Hello, and welcome to Big Gay Energy.
I'm Bree. I'm Theora.
And I'm Caitlin. Come along with us while we dive
into the fun and nuances of queer media.
Representation matters, and we're here to talk about it.
Cheers queers. Today on The Big Gay Agenda, we
are talking with Robbie Taylor Hunt.
Robbie is the intimacy coordinator who's worked on many
projects including Matriarch You and Red, White and Royal Blue.
Welcome to the podcast, Robbie. Hi, thank you so much for having
me. Happy to be here.
We have been dying to talk to somebody with your job because
it's just so fascinating. I mean, the first time you hear
it, you're like, what the heck is that?
So can you tell us what does an intimacy coordinator do?
Totally so. Intimacy coordinators are
basically there to facilitate and choreograph intimate
content. Intimate content is a huge
umbrella and a subjective umbrella for different people.
People typically think that we're talking simulated sex and
nudity. They are the big ones, of
course. And kissing, Sometimes people
think of. So we're actually there for kind
of anything which someone might consider to be interaction.
So like physical touch, particularly kind of erotic or
sensual physical touch, but really any physical touch,
medical scenes, scenes of bodily functions, childbirth, there's
really a lot that can go under that umbrella and we're there
with sort of two hats on. So I think of the kind of safety
and well-being hat making sure that people are happy and
comfortable working within their boundaries, that that everyone's
communicating clearly. The people are kind of happy and
clear. We're proud of the work that
they're making and then the kind of choreographic movement hat.
So with more the creative lens, how can we do justice to this
moment of the story? How can we make this make sense
for these characters and the script?
That furthers the narrative in a way that we want it to happen.
So they're the kind of key tenants of the work.
Yeah, amazing. Yeah, I guess.
Question. How do you train to do intimacy
coordinating? I'm just curious, what does the
training for that look like? Yeah, there's different pathways
for different people, but it is a role that requires proper
training and a really rigorous understanding of the practice
before you go into it. Obviously, people are putting a
lot of faith and and trust in you.
It can be something where you're, you know, meeting people
and quite quickly having to establish a sense of like, OK,
you're going to put some real trust in me to make sure this
process goes smoothly. And so we need to make sure as a
community that there is. Proper training process and
experience that comes into that. So that for the sake of the
industry, for the sake of those performers particularly that
we're working with, people feel supported.
People train in in different ways.
The different training programs which have slightly different
capacities. But yeah, I personally, I I've
trained with a company called intimacy for stage and screen
where you apply sort of having to already have a certain level
of experience. So I my background's in theater
and I was working as a director and and facilitator of workshops
and working with actors and. Movement capacities and fight
capacities like fight direction. So I sort of had the kind of
movement understanding and safety well like physical safety
particularly with fight and then I was volunteering with a
brilliant organization who are now called Beyond Equality.
So with that was sort of running workshops with boys and young
men around consent and gender based violence and masculinity
and so it's had a facilitation and consent language and that
sort of fed into it as well and then.
With that training program with intimacy for stage and screen,
that was across a year. We have light long weekends,
weekends rather across that year spread throughout and sort of
what you do in between where you really build a robust sense of
consent and communication and closure practices and
choreographic tricks and modesty comments and and all sorts.
And then as you sort of start to work you then we'll get sort of
mentorship support or peer support as you begin to work in
the industry. But I was in this sort of.
Not the very earliest days, but sort of earlier days.
And it's great to see that over the years there's an
increasingly robust sense of what that training looks like in
the US, intimacy directors and coordinators and T i.e.
And also there's lots of various training bodies and I won't know
the ins and outs of them in North America.
Who have like now really robust sense of training it seems.
And in the UK there's various training bodies, moving body art
in the UK have just announced their training program for which
will launch pretty soon. They're brilliant.
So they're really like brilliant educators making sure that we
have the next generation of intimacy coordinators.
Yeah, so how long has intimacy coordinators been a thing?
Cuz it seems fairly recent. Yeah, so the first sort of known
intimacy coordinator on a TV project to my knowledge was
Alicia Rodas in 2017 on the deuce season two, I think in the
US and then the UK sort of 2018, we were getting it.
So it's like pretty recent. I I just don't know if that's
longer than you thought or not, but because of COVID as well,
that sort of then means that even though it's sort of
technically 5-6 years, it's sort of not really but before that.
I mean Tonya Cena in the noughties, I think like 2006 or
7 apologies. Tonya was had written her
masters about intimate choreography and sort of
beginning to try and figure out working with actors in this
capacity. Adam Noble and 2011 was writing
for a kind of Fight and stunts magazine, I believe, about sort
of staging sexual violence and then working on sort of extreme
and intimate choreography and and how he went about not
choreographing that I'm from New Zealand originally and what with
the. Kiwis and helped to set up
intimacy coordinators out Toro and Equity New Zealand in like I
think it's like 2015 or something like pretty early.
Did a sort of talk with actors and with.
Movers and shakers in the industry about working on
intimacy to try and establish practice.
So although it's sort of only got formalized in the last few
years, of course people have been trying to figure it out in
their own ways. There's been movement directors
and choreographers and fight directors and stuff,
coordinators who have been having to deal with intimate
scenes and have been trying their best to make it work, as
well as directors and costume departments.
Often that would fall on there. Full to them to try and like
making nudity feel safe. Basically as long as there has
been like live performance and theater, there has been senses
of intimacy and there have been people dealing with it in some
way and that has sometimes been very bad and sometimes been good
and sometimes been fine and everything in between.
So yes, more formally last couple of years, but I kind of.
Like to give a sense of that there is that history and that
legacy and there've been people working on in all sorts of ways
who might not even be kind of properly known about or or
credited in this, in the journey of what it's taken to get
intimacy, coordination to where it is now.
Yeah, it seems like it because you mentioned like communication
and trust building between performers and whoever's
supervising seems like that would that would be a huge
benefit to have a point person that is specifically in charge
of that so like. What What are instances in
which, like the intimacy coordinator would like, I guess,
step in on behalf of the performer to kind of intervene
like on a project? Yeah, it's a really good point
what you say, because I think some directors feel like they
work really well with actors. They have a real good sense of
trust. Costume teams can sometimes be
like, look, we really know what we're doing.
We have a really good sense with the with the performance of what
this is movement folks like any there's lots of producers like.
I think sometimes people feel a bit threatened that we're
turning up to be like, you're being terrible, we're here to do
it right, which isn't true at all.
Like, they might have an amazing relationship and be really good
at dealing with it, but ultimately they're doing so many
things that costume departments are so stretched, they have so
much they're trying to do. Directors are focusing on 1000
things. There's 1000 people they're
trying to please. And we are there like with such
a priority for well-being and making sure this goes well and
that people are feeling pleased and proud of this work that
they're making so. I think, yeah, it's partly just
that that is our like real focus and something that we're
particularly looking out for when we step in is basically,
yeah, I mean with those kind of two hats you're thinking about
particularly with the kind of wellbeing side of things, it's
if things are just beginning to shift amiss.
So whether that is that could be for so many reasons, right.
It could be that I'm just sort of sensing that something's that
someone's beginning to sort of tire or feel a bit uncomfortable
in a situation. Or something is going on.
It might not even be clear what it is, but part of being an
intipacy coordinator is you're quite good at kind of reading
people and sort of empathy and emotional intelligence in that
way. So if you can just sort of sense
that something's going a bit wrong, that you can step in and
be like, how are things going? And they can.
Then relate to you something you might have never imagined, could
have no one could have planned for and that they can speak to
you. If people are using sort of
unprofessional inappropriate language can be something that
you kind of trying and shift that that sense of things we try
and work in on an anatomical professional language right.
But particularly step in if things are shifting beyond what
was agreed, so if firstly in the kind of most obvious sense.
If you've agreed a level of nudity or a certain type of
simulated sexual action, that will usually be in an actor's
rider. Well, it has to be an actor's
rider. So that means that it sort of
contractually actually can't go beyond that.
So for the sake of production as well, if things start to shift
and become a higher level of nudity or simulated sex than
what's planned, I'm there to be like, oh, this actor actually
didn't agree to that, even though there's sort of.
Beginning to move into it and maybe they're see even saying
that they're OK, like we just need to check in that they
definitely are OK. But also like we have to stop
and and talk about this because that's not what's in the rider
and we won't get into the boring like technicalities of this
because. But in the US, to my knowledge
I'm not American and you're not allowed in a sag after after a
contract to change a rider within 48 hours.
In the UK that's not a thing. So you can change it, but you
need to. Step away and I actually change
that or else you might not be able to use that footage, right.
So I might intercept in that way.
If a director is just being inappropriate or trying to kind
of do something which I feel is like weaponizing sort of power
dynamics or infringing on a performance boundaries, then
I'll have to step in. But.
And then the other times I step in and when I'm like creatively
this just looks terrible or like I think it's not telling the
story you want it to tell. Like it doesn't make like sense.
And like I'm a queer intimacy coordinator if just off it'll be
kind of like the round look like queer mechanics of sex that I'm
like that just doesn't Queer viewers will not resonate with
this. Then sometimes I'll step in and
be like we gotta do something here, like just, you know, I'm
and they can ignore me, but like.
And I won't put my foot down in the same way, right, If it's
sort of creative reasons over well-being, but then sometimes I
will. Yeah, try and try and make a
comment at least. Have you watched Dickinson?
No, OK. I only ask because some of their
scenes was very reminiscent of a recent project that you've done,
and I wasn't sure if like you had any hand in that because it
was, it was very great. I'll just say that.
OK. OK, great.
I'll watch it. Is there a different approach
you have to LGBTQ plus scenes? Yeah, So I mean in in lots of
ways, no, right that you're still doing all the same things
you gotta do. You're still speaking to actors,
being to directors, talking about the scenes, talking to
costume. Hair makeup if you need to,
stunts if you need to, Assistant director teams, like all that
stuff is still the kind of foundations of the work are the
same. The differences are that around
L, GB, TQ, plus scenes I have a bit more of an eye for.
Kind of like what assumptions have been made around how this
scene is going to be constructed, and does this feel
realistic? If realism is what we're going
for, it's not what it's working for.
Does it feel realistic for this type of sex and for this
community? And I feel a bit more of a sense
of responsibility to like the queer viewers, right, of going
what? How is this going to situate
within like a body of work of like queer representation?
And you know, because I'm, I care about that, that body of
work and and how it situates within that going.
I might be more likely to say just so you know, team like,
we're doing something which is a bit of a trope within like queer
representations. It's not something which doesn't
happen. It does happen.
But just to know that, like that might be something that people
will pick up on, right? And I'm there for sort of
production the creative team, if they have those questions
because they might not know or might not, you know, they might
be really excited about saying which they think is a really
interesting take on queerness. And I'm like, actually, like the
queer community is kind of like, we get that and we get that a
bit too much and like it would be more.
Realistic or dynamic or interesting if we sort of skewed
inside this way so there's there's sort of that creative
set of things and then working on L, GB, TQ plus content.
I never like ask the the sexual experiences of the performers I
work with of course like that is their personal life.
This is professional work. There's a boundary between that,
but I'm like more likely to explain Either an actor might
disclose that they don't know this type of sex or.
But regardless, I may be more likely to kind of make sure I'm
really clear with the beats of what the sex will look like and
what the feelings might be and how we might perform that.
I mean, we do that whenever we've never assumed that someone
has an experience of sex. No matter what you're you're
doing, like you always embed it in choreography and and like
kind of physical movement language.
But with any kind of clear choreography and quick content,
I might be a little like more clear and specific about those
things because. Partly just, I feel like it's
not done well very often, so I want to make it really clear and
really good. And because queer, straight,
CIS, trans, anything, you're we've just seen less queer
content. So regardless of your actual
identity, you've seen it less. You might just be like slightly
less able to like feel like you can really confidently embody
that. So is everything really
calculated rather than? I guess the word would be like
improv in a scene? Sorry about sirens.
Yeah. So, yeah, when I'm not really in
the business of improv, but but that's not to say.
And yes, we're really about choreographing it and making it
clear within that. But that's also not to say that
it's like aggressively, like it has to be exactly this or I'm
gonna kick off like, depending on the project.
And depending on the needs of the actors, it can be about
creating like a framework and a container for what something is
and then what it's definitely not.
And then allowing effort be some like scope of of finding it
within that and then having a really robust sense of how you
check in through that process. So some performers I work with
really don't want certain types of touch or certain type of
kissing or whatever it is. And we make that clear, we'll go
through that and make sure that their boundaries are going to be
respected and then. You might create like a shape of
it or like some key beats we want to hit, but we might not
absolutely everything. Every hand mover we might we
might not say exactly what those have to be and but that like
some actors and and intimacy coordinators might, you know,
will work a bit differently in that capacity.
But you know, I have a colleague, Lucy Fennel, who's
brilliant, whose background is in improv, and she's really
interested in how that intersects of like improv and
intimacy because. Sort of part of intimacy is
informed consent, right. You have to be informed about
something that's going to happen.
And sort of that feels like inherently at loggerheads with
improv. But actually, you know, she's
really big on the fact about how and she's not the only one.
I'm sure there's lots of people working in this field of like
how you can actually marry that. And you know there's there's
truly like improv shows just doing improv who can embed a
good intimacy practice into their shows.
And I really believe that like and I think us being too like.
If you have any improv, then it's not intimacy, and that's
terrible. I think that actually just does
a disservice because that is gonna happen.
There are improv shows. There are directors and actors
who want to work with an element of improv.
And that's OK as long as we have the kind of support system in
place. That's my opinion.
Got. It no.
And that makes perfect sense. And I've heard I've read that in
quotes of people being like, well, it takes the spontaneity
out of it, but the marriage of the two seems like really the
key because. Communication, trust and all
those things. Exactly.
It's like, you know, you're going, yes, I want to be
spontaneous, but actually can't be spontaneous because all I'm
worried about is that my Co star is going to touch this part of
my body or do this thing that I really don't want them to do and
then I'm there to go, right. This isn't happening.
This is the framework of what roughly needs to happen.
Anyone got any problems? And you're like, yeah, I also
worry that you're going to do this.
And they're like, oh, no, let's definitely not do that.
We go, great, OK, let's like, work this through and let's find
spontaneously what happens with this kind of quality.
And then? You go for and then afterwards
someone says that's perfect. Apart from this moment, I feel
like it went a bit too far. Can we, like, not do that next
time we go? Yeah, great, let's not do that
next time. Like, it doesn't have to be this
like real. I think some people who say the
kind of kill spontaneity thing thinks I'm going to come in with
like a clipboard and a high vis jacket and be like.
Everyone stay away from each other and do exactly what I say
here. I'm gonna report everyone like
that's not this is about, I'm there to like make it work and
make people feel like they can do their jobs in a like creative
way that they're pleased about. So yeah, I think people just
don't. Usually people who say that I
have, like, not actually worked for an intipa sequence, they
just don't like the idea. Of it.
And they've just decided in their head kind of what it is.
It's very strange. Yeah, and it seems like.
That would be, you know, advantageous, especially to an
actor who's never been in an intimate scene on that level
before. So how do you approach an actor
if it's like, it's their first like sex scene ever?
Like how would you approach that particular performer?
Yeah, yeah. I mean it's so nerve wracking,
right? Like I think people, some people
have like oh, they're actors or whatever.
Like no, like they want to be an actor.
They don't necessarily know that they are gonna have to do this.
Or like, even if they think they might have to do it, it's still
such a. It's a big thing to have to do
at work in front of all your colleagues.
Then I go on lunch and then come back to work the next day.
Like it's very strange. So basically when I come to work
with new actors, it's just, you know, actually early career or
even sometimes I've worked with actors who are not early career
and they were like, look, I've managed to get through my career
without having to do one of these scenes and I thought it
would be my time at some point. And look, here it is, it's my
time. I have to do it.
It's just about being really clear with the process and and.
Really having space for them to ask all those questions that are
in the back of their head, they're worried about so many
times there's just something that they're worried is going to
happen or they've had a friend have a bad experience, which
they're like apparently this might happen sometimes.
Like, is that a thing? And I can go it can be.
We're going to make sure that doesn't happen or like this is
what we do, if that happens, etcetera.
So it's basically coming to it with no assumptions, really,
going from square one and explaining absolutely everything
and then answering. Ask you any questions they have
because you just can't predict what is in someone's head with
people and personalities and creativity, like that's such a
subjective space. You just got to meet people
where they're at. So yeah, I just might give a
little bit more time. I might ask production either to
have a bit more rehearsal or to make sure we have rehearsal,
depending what the content is. Some scenes, they might go, oh,
there's enough time to rehearse on the day, if it's something
kind of lower level for some. The earlier career or actors who
haven't had experience of intimacy, I might say no, look,
we really should have a time to rehearse this before.
And yeah, it's really that. But then sometimes there were
people who've done like tons of sex scenes and they still really
want support through it. And then some people who it's
their first time and they feel completely empowered and
completely fine. So you like the more I do this
job, the more I think that I'll, like settle into like, knowing
what's what. And actually just the more I go,
you can never know. Like there is no, there's no
that you can't assume that anything's gonna be the case.
You've just gotta approach each project as it comes.
I've seen a couple people I don't remember who.
Who've been like in the industry a while.
Talk about how they don't understand why intimate state
coordinators have to be there. I don't want to work with them.
Have you faced any reluctance from people?
Yeah, totally. It's a bit less, Bit less so
nowadays. But like in those early years,
it makes me sound like I'm ancient.
But in those early years working with people for the first time,
there's a lot yeah, weird resistance either like, you know
active resistance where people are sort of going like I didn't
know what this is or why I need it or a sort of confusion that
ends up as a sort of frustrated unwillingness to to properly
collaborate. But it's much better now.
Now I don't find I have such a problem and it's people are now
like okay. I've worked with one or two
intimacy coordinate like this is fine.
Yeah. People I think people were
worried that we were sort of stepping on toes that would tell
people they're not allowed to do what they want to do.
Even really recently I worked on something where the director
came to me with a real energy of like don't worry like they don't
have to do anything and we can keep it really small and we can
just do like if they don't want to do it, we don't have to do
it. Like let me know.
And I was like I'm not here to like shut it down.
Like I'm here to make it work and and work in a way that
people can be happy with this intimacy including you director.
So they tell me what you actually want.
And if you have quite bold ideas for what it is, then tell me as
bold it is. And it might not be possible.
But like, I'm the person who can, like, help make that happen
if you wanted to. And he's kind of like, oh, OK.
And then I spoke to the actors and they were like, could not be
more chill about it. So I could like actually help to
carefully make something which was a bit higher intensity than
he was sort of initially asking for because he was sort of
really like low, low, low, low about it all.
And he was like, yeah, this is perfect.
And I was like, yeah, like, look, it's fine.
I'm here to like make it work. You're like, that's my job,
Well, literally my job to make it happen in a safe way.
So there was a lot of that kind of like winning over sometimes
had to happen and having to be sort of hesitant and not look
like, yeah, you're gonna ruin everything for people.
And yeah, I mean, actors, we usually happier to have you
there, but some actors as well were kind of sometimes actors
were a bit like burnt by the fact that this that, you know,
you arriving then they're like, I haven't had this for years of
my career. And now you're turning up and
like you're going to just swan in and like make this a good
process. Like there's a sort of weird
resentment about it, which I can totally appreciate.
Like how frustrating that must be to see it start to be done
well and then almost in that realize how badly it's been
treated in the past. Or you've sort of had to like
toughen up and like get a thick skin in order to be able to do
it. And then someone's like, anyway,
you don't need that thick skin the same way I'm here to like
help and you're like, but I've built this thick skin because
I've had to like what are you just I can't just like flick a
switch and turn that off. So yeah, so some of the some of
the resistances is, you know, terrible and based on just like
not really wanting there to be a content based process.
But some of the resistance, I sort of get a bit more of like,
yeah, it's difficult. And, you know, I spoke to a
director really recently who we worked well together and he was
like, look, we had a good time working together.
But the first intimacy coordinator I worked with, they
just turned up one day. And directors, we had no
training or knowledge. We weren't given any tools, like
how we meant to work with intimacy coordinators.
Like, it's quite a weird, like, dynamic.
And I was like, yeah, we've sort of all had to learn on the job.
So I I don't do this often. But to give a bit of due respect
to those directors having to work with the divisive 180 for
the first time and sort of slightly floundering with it.
Like I do appreciate that there was strangeness to that.
But but there was also a real difference between the directors
who are like, I don't really know what I meant to do with
you, but yes, this is important. And the directors who are like,
I don't want to do with you and I don't think this is important,
please go away, but yeah. I'm trying to picture a director
just like so is it a director's choice to have you there or not?
Or is it like higher up on the chain, so now most can have big
production studios. It's like policy.
They have to have an intimacy coordinator.
So like HBO, Netflix, Amazon, BBC, I'm pretty sure like all of
them sort of have like if there's simulated sex, if
there's nudity, you have to have an intimacy coordinator.
So that is like a good basic. But then when you get into kind
of kissing where usually like you should really have us, but
it's sort of a bit less like essential like policy based.
And then all those intimate moments that I mentioned earlier
that really you should have an intimacy coordinator or at least
have to have a conversation around it that can still be
difficult to persuade people that it's needed.
If it comes from an actor, usually, then they're like, OK,
fine, If an actor is like, I want the intimacy coordinates
there depending a bit on the actor and their status, like,
they'll be like finest to it. But to answer your question, so
with that in line, usually it's a producer somewhat higher up
who like engages the intimacy coordinator and then we'll say,
all right, intimacy coordinator do look at all the scripts and
tell us when you're needed. And then there can be a little
bit of like a a negotiation of when you're exactly there and a
really good production though That means that I look at the
script, have a chat with the director about what they're
imagining, have a chat with the actors about how they feel about
it. And then with the actors, the
actors that are like I actually feel completely fine about that
content. Like I don't need you there.
As long as X is happening and you said that's going to happen,
then great. And I'll be like cool, fine.
Like if no one needs me there, I'm not going to, you know,
consent based practice. I'm not going to turn up.
But no one wants to be there. Or an actor says, look, I know
this seems quite low intensity, but like, I really want someone
there. I'm really nervous about it.
And they might say don't tell anyone that I've said you that
like, just between us, I really want you there.
But I want to seem really like aloof and like, I don't care.
Like I'm worried about how I seem.
I don't want to be seen as like a problem or a difficult actor.
So then I have to go to production and be like, I've
decided that it's quite important that I'm there for the
scene. And then they're like, what?
The scene seems really low intensity and I'm like, I just
really want to be there. Then they're like, OK, fine.
So then productions usually, if they're good, are like totally,
and a director can be a bit annoyed.
But I'm just like, look, I'm coming, yeah.
But then sometimes I work with directors who are like, so happy
to have you there, right. I don't want direct seem to be
like the directors are always the kind of barrier to it.
Directors sometimes like, what do you mean?
I have to like, tell this actor how to, like, simulate an
orgasm. Like, this is terrible.
I don't want to have to do that. I'm not prepared to do that as a
director. Please let there be an intimacy
coordinator there who could like, do give me that language.
And I can speak to them in a frank way and they can know and
go and deliver that like in a sensitive way.
Like, you know, obviously it's not just actors and therefore
it's the whole team, the whole crew, production, everyone.
And yeah, yeah, so it can happen.
Feel like it would definitely be easier to have you there.
Yeah, well this is the thing like worst case scenario, like
you know, you might just stand around and not do very much.
But the comparison is like for ages I would always feel a bit
like guilty about being there and then being like I'm not
really doing anything. Everyone is actually fine.
But then it is about risk, right?
Like, if you have like a push, right?
They might have the stunt coordinator there and they do
the push and they're like, actually now we're doing the
push. Everyone's fine.
We don't really do the stunt coordinator.
But thank goodness they're here. In case this push became bigger
or in case we needed we decided we would push against the wall
or he'd trip over or whatever. And no one would bat an eyelid
about having into the stunt coordinator there for that.
And yet we'd be really guilty. Like, thank you so much for
having us here. We're so sorry because it was
this new role when we're there and then weren't really used.
And Ditto, like there's a fire on set.
The fire is very clear. There's a safety in where this
fire's gonna be in one place. No one's near the fire.
Like, it's very safe. But they have to have someone
there to make sure that if something goes wrong with the
fire, there's someone there to, like, be in charge of the fire,
right. So I think, yeah, like you say,
best case scenario you're really involved and like really doing
things and it's and it's that's great.
Worst case scenario, you're standing around and everyone can
just feel confident that rest assured, if something bad
happened, there is the intimacy coordinator here and sometimes
I'm just there and I go, you're clear with what you're doing.
Director let me tell you, they're clear with what they're
doing. Actors, you can come to me if
you need and they're like great. And then everyone can sort of
crack on and I'll check in and I'll be there.
But it's sometimes just being there at all that actually helps
alleviate some stress and means that everyone can do their good
work. So, yeah, yeah, it's yeah.
Do you ever just hang out at Crafty?
Yeah, don't don't. A good crafty situation.
Crafty I should say, tempted me with your American I sound so
British with like craft and craft.
I just sound like that's the most British I could possibly
sound. English I should say.
But yeah, that's a that's a danger for me to be able to do
my job properly if I'm being wooed in by the good craft
services. As long as it's good, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's the that's the important
thing. All right.
That one. OK.
I missed a question, which is why we were.
That's why I was deleting. Yeah.
Sorry. OK, back to it and we can, there
can be other questions, don't worry about whatever is fine.
I didn't even have the question on my screen.
That was the issue. All right, So what is the
difference between intimacy direction and coordination?
So different intimacy professionals use slightly
different language. For me and a lot of my
colleagues, we talk about intimacy direction for live
performance. So typically theater and
intimacy coordination for recorded media.
So music videos, TV film ads, etc.
But some people say intimacy coordination for everything.
Some people like I don't hear you so much intimacy coach used
to be used. We don't really.
I don't know anyone who uses that in terms of this work.
To me, that might be something more about actual people's real
personal. Right.
Like outside of film? Exactly.
So I don't want any confusion, but that's not what I do.
You don't want me to fix your real personal marriage or
anything? Has anyone ever asked you
something like that for like personal in like in at parties
and things people will be like oh so you do this, this that's
part of that world. I'm like, no, no, no, that's
really just that. And in another podcast I did
recently, they were like, you know what's what are some kind
of tools that people can use in their real lives?
And I'm like, well there are sort of things that are inherent
intimacy practice which are just good for people's real lives,
like communication, real rigorous, like consent based
practice. So I can happily talk about
that, but, like, also clear that I'm not here to help people
coordinate their actual intimate lives.
Yeah. It's like a doctor going to a
party. Like, can you check this thing
out? Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah.
But also it's like, it's, I'm such a party people in a way.
Because people be like, oh, yeah, So what?
Like, how does that actually impact, like, real people's
intimacy lives? And I'm like really good consent
practice. And they're like, all right.
Like, you know, I think they want me to say something really
like sexy or like scandalous or exciting or surprising.
And I'm like honestly, the best thing is like being really good
at having a real fluency with consent And and really like
training that skill of how you identify consent and work with
consent and use consent based language like that is the best
thing for working as an intimacy coordinator, which also
translates to people's real intimate lives.
But people don't want to hear that.
That's not, that's not the kind of, yeah, exciting arts they
were hoping for. Have you had since you've been
doing this for a bit? Do you have any, like, memorable
moments from, like, working with actors as an intimacy
coordinator like that you were like, very proud of?
Yeah, yeah, it's hard because a lot of the exciting moments are
like little successes that come when you're working with people
and you managed to just like navigate a little tricky
situation well and and people can be pleased about it.
There's been moments I'm proud of when things have gone very
badly, like this happened very rarely.
There's basically one instance that I remember that obviously I
can't talk about too much detail but when things were going
really awry and it's like the first time I've been on set and
that really happened and going like OK have you take that
little step back and go right okay things that things people
aren't happy things are going wrong and and managing to just
you know advocate for that actor and stop things going properly
wrong and anyone being kind of long term harmed or or any
boundaries being crossed in a in a properly damaging way.
But, but then also doing that in a way that the actor felt like
supported and yet it not for the actor's sake, not made into
something that they didn't want it to be made into, right.
They felt like they could carry on with the scene and have that
support and it and etcetera. And and that was kind of beyond
the shooting of the scene of like how we dealt with that as
well. So I felt proud of that.
The scenes of queerness that I've worked on, where I've
watched it and been like, okay, wow, like, I think that I don't
think that's that scene exists for two queer people.
I don't think that sits like a Canon of theater, of Canon of of
television or film that hasn't been seen before.
And then hearing like queer people's reactions and it
resonating with people like makes me feel very proud.
And like, I think it's really meaningful to think of
particularly like representation is like more like loving and
romantic queer sex. I don't think like we get a lot
of that and particularly like sex scenes between men often
represented quite like fraught and conflicted and rough and
sort of often I love less. And whilst like we should
absolutely have that representation of sex.
Like we have all representations of sex.
Like I think getting to for people who are like look I think
I'm queer. I am queer and I want to just be
able to have like a loving sex. I want to know that it's
possible for me in my future of like having just like nice
loving sex between people and being able to be part of amongst
the actors and directors and everyone be one part of, like,
helping to create. That has has felt very
meaningful. Yeah, yeah, they're the kind of
the big things that I've been proud of, yeah.
But then it's like it's often, honestly, it's sometimes you'll
work on a scene and it will seem quite straightforward.
You'll get through it and it'll be fine.
And then like the actual message you afterwards and say thank you
so much. I was so nervous about it today
and you just made it really straightforward.
And that's like what I'm all about, right?
Like I said that it the people are so, so worried about them.
I mean, I understand that we'll be worried about them, but it's
partly because of the context of how badly they've gone for
people in the past. But to be a part of making that
a safer process and more enjoyable process, or when
people are like that was actually really fun.
Like every good time. I'm really proud of that scene
like that. That makes me feel very happy.
Yeah, that's wonderful to be able to get the validation.
I like that you gave those two examples, the validation from
the performers, creators, and then also the audience, which I
feel like sometimes the audience is missing.
So I'm glad you've had. Where would I have both of those
experiences? Yeah, cuz sometimes the actors
like are completely fine and they're like really like there's
no like danger. They're feeling pretty confident
and and and so really then you get a chance to really craft
something that you feel is meaningful and exciting for
audiences that they can resonate with.
And that's so exciting to get to see that.
And then, yeah, getting to hear people's reactions.
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, so far.
Is there ever a time where you feel like a project has too many
unnecessary, intimate scenes? Yeah, I've I actually, I'm lucky
to have not worked on things where I've gone.
This is so obviously gratuitous. It's more likely to rather than
the scene existing at all. It's more likely to be like how
the scene is like constructed. So going like OK, they're being
a sex scene. It says at the bottom of the
scene like they are having sex or they have sex or like they
start to have sex with me and then you talk to the director
and the actors etc. And then, you know you can do
that in a million ways, right? That can just be a shots of
people's faces and hands. And like, you can it doesn't
just because there is a sex and doesn't mean it needs to feel,
quote UN quote, like gratuitous or explicit or anything like
that. But then sometimes people will
someone, whoever it is, will say, like, I really feel like it
needs to have this in it. Well, like, I think we need to
do this. And I'm not in the business of
like shutting everything down to be really limited just for the
sake of it and to be honest, if if someone what goes like look,
this is just to feel kind of like shocking or feel like it is
really kind of sexually forward and everyone's on board with
that, they're like, fine, I'm not really in.
Again, it's not really my place to go.
This doesn't need to be there because right, like there's lots
of things that don't need to be there.
But if people decide that it is sort of makes sense for the
world of the show and everyone's on board with that, then fine.
But my issue comes with if someone is like really pushing
for some level of nudity or sex or act or whatever it is that an
actor is like, I guess like, yeah, I'm doing that.
And the other scene where I feel like it really makes sense.
I don't know why it really needs to be here for this.
Like, I don't have an issue with it in principle.
I've done it, you know, before and I'm OK with it.
But sometimes actors can get the place where they the fact that
it feels quite unnecessary just also sort of makes them
uncomfortable. And in that case then I'm really
there to be like look like there's other ways we could do
this but sometime before it's even gone to the actor, if
someone a director or producer or it's in the script or or
anything sort of implies quite a high extremity action.
I'll at that point be kind of like, OK, what do you need to
get out of the seat? Like, what do you want the
viewers to to get here, right? Because sometimes then it's like
I want to feel like really shocked or like really surprised
or sort of feel creeped out or whatever it is and I can go, OK,
great. So you you're asking for a level
of nudity, which you think will achieve that.
Maybe that'll be fine. But can I suggest that maybe we
do it in this way or we could do it with seeing this reaction or
with this kind of like moot like physical reaction that we see
which is mainly just played out like above the collarbones,
right? Or we can play it out like
closer shots or the sense of like muscles and their reaction
or backs or whatever, like this, or hands pressed together,
whatever it is, there's like, partly I'm there to give like
creative solutions, right? So even if that's not come, I
mean, definitely if it's come from an actor saying I don't
want to do that, then I come in to go, yeah, doesn't want to do
that. You want to achieve this with
those things. I think this is the best way to
make you both happy. But even before that point, if I
feel like they they think the best way to achieve something is
by a really high level intensity, high intensity level
of intimacy, I might go, OK, like, can I suggest these like
potentials for it? And then sometimes they go, Oh
yeah, that's way better. Or sometimes they go no, for
whatever reason, I really think this is the best way.
And then I go, OK, great, Let's let's talk about that.
Yeah. Does that answer your question?
Yes. All right, so you also have
training in sexual harassment, bullying and harassment,
unconscious bias, queer awareness, bystander
intervention. How does all of those skills
help you as an intimacy coordinator?
Yeah, yeah. So as part of that intimacy for
stage and screen training, like you had to do those things as
part of that. And I think a lot of training
programs will say that you have to to do those those those bits
of training we have to be adult mental health first aiders as
well. So they're all like like
different things. But the, I guess to take a step
back, it's to say you know we're working with sensitive content
and we're there to be able to in those quite those spaces which
are just a little bit more of sight of risk like tensions is
like to be higher, emotions a bit higher.
There's more likely to be some like sticking points or points
where there's a challenge to what someone might feel
comfortable doing. And that little whirlwind of of
space means that those kind of elements of bullying and
harassment, I mean building harassment, sexual harassment,
obviously all those things then are just like more I I feel
slightly more likely to be cut in play.
But what's really important to remember is that, you know, we
are there sometimes like 1% of the time, right, depending on
what the nature of the project is and the production just need
to have a robust sense of this stuff regardless of us being
there and we're not there to be sort of bullying and harassment
police obviously, right? That is like HR, that is
production. That is a separate thing.
It is just for us to know about that because that will that will
all fuse into how the intimacy is navigated from like a pre
production to post production level, right.
If there is a sense of kind of that bullying and harassment
language or dynamic then I need to be kind of trained in how to
acknowledge that because that might be affecting what happens
with the intimacy knowing what sexual harassment is and looks
like in like it's true like actual and the nuance of that I
need to know when working on intimacy obviously L GB, TQ plus
awareness obviously for just you know being able to work
sensitively with those groups. Unconscious bias because it get
you know I'm working on like very sensitive space and I mean
everyone should do unconscious training but which is
particularly for that. And then adult mental health,
first age because we work on content which has like a risk to
it around emotional, psychological, well-being you're
in a space where you're more likely to expect to trigger
response or trauma response. And so whilst you know, you
should have again like full mental health support for those
people in in a crisis and not just in a crisis.
And so the preparation too in terms of that first aid
response, we're just kind of ready to deal with that because
it might be something that they might be triggering content.
Yeah. So that I think, I mean it's I
really it's great to do for anyone and it's not difficult to
do those trainings. But yeah, it's just an awareness
of that being a kind of slightly more fraught space.
Yeah. It sounds like it's more so
about the environment that you'll be working in and the
power dynamics that happens and all that kind of nuance like you
said that goes into this particular setting.
As well as what you're coordinating.
Yeah, exactly. This.
It's a, it's a beautiful, wonderful industry in lots of
ways. And it's also a slightly scary
industry in lots of ways. In terms of it.
There's a lot of money thrown around when there's a lot of
money around. There's a lot of urgency.
The, you know, time means money and people are rushing to get
stuff done. And there's some, you know, big
powerful people in the space and not in space and behind
projects. And like with all that in the
mix, it's like it is just something you have to not take
for granted as something which is just going to be fine, right.
There's there's a lot in play for people.
I think we forget particularly those people who have been in
the industry forever and it's maybe the only industry they've
been in that they, you know, just take that little step back
and going like look at what we're doing and look at what's
actually happening between these individuals in this space and
what's at stake for people financially in terms of their
career. And like there's just so much on
the line. So like, you know, you can't
just think you're going to wing it and get by that you have to
be tuned into what that really looks like.
And I think some people don't like to look at that because it
sort of exposes what a tricky space it really is.
It's nicer to just go. But we're all sort of pals and
like there can be a really nice family feel on set and on a
production sometimes then sort of.
And you're all there together all day, every day, and you sort
of have to be pals or not. But yeah, it's a it's a strange
one, you know. There's loads of joys to it, but
there's real things to be wary of as well.
So when I was looking you up for these questions, I noticed that
you are also a theater director and started Airlock Theater
Company which has a play titled Lesbian Space Drama.
Please tell us more lesbian space crime.
Not just any old drama, a specific crime.
Lesbian space crime, Yes. So yeah, my background's in
theater. Like as a kid I was doing
theater at university. I didn't study theater, but I
did theater more than I did my degree.
And then got into directing and then went out into the world and
was assisting directors. And I was assisting directors
and creating theater and new plays.
And yeah, I still do that. Yeah, so like say that in that
creation of new plays and working in theater, I set up
airlock just really as a sense of like I'm making theater.
So I have to do that with the company in some capacity.
And in early years, it was a bit more like ad hoc and sort of
figuring it out a bit. And then sort of more recently
with my colleagues Rose Super and Catcher Hamilton sort of
established the company bit more properly.
And now with Eleanor Colville, we created Lesbian Space Crime
last year, which was sort of like a few years in the making
because of pandemic slowing things down, which we performed
at the Soho Theatre in London off West End.
And you hear, which is just sort of like a big queer musical
romp, a whole thing with airlock and theater creating is is about
sort of more like interesting takes or like unseen takes on
queerness. That was really about kind of
pressures of representation of like pressures of feeling like
you're an ambassador for a community when you might not
want to be, when you're in sort of public eye position.
As well as being sort of like slightly older queer person in a
sort of complicated marriage with a kid.
And being a queer person in space.
And how the sun is queer as well, so as in the sun and the
sky, not the sun. I mean, we can all relate to
being queer in space, right? Yeah.
I mean space is just so queer. The thing about space, which is
so queer, right? Cuz it's just like, what's it
doing up there? It's sort of everything and
nothing like classic. I mean, have you seen the Colors
in space? No, the literally colors.
No, it's got every color up there, exactly, like 100%, like
maybe, like black holes are more homophobic.
I was like, what's this queer film called The Colors in Space?
I was like, what's that? What?
Who's. But apart from that, like, it's
all pretty. It's pretty clear up there.
We don't talk about black holes all the time.
Yeah, so we did that, and now we're working on the next one,
which is pansexual pregnant piracy, which based on a true
story of Anne Bonnie, who's a queer.
Yes, Pirate. Yeah, Who was assigned female at
birth and dressed as a man on the seven seas to be able to be
a pirate. And then got pregnant and then
started to, like, get it on with this other pirate who turned out
to be another woman pretending to be a man, and who also got
pregnant, Mary Reed. And so we sort of used that as,
like finding your queerness and queer spaces and sort of like
pregnancy and queerness. Yeah, it's just so fun and so
silly. And that is, that's real
creative, joyful times, but yeah.
Your shows sound very interesting.
I know. I wanna see them all.
Yeah, we'll do the tour to America at some point, I'm sure.
Please, I can't wait. Well, Robbie, it's been so great
getting to know you better. Thank you so much for taking for
talking to us today. Before we sign off, do you have
any final words for the listeners at home and things?
I feel like I've spoken loads. Not enough.
We should have had enough of me I guess if you're British
intimacy coordinator I you know I'm I'm on the beck to union
committee and we're doing lots of work with the beck to
committee to like have further intimacy coordination and
intimacy practice in the industry.
So like keep a lookout for that if you're in the industry and
kind of want to know more of how you meant to work with intimacy
coordinators. Like we have shooting talents
there and also to say that there's the Sagatra strikes
happening over in the US at the I mean I'm British so I'm not
covered by that. I think even the intimacy
coordinator in the US aren't technically covered by it but
obviously they're striking in solidarity and and in that there
is negotiation around intimacy coordination and and I think
that is something that that people are sort of seeming to
actually agree on amongst lots of things they're not agreeing
on. So I'd like to think that with
the with the strikes, they'll be a sort of a further support or
or at least a kind of more concrete support for intimacy
coordination cut in the policy. So just, yeah, my my support and
solidarity to all all the people really on the front lines of
haggling through all of that and how frustrating that must be.
And everyone's striking. Amazing.
So to everyone at home listening, make sure to follow
Robbie on social media because he's awesome.
And check out Airlock Theater Company, because they're always
gonna have amazing shows, apparently.
Really, You really need to come to America anyway.
Until next time, hydrate for lesbian, Jesus and gay enough
all over the place. Bye.
Thank you. And with that, we've been big
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