Hello, and welcome to Big Gay Energy.
I'm Caitlin. And I'm Theora.
Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of
queer media. Representation matters, and
we're here to talk about it. Cheers, queers.
What's on the Big Gay agenda today, Theora?
Today it's Book Club. It's that time of the month
where we talk about a queer book together, and today it will be
me, Caitlin and Cole is joining us, and we're going to be
talking about Iris Kelly Doesn't Date by Ashley Herring Blake.
This is the last book basically in a trilogy called the Bright
Fall series about basically a bunch of group of characters,
and each book focuses on a particular friend in the friend
group. But it's in one universe.
So we're going to talk about the Iris Kelly book today because
that's the only one I've read, correct?
I've read them all. I read 2.
So we got each. Each level up or level down, I
guess, depending how you look at it.
I'm at the bottom of the pack. It's all right.
You saved the best one in my opinion.
This is the best one. I think I think it is that's.
My. Biased opinion.
OK, so before we get into this, I forgot.
I don't know why I forgot. It's my section.
Next I will say everything I have to If you're watching this
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You could. Probably put a compilation
together of all the times I messed this intro up and just
have the whole thing be me messing it up.
Oh no, it's it's great every time.
Specifically for book club people.
So if you're into book club specifically, if you come over
to our Discord, we basically do like a virtual book club where
we like, read it and talk about it as we're reading it.
So for Iris Kelly, we read it during the month of February of
2024. So if you're interested in
participating in Book Club and like talking with us and that
discussion will probably end up on the episode, head over to our
Discord to like, participate in Book Club.
It's virtual, it's whenever you want, but we usually dedicate a
specific month to reading the book before we record the
episode. So if you're interested, click
the link below and join us over there.
And if you just want to talk about books in general, like
there's a bunch of book nerds in there that are super fun and
give amazing recommendations. Yes, join us.
Join us. Do you feel pressure yet?
Do it. That was probably the funniest
intro. Like, do it.
All right, so let's jump into book them.
So yeah, today we're gonna talk about Iris Kelly Doesn't date
us. And if you've never read it, but
you kind of wanna know a little bit about what it's about before
diving into it, hang out for the first like 10 minutes or so.
We're gonna give a spoiler free review and just synopsis of the
book. So what is it about Iris Kelly
this this lady? If you're looking on YouTube,
Redhead wonder. She's in a rut.
Her next novel is due. All she has is a title and
basically a bunch of friends who are coupled up and gang it all
over the place. So how does Iris Kelly solve her
rut? By fake dating a total stranger
she meets in a bar. You know, for research.
Quote. In walks Stevie, anxiety in
human form, who just got of a out of a major lengthy
relationship and is psyching herself up to find love.
What could possibly go wrong? Who knows?
What could go wrong? There's no way anything could go
wrong, Theora. No, it sounds perfect so that
that's basically what it's about.
So if each host here, if you could describe the book in three
words without spoiling anything, what would you say?
OK, so first of all, three words.
Theora, you wanted this to be a short Section 3 words I you told
me that I'm just like, I didn't mean that short.
Anyway, let's do it. I really, really, really, really
thought about this. So my answer is vulnerability
meets confidence. Oh, that's great.
Call. So I want to go last 'cause I
did not follow the three word rule.
'Cause I couldn't I I. Couldn't.
I couldn't, like, condense this into 3 words so I I could I
could go now. It's fine.
So I I'm calling it a gay cliche, but with a caveat, but
in the best way. Ugly gay cliches are great.
OK, my 3 words fake dating supremacy.
It's my favorite trope, so I'm here for this.
OK, so to conclude our spoiler free section, how much big gay
energy would you say Iris Kelly doesn't date have?
If I had to rank it, I would say an entire theater troupes worth
Taylor. So we were obviously we're not
going with numbers this time. I decided that it has a
lifetime's worth of big a energy because I feel like we've seen
their life. I feel like we can see the
future that they're going towards and I just.
We got it. All, and that's why I think it's
a lifetime. Oh, that's a good one.
That's a lot of big a energy. It is.
And honestly, because everyone else just encapsulated
everything very nicely, I'm going to go with what I said in
the last one, which is a gay cliches worth of big gay energy.
Because I mean. Is it not so?
Accurate. All right, so that ends our
spoiler free review of Iris Kelly Doesn't Date.
At this point. We're going to dive into the
book and go into all the things you like, didn't like, and
wanted to scream about. So if you want to avoid
spoilers, turn this off. Go read it, maybe talk about it
in our discord, I don't know. And then come back and listen to
this. If you're here for the book,
keep on listening. Let's get into it.
All right. So I'll go first.
So I think I like. So I like Ashley Ashley's
writing a lot. I think she's a very good writer
and she does a good job of like capturing her, like characters,
voices. So like, having read all the
books like Iris is a very different, like, point of view
to read, which I really enjoyed, 'cause, you know, we'll get into
Iris, but something I wanted to quote that I really enjoyed.
So in the book, Iris is basically like about to launch
her first novel, and it's a romance novel.
So she's like, which is new in this book.
So she's stepping into like, that arena.
And so in the beginning, she like, is, as the title says, is
not dating. So she's kind of talking about
like, romance a little bit in her inner monologue when we
first like, meet her And she says to herself, because if she
was being honest, romance novels were a fantasy.
I just want to see what you guys thought about that quote, 'cause
I thought that was really interesting, A, coming from a
romance novel writer. And then B, like Iris's
headspace at the time, where she's like all relationships are
doomed. I think it's actually kind of
true, because in a way, like that's why people read things,
like it's just escape their life.
And that's the big appeal of romance novels, that you do get
to see these play out. You know that.
I mean, most times everything has a happy ending, which is why
I was a child who was just like, I don't want happy endings.
And my favorite movie was an ending that had a terrible
ending, and I was a very disturbed child.
Anyway, that's not the point of this.
So you're trying to escape your life, and you want that fantasy,
that someone to sweep you off your feet, ride off into the
sunset. Why we're riding into the
sunset, I don't know, but it's bright, it's romantic, Caitlin,
and it's great. Where do you get skin cancer?
No, I'm totally I I'm with you on that.
I thought that like this, like, while it's being said by
somebody who's clearly jaded from romance.
Like it is kind of true, like, But I found it ironic having
read the other books because Iris is so the other books are
about the first ones. Delilah Green doesn't care.
And the second one is Ashton Parker doesn't fail.
You can see it. There's a title scheme the way
Ashley writes. But it kind of falls around
Iris's friend group. So there's Claire and Ashrid,
and they make appearance like everybody makes appearances
throughout the book. So it's like 1 Universe, but the
book focuses on one of them. And so I think it's ironic that
she's saying this too, because like, as she's saying the inner
model. Like, she's like, yeah, sure.
Both of my friends had these romance novel basically because
they were a book. Exactly.
So, like, the irony of irony is for her to say this is like, I
literally watched it happen not once, but twice.
So she has two nickels for this. And like, here she was being,
like inspected a lot. But it's weird that it happened
twice, right? Exactly, like literally.
So I thought it was kind of ironic and funny, but also
truthful. Like I like this quote a lot.
So isn't that basically like? In a way.
Breaking the 3rd wall or 4th wall.
This book is super meta. Like by freeing her as a romance
novel writer, it quote breaks the 4th wall a lot.
There's a part later where she's like, I really don't like
writing the third act where they break up and then like 3 pages
later they break up. So like, yeah, it was very meta.
I was laughing at that. And if you go back through our
other episodes, you will see that that's a thing that I
really like in media. So yeah, maybe that I don't know
why I like yeah, why I like this.
I love this book, actually. I know you're going to like this
one when the first, like, starting to read it.
I know this isn't the actual discussion thing right now, but
I was like, oh shit, am I going to like this?
And but once I started actually, like, learning the characters
and figured out that it was two different point of views because
that took me way too long. Oh my gosh.
I'm not good at that. Especially if it doesn't say
that it's sticky. Yep, I agree.
I forgot what I was talking about.
You like the meta Ness, I guess. But yeah.
And then I ended up just loving the book and and then I was
like, oh, that was a good book. And then as a week or two went
on, I was like this book actually made such a big impact
on me, 'cause I can like remember full scenes vividly.
And that's not normal, especially when I read, Yeah,
no, there's no movie adaptation. So like, yeah, that is saying
something for you in particular, Caitlin, that I like stuck with
you like that. I'm happy to hear that.
Yeah. I really loved it.
It was very good. I I really enjoyed it.
I I actually ended up having like I don't have very good like
reading comprehension when I read stuff myself.
So I actually read this with my partner.
So my partner read most of it out loud to me and then we would
were like making notes and like talking about it together.
And we both actually ended up really enjoying this.
But one of the things that we were kind of both hoping for at
the beginning of this was that Iris was gonna actually end up
being on the ACE spectrum because it just in the beginning
of it or like the aromantic spectrum specifically.
And we were because it of how much she was like trying to not
trying. But she was saying like, I this
doesn't feel right. This has never felt right.
I've never wanted to be in a relationship or thing or she's
like very hard for her to want to now be in a relationship.
I guess is a better way of putting that.
But then, of course, as the book went on.
Stevie and Iris are adorable. And I'm very happy with how
their relationship ended up playing out.
And there's also like a mental health thing that comes along
that like is added to this, which I kind of want to talk
about later, but it so it's a good thing it wasn't an Arrow
ace type situation due to like the mental health aspect.
That's. That comes up in the book and I
enjoy. So I'm glad you brought up the
arrow a stuff because at one point in the book by Cole,
excuse me, at one point in the book that comes up, I think
Stevie asks Iris like, oh, do you think you're like on that
spectrum, like a romantic because of the way you're so
abhorrent to romance? And I like that Iris has the
thought where she's like I could easily say that because like
yeah I have all the a lot of these features it all comes from
the trauma and stuff. But she's like I'm not I'm not
going to Co-op somebody's identity.
So I like that line that's in there specifically about that
because you could easily kind of read her like that like you're
saying. So I like that the author like
clarifies Yes, no we're not Co opting identity is like she just
has trauma. Yeah, yeah.
And I'm glad they. Also, sorry, I was just going to
say I'm glad they also discussed that there is trauma around it.
Like, it's much as like trauma is is not good, of course.
But I'm glad that they brought it up and they kind of went into
it and discussed it a little bit more, for sure.
I have something to say about that scene, but I have no idea
where it is in the outline. So we're going to talk about it
later. Sorry.
All right. So Speaking of book, the scenes
in the book. OK, Another quote that I really
liked. So in the beginning, basically
Iris is with her family. They're her family, man.
They're very interesting. But anyway, there's a lot of
this, a lot of friction comes between Iris and her mother, and
one of the things that I like, not like, but I think that
encapsulate, that is the quote. Oh, honey, Maeve said, looking
at her with those big, you poor thing eyes.
No one is fine by themselves. Look at Claire and Astrid.
They're happy now, aren't they? Iris frowned.
Just because they have partners who make them happy doesn't mean
they weren't happy before. And I like to call this the
Alice Osmond theory. Osmond.
Sorry, the Alice Osmond thesis. Because this is the whole point
of heart. Stopper.
Because often times in media, because media is not real life
like we need to just OK, I wish it was sometimes.
Sometimes it's escapism. But often time the message
especially like Disney stuff. I use Disney cause like Disney's
a classic like the Princess meets the Prince lives happily
ever after just 'cause they met. So there's this like
reinforcement in media that like, yes, once you meet your
person, that's it, all your problems are solved happily ever
after. But, like, you could be happy
before and like, not happy after.
Like there's a whole combination of things that can happen.
So I like that Iris has this perspective where she's like, I
don't need a person to complete me, which is basically that
thesis. Like, yeah, having that person,
if that's something you want, like adds, can add to your life
like in a multitude of ways. But like, it's not the thing
that like, defines your happiness.
And so, like, that's like this like old school thinking versus
new school thinking kind of that's happening with like her
mom and Iris, that like, Iris cannot get her mom to understand
where she's coming from when when she's like, I'm fine being
by myself, Like if the right person comes along, they come
along. But like, I don't need that to,
like be complete and be happy. So I like this.
But this thinking is the reason why some people think that they
need to be with someone and that's why they keep picking
people that aren't good for them.
And I've seen so many relationships where it's just
like, it's so not even abusive, but just like not good.
Like, they're not happy. They think they are, 'cause
that's what they should be. Totally.
But it's really making them more miserable and destroying their
life. Yeah, like, it's like, nice
sentiment but can be toxic. Like, you know what I mean?
Like this. Like it's causing toxicity here
when like it it it it's meant well.
But like, you know, one thing I do like about the parents,
though, just to throw this in there, 'cause there's a lot of
stuff not to like about these parents, the the PDA that I'm
going to talk about in just a second.
But I did honestly really like the fact that the parents
actually set Iris up with multiple gender.
Oh yeah, like suitors. So I did like that that they
were being supportive. They were doing it unnecessarily
over the top. And like.
Just way too much. But I did like that.
They were supportive, they didn't quite understand and
they're just like what is happening.
But they were there. They were giving like they were
giving her options in all of the categories.
So they were annoying in regular parents way not annoying in the
homophobic parents, correct. Yeah, yeah, this is a gap.
This isn't CAF the series. They were trying to force her to
marry a man she doesn't like. They were forcing her try and
marry a bunch of people of many genders that she didn't like.
They're like, oh, we really? They're like, oh, we really like
this guy. Oh, but you don't want to be
with him. OK, how about this girl that I
found on the street, my hairdresser, She had blue hair.
I figured she was queer. Would she be right there?
My mom was right. But yeah, I know.
It's like it's one of those things.
Like it it they. Meanwhile, it's not that they're
trying to be malicious, but it's like they're not listening to
Iris really. When she says how she expresses
how she feels. And like, they're like, yeah,
whatever. And then they just keep doing
what they think is best. It's literally the gap that Sam
and her grandmother dynamic, but like in a Less.
Homophobic way, Like, yeah. And so then about the the
parents and their PDA. So, like, it's it's great and
all for parents to have like, a healthy sex life.
That's fine. Just.
Don't. Do stuff in.
Front of your kids, it's the adults.
It doesn't matter. No one wants to see it,
especially about them. Like.
What are you doing? Just stop touching each other.
I think I blocked it out. What happened?
We're just making out constantly when there's ass grabbing and.
Yeah. Sexual into windows, like I
think some things are fine. Just like show that.
Like, no matter like what you you're still in love.
Like, like occasional, like holding their hand or like
giving them a nice hug or like kissing.
But like, making out in front of your children aggressively,
aggressively is slightly. I'm assuming that was the
description I this is when. OK, so this is the first chapter
of the of the book, I believe. And This is why I was like, I
don't know if I'm gonna like this book, 'cause I didn't like
the family, I didn't like all the dynamics.
So this is, I was like, shit, what am I going to do?
I have to read this whole book. And then once we got this TV, I
was like, Yep, OK, we're good. Well, like the parents go away.
They're there for like a SEC and like A and like they're brought
up like very briefly. Yeah, they're not.
It's not the whole book is. No, it's not to get her to date
somebody, right? I.
Do. Go sorry.
I was just going to say the they they brought a suitor to this
first meeting. I think it's.
Zach or something? Oh.
Zach. Zach.
Poor Zach. Never had a chance.
Poor dude this was. Probably one of my.
Favorite scenes in the early part of this book was just Iris
being a complete shit to him. Like just.
Being a. Dick.
And it's like, oh, so we're going to get married and we're
going to get engaged, like, right now?
And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, what are you talking
about? Like, OK, Sorry.
Goodbye. And then this.
Yeah, that poor guy. Because, like, I see where she's
coming from because she has to deal with this all the time from
them. But at the same time, I feel
like she could have just, like, talked to Zach and be like, hey,
my mom does this all the time. I know nothing's going to
happen. Do you want to help me just,
like, freak them out a little bit?
Could it have been nicer? I guess so, yeah.
But it was. But then would it be Iris Kelly?
I think that no. Yeah, she needs to just go.
I do love. Was it at the end of that
chapter of, like, her? Just, like proposing to him or
something? Like, I laughed my ass.
Yeah, whatever. I was just like, what the hell
are you doing? I'm just like, of course, that's
one way to get rid of him. It was so funny.
So Alex, my partner, was like, that's one way to end a blind
date. Super subtle.
I mean, it worked. She made her point.
We did. That was very funny.
Speaking of dates, so Iris ends up meeting Stevie at the gay bar
Lush Lush and you have to do a SH on the end and then they try
to have a like a one night stand and it does not go well.
So what was your first reaction to this disaster of a hook up
that these two had? First of all, Stevie just like
having to be like forced into doing this and like going to
Iris, I just, we'll get into Stevie's world later.
But I just, I love that part. And then, I mean, all I really
remember is, you know, the big part of when she throws up.
And it's just, it's not something you expect to happen
in a romance novel. I mean, ever.
I'm assuming it's realistic, like I've it's not like it's a
little dramatic, but it's not like completely out of out of
line for someone with anxiety. Anyway, yeah, I mean from
Stevie's point of view, but from Iris's point of view, what the
fuck? Was this?
Like, yeah, I do love that they do have the conversation later
because she's just like, what did I do?
Is it? What?
Am I that gross? Yeah.
Like what? Like, you don't know.
Up until that point, she doesn't know Stevie.
So, like, this was out of nowhere.
OK, cool. He just, like, threw up at me.
Great. I love that it wasn't perfect,
and I love that they went to such an extreme for it that it
kind of because you use romance novels to like, escape.
It wasn't like you were escaping in this one.
It was just. Like, this is like a the worst
case scenario that could happen right now.
Oh yeah, that's why I like it. Yeah, I I don't know, I.
I I loved it. I thought it was so funny, but
in a a a bit of a cringy way. Like it was kind of painful to
be like AI don't know, almost a bystander to cause.
Witnessing this in a way, 'cause as a reader, we kind of are
bystanders. Bystanders.
That's how I felt watching the entire show of Glee.
Like a bystander. No, like the cringy.
Like, I love it, but it's OK. Continue.
I don't know. I just, I feel like I could
relate a little bit too much to the like how anxious that, like
Stevie was in this situation. Of like not trying.
To be this other person while talking to somebody that's super
attractive to them and and trying to come off as like suave
or like cool, and while they're really just freaking out inside
and while I've never thrown up on anybody I like, there's
always time. I hope not.
I hope I'm done. With trying to figure that stuff
out. But like it.
It's just, I don't know. It's so relatable with like, the
amount of anxiety and trying so hard to be chill and just
failing miserably at it. Yeah, so Stevie put on a persona
called Stefania, which is actually her real name.
Her name? So, yeah, so.
Let's just talk about later and I'm just like, that's what you
chose out of everything. You just chose to use your
actual name. Well, she's not lying then,
that's true. But she still forgets to say
Stefania. And so, like, this is how I'll
go, who's like, so easy to talk to people.
Yeah, they didn't go well for her, obviously, But the Iris.
Iris just seemed a little not desperate.
But it was just like, you know what?
I'll go with it. Right?
You're cute. Whatever.
Just shut up. Stop talking.
Don't throw up again. Yeah.
What was it before? Throw up.
Yeah, yeah, that's true. But it is.
It was actually very cute. With the two of them, though.
I mean with Iris like kind of trying to take care of Stevie
after the throw up incidents. So I don't.
Know. I mean that's surprising when
you're. Oh, for at least it was
surprising to me because like even in the other books you
don't know a heck of a lot about Iris.
Iris like is is constantly we get into it in this book, but
she's putting on it. She's putting on her own persona
as well as like being this loud, unbreakable person like who's
funny and like that kind of stuff, like to protect herself
so and to have that be how you're introduced to Iris.
And then in this moment she doesn't say anything.
She just takes care of Stevie and is like, do you need water,
Tucks her into bed. She's like, I'm leaving like to
have her be like a caretaker in that scene was like not what
you'd expect. At least I didn't from like what
I know about Iris, like going into the book, which is like,
she's like, oh, I have to you know, fuck romance, fuck all
this shit like, And here she is being caretaking.
So like that was. It's interesting to see her do
that in like that moment with a stranger.
She doesn't know. But that's how you know
something is going to happen. Because she was being too nice
and too sweet after a disaster of an incident.
Yeah, I feel like it's kind of being a decent human being,
though, being like, all right, let me just make sure this
person, because she did make her exit as quick as possible.
Oh yeah, She's just like, I'm not sticking around all night,
but I'm leaving. Like, just, I'll set you up,
clean things up and get out of here.
It's like the typical thing. Not typical.
It's just what I know of. If someone takes your friend
back home drunk, unlike the other person is like, all right
here, get in the bed. Here's a trash can.
Take these pills If you need to throw up in the trash can.
I'll be in the. I'll be in my room.
Let me know if you need me. Yeah, but that's like, you know
that person. She does not know Stevie.
Like she was going over there to have a random hookup and like
the random hookup didn't hook up with her, just threw up
basically at her feet. Like she didn't owe Stevie
anything. She could have been like, I'm
leaving and just left because like ill.
But like she was the decent person in this, you know, which
is contradictory to like the bravado Iris that were like
introduced to it could have been worse.
OK, so it could have been Stefania trying to top for the
first time and just throw up. Right on her face.
For sure. Which is disgusting.
Just made cold. Oh no.
I'm really good at making situations worse.
I remember how I said I was a disturbed child.
Yeah. Now you're now you're an adult.
All right. So Speaking of nothing, what did
you think of Iris and Stevie's relationship overall?
I personally, one of the elements I like, I like that in
the beginning, the first thing they do is basically trauma
bond. Like that is the first thing
that happens. Between the two and.
When they actually start talking to each other.
That is in fact a. Key staple in a lesbian
relationship, so it's like a checklist.
Trauma, bonding and. Check.
I think that's a staple in basically every relationship.
Oh, Fiora, I think your camera's telling us something.
What's it doing? I think it was a thumbs up.
Cool. But yeah, like, you bond with
friends, like, and especially in the LGBTQ community, a lot of
things we have in common are things that are traumatic.
So I feel like that is like a good thing.
Or like, you're in a situation that is traumatic and that's how
you're bonding. So I think that's unfortunately,
it's a great way to bond with people.
Yeah. Other queers, that's, that's how
you get to know someone right off the bat.
Just here is all of my information.
Yeah, that's what I do. That's why my nickname used to
be and probably still is over share actually it's over share
America, but the Americas for the international people
continue. All right.
Something else I love and they're dynamic is so like I
mentioned earlier. So part of Iris's kind of like
persona I I guess is like using humor as a defense mechanism.
So like anything something times something gets too real.
She'll start like making jokes to like protect herself and like
change the subject and add levity into the situation.
What I love about it though as well, like, that's her status
quo. Stevie responds to it really
well and it actually works to calm Stevie now.
And Stevie's getting anxious, so I do.
I love that. Like, even in their natural
states, like with Iris's like innate defense mechanism, it
actually works to calm Stevie when she's, like spiraling.
And it like, forces Stevie when she starts laughing, like really
laughing. It like, gets her out of her
head. And it kind of like, you know,
gets her to like, maybe take those anxious thoughts less
seriously. So I like that it becomes like
this coping mechanism kind of like together, Like Iris makes
her laugh and then she calms down.
And like, so I like that dynamic between the two because it felt
very natural because that's just like part of Iris and then
anxiety is part of Stevie. And so like to have that be like
another bonding point with the two of them I think is really
cute and just it felt authentic like and it kept coming up
throughout the book. I really like that.
And the fact that. It helped and didn't hinder the
growth of their relationship too.
Speaking as someone who has severe anxiety, and I think it
is severe enough to like, it affects me in ways I don't even
know anymore. I think comedy is really good
way to ease anxiety because when I'm meeting someone new, I feel
like, oh, do they like me? Are they OK?
Like, what's going on until someone makes a joke And then
I'm like, OK, I can. Relax.
And I'm wondering if maybe because I know, like with
comedy, like comedy shows, I feel like there's no anxiety.
So I'm wondering if just like comedy in general eases anxiety
or if it's just for the individual.
I don't know. That's a good question.
I don't know, 'cause I also, I also have anxiety and I don't
know if I've ever. Thought of it.
I don't know. That's something I I'm, I'm
going to take a look, 'cause I don't know if it makes me angry
when someone tries to, like make a joke or like, fix something
with comedy. I don't know if it.
Makes me angry, if it helps. So I'll have to, I'll have to
think on that as well. I mean, I use comedy as a coping
mechanism. I know that.
But. As long as it as long as you can
see if the other person's responding well to it and like,
shut up if they're upset about you.
Because like, there's there are people who use way too much
comedy and stuff Like just be serious for like 5 seconds, OK,
I can do too much. Yes, OK.
I'm. I'm just.
Which is what happens with the iris, too, where they're like,
enough with the jokes, like, be serious for a minute.
So yeah, some people can like, take it too far when it's like,
yeah, they're using it as defense mechanism themself.
But like in moderation, like in this book, like, it worked to
like calm both of them down, basically the humor.
And I think it's, it's good at like the the beginning of things
just to like, yeah, it's an icebreaker too.
It's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who doesn't?
OK, Yeah, I agree. Glad.
A lot of the things that I liked about Stevie and Iris was just
the the time that they spent alone together and how they both
really opened up to each other. And this is for the scene on
page 144. I really love that when Stevie
was explaining how she has never had casual sex and she kind of
feels shame from that, Iris actually tries to reassure her
by telling her about Claire, who I'm assuming is in one of the
other books, who was engaged to the first person she had a
sexual relationship with. But then she goes on to ask
Stevie if she ever considered that she may be demisexual or on
the a spectrum. And so I found it.
And this, this is what I especially like, because it
casually throws in these other labels that aren't commonly
thought of because it's just not in representation of media right
now. And so it helps with that
visibility, and not only with people who identify with one of
these labels, but also to the people who may identify to a
similar situation as Stevie and didn't even consider that these
could be possibilities for them. Because, like, if you haven't
heard about it, if you don't know it's out there, then how do
you know to look into it? Yeah, I agree.
Side note, if you want to know what happened to Claire, go
read. A lot of the green doesn't care.
I guess I just have to read the other two, because you've
already been spoiled if you've read this.
Book I. Know everything.
That. And then I was like, do I,
Should I read? Yes.
Well, OK. I have opinions about the other
books. We can talk about that later.
But yes, read Delilah. Everyone taking a drink.
We're hydrating for lesbian Jesus.
Cole. She's read all the books.
Lesbian Jesus. Yeah.
Where do you think these romance novels come from?
She's like the muse. Thank you Lesbian Jesus.
Thank. You.
Oh yeah, no, It's from Kimmy Schmidt.
Oh. And if you're listening on our
YouTube, you could actually see the OR watch Kimmy look up like
Titus Kimmy Schmidt prayer thing.
It's hilarious. OK, I was like, I don't think
that was Kitty. Is this the first time Thior's
Dennis did an episode? And I just I've done it before.
Yeah, so it's a. Common thing.
And now I think I need to watch a show.
You would like it. Actually, it's it's just a
comedy, all right? Now I really have to watch it
because theora's pretty good at figuring out what I'll like and
like what I won't like. So I take her recommendations
very seriously, especially with you all.
Yes, if Theora says it, it is the word Theora's now the Bible.
Lesbian Jesus. Told me so I'm.
Pretty sure if we could make that a song replacing the other.
Yeah, whatever. I'll, I'll talk about that
later. Speaking of conversations that.
Yeah. In this book.
So similar to the other point I just brought up and I mentioned
it already, I love that they could have real conversations
together. So it wasn't just surface level
they were really getting because some of their conversations with
their friends were surface level.
Like, they never really got down to how they're feeling, but the
two of them, even for just having met, were able to really
talk. And I mean, that goes to the
trauma bonding. But yeah, they were just able to
talk. And so after the conversation, I
just talked about, Stevie gets the idea for Iris to basically
give her sex lessons because, you know, that's that's a normal
place to go with your brain for research.
This is all for science, Caitlin.
Yes, let's say, and I remember doing stuff like that in college
for research. Like, I wish something.
I wish I had a friend to research.
I definitely did not do this. I didn't do research with
people. No, I just went for it.
I did research science on Google, which is not the best
way to or. We definitely used Google too.
It was it. Was a.
Google I am I do relate to Nick, Sam and Nick.
Oh my God, Sam. A dumb ass.
Definitely on Google, Yeah. If you haven't checked out Gap
the series on YouTube, go to Listen If you liked this, you
might like Gap the series. It's it's funny.
It's not fake dating, but there's a lot of trauma bonding.
If you're a fan of trauma bonding and romance, go check
out Get The Series and queer friend groups.
It's kind of like this. It's just not fake dating, yes.
Or a book that is a book that is a book.
Anyway, back to this book. Back to this.
Book. So Stevie wants sex lessons.
And it really, I think these were more confidence lessons in
a way, because that is really what Stevie wanted to be.
And Iris exuded confidence. Like, Oh my gosh, I have the
confidence of Iris. Seriously, just a little bit of
that sell that shit girl you make.
Yeah, they just a little bit sprinkle it around.
And when you're extremely anxious, you are especially
gonna be less confident with sex.
At least this is my opinion. We'll get The amount of stuff
I'm about to say in this episode is ridiculous anyway.
When you're extremely anxious, you're especially going to be
less confident with sex because it makes you even more
vulnerable, which causes more uncertainty and insecurity.
You We'll get more into the mental health stuff later, but
the fact that Stevie was even willing to ask Iris for help?
To figure out sex just shows how comfortable they are with each
other. Because that is a first of all,
that is a weird thing to ask. Absolutely.
I'm surprised Sam didn't do this and get the series come.
On. I'm gonna need some lessons.
What? Mon's not the right person to
ask for lessons. Did I say no, no, no.
That would be Sam to Jim. And Jim is like, Oh, yes, Jim
would be the one that would offer sex lessons anyway.
We can bring that. We can bring that into a Gap
series because I know, like the Iris Kelly people probably
haven't seen. I'm so sorry.
Yeah, they're just a lot of parallels, just to keep it.
But yeah, we'll try to. I'll try to explain what that
means. Jim is like somebody who is like
very, very is married to a guy but is very after Sam.
Yes, she's she's going to have a kid too.
Yeah. So that very obsessed with Sam
for some reason. So probably a gay reason, but
anyway. Yeah, back to the book.
Back. To the book.
So this is also an interesting dynamic to which is it's kind of
related to the anxiousness and the like confidence and and
stuff like that. So it's.
I think so. It's interesting dynamic with
one, which is Stevie having gone to therapy while the second
person, Iris, in this situation has not.
But as someone who has been to therapy, Stevie was able to help
Iris breakthrough some of the emotional trauma that she needed
to unpack with, like the romance lessons.
While Iris was able to help Stevie with things you shouldn't
do with a therapist. For example, you do not have sex
with your mental health therapist.
It is not a good idea You're seeing them in a mental health
therapist. I said specifically to avoid.
But if you're seeing them in a professional capacity, now, if
you are dating not your therapist, but is a therapist,
do what you want. I mean, that's as long as
there's consent. So then the other thing that it
was really, really nice to see in this book was the many times
that enthusiastic consent was brought up in this.
So everything, any kind of spicy scene that happened there was
always like, is this OK? Are we OK with doing this?
And that was super, super important, especially since this
was a very much like and Iris brought this up too.
It was very much like. I don't want to.
Push you to do anything you don't want to do Stevie like.
You. Are you are like whatever you
want to do and however far you want to go let me know I'm OK
with all of this to to a point I think she was.
But once you say no we're done like and this is all on your
timeline this is all on you like to say that you wanted to do
more or do less so and then she of course Stevie was also asking
Iris along the way if things were OK as well.
So it wasn't just while you're fixing your camera.
Yeah. I really did like that because
it's like very from the beginning like you have to be in
charge like and in a way that's that's basically Stevie's first
confidence lesson because she has to be able to ask for
something and it's just it's it was a great aspect of this
relationship because it's it was a situation that really could
have turned South. And by that I mean like not like
abusive but like taken advantage of.
But because of this, they set clear boundaries in the
beginning by doing that, Yeah, I'll say that, like the reason
the gap comparisons keep coming for me because like, especially
when we're talking about this, like like the beginning, like,
because it's about control. So it's like a similar thing
where it where Iris recognize that Stevie spirals.
When Stevie doesn't feel in control, it's part of the
anxiety triggers when like, things are changing and Stevie
doesn't feel like her world is controlled.
That's when she starts spiraling.
Really so, right. But the other aspect of it, to
go back to what you were talking about Caitlin, about like their
relationship specifically. Part of why, like Stevie feels a
lot of shame when it comes to sex in particular, is because
Stevie was in a controlling relationship with Adri.
And we'll talk more about Adri and Stevie in a bit, but I just
wanted to bring that up because all she knows is being in a
controlling relationship where she's the one being controlled.
So she doesn't know how to take control.
So Iris gives her a safe space and like her own timeline to
take the control. And once Stevie starts actively
doing that, we kind of like I through, like inner monologues
or conversations with her friends.
Like Stevie comes to recognize how important that is for her to
have control because then she's not anxious and like, then she
can act the way she wants without like spiraling because
it's to contrast that with like the first hook up.
Like, yeah, she wanted the hook up, but like, did not feel in
control and it immediately spiraled and then ended up
vomiting. But like that starts to go away
once Stevie steps into her own power and like, learns how to,
like, take control in a healthy way.
You know, I just, I just love it because like how you said the
safe space, they really were each other's safe space.
Totally. And it's just.
I just love that because I love seeing the scenes between the
two of them, you know, when all the other.
Outside factors weren't there. Affecting them?
Yeah. Oh boy.
Got more to? Discuss in this, yes.
Speaking of Speaking of safe spaces, let's talk about the
Empress. So the Empress, what is it?
Empress was a queer institution in Portland, a safe space, A
community, a home for many. The Empress specialized in queer
interpretations of classics gender bent, swapped and
inverted, as well as trans, lesbian, gay by pan, ace and
arrow, character arcs woven into familiar CIS head plot lines.
Where is the Empress in my life? Yeah, definitely be in Castro.
If it was for real, why is that not there?
That's where it should be, Yeah. Seriously, go put it in Castro
because yeah, we'll take a field trip there.
Literally, this book came up when we were filming our High
School Musical the musical show thing because like we you talked
about one of the characters getting like a gender swapped
kind of like role and like boom. So like what did you think of
seeing like what that would play out with a whole like theater
just dedicated to that. What did you guys think of the
Emperors? I just, I love what it stands
for with queer takes on classics because the we've always existed
but we didn't exist in the media and theatre all the way back
then. I mean we did have males playing
females or Shakespeare for acting, yeah yeah.
However the proper way to say that was because I don't think
that was it anyway. So being able to see non binary
representation trans, even though I know that's like an
umbrella anyway, it was just it was very, very nice to see a
different take on it, 'cause like everyone does like the same
shows over and over, but like this one's different because by
changing the gender or the situation based on how you adapt
it, it changes the meaning of some scenes as well.
And it's very interesting to see.
And also I will take all the queer stuff.
Yeah, 'cause, like you're saying, like, that's why I
really love, if you've been in our discord, love, love, love,
love the retellings of, like, classics told from queer
characters. Because what you're saying,
Caitlyn, is basically it changes the point of view, right?
Which is why I like books like this that swap point of views.
Because once you change the point of view, you see something
different than if you were stuck with the same point of view.
So instead of looking at like the CIS het point of view of a
story, once you start changing gender and things like that,
like you notice like when you're watching Stevie kind of like do
Benedict you they they make comments the way like Stevie
changes the character and it's because Stevie is playing the
role, right. Stevie puts her own life
experience, her own point of view and like yeah, acting
skills and all that too. But she's putting her
interpretation on the character and it will morph the character
inevitably. So when even though you're
watching the same story play out, it's going to be different.
And you're going to, like you said, Caitlin, like the meeting
might change or like maybe the lesson is different or maybe
like you'll feel something different in a in a scene.
Like something that was supposed to be very harsh becomes like
soft and it and and it gives you a different perspective and way
to interpret something. So I really enjoy things like
this in general. And I love reading books like
this. Wasn't first kill kind of like
Romeo and Juliet? Yeah, no, that's exactly what it
was. It's a Romeo and Juliet
retelling, but it's two women and and boy, boy does that
change things. That was just amazing to watch.
Go watch first. Kill if you can because.
Yeah, no, literally, that's what it is.
That's a queer retelling of Romeo and Juliet and like, which
I finally like Romeo and Juliet and like and you're adding like,
again, like people of color into that, which also changes it.
Like, that's all of those kinds of, like, not swaps, but like
all of those kinds of once you throw diversity into not throw,
but like add diversity into like classics, it will inevitably
change it and just and and it makes it a richer experience,
'cause then yeah, I'm watching the same story, but I'm, I'm
getting something different out of it.
And I I really enjoy that a lot. And like, there's a level of
comfort, too in that, 'cause you're like, I know the story,
so then I can pay. Like, for me, I could pay more
attention to the nuance that's happening with these changes,
and I personally get more out of it.
That's fair. Yeah, that probably.
I think, 'cause that was a that's the reason why I have a
better time reading fanfiction is because I know the
background, I know the characters.
So having the story be like something that I've already
watched or had to read even just for school or something, being
able to see like the changes because of the representation
added to it, yeah, I think that would be great.
And please someone, if you're listening to those, make this in
gastro, I mean, anywhere. But like, if it's in San
Francisco, I could just go visit Diora and we can go, you know,
do a bunch of videos there, yeah.
Should be fun. So one of the things that I
really liked about the audition process of this was that they
didn't set in stone. Who?
Like the gender or sexuality of the characters until they found
their actor. And I thought that was really
nifty. So it was they had the like they
had Benedict. Honestly, I don't know the show,
the actual story. I don't even know what story it
was like the play or whatever they were doing to do about
nothing. Yeah, right.
Yes, that's it. I don't know the characters
though, but I know Benedict 'cause you already mentioned
that. So Benedict was in there and
like it could have been played. By.
A a male. Or it could have been played by
a, like someone who was genderqueer.
It could have been played by a female.
They they did pick Stevie, I believe was for that one, right?
Steve's cast first 'cause it was really Nita Rickard, Stevie, the
best actor. No, Stevie was forced into this
role. Yeah, and he was forced into
playing Benedrich by Axe. But so whoever else, I don't
remember any other people in the cast, but it could have been
anybody. So they didn't have it set in
stone what gender or sexuality or or whatever.
And I thought that was really nifty.
And they they left them blank. What?
Because they talked about that too in the book.
They were like. Well, we don't.
We don't know. It's just whoever comes in and
fits the best that we feel fits the best for the show.
And we will make adjustments to pronouns and like different
things after the fact. And I really, really like that
because they're people and that's how you should be going
through life. Let them figure it out
themselves. Agreed.
Yeah, but. That would be nice.
So I would. Like a place like this to exist,
going back to what we were talking about before, but it was
very realistic that it was basically going out of business
because just like every lesbian bar that no longer exists.
Yeah, it happens unfortunately. And it would be so nice, but I
don't see it faring very well in our society.
I guess we need a big gay theater troupe too.
Just put it in the big a production company.
But they have to travel. They'll just it.
It'll be a travelling production and using theatres that already
exist. So they don't have to put the
money into the theater. You just hire.
You get hired to like put put on a production at a specific
theater and then move to the next one when that contract is
up. So Cole already has a business
model for this. So we're going to put Cole in
charge of that. And then we, we got, we got to
talk to Robbie because he has his own theater thing.
Oh, he does. So there we go, Airlock theater
company. And they do some interesting
shows. You'd have a lot of sorry, you'd
have a lot of business during pride.
I think you could really pride all year long.
That's our slogan, bringing pride to you.
All right. So Speaking of pride, it's one
of the things that's lovely in the book is queer friend groups.
So both Iris and Stevie have their own respective queer
friend groups, but they're very different.
At least they have very different dynamics.
So I just wanted to see how would you guys like kind of
compare and contrast the two groups.
For me, going into the story, I was much more familiar with
Iris's friend groups because that's literally like the all
the trilogy. And so her friend group at its
core is very like loving, supportive and they've known
each other since like high school.
So like, while Iris is like prickly towards them in this
book, it's because it's coming from a place of she's
traumatized right now and in pain and is like lashing out at
her friends. But ultimately her friends are
like a safe space for her and they are very loyal.
And like loving friends. Meanwhile, with Stevie, I feel
like Stevie has the more like complicated relationship with
her friend group because her friend group involves Adri, her
ex-girlfriend, like recent ish ex-girlfriend Vanessa, who's
like Stevie's best friend but is dating Adri like immediately
after they broke up, which is immediately.
Immediately, which is so fucked up.
That's the issue. Yes, I agree.
And then Ren, who's not in the incestuous love triangle.
What? Is like their friend, but Ren is
like the one who's I guess quote closest to Stevie when we start
the book because of all that, the break up stuff with the
other two. So it's kind of awkward but like
they're by the end they get back to what they get to a better
place. But Ren is the most one who's,
like, most consistent with Stevie.
I feel like Wren's overprotective.
I was gonna say so, yeah, but Wren is, like, aggressive about
it. And in a way that doesn't like,
it's not compatible with Stevie's anxiety, which I find
really weird because Stevie's always had this anxiety and
they've allegedly known each other for a very long time.
And so I thought what I thought was interesting is in Stevie's
monologue when Stevie's having a conversation with Wren.
Basically, Wren is trying to get Stevie to like go go to, you
know, go to the bar and like meet a girl, get over Adri, get
over Adri. And it's like kind of push Steve
cause like, I get it. Stevie has anxiety and like,
can't. NAV is has a hard time
navigating life and making decisions cause change is scary.
And Ren's like, you have to do this.
Like now we're never like, do it, do it, do it.
And so Ren's like almost too aggressive with getting Steve to
do this. And so in Stevie's monologue,
Stevie's like, you know, even though I don't want to do this,
like, it's so much easier for me to just say yes because then
that stops all of this. And usually Stevie's like, my
reflexes just say yes to get them to leave me alone because
they don't listen to me when I tell them I need more time.
Not right now. It's like they try, they they
try to, like, control Stevie, kind of like the way Iris's
appearances are are controlling her, like with the best
intentions. But still, it's like, it's not
what Stevie needs it. It, like, infantilizes her.
Or at the end, Stevie's like, wow, like you guys, you have to
trust me that I can, I'm an adult and can make my own
decisions and like you need to give me the space to do that
instead of like telling me what's best for me and trying to
push me into it. So I found that that friends
approaches to the two of them was very different.
And like, I feel bad for Stevie, like I feel like her friends are
too like too much for her sometimes and it like adds to
her anxiety in a way. That's what I was gonna bring
up, where Iris doesn't have great family, but her friend
group's amazing. And I believe Stevie's.
I think. I think so.
We don't, like, get a lot of Stevie's parents, but I think
there's like, it's implied that her and her mom have a good
relationship, I think. But we really don't hear a lot
about Stevie's parents or her childhood or things like that.
Well, I'm going to pretend like. Yeah, that's OK.
And. And her friend group is not
great. I seriously got angry every
single time her friend group was on the page because they were
not giving her what she needed. Ever.
They 'cause I know we talk about Adrian a little bit, but yes,
Adrian is Adrian. I was going to punch in the
face. Yes, OK, I would be fine if
Adrie just left, left Stevie's life, because Stevie doesn't
need Adrie, agreed. Adrie needs Stevie, apparently.
Anyway, not the point, but her friends?
Really. I think they care.
I think they think they care, but the way they go about things
is completely wrong. Like on page 314.
Oh my God, Iris, about Stevie getting the through the snow in
New York. I got so extremely pissed.
Like, I think I actually put the book down because I got so mad
and that and it was so wrong of Ren to do that.
They had no right to tell Iris that they have no right because,
like, obviously it's going to put a rift in their
relationship. Doesn't Ren want Stevie to be
happy? Like Stevie?
Obviously Stevie has to get to it at some point, but it's also
Stevie's decision if she decides that she doesn't want to go to
New York For Iris, yes, maybe that's not the right decision
for her. But it's up to Stevie to make
that decision, because if it's made for her, one, she doesn't
have control. Two, she will never know 'cause
you got gave, you took away her autonomy.
I believe that's the right way to say that.
And she will. There will always be like a What
if? Yeah.
Agreed. And like the other thing to add
to that, before you continue, think about how Ren found this
out. It was like Ren found out by
accident. It's like a Stevie told her, you
know, like, so, like, poor Stevie, Like Ren wasn't even
supposed to know this. It just happenstance that Ren
was in the right place, wrong place, wrong time to overhear
this, you know? So, like, already the control
was taken away from Stevie about telling people about this thing
that just happened, You know, it's kind of like they're her
friends. Don't trust her to make the
right decision. Because we see Stevie talk about
being like, I know that this is the best thing for me.
I know I need to do this. She was just trying to get the
confidence up enough to be able to make all these decisions
because it's a lot of decisions. And when you have anxiety,
decisions are so freaking hard because you know that so many
other things are going to change.
You know, like once you choose this, all these other things
will no longer be able to happen.
It's very definitive. So Stevie was going to make that
decision, but Ren took away the opportunity for Stevie to tell
Iris herself, and that's why it caused more issues.
Yep, agreed. So her friends are bullshit and
she needs to just stick with Iris and Iris's friends because
they're way more supportive. They show up.
They have great group chats, and she doesn't have to avoid them.
Like, I'm pretty sure Stevie tried to avoid her friend group.
If you're trying to avoid your friends, just cut them out.
Not big friend like your friends.
You should not have to avoid your own friends because that
means they're not friends. This once again feels like gap
with the friend group just adopting Mon, just like you're
ours now. Here's the yeah, yeah.
And it was so it was so nice in this book too, that the friends
were just like, come here, we will help you.
Kirk. Kirk is Ren.
Oh my God, you're right, God damn it.
And numb to the degree. Also like the overly pushy, like
you're doing this now, friend. Yeah, I will ask you for money,
but you don't see it is more likely to be one of Iris's
siblings because they're actually, you're right.
Oh my God, can we talk about? This.
Is that I just need to talk about this now.
Iris's brother is such an ass and I can't stand him.
I forget which one was just like you have to be like that and
like someone. I think her sister didn't even
show up for something at one point.
The middle sister, I think doesn't even show up to the book
signing. He's like, my kid is sick.
My kid is sick. Which, yeah, she's like, right,
You could have if you really cared about your family and
wanted to be there for them. Like if I wanted to be there for
someone, I would make sure that I was there.
I know. But then the brother comes to
the book signing at the end. He's like, all right, can you
have mom read your sex novel? And he's like, I'm like, have
you even read it? Why are you being such a Dick?
Like, he was just gross. I couldn't stand her brother
there was like, first of all, it's writing.
It's fictional. It's but.
And there was a scene, and I know this is so off topic, I'm
sorry, but Boy Meets World, where the mom ends up taking a
creative writing class with her son and she starts writing about
past experience, like memoir type.
And it was like sexual experiences.
And he had to listen to it and like, he started like freaking
out and be like, oh, you have to leave.
But then he realized, like, oh, no, this is what's like.
She loves doing this. She's good at this.
So he ends up being like, OK, yeah, you go mom.
And everyone else is like like trying to cover their ears.
And he's like, hey, that's my mom.
You've listened to her story and it's just like the support.
So oh, her. Yeah, it's just like it just
they support her writing. Stop being so negative at her
first. It's your first one, right?
Her first. This is happiest season all over
again. Oh my God.
But at least they showed up to they were supportive.
They they turned it around. Not, not in that first
conversation. They were all like, come on,
you've been working on this book for 10 years.
When are you gonna? No, when they finally got to the
book signing, yeah. And you know what?
That's when everything was all. Anyway, that's another
conversation. We'll talk about it anyway.
I love that movie. I know.
Cole. Is one of three in that opinion.
That's. Hateful.
Probably true. But.
OK. I have more stuff apparently
because I have a very high, high opinion.
No, I have a lot of opinions about this friend group
apparently. So now we're going to go to page
339. So Stevie does admit that her to
her friends friends that the relationship was fake And Adri
OK, there were reactions to this.
Adri is so confused why she did it.
And Ren is like, well obviously it was because you started
dating Vanessa da Adri and I'm like, first of all that's your
first thought. And then Stevie just shuts them
up and that's what I love. And that she and she tells them
that she didn't really do it because of them and then tells
Ren like goes to Ren is like you didn't help either.
And I just felt so proud of Stevie in this moment because
she finally got the confidence to tell her quote friends off
because it was always like they were puppeting her.
They got her to do or say things she didn't really want to do.
And now she is like, you think you know me, but you don't
because their friend group always thought that they knew
what was best for her. Oh yeah, but they never actually
had a conversation with her to get what Iris could out of her.
So everything they did was hurting her internally and not
making the anxiety better, not making her more confident.
I feel like she shut down more when she was around her friends.
I feel like they gave her anxiety.
They gave. They.
Had to to get anxiety to walk into your place of work to,
like, be like, are they gonna be there that day?
But so she gets the courage and she tells them, look, I know you
all love me. I do.
But sometimes you assume you know what's best for me before
even giving me the space to figure it out myself.
Dang. And that.
Hold on. And that is really the whole
issue, because when people are telling you who you are, you
can't figure out yourself. You're just like, OK, I guess
that's who I'm supposed to be and that's, that's not a friend.
You and having friends who've been like that find find
yourself a Theora because find better friends.
Yeah. I mean I just find people who
will lift you up and be like this might be going on but like
how are you feeling how what's going on in your head.
Here's the deal though I want now that you're bringing this
up. So to me it sounds like so in
her friend group like prior to the break up it seems like
Stevie was with Adrie who was controlling and then Ren who's
the controlling friend. So and I wonder if that at the
time made her less anxious because like there's less
variables if the friends are like do this or do that.
And like Adri's like we're doing this in bed, this and that.
And Stevie's like, well, OK, I I don't have to worry about the
what ifs like you're taking care of all these things.
So I wonder like if in the past that was like comforting in a
way because the environment was controlled and like that kind of
alleviated her anxiety. But once Adri was gone and then
that changed, I wonder if she started re evaluating all these
other things and being like, Oh no, you know, and Iris kind of
helped her figure out what she how to how to like step into her
power basically and like take control and like do what she
wants kind of thing a little bit more easier maybe.
And then now she's kind of seeing the friends and Adri in a
new light and is like, whoa. And it is now finally standing
up for herself. You know what I mean?
Yeah, I think maybe in the beginning of their friendships,
where she might need it more like hand holding, being taken
care of, 'cause, like, I know I get like that sometimes.
I need people to like look out for me and just I it sounds like
such a weird thing, but it makes sense.
But then they get into this routine of like, guiding you and
making sure you know, like, what to do, that they don't allow you
to grow. So, like, when you get past a
certain obstacle, they're still back and, like, trying to, like,
force you to go a certain way when you're like, no, I can do
this now. And like, actually, there's this
other thing I need help with now.
But they're still stuck on the one thing.
So they're like, that's our friendship.
Yeah. And that kind of sounds like
what happened to Stevie. Like, when we meet her in the
book is the point where she's trying to.
She's trapped in the controlling pattern with them and doesn't
know how to break out of it, but she's ready to break out of it.
And like, Iris helps her get there, basically.
Yeah. Because a friend's point of
view, Like, if all they know is the controlling relationship,
then then, like, they think what they're doing is right.
You know? I mean, yeah, they definitely
all think that they're right. I mean, I don't know how Adrian
thinks that. Yeah, well, about that.
But I mean, like Red. Red thinks what they're doing.
It's like I do see the intent behind it.
It's not malicious, but it acts that way.
Because yes, exactly. They don't know exactly what she
needs. And that part of that is that
they need to have that conversation.
But I think the friends shut her down so much when she talks that
it she's not able to get it out it.
No, that is exactly the problem. So that's what that is partially
why it takes 300 plus pages for Stevie to get to the point where
she's like shut up and listen to me.
Like actually listen. Don't just talk over me.
Yeah. So this is like her, her, her
story arc with her friends is basically a big transition
period that's happening, you know, and it's very needed.
And I'm just, I'm very proud of Stevie since I I mean, I just
relate to Stevie so much. So like, seeing the little bits
of confidence that she got to help situations made me feel
like, OK, well maybe I can just like blurt out that line instead
of keeping it inside and being so anxious about it.
Like just be slightly more confident and see where it gets
you. And I just, I love Stevie.
I feel protective. Of Stevie so I.
Understand. I I agree.
I What was I going to say? I don't remember.
So I'll say what I was what I wrote instead.
So on on the. Other hand, you have Iris's
friends who as you had mentioned, they are the sort of
opposite of Stevie's friends, but they're also the opposite of
Steve of Iris's family as well. So while Iris's family is super
like kind of similar to Stevie's friends, where they're just like
telling her everything she needs to do, when to do it, how to do
it, who to do it with. Iris's friends are they give her
so much space to give her almost too much space in certain
situations when she. Could.
Use a little bit more like I guess tough love in certain
instances, but they seem to only give that as the last resort to
a situation. So it kind of like blows up and
then the friends are like maybe this is what you need some
information about as opposed to like trying to nicely give some
information throughout the journey.
But so I just, I think it's interesting that they're like
the counterpoint to the family in this so.
Yeah, that's it. Not related, but kind of related
because you brought up Stevie's job earlier.
Caitlin, can we talk about the name of that coffee shop?
It was called Bitches Brew, which How on earth can you have
a commercial business that's called Bitches?
I could tell you one thing theor they're not getting a bank
account at Chase for sure. But also like how could you have
that cause? Like isn't there like city laws
where like you can't have swear words cause children could walk.
By it like. How is that the name of the
establishment? I'm just, I know Portland's very
liberal, but like. You know.
I don't know. I feel like I've seen another
company, like with words like that, I don't know.
I just feel like the city would be like, absolutely not.
You can't put a sign up there. It says Bitches brew.
Well, you don't know how they spell it.
It could be like an asterisk in it.
I mean, I feel like if that was the case, they would have wrote
it like that in the book, but it was the benefit of the doubt.
Theora Cole was embarrassed. They had to leave.
But yeah, no, I definitely. I feel like it would be hard to
do business. Maybe it's a silent W so it's
like witches. Oh.
My God. But anyway, I just thought that
was weird, 'cause like, I listened to this as an audio
book 1st and I was like, is that what I'm hearing?
And then I read it this time and I was like, yeah, that's what I
was hearing. OK?
Anyway, OK, I like the name so speedy of things that are
confusing. Let's get about let's let's
finally talk about Adrie. OK, so OK, Adrie and Stevie were
dating for like 6 years and then like the relationship kind of,
like fizzled out. Adrie is the one that broke up
with Stevie because Stevie would never have the courage to do
that at that point in time and then like 2 weeks later starts
dating Stevie's best friend Fidessa.
So. But then throughout the book,
there's like weird behavior between between Adrie and like
Stevie, and it's like this tensiony thing, like the whole
book. And so question is like, why is
Adrie still in love with Stevie? Like, what is going on with the
two of them? Well, first of all, I always
forget that Vanessa is Stevie's best friend because they are so
distant in this book. Yeah, no, I know.
They, like, never interact unless it's with Adrie.
And like, I get that lesbian or like queer group friend groups,
like they have dating in between them, but it doesn't seem like
they're able to keep the same relationships with the in
dating. I don't know what the right word
is for that. Incest.
The incest. I was trying not to say that
word. It is though.
It's just. In Group dating, Yeah, Yeah.
So it doesn't seem like that group of friends or you're able
to do it. I mean, honestly, most group of
friends can't really do it. They just try.
Anyway, I've never had that group, so I don't know.
It's gross. It's.
But yeah, it is weird that Vanessa is described as Stevie's
best friend. And then they like, never
interact, like independent. Very ever.
Never. I mean, it's always like Adrie's
always there. I mean, like it's never that
Vanessa came to visit Stevie on her own.
Never that. Never the way Iris's friends,
like, come on their own to see her.
That never happens. It's always Adrie's there, and
Vanessa is somewhere in the vicinity.
Because Adrie's there. I got the feeling that Adrie
still loved Stevie. My God, I was about to say.
Iris. That's.
The. Twist.
Because Adrie would though, or she just didn't want her to be
happy, which is very odd since she's the one who's in a
relationship. So like, I would get it maybe if
it was the other way around, but she had to be at least a little
bit in love with her, or just like have that like feeling of
just like still being in a relationship with her.
Because it pissed me off when they went on that retreat thing
and she switched the room to make sure there was two beds.
Like that was a asshole move. And that's what I think.
That's the first time. Like, Vanessa was like, OK, this
is weird. And then started really looking
into it. I wish we kind of got to see
them fight about it more. Me too.
Because that would be very interesting.
Or maybe I don't. Actually.
I was gonna say a spin off book about the two of them, but I
don't want it to see Adri. I don't.
I don't want Adri anymore. I actually don't do it.
You know what? What about Adrias in the first
chapter? Vanessa is like, you know what?
Screw you. We're better off the guy.
You, Adrian. Because I want that.
And then Vanessa repairs her relationship with Stevie and she
ends up moving to New York. And then they all live happily
ever after and they go on a cruise or she goes back to
Hawaii and then meet somebody. No.
OK. That story.
But yeah, Adrie's gone in the first half.
The moral of this story is get rid of Adrie, because not a
great person, their relationship was crap too.
Like AJ. Adrie brought everybody down.
Agreed Adrie was a toxic person. In general.
Adrie's a controlling person. Yeah, which those are the people
you do not. Want.
Because you think they, you think that they're helping.
And like, especially because how long was ownership?
Three or four years. Six years?
Six years. Like it was over six years.
Right. Exactly.
So Stevie's used to being controlled.
So Stevie doesn't know anything else.
Stevie, like 6 for six years, she's being controlled by this
person. And this is how a lot of toxic
relationships are, I believe. It's like, you don't know it's
bad until you get out and you're like, oh, I can breathe.
So Vanessa Rudd, right? Yeah.
But the moral story is Vanessa Rudd.
Yeah. So I don't know.
I don't know if Adri was actually in love with Stevie or
if it was just Adri being Adri and me just not liking her
because everything she did and I get it, it is normal to ask your
friend to do you a favor, like be in the play.
But she was causing her to go backwards in her career.
And it the book talks about that and it was like Adria is going
to get what she wants when she wants it and was not going to
let anything else happen. Wasn't Wren?
Wasn't Wren the one that brought that up?
Yes. Yeah.
That. Because Ren was the advocate of,
like, Stevie, you need to get out of Portland, and Adri's
holding you back. Yeah.
Oh yeah. Ren was like, you know what,
Adri? Sucks.
They ever It's like everyone knows that Adri sucks.
No one has the confidence to kick her out of the friend group
yet. What is this friend group?
Everybody. Every each other?
No, it's not a friend group. It's a it's a high school clique
that has gone out of high school.
Yes, into the real world. And they're so codependent.
What a toxic codependency that they can't get out of it.
I agree. All right, Cool.
Was Adri in love with Stevie? What do you think?
So no, I don't think Adri was in love with Stevie.
I think that Adri was being possessive over Stevie and still
wanted to control what Stevie was going to do, who she was
going to see, where she was going and still wanted that.
Power over her that she had most likely the entire relationship
with Stevie and breaking up with her like everything has been
like control and power over Stevie.
And I think that Adrie losing that control, she did not like
that. She's not happy about that.
And So what? Did I put here and Stevie was?
Shy and insecure, anxious Adri was able to influence.
Her A lot. More When Steve Stevie was with
Iris, she had a newfound confidence and was less easily
swayed as she started standing up for herself.
So. Yeah.
That's those are my thoughts. OK, All right.
I have thoughts on this. So I think it's hard to say and
one of the reasons it's really hard to say is because we only
see the relationship between Adri and Stevie at this point
from Stevie's point of view and Iris's.
Point of view and. They're both biased in their
point of views. So from Stevie's point of view,
her like, you read her perception of Adri.
It's very laced with paranoia from the anxiety disorder she
had where she's always like she'll see Adri's behavior and
then start panicking on the inside about it.
So like her view of Adri is just, it's laced with anxiety.
So it's it's hard to say, like, what is actually happening when
she's with Adri because like she gets anxious right, which
nothing's wrong with that. It's just it's hard to see
what's true in that moment because she's, you know having
all these anxious thoughts. So that sways our perception of
Adri when Stevie's interacting with her 'cause we're we're
we're reading her inner monologue.
That's full of anxiety, right? And so because because Stevie's
having anxious thoughts, like if if Adri really is jealous and
still in love with Stevie, we don't see that from Stevie
because always sees anxiety, right?
Whereas Stevie's always like, oh, am I doing something wrong
like this and that cause which I assume was their relationship
and she's like falling back into like old patterns.
Which is why like when Iris is trying to be like, can you not
see what's happening? Stevie's like, no, because all
Stevie sees is anxiety, right? So our observations from Adri
already skewed from Stevie's point of view.
Then if you jump to Iris, Iris also is biased, right?
So she she's the one that like, seems to see the jealousy.
But. The problem with Iris as the
counterpoint to this is that Iris has feelings for Stevie.
So yeah, even if like, Adri is being a possessive friend, Iris
is going to interpret that as romantic jealousy because of her
position when it comes to Stevie.
So is it jealousy? Like, it's really hard to tell
from the two narrators we have, 'cause they're both very biased
in how they view Adri. So my personal read on this,
like sussing through all of this, is that in real life, when
you have very long relationships with people, six years, that's a
really long time to be with somebody.
Even if towards the end it's like not romantic anymore,
you're still like you said, Caitlin.
This seems to be a codependent group, like Adrian and Stevie
probably had a degree of codependence going on throughout
that relationship. They met when they were very
young. They were in college.
They came up with the Empress idea together, like they bonded
over. They had things in common,
right? And Adrie seemed to be the one
in control of their relationship.
And so through the course of six years, you get to know somebody
extremely well. And so six years with somebody
who has generalized anxiety disorder, like Adrie knew her
disorder very, very well. So the other way to look at it
too is that, like, all of a sudden Stevie's acting weird.
Like from Adrie's point of view, right?
Suddenly she has all this confidence.
And then she sees Iris, like somebody who you would think
would trigger a lot of anxiety. And Stevie, because Iris is
unpredictable, which somebody with generalized anxiety
disorder probably wouldn't like that, right?
If she knew Stevie. Well, she seems like she's
somebody who, like, I don't know, like does a lot of one
night stands. But Stevie doesn't do so.
It seems like this wildfire of a person just came into Stevie's
life. And so from Adri's point of
view, I think Adri thought they were being quote, protective of
Stevie because Stevie doesn't know how to say no, right?
Which we already know. And Adri definitely knows that
because like you said, call Adri, Adri.
When Adri gets what Adri wants, Adri's possessive Adri knows how
to play Stevie. So I think there's a level of
like, oh, she could take advantage of Stevie like I did.
So let me like, make this easier for Stevie.
So instead of them sleeping in the same bed, let me separate
them so like, Stevie doesn't feel pressured to do something
Stevie doesn't want to do. Because like Stevie was
mentioning, it took them over a year to, like sleep together for
the first time because of her anxiety disorder.
And Iris like, exudes sexual confidence.
I think. I think Adri was doing the thing
that Ren's doing, or they're not listening to Stevie.
And Adrie's like, I know you better than you know yourself.
I'm just gonna do these things to, quote, protect you without
talking to you because I know you so well.
So I think that's partially what Adrie was doing.
But yeah, I think that like in Adrie's, somebody like Adrie
seems very controlling, like giving up and giving up control
of something they don't like to do.
So I think they were just being controlling of Stevie.
I don't think they were in love with Stevie at all.
But it's hard to let go of somebody you're codependent
with, which is 'cause like if you get to the end, like with
the two of them at the Empress, like there really is no
resolution. With the two of them, it's kind
of like Adrie feels like. It almost feels like Adrie had
more to say in that last conversation.
But Stevie's like, enough and just walks away.
So I think it's like Adrie had a Adrie couldn't relinquish
control of Stevie, Like having had that for like 6 years, even
though Adrie's the one that ends it, Adrie's the one who, like,
literally starts dating somebody else the next day.
Like you know, I think it was a like that's what they're used to
and it was hard for them to like let go completely.
It had to be Stevie. That was like I'm walking away
from you. That's really fair.
I forget how we're getting points of view for the narration
because I'm just like not used to thinking about the narrator's
like, I've never really read multi point of views until we
started doing this book club and our, I believe our first book
club, a lesson in vengeance is when you even told taught me
about unreliable narrators. So I've never really thought
that way. So I'm glad you bought that up.
Yeah. I didn't like the first time I
read this like I was kind of like wow, OK, yeah, jealousy for
sure. But then when I really thought
about it, I was like really Stevie's language.
Stevie immediately goes into like, panicked in her monologue
and then Iris is into Stevie. And so like, yeah, like that's
why like point of view, changing point of view is is really fun
because like, yeah, your bias is going to sway everything.
So I mean that makes sense. And I and I don't want Adri's
point of view. I don't want to know.
I don't care. I don't care enough.
So I don't. Want the fan fiction?
Don't send me any of it. I don't want to know so.
What time we say don't send it to us.
I don't want it. But it's interesting.
Though. It kind of makes sense that
Vanessa and Stevie's relationship isn't stronger
because Adri is in the way and is kind of like putting this
wedge between the two really good friends.
So and so Vanessa's kind of taking a step back because she
doesn't want to get involved in this situation that's unfolding.
But also, what a shitty best friend to start dating your six
year ex immediately after you brought up.
That was really fucked. Up Get out of the friend group.
Basically is the see if you get new friends.
Yeah. Iris's friends.
They're right there for you. Or make new find new queers in
New York and like, make friends, make new friends.
But cuties, no, don't keep the old ones.
Keep the oldest Iris's friends. Keep the bright balls, friends.
Yeah. OK, anything else about the
Friends before we move on to, like, the big topic of the book?
No, I am ready for this new topic.
All right, What's the topic, Caitlin?
Take it away. It is about how mental health is
handled in the book. And I know I am personally very
I love to advocate for mental health in the media.
Just mental health. Talking about mental health in
general, I find it very, very important because everyone does
go through something, but because we're not talking about
it and is it's getting so much better that therapy is a common
thing to talk about like, oh, you don't have a therapist.
That is weird. But yeah, it's it's so important
because you know everyone has trauma.
There's something in your. Life.
And if you think you don't have trauma, you got to dig a little
deeper. It's there.
You just you just didn't blind. Yourself.
Just Anyway, that was just Cheetah Girl song big game
drama. No, I'm kidding.
I've never seen it. It's a great movie.
Maybe trauma for one of The Cheetah Girls who got cut.
But anyway, OK, it's an old movie.
So we, we've talked a lot about how Stevie has generalized
anxiety disorder and I'm about to go through a lot of stuff.
So just stop me if you want to add a comment because I have a
lot more go off queen. OK, So I mentioned before, but I
found Stevie's issues extremely relatable because I'm pretty
sure I was diagnosed with GED as well.
I they didn't say generalized, but I was like it is constant,
so constant. Yeah, actually, no.
I'm gonna do something else. Cat is like this math thing, I
believe. No.
Anyway, when I can relate to a character, I have an easier time
reading it. So I think that's why I've been
a lot more engaged with this book.
So on page 26, yes, I I made sure to write down all these
pages for you. Stevie talks about how saying no
is a really hard thing for her, and this is a quote from the
book. She could handle the little
stuff, but the big stuff, the stuff that caused disappointed
expressions and downturned mouths?
Yeah, she sucked at that part. Her anxiety would flare and
she'd spend the next week convinced her friends hated her.
She'd die alone and miserable and wasn't worth a damn to
anyone. And this paragraph, it's so
early in the book and I'm like, I feel sane.
So every word that is in Stevie's monologue I completely
relate to and every aspect of my life.
And theore definitely knows this.
I am constantly thinking about how what I do effects other
people and if it will make them upset with me, even with things
where it really shouldn't be a consideration.
Like, even with this podcast, I am worried about doing the
smallest things and making the wrong decision.
Like, poor Theora gets so many text messages of me just
freaking out because I'm like, what if we do this?
And like, what if people react like that?
And then I'm also, like, worried about how things affect the aura
when we're doing things like all the time.
I care more about everybody else than what it doesn't mean.
So I'm like, OK, you want to do it like this?
All right, we'll do it like that.
No consideration from me. And it does.
It causes a riff because then the other person's like, all
right, well, I'm doing everything now.
I and when you want the other person take control, it's just
it's hard when they're just like trying to people.
Please. Yeah.
So I do completely get why Stevie couldn't say no to Adri
and also had a hard time figuring out whether or not she
should take the amazing opportunity to go to New York
because yeah, she does have Iris now.
Like, yeah, that was new. Yeah, she has a whole new person
that it's going to affect. She wants to keep Iris because
Iris is her safe space. She's never felt this safe with
someone before. So going to New York, a
completely new city, there's. So do you think it'd be super
scary? Because it's very unique and
different. Like, oh, New York has many
variables. I New York is terrifying.
Like I have I get extreme anxiety when I went to school in
Philadelphia and walking down the street.
If I have to go to New York by myself, I it's even worse
because it's city is so huge. It's so crowded.
It's busy. You always feel like in people's
way. Like yeah, like I feel like
Stevie like that's a scary place to be.
Like there's just a lot of new variables that don't exist.
Important. Stefanio would come out.
I don't know if Stefani can handle it.
Like, he would be like and then like immediately get sucked back
in, right? Exactly.
Because that alone is scary. And then like to lose your
comfort person. That's a lot.
The unknown is terrifying. So of course you're gonna cling
to your safety net. And like, yeah, if Stevie
actually was able to talk about it with Iris, maybe they could
figure it out together. But she didn't want to risk
losing it yet she was waiting until last possible minute.
Because she's like, I want to stay safe.
I want my net as long as possible and I just and then
also like just it's hard to say no.
Like she really probably should have said no to not Ren Adri of
doing the part because she really didn't want to, but she
was going along with it. Luckily she did end up liking
doing it because like that is what she likes to do.
She was just hoping for bigger things.
But it's it's hard to say no to the people in your life who
you're friends with because. Friends with.
Because you want to be there for your friends, but you don't see
that your friends are really taking advantage of you because
they're not your friends. Anything to say about that
before I go to a new page? No, I totally agree with you.
Like, I think that Ren's overreaction to, like, Stevie
taking the time to process that decision was fucked up.
And I agree with everything you said.
Like, I'm I'm, I'm surprised Stevie adjusted to New York so
well when she got there because it is a being in a city is
overwhelming to begin with. Being in that city is incredibly
overwhelming. I mean, she did adjust well, but
like we just they did make sure to mention that she had
breakdowns all the time. And like she continued, even
though she was doing better, she still cried at nights.
And that that is very relatable because I moved across the
country by myself in the pandemic same time Theora did
actually wish we knew each other.
That would have made this move so much easier because you'd
have your safety net. But anyway, it's just it's so
relatable to just 'cause everything's overwhelming.
And so, like all your anxiety during the day, it just at
night, it just like that lets out because you're all alone.
You have way too much time to spend in your head and it's like
all of the overwhelming thoughts just are all in your head at
once and you're just like mommy, I wanna come home and I love
that her mom. I believe that's why, like, we
do get her mom, right? Yeah.
And she's like, don't come home. You don't need to come home.
You got this. And I believe Ren was doing
that, too. So Ren did want what was best
for her, Like, and that that was to go.
Ren was not holding her back? No.
Just trying to push her too hard.
Yeah. Ren was pushing her too hard
towards it. Yeah.
And so, like, that's that
support system because it was far away.
Helped even more because she wasn't coming home, but she, the
support system was still there. Yeah, OK, so now on page 44
there, I'm going to read this quote some days.
Stevie spent an hour wondering if that customer whose order she
screwed up at Bitches Brew was going to sue the entire business
and shut everything down, destroying all of Effie's hard
work and putting Stevie out of a job.
An irrational thought she knew, but that didn't keep her brain
from latching onto it like a sloth around a tree limb.
Acting was the only part of her life where she was free from
this crippling second guessing of every move she made.
And boy do I love this one as well.
Everything that they everything they describe about her anxiety
is just extremely relatable. I just started a new job and the
the morning of my first day I was messaging my mom every
single not intrusive thought, but like what?
What was it? Irrational thought.
That's right, every irrational thought that I could think of.
And I'm like, what if they hate me?
What if I make this big mistake and cause the business to go out
of like the business to go bankrupt and like all of these
things and it just kept getting progressively worse.
And I was just like, I need to get all these irrational
thoughts out because if I don't, they're just going to stay in
there and I need someone to tell me that that's that's
irrational. So it makes sense.
But crippling is absolutely the best word to be used here
because it gets to the point where you're just like, I can't
function, I'm you shut down and it's just way too much to
handle. And I definitely relate to
Stevie's theater being her escape, because having that
script definitely helps 'cause you get given blocking where
you're supposed to move on the stage when you're supposed to
speak, just hopefully you don't forget it, 'cause that's even
more anxiety. And then you'll end up with
dreams of where you you get thrown on stage.
I had those dreams still. It's it's terrible.
It's a terrible dream. The wake up from, but it's
actually happened to me before. Anyway, that's not, that's not
why we're here today. But the most important thing is
you know how someone's going to react to the words you're
saying. So maybe they're judging you on
the inside, but you know what they're saying.
Like when you're acting on stage, you know your intent, you
know the ACT, the character's intent.
There's no unknown. There should be no one that
unless you're doing the improv, you're trained for that and
that's a whole other thing. OK, so that's all I have for
that. Do you have anything else for
that? No, I agree.
I I think I agree with why Stevie likes acting and I like
that Stevie mentioned that too. Or it's like, again, it's like
living life without variables like.
And that's comforting the Stevie, that's why she was in
the relationship with Adrie for so long.
Even when she's like this isn't working anywhere.
She's like, it was safe and comfortable and I it was
familiar. And that's the thing, like, you
read the script, you go live it like it's familiar.
I already know. I I know all these things.
Like, so yeah, it makes sense that that's why she likes acting
so much. I don't know about improv.
I think that would freak her out.
No, improv is definitely scary, especially when you have
anxiety, 'cause you're thinking like, oh, well, people think
it's funny. Isn't it good?
Do I go too far? It's, you know, I always speak
because I did theatre and stuff. So like, I'm I'm in my head, I'm
Stevie, so I'm going to speak for Stevie.
But theatre definitely helps because I didn't even get any
confidence until I started doing musical theatre, because you
have to become these people. So you just like how Stevie
became Stefania at Lush. Like she knew that being a
character would help her disassociate in a way to make
her more confident and pretend like she is someone else.
Yeah. It only goes so far because it
only extends to theater, but just like Savanya, but it does.
You keep bringing something slowly and and you get you get
there. Yeah, but I can look someone in
the eye and have a conversation. Now that's what theater did.
OK, I'm on. Oh, that was another Gap
reference. No idea what that means.
OK, so now I want to talk a little bit about how I
absolutely love everything. How everything is handled with
Stevie's anxiety around sex and now like.
OK, we'll get there. So this is a huge reason why I
love this book, because one day we're talking about this.
I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is so real.
And this is so different from anything else I've read because
I've never seen characters have this type of discussion before.
I have. OK, we're getting into this now.
I have always had extreme anxiety around this topic.
OK, with everything. But this, especially as we've
discussed it, anxiety is a constant and I've been debating
how much to actually say in this episode and I still don't know
if I really want to say it. But one of the things I'm
passionate about is talking about things people don't think
you really should. So I'm just going to say it all,
even if I regret it later, because maybe someone listening
will be in my situation or relate to something I say.
So here it goes. So I currently have less
experience than even when where Stevie starts in the first in
this book, in this first book, no.
In this book. In this book, I mean, I would
love to see more of Stevie's story.
And to be completely blunt, I've never had sex and my first kiss
was basically forced upon me, and the subsequent two were just
for research, so I don't really count it.
No actual research, 'cause it was with dudes.
I know. So yeah.
And everyone was like, well, how'd you feel?
Did you like, I'm like, no, it was dudes.
I was just researching. I'm like, no, I'm.
I'm very gay, Thank you very much.
OK, so let's recap. Never had sex.
Never had a true first kiss, and have never even been on a date.
And I don't even know how to talk to someone who I could
possibly like. So yeah, you're welcome for
knowing everything about me. Now, in previous episodes, we
have talked about how our society is so obsessed with sex.
Sex, sex, sex Number 6666. That's a great show.
I mean, I know music, but I want to see it someday.
Anyway, society is so obsessed with sex, especially in the
media. The way media portrays it is
that everyone knows exactly what to do, and outside of media, it
just feels like society pressures you into things.
In high school, I just thought I was a loser.
I mean, I still kind of combat those thoughts now, saying that
I'm stupid and that something is wrong with me because I haven't
done things that it seems like everyone does in high school, if
not earlier for some reason. For context, I'm 26, so if that
helps anyone. I always love when I got here.
Someone say that they're not experienced and they're older.
So I don't know. I I do.
I do struggle with that and I feel like an utter loser because
it's it just, it feels like I should have done everything by
now. We love you, Caitlin.
You are. Certainly not a.
Loser. How dare you say that about my
friend? It's a it's a weird topic.
But, like, I'm definitely, yeah. Because like, even all these
games that you play in like a group party setting, like never
have I ever, I never took a drink.
So you won. You're the champion of, yeah.
And then also for some reason, they they played this game when
I was travelling around the world with like 27 strangers.
So we were like sitting in France, OK?
And they were like, let's play the body count game.
So everyone wrote their body countdown on a piece of paper
and then they had to guess. That's gross and was a bunch of
dudes. No, it was all the females on
the trip. There was no dudes.
I don't think there were any dudes in that room.
And that's the weird part. Interesting.
That's the women, definitely. I'm hearing the women
outnumbered the men tremendously on that trip, which was for me.
Yeah, definitely had a huge crush on at least one girl
there. Won't get into that right now.
That's that's. Not part of this discussion, no.
Yeah, pretty sure that was a known though and they anyway not
the point of this, but they were guessing with the numbers and I
got to say I guess it makes me feel kind of good because no one
guessed me when they picked out the number 0 they were guessing
like a bunch of other. People and like.
Oh, OK. I really thought people would
have guessed me right away. Anyway, again, still not the
point of this. Just wanted to bring that on.
How it's like it's such a thing that people talk about.
Like how you you're cool if you've slept with a lot of
people. And I don't.
I don't get that. I don't get it.
Do whatever makes you happy. You do or don't do it.
Like, if casual sex is your thing, fine, yeah, like go for
it. But like, I feel like people are
ashamed if they don't have experience or they're shamed.
If they do, they're like, yeah, that is true because there
aren't many people. I just live your life.
Fuck off. That's that's all we want to do
is just live our life. Exactly.
I I hope what I said helps one person because, like, it's still
weird. Out of everything I say on this
podcast, this is what's making me cringe.
I get it. I was raised Catholic.
I understand. Oh.
My gosh. OK, so back to the topic of
Stevie and the sex anxiety. It was hilarious, and I think I
might have even laughed actually out loud when Stevie wasn't even
able to say the word boobs. And then Iris starts going down
the list, trying to get Stevie to say all these things, and he
gets the Force. And he's just like, let's start
small. I can't.
We're not doing this all in one day.
It was just so funny and cute. And I like, I actually was not
able to even, like, talk about sex or like say that word for so
long. I mean, it got, I think like,
the word lesbian is the same way as that.
Like, till this podcast and we start talking about it.
Yep, because we've had like quite a few conversations about
sex recently because of heart stopper this.
Like it's been in a couple of things.
Yeah, yeah. And now every day at work, I
have at least one conversation about sex.
It's not weird because it's like a health female health company,
so work related medical. I have to.
I mean, these were like, yeah, so every day I hear the words
vagina, vulva, everything. So it's not weird for me
anymore. And so that's why I think it's
very important to just talk about it, because I agree at
some point it won't be weird that I just told you all of
that. Hopefully it's not weird.
Now let me know. It's definitely not weird.
Thanks for sharing, Caitlin. Thanks.
I don't know when to stop. Anyway, it and then we already
talked about this, but it was great how Iris established in
the beginning that Stevie had to be in control with what she
wanted because Iris didn't want to accidentally hurt her and go
past her boundaries. And again, like this is the
first lesson that Stevie had to know what she wanted and ask for
it. Side note, I laughed so hard,
and this one definitely was out loud when Iris said that the
last person she slept with was in a bathroom at Top Golf.
Yeah, that was funny. Just like the desperation of
that scenario is really. It's just like the fact that Top
Golf is like picturing this place.
First of all, I love Top Golf. It's it's great place.
Just. Like picturing this now and it's
just. Hilarious.
I love it. I just.
I love every conversation that they have 'cause it.
It's so real and gives you a different perspective because
it's it's someone who is not experienced like she has only
had one person. It took her forever not forever
but like a year to even be comfortable.
To be honest I don't know how you're ever comfortable with
Adri valid. So it's just it's a lot.
It's a big topic and I'm really, really glad and it it just made
me feel seen and it's another reason why I just.
I love this book and I I find myself just like going to it and
just like it's the first time I ever wouldn't like just hug a
book that makes you feel seen. I just I love it so much and I'm
about to cry right now. I can feel it and I'm trying so
hard about to. Cole, take it away.
Yes, please. Yeah.
I I trying to I I want to add something else related to that
kind of the discussion that Caitlin was just having, but I'm
not quite sure if it fits into this.
I don't know if you want me to share it.
Anyway, I say anything and everything.
Just don't. Know what?
Well, I was gonna say how I liked that they like experience
isn't everything. Also like experience can also or
like the want to be like everybody else or to be like
doing what other people say is normal or whatever can put you
in situations that you don't actually want to be in but
without realizing it. So I didn't realize that I am on
the ace spectrum until like two years ago.
Three years ago? What year is it?
2020 is 2024 years ago. Four years ago, apparently.
And it was, it was something 'cause like, I just, I like, I
thought I was demisexual. So I I thought I was maybe on it
because people were telling me like, why don't you want to do
stuff? And it's like.
What do you mean? I am thinking about laundry now
and this is boring. So it's it was very much like
things always started off like great and fun and then two
months in I'm like, so the dishes, right?
Like. Can.
Just. Nap time, like what is, so it's
basically it it took me a very long time because I didn't
realize what was happening. So having these discussion
discussions in media is very important because you learn
about other like sexualities, identities, anything like that
and it it gives more perspective to what you might be going
through. So Caitlin, there's nothing
wrong with not having done anything and that's basically
because you could end up doing stuff and be like that was a
mistake. So, like, like, I haven't.
So basically that's that's all I have for that.
I appreciate you adding that I need to add something, no
problem. But yeah, so and it is an
uncomfortable thing to talk about and it is something like.
That. It should hopefully get easier
to talk about, but it is it's uncomfortable.
And that's also OK You know what?
I want to open this conversation if you have.
If you want to just open up to us and continue this session,
come to the Discord or drop your comment below on YouTube.
Let's see if anyone wants to continue it.
Let's bust the stigma. Yeah, I mean it's it's good to
talk about and. You're you would.
Probably be surprised at how many other people are in very
similar boats as well. So it's like it is.
It is what it is. As they say, you know.
But sometimes things just happen.
Or don't happen, you know? Just talk about it.
Yeah. So then back to some more of
this. I love this book.
Back to the book. So I think the.
Topic of mental health was covered pretty well since this
was we were talking about mental health before we got correct and
a derailed. It's.
All mental health. It's all mental health, Yeah,
Yeah. I think therapy could have been
discussed a little bit more overall about how beneficial it
was for Stevie and how much possibly could have helped Iris
with some of the things that she's working through or needing
to work. Through one thing I.
Really, really love though. Was Iris using her freckles to
help ground Stevie during an anxiety attack?
I just thought that was the sweetest thing.
And it it was. It was so.
It was so lovely, and I think the main take away from from
this book for me is having mental illness doesn't always
have to be a problem. The right people will still
accept you and calm you down. With the blue.
With their blue freckles. So I forgot about that scene.
Yeah, that was a really sweet scene because it wrote that iris
right away and knew exactly what scene.
They knew. How to?
Handle each other and that's what's cute.
And that's what you need, person.
I love them. It was very sweet, very cute.
But Stevie isn't the only one dealing with mental health.
Like, yes, like it's much more upfront.
It has a label, it is discussed many, many times.
But Iris also has her own mental health stuff going on, it's just
not overtly as discussed. And I personally found Iris more
relatable when it came to this. So basically, Iris has PTSD from
relationships, hence why she's not dating.
So essentially like basically she's been burned too many times
in the relationship department. From like, Grant, who we
actually meet in the first book, Delilah Green doesn't care.
And they had like a very stable cute they were very much in love
with each other relationship, but they parted because they
wanted different things in life. Like Grant wanted to get married
and have kids. And Iris was like, I've never
wanted that and I don't want that.
And that they amicably, amicably broke up because of differences.
And that's OK, Yeah, and that's OK.
But like, again, like, Iris had a good partner that she loved.
And like, they split up because of their differences.
Then the Jillian stuff happens in the second.
Book. Where they are basically just
like it's like a sexual relationship is basically when
she had like Jillian has all this money and power and just
like they're having fun. But then Iris finds out that
Jillian was cheating on her wife with Iris and so my gosh, that
scene with her I'm sorry, continue.
And then so so she finds that out.
Yeah, I was pissed that she showed up in this book.
So then Iris was like a complete mess when she figured that out
because she's like, finally, I have a good thing that's really
fun. This is somebody who gets what I
want, which is just like a relationship.
That's like because they had things in common and they would
like, go out and go on dates and stuff.
But it's like she doesn't want to get married, she doesn't want
kids. With Iris, she comes to find
out. So it's like she, her ego keeps
getting like bruised time and time again and her heart keeps
getting crushed. And then when we learn in this
book is that back when she was younger and like coming into
puberty and stuff, like, Iris is a very curvy goddess of a woman
and so like, everybody just wants to fuck her basically.
And Iris is like, I like having sex.
So that wasn't a big deal. But then she got the reputation
of just being like good down for a good fuck is what she says in
the book. And so like over time like that,
that erodes part of your like self esteem I think in a way
because of the way Iris like felt like she kept getting
burned. Not that like hooking up with a
bunch of people is bad. I'm just like from Iris's point
of view that like the hook up department, like that kind of
like created this situation where she had to like put up
those emotional walls, right. And start using humor as, like a
defense mechanism and being this unbreakable big personality that
we see in the beginning of the book and that stems from all of
this, like, trauma that she's kind of went through.
And then she realizes that she's a person that doesn't want the
same thing her parents want. Right, 'cause very loving, too
loving of a relationship with the parents where, you know,
they have three kids, they're still married, They're still all
over each other. But Iris is like, yeah, I like,
I would like the partner part, but I don't want the marriage.
I don't, I don't want kids. Like, I don't want any of those
things. Like, I'm comfortable with who I
am. I like who I am.
I just want somebody who enjoys life with me, basically.
It always amazes me when people are still married.
It happens. But with Iris, like, every time
she goes out and like, finds somebody that she thinks she can
live the life she wants with something kept getting in the
way, right? And like breaking her heart,
essentially. And so she has PTSD from that,
like pretty hardcore PTSD, which is why she's so avoidant of her
feelings with Stevie. And it's causing problems with
like her friend group and like the parents and stuff because
like I when Iris tries to communicate it, the parents
don't get it. And so then she's just like,
feels like she's inadequate because she's like, I can't
please you with who I am. And then when she goes to the
friends, like, over time, like, the friend group gets harder for
her to be a part of because she's like the 6th wheel or
whatever. Over time.
Because, like, they're all coupled up with their forever
people. And she's like, I'm just the
single person. And you start to see things
where she's like, who wants to go to the bar with me?
And like, nobody wants to go, 'cause they're at home with
their significant others. So it's like it's it's isolating
her in a way. And Iris, yes, never goes to
therapy. I assume her family's not a
therapy family, 'cause they're, you know, no, they're perfect.
They're not absolutely wrong with them.
No, it's like a Catholic thing. Like therapy doesn't exist.
Like I think that might be, you know, feeding into it, but.
She's the she's spent so many years building that tough
exterior where she's like, I, you know, I can take care of
myself, I'll be fine. I I'm going to be by myself
anyway, cuz like nobody could possibly love me.
And like, I kind of get like that when you, when you've been
in relationships that meant something to you and then to
have them end like kind of out of your control in a way.
Like it does, it leaves scars, right?
And it is harder to kind of like jump into something that could
be real again, which is I think what we're seeing with her and
Stevie where she's so hesitant to do that.
It's coming from this trauma that she has.
And it's like you could go to all the therapy in the world,
but really it's like you have to heal and, like be comfortable
with it on your own time. And so Stevie's really great for
Iris because Stevie doesn't give up on Iris and figures out a way
to get her comfortable. The same way Iris is like, count
my freckles like overwhelm because they have real
conversations with each other. Like you said, Caitlin, they
kind of have therapy together and get to know each other
really, really well. And so Stevie helps with Iris
with the PTSD because it gets to a point where Stevie's like, I
see the mask going on right now. I see the mask, I see it.
I see her like trauma response happening.
So I do like the way it's much more subtle with Iris, like the
the her mental health stuff, but it's very much there.
Stevie recognizes it and then figures out how to like help her
through it. Because Iris is also a person
who like, is highly defensive, like when she feels insecure,
when she feels inadequate. And I think you mentioned
earlier Cole, like with her friends, like they don't upfront
are more hands on. With Iris, it's because Iris
would bite their hands off and they know that they're like, we
have to be very delicate because she blows up so easily.
And so Stevie is very good at navigating those, like emotional
roller coasters that she's having and can like calm her
down in a way that's Iris appropriate.
And that's just that comes from just knowing somebody truly very
well. And so I like that they they
kind of help each other with their own respective mental
health disorders. But I found by Iris very
relatable in that sense that, like, she is somebody who's in a
lot of pain. And like, it is something that's
very isolating. And like, therapy sometimes just
doesn't help. It's like you just you have to
go through it and feel it and like, when you're ready, move
on, like move through it and past it.
And like, Iris does eventually get there because because of in
large part because of Stevie, but because she's ready and
wants to. And it's it's the same thing
with Stevie, like accepting the New York offer, like she had to
get there on her own time. Like, you can't force her into
it, you know? So I like that about Iris.
Yeah, I OK. I wasn't sure if you wanted to
say anything. OK.
So I am. So I really liked that it wasn't
that this was explained a little bit more or shown a little bit
more like what it actually was and not used as an A spectrum
misconception. There is an incorrect assumption
that a person has to be traumatized and that's why
they're on the A spectrum. So I'm glad it made it made made
a clear distinction between being on the A spectrum versus
having trauma related connected to a past relationship.
So I really liked that they showed that.
They explained that. No, no, no.
Like, this is something completely different to that.
And Iris is aware enough of herself that, like, she
understands that, no, this is a completely separate thing.
I I have been and I am still, but there's just this additional
mental health PTSD stuff that's kind of covering her ability to
feel that right now. It makes it extremely painful is
what it is. It's painful for her.
That's why like any time Stevie does something romantic, she's
like feels uncomfortable because it she's being triggered.
Like her pain is being triggered and it's painful.
So I I as somebody who's been in that position, like I I
understand that and like just trying to move on to move on
does not work. Like you have to be like ready
for it. So I, I, I feel Iris a lot in
this in this particular story. Like it's very real.
All the trauma's very real. Good job.
Ashley. Thanks for giving us the book
Full of Trauma. This book is so good because the
the opposite of Stevie and Iris because I'm able to relate to
Stevie you're able to relate to Iris.
I can't really speak on Iris and stuff because again got nothing.
So and I can't see it on Stevie. I do not have anxiety.
I my partner has anxiety I can I not have anxiety.
Yeah, no, it's it's I My brain just, like, melts.
I'm like, how do you? You don't, you know your heart
doesn't, like, beat rapidly when you're walking down the street
for no reason whatsoever. Like you don't feel like you're
going to, like, start just having a meltdown in public.
What? I have other problems.
There's nothing. It's not exactly.
It's like, don't take this for me.
Not having problems. I still have them.
Just not this one. Now I would love to know, like
to have like one day without anxiety and see what it's like.
Because I don't know, a life without anxiety meds help me.
So that's drugs. See that?
That helps me from shutting down and like, having panic attacks,
but it doesn't keep the anxiety away from like, every minute.
Like, even right now I can feel it in my chest and I don't take
my meds in two days, so I can feel it.
I haven't had it in one Cole's Method podcast thing.
I didn't take my meds so. We can talk about Stevie.
All right, there's one thing I want to add, unless you have
anything else, but I'm sure we can talk about the mental health
stuff all day. But is there anything else?
I mean, it's really hard because I I love the mental health
stuff. It's very important.
There's one thing I want to mention.
It ties into kind of like how Iris feels.
And also for the Gap people out there, OK, it's on page 209 when
they're acting on stage. And it's basically Stevie and
Iris are acting out a scene together as Benedict and
Beatrice. And so I just want to read this
because I love this, basically. Yeah.
So Iris is basically, it's Iris, point of view.
She's watching Stevie, and she's kind of, like, mesmerized by her
Benedict. So this is about Stevie.
She. Stevie approached Benedict in a
way Iris never would have imagined.
Arrogant for sure, but tender, even shy.
A woman in their version at least, who wore a mask for the
world to hide, A deeper fear of being seen, of being loved and
left. That's how Iris feels about
herself, too. Wearing a mask for the world to
see. Fear of being because she's
afraid. Fear of being loved and fear of
being left. That's exactly how Iris feels.
And the Gap, the series, that's exactly what Sam is doing.
So I just, I had to bring that up because that just
encapsulates Iris Kelly so, so well, and she's saying it about
Stevie pretending to be. Benedict.
Which I love projection. It is I I was like, uh huh.
And then I went to the page and I was like OK, I see it.
I read that and I was just like. Sam.
OK. If the R is just reading this
book, I would like, I mean to be fair we're talking about gaps so
much. We're still not.
We're still talking about gaps. I draw parallels from everywhere
that's how my. But I mean it is a common thing
in our episodes. We always talk about we compare
stuff to the last thing we just talked about.
So like that's how you interpret media.
Again like my bias when I'm reading that is I've read
something similar. It reminds me of this because, I
mean you could you could like relate a lot of those characters
back to the Shakespeare and being like, well, they're just a
knock off of the Shakespeare character that's gone through 20
different, like, kaleidoscope iterations.
And now we have Iris. OK, well, I'm gonna skip then
because I have my own Gap comparison.
So while filming Gap, the series discussions Theora taught me
about the 72 hour lesbian first date.
Hell yeah. And I just love that the first
time they realize that this isn't just lessons and the Iris
and Stevie gets together. Stevie doesn't go home for three
days because they have the lesbians everywhere.
And it it took me and I was like, oh, wait, that's what it
is? Yep, It starts like Friday night
and then it ends on Monday. So it's either two days or three
days depending on when they get started.
Also, how dare you? How dare you skip that other
note? No, no, no, no.
Oh, I did the same thing. OK, so page 2265I, I put sticky
notes where and just like hoped I remembered what the note was
in my head 'cause I didn't write anything on sticky notes, I just
put them in the book. So I put it on this page and I
was so confused why I put the sticky note on the page.
And then I put it strategically in some places and I realized
why? Because it was right on top of
the words of. I think it was.
I don't know. I think this is Iris's point of
view, 'cause I I just saw it when I was flipping through the
book and I was like, I had the same thought someone was saying
something, something or I know this all too well, So and the
words were on all too well. So you are.
Why did I mark this page? Because it's in my opinion, the
best Taylor Swift dog ever. If you're listening for 10
minutes, it's so good. It was playing, I was playing
that. It came on randomly right before
this. And I was like, well, I guess we
have to. I only know the like 2 sentences
in that song. So I listened for 10 minutes and
then all I'm saying all too. Well.
That's all I know. The whole song, like, OK, but if
you go back and listen to it, like, that's literally how Iris
feels about her past relationships, though that is
literally that song. Like, that is how Iris feels in
this book. So I'm hoping actually put it in
there for a reason, 'cause like 'cause I think it was Iris's
point of view. But if you've been watching or
you know, if you've been watching any of our recent
episodes, you know that the Taylor Swift references are just
coming and you're just gonna just go with us.
You don't know them. Go listen to it.
It's there's so many of them. They're all storytelling, so
it's all relevant. Did you want to know whose point
of view it was, or are you just hoping it's Iris?
I don't. I think it was.
It's Stevie's. Was Stevie the one who said it?
Because no, Claire said it. Claire.
Yeah. I was like, I knew it wasn't,
but I don't think it was Adri. I don't think it was Vanessa.
It was, yeah. Claire who said it?
But talking to Stevie. Yeah, I didn't think.
I saw it on another page earlier in the book.
Mine was on 265. Yeah.
Mine was not. So there was 2.
All 2O's right. Both times I was like, yeah, but
no, I think. This one, like, was literally
the. Lines or something.
I don't know what the actual line was.
Maybe I'm just like singing the song in my head.
In the. Book when it was all too well.
And here we are again. I don't know the words.
I remember it all too well. That's there you go.
That's our saying for the episode, 'cause I think it's in
every episode at this point. It is.
You're welcome. And then, once once Cole stops
looking it up, we'll we'll head to Cole's next point.
Oh, it's. Me.
So it was the topic. It's I guess.
I don't remember. It's nice that they both ended
up doing. There's no topic for this.
Our random thoughts. Right now, perfect.
Perfect. I was like, I wonder, OK, yeah,
it's nice that they both ended up doing the things they needed
to do. Like Stevie went to New York and
did the show and Iris wrote her book.
It's annoying that they couldn't just communicate and like, go to
New York City together, 'cause, I mean, Iris is working from
home to do this, so she could have just travelled there and
OK, The thing is, Stevie was only going until July.
They could have made it work, like she could come back, like
they didn't have to move to New York because there's so many
people in the entertainment industry.
They're together, but their partner has to go to, like, all
the way around the world just to just go for like 6 months.
That's a common scenario. I see what you're saying.
But, like, it's implied in the beginning of the book that Iris
wanted to get out of Bright Falls, like, 'cause they have a,
they have a conversation where they're talking about it.
And Iris is like, I they go downtown, which in a small town.
What does that even mean? And Iris is like, I just feel
more at home in like, the city. So, like, it's implied that she
wants to get out of there and like, restore it.
There's those she can write from anywhere.
Yeah. Michaels, have I mentioned that
I love this book. I'm glad you loved it.
I knew you're going to like it. It's a very good.
It's my favorite one of the trilogy in my opinion, only
reading two. It's my favorite of the two.
OK, you have one more point before I can go off about the
other one. So I'm just going to randomly do
that. Let's see.
But yeah, to continue off of that.
But it was nice to that they ended up deciding that they did
want to be together and try to make relationship work, and that
Iris did end up going in down to over to New York.
And they're able to explore what they had in a new city as well.
And then it's nice to see that two people can be together
without giving up anything important to themselves and both
can pursue their dreams and be in a relationship together.
Stills, they didn't have to make massive compromises with their
like who they are. Yeah.
And that's that's really the the point, especially from Iris's
point of view. You know she that's what she
was. She always wanted somebody who
wasn't going to change her. You know I will say we were
getting to like the very end of the book and I was like, but how
are they going to get back together?
Like I'm like we don't have much longer left like this.
I feel like this book could have gone on for like 200 more pages
because like and it was I hate it when the books like just do
things so quickly in the end like because she got a book of
drawings from Iris and then the last page.
I mean, this was pretty cute of Iris standing outside Stevie's
apartment freezing for two hours, which was insane, yeah,
but like, it was just so simple. And I kind of wish we like, I
want to see people talk more and show that journey of how they
get back to a good place. Because it it's like one thing
happens and everything is magically fine.
And I think I know that this is like the fantasy world, but I
want to see like, selfishly because, like, I use media to
educate myself on, like, how to act in relationships.
I want to see the communication of them working things out.
And we don't really get that. Yeah, I agree.
You'd have to continue the book. I think that it had to end this
way because the whole point is it's full circle for Iris.
Right. Where Iris is like was getting
romance lessons from Stevie and like does a big romance gesture
that like woos Stevie. So I think that's why I didn't.
I didn't get that. But that's why I see.
But I I so basically I agree with one 100 more pages.
Yeah. I agree with you.
Instead of the wedding, I'd prefer if we have.
Yeah. Like, actually, yes, because
like, it wasn't their book and I know it's tying up.
There's a trilogy. That's why this is the last one
series. But also I hate, I hate weddings
and shows and stuff. I hate it.
And especially like in fan fiction, they're always there
And I'm like, please do not write out this entire ceremony
because I don't care. I don't like weddings in
general. I.
Know it's. So annoying.
All right, Speaking of things that are annoying, OK, so let's
talk about the trilogy. So if you haven't read all three
of them, like, skip ahead 5 minutes.
I just need to I this is my podcast and I want to read
about. Funny how you assume you're only
going to talk for 5 minutes. Continue.
No, it'll be real fast. So Iris Kelly doesn't Date is
the third book in the Bright Fall series.
First one's the light of the green.
Doesn't care. That book.
Amazing. So, so good.
Love that book.
Then there's the second book, as Ashwin Parker doesn't.
I hated that book. I hated it.
Like go off Astrid. Like Astrid has a rough time in
the I don't want to spoil stuff. Should I spoil stuff?
I don't know. All right, basically And and
apparently I'm not going to read this because you don't like.
It. So if you've if you've read
this, you know who's coupled up basically.
So in the first book, Delilah gets Claire.
Their story is super cute. Claire.
Like, OK, Claire is featured a lot in this book and she's
adorable and super sweet. They have a kid, right?
Yes, Claire has a daughter and then like, Oh my God, their
story's really cute, 'cause it's like Grumpy meets Sunshine.
And like, Delilah's had a crush on her for a while.
Their story's fucking adorable. That's the one I haven't read.
It's so cute. I I highly even like knowing
they end up together. Go read that book.
It's really good. Their story is fantastic.
I think it's on our, like, reading list.
Yeah, it is. It it.
I hope so. It's great.
It's a really good story. But in the first book, like
Astrid is getting married to this guy, then it doesn't work
out. And so in the second book, she's
like figuring her shit out and she meets Jordan and I fucking
hate Jordan. Oh my God.
Cause in the book, basically like, she's the interior
designer for the Everwood Inn, which we hear about in the book,
which Jordan's family owns. Jordan is awful to Astrid and
it's Carpenter, right? She's the Carpenter.
But then she like goes behind Astrid's back and does all the
model, the remodeling of the house without telling her, thus
breaking her contract. And the whole thing is glossed
over 'cause they're like, Astrid doesn't love this career, she
wants to be a Baker. But it's never addressed how
this girl fucks her over in the biggest possible way, like
contractually fucks her over, and then they get together at
the end. I was so mad about this.
I was like, I don't want together at all.
And Jordan's really annoying. Also, every time she's on page,
I'm like, I don't want to hear it from Jordan.
I fucking hate Jordan. I hate when it's toxic and they
get together in the end. Yeah, I was like, I don't want
this happy season. Sorry Cole, I hate it.
But like, Astrid's journey is cute and like, you know, she
like, figures her sexuality out and like what she wants in life
and stands up to her controlling mother and all this kind of
stuff. Her story's great.
I just hate Jordan. I fucking hate Jordan and I hate
that they try and gloss it over and be like but they're in love.
No, no, this is employer, employee.
Should I have a problem with this stuff when they take agency
away from the employee and then they're like but it flirting
it's like no, this is actually get below anyway, so if anything
go read the first book. That's my advice.
OK. All right.
So I guess the agreement doesn't matter unless you have something
to say, Cole. Well, just to just to what you
said, just to. Counteract of.
Course your opinion. I did like it, but I don't like
I I just see like the end result.
I I now hearing that, like, it's probably really bad that like
the cut like just ruined the contract and like just did all
this stuff really bad. Did you not read the book?
I did. I did.
Oh. I just fucked.
Over. Not like the IT was keeps doing
this. I'm like Oh my God that's not.
Does it make it OK? It was.
Hot. I can't.
It's hot. It really wasn't.
She went, she did backstabbing. It's not.
It's not.
It wasn't farting. It was backstabbing.
It was terrible. And it's just it's never
addressed. It's never addressed in the
book, but she builds a thing with the carpentry things.
And. Like it was addressed.
The fuckery that it's never addressed.
That's the problem I have. It's never, it's just glossed
over that like, passion. No, I I know.
But that's where I get stuck. I get stuck with the like, it's
cute And it's. I'm not saying it's OK.
I don't. I don't.
In case our viewers ever thought we all had the same opinions.
We don't watch this employer employee shit.
I have a problem with it, Elliot.
Anyway, so that's that cute series, a lot of queerness, a
lot of queer friend groups, things like that.
But we're going to wrap up talking about Iris.
Kelly doesn't date specifically, so before we sign off, as with
always with these things, we are going to read it on the Lesbian
Jesus Hydration scale if you're new here.
Basically, this is a scale developed by Gay Science AKA
Caitlyn. Because she's the scientist.
And it's super accurate method of determining how valuable a
piece of queer media is in the global library of Queer media.
So and why are we hydrating? Because queer media, like water,
is essential for life. So how would you guys rate Iris?
Kelly doesn't date. How much would you hydrate for
lesbian Jesus? OK, so like always I've just
going back and forth, but this time it was between a nine and a
9.5. I still can't figure it out, but
I I wrote down 9 but I really liked it.
So I think I'm going to go 9.5 because it's just really cute
and I really love Stevie and it makes me feel seen.
If you couldn't tell all that already, it's just I love it so
much. Thank you Theor for making me
read it. You're welcome.
So I think my score would be an 8.5 because I would prefer more
open discussion about therapy and how it's beneficial.
It's just like some more mental health talk around it and and
stuff like that, but a bonus point, so I guess a 9.5.
For. Iris's ability ability to just
innately know how to calm Stevie down in a variety of different
situations. And it was just so beautiful
that that gets an extra, an extra point.
I love it. I would, I would give it a nine
for literally everything we talked about in this whole
episode where it gets a point deduction.
This book and the whole trilogy in general.
It's just it's too many white people.
Like, yeah, like some side characters, there's a little bit
of diversity sprinkled in there, but the mains are always white
people. And that is a problem I have
with the series overall. OK, so my issue is that not an
issue, but when I see Stevie the name all I'm thinking of is
Hailey Kiyoko because she played Stevie in Wizards.
Oh, Wizards. That's what it was.
Yeah, Wizards. Whatever.
He plays. So that's Hailey Kiyoko is
Stevie. OK, that works.
But yeah, I I have no idea what nationality people are like.
I mean Stefania is Italian, so I was like, that's my aunt's name.
So they they do mention that, but like that's as ethnic as and
like and like this is a more ethnic book because technically
like she's Italian American, which is an ethnicity and then
like Iris is Irish American, so like there's that.
But that's as as diverse as the leads get in this book.
The, the trilogy though, that's the only problem I have with it.
Like tertiary characters are sprinkled in but they are in.
This is Disney level diversity. Exactly.
So it gets a point taken off for that.
But like everything else about it is really great.
And it's AI have read it multiple times.
Like, it is a very good book, but like, not great with
diversity. I'll say that for the Mains.
That is fair. Very fair.
All right. So that was Iris.
Kelly doesn't date. What are we talking about?
Next time we'll be back, we're doing solitaire.
No, we're not. We're doing just gay.
The lesbian is cold. Do you want to show us what our
next book is? Because you haven't.
Yeah, The Lesbian is Guide to Catholic School.
Yeah. Oh, I have to get the name, but
this was actually recommended. Someone messaged us through our
website and was just like, hey, you need to read this book.
And this is like months ago, but we didn't forget and so thank
you for the recommendation. If you're watching this, it's
excellent. Read it.
Call cheated and read the book already.
Call cheated and read it already.
Which is OK, but OK. But Speaking of which, So yes,
we take your recommendations. If you have any recommendations
for books you'd like us to cover, leave it in the comments.
Especially if it's like a diverse book that we've never
like, talked about. The representation or
culturally, let us know because we want to make sure that
everybody feels seen in these book clubs.
Totally, totally. So we're working on it.
So until next time, hydrate for lesbian Jesus and gate up all
over the place. Bye.