Hello and welcome to Big Gay energy.
I'm Bree. I'm Fiora and I'm Caitlin come
along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer
media representation matters. And we're here to talk about it.
Welcome back to big gate energy. Today, I am joined by an amazing
author and a lie Jeannie gainsbourg.
Jeannie is an award-winning educational trainer and
consultant in the field of lgbtq+, inclusion and infective
allyship. It was a lot of words.
She is also the author of The Savvy.
Ally a vital resource for teachers, mental health,
professionals Health Care Providers College, professors,
Faith leaders family members and friends who want to Support and
advocate for the lgbtq+, people in their lives and help make the
world a safer. More inclusive place.
Thanks for joining me today is Jeannie, thank you for inviting
me. I'm so excited to be here.
So excited to meet you and your mom.
Yes, actually. That's the my next point today.
What about me? Relax, we're getting to you.
There's a reason you're here. I love you today.
My mom. You'll be helping me with this
interview. She started reading this book
and it has helped her become a better Ally for the community.
Thanks for joining me. Mama, thank you for having me
Kaitlyn And now you wanted to say.
So I do Jeannie, you are my idol, I gotta say and I don't
want the tears to come through because I'll tell you reading
your book. I am guilty of everything.
And you were born in 61, I believe 63, I'm sorry if you
don't like that on there, see? I don't know.
It's fine. I just turned 16 when you're
before me or after. So we're in the same boat, same
generation, how we grew up. So I'm going to I'm taking my
own hair done. So anyway, you have given shed
light and I wish I could get that book out to everybody.
I know. But as we go through the
interview I might have some things to say.
That's okay, that's why you're here.
Thank you so much for your kind words about my book.
I was thrilled when I heard that Kaitlin's mother was going to be
joining us for the interview because I I was realizing that
Caitlin and you know, her her co-workers coat colleagues on
the podcast and probably a lot of folks that are listening are
not necessarily my target audience for my book, but you
are Tracy may I call you Tracy? Absolutely.
Yeah. So you are you're the person.
I pretty much had in mind when I wrote this book which was
basically also me when I got started which is you know folks
of a certain generation who didn't like we never learn this
stuff like I owe you We got none of this stuff as far as our
education growing up and I just run into so many people like you
who I obviously can tell are just big-hearted people who want
to do the right thing and are just really you know scared that
they're going to mess up or they are messing up and they feel
terrible and yeah this is really the guide book that I wanted and
needed when I got started. So it's so wonderful to hear you
reflect that back to me because that was really my goal was to
Folks like you along with allyship and I just want to say,
you said, you made like a million mistakes.
I mean, that's how I know about these mistakes because I also
made all those mistakes and I think I had, I had tissues with
me through the book because I think back on people in my past
that I want to say, I am so sorry.
You know? I didn't realize.
Yeah, it's no exaggeration date on apologies.
I think I'm not sure if I added that in my book but I go Go back
to conversations all the time when I realize I messed up, you
know, sometimes years later I'm like, hey, remember when I said
this, this is what I actually met or I learned that this was a
terrible thing to say, or whatever.
I love those conversations. Yes.
Well, I really appreciate you writing it and I talked to many
people and not telling you it's frustrating.
And I wakening, it's so difficult because Allies, we
need so many more, and we don't have a whole lot.
We have people to say. Yeah, yeah.
I accept it. No, they don't.
Because they don't understand the community.
They don't understand everything that's involved.
You have to understand everything that's involved.
So you can understand everybody in this world.
Yeah. And that's the problem, because
everybody should not be should not have a community.
We should all be one. And that's what I've always
been. Like, growing up, I'm going to
cry. And I agree with you but I also
think allies again getting back to why I wrote this book.
I think allies especially in the last I'd say decade are in a
difficult situation because there's so much conflicting
information out there about what to do and what not to do.
Like I think about being an ally, you know, for racial
Justice and I'm seeing things that are complete, you know, you
should do this and then I'll read a week later, you shouldn't
do this, you should do this and, you know, which is why again. -
so racial Justice. I'm learning myself constantly.
I'm doing a lot of reading. My expertise however, is lgbtq+
inclusion. And that's where I was like.
Let me just give people the tools, like I think people a lot
of people, as I said, big-hearted, people are
desperate to be allies and they just don't know what to do.
And they're so scared that they're going to mess up and say
something that's you know, accidentally offend someone and
so I just, you know, I think we need more resources like this.
Honestly, I wish someone would write The Savvy, a lie.
Why around racial Justice like I would love that book.
Well, I love back to Unity is wonderful.
I just want to add that, I absolutely love reading this
book as well, so obviously you're talking target, audience
are people like my mom, but The message of advocating for
others. Really resonated with me.
How can members of the queer Community?
Like myself become advocates for others?
Yeah, that I love I get. I'm so complimented when someone
like you says that they really enjoyed my book.
I mean again because I'm talking about your community of people
so you know it's just it it's just such a compliment.
But yeah and one of the things I talk about in my book which is
that I Define a lie broadly. So you know, within the lgbtq
plus context. We tend to think of the Ally as
the straight cisgender person like myself, which in many cases
is True. But, you know, I have people who
have read my book, who are like cisgender lesbians and they're
like, oh my God, like I learned, I thought I knew all this.
I learned so much, you know, because they're experts on
cisgender lesbians but they don't know anything about.
You know, pansexual folks or transgender, folks, or
non-binary folks. And so, we all have a role that
we can play as allies to the lgbtq+ communities, even if
we're part of that community. So, it was that with that, dog
years, I just heard, yes. That was, well, let's see this
Pooch. Oh, oh, oh, hello, honey.
The other one is here, move that.
What did you say? Lauren now, this is Bristol and
then this one's Brooklyn. Oh my God, that was such a
distinctive noise. I was like that was doggie or so
it's not hard. I love that they're included in
this interview. But yeah.
So I just think, you know, even again even if you're part of the
trans Community, maybe you're a white transgender, man.
Like you can be an ally to trans women of color who are Are, you
know, marginalized and victimized, and much different
ways. So, again, it's just a huge
compliment. When I hear someone who's part
of the lgbtq plus communities telling me that either, they
learned a lot or they just really appreciated my
perspective. It, that means a ton to me.
Thank you. I'll be honest in the beginning.
I was like, oh, so someone not in a community writing this
book, but then, as I was reading, I was like, oh, okay, I
understand why. Because you have the experiences
and your target audience are isn't people in the community?
Right. But, and you also have all the
experience to back it up. You've done all this work and
yeah, yeah, there are actually two editions of this book, what
motivated, you to what motivated you to create a second edition.
So yes. So the first edition came out on
March, 12th 2020. If you can picture that my gosh.
Yeah, it was great time to launch your first book.
Don't do this. Folks to these listening at
home. Don't don't want your first book
at the basically, it was like day one of the national pandemic
shut down. So that really sucked basically
the book, you know, again it was targeted, you know for teachers
and professors. I'm like these folks had a
little some other stuff on their mind in mid-march.
You know. Everyone was trying to figure
out how to zoom at that point. So the book had a slow start
which was frustrating, it eventually picked up steam,
people who found it, Loved it. So it unfortunately, it didn't
get out there as well as in like, but folks that have found
it, love it, it's killing it on reviews on Amazon, which makes
me so happy. And then, my publisher, I went
through rowman & Littlefield and they were excited enough about
the book that they wanted a second edition.
And I also was thinking along those lines because I'm like so
much has changed. I mean, you know, as you know,
within the last three years so much has changed about language
about you know, politics although I don't go.
Deep too deep into politics. Because honestly, my book is
it's about how to be an ally not, why to be an ally.
I make that very clear. I think there's a lot of great
books out there about like, why be involved.
The people who pick up my book. I want them to be folks who are
like, we, you know, I'm on board with lgbtq plus inclusion.
I just want the tools to be a good Ally.
So I focused, you know, coming from from that area basically,
but there was a lot more to write about.
I realized just, for example, I wrote Lot about pronouns and the
use of pronouns Gathering and and sharing throughout the first
edition. But as I did, so I do workshops
as well as I was running workshops over the last three
years. I realized, we are not giving
people really good tools for understanding pronouns.
We talk all the time about like we should gather pronouns, but I
realized I've never once in my life, said to someone, what are
your pronouns? I actually think it's pretty
interesting. Rusev because there are reasons
why someone might not want to share their pronouns.
So I think there are better ways to gather pronouns without
making it awkward and without putting people on the spot and
I'm like, where are these tips? I'm not finding them anywhere.
So that was a thing for the third for the second edition.
I decided I need a whole chapter on pronouns like why we?
Why we should share them even if they're obvious how to gather
them. Respectfully, how to allow
people the opportunity, not to share if they don't want to how
to use singular. They and Some of the Neo Pro
now, you know, like all that stuff.
So, that was just a. That's a small example of
something that I felt. I really could add to the second
edition. A whole chapter on pronouns.
Also, through my workshops I was doing, I was getting a ton of
questions from the community that a lot of great questions
that I was like this is such a good question.
You know, I should answer this in my book so I added a new
chapter that's specifically questions from the community.
So great questions that are coming from teachers from, you
know, Workplace from family members and so I have that's
another chapter. So there was just there was a
lot of new content that needed to be added and a kind of hope
to continue to update it every few years.
And you know, language is constantly change and I feel
like I am I like to do the work for people for the folks who
were like, how do you keep up? I can't keep up on all this
language. I'd like to be able to do that
with this book. Just periodically update it.
That's a great point because a lot of I feel like a lot of
people think that once they learn something they're fine,
they don't need to continue educating themselves but it is
changing. There are that he's that's in
her book and the fuck. And actually with that said I
mean I think that I just want to talk a little bit about like all
the words that are changing. So I recently It Workshop in a
local school district and up on the, there was a poster that was
up on the wall from the GSA. For those who aren't familiar,
with the word, GSA, it used to stand for gay straight Alliance
it sometimes. Still does I think now more than
off more often than not, it's for gender and sexuality
Alliance, but it's a school club for lgbtq plus students and
allies. And they had a poster up with
like a whole bunch of identity terms.
And I'm like, I, there's like three on here that I don't know.
I do this work. Full time and like I don't know
these words and it just reinforced again that we don't
need to know every single identity word that's out there
in order to be allies. You know, I think sometimes
people get held back because they're like, I just don't know
enough. I need to know more terms before
I get out there and, you know, become active, and I'm like,
that's ridiculous. Like, you know, we learn as we
go, we meet someone who says they're, you know, whatever,
whatever it is a gender. And we're like, oh, you know,
could you mind sharing what that means for you?
I'm not familiar with that term. That's how we learn.
We shouldn't be held back by the fact that we don't know, every
single identity word that's out there.
One of the things I offer in my book is respectful communication
tips that will work regardless, you know, whether you know,
someone's Identity or not. And of course, most of the time
when we're having conversations, we don't know someone's identity
but their tips that will help you navigate respectful
conversations without ever needing to know how someone
identifies. So, I just think that's
important to keep in mind to like even I don't know, all the
words are there. Changing so rapidly and I just
hope people don't get held back by that.
That is, what are you laughing at me?
Laughing it the fact that my mom paid off
that. The three of us do this podcast
to help, advocate for bed, representation in the media.
And there are definitely things that we didn't know in this
book. So I feel like unless you're
fully committed to knowing everything in continuing
education, you're not going to know everything.
Like even if you're in it, like you said, you're not going to
know. Everything is just it helps you
to have conversations with people and that's why we try to
bring in more people who aren't like us because we all have the
same. We're all cisgender.
Lesbian so we only Only have one point of view in the community.
So it's important to continue the conversation with people.
Well, you both make a good point because you're never going to
know everything. You have to get out there and
you've got to talk. And if you're a people person,
you can't be afraid to talk to people because that's how you
learn that anything in life. And that's how I work.
I think we're at, you know, you cannot like myself a little, you
can read exactly. You can Google, you can read
blogs, you can get on YouTube and watch postings from people.
You know, who are again different identities or you're
trying to learn about, if you really have it in your heart, to
want to learn, you'll find a way.
Were there any topics pertaining to allyship that you consider
too obvious to include in the book?
Too obvious. Like you it was like such an
ingrained in you that you didn't think that maybe someone
wouldn't know that. And that.
Yeah, about that one for a minute, I do consider my book
fairly basic meaning, you know, I think I've got different
levels running through it, so I can't think of anything offhand.
I feel like I went pretty pretty basic pretty starter, but with
that said, I feel like there's enough content in there for
folks who have been active allies for for a while.
One of The things that I did, I do to sort of a double layer
through my book. I'm not sure if you picked up on
that but there's like the the information and then there's the
how do we educate about this information?
So if you've already, if you already understand this
information, here are some more tips on when we're talking with
others. You know how to how to give give
them information about this topic that will land on ears in
a positive way rather than make people defensive.
So but yeah. Hmm.
I think it was another Come in, and I'll think about that one.
We're talking. I can't think it was more like,
when you were first writing the book.
Anything that yourself, you thought was too obvious and you
forgot to conclude and then you're like, oh wait, no.
This needs to be in there. Then you like went back and I
think the only thing that comes to mind is, is probably the
pronoun thing. I feel like I maybe missed that
opportunity to me. I mean, yeah, okay.
I think it's, I mean, I know we talked about pronouns are ready,
but I'm sorry, pronouns. It just drives me nuts, the
whole pronoun thing, Push back against pronouns.
I'm like, I'm always, I actually giggle a little bit inside when
people are like, can you talk about the importance of
pronouns? I'm like, are you kidding me?
Like just try going an hour without using a pronoun?
I mean, you know, people are people who say, like I don't use
pronouns. I don't believe in pronouns.
I'm like, what are you talking about?
Like, F everybody uses pronouns. So, some of that is so basic
that I had to, I think we'll over the last three years.
I was like, Wow, people really are not Standing what this is
about and that was, maybe I thought that was, that was two
basic to explain that. Hey folks, we all use pronouns
and pronouns are not a transgender issue, you know?
Like like I always all think about two people who think
somehow pronouns are at Radio, therefore, those transgender
people. I'm like pronouns are for all of
us. All of us are have the ability
of the possibility of being misgendered.
So, you know, we tend to think, oh, it's just as transgender
folks who You get misgendered or have the wrong pronoun used for
them and I'm like there's plenty of transgender people who move
through the world and always have the correct pronoun used
for them. And there's also a lot of folks
who are cisgender who have the wrong pronoun, use for them.
I give the example in my book of the soccer, soccer star, Abby,
Wambach, who I heard in a podcast, talking about how she
she's a cisgender lesbian, she moved to the world and people
constantly refer to her as him or say, oh, you know, excuse me.
Sir I think You're in the wrong bathroom just because she's tall
and she's got short hair and she's got broad shoulders.
So she's someone who's not transgender and she's very much
impacted by having the wrong pronoun used for her.
So so yes, it does impact our transgender and non-binary
Friends probably more than most but you know, it's not a
transgender issue. It's just a human issue.
So that was something that I think maybe I thought was like.
So so basic, I didn't really understand the pushback against
You know, referring to people correctly, I guess I still don't
but I but I added that in a little more detail in my book.
There's something you wanted to say no, I misunderstood the
question. I thought it was supposed to
like that's in green, never mind.
Okay, so I feel like a lot of people Define themselves as an
ally but are fairly passive in their allyship.
Do you have to be out there actively advocating for the
community to be an ally? This is such a great question.
I think I'm a little different than most here in answering
this. Honestly, I the perspective that
I am coming from is you're never going to hear me getting in an
argument about whether someone's an ally or not.
I think that being an ally is an ongoing process and for someone
sticking a pin on their backpack that says I'm an ally, can be a
bold move, like a courageous move for them, depending on
their background and who they are and who's likely to see
that. So I never judge people and say
like, oh, that's it you're just going to stick a, you know, a
pin. A on your backpack and consider
yourself an ally that honestly, that could be huge for someone.
It could also be a starting point.
Like I'm going to dip my toe in this like I'm going to put this
pin on my backpack and look conversations I get in and you
know see if I'm if you know it's okay or people you know I mean
whatever I just think it's an ongoing process when I think of
myself 20 years ago when I first got started I was so hesitant I
was so worried that I wouldn't be welcomed or you know that
there would be a lot of backlash against The there's a lot going
on for people and so I would never say you're not an ally
because you're not doing enough ever.
I think we do what we can. We learn as we go, I think if we
get encouragement and people aren't judgy, we do more.
You know, I mean I had I got a lot of hand-holding when I
started and I honestly, I needed it.
It's embarrassing to say now, but I had no connection to the
lgbtq+ community. So I wasn't sure I'd be welcome.
And I just really need a lot of people saying, like we're so
glad you're here. Your voice is really important.
That helped me that help move me along to now where, you know,
this is what I do full time for work, but I just think a lot of
folks when they're starting out there kind of trying things.
And again, something that feels really not super risky.
For some of us is can be a really bold mood for other.
So, you know, obviously I think that being an ally should
involve action but I Think we should really respect people
where they are and you know, help people understand what
there is to do and what what skills, they can bring to the
table and help offer tips on how they can get more involved if
they're interested. I love that you were like
embraced with open arms when coming into the community has
that been like your overall acceptance or were there?
People who did not like that you were either writing this book or
Trying to figure out the right wording for this but just like
not welcoming enough. Yeah, so let me start with a
story about being welcomed because it was, it's so
beautiful. I didn't include it in my book.
I actually forgot about it for a while, and someone recently was
talking with me about it, but when I first got started.
So I literally looked up the word gay in the phone book in
2003 and called our local agency, which was at the time
called the gay Alliance. I'm in Rochester, New York and I
asked if I could I could volunteer and they immediately
put me into a training for speakers, which was ironic
because I was a terrible public speaker at the time and I knew
nothing about the lgbtq+ community.
So I'm like this is a terrible job for me but it was a weekend
Long training and I walked in there knowing no one and not
even sure I would be welcomed because you know, I didn't even
know the word like a lie at the time like 20 years ago.
Al I was not being used in the social justice context, the way
it is. Now at least I wasn't aware of
it so I'm like, I'm not sure I remember.
My husband, I may be home in an hour, like I'm not sure they're
going to allow me it, like that's where I was at.
So I was so scared and I walk into the room and I'm like
everybody knew each other except for me.
So I'm already like, oh my gosh, like this is awful.
And then the our very first Icebreaker activity was we had
to pull a scenario out of a hat and go to the front of the room
and talk about that scenario. And so, the one that I pulled
out was coming out at work, like, describe coming out at
work or an experience coming out at work and I'm like, I knew it.
I knew it there, all, they all are lgbtq plus folks, you know,
no one here is an ally. I was, oh my gosh.
And so, when it was my turn, I got up in front of this group
and I'm like, shake it, like, knees knocking.
I'm so scared. And I just say, you know, I'm
supposed to talk about what it's like to come out at work, but I
can't because I'm not part of the lgbtq+ community, but I can
talk about like, how nervous I was coming today and what it's
like coming into a group like this, without knowing anyone
isn't a lie and, you know, I've got a lot to offer.
For, I hope you don't kick me out and I'm just like, we're
like verbal diarrhea, but it was like, it was just 100% like
honest, I just made myself so vulnerable.
I was like, wow, I'm so dry didn't know what to wear and
then it's like and then when I'm done I start I walked back to my
seat and as I'm walking back, a woman reaches out and touches my
hand holds my hand and she looks me in the eye and she says, you
truly belong here and I like just lost it.
I started crying and that was it.
It like, I just all weekend. People were like, we're so glad
you're here. Your voice is so important and
so that, that literally just launched me into this career as
an ally and definitely as I started people knew they just
like they knew I was my heart was in the right place and I
made mistakes and they were so forgiving and it was just
fantastic to answer the second part of your question.
I've had pushed back but honestly I was afraid with this
book that I'd have a lot more pushback.
I'm so pleased at how little pushback I've had.
I really expected more as a straight cisgender white woman.
I thought there'd be a lot of sort of hatred against me and my
my work and like who is she if she's not part of the community?
I think I only had one review on Goodreads where someone was like
how dare she takes it upon herself to which I think is
hilarious, like how dare she you know, support my community of
people 1.2 actually complaining. About, it's kind of weird, but I
think, I mean, I think, hopefully, most people
understand that like Allied, a like conversations are so
critical. You know, white folks should be
talking with other white folks that racial Justice we should
not be relying upon. The marginalized community
members, took always be doing the educating.
And, you know, of course as a lesbian I believe you used the
word lesbian for yourself as a lesbian, you know, let's not
rely on the lesbians to constantly be, you know, tell
educators. Other people on their identity.
Like this is a role that a life should play.
And I think more and more people are hopefully understanding
that. So, a book from an ally to other
allies, which is what this is, I think is so critical.
And again, I wish I wish I would see it.
I'll actually, I did see a great one.
Allied a lie about race, it was by a woman.
Oh, the book was waking up white and that was a book about a
white woman, like just waking up to racial Injustice.
Yes, and it was, you know, targeted for target audience was
other way women and other white people, and that one really
resonated with me. So, yes, I've had pushed back
but it's been, it's been really very limited which is, which has
been wonderful. I think if you actually read the
book like it's very well written so I feel like that One.
Reviewer definitely did not even pick it up.
Yeah, thank you. I have a lot that I'm not go
ahead. No, because it's just, it's all
go ahead. This is your open.
Open floor. Now I lost my train of thought,
you know, that we can cut anything out, we don't want to
share so let's do it. No.
Do you have questions? Tracy or any comments or
anything that really resonated with you?
I just have a group of people. I mean I'm just I have a group
of people that are in the community and I love the
community, I do wear a pin and it's not just to say hey this is
my job and that's it. I'm the second person that's
wearing the pin especially in June because it's pride month
and I'm proud of my daughter and I'm proud of the community.
I have friends that, you know, they've already fought for their
identity. So So they have stopped
fighting. Let the others fight for their
identity and rights. Yeah.
In the same Community, which really Makes me wonder.
You know, it and then you try to talk about it, what, you know,
and the the ears are down. Don't want to hear it.
Well, where are you, where are you coming from?
By the way, what area or near Philly, we're near Philly, for
the ovaries paid that, accepts you go to Florida on what that
was going to be my last trip because, you know, I, you say
wood sub, get my whole my did I say something wrong?
No, no it's not wrong. It's just my school district is
Learning profiles in the classroom right now and books
and see. That's what I don't understand.
That's part of history, as part of culture, it's part of Pete,
the world and that's what I just get so upset about, you know,
and I was, I don't know, I was guilty.
And when growing up but growing up, I had a grandmother that was
born in 1904 and I was very young.
My mother had a couple of friends that were gay male and I
said something to my grandmother, not bad because it
wasn't anything. I didn't think anything or twice
about it, but to hear my grandmother's say, you know, you
just have to feel sorry for them and in her words because the
world is so mean, but they're born like that.
And I always think about that woman was the most wonderful
woman. Yeah.
Way back. Yeah, that's major.
Yeah. So like you Caitlin what we're
seeing some I think we're seeing some trickle down from some of
the horrendous bills that are being passed in places like
Florida. What, you know, I'm in New York
state which is, you know, a relatively liberal State.
And I'm and I talked with Educators constantly, who are
there just scared to death or like I don't know what I can and
can't say we have some, we have a guidelines here in New York
state around transgender inclusion, in schools, that
specifically State certain things.
But a lot of the Educators don't know about it or they're not
sure that the administrators are going to have their back if they
you know, read about you know King and King like Two Princes,
you know the story book about the Two Princes felt like you
know it's just it's affecting everybody even though it's you
know, it's happening in Florida. This this stuff is affecting.
Everybody. It's absolutely horrifying.
I feel like we just step back 100 years in time with with
these bills. It's yeah, I don't know what
else to say. I have no magic words except for
vote, folks, vote, but I wanted the back I think your point is a
really good one Tracy about how, you know, once people are
accepted or have found their turn their identity terms, you
know, many of them step back and are kind of done, you know.
I am always amazed. I think I share a story in my
book about a young trans man who like when he first got involved
in lgbtq+. Inclusion was like what's with
all these new? Birds.
I don't understand why do we need so many identity words and
I'm thinking, wow! This is coming from a
transgender man, you know, but he had his sound his words like
he was a straight transgender man.
He had found his identity words and he was, he was sitting in a
good place as far as understanding his identity.
So, he heard all these new words and he was like, I don't like,
why do we need all these words, you know, and it's just so
interesting to have that reaction, words are so
important. And I think that, you know,
those of us who I mean, I I know, We throw the word around
privilege but it privileged in that way like if you're
privileged enough to have found your identity word and it's like
this is my word, this makes sense just having enough of an
awareness that a lot of folks have not found their identity
were dead and that we should you know be supporting them as well
and and communities should support other communities.
So you know, the trans Community, transgender community
non-binary community like fully under attack in the United
States, you know, the so the rest of us like folks.
It's only a matter of time. Like I mean, Next.
Its again we were seeing push back against gay and lesbian
folks. In schools women are certainly
under attack in the u.s. like it's just it's all of us.
It's about all of us. So I think that, you know, we
need to really be the Allies to all sorts of different
communities and not sit back, and think were, we're in a good
place because we're not. It's frightening.
I do understand the friends that are gay.
That came up in our Arab, they fought their Away, excuse me,
they fought their way and to get their rights and they went to a
lot because it was all brand new they were just sharing their
story and I say sharing their world because I prefer to say
sharing their world instead of coming out of a closet.
Because I read that part too. And I applaud you for explaining
that because it's not a closet, you should be in.
It's your world, you know, it's I'm not explaining it right?
But there They trust you enough to share their world with you.
Yeah, yeah. That actually came from Jacob,
tobiah, who wrote the book sissy?
I love that. So, I think they use the pronoun
and they, I'm going to use the pronoun.
They, they talk about how they think, we need a new new
metaphor for coming out of the closet.
And they said they really liked the metaphor of a snail coming
out of it's shell, which just really I thought that's so, it's
so true, right? Because when a snail doesn't
come out of, it's shell, Shall we don't blame this snail we
don't say oh that snail is withholding or that snail is
being with you know dishonest the snail isn't coming out of
it's shell because we've scared it right?
It's about the environment so I'm like that makes so much more
sense to me. Like let's not blame the snail
for hiding in its shell we should be blaming the
environment where you don't really get that sense with the
closet with the closet. You're like, oh, why don't they
come out? What's their problem?
Why are they hiding who they are?
So I'm totally using the snail. Now, when I talk about, About
coming out, I think it just really helps, you know, helps us
not only understand what people are going through but also gives
us action pieces as allies to be like, well, what what can I do
about this environment to help this person feel like they can,
you know, come out of their shell, help them, make them feel
safe. So, thank you.
I just want to give credit where credit is due.
That came from author, Jacob to buy it, which was I love that
metaphor. Yeah, I like it, so it's very
good. Excuse me for a minute.
We're still. Could you stop didn't share that
dog. She does not want to stay still
right now. Usually they're asleep during
whenever I film but no grandmas in the room so she's very hyper.
In the book, you talk about how the a does not stand for a lie.
I have also heard people take offense, when others say that
you can stand for questioning. What is your take on the Queue
and lgbtq+? Hmm, so I have I always when I
when I teach this in my workshops I say the Q can stand
for queer or questioning and sometimes you'll see two queues.
I honestly I think if there's only one Q as an lgbtqia or
plus, I think it tends to stand for queer but I really like the
fact that questioning is included in the initialism and
the reason is, you know, one reason I can think of is that
there's a lot of folks who are still on a journey of figuring
And who they are. And so if you've got for
example, like here in Rochester, we used to have a very active
group pre-pandemic that was specifically for transgender
men. Like, I'm just a meet up at, you
know, a local coffee shop for transgender men and they always
wrote that. It's for transgender men and
questioning folks because, you know, someone could be trying to
figure out is this is this right for me?
Am I a transgender man? Well, that person now knows that
they're welcome to join that group when you include
questioning. And honestly, I I mean I think
questioning is just such a beautiful word because I think
you know it just means we're all we're all trying to figure out
who we are and some of us think we have it locked in and who
knows you know, ten years from now.
We may we may find that you know actually this this word fits
better for me or oh I didn't realize I actually do have this
attraction you know. It just the idea of us being
stagnant figuring out who we are at age 13 and then we got that
locked in, you know, we're done. You know, that's that's made
that's true for some of us. Maybe, but I think for many of
us, our understanding of ourselves as fluid and are our
attractions are fluid. And so, I think questioning is a
beautiful thing to add to the initialism.
I actually have to say, I have not heard push back against
questioning, so I'd love to hear a little bit more about that or
where people are coming from by disliking that it's definitely.
I've only seen comments online. I haven't had a direct
conversation with somebody. So obviously people say all
kinds of things online. But But somebody has to be
feeling like this. I believe I really don't
understand the questioning like why they're against that being
in. The initialism is really I don't
I don't fully know why that that was a thing, but I just know
that I've seen it, a few places. So I wanted to just bring it up
to see if you had experienced it at all.
Yeah, I have it but I do fully understand why people would not
want the a for Ally included in the initialism.
Like I Knit, like, back when I started this work in 2003, at
least here in Rochester, when you saw the a it stood for a
lie, it did not stand for asexual in 2003.
Folks. Now you can be sure it stands
for asexual, when you see the a in 2023.
So there was a shift there. So some people are confused by
that, I think, because initially, again, I can only
speak about state New York, but it was in stood for a lie back
in 2003. But, you know, it makes no sense
for a lie to be part of the initial is my definition.
And we are not part of the community, right?
That's the definition of who we are.
So why would we be included in this initialism about the
community but part of the movement folks were not part of
the community. So Ally really has I think no
place in the initialism. So when you see the a you can be
sure in this day and age that it stands for asexual, and if
you're ever unsure, whether you're welcome at an event.
When you don't see a lie, specifically written down.
I just encourage people to call Call the event organizer or
email and find out if allies are welcome.
Just to make sure we're being respectful of spaces that are
meant to be lgbtq+. Only spaces, that's great.
I think the overarching conversation was the a that was
like a big issue and then someone like brought up and
don't tell me that Q is for questioning either.
I'm just like put that they are part of the community because
they are questioning themselves like they don't.
It's hard to communicate but questioning it doesn't seem like
it shouldn't be because that is part of most people's Journey at
one point they are questioning right.
Yeah. It's for folks who haven't
really quite figured it all out yet which is a huge population
of people and I think we should be welcoming them right?
I mean absolutely I think you included in your book and
forgive Me if I'm wrong but if you really get down to it you
could have LGV GGG like you could if you put every single
thing down you're going to have triple letters all the way down
the line. Yes.
I used to joke around that. We couldn't afford the ink to
write it all out in. All right.
Oh my gosh. Okay, the last time I saw it
written out here in Rochester, it was lgbtqia AAA to spp, you
know? And growing yeah which is great.
Like I mean honestly I think it's I think it's amazing.
I love that people are questioning.
I love that new identities are being created that you know,
help people figure out who they are.
But I think the initialism is problematic, I really wish we
had a word like queer that meant the entire Community but that
offended no one because you know, I know, I know Caitlin you
use clear on your podcast. Cast.
I hear it all the time. It's totally embraced by many
many people. Mostly younger folks, but, you
know, I'm of a generation where I'll tell you a story.
We so I told you that I was where I worked at an agency
called The Alliance here in Rochester.
Not the most inclusive name. And in my final, five years
there we changed the name to the more inclusive out Alliance.
But at the time that we were looking for new names, you know,
staff members were giving suggestions of what a good name
might be and some of the words had clear in it, you know.
The Rochester queer Center. For example, was one option and
at the time we had a very active older lgbtq+ community group.
That came in to do you play Uecker and do all sorts of
events and we had several members of that group come to us
and say, if you put the word queer in the title of this
community center, we are never walking through the door again,
like that's how offended they were by that word.
So I just wish we had one word that was like, queer, that dead
offended. No one.
So I always laugh and people are like there's too many words.
I'm like, are you kidding? We need so many more.
Who knows how many more words like there's one that we need.
We also need like a, like a gender-neutral word for like,
sir and ma'am. Like, you know, because I don't
thinks ma'am is going to take. There's so many new words that
we need and again, they help people, you know, figure out who
they are. I share a story about a
transgender woman named Dee in my book.
I don't know if you remember that story but it was so
eye-opening for me. Here's this.
This woman who grows up in the Philippines and there's no word
that Operates gay men from transgender woman, women from
cross-dressing meant, like the any, anyone who they considered,
you know, basically assigned male at Birth that behaved in
any way feminine according to their society and culture, they
just use this word but claw and so is she was like, yeah, so so
poor D who ended up realizing she was a transgender woman.
She had no language for who she was so she was just hanging out
with the Gabe. The gay boys.
As in her school and thinking that she was a gay boy, but it
didn't quite fit, but it was close like it was closer than
straight. And she had no idea who she was,
because she had no language for it.
And when she learned English and she learned the word transgender
women woman, it was like this light bulb goes off in her head.
She's like she has figured out who she is, literally because
she learned a new word. So, you know, I just love that
story for people who are like why do we need all these words?
Because these words don't fit everybody like they think kind
of fit, you know, No, but they're not quite it and when
you find your identity word, it's so it's so empowering.
It's so beautiful to find your community of people.
So yeah. Well Jeannie, the word queer.
I grew up. You don't say that word.
I still cannot relate to that word today even though it's
accepted now. Yeah, and prefer it, it's just
very, very hard. There's words that you grew up
with that. You just don't say.
Yeah, I'm of your generation same here, and one of the tips
that I give in my book for folks, like us is that I never
used the word queer, unless I hear people use it as their
identity word, and then the respectful thing to do is to
mirror that term. Even though it, you know, it may
offend you to use it if someone shares the vote or.
Yeah, but, I mean so, but, you know, for some people, they're
like, I don't like this word, but if I hear someone saying,
oh, you know, my wife is a queer woman.
That's, that's her identity word, right?
So we should mirror that That so I think that's a nice way to
navigate a world where you don't necessarily know if someone
likes the word queer or not, is to Simply listen and mirror
terms that people are using. So, but Tracy, I'm with you or
the were the same age. I mean, it was used in such a
hurtful way, right? Aren't, you know, it's hard to
believe that that's become a term of empowerment for many,
but I know that it has. I learned a lot through the
chapter of mirroring that was perfect.
That was a very good. I really like that as well.
Thank you. As we talked about the world.
Isn't that safe for the community?
These days? What are some things people can
do to make the community feel safe and public places.
For example, the pride flag flags and Starbucks, make me
feel safe, and it's just like, some simple act, but even those
are being taken down in some stores now.
No, I know. It's incredible.
So, yeah. So some things that I think we
can do. I think the Visibility is huge.
I mean I really do. I think you know fly your your
rainbow flag your progress flag? You know.
Not not just June like all year round like let's get this out.
I think language is so important.
I mean, I literally with our language, we can create safer
spaces. You know, by not assuming who
someone is or who someone's loved ones are using language.
That is ungenerous until we hear how people refer to themselves.
I think is fantastic people. All are listening for that
stuff. I give an example in my in my
book about being on an airplane and getting in a conversation
with the woman next to me about where we were flying to and she
said oh I'm going to Denver, you know my daughter is getting
married and I said, oh I hope you're happy with her choice of
a partner and she paused and said I am.
And I'm so thankful that you use the word partner because she's
marrying a woman, and then we had this whole conversation and
I'm thinking, if I had said, you know, husband if I just assumed
she was marrying. A man that Conversation probably
would have been shut down. She's like this this person
isn't safe for me to share that my daughter's marrying a woman,
you know what I mean? And so because I with my
language, I told her I'm open to hearing that your daughter is
marrying, anyone and that I think just takes us so far in
helping just in those one-on-one conversations, helping people
feel feel safe, other things we can do on bigger scales is just
get involved. You know, it's a great way to
meet people. It's a great way to learn about
the communities. He's if you've got a, you know,
an lgbtq+ center near you ask, if you can volunteer, start your
own fundraiser. I actually did a bike ride
fundraiser for our a lot. The alliance that I worked at
and it was it was amazing. How many allies I had in my
midst, who, who I didn't know and they didn't know what there
was to do like in their ignorance.
They were, they just didn't know what there was to do and I just
got this enormous group of mostly allies Biking For This.
And see. And then going out into the
community and talking about why they're biking for this agency
and why it's important, and it just like blossomed into this
enormous it. With some people are calling it,
The Ally ride, which I didn't appreciate, because there were,
there were lgbtq+ folks involved, too, but it was mostly
allies who hadn't done anything and didn't really know what to
do. So getting involved, do a
fundraiser. If there's a pride in your area,
I think that's a, just a beautiful gift that we can give
back to the lgbtq+. Communities is to volunteer at
Pride to make sure that it's, you know, as as safe and
wonderful and experience for everyone as possible.
You know, those are just, those are just some things have
conversations. I actually think there's,
there's so much we can do so much with one-on-one
conversations with people, you know, I think in some ways, I
think it's the best way to help bring people on board with lgbtq
plus inclusion is just just be open about how you feel BB.
Listen to others. Respectfully share ideas.
But I have a book in my chapter called good talk which is 10 of
my favorite tips on having conversations with people who
think differently than you do in a way that will open their ears
to the conversation rather than, you know, put up a big wall and
shut them down. And I just think those tips are
so important for for talking with folks because we, I think
we get a sense of, you know, we do feel very divided as a
country, you know, either you're for or against and it's these
two distinct sides and I don't think that's the reality.
I think there's a lot of people in what we sometimes, call the
movable middle who were like, you know, they're not Not quite
sure or maybe they're okay with some things and not others, and
they're open to having conversations and and and
learning. And so I think those one-on-one
conversations are so critical. That's why I am where I am today
in my knowledge when Katie shared with me Her her.
Sorry, I want to say world, but it just sounds.
So when she, when she invited me into her world, I asked so many
questions and, you know, she's still figuring it out herself.
So I thought, you know, I'll give her a break after what
fifty thousand questions, I missed your friend started
venturing out to my friends and yet, well, that's a whole
nother. I know that's a whole nother
story cuz Just take something and I just boom roll with it,
but where was I going with that? You roll up and stuff.
And I have this snack, I talk to everybody.
So I might make mistakes and sometimes I'll climb up and say
I'm sorry, but I really know that a lot of its Common Sense.
How you speak to somebody and how you take the conversation.
But I have actually had people Understand where I'm coming
from. I guess, after they get to
talking to me, they know that I'm grounded and I want to know.
I've had so many decent conversations with people and I
would, my jaw would drop like, I didn't know that.
Oh, really? And this, and then they would
offer more information. So that's why I'm up to the
level where I am and then reading your book.
Just confirms so many things and adds to and confirmed how
ignorant I have been growing up and actually lately.
And some of Of the questions I have asked my gay friends or her
like Tracy, Tracy. Tracy is a good thing.
They understand you, but yeah, you just, it's part of learning,
I guess. I don't know if that was
important, but everything you have to say, is important.
Thank you, we're all learning, we're all Nick.
We're all gonna mess up. Oh, that was another whole
chapter on how to mess up properly and the third in the
second edition because we're all going to miss out.
We all have stuff. Yeah.
Eliza journey of messing up was talking to this girl.
She her pronouns. Are she and her?
And she And I said, you know, you need a college course to
learn all this. And she goes there is I was
blown away. I've said thank goodness because
you need one and I thought that was great there really is not
only a college course, but a whole segment on this and she's
I think she said she teaches it but still not enough and is no
but and excluded from other diversity stuff, I believe you
talked about as well. I don't know.
I NASCAR now not you know I mean I didn't ask I thought you said
it's not enough that what she was, teaching the courses out
there. No, I mean there's other guy so
much more care. Yeah.
No. I gave an example in my book of
being in getting my masters in social work and in the diversity
course lgbtq+ folks, were not touched like it wasn't it, not
discussed. It was like, so it's like these
folks are getting this community.
People is getting excluded even from the City conversations and
and that was 1992. And then I was like, oh well, it
was 92. But then I had met someone, I
think it was 2016 who had just graduated with her Master's in
social work. She said, same thing like so you
know, that's that's all right. As far as well that even in the
diversity conversations were being exclusive against lgbtq
plus books. Which is why I make the point
that I think those visible images that say, you know,
you're welcome here. Here are all families are
welcome here with the rainbow flag so critical because I think
when you just see that message of like everyone welcome here,
honestly lgbtq+ folks with good reason, maybe like, except for
me, like, I'm not sure that includes me so just be
historically, because of that situation.
So I think those those visible images of yes, lgbtq+, folks.
We mean, you to, you're welcome, here are really very important,
maybe they won't be in the long run, but they certainly are now
Okay. Go ahead.
I'm sorry. No I get a lot of negative
feedback from some people in the gay community because I feel
like I'm on a mission and I'm just so going home and getting
it at the word out there and helping but I get some I get
some feedback, not-so-nice feedback, you know.
I get some some people yell at me you know from the beginning
Unity from folks in the community.
Yes. What can I ask?
Ask what's upsetting than just the fact that there's so many?
Initials and so many pronouns that, you know, they they said,
it's getting out of hand and ridiculous and I look at and I
think, what do I say to about about that?
Because I'm not, that's a V2. Banter back and forth.
Yeah. So in that situation and I hear
that as well and again I think that's what I was talking about
earlier where like these folks have their identity words in
place and so they're they're set.
So they're like, oh why do we need?
What's up with non-binary? What's up with pansexual?
Why don't you know why? Why can't people just fit into
the the words that we have, you know, which is its kind of
because it's not. Yeah.
So actually in that situation, I will if folks are willing to
listen And truly you know, truly if you're talking with someone
who's just yelling at you and has no interest in listening I
got nothing for that. There's there's nothing you can
say to someone who's not willing to listen, but if you're
someone's truly willing to listen, I do share that story of
D and because it's published in my book, my friend Dee is,
you're welcome to use that story any of the stories in my book.
But I share that story because I think it's a really beautiful
example of what life is like, before you you found your word.
And that's, you know, that's, that's true with again, like
non-binary. Oh my gosh, like be Before that
word existed. There were so many folks who
were like, a my Trans. Am I look, I don't know what I
am and that word was just huge. I know people who today are like
my age and they're like, gosh, if I had known that word back
when I was, you know, 25 that that would have been my word
that some of them feel awkward about taking it on.
Now, for some reason as their older.
But those words are expanding people's understanding of who
they are. And so, I think that I talk
about this in my book, but I think that Sharing stories and
examples are really the key to helping people understand
Concepts. It's what they're going to
remember. And so that story of D is the
one that I will often bring up. When people say that to me,
like, there are too many words where it's getting out of hand,
so that's what I would recommend.
I want to go back to the pronouns real quick because it
is such a big deal for people. Can you talk a little bit more
about new pronouns? And they have like a little bit
of a section on it in your book? Just can you talk a little bit
more about that? And why someone may choose to
use newer pronouns that aren't she him?
Or they? Yeah, so I can probably answer
all that except for your last question, like, because I'm not
someone who uses a new a pronoun.
I'm not sure. I Can I don't think guess, at
why someone might use a new opponent?
I don't really actually know that and actually, I don't think
we, I mean, just this is not, this is for the audience.
Like, folks, we don't need to understand why someone uses a
pronoun in order to use it and be respectful, but, ya know.
So just a little bit about Neil, pronouns.
New, pronouns are pronouns, Neo the word Neo I keep hitting the
volume thing. I hope I'm not missing the word.
Neo means new. So it Neil is a new pronoun and
it's a Word, that has not yet accepted into the language,
where it's used. So you won't find an EO pronoun,
for example, in the dictionary. Which is why the singular they
is not considered a Neo pronoun because singular, they is now in
the dictionary as a singular pronoun.
So for those of you who are thinking it's not grammatically,
correct. It is it now is considered a
grammatically. Correct?
So that's so, so there's two types of gender neutral pronouns
or singular they which stands alone and then there are Neo
pronouns, which are newer pronouns that are you're not
going to find in the dictionary and some examples of those are
like Z & Co and /. And if you look this up, you'll
see a list of like, over 100 and and growing and sometimes people
will make up their own pronouns, or make find pronouns that fit
for them, that they've completely created.
And so that makes things difficult it does.
And that was the next thing I was going to say.
So I don't think it's a Savvy Ally action to like memorize.
A list of 100 new opponents. I think it's, you know, it
intimidates people, they get nervous the way that, I think
you should navigate me on pronouns for allies.
And again, this is just coming from an ally perspective is that
we should wait until we have a relationship with someone who
uses a Neo pronoun. So A co-worker, a friend, a
family member, keep in mind, that Neo pronoun uses much less
common than singular they. So, I know that the Trevor
Project recently did a survey with with youth around, pronoun,
use and singular. They was was by far the most
common gender-neutral pronoun. That was used, Sonia pronouns
are much less common, but if you if you meet someone who uses the
pronoun, Z, for example and it's a co-worker, someone you've got
a relationship with, that's the time to learn how to use that
pronoun. So keep it simple.
Just wait until you need to understand and learn a pronoun
and then there's a great website called I'm going to forget the
name of it. I'll look it up while we're
talking, there's a great website where you can plug in a pronoun
and practice. So, practice with pronouns, it's
called practice with pronouns and you can plug in your
pronouns e, for example, that you're practicing and it will
give you all these very funny questions where you fill in kind
of like madly old Mad Libs you know where you fill in the
pronoun. So you can get really good at
it. So that's just how I recommend
that. You navigate Neo pronouns.
It's just like wait Till you know, someone but the other
thing I want to say about like why someone might want you want
to use them again, I'm not going to, I don't really understand
what it feels like to be non-binary, but in a lot of
non-binary folks who feel that who the words for example, man
and woman, do not fit for them. Also find that the pronouns he
and she don't fit for them. So are looking for other
pronouns that just fit better so they might use singular they or
they might use A Neo pronoun. With that said, it's important
to know that there are non-binary folks who do use our
traditional pronouns of he/she. And there's also binary folks
who use gender neutral pronouns. So, we can't tell someone's
gender, for example, or how they identify by the pronoun that
they're using. And we don't need to, like, the
only thing we need to know is, is how to refer to somebody
respectfully? Yeah.
This one for the other dog. I was trying to keep a straight
face while I was finishing. Those last few seconds of
hearing is like bull. I'm editing that out because
attracts, luckily, I did not think that should be edited out.
I think that's hilarious, NeNe. I had it.
I had a lot of trouble with day in them.
I have because a lot of, you know, it's an English thing, but
clicked it really clicked. We've been using they and them
as singular forever and people didn't realize it.
Yeah. Oh I hope they come back for
their purse. They left their purse.
Here. There you go.
And that's a very good example. Yeah.
And and I give the example, this
came to me from a friend of mine who uses singular they.
So again, I like to give credit where credit is due but a friend
of mine said, just practice using singular.
They on your pet and I did for a long time I was calling our cat
Carlos using referring Carlos's. As they Carlos, did not seem to
mind what pronoun. I use.
As long as I continue to feed him on time, I got so good at
it. I got so good at using singer
they because I was using it constantly to refer to my cat.
So if you've got a pet and you're working on getting good
at singular, they probably your pet won't mind and it's hard to
get good at senior. They when you don't have an
opportunity to practice it over and over and over and and pets
are a great way to do that. And you can do that with other
Neo pronoun that you're trying to learn too.
That is, that is also true. Something else we talked about
was going back and apologizing for mistakes.
Hmm. This is another thing that I've
heard people like push back on. I've heard people say,
apologizing for things in the past just makes you feel better
and doesn't help the other person is there ever a time?
You shouldn't go back and say something that's a tough
question. So I would say So this is just
one person giving an opinion, folks, but I think that when it
comes to, oops, I used a wrong name or pronoun.
That's a situation that I would never go back and apologize
because it does draw a lot of attention to your mistake, which
draws a lot of attention to the person.
And in general, when you mess up someone's name or pronoun, the
best thing to do is just a very quick, like oh, thank you for
the reminder, or excuse me, but going back in that situation, I
would say is probably Not a great option.
I wouldn't do that. I would just make sure I got it
right the next time, but I think they were other things like when
I've realized I'd said something that like later on.
I'm like oh that you know that I think that's hurtful what I said
or I didn't realize you know and again it depends on the
relationship. So if it's someone like, I know
and love like a someone who's the relationship is important to
me. I'm going back, I'm going back
and I'm like I said something last week that I, you know, I've
been Thinking about and you know, I'm so sorry if I whatever
it is. I've never had a conversation
where that's going badly. In fact, I think it's actually
helped the relationship because that person is usually like.
Wow. You're still thinking of that,
like, they're really flattered that.
I'm still thinking about this thing that might have
potentially hurt them. So, at least again, I'm just
hearing one person's experience. I think the going back in
general, especially if you've got a fairly close relationship
with someone for me has been a good thing.
But I would I would not do it when it. if it's just a like a
misgendering situation because I think that does draw a lot of
extra attention to it, so I'd love to hear your opinion as
well on that I have definitely I was reading the book and there
was I don't have especially in high school.
I wasn't around the community that much, and I wasn't out yet.
I wasn't like obsessed accepting of myself.
And In my dance studio, one of the kids just came out as trans
and I went back and visited and I messed up there pronoun and I
was apologizing profusely and they kept telling me, no, it's
okay. And I realized that in
hindsight, it was a mistake to be like, no, it's not, it's not
okay because like I felt terrible about it, but It's
making them feel worse, because we're bringing so much attention
to their pronouns. Now, and I did, when they first,
Announced that they were trans. I, there were other there are
trans females so they have long hair and dance, and There was a
comment that I made. That was I said, what are you
trying to look like a girl? And it was such an ignorant
comment, but I apologize for that because I knew that that
was something that probably hurt them at the time. and I think at
that point I think that apologizing for that was okay,
because that might have been something in the back of their
mind, but I do agree with the pronouns just to like make sure
that you use the right one next time, but in your defense, we
have watched her transition into a female But it shouldn't really
speak at different. Yeah, I should not have made
that comment in the first place, you didn't know.
But and anyway, that comment was not good.
That's the ignorance of part of people not knowing So, you
talked to, a lot of people that aren't in the community when
you're talking to people who may not accept the lgbtq+ community,
how do you respond to someone who says that we have an agenda
and want to recruit children? Basically, it's the biggest
thing going on, that makes me that makes my skin crawl.
But just gets my Irish up makes my skin crawl.
Yeah. And actually It's interesting
because I know you focus on media and one of the things that
appalls me and I think we're in General Media is getting better
about lgbtq+ representation. But this stereotype, the
recruiter or you know the / the / miscue assess the, you know,
the a recruiter I can't believe how often I'm still seeing this
in movies. I was giving the example of this
is this is embarrassing to admit this to however, many people are
listening to. This was really fun, one of my
guilty pleasure. Is is I like I really love teen
movies. Like good, teen, movies, like
clueless, like love them, and I've liked the pitch, the Pitch,
Perfect. Oh, that's great hilarious,
right? Yeah.
Okay. Why do we have to have the one
lesbian character? Constantly groping the, you
know, the lights go out and she's groping the other singers.
I'm like, are you kidding me like in this day and age?
So it's amazing to me that we're still throwing in that.
Oh, the lesbian must be out, recruiting, she must be.
Being promiscuous and have an agenda.
I'm like this this stuff is so I mean I think media has really
needs to clean that shit up, he's on, but to do it.
Are you kidding me this? Oh my gosh.
So I'll also say that fortunately the vast majority of
folks that I talked to our folks who want to be allies who want
to know how to do the right. So so I I shifted when I when I
shifted work from being the education director at our local
nonprofit, here, I really moved into folks who want to be
allies. And that's again the target of
my book. So you'll notice I'm not trying
to convince anyone to be an ally in my book.
I do give some examples of like, how to respond to this or that
or the other thing. I didn't share that one because
I actually, I don't know that anyone's ever ever actually said
that to my face, like I know that that stereotype is out
there, but I don't think anyone has ever Question me on the gay
agenda. So now at the podcast, we have a
big gay agenda. That's the tell ya.
I know I was going to say, what I think what I would do is
probably start with humor and say, oh I, you know, the gay
agenda. Sure.
I think it's pretty similar to the straight agenda.
You know, like, you know, buy milk on your way home from work,
you know, feed your pet, like, whatever, you know, what's on
your agenda? I think I would probably start
in that way to do sort of Of the switch it technique of like, you
know, of course, what are you talking about?
I mean, all we can do is is share it again, if it's someone
who's willing to listen, I would have a conversation about how,
you know, I think this is a stereotype or I'd probably even
ask them questions. Like can you can you tell me a
little bit more about what you mean by that?
I'm not quite sure what you mean, by the gay agenda.
Like, like, have them talk a little bit more.
It's hard to latch onto something like that, unless you
hear more. So if you're with someone who's
literally interested in, having the conversation, tell me more
about the gay agenda. What have you heard about that?
What does that mean to you? Because I think that's going to
give you some some stuff that you can talk about if you're
like me and you don't think quickly on your feet.
I've got a good brain, I'm not dissing myself, but I'm not a
quick thinker. I am a ponderer and so I get
there eventually but it's not always in a timely fashion.
So one of the tips that I share in my book is just always feel,
you know, come back to that conversation.
Later. So if you're like you start this
conversation on the gay agenda, whatever?
This means for this person and you know that night in bed
you're like oh I totally should have said this or given this
example. Like I'll go right back
especially if it's like a co-worker.
Hey member were talking yesterday.
Here's I just had another thought.
Feel free to do that. If you're a person like me who
just doesn't like work well under pressure so that those are
just some, some thoughts on, okay?
I feel bad. I'm definitely, that's why.
I don't like them cause I like emails so I can actually think
about what I need to do. Actually I have to tell a funny
story. I almost added this photo to my
book and then I was like hmm. Like I really don't want to
offend anyone. I could see where maybe this
would offend someone so I didn't but I'll share here we I was
once doing a workshop with a transgender man.
He was a co-worker of mine and it was on Halloween and it was a
like a full day workshop and we were I was like we are totally
going in costume because like that I just I'm all about that
and soon. So I went as the transgender
umbrella and I bought myself a rainbow beanie and I hung off of
it all the different identities that are under the transgender
umbrella. So just like, as I moved my
head, it was like non-binary trans women trans man, like, you
know, crossdresser and I was a transgender umbrella.
And he went as the gay agenda and he's a sign that said, you
know, the gay agenda and it was literally like buy milk feed the
dog, you know, fight for equality or something was
really, really cute. So just getting at your gauges.
That, but I did not share that in the book.
As I don't know, the last minute.
I was like, I don't know if people would think that was
offensive, but I thought it was funny.
I also think it's funny you made another point that really was
crucial, but everybody that's in the gay community, it's being
gay, is not just what they're all about.
There is so much more to a person than their identity,
right? Yeah, and I you know, I I think
especially when it comes to like people saying, like I don't
understand, just leave Leaf being gay at home, like what
does that have to do with school?
Or what does that have to do with work?
And I'm like, folks, you can't leave the fact that you're gay
at home anymore than you can leave.
The fact that you're like, Jewish at home or hard of
hearing. Like all you can do is hide
these things. If you feel unsafe, they're
coming to work with you. You can't it's difficult how
many employees through Irish around your shop, you know, it's
right. Like, if you're a gay man at
work, you know, you can switch the pronouns of your husband.
When you talk about, you know, when you refer to your husband,
you know, when you talk about what you did over the weekend
because you don't feel safe, you're still a gay man at work
like that. That's not about what you're
doing in the bedroom. It's not who you are.
It's about your family and who do you love?
And so, I just think that people.
Yeah, people just don't understand that at all, like,
what does that have to do with work on?
Like folks, you know, you got a picture on your desk of your,
your loved one, your you're bringing your spouse to the
come. P'nay, picnic like that.
That's what you know, bringing your orientation to work is
about what we're not bringing to work is our sexual behaviors,
unless we're sex workers. I just want to say that, but in
general, look in the corporate world, we're not bringing our
sexual behaviors to work and people confuse sexual behaviors
with sexual orientation. And I think that that really
rears its ugly head. Often people are confusing,
those two things, sexual behaviors, don't come to work, I
shouldn't be talking about some great new sexual position, my
husband, and I just discovered when I'm talking, you know, in
the lunch room with Mike Coworkers, but I should be.
I should feel safe and comfortable saying, oh, my wife,
and I saw this great movie. So, yeah.
That people there's so much confusion around that and again,
that's just a place where allies can listen, listen for that,
confusion over behavior and orientation, and help to fill
people in on, you know, educate folks on that.
You have anything else because I know before we wrap up like my
mom's gonna have to go because she has to go to work but yeah,
nothing else. I have something else that I'm
very passionate about and it really upsets me.
You know what, I'm going to say nope.
It's a lot of things that you could.
Well, we have a lot of suicides and a lot of people think that
they're not going to, they're going to go to hell.
I'm so tired of hearing people. I'll say God does not see you.
I mean, I know I'm shouldn't be talking about God, but I am
going to talk about God and he should, he doesn't see you.
He doesn't he. You just going to go to hell,
there's a lot of suicides because of that people don't
feel. They don't go to church because
of that. Why do they go to church?
Why should they go to Church of God doesn't like them.
I have got to get through to these people who say that
because if they know these Christians who say, God this God
that you know what? You're not Christian.
If you know, God, you'll know that God made us all and God
loves us. All.
If I could get that through everybody's head I would be so
happy because God's not like that.
So they don't know. God.
So they're pretty there's a lot of Hypocrites.
Hypocrites out there. I'm very passionate about that,
can you tell? Yes, I can let's go.
I really can't stand it because you have to know God if you know
God he loves us all he made us. All he doesn't make mistakes or
your higher power or they love us all because I'm not sure
God's a big old man in the sky. That's why I don't want to say
something. In God from my phone, but
everybody has and I believe everybody should have their own
belief, but a higher power because at the end of the day,
you're all safe. And I wish I could, I do want
it. I do want to say, I don't like
to leave people thinking that, you know, it religious people
are anti lgbtq+ because that that's is not the truth for
many, many people in many Faith communities.
There's a lot of faith. Communities doing, wonderful
things around the lines of creating, you know, affirming
spaces for lgbtq plus folks. So, there are Christians who are
fully on board with lgbtq+ inclusion and I want to make
sure we acknowledge that and we're not just like totally
Bash. All Christians.
But you know, one of the things. Yeah, you know, I just want to I
want to make that clear. I think sometimes people take
away that like oh you're saying Christians are all terrible
people which were not. I think that religion has a
special especially hard because people when I talk about in my
book, about are what we know are lump of knowledge.
What we know of the world, it's especially hard to change things
that we know. And I'm putting no in air
quotes. For those of you who are not
watching this, because it's what we think, we know it's not Not
necessarily factual but stuff that we know in our lump of
knowledge is especially hard to change when we grew up knowing
it. So we've known it for a long
time and other people in our community, also know it.
So that often is the case with religion where this stuff has
been you know part of our lump of knowledge forever.
So changing it is not that there's again in my book I talk
about there's there's no one thing that you are ever going to
say no matter how perfectly crafted and you know angels
singing in the background. This comment is nothing.
You can say. There's no one thing you're
going to say, that's going to ever change, anyone's mind.
That's not how people learn. So I think that is a good thing
to keep in mind because it takes that weight off our shoulder of
like coming up with that perfect thing.
Like what can I say to change this person's mind, nothing.
There's no one thing you can say, what we can do is we can
have respectful conversations where we share our thoughts and
ideas. We plant seeds, and then down
the line, this person may have other conversation.
Like learning is a very, very long process and it's important
to keep that in mind because as you Tracy are you know it sounds
like you're sort of on this mission to like just eliminate
like if people believe this I got to stop them from believing
it. The best way to do that is is
really just have, respectful honest conversations with folks
who are willing to talk with you about it and then let them go on
their path because I never go at somebody's face like that.
I don't, I don't charge into that.
Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah.
I mean even if you even if it's respectful, take the pressure
off your shoulders of like there's there's something I
there's something out there that I can say that's going to
change. As person's belief that they
have held their whole lives. Like there isn't well my
response. The only response I come up with
is I said well I do know that my higher power Makes everybody,
and he doesn't make any mistakes.
He loves everybody. So and I just leave it at that.
That's the seed that I planned. Speaking of that seed, you
really have to go. What time is it two minutes to
get to work by? Jenny was nice to meet you.
Thank you for joining us. That's all the questions I have
for day. Not really, but this
conversation could go on forever.
I know. I agree.
Your mom's great, what a sweetheart.
Yes, I love her. She means very well.
I'm so glad you have any fun jumping heart well, so, should I
just, I'm not sure like what's getting included and what's not.
But so I would just like to welcome anyone who would like to
reach out to me with any additional questions.
I find that I love getting questions from the community.
It makes me a salve, your ally. You can message me.
Directly from my website at Savvy Ally action.com and I will
get back to you with my answer. So Wonderful's, thanks again for
talking to both of us today. GED to everyone listening.
Make sure you check out the Savvy a lie.
I truly believe it is a great resource for everyone to read.
Thank you. Thank you.
This was great. And with that we've been big gay
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