soldiers, they helped smuggle
her. The makings of an outfit, they
help, but they cut her hair off. You know, she's to wrap herself
and sort of this Hot and me cause she she describes to
smooth down her natural womanly curves, she eventually gets to
the front, she's hiding out in some abandoned Cottage like
starving half the time. She becomes friends with this
guy, sapper Tommy Dunn and he's like, yeah, I'm going to help
get you gay. They're like they, there's
people that supported her ten days after being at the front
and helping with the mines, that's what sappers did they
sort of made these mines? And then they blew things up and
The you know it was terrible Warfare trench warfare terrible,
but she was found out and then she became a political prisoner.
They did. They thought she was a spy.
They thought she was a prostitute, they and they kept
on asking they we don't understand what are you doing?
Why are you here? And she's like, I'm a writer.
I want to report. They didn't understand it.
And I said as I said in the book was female Ambitions so hard to
yes, it was so hard. It was so hard for them to
comprehend and you know, She was she was holed up in a nunnery
because they weren't sure if she was a spy.
So they didn't want to just let her go because and and then when
they did let her go back home she was like forbidden from
writing anything about it until the war was over.
So she had to wait to the Armistice.
I think the book came out in 1919 and I read the book it's
available on Google Books, look up, sapper Dorothy, Lawrence
anyone? That wants to.
I love this book. She's funny, she's
self-deprecating. Oh, she's sassy.
She's smart. Like, in my opinion that book
should have been a hit, right? Well, the press ripped her
apart, she's a freak you know, they called her freak.
It makes me so mad because her mom died when she was a young
teenager. And then then she tried to make
it as a writer. This didn't work out.
Well, the book was a failure and her life ends in a, you know, an
institution, she died in an explosion.
Institution and I just think what that have been me.
I mean, I don't know, I just know that I read that book, but
that, that little book that she wrote and I thought it was smart
and funny and I love that she, she was also painted as a
failure, like what a failure. And I say to that is in the
book. I say the moment.
She got on that Ferry with her bike.
She's a success. She's a winner because to me,
Like this book to me should be, it's like, it doesn't matter
whether you achieved the goal, like you tried, people who are
trying, that's all I want to keep trying.
I mean, I think it, maybe it's because my life is an artist
this feast and famine lifestyle, I've had like, I have huge wins
and then I've big, you know, it's like, keep trying.
As I said at the very end of the introduction, I said you know,
we're going to we get knocked down, but we always get up.
We always get up. We and and that's, that's why I
also like intersectional that like queer people, people of
color women, like know, we've got your back, we've got your
liquids. Where do we got to do this
together? Because The patriarchy is it's a
fuckin powerful drug, man. It's a terrible drug.
I'm a pharmacist. I don't recommend those drug
terrible side effects, terrible. Terrible side of it's bad for
all involved. Even men.
It's not good. Oh no.
But it's interesting. You bring up.
Yeah, no, I just want to say, I mean, the P-trap, sorry, there's
a lag. There's a lag.
But yeah. Like there is not good for
anybody but it's just not good for anybody.
Okay, now I'm done. Needed to be said, Thank you.
And the intersectionality is really, really important
something. I learned a lot of great things
from reading this book, so thank you.
This is literally my jam this book.
I love it so much. So thank you and something I
learned that I had no idea was about the, the drag kings that
came to the America and they're like, the great great
grandmother's of, like, women in comedy.
I had no idea and you're a comedian yourself, and I'm
wondering how the playing field for female comedians has changed
since any hand, okay? Came to America all the Lord.
Listen, I certainly am not an expert and I haven't been on
stage as a comedian in a number of years.
I do think of myself more as a humorist now because I do the
written word, but yeah, I started in comedy and I it was
definitely part of like pushing my feminist agenda from the very
beginning and I liked attention, like, I told, like I mentioned
early, like, I was very much like, you know, look at me.
That was, I had to get a lot of therapy and then when I got
there P, I'm It it less but I'm still love to write jokes.
So but in terms of how things have changed for female
comedians, look, I don't know, I'm not the expert and I'm not
even going to pretend, but I will say this, my favorite
comedians, the comedians that I think are the best are women.
It's not because I mean I don't know what other people are
seeing, I just know that I think that the that some people have
blinders on and they and and they they some dudes of blinders
on and they think that comedy is like a man's game.
Um, it's like I don't even know what you're seeing.
It's like, you're on a different planet because to me, the people
that are the absolute best. I mean, we're talking Maria
Bamford, we're talking Beth Stelling.
Oh God, I could name so many. Those are two of my absolute
favorite comedians, just at Circle cocksucka.
Oh my God. Her new special on HBO Max like
like it's it's like these are the best people doing it for my
money. And And so I can't really answer
your. I don't think I'm the expert to
answer that question. However, when I was discovering
any hindle and that she came over from England and her whole
Act was male and personation obviously the turn, I don't know
when the term drag king or drag queen came into to usage.
I know that that's not what they were called back.
Then at the turn of the century, they were called male
impersonators and that was her whole act.
And so it was like singing Saying it was like song.
It was very witty, it was all comedy, it was all funny right.
But it was also the rescinding involvement.
So the Acts were very much like I mean it came, it was the
variety stage, it came out of Vaudeville.
And so this she was supposedly, you know, the notices that you
read about any hindle was that it was just like, she, like it
was jaw-dropping right that she could make you think that she
was a man doing doing these these songs and jokes, and she
would banter with the Audience. And so, when I was studying her
reading, some academic books about her and the, and one of
the writers Scholars said, you know, this is, this is the
earliest form of women in comedy.
I just got chills because it's like, those are the shoulders
that we stand on, you know? And and as I say in the chapter,
I'm pretty annoyed that drag kings are.
So in the shadows when compared to drag queen, Ins and that, you
know, obviously RuPaul's Drag Race has changed the game.
It's changed everything. I'm obsessed with that,
everybody. I know is obsessed with it but I
don't really understand. First of all, why isn't there
been a king season? I mean, that just seems like a
natural like, like there's been, you know, it's in Canada.
Now, it's in the UK. It's in Australia.
Like their drag race is all over.
So they're definitely diversifying in terms of going
to all these different countries.
How about And all King season or how about a mixed season?
How about? It's all drag?
Because the thing is, there's more like there's more gender
fuck people now in 2023 than ever before, in terms of people,
like drag performers, who a don't identify, as either gender
people who are fully decked out in feminine Garb, but with
massively hairy chests, like we need to see like we need drag to
diversify, we need to, to Really welcome in everybody.
Like everybody and that includes bio Queen's, right?
It's just like, I want to be. It's like, I kind of want to do
drag and I want to be able to do male and female characters,
right? Like, I like that to me, it's
like the more, the more like, fuck it up as possible.
And I just would think that RuPaul would be behind that.
You know what I mean? Like, let's talk it up and so I
just have a bug in my craw, that's a very old sentence.
That's like such an old phrase like from a different
generation. In my craw about the fact that
drag Kings don't really have the representation, the respect, the
platform that they should and I kind of want to do more writing
about it. I don't know how I'm going to do
that whether it's like an article like a like a feature, I
don't know. I just keep thinking about it,
you know what I mean? Because I think would be great
for me too. I mean I would think I would
love it. Like to actually do it to
perform it and then to write about it and to To write a book.
The people that should have a lot more attention.
It actually is very annoying, isn't it?
Like, don't you think it's crazy that it's like all the most
famous drag performers or like Queens.
Yeah, like, I never heard of this is gonna sound weird, but I
like, I never heard of drag Kings before I watched, like the
L word, and they talked about drag Kings and I was like, oh,
this is the thing, too. Because I thought it was only
drag queens, but it would be amazing to see just like
dragons, especially with the way drag is being treated in
America. I feel like that kind of piece,
whatever medium it is, would be. So it would be incredible and
Edge like educational, in a way because it's more than just like
male. Female impersonator whatever.
It's more than that it's a community thing.
It's a cultural thing. It, you know came out of a
historical time period. Those tough for people and like
it could be anything and expanded like you said, and the
possibilities are endless and I mean, shouldn't be shocked that
you had never heard of dry Kings, but I'm sure there's a
lot of people that don't know and if you're listening to this
podcast, look in your town, go online and search drag King
shows because they do exist. They're just not as popular in
smaller venues, like they're just a little A bit more
underground which is why we should support them because
that's dope. Like when I finally went and saw
my first drag King show, I was like that's that's love and and
just actually feeling like pure joy.
I was like I'm so in love like I'm so in love.
So and then I just was like, I want to know more.
I want to do it. I mean, there's some incredible
performers in Los Angeles, but even them, you don't hear about
it in. This is Sara Lee.
Like you kind of have to go a little bit digging so I urge
people to seek out drag King performer performances.
And a true Paul. If for some reason you're
listening to this podcast, please take us up on the
diversify, gasp affected we probably watch.
I mean I would have like I would like I would I would love to
help you be what do you call those people who like go out and
they Scout, I would love to scout for you.
You know, I can hit the road. There's a lot of people who just
in this city who would be fantastic on the show but yeah,
repeal call me. Yeah, call Tracy.
So, throughout your career, you've had a number of different
creative jobs. What was the journey like going
from comedian to actor to like writer?
So I totally thought I was just going to be an actor, you know?
And I went to theater school and liked it for about 5 minutes and
then I was just like so anxious to start my life.
I was like, this is boring and stupid and nobody's inspiring
me. And I thought like, University
was going to be like standing on my desk saying O Captain my
Captain to Robin Williams, like I just thought like higher
education was going to just like fill me with uh you know.
And so I said to my parents I have to drop out and they said
please don't drop out and I said I have to drop out and so I did
and I moved downtown Toronto and I thought I was gonna be an
actor and I just went to all the theater, I just was obsessed
with theater and seeing shows and acting and then at an
audition, I met someone that was like, you're really funny.
We're looking for Another girl in our comedy troupe.
It just like you've hurt you. We've all heard it a million
times. We're looking for a girl.
I guess I'm a girl. So, I just suddenly found myself
in a sketch, comedy troupe in Toronto, and, you know, sort of
the alternative comedy scene which was really big at the
time. And we got a lot of attention.
And I started to do characters, like, I started to do stuff that
wasn't stand up. I started off doing like, you
know, Mom, Logs and character B, whatever.
And people would, I was just on all these shows and then I start
to do stand-up and because I just was like, I could just do
it all, you know, and then Second City Came Calling, which
was amazing. So, Second City, huge
institution started in Chicago also Toronto and they said, you
know, we'd like you to audition for the main stage, which is
very unusual. Usually, you sort of work your
way through Second City training company, and then you eventually
get to audition, but they had seen my work.
Work and I don't know why. I was just that a young thing,
23 and they said, come and audition and I had never
improvised. So then they were like and
you're going to improvise anyway.
It was, I just kind of got thrown into it, which was
amazing. Because guess what, when you're
thrown into full you gotta learn to swim.
So then I was Second City mainstage and that you know, I
was very lucky. I got a lot of mentions in a lot
of reviews. I got a lot of attention and so
that then naturally led to an acting.
Career. So, I was acting in a lot of TV
Canadian television. Some American stuff that was
shooting in Canada. And I there, I was like, just
like I told my parents I'm going to do this, then I was doing it,
and it was, it was sort of a mixed.
Like, you know, I started in the comedy and I was doing the
comedy but obviously, I want it to work.
I want to make money and so I was TV and film.
Theater, some musicals and I made a decision.
Like I could have gone down this musical route early on On.
And I just noticed that, like, I don't know if this is true
everywhere, I bet it is but like you probably a lot of actors.
Probably go. Well, if I go down that road
like your you can't, they don't really think of it as fluid.
They think. Well now you're that, you're
just that your musical theatre performer and yup.
So I just was like, I don't want to be boxed in.
I really loved doing musicals, I would still love.
I would love to do another musical.
Truly the last one I did was like 2009, and with Andrew Lloyd
Weber himself, I thought it was a pretty good note to out on.
Yeah, that's amazing to work with Andrew Lloyd Webber.
And we did it. He was doing, like, sort of like
his version of like out-of-town tryouts.
So he took the musical to Winnipeg.
There's a very big dealer in Manitoba called Manitoba Theatre
Center. So we did a run in Manitoba and
then we did a run at the Royal Alex in Toronto, which is a
huge, beautiful historic theater and he flew in on his private
jet. And I, I just, I still can't
believe like I work with Angela Webber.
Did he talk to me personally? Did he know me my name?
No, no, no, no. He did not, but I was like the
second female lead in this show. So I was, I mean, I was thrilled
and I would love to do more musicals.
I mean, I want to do it all. But there's, there's pros and
cons to this, which is if you pick one lane, maybe you could
stay in that lane and then you get bigger and bigger and
bigger. And then maybe you have more
stability, but that just different interests in Like I
want diversity, I want variety. I want to mix it up but with
that comes I think sometimes moments of real instability.
You know what I mean? And it can be scary but I keep
but I chose it, I chose it and I chose it for a reason.
It's like when you go to a restaurant or a wine tasting or
any like and there's the choice of you can have this one thing.
Or you can have this sort of platter or a flight of drinks.
Like I will always choose the combo, the variety of flight
because I like, I like to sample and try its.
I just realized this recently about myself, like the way that
I choose to eat and drink is the way that I've chosen, what I do
with my career. And so I say this, because if
anybody is listening like, I used to feel bad about it, like
why didn't you just pick one thing and then just like Excel
and like just have stability? It's just like, well, I just
want to flip that on its head and be like, I love that about
myself. I do it for a reason.
Reason I like it but there are hard moments in your life when
you do that. But you know what, sorry, you
know what I mean? Like, I'd rather have moments of
instability or challenges than boredom.
Right. So yeah, that was a really all
over the place. Answer to your question, but I
oh, I didn't answer the writing part.
So I came to, so I got my green card because I had this, you
know, pretty healthy acting career in Canada, right?
So I was awarded the Green Card. An alien of extraordinary
ability. Can you even raising?
No, no, please. Yeah, I went around and I just
would So people, excuse me. Excuse me.
And so I was auditioning and I was here and I was like, I
wanted to, I'm going to try and what make it.
And I just started writing more and more.
As soon as I came to Los Angeles, I just started to write
more and more and I had this play in, it got picked up by a
major Theater in Toronto and and I was like, oh I wrote a play
and then I wrote a TV like a sample episode of television and
then I got this award at this like Television Festival in
Banff and because of that award, I then got staffed on my first
show like as a writing job on that.
And so it kind of just like started to happen and I was and
I was like, you know what, I think this is good.
I'm gonna I'm gonna like put all my eggs in this basket.
This writing basket. Well, that is soon as I said,
I'm going to put all my eggs in this writing bastard.
I got cast as a lead on the Canadian TV show.
We did four seasons of that and so and then I won like sort of
the Canadian version of of the Emmy Award for acting on that
show. So I thought life is funny.
Just when you think you're going to try to make decisions and
like tell life this is what I'm doing now.
You kind of have to throw that out the window and say life
might have other plans and so that was great.
I was acting I was writing and again I told you at the
beginning about how like I Just Came Upon This writing books and
I couldn't be happier. It was such a it was such a it
was such an enjoyable experience, writing the book, it
wasn't angst-ridden. And I think again, it was
because my companions were all the women in this book, you know
what I mean? Like they were with.
Yeah, they were my sisters, my mother's my brethren, Yeah.
I mean what? And what an incredible journey
and yeah like to write and learn about these.
Women must have been what an experience to like really dive
into that. It was amazing.
So you mentioned earlier that you have another book that's
coming out, we wanted to ask like our last question was just
what other projects do you have going on and if you can talk
about that book or not, well I won't like I lay as I mentioned
earlier, I guess I get superstitious right like I get
very nervous about talking about stuff because I will say, I am
working on a second book and we just started to go out to
editors. And Publishers just this past
week and you know I'm hopeful. I love this new project, I think
it would be a great companion, piece to Frank, it's definitely
like the same tone the same Vibe not obviously about women who
disguise themselves in any way but you know I let me be frank
sold so quickly and it was it all happened really fast and it
was really Amazing. So I'm told by my other my
author friends that that doesn't necessarily always happen.
So I've measured my expectations in terms of like I'm very
hopeful that it's going to sell, but at the same time I mean I'm
just also open to this idea that like I just said like like life
might have other plans for me and there are various irons in
the fire, I will say we're also my fingers are all Super Cross
because we're in negotiations with some producers.
So who want to option? Let me be frank.
To possibly turn it into something else, right?
Whether that be something on screen or something, I don't
know. It's all very negotiation phase
and I'm very hopeful because it would be some sort of an amazing
full-circle moment to because it started off as a TV idea.
I don't know if it will, if will if you know it again.
So many question marks. You just have to keep putting
one foot in front of the other and go like, I want to keep
telling these stories. I want to keep pushing my
feminist agenda and dismantling the patriarchy in any way that I
can while having a sense of humor, but that also includes I
have to have a sense of humor about me.
My life, my career? My we it's like the older.
I get the more I go. I'm just so sick of this worry.
Like I just like I just I just want to like embrace It's really
hard to embrace uncertainty, wouldn't you say?
It's very it's really, it's really hard but its power.
It's a powerful thing to be able to do to say, I have a sense of
humor I'm alive. I woke up today right on, you
know, and I've gotten to do a lot of amazing things, and I'm
going to keep trying my best to continue to do things this all
sounds very like, Tracy. Do you need to talk to your
therapist? But this is therapy for us to
hear. Yes, I just did a podcast
episode with my friend who's in Australia and it was all about
rejection and like the gifts that rejection gives us.
It's a Sabbath like failure, rejection grief, these are huge
things that also come with gifts and I think you only learn that
by being alive longer, like continuing to live and realizing
that there's That there's gifts there and so I'm in this really
uncertain place but there's like irons in the fire.
So you just go. Okay, let's just like keep
plowing ahead and my doing my best to like be nice to myself.
If there's anything I could tell your listeners do your best
today to be nice to yourself. What is that?
Is that cheesy? No, it's something.
I feel like people need to hear like I need to hear it every
once in a while, so like thank you for that.
We appreciate it. So much love.
I just I just have so much love for for those of us who are
trying to fight the good fight. Yes, and thank you for creating
work out there that does fight the good fight and presents it
in such a fun way like that. Those are all the questions we
have for you today. I don't know if you have any
final words for our listeners or we can just leave it at that
last message. That was pretty good.
It was very like, well please find me on Instagram or Twitter,
I have the same handle. It's at Dawson Tracy.
I'd love to see you. You can hear it because it's
like that's where all my stuff about my different.
It's or anything like new projects and stuff like that,
and I just love chatting with you today.
I hope I hope I made sense. It's, is that if that's so silly
when people like you never hear a man say that I hope I made
sense strike it from the record. You sometimes it doesn't make
sense. I wish they would.
Oh they're our listeners will leave you with that but yes
please support Tracy find her on all the social medias and check
out, let me be frank it's you will not regret it, it's
amazing. It's quick read, it's awesome.
You'll learn a lot, it's an enjoyable read for being with us
today, it's an enjoyable read and it's a if you know you can
purchase it. I will say even though it's an
evil conglomerate and I don't know when this episode is going
to air but for women's History Month, Amazon has made it an
incredible discounted price like You know, if you're against
them, trust me. I also am however, I understand
needing a good bargain, a good deal and so you know, go find
the book and you know what? It's also in a lot of libraries,
I'm so thrilled to say I love libraries, so if you want to go
check it out of the library, I would love it.
Yes. So check out the book anywhere,
you can get it and thank you so much for being with us with us
today. Tracy, we had so much fun
talking to you. This is great.
Thank you so much you as well, this is great.
This is great. All right guys, we're going to
sign off for now and we'll see you next time.
Bye bye. And with that, we've been big
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