Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy.
I'm Bree. I'm Fiora.
And I'm Caitlin. Come along with us while we dive
into the fun and nuances of queer media.
Representation matters, and we're here to talk about it.
Cheers, queers. On today's Big Gay Agenda is a
very special book club. Today we will finally dive into
Rainbow Islands, a book we have talked about over and over on
this podcast. But what makes it extra special
is that we are not alone. We'll be talking with the
author, Devin. So welcome to the chaos, Devin.
Thanks for being here. Hi.
Thank you so much for having me. Yay.
We are so excited. I want to start before we kind
of get into questions and kind of explain how we found out
about this book. So one of my friends like,
recommended this book to me. And my friend Pete and Pete
found this book at a very pivotal moment in their life.
And I want to read you something that they sent to me because I I
told them we were going to talk to you.
And so this is a message from Pete.
To quote The first time I found Rainbow Islands, it was by
accident. The day before I started my
transition, it held my hand like a kindly old man offering me tea
and a warm fire in from a storm. I don't know how else to
describe it. I've reread it so many times and
recommended to every queer person I meet.
I want a tattoo for it VS Malestram.
I'm so grateful for what you've done and I'm as grateful for the
chance to say thank you. Oh God, that's so sweet.
You're like, you're gonna make me cry.
On my first podcast, it made me cry already.
Yeah, well, to be honest, so much the book made me cry so oh.
God, thank you so much. That means so much to me.
I'm glad. That we got the chance to do
this good. I'm happy to hear that.
There's so many good things about this book.
Not only is it does it, you know, help people.
My my absolute favorite thing about it though, is, is how we
got the book. Like, for me, it's proof that,
like, not all heroes wear Cape capes.
So for those that don't know, the origin of rainbow islands
starts like this. Once Upon a time, there was a
troll on Tumblr that was wildly unaware of the power of the
Internet. So, Devin, could you explain the
infamous Tumblr post that brought us here together today?
So apparently there's a post where this, like, terrible bigot
guy was like, homosexuality is kind of natural.
Because if you took all of the lesbians and put them on an
island and all of them put them on another island, they would
die out within a generation. And then a lot of, like, queer
people got a hold of this post and they started like, ripping
on it and making comments and being like, well, where's this?
Where's this straight island that's exiling people?
And like, have you seen lesbians around wood?
They would build boats immediately and and then it
became this like dystopian, like adventure story about like the
the queer people on the islands getting into like a war with the
straight people who excel them. And I was like, OK, this is
super cool. And it was in my mind for like a
while. And I just was like, you know, I
feel like I actually happened. Try this and put this into an
actual book, because, like, nobody else is apparently in a
It's been a while and I haven't seen anybody else take this
idea, and I'm like, I'm just going to roll with it because I
mean, how many different variations can you make?
Infinite, right? So I decided to do this for
Nanowrimo 2016. If you don't know, Nanowrimo is
National Novel Writing Month. Place in November and if you
remember November 2016 and what that was like, I wrote this book
in a white hot fever of like despair and rage and like kind
of defiant hope. And it's basically like an
expression of all of my, like, queer anger and frustration and
and also like a love letter to the community.
And uplifting myself and trying to, like, get some positivity
out of this like, horrible thing that we all went through.
Yeah, the the I love that a love letter to the community is
definitely how it reads. And that was my impression as
well. So thank you for being the hero
that, like, actually made it a story because it's so, so good
and so fun and just the power of the Internet is the best.
It's Internet at its finest. I saw the Tumblr post after
reading it and I was like, oh shit, OK.
No, me too. And I was just.
Reading it, I was like, it's one of those instances where
everyone's like, somebody should write this, and then thank
goodness you did. I actually like kind of poked
around and like searched to see if there was anything.
I mean, it's obviously hard to like.
Find it based on like a keyword or something.
But I did actually kind of poke around and see like has anybody
actually run with the story yet Because I didn't find anything
that anybody actually wrote a novel based on any of these
ideas that I even write in my, you know, in my office notes
think that I own this idea, the general idea of this like what
was kind of played out. It was just like it's only
literally the story I wrote is the story I wrote.
But please go ahead and write all the different versions with
all of the different like orientations and you know people
with disabilities and different people with different like
racial backgrounds. And so like please write all
these stories because we need them.
Like you're going to write a totally different version than I
am. So just please go and and do
something like that. I haven't seen anybody else do
it. It would be really awesome if
somebody did. I would like you know, love to
do like Co marketing and stuff with them just to like hey man,
this is really cool. You should see this.
That would be amazing. Yes, I would love that so, so
much. Yeah.
So if you're, if you're out there, writers that looking for
a new story idea, please continue.
Rainbow Islands in your vision. All right.
But in this version of Rainbow Islands, our protagonist of the
story is Jason. And when we are first introduced
to Jason, we learn that he is being exiled by the Mainlanders,
which are the Christian Republic in the book.
And he's being exiled because he's queer.
And at the time he's being exiled, he's basically given a
choice, either conversion camp like Rebecca, the girl Jason was
kissing, or exile to Rainbow Islands.
And Jason comments that technically he had a choice
between those two things, but for him there was no choice.
So I'm curious why why Jason felt so strongly entrenched that
like there was no decision for him.
He's I've been you know, to be told like Transparent about like
he's basically sort of like a fantasy version of like me as a
teenager. And I wanted to kind of lean
into some of my own like, personal feelings and
experience. And I had always been like, I
know a lot of there are a lot of queer people who like, wish they
weren't queer because of what society says about queer people
and how it makes them feel and they try to like wish it away or
pray it away and. I'd never actually felt that way
before. Like I desperately prayed to be,
like, magically turned into a boy.
But I've never actually wanted to not be queer.
And I feel like if I had been put in that situation, as much
as I am, like truly and deeply a coward, I don't think I'd be
able to like, not, you know, I don't think I'd be able to to
live with myself. If that takes like going to a
conversion camp, I think I would have been like, I'm out of here.
You know, whatever comes I'm out of here.
And I I just let that be a thing because I, you know that that
Jason's choice kind of makes it a a statement of like what his
personality is and his feelings about you know, even though he
doesn't really know anything about his identity and the
community he's going to be integrated into like he still
has the strong feelings of like. OK, now that I've been given
this choice, forced into it, I don't want to deny myself, And I
would rather like, head into the unknown and possible, like a
life of, you know, difficulty and misery, then survive in a
world that's going to turn me into something I'm not.
That's so beautifully put. So I I love that it's coming
from your perspective of like. What you would you would have
done when you were Jason's age, like in that position.
So I'm curious what everybody else did gay energy podcast
people. What what would you have done if
you were, like, in Jason's position given this?
Like, ultimatum choice? I think it depends on which part
of my life, because now, yeah, hell yeah, I'm going to those
islands, but it's definitely in like high school I.
I don't know what my choice would have been like because,
like, you're leaving your whole family as well and it's just,
yeah, I I wish I would know. I wish I'm who I was today back
then to like have always gone to the islands because, I mean, the
islands seem really cool. I don't.
I don't think I could have made any other choice but but going
because even thinking about myself back at that age, just
hearing the blatant homophobia happening around me because I
grew up in the, well, I mean, like, not like it didn't happen
everywhere. But in the South in the 90s, it
was just like even my softball coach was like, if there were
any lesbians on this team, I would, they would immediately be
kicked off. And I'm just saying they're
like, well, guess I know why my friend didn't make the team and
I guess I better not say anything to anybody about
anything. So I definitely would have had
to go to the island, because I can't imagine being confined and
constricted and forced into a like, like in the book.
The whole, because it's just such a metaphor for the whole
thing. They're putting you in in the
hole is what they're doing and forcing their ideals on you
until you break. So I would have had to go to the
islands. Yeah, I I agree with that.
I I agree with both of you and Caitlin.
I to your point like when you're young like it is a hard it is a
hard choice because like you know you would have to like at
the point where Jason's being given this like.
Choice. What he knows about Rainbow
Islands is propaganda from the people who are sending him
there. So he's like, oh, it's a
terrible place and you're just going to die.
And it's like it's they described as like humane death
because they're like, well, we don't have to kill.
Them like with the. Guns, we're just going to send
them on this island where they'll just die off and like
keep our hands, you know, kind of like blood free.
So like what he knows is like it's basically he's going to die
there versus like this not, which is not what he finds.
And so to do so, he'd have to leave his family versus like,
being. Indoctrinated by force,
essentially into Christianity, which, like, I think if I was 16
and like Jason's age, I would choose the islands.
If I was younger than that, maybe I would have made a
different decision because I grew up like in a Catholic
household and stuff like that. And so, like I I kind of went
through a similar thing with Jason, where I was kind of like
grew up in that environment. And so if I was younger, maybe I
would have been more impressionable and more like,
yeah, like, maybe it's me, I'm the, it's me.
Hi I have the problem. You know, fix me.
But at 16, I was like, yeah, fuck that.
I think I know who I am at this point.
It's I'm not the problem, you guys are the problem.
But I would have left. So it's just an interesting
question that depends on like your age where you're at in your
life I think and perhaps your choice would be different, but
it's just very interesting stereo.
The other aspect is I do because when I was growing up we ended
up going to, I don't know if if you guys are familiar with the
the Church of Christ like a mega church, no, like the the very
fundamentalist type. They speak in tongues and
etcetera etcetera in any case. So I ended up we ended up going
to that church sometimes and any time that church was involved
because my relatives are very religious.
I even as a kid was like, this is bullshit and it's it's the
worst fantasy book I've ever read.
I love fantasy and this is horrible.
So can I. It always felt so culty to me
that I don't think I could have ever gone.
That's another reason I couldn't have gone to the conversion
camp. It just it's always felt like a
a culty type feel with any kind of super organized religion.
Yeah, I. Think I just struggled with
accepting myself for so long. That like because I didn't come
out to family until my sophomore year of college.
So I wish again wish high school I was out because it's been so
great. But because I was always trying
to convince myself I wasn't. I don't think I would have been
strong enough, especially with what they know about the islands
before even getting there, because we have the benefit of
knowing how great these islands are.
But they don't, no. All right, so when Jason is
exiled, he basically gets to bring some possessions with him.
And one thing I love is that Jason's like, I don't need
anything except my books. Devin, is that what you would
have brought with you? Just a bunch of books.
Being told I'm being set to like an island that's basically just,
you know, it's going to be some fruit and some sand and that's,
you know, you're going to live in a Hut and have nothing.
You know, I was like, OK, I got to bring some books with me,
bring all my favorites loaded up.
And like, he says, like, I don't care about the clothes because I
hate everything, you know, that's yeah, I put on my
favorite pair of pants and then that's all I need.
Just going to load it up with absolutely Team me would have
been like, whoa, I've ever put all the books in.
Also agrees with you. I do love when he gets to.
He eventually when he starts on New Hope and he gets to the
library and then he's like books and then he's like, but no one
can have my books like. I love that internal model.
Yes, it's so real. The initial possess.
I'm just like, OK, I'm not. Looks like people share their
stuff, but these are my books. Yeah, these are my books.
I also love because to me, when I read that part, it kind of
struck me as the library as the if you had a church on on
Rainbow Islands, it would be the library.
Right. Like that's the religion.
The religion is knowledge, acceptance.
And yeah, so I love that. Apart from that, I also
appreciated the different governing systems for each group
of Rainbow people. It was a super realistic concept
and I'm curious what made you decide on each one and if you
could tell us a little bit about the that decision.
I think a lot of it was just thinking like OK if these
islands are like at least semi independent once they when they
start like each like each group of like general group of like
queer people, they have slightly different cultures.
To you know to a degree and and we all kind of know that too
like OK I was thinking like all right so if you have an island
full of lesbians, like what are they, what are they going to
come up with as their system And you know it's a little bit less
like formal and they have like a matriarch and it's you know
somebody who's given that title of like it it it's kind of a
almost like a parental title and then you know the the the Gale
Island. Alexandra society has a just has
a mayor and it you know it's a little bit more like a like a
city structure and then the Aeronautica has like the the
Triumph written I just thought that was like a cool thing for
that was it was something like I think it was like my idea was
that the hospital and the university and I'm like a like a
science place or something and that and and that each of those
three like key. Pillars of of the island has the
representative and then the the Buccaneers sort of like the you
know consensus chaos of you know every captain is their own
representative and and then I was like OK they can't so
they're going to vote to pick like people to represent like
the whole but I thought that was kind of cool have everybody has
a little bit of a different system but they all interact
with each other all the time. And when they have to get down
to, you know, making a huge decision that's going to affect
everybody there, they they still have a system in place for like
consensus across all of the different communities.
That was awesome. I really enjoyed.
I really enjoyed that. And my my only complaint is that
I wish there was more book. Yeah, which is always a good
complaint to have with a book. One of the things that I really
loved reading is Jason witnessing this island for the
first time being like, Oh my gosh, all these people are being
themselves. So in the book, the capital of
Sapphos is New Hope, and this brought back a core memory I
kind of forgot about. So when I was about 12 or 13, my
family visited New Hope, PA. And I don't know if you know
that town at all, but it's a place where the 1st place I saw
where pride flags were on basically all the businesses,
all the houses, there were so many pride flags and people were
just being themselves. Like it was the first time I saw
same sex couples holding hands and kissing publicly, not caring
about it. Anyone what anyone thought and.
Growing up, my family would make jokes about gay people.
So like in my head, it's not that they weren't accepting, but
it's just like they were a joke and it was just like never
something I personally witnessed.
So having this town and me witnessing all this, it just
really opened my world and I remember the feelings and it's
exactly what Jason was feeling when he witnessed this island
and. So thank you for capturing that.
I I'm so glad that it it works out and then and it like impacts
people because that was the feeling I wanted to capture of
this. What?
What is it like the first time you truly see your community and
know that other people like you exist and they are happy and
they have love and they have family and they've built a whole
world where we can be ourselves? And I just was like, OK, I'm
going to like, pour all of my feeling into this and and hope
that it, you know, reflects back on their reader when they're
reading it. It was beautiful.
And Fiora let me borrow her book.
And so she has notes in her book and I loved, like, being able to
read it while I was reading. And she asked a question, What
would I have been if I was raised on Rainbow Islands?
And I know that was just a question for herself, but I am
actually curious what everyone's answers would be to this.
I know I would have realized I was trans way sooner.
Like, I always knew I wished to be a boy.
And the portrayals that I ever really saw trans people in like
media was like either. They were like on talk shows as
this big joke. Or they were in these like, sort
of attempting to be thoughtful documentary things where they
would portray trans people as like they were so miserable in
their previous life that it was kind of like, I have to change
my gender or I'm going to kill myself.
And I was like, well, I never really think anything like that.
So I must not be what they are because I'm not miserable.
And it took. Until my 30s.
Until I finally saw like a regular trans man who was like a
nerdy dude and had a happy life and just was a a guy.
That it clicked for me, though. I'm like, I could be this too.
And if I had been, you know, raised in a community like a
Rainbow Island, I would have known from like, you know, Tiny,
that people like this existed. And I could be that too.
Yeah. I want to read where that
thought kind of came from. So it was in Chapter 15 and it's
right after Jason like his plan to defeat the Krakenworks.
And everyone's like, yeah, we got to give you a cool nickname
now because you're you're success like Jason the Kraken
Slayer. And he's like kind of struggling
to accept himself as like a hero because he still has so much
PTSD from like the Christian Republic where he was just
hiding who he was and he views himself as a coward and.
Kind of things like that. And so there's this quote where
he says, and I'm quoting in the book here.
If I'd been raised in Rainbow Islands, I might have been
downright dull, a quiet kid who stuck to himself and spent a
large portion of his time reading.
Then again, maybe I wouldn't have escaped into books so often
if real life hadn't been so terrible.
And so, like, for me, that's exactly how I feel.
So like, I think we. You know, obviously we have a
podcast here about queer representation in media because
it's important. And for sometimes that's all we
get. Like you're you explained to
Devin and it can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on what
we're viewing. But if it's just part of our
normal lives, we wouldn't have to like escape into media to see
ourselves. So I I, I agree with you.
I feel like the journey of like self discovery would have been a
lot simpler, maybe accelerated. If that was part of the society
we were just raised in right off the bat, and I think for Jason
too, he wouldn't have struggled with seeing himself as like a
whole, you know, complete person, a hero, things like
that, because he wouldn't have had all that PTSD and just that
little voice in the back of his head that's like, you're bad,
Like that comes from that, you know, upbringing he had.
So I feel like I related to him in that aspect of like.
Wow. Like, who would have Would I've
been? Would I've been like me now?
Or could I've been a completely different person if, like, I
never had that negativity to begin with?
So I I love that scene. I know I keep talking about how
I wish I knew earlier, but I feel like if I was on these
islands, I wouldn't have hated myself for so long.
Like internally, like, not even realizing that I hated myself.
But like, that's basically what I was doing as I'm like I
there's no way I like girls like.
And I was just like trying so hard to convince myself that I
was straight and I'm just like I can't do it.
And I hated it so much. And then as soon as I let myself
be me, I found my people and it's it's beautiful and powerful
and I wish we could have the acceptance that there is on
these islands. So I think it would help a lot
of people. Totally, yeah.
Be it's just a not having that trauma growing up because like
you're the most impressionable when you're developing as a as a
child into. Teenager into adulthood.
So that's the time period where we're encountering all of this
negativity. And it's it really is trauma.
Deep seated for a lot of people, different for everyone.
But I definitely would have been like the same as Caitlin, like I
just would have been able to be myself so much.
Quicker in life and avoided a lot of difficulty with within
myself and externally. Like my, my dad asked me if I
was gay in a really funny way when I was 13.
And I I didn't know at the time. So I was just like, no, I just,
you know, so I just was like, no.
I don't think I even really knew what gay was at the time.
So because it's just, you didn't see it.
And that's The thing is, if we were on Rainbow Island, we would
have seen it. We would have known, had so much
more freedom just to explore who we are, be that straight, queer,
whatever. So I think it could help
straight people as much as it could help gay people in a lot
of ways. And it's not bad to know what
else is out. There, yeah.
It's not like, why are we limiting ourselves?
I don't get it. And they, you know, I mentioned
like, you know, a lot of stuff in the book about sense.
People are having kids because there's many ways to have kids
and some, you know, queer people are buying Pan and all the other
stuff and. There are straight people there
too, because they have kids that are straight and they know
they're comfortable with themselves and accepting and you
know, they understand what all their options are and they can
be, you know, they're not shoved into it.
And they're not shoved into like super limiting gender roles
either. So they can just be whoever they
are in their natural personality with having, without having to
like conform to what people have taught them about what, you
know, men and women are. And I like that, you know, made
sure to like it's like straight people too, because their babies
are born there and you know, that's what happens.
I think whoever with that original tumble post came up
with that whole concept had half a brain cell because it's pretty
obvious that you can just. There are other ways to make
babies, guys. Just saying.
Well, and even like historically we have a lot of history of like
people who were like out with each other choosing to get
married and have kids, where as like kind of as a shield, but
also like they wanted to have families.
And they made those choices to like, like gay men was marrying
lesbian women. And they made those choices that
they wanted to have kids and and be married for that protection
of, like, society. But they were out to each other
and had, you know, romantic lives outside of that marriage.
And I was like, OK, there's so many options with rainbow eyes.
And also we have, you know, Aeronautica, Steampunk Island
with technology. Christian Republic has so like.
Artificial insemination like, you know, simple level and buy
and pay on people exist. And you know, eventually as time
goes on, there's more straight people.
There's, you know, and trans people like, can choose to have
kids. Like there's so many options of
like obviously lots of babies are going to be born.
And that's like, like when Jason first comes to New Hope, he's
like, wait a minute, there's kids here way younger then
because there's like a limit, You know, even the Christian
Republic has a limit on what they're going to.
What age they're going to send people because they of course in
their mind they believe, like queer young kids don't exist.
It's a sexual thing. So now now you're of an age that
you're making decisions about, you know, sexual attraction and
things like that. So that's that's kind of their
cut out. Now you're of an age that you're
making decisions about, you know, sexual attraction and
things like that. So that's that's kind of their
cut off of like. That what they believe.
You know, queer people exist as. Yeah, and kind of in that line
before Jason arrives. His understanding of queerness
is limited by the narrow minded Christian society that he was
raised in, but his concept of sexuality just expands
dramatically as he integrates into a true queer culture.
So do you feel like exploring Rainbow Islands is meant to be a
metaphor for discovering your own sexuality and identity?
For for like everybody too, yes. And and I was meant to be What
happens when you're really fully integrated into that queer
committee and you can see all of the different options and talk
to people who are both different and similar to you and and.
Really, that freedom, buddy. They just want to like hold
hands and kiss and be romantic and like, you know, that kind of
stuff where they're like, that's not into the sex thing.
And that's an option that a lot of people, you know, buddy, they
just want to like hold hands and kiss and be romantic and like,
you know, that kind of stuff where they're like, that's not
into the sex thing. And that's an option that a lot
of people you know that haven't been exposed to that community,
they don't know that that's an option or or.
Like they, you know, oh, I'm just I wanted to like get all
that stuff and and I wanted to show too.
Jason's struggling a little bit with some of those concepts.
There's so much new information being I wanted to like get all
that stuff and and I wanted to show too.
Jason's struggling a little bit with some of those concepts.
There's so much new information being good conservative negative
view of queerness. Even though he, you know, he
knows he's queer. He's.
Comfortable with that to a certain degree.
Learning all these different things about the various like
sexualities and genders and things like that.
He struggles a little bit with getting those concepts a certain
degree, learning all these different things about the
various like sexualities and genders and things like that.
He struggles a little bit with getting those concepts and kind
of mentally corrects himself too, because it's like it's OK
when. You're new to your identity and
you're new to the community. You're going to make mistakes.
You're going to have jizzes and kind of mentally corrects
themselves too, because it's like, it's OK When you're new to
your identity and you're new to the community.
You're going to make mistakes. You're going to have bad
thoughts about people because that's what you've been taught.
And it's OK to have those feelings and those thoughts, But
you got to, like, teach yourself to get out of it and really,
really accept other people no matter what their identity is.
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because I think that another
big part of Jason's journey that kind of influences everything
you're just talking about is the deconstruction that he goes
through. And I found that to be very
timely because a lot of people are publicly posting on social
media their journey of deconstructing like a lot of ex
evangelicals, at least in America, and as so it seems to
me like, as Jason spends more time with.
The Rainbow Folk, he unlearns that internalized like misogyny,
homophobia, the conformity, like all that stuff he was that he
was like indoctrinated into essentially in the Christian
Republic. And personally, I found this to
be a really realistic and relatable aspect of Jason's
journey. So I'm curious if that came from
personal experience or that was just something you were
integrating? Into the story based on like
the. Tumblr post.
But like curiously. I wasn't raised like super
Christian or super restricted, but I know a lot of people like
homophobic and transphobic. But like personally, I wasn't
raised like super Christian or super restricted.
But I know a lot of people who have a lot of different
experiences and I basically like just projected.
Like, what if I had been raised in this, you know?
Evangelical Christianity culture, what would I have felt
like? What would I've been thinking
and that kind of like, you know this pushed stuff to a higher
level of things that I did experience.
So and then I again, I've like, you know read comments from
people and I've talked to people who were raised in much more
restricted. Cultures of homophobia and
transphobia and and negativity and and what what they were
feeling like too. So I was trying to kind of
integrate those two pieces of like my true experience and then
like what would it have been like to be raised in a much,
much worse conditions. I mean, obviously like it, it
hits you anyway because our society is like that.
You're getting those messages. Even if you're not conscious
about that, you're getting those messages.
I'm just like, let's like pump this up to a higher level.
Yeah, absolutely. And so to me, it felt really
relatable. And I'm just curious if Caitlin
and Bree, you you found that to be relatable growing up in
America also? Yeah, it was for all the reasons
I've kind of already stated and also through Jason learning
about the amount of different. Ways that people can identify
and the different culture within those that are out there.
That was really relatable for me because there was a time period
in my life where if you had said the words non binary I would
have had no fucking clue what you were talking about.
And now and then learning about it like and kind of like Jason
and my mind, it was like. Oh, that makes sense.
And so you're all of those prior ideas that you had about things
kind of get demystified and kind of like, OK, it makes sense that
that I can let go of that now. So I mean, and that that was a
big thing for me, is finding out that I didn't have to think of
myself as within a binary. So like, just going, I don't
have to be classified. It's basically it like I have
freedom and that gave me a lot of relief and joy in my life
that I didn't have to worry about doing that to myself
internally. So I really, really freaking
love Jason. Like, this is literally one of
the best. This is like my.
This book really got me. I'll just put it that way.
Bree can't even figure out her words.
I can't. She loves it.
It's I read a lot of books in a year, and this is in my top two
books that I've read this year. I don't remember, like,
homophobic stuff happening growing up.
I think I just wasn't aware of it.
I I was sheltered, but like, not like consciously sheltered.
I went to a Catholic school until through 4th grade.
Some of 5th grade I think. And I mean I also failed
religion incredibly every year. But that's a whole another
story. I could not pay attention to it.
I didn't care. So I didn't have to go and learn
anything because apparently I learned Jackson.
But anyway, you actually, yeah, it's just more of AI could sit
there for an hour and do nothing.
I have a lot of patience. So I guess, I don't know it it's
just ingrained in you subconsciously, I guess that
it's not OK somehow 'cause you don't see it.
So it's like it's man and woman and they're together.
And yeah, so I'm I'm glad that I didn't have like, people in my
life who were like completely homophobic and like, completely
against it. And I come across people now and
I'm just like, how, how can people be like that?
But yeah, so I found it relatable in the fact that I
understood because like, I knew of other people who were like
very, very religious and morals. Like you had to do this.
And it's like not even just for sexuality, but like they
basically define your entire life and you have to follow a
made-up book. Yeah, Anything else you want to?
Like I said, it's the worst science fiction book I've ever
read. And the key is that what Rainbow
Islands is really showing for me is that like knowledge is power.
And that knowledge and the and the setting of Rainbow Island
gave Jason agency to make a choice.
So not only did he not know there were choices before going
there, because like like you said, Devin is just like gay.
Or straight. That's it.
But then when he gets there, he's like, oh, there's other
options. So, like, things I didn't know
about. So knowledge is power.
And then he had the agency to make the choice because
constantly it's reinforced to him.
Like, hey, you can pick your name.
Hey, if you tell us you're a boy, we believe you.
Like whatever you say, you identify with, if you want to
identify, that's cool. We accept you as you are.
You know, I think that's really the key.
And that's where, like our reality in America clashes with
what we would like it to be, which is Rainbow Islands.
Because here there's rules. Enforced, whether you're aware
of them or not, or like propaganda, that's enforced
whether you're aware of it or not.
And so that shapes how you think because you don't know there are
options if you're only taught it's this or that, this or that.
But it's like it's not just this or that.
And once you realize that it's, it's liberating, which is what I
think Jason feels. But I also want to, just before
we move on to the next question, just because I don't want anyone
who like actually does is religious and has faith like to
think that they're wrong for feeling like that.
Like it just because the three of us are not religious.
Like, it's not. We're not saying, like you
shouldn't believe in anything because just like in the book,
Jason learns that there's still, I believe there's a church.
And that people still believe in God.
And they. Yeah.
And. There was there's specifically
there's a church in New Hope that he like walks past and he's
really surprised to see it and they're like Oh yeah, no, some
people still believe. And I just kind of throwing that
out as like there are accepting churches that are very like
queer friendly. And I just was like, obviously
there are going to be some people who make those like
deconstruct from within and you know, take the, the homophobia
and the transfer be like out of their Christian belief and.
You know, still still have faith in God and Jesus and believe in
like that kind of stuff. But but taking out all that
negative stuff so that they can believe.
Like, you know, God loves me as I am.
And there's plenty of, like, you know, in real world.
Like there's plenty of gay and and trans and queer Christians
that truly believe in our, you know, faithful and all that
other stuff. But at least wanted to put old
people who embrace both, and that's fine.
But I didn't want to, like, dwell on it too much because I
was kind of not, you know, I just wanted to make sure it was
at least acknowledged in there. That's like, it's fine if you're
still Christian, as long as you're not, like, feeding into
that hate of yourself and your community in there.
That's like it's fine if you're still Christian, as long as
you're not, like, feeding into that hate of yourself and your
community. Yeah, that's really important
because I think sometimes we forget to mention that, you
know, even though the three of us aren't, don't identify with
being Christian or aren't religious in any way, that
there's nothing wrong with that. Like it's like any any other
identity, you be who you feel like it's you.
If that's what you believe, that's what you believe.
And we're going to love you regardless of anything but
moving away from the religious talk because we've talked about
it quite a bit. So throughout the book, Jason's
dead name is never used once. Was that an intentional choice?
Yes, so really early concepting this, I was thinking about like
how am I going to write this without like.
Misgendering him at the beginning of the book because he
doesn't really know he's trans and doesn't know that's an
option. And then I was like, wait a wait
a minute, what if I did this like first person instead?
And I was like, oh, actually the whole thing would work better in
first person because it's like his personal emotions, his
personal journey. And it's a very popular option
for YA because it really gets you into that person's POV.
And then I'm like, Oh my God, then I never have to make up a
dead name for him. I don't know what it is because
it's not important. I.
Love that. I love that.
That was one of the first things I noticed reading it and I was
like, genius writing. Like even later on when it's
when they get Rebecca out of the hole, it's it's not.
I just love it. I love it, all right.
In chapter 4, Jason mentioned something called a boundary
name, and for me this was a concept I was very unfamiliar
with before reading the book. So I was wondering if Devin you
could explain what a what a boundary name means in the
context of like the story. I I don't think, I don't know if
that's an actual term, but it was just something that I was
trying to like, convey as an idea of, like when you're like
exploring that trans identity, you're trying to pick a name
that's like safe. So you're like you're not bold
enough yet to to take a fully, firmly gendered name.
But you don't want to have, like, your current gender
either. So you're trying to pick a name
that's like unisex or sounds unisex.
You know, you're going to go with like, maybe Chris, because
people might interpret it as either Christopher or Christina.
You might pick like Danny because that could be Danielle
or Daniel. You know, you're like, you want
to pick that in between kind of safe option that you're like not
going to scare people too much or make them feel weird.
And I was like, OK, that definitely is something a lot
trans people experience because you're a little bit uncertain
yet about, like, really going for it and expressing your
identity fully. And, you know, just to send,
like, I'm putting it out there because you're a little bit
uncertain yet about, like really going for it and expressing your
identity fully. And, you know, just to send,
like, I'm putting it out there now that I, you know, I'm
picking my gender and I don't care what you think about it.
Yeah. Thank you.
I think I figured that's what he was going for.
But I like, I really love that explanation because like at the
point like Jason was really trying to figure out like a who
he is and like what do I call myself which is a a very
interesting thing to have to figure out like not only like
who what do I identify with but like who am I like what was his
power and words and names and things like that.
So I I like that kind of concept like as Jason's figuring it out
like the name shifts just like little by little until like.
He's like Jason. Jason, that's the that's the
one. That's me.
All right. So it wouldn't be a top tier
queer book if there wasn't a romance, right?
So as Jason comes to Rainbow Island, he he he meets Sky, the
queer Buccaneer, which we love. We stand our bisexual pirate
queen. We love her.
And that relationship, first of all, is so just adorable.
It's adorable. One aspect of their relationship
that I really love is how Jason as it progresses, Jason is very
self-conscious when he's on their first date and how
different the relationship with Sky is.
Then like Rebecca that's like hit like what he's kind of
contrasting them with and we as the reader.
So with Sky, Jason's like a very openly dating her as a man and
is and you know, as his true self.
But at that point where they're like having their first date or
they're starting to date, he's at the point where he's like,
still doesn't feel like his body matches with who he is.
I think at one point he's like damn boobs, which I thought was
hilarious. And so because of like the body
dysmorphia a little bit, he kind of doesn't feel like quote like
a real man. So personally, having never been
on this particular journey, I'm curious like what is the process
for like reconciling like? Physical and emotional gender
expression, because that seems to be what Jason was kind of
like going through at that point.
Yes. And a lot of it is that, you
know, is a very personal journey for every different queer
person. And some trans people can't ever
really feel comfortable in their bodies until they have like a
full physical surgery, and others don't want any surgery at
all. And there's like a whole range
in between. And I wanted to at least
express. Some of that struggle, because I
struggle with that too, along for a long time about, you know,
I can never really like a real boy because I have a girl body.
And then I wanted to kind of express that kind of the twofold
of like speaking directly to the trans community and, you know,
especially even like younger people who don't understand
their identity yet or aren't out, and also just sharing it
for sister other people to understand what that feels like.
And having, you know, a young character like Jason figuring
out his identity, it was a really great character choice to
have somebody being able to share that for both sides of
that kind of leadership. And I one of the other really
specific things I wanted to put in there was having an older
trans man be his mentor, that he can talk to somebody who's
completely comfortable in his identity, comfortable in his
body. He's got, you know, he's got a
woman in every port or whatever. Like, he's just like this
complete, like total badass guy that's like everybody loves him.
And I wanted Jason to have that experience of seeing, like his
future, basically a future possibility for himself that I
could, I could be accepted in the community, I can be
respected. I can have, you know, romantic
relationships. People aren't going to misgender
me and judge me. I can just be myself.
I can be happy and comfortable with my body.
And I have these like, conversations that he has
pretty, you know, real guttural, like conversations about
physical body parts that he has with Captain Agasi, his his
mentor. And Jason has part of, like that
journey of understanding, like he starts to become a little bit
more comfortable in himself and understand like no matter, no
matter what the shape of my body is, that doesn't determine who I
am. And I can start to understand,
even if I'm not 100% comfortable with my physical self, I'm not
going to be judged by what I look like.
I'm going to be accepted for who I am and who I tell people I am.
So his, his, some of his dysphoria starts the lesson as
he finds himself in this community of acceptance.
And like I I very much changed my own view of myself and my
body over time. And I'm way more comfortable
than I've ever been before. And it's just, you know, part of
it is just accepting myself and being living in a world where,
you know, all the people that I interact with, like, see me as a
man and treat me as a man. And that changes so much about
any kind of negativity. I felt about like how I might
look and how you know things like that.
So I wanted to put some of that in there and like so and I'm
like, you know, Captain Agasi is sort of also kind of like a
fantasy future self for me, whereas in the same way that
Jason is like a fantasy past self for me.
I love that so much. Yeah.
I just it felt really real and it was really I I I like the
first person choice, like you said, to really like get really
understand through Jason's own thoughts like.
How that whole process kind of goes and what he feels and like,
the action reaction, like when he meets a gusty and things like
that. So yeah, thank you for writing
that. I love that part in the book.
It's really well done. So I have a little small passage
from the book that I noted immediately after I read it
because it struck me and I just wanted to get everyone's
reaction to it so I will read it out loud.
That's one of the best things about being a Rainbow person.
We can make our own families with only people that love and
understand us. And family.
Yeah, but just the concept that family isn't blood.
Blood. I mean figuring out who you are
and then once you accept yourself, if you didn't from the
beginning, I mean I found, I guess, who I would call my
family after coming out. And like, I mean, no one's in
the same state as me, but online it helps.
I think it's true. Especially in the queer
community like you have. You find your family because
blood isn't always going to be there for you.
But I thought it was really interesting an interesting
choice to have a a actual blood relative of Jason also in the
island like Jason's cousins there.
And so I thought that was interesting too.
Like it seems like they get closer because like the curtains
gone. Like they're just like being
themselves and like it, it bonds them closer together.
So it also shows that like families can be healthier if we
stop trying to force people into boxes and just let them be and
just. Love people for who they are,
like blood relation or not. So I like that choice to have
like an actual blood relative there too.
And it's also. Of of relationships and family.
And it's also just like, you know, what are like the chances
of another person in your family of origin being queer is
incredibly high. So you know, that's just like
remember to be open to that possibility and whether they're
out or not. You never know who's going to,
you know, turn out whatever you know, cousin, aunt, uncle,
whatever. Like, you never know.
Somebody in your family also might be queer.
And you got to be open to the possibility that maybe someday
they'll reach out to you and and you'll be able to develop, like
a positive relationship with them.
A lot of the family stuff was really, really hard to write
because, again, I wrote this in November 2016.
After like finding out that some of my family members had voted
for, you know, who, and I went no contact with them
immediately. So I have a very awkward,
strained relationship with my family because parts of them I
don't talk to at all. And other parts of them it's
like this kind of like these these subjects that we just
don't touch. And it it feels like I kind of
like, divorced my family in 2016 and that was all the, you know,
all of the like. Gut reaction.
Stuff that Jason has to his family is like really honest and
in the moment. So some of that stuff when I I
was rereading it this week because it's been a while and I
was like, oh, I yeah, that was straight from the heart.
Some of that stuff, that feeling of like love and hate twined
together and this anger about why, Why would you do this to
me? Why would you view people like
me like this when you had to know, You know, like you got to
know. And why you supporting this
negativity and this hate when you know you've got to have a
gut feeling that I'm one of them.
So why is it like this? And and then you know, of course
all the acceptance of the Rainbow Island and building your
own family and how quickly he starts to develop these really
deep relationship with people he literally just met, you know
like weeks. And he's just, he feels closer
to them than he's ever felt his own blood relatives.
And that's a very career experience that a lot of people
have. Like I, you know, I have people
in my life now that I've had for years and they they feel like
family. They're people that I rely on.
They're people that like have my back.
And I never have to ever, ever question my acceptance with them
because they're, you know they've been from day one
accepting because they're most of the time they're all so
queer. And even those who aren't, you
know, I, I, you know, I am who I am up front.
And they got to know right, right away.
And if people aren't accepting like, you just kind of let them
go. I think the realization that
you're able to like it's OK to let blood relatives go is very
powerful in itself because so many people are like, oh, that's
your parent. That's your brother, cousin or
aunt or uncle. And like, you have to, like, be
OK with them, forgive. Them like, no, If they're really
not good for you, just let them go.
I'm sorry. Like this is something like, I
had a therapist tell another person it was like root therapy
that they should try talking to them.
And I'm like, no, they don't have to if they don't want to.
They're terrible for them. They're constantly beating you
down. You don't need people like that.
So just seeing Jason find his family and literally but it it's
just you see how much happier he is by the end and it's really
nice to see. Yes, Happy queers.
It was very That was the best part, though.
Yeah, the best. Part is the happy queers.
All the way. So happy, can we please have ATV
show? That's.
Called that Happy Queers with just like a bunch of queer
people living in one house. Be like happy feet, except with
queers. A really weird concept.
You've you've been in here, you know it's crazy.
So, Devin, I was on your website because I love to do my research
for these interview type things, and I noticed that you have a
playlist for the book. Can you talk a little bit about
how you chose the music for you for it?
Not you? No worries.
I I do playlists for a lot of my books and it's kind of like a
combination of like vibes and I get the answers and then things
that like remind me of like the plot stuff and I just like to
and it all, I'm like really picky.
So it has to be something that I know I can listen to like many,
many times. So there's sometimes like this
song is super fitting, but I'm kind of tired of that.
That's where, like, you know, I listen to it once and I'm like,
yeah, that's cool, but. Not not making the playlist.
So it's got to be something. I'm like, I know I'm going to
listen to this probably like 50 times while I'm writing this
book. It's got to be something that I
really, really like. So that's I like the Rainbow
Island. And some of them, I really
randomly stumbled on some of those songs and I was like, oh,
that one, that one's perfect. Like some stuff I knew, like,
oh, you know, some songs I like. I'm like, yeah, that's going to
go on the playlist. And other stuff I just randomly
stumbled on and they were perfect fit for, you know the
feeling at the time. I like Run is I call that Sky
song, 'cause that really reminds me of that feeling of Sky is
like the freedom of her and the the playfulness of that kind of
emotion. And I I was like that's that's
her song for sure. That's going on the playlist.
That's so bad. I love that.
That's awesome. What do you think the benefits
are of having a playlist for the book?
It's. It gives me the.
Mindset of the book itself and it it kind of ties in like that
emotional feeling and it helps to kind of give me like a like a
parameters around the work itself.
It's like, OK, so I try to make my playlist roughly around 45
minutes or something because that's about as long as I can go
at one time really good and focused and then.
I needed to like take a break and walk away, like even for
like physical health to get out of the chair.
So I try to put a roughly that many songs on there.
And then I will a lot of times go into a writing session and
just hit play on that playlist and go and and kind of get into
that emotional mindset of of what the book is or the
characters are. And it helps to kind of give me
the vibe. And it also is giving me like
almost like a time or two. And I can kind of feel like as
the songs change, like I kind of know where I am and like the
time. And it's just kind of nice to
have all of that, you know, musical accompaniment as you're
writing too. Sometimes it's hard in silence.
It's a little bit, sometimes a little difficult, to get into
that mindset. Well, it's great.
The Aura also does playlist for. Things, yeah, I do too.
And it's you do too. I just never thought of that.
I just. I just listen to music to.
I have to have music when I write over.
And over. I can't have music when I write,
but I like, will listen to me like, I will do like you Devin.
Like I'll have like, character playlists.
Or like, yeah. Was it remind me of, like, the
specific plot that I'm trying to plot out?
And I'll listen to it like throughout the day when I'm not
writing because that's what my mind wanders.
And then I'll be like, Oh yeah, And I'll like, solve problems
while, like, my brain's not thinking about it.
But when I'm writing, I need like silence or instrumental
music, 'cause I get distracted by lyrics.
Yeah, I have to do instrumental. The ADHD makes me need two
things going at one time. So yeah, like a lot of times
it's like the playlist is is songs that I'm familiar enough
with that it it it like the lyrics don't distract me, 'cause
it's like just something I'm like.
Used to. But there are times.
Background almost, Yeah, yeah, and there.
But there are times where lyrics can be kind of distracting to
me. And I do have like a like a huge
playlist of like, Interment instrumental stuff that I
sometimes pop on just for general writing sessions.
Or like if I'm feeling kind of like Squirrely that day and like
my brain won't settle down to like a lyrics type thing and I
get distracted sometimes I just put on like instrumental music.
So yeah, that's an option too for me, a lot of fun, like, OK,
I just need to see, hear, hear something to keep me active.
Sometimes I do it in silence because I get so, you know, I
sit down to write and I get so into what I'm doing and I just
actually keep going even though I'm not playing anything.
But it's kind of all mood based. It's vibes like you said.
So I have the biggest question we'll ever ask you.
OK, here it goes. Is there any chance we will get
to read more about this world in the future?
For example, here are some suggestions from our friend
Pete, a sequel about liberating the cut inversion camps or a
prequel about the first island inhabitants, or Captain Augusti
Augusti. I like part of you would really
like to go back and write stuff because it was such an amazing
quote. But part of me is like, I wrote
the story I wrote, and that feels done because that was
really what I was trying to express is like Jason's
emotional journey and this, you know, plot of like, basically
happiest thing of destruction. But you know, it.
I felt like when I finished it, I was like, that feels like,
done for me. That's the story I wanted to
tell. And I know, like, it's, it's a
really fun world. And I like a lot of people have
been like, what? Where's the sequel?
I'm like, I I don't know.
I don't know if I'm going to come up with an idea that's
going to like compel me so much that I'll go back to that world.
Like, I I love that world, but the story is the story and I
feel like I I finished it. Feel like that's fair and it's.
Fair. Story on its own.
Pete had two more questions for you.
One just a question about like. Earlier drafts of the book, if
there's anything you tell us about them.
Like, were they vastly different from like the final product or
anything you changed or like added or just any tidbit?
I wrote during Nanowrimo and it was like chaos.
Like it was, I really think like this book and a lot of ways like
saved me because it was so I mean I, you know early November
we didn't really know what was going to happen.
And and by the time of the election I I was looking at this
book going, I like, I have to finish this.
I have to keep going. It's so important to me and it's
like I would love to put this book out into the world,
especially the way things have gone.
And also just, you know, thinking like, I don't know if
I've been writing anything else, if I'd been able, if I would
have been able to keep going because it was so hard.
And like, I would struggle, you know, for weeks, I'd sit down
and it's like, I don't know how I can do this, but I kind of
felt like I needed to finish it for myself.
And and it just was like, I I made pretty much everything up
as I went. It's like chaos.
I sat down and I was like, what can I throw at them now?
They're they're they're in the ocean Krakens what's with
Krakens in and it was just entertaining myself day by day.
So just keep going and like there there was some incredibly
clunky run on sentences and like awful paragraphs and there were
entire chunks like pages long. There were days that were so
hard that pages long with me just like talking to myself
about what I can do next in the book.
So this is like a mess and chaos.
And by the and then I finished that first draft, I had one
Nanowrimo, which I'm kind of addicted to.
Nanowrimo. I win every year.
I finished it and I put it aside for a while and I picked it up
again and I read it and like obviously there's like huge
chunks that are immediately going to have to go because
they're not actually book. But as I was reading it, I was
like, this is surprisingly coherent as far as like the
overall plot, even though I totally was making things up as
I went along, I was like, how did this, how did my brain come
up with this in this highly stressful situation?
I don't know. I surprised myself.
I'm just reading the book. It was past week and I was like,
who knows? This is good, but I I cleaned up
the immediate work first. Like oh.
My God, I couldn't see immediate, really terrible stuff
1st. And then I sat down and like was
like, OK, what what, what really needs to like be like finessed
and fixed and whatever and like honest, like I've admittedly
like there a huge amount of that book.
I mean obviously like cleans the sentences and and stuff like
that. But a lot of that was just came
out purely as it is in the book, especially like a lot of the
emotional stuff, just it's the way it was in the first draft.
And I actually didn't have to. I was.
I did way less work than I thought I would have to do while
I was in the middle of that first draft.
I thought it was going to be like this is going to be a
nightmare to fix and that really was surprisingly not that hard
and and the subsequent drafts were much much easier because I
had already the base to go on. But then I knew where I was
going so that everything that felt like really like random and
extraneous. I would either like build on
that to make it more like, OK, this actually fits more in the
book or I'm like alright, that's got to go because that just
didn't go anywhere in the first draft.
But I'm surprised that it actually is semi coherent by the
end of that month because that was really hard.
Honestly, that is so amazing and I love that.
It was like a comfort for you to kind of like write it at that
point in time in your life because it's a comfort to read
it. So, like, I love that.
That's amazing. Like, truly, like, well done.
Thank you. Last question from Pete.
This may be a long shot too, but Pete wants to know if there will
ever be official merch for Rainbow Islands.
I'm sorry, what? Pete wants to know if there will
ever be official, like, merchandise.
Oh, a merchandise. For the book, I I've never
thought of that. I don't know.
I I can always like. I could always like, make a
T-shirt or something I've been like.
Have you ever seen those? Like, people will get sketches
done of their D&D characters? Yeah, I think there should be
like a whole sketch of all of the characters, and then they
can just be on a freaking T-shirt.
Yes, with the rainbow. Yeah, especially the Crew.
Like the the Pirates. Man, I need that.
The Buccaneer shirt. And in a.
Ship with the Kraken like trying to crack.
I'll be yeah, baby, I yeah, I haven't really thought about
that because, like, and it occurs to me, but like, that's
the the great thing about being indie is like, it's my book.
I can do whatever I want with it.
I don't have to ask, you know, a publisher for permission.
It's all mine. Yep, you need merch ideas.
We got them. We have way too many ideas from
Rush. We do well.
That's all the questions we have.
Devin, thank you so much for talking with us today.
We really appreciate it and loved getting to know you better
and the book before we sign off, do you have any final words for
the listeners at home? Just so, I think the world has
become even more difficult for queer people in the last few
years. And my hope is that something
like Rainbow Islands and other queer media out there can help
give us the strength to keep fighting, to show younger people
and people who aren't out to themselves yet that there's hope
and love and community and family out there for you.
Even in our times that we live in, like, share that love, share
that community. We're going to need that light
in all of this darkness. And, you know, remind yourself
that there are things fight worth fighting for.
There's family worth fighting for.
Yourself is worth fighting for. Don't put yourself in a box.
Don't don't hide yourself for you know to because of the
judgement of other people. Let yourself go to those islands
and be free. Be free with yourself.
Be free with each other. Accept each other and love each
other and and you know we can get through this together and
and that's you know worth fighting for.
Amazing. I'm going to.
Go cry. Yeah, making me cry 2 times.
That's so beautiful. You're really good at pulling on
people's emotions. I guess you should be a writer
or something, I don't know. To everyone at home listening,
make sure to check out Rainbow Islands to support Devon and
follow Devon on social media. Until next time, get it up all.
Lesbian Jesus. I don't know.
Like giving up all over the place.
Oh my gosh. Sorry.
That was a terrible outro. Bye everyone.
Bye. And with that, we've been big
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