1 00:00:06,520 --> 00:00:09,160 Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy. 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,360 I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora. 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,600 Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,880 queer media. Representation matters. 5 00:00:17,080 --> 00:00:23,400 And we're here to talk about it. Cheers, queers. 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,120 Today on the Big A agenda, we are talking to John Glenn, the 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,720 author of the book The Lost Book of Lancelot. 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,800 Welcome to the podcast, John. Oh, thank you so much for having 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:36,680 me. I'm a fan. 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,320 This is cool. Well, we're so excited to have 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,880 you here. It's so mutual because I will 12 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,040 say when we first got like the e-mail about this, this song to 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,400 my soul, because retellings are like my favorite genre, 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,840 especially when they're queer. So I was like, yes, because 15 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,960 amazing. So with that, as a big fan, I my 16 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:03,440 first question for you is what drew you to Lancelot as the 17 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,400 subject for a queer retelling? I'm very curious. 18 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,880 Oh, my gosh. Well, well, thank you. 19 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,480 Thank you for reading. And I'm thrilled that that 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,440 you're a retelling fan. I was actually, as I was right 21 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,400 in this, I really wanted it to work on like 2 levels. 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,720 I've wanted it to work for people who have maybe never read 23 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:28,120 Arthurian Legend or don't really know anything about the, the 24 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,520 world of King Arthur. But if you are a fan, like if 25 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,720 you're into this stuff, I wanted you to kind of feel the echoes 26 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:40,000 of the source material and feel like I've, I've sort of honored 27 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,280 that tradition too. So it was sort of those two, 28 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,320 those two types of readers that I had in mind. 29 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:51,200 But in terms of like, why? Why Lancelot? 30 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:58,680 So, you know, back in like 2021, I read Madeline Miller's The 31 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,760 Song of Achilles, which I can see your face. 32 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,200 You are a fan. Yeah. 33 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,600 It's like it. It's just like, it is a banner. 34 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:15,160 Like, it is so awesome. It's a retelling of the Iliad 35 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,280 that centers this gay love story between Achilles and Patrick 36 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,360 Luz. And she's drawing that from, you 37 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,920 know, from the source material. And it was so cool. 38 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:28,720 Like, it was really kind of like eye opening for me. 39 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,640 And that, like, wow. Like, what other ancient queer 40 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:37,320 stories have just been, you know, sort of with us all this 41 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,240 time, right? Like that, that have just been 42 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,560 hiding in plain sight, like that maybe just never crossed my own 43 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,160 purview. And so I started doing some 44 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,520 research and I found Lancelot and Gale Hoot. 45 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,760 And you know, I should say first of all, like I did, it's not 46 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,920 like I was like digging into some like archive here. 47 00:02:58,920 --> 00:03:02,040 And like I discover, you know, it was like, here are the gays. 48 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:07,360 I found them guys that, you know, like there there's been a 49 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,560 whole body of scholarly work written about Lancelot and GAIL 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,320 who. And but if you, if you go into, 51 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,960 if you look at sort of later. So if you go back to the 13th 52 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,520 century, I'm, I'm gonna, is it OK if I go into the history a 53 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:24,160 little? Oh. 54 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:25,200 Yes. No, please. 55 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:26,880 Please do. Retelling. 56 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:29,440 Please do. All right, so if you go back to 57 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,760 like the 13th century, there's this version of Arthurian legend 58 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,000 called the Vulgate Cycle. It's written in Old French. 59 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,400 There's like 1 English translation of it. 60 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,480 I'm staring at it on my desk right now. 61 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,240 It's 10 volumes long. It's like a thousands of pages. 62 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,840 It's really like, it's daunting. But in the Lancelot section, 63 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,600 that's where this queer coded love story between Lancelot and 64 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,600 Gielhood exists. And it's really sort of 65 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,560 remarkable. But then later versions of it, 66 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,360 like by the time you get to like Sir Thomas Mallory, who wrote 67 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,080 the Mort to Arthur, which is like the version that if you 68 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,960 read Arthurian legend in high school, you probably read some 69 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,760 of Mallory. GAIL hoots like barely 70 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,959 mentioned. He's like a footnote, right? 71 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:20,399 Like people know Galahad, who's Lancelot's son. 72 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:23,080 He's sort of prominent. But like GAIL hoots like not 73 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,480 really. He's like not one of the major 74 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,320 figures who's like, you know what? 75 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:32,160 It wouldn't it be cool to kind of bring that love story back to 76 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,840 the center, like resurface it, you know? 77 00:04:34,840 --> 00:04:39,120 So that was kind of where that was why Lancelot that that was 78 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,160 how I got from from point to point. 79 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,160 BI love that more than anything, because I mean it totally makes 80 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,680 because again, in the in the book you do talk about how this 81 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,560 was basically a transition period historically between like 82 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,320 quote the old ways, the new ways, which was like the Romans 83 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,800 taking over and Christianity rising and all that kind of 84 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,200 stuff. So like, you can see in the 85 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,560 story, there's that erasure of queerness and things like that 86 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:04,560 that are kind of already happening. 87 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,280 So it makes sense that a scholar way later who's deep and 88 00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:08,960 Christianity was like, yeah, about that. 89 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,240 No. So that's really fascinating. 90 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,760 Thank you for that. Yeah, no, it will. 91 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:19,600 It's interesting too, because you know, if King Arthur 92 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:24,440 existed, what she probably like, maybe he was, maybe he did, He 93 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,120 would have lived in the five hundreds or six hundreds. 94 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,240 But then a lot of these stories that we that have survived from 95 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,960 the medieval times were written in like the 11/12/13 hundreds. 96 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,960 And they're not looking at Arthur as like a historical 97 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,240 figure, right? Like they're writing him as a 98 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:48,800 contemporary figure and they're instilling contemporary like 12 99 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,840 Hunt, like 12th, 13th century values on him, which were very 100 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:56,600 much like, there's like this Christian morality to these 101 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,120 tales. So you kind of have to. 102 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,240 And, and of course, like Lancelot and Gilwood's 103 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,880 relationship, that would have been forbidden in that paradigm. 104 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:09,280 So it was sort of like you're kind of like writing into the 105 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:12,480 gaps and trying to like scrape away like what's beneath the 106 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,160 surface. But yeah, it was it was really 107 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,280 fun to to research. That's so fun, I love that. 108 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,400 And. I also love how you're you want 109 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,360 the book to resonate with people who know the legends and also 110 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,560 don't because that's you have like the perfect group of people 111 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:36,480 here because I know nothing. I love that Fiora knows at least 112 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:41,080 something about it. She loves all these time types 113 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,640 of legends and mythology and kudos to her because she teaches 114 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,480 me so much. But I know nothing. 115 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,880 So I'm reading this. I'm like, oh this is so cool. 116 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:51,640 I'm learning everything for the first time. 117 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,280 I'm like. What? 118 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:56,440 I love that. Good. 119 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,720 That's that's exactly what I was hoping. 120 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,800 You know, I really wanted to make the characters feel first 121 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,360 and foremost like very real and knowable, right? 122 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,400 Because if you can connect with the characters, you'll be able 123 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,960 to step into the the world, right? 124 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,600 Like there is world building, but I didn't want it to to sort 125 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,560 of dominate the the novel. I really wanted it to be rooted 126 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,240 in like in human connection and relationships beyond anything 127 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,760 else. I think you definitely nailed 128 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,800 that to be honest, because yeah, sometimes world building can be 129 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,760 like daunting in the story or overpowering. 130 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,600 And I feel like you were very subtle about it and and did a 131 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:37,960 good job crafting that. So I would totally agree with 132 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,240 that. Thank you. 133 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,920 Yeah, it's nice to hear. Why did you choose to start the 134 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,040 novel before Lancelot knew he was Lancelot? 135 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,680 So that actually is rooted in the source text. 136 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:55,720 He yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of this is is 137 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,120 rooted in the source text. So in pretty much every version 138 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:05,560 of of Lancelot's story, he's raised by this character called 139 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:12,680 the Lady of the Lake. And he in some versions, his his 140 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:18,160 parents die and some versions his mother runs off to a nunnery 141 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:20,640 and the Lady of the Lake swoops him. 142 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,120 But he always has this surrogate mother. 143 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,920 And in the Vulgate cycle, in that old version that I was 144 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,080 really drawing from, he doesn't know. 145 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,280 He doesn't know his name at first. 146 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,600 He doesn't know his lineage. He doesn't know who he is. 147 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,799 And that's sort of something that gets echoed in Arthurian 148 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:42,360 legend and other stories too. You know, King Arthur, like you 149 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,840 think of like Disney's the sword and the stone, right, like as 150 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,720 the very like the easiest sort of entry point. 151 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,680 Certainly for me, like that was my first encounter with 152 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:56,760 Arthurian legend was like going to blockbuster and getting, you 153 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:02,280 know, getting the video. But Arthur, you know, it's not 154 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,200 until he pulls the sword from the stone when everyone's like, 155 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,960 Oh my God, this, this. No, nobody is is king. 156 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,400 You know, he didn't know he had that, that lineage. 157 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:20,320 And and so Lancelot at first doesn't know that that he that 158 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:25,920 he has this sort of there's this prophecy about him and that he's 159 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,560 sort of tied to these to to greatness in a way. 160 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:33,720 So that that actually came from from the the original. 161 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,400 It's such an interesting starting point because there's, 162 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,160 at least historically, there's always that like there's power 163 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,160 and a name kind of thing. So it's very, it is interesting 164 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,040 in our theory and legend and with Lancelot that a lot of 165 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,320 these very prominent influential people in the legend don't know 166 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,200 their name. So it's like they almost come 167 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,080 from a place without power and then grow into the power at 168 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,440 these pivotal moments. So it's it's just interesting in 169 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,200 the context of like the time period. 170 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:03,960 Isn't it? Yeah, there's something about 171 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,640 like when you're raised outside that power and privilege that 172 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,480 when you step into it, you know, you're going to sort of 173 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,960 inherently just have a different sort of world view, right. 174 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,560 Like, I, I mean, we could kind of see that now in like our, our 175 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:25,360 current moment. How wouldn't that wouldn't that 176 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,440 sort of benefit all of us? But but yeah. 177 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,280 OK, just pivoting a little bit. So something else I found 178 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,160 really, really interesting also in this novel, and I think maybe 179 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,800 this is from the cycle that you read, but throughout the story 180 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,760 is particularly in the beginning, but throughout, I 181 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,600 think Lancelot has a really interesting relationship with 182 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,960 time where it's not always linear for him, especially when 183 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,440 he's on the Isle of Women. So why did you decide to 184 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,640 incorporate this like atypical relationship with time when it 185 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:00,440 comes to Lancelot story? Yeah, So that I also sort of 186 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,000 drew a little from the source texts. 187 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,680 You know, there's this sense that Lancelot is sort of he he 188 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:11,720 sort of matures very quickly and rapidly and kind of a set he 189 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:17,680 sends into his greatness it at an accelerated pace, let's say. 190 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,960 And so I kind of took that and, and played with it a little and 191 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,920 it does it, it worked both like as sort of an homage to that 192 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,240 piece of the story, but also just as like a narrative device 193 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,240 too. So he is raised on this 194 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,280 mysterious island. It's called the Isle of Women. 195 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,600 And he's the only boy on this on this island. 196 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:50,520 And the other occupants of the island are it's seven women who 197 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,960 they basically are these descendants of these ancient 198 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,600 priestesses who hold a ton of power basically. 199 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,720 And they know magic and they're they sort of have all of these 200 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:04,720 traditions and very mystical ways. 201 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,120 And Lancelot is very much an outsider. 202 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,360 He is not Privy to their magic. And they kind of with the 203 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,160 exception of his surrogate mother and maybe one other 204 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,400 character, they kind of keep him at arms arm's length a little. 205 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,000 But because of that, like he grows up like in a very 206 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:29,440 sheltered way, right? And so time, time is sort of it 207 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,800 is slippery for him. You know, he doesn't the the 208 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:38,560 Isle of Women is a season like it's a perpetual summer, right? 209 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:44,160 So they don't even have the seasons to really sort of chart 210 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,240 against like a linear sense of time. 211 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,960 So I kind of played played into that. 212 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,560 But then there comes a moment when Lancelot actually falls in 213 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:59,560 love for the first time, that suddenly time clicks into place 214 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:02,400 for him. And then he does start 215 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:09,920 experiencing it the way others do and which is time as 216 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,040 something that's fleeting, right? 217 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,080 Time that, you know, you wish suddenly you wish you could slow 218 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,880 it down and savor all of this. And, and of course you can't, 219 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,200 right? And so that was sort of how I 220 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,160 how I played with it. Yeah, I really loved that. 221 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,560 And then I started noticing after that point when like yell, 222 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:32,160 who comes in and like time starts to make like become 223 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:33,560 linear. It's almost like Lance, like, 224 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:36,640 goes through these periods of like befores and afters and he 225 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,440 starts noticing that there's like these pivotal transitions 226 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,880 in his life and he's more like aware of it. 227 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,480 So I really love the way you played with that. 228 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,320 It was very fun to watch that evolve. 229 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,440 Thank you. Yeah, it was really, it was fun 230 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,600 to write too. And like it seems as we're 231 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,640 talking about, it almost seems a little confusing describing it, 232 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,440 but it was very kind of like natural, like it very much arose 233 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,520 in the telling. Like it just kind of it kind of 234 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,760 it kind of made made sense. Yeah, I think it definitely 235 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,560 makes sense, especially like to your point when you're like 236 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:11,400 talking about describing the Isle of Women, like it's a it's 237 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,680 a constant place. So like every day is basically 238 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:15,920 the same. So yeah, it makes sense that 239 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,840 this warp sense that. That's why I love when he's like 240 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:19,520 experiencing winter for the first time. 241 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:20,160 The realism. Yeah. 242 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,240 Like what is all this? Because it's so true. 243 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,920 He's a summer baby, like. I feel that with Winters here. 244 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,360 Yeah, I'm like this again. I forgot how bad it is. 245 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,680 I cannot imagine like not experiencing winter before and 246 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,160 then like just being thrown in there randomly. 247 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,800 That must be so jarring. Right like Oh my God, snow are 248 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,240 like what is this? Oh my God, I love that scene 249 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,560 where Lancelot's trying to describe snow and he's like, 250 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,840 it's like water but it's like weird, must be snow. 251 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,360 It is so real. I love that scene. 252 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,760 Well, Speaking of Lancelot falling in love and time 253 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,800 clicking, how did you choose Lancelot's love interest? 254 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,880 Did you like take creative license at all or did you pull 255 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,840 that from mythology? So that's a, that's a great 256 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,840 question because I feel like that's sort of the backbone of 257 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,160 the whole story, right? Is this this love story between 258 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,600 Lancelot and Gale Hoot? And it's certainly there in the 259 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:29,720 Vulgate cycle, but like, but I had to write into a lot of gaps, 260 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,480 right. So sort of the biggest license 261 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:37,120 that I took with their story. We have them training together. 262 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,920 That's how they first meet. And, and GAIL, who comes to the 263 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,240 Isle of women, they make an exception for him. 264 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:50,640 They allow another, another male to be on the island And, and his 265 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,160 mother comes with him and her name is Pagoda. 266 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,920 And she, she was really fun to write. 267 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:04,120 First of all, she's, she's a badass. 268 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,880 Like she. So she is mentioned in literally 269 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,240 like 1 version that I know of, like all of these tales. 270 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:16,080 She's mentioned once in this Italian version called Tavola 271 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,840 Rotonda. And she's, all we really know 272 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:24,000 about her is that she's beautiful and she's a giantess. 273 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:25,880 Those are like the only two things. 274 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:31,840 So in in my rendering, I made her, I made her a knight. 275 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,680 And she's like a badass knight. She's like the best knight. 276 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,520 And she's basically, I mean, like she's pretty much like 277 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,480 almost a one for one of like Brienne of Tarth from Game of 278 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:51,280 Thrones. Like, yeah, totally right. 279 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,800 Like that's what I was picturing too. 280 00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:01,680 And so, so GAIL who he comes and, and their training together 281 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:08,160 becomes sort of this, you know, Lancelot, he has grown up with 282 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,119 really no social interaction. So now there's this other 283 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:14,040 contempt He has a he has a contemporary here. 284 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:19,960 And he is so desperate for connection and for camaraderie 285 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:25,119 and for for GAIL who's approval, but he's also so self-conscious 286 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,520 of of projecting that desperation. 287 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,320 He is so afraid that he will come across as desperate. 288 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,160 So he's like, he's just all worked up. 289 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:40,560 And then Gil, who he see, you see, he seems like he is really 290 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,400 confident. And, you know, he's a Prince. 291 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,840 He lives on this other island in the same archipelago and 292 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,960 seemingly, you know, has a lot of friends and family and 293 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:54,120 cousins and everything. But he's actually, we find out 294 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:57,760 like he's kind of intimidated by Lancelot too, because he knows 295 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,800 there's this prophecy about Lancelot that he's going, that 296 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,320 he's destined to be sort of one of the greatest Knights. 297 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,280 And so they're both kind of like dancing around each other and 298 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,120 they're both drawn to each other, but they have all these 299 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:16,680 walls up that need to slowly crumble for them to to finally 300 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,120 connect. And that's that tension is kind 301 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:24,480 of what drives the certainly the first third, if not most of the 302 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,600 book. No, I love the, I love the 303 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,280 training scenes. And yeah, Lancelot to me seemed 304 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,840 very, he was very in his head, a lot of that. 305 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:33,960 Oh yeah. The back and forth of being like 306 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:35,960 should I, shouldn't I, Should I? What if he? 307 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,520 Like the way he was just he would just interpret things in 308 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,080 such a negative way. Like anytime Gayle who would say 309 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,520 something I was like oh poor baby Lancelot learning how to be 310 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,560 human. I know, I know like after, like 311 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,720 after I finished the last draft of this book, I kind of like I, 312 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,080 I miss, I miss the characters a little, you know, because like 313 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,840 you live with them for so long and like, they're both like 314 00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:02,840 they, they kind of like you carried them them with you, you 315 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,880 know, when, when you spend a lot of time writing them. 316 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,680 So, yeah, no, I'm, I'm glad that glad that you, you like that 317 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:10,240 part too. I did. 318 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,960 Love that. Switching gears just slightly. 319 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,160 So in the novel, there's more than which something I wasn't 320 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,840 expecting and I'm happy about. So there's multiple queer 321 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,200 characters like running about in this story. 322 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,000 And so given the historical time period of the of the novel, how 323 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,120 did you approach writing queer characters in general and also 324 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:35,760 their relationships like to their families and things like. 325 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,480 That it's so it was really interesting. 326 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,360 I think like if there's one element that I really sort of 327 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,440 took a lot of liberty with and and made sort of modern, I'm 328 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,600 kind of almost grafting more of a modern sensibility of 329 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:56,000 queerness onto these characters simply because I I thought it 330 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:02,320 would be an interesting way in for a modern audience, but also 331 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,480 because these relationships probably couldn't quite exist 332 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,760 otherwise. So what I did some of the 333 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:15,960 characters in this book? Adhere to the old ways, which is 334 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,520 basically like a Pagan tradition, and within that is 335 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,800 sort of a more inclusive world view of sexuality. 336 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:27,360 And then some characters adhere to the new ways, which is more 337 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:31,280 of like Christianity. And we're told that, you know, 338 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,080 Lancelot's warned, like people that practice the new ways 339 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:41,320 aren't going to be so accepting. So in Camelot, though, you have 340 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,680 sort of this interesting convergence of the old ways, the 341 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,760 new ways. Basically it's all about 342 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,800 acceptance and tolerance and inclusivity. 343 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,760 In this version of Camelot, anything goes. 344 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,360 People in Camelot are sort of enlightened enough to see that 345 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:02,840 like these two different systems of meaning are kind of getting 346 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,040 at the same thing in different ways. 347 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:12,160 So Lancelot arrives at at Camelot and he's still sort of, 348 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,960 he has that warning, though, in the back of his mind, right? 349 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,240 Like, and so he's not forthcoming really about this 350 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,760 element of his identity. And, and to be honest, like 351 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,720 it's, it's hard to know how people from that era would have 352 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,560 even really thought like, it's not like they were like, oh, I'm 353 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,760 a gay person, right. Like that there wouldn't 354 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:39,520 necessarily be that sort of fixed sense of identity, social 355 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,640 identity attached to and sexual identity attached to just those 356 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:50,480 those attractions basically. So it was kind of, I guess I was 357 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,120 like, kind of like walking, you know, walking a fine line with 358 00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:00,960 trying to make it feel realistic enough to the the era and that 359 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,240 world, but also make it feel sort of very legible to someone 360 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:10,120 and even like relatable, right. To someone who has anyone who's 361 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:13,120 ever been in the closet before will sort of relate to that 362 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,840 feeling of like that anxiety, right? 363 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,240 Yes. Will I be accepted? 364 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,120 You know, will, will my, will my family accept me? 365 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,760 You know, will I will, I will my relationships change, you know, 366 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:29,320 Yeah. Yeah, I think that definitely 367 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,640 translated with Lancelot in a lot of his relationships, 368 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,720 especially with the warning of like, you go to Camelot, things 369 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,600 gonna be different. And he does. 370 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,960 He has a lot of anxiety for Lancelot. 371 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,280 But yeah, no, I agree with that. I thought it was a good because 372 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,920 like, like you said, like we have a modern lens looking at 373 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,720 these things. So it was very the song of 374 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,800 Achilles where it's like they're not going to label themselves 375 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,480 because there was no label. So they're just living their 376 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,480 lives. So I really like how you 377 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,080 portrayed that and I thought it fit to everything you just said. 378 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,680 Thanks. Well, Speaking of anxiety 379 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:08,520 throughout the. Yeah. 380 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,400 It was actually perfect. Thank you PR. 381 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:11,800 It's like you knew all questions almost. 382 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,280 Like I know the questions. Yeah, Throughout the novel, 383 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,240 Lancelot battles with mental health challenges. 384 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,880 Why was this important for you to include? 385 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,520 Great question. And so it's interesting cuz 386 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,520 again, like the source texts are so rich here in so many 387 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,800 different versions. Lancelot, he like goes mad, 388 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,240 right? Like he in one, one version he 389 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,680 like jumps out a window like he's, he's sort of like this. 390 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:50,600 He's he feels things very deeply, but then his emotions 391 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,320 and his sort of repetitive thoughts kind of overtake him. 392 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,440 And the way it's described in the source text is, is is 393 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,920 madness. Basically, he goes mad. 394 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,000 And so I knew that going in that like, all right, here is a 395 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:12,200 character who is very much at the whim of his emotions, right? 396 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,400 And I wanted those to feel, you know, I wanted to sort of honor 397 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,960 that element of him that he's, you know, he's someone who feels 398 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,560 things deeply. But you know, his madness sort 399 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,480 of we get sort of spurts of it in the beginning. 400 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,880 We get hints that like this is something like if he's not 401 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,840 careful, if he doesn't keep his emotions in check, like he can 402 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,920 really spiral and like totally unravel. 403 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:47,640 And so that also kind of it became a bit of like like a 404 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,480 tinderbox to for the reader. It was a way to like sort of 405 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,600 subtly suggest that like, hey, like we don't know what's 406 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,840 coming, but we do know that if the pressure keeps mounting on 407 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,920 this character, he might eventually break. 408 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,720 And what will that look like when that happens? 409 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,560 So it was both like there were like a couple levels of it. 410 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,840 The first was this is rooted in the actual material. 411 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:20,200 Second hit, that sort of impending sense of doom was just 412 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,520 a narrative way of kind of like keeping the reader turning the 413 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,840 pages. What's going to happen to this 414 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,080 person? Is he going to be OK? 415 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,640 That sort of becomes a driving question. 416 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,800 I think of like pretty much any, any book, any successful book, 417 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,520 you know, is this main character who I'm moving through time 418 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,040 with, Are they going to be OK? And then, you know, I also 419 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,160 wanted it to, you know, the reader to be able to step into 420 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,800 his emotional experiences and, and maybe see, you know, maybe 421 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,920 sort of see themselves reflected a little in it too. 422 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,040 You know, like, gosh, I've, I've been there before where, you 423 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,320 know, heartache and grief and all of it just feels so heavy. 424 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:10,000 And it does feel like sometimes the world is just crashing down 425 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,280 on me and how do you make it through? 426 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,840 And so, yeah, that was sort of those were the various elements 427 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,000 I was thinking about. Yeah. 428 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,240 And that that I think helps especially when doing when 429 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,680 bringing a mythological or mythological is probably a 430 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,880 better word figure to life. Is this humanizing them? 431 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,040 Because in the myth they get dehumanized and was like God 432 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,160 like status at that point. So it did humanized Lancelot a 433 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,400 lot to see him really battle like within himself a lot when 434 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,040 it came to his not just his emotions, but just like dealing 435 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,920 with his experiences again. He was sheltered on an island 436 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,760 for a very long time and then had a lot of jarring experiences 437 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,000 past that. And so it did help at least me 438 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,360 connect with him as a human to human kind of thing. 439 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,240 Great. All right, so speaking with of 440 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,320 human connections, aside from Lancelot's love interests in the 441 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,640 novel, he had a lot of complicated relationships with 442 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,640 most characters like Arthur, Merlin, and Morgan. 443 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,400 So when you were developing the other Arthurian legends in this 444 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,280 story, how did you decide what what to keep from Canon? 445 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,160 I use the term Canon loosely cause a lot of Canon versus like 446 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,200 use your creative license for. It's a really good question. 447 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:33,800 And so one thing I I did was I only read like I, I cut myself 448 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,600 off at Mallory, you know, like I, which is like from like the 449 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,880 14 or 15 hundreds. So like any sort of like modern 450 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,600 and you know, like anything written beyond that. 451 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,960 I didn't read because I wanted to kind of come at these 452 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,240 characters with kind of a fresh lens and sort of pick through 453 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,880 and create my own interpretation of them. 454 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,440 But at the same time, you know, even if you have sort of just a 455 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,840 passing knowledge of Arthurian legend, you know, Merlin, right, 456 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,880 you know, Kane, Arthur, you know, Guinevere, like maybe you 457 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,960 know, Morgan Lafay. And like I wanted to, you got to 458 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,440 include like these these like icotic figures, right? 459 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,960 Like they're like the marquee, like they're like sort of the 460 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,680 anchors of the story. So like, of course they were 461 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,320 going to be in there and Lancelot's journey. 462 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,320 Absolutely. He's interacting with all of 463 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,640 these characters. But the, I would say, I mean, 464 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,440 Morgan Lafay was, was maybe one of my favorite characters to 465 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,120 write because and, and she's sort of indicative of a lot of 466 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:50,640 the women in this tradition who it you know, they're either, you 467 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,400 know, they're either like presented as like princesses or 468 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,280 like Queens who are like known only for their, their exquisite 469 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:04,600 beauty and their poise, but like nothing else, or they are these 470 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,400 outsiders sort of witch archetypes. 471 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:15,200 And Morgan is interesting because she is this character 472 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:20,240 who out throughout Arthurian legend who sews, she sews chaos, 473 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,720 but she also she holds a lot of power. 474 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:30,280 Oh, she holds a lot of sway over all of the nights of Camelot. 475 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,240 And as I kept looking at like a lot of these other women in the, 476 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,000 in the Canon, that was sort of true for all of them, even if 477 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,960 they were written in like kind of A1 dimensional way, there's 478 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,120 still there, there is this element you can kind of trace, 479 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,920 trace out the, the power that they inhabit. 480 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,880 And so I, this book is very much like we are in a matriarchal 481 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,280 society. The men think that they are, are 482 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,600 sort of the, you know, they're going the most of the men, not, 483 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,000 not all. There are women who are also 484 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,760 sort of on this quest for the Holy Grail, but like the men are 485 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,360 going out on these quests, but they're not in control, right? 486 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,640 It's very much the women in this book and especially on the Isle 487 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,960 of women who hold all of the cards, so to speak, like the the 488 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,000 world hangs in the balance because of them, because they're 489 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,360 keeping things together. So I thought that was sort of AI 490 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,080 liked that because it also felt it's sort of true to the 491 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,360 original. Like it wasn't, it wasn't like 492 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,120 it didn't even really feel like that much of A stretch to kind 493 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,680 of write the book that way. It just felt like sort of very 494 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,160 much like this is a read that you can pull out and extract. 495 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,520 Yeah, I definitely that makes total sense in that when you're 496 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,640 the way you're explaining, that does make me think differently 497 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,040 about like Merlin versus Morgan. Cuz like Merlin, you think he's 498 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,400 in control and there's like he's this chaos demon. 499 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,520 Just run it totally around, really just blowing things up. 500 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,360 Yes, exactly. Yeah, Oh my gosh, I just loved 501 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,200 reading this book. It's I couldn't put it down at 502 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,760 times too. Like there was times from like 503 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,520 putting off podcast work and I'm like, I'm just going to lay here 504 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:26,920 and read some more. Oh, that makes me so happy to 505 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,040 hear. Yeah, like, yeah, I, I the back 506 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,600 hat, the last like maybe quarter of the book in particular is 507 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,280 very, the pacing is very accelerated. 508 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,960 And I can imagine, like I'm anticipating that some people 509 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,000 might not like that. Like some people might, might 510 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,280 think that it feels almost too fast. 511 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,920 But I wanted to, I did that intentionally. 512 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:55,520 And part of what I did too was in the, in the Vulgate cycle, 513 00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,280 there's this technique called interlacing where you hop from 1 514 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,640 scene to the next and you might be with 1 character, then you 515 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,400 move to another character, then you pick up where you left off 516 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,280 with another character. And the easiest structural 517 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,720 comparison is a soap opera, right? 518 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,720 Like this. It's like General Hospital, 519 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,480 literally you're going from 1 scene to the next, but like it's 520 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,880 progressive, but it's, it's fragmented. 521 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:28,280 And so the the last act I do weave in some other perspectives 522 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,200 to kind of heighten the tension in a very subtle way. 523 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,720 Like it's not I, I didn't want to like, I didn't want to write 524 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,200 the whole book like this. I didn't want it want it to feel 525 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,080 too, too out of left field structurally. 526 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,520 But that is sort of a little ode to that structure in the Vulgate 527 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,520 cycle. So I'm glad that I'm glad that 528 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,480 it, it kept you turning the pages, Caitlin. 529 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:56,440 That's how it makes me happy. It also helps with I have ADHD 530 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,200 and the chapters are quite short. 531 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,440 Yes, so like. And then it's just easy. 532 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:01,960 But like this one's just shorter. 533 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,080 It's like I'm just going to keep going. 534 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,000 And then you just. And then late, another hour pass 535 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,560 and you're like, oh wow, OK, I'm still here and. 536 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,720 I want to keep going. I love that. 537 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:18,240 But anyway, what insight into Lancelot's mythology do you hope 538 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,960 readers will take away from The Lost Book of Lancelot? 539 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:28,600 Oh man, I mean, honestly, I like my goal with this book was super 540 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,360 simple. Like if you take away something 541 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,600 from if you learn a little bit more about, you know, Lancelot 542 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,400 story in this world, that's great. 543 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,760 But like, I just wanted to entertain at the end of the day. 544 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,640 Like, I feel like it's hard out there, you know, and like, if 545 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,720 this book can be a little escape hatch from reality and like the 546 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,360 just the daily pressures of life, that really was the, 547 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,560 that's the only thing that I would want readers to take away, 548 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,000 you know, just just to be entertained. 549 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,360 I mean, judging by Caitlin's description, I think he nailed 550 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:07,800 it. Right. 551 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,920 Good. OK. 552 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:13,800 But good segue. Speaking of entertainment. 553 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,440 So we have the book The Lost Book of Landslide. 554 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,800 If if this ever gets adapted into a movie or ATV series or 555 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,080 something, who would you cast to play Lancelot? 556 00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,239 Oh my God, everyone keeps asking me this. 557 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,840 I'm curious. I don't, I don't know. 558 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:38,679 I so, oh gosh, I, I really haven't have no idea. 559 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:43,440 I feel like Ryan Gosling is too old now to play Lancelot. 560 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,639 But like CGI? Yeah, I feel like some like a 561 00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:51,480 younger version of Ryan, Ryan Gosling maybe would have the 562 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,400 right look. Like someone with like, we need 563 00:34:54,400 --> 00:35:00,440 someone who's like, blonde with like, tousled hair for GAIL who? 564 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,600 He's a redhead, so maybe he's played by like a Tom Holland or 565 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,960 something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 566 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,120 Well, who? Who do you, who do you got? 567 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,640 Who do you think is Lancelot? It's hard, right? 568 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,720 Yeah, oh man, I forget his name. Maybe Caitlin can help. 569 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:23,160 The actor that played in red, white and royal blue who plays 570 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:24,640 the Prince. Yeah. 571 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,120 Maybe a goodness. I love him. 572 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,440 He's such a good actor. He's great. 573 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:30,640 He's great. I forget his name. 574 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,360 I that's a crime, but I forgot his name. 575 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:33,360 But I feel like. He would be good. 576 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:34,640 I think his name is like Nicholas. 577 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,720 Sometimes, yes, Nicholas. Yes, Nicholas. 578 00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:38,400 You're right. His last name begins with AG. 579 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,600 But I think he would be a good, he'd be good, Lance. 580 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,120 He'd be great. Give you all that emoting stuff 581 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,120 too. I think he'd do a good job. 582 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,280 I like Tom Holland for. I think Tom Holland could nail, 583 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,560 especially when they're like, younger and like training. 584 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,280 I think Tom Holland could nail, yeah. 585 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,480 I think so. Now I just want to see it. 586 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:05,360 I know you're welcome everyone. So if you could write another 587 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,160 query retelling of a mythological or historical 588 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,520 figure, who would it be and why? Oh my. 589 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,640 Gosh, wow. We asked the hard questions 590 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,000 here. Oh my God. 591 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,600 Oh, I really don't know. I have an idea for I have an 592 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,320 idea that is not quite a retelling, but like a 593 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:33,120 reimagining, A queer reimagining of, of a very popular story that 594 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,280 I'm thinking through right now that I'm not quite right to talk 595 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,560 about. But what other, you know what 596 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,040 would be cool? This is like totally different, 597 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:48,440 but like, I would kind of love more of like a queer X-Men, 598 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,400 right? Yes, like explicitly queer. 599 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,600 Not just sometimes. Yeah, yeah. 600 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,720 Like there's something like, I don't know, Yeah. 601 00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:00,320 Like Cyclops always seems kind of gay to me. 602 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,840 Oh, for sure. Definitely. 603 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,360 That would be really cool. Maybe I'll go with, let's go 604 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,640 with that. Yeah, there's so much to play 605 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,240 with in just the X-Men universe. They usually go on forever with 606 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,840 those retellings. That's a good franchise that 607 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,640 that would be great. All right, John, well, those are 608 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,520 the end of the questions that we have today. 609 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,760 We just want to again, thank you for writing this novel. 610 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,120 We really, really loved it. For those of you out there 611 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,240 listening to this, please check out the Lost Book of Lancelot. 612 00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:34,480 It is fantastic. If you didn't get that from this 613 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,920 interview, for those out there that want to support you, how 614 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,320 can how's the best way that they can support you and connect with 615 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:41,920 you? Oh gosh. 616 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,040 Well, yeah, I I would love it if this book sounds intriguing to 617 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,000 you. I'd love it if you would pick it 618 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,920 up. It's available wherever books 619 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,080 are sold. You can request it from your 620 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,000 local library. It's available on audio also or 621 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,920 ebook. You can follow me if you want on 622 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:06,000 Instagram. Glenner, my last name ER 85 or 623 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,120 John Glenn books on TikTok, though I'm I'm more frequently 624 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,680 on Instagram. Awesome. 625 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,080 So check out John, check out the novel again. 626 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,040 Thank you for taking the time to talk to us. 627 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,200 For everybody out there, until next time, hydrate for lesbian 628 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,160 Jesus. Up all over the place. 629 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,160 Bye. Bye. 630 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,720 And with that, we've been big gay energy. 631 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,600 Thank you for listening. 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