Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy.
I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora.
Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of
queer media. Representation matters, and
we're. Here to talk about it.
Cheers, queers. What's on the big gay agenda
today, Fiora? Today is Book Club Woo Woo.
All right. For today's book club, we will
be discussing the latest installment of Heart Stopper
volume 5 by Allison Osmond. We are covering this because we
obviously love Heart Stopper. Just go back and look at our
content. We have many, many Heart Stopper
episodes. So.
Many. So many.
Because we just need to talk about this joke slash book
because it's incredible. So we hope this helps tide you
over until season three if you've been following us for our
like TV discussions. Because I can guarantee that
like, part of this will be in Season 3 for sure.
So we're going to talk about the book and then we're probably
going to speculate on what's going to go on in season three.
If you haven't read Heart Stopper volume 5, it's actually
online for free. If you just like, well, we can
link the webtoon. So apparently Alice like
releases it early as a webtoon because that's how Heartstopper
started. So you can like go read all the
books if you want, for free on the Internet and we can link it
below. So like, go read it.
It takes like an hour to read it.
It's a graphic novel. It's very easy to read.
If you're not into that, we will give a spoiler free review in
the beginning so you know what you're getting yourself into and
then when we jump to the spoilers, we will let you know
when we get there if you don't want to be spoiled.
Before we jump into that, we would like to introduce our new
host today. We have Alana here.
Elena. Elena, I'm so sorry.
That's just every, every first day of school of my life.
The aura, it's fine. It's always Alan, Elaine,
Alania. I'm so used to it, so no
worries. You got called.
Alan. Yeah, you'd be surprised.
You'd be surprised. Oh man, if you can, if you can
spell it right, you can't pronounce it right.
But if you can pronounce it right, you can't spell it right.
That's just been the curse since I was born.
As somebody with a weird name, I totally feel that I always knew
it was me and the roster. When there was a long pause, I
was like, that's me because they're like first name, I don't
know. Last name, I don't know.
And I was like, Yep. I know people who have known me
for like 3 years in high school and they still like call the
roster and they wouldn't get my name right.
I'm like, seriously guys, you've known me for how long?
Yes, spoiler Elena's name actually ends with an E, not an
A, but she decided she doesn't want to add the.
EI don't have issues when it's spelled like this.
That's the funny part. Except what the aura say.
It's fine. Oh, to be fair, I have it with
an E in. Oh the.
The notes. So, all right.
Well, thank you for joining us today.
We are so excited that the audience gets to meet you.
Thanks for having me, all right. And before we get into the
episode, of course I have to go through my giant spiel that I do
in every episode or almost every episode, cuz you forget
sometimes. OK, ready?
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Thank you. Thank you, Caitlin.
OK. So would you like to introduce
Hardstopper Volume 5? Who are you talking to?
You wrote the synopsis. Oh did I?
That's right. So according to Google, Nick and
Charlie are in love. They Harley said those 3 little
words and Charlie has almost persuaded his mom mum to let him
sleep over at Nick's house. He wants to take their
relationship to the next level, dot dot dot.
But can he find the confidence he needs?
And with Nick going off to university next year, is
everything about the change? What a conundrum?
That is the synopsis. That is the synopsis.
Volume 5 by Alice Osman. Osman.
Alice Osman.
Thank you. So OK so if you've if you've
read the book like all of the graphic novels to this point
this this volume happens before like the Nick and Charlie
novella which is basically takes place like as Nick's about to go
to university. So this is kind of like like the
lead up and spoiler there's going to be a volume 6.
So this isn't the last hard stopper volume, which is really
exciting because I think it was supposed to be, but Alice is
like, there's I just it's such a big universe, I I need one more
volume. So there's going to be a total
of 6 in the graphic novel series.
But then she has a couple of novellas about Nick and Charlie
also. So, like, this isn't the end,
but we're like, we're almost at the end, which is a little sad.
What are the odds actually rate 6?
And it's like, oh, but it's not enough.
I think people would love that. OK, so all right, so spoiler
free review. So without spoiling anything,
what, in your own words, like, what did you think of this book
overall? Did you like it and that kind of
stuff? I was prepared for this.
OK, so here is my one sentence, because when I hear a brief, I
think one sentence itself. One liner.
It is a very cute and super queer book that tackles
stigmatized issues in a healthy way.
I. Agree, Elena, What do you think?
I think it it stays true to the heart, Stopper vibes.
It does tackle issues that don't really get talked about,
especially in teen media especially that are becoming
more and more addressed specifically with queer
teenagers. And it's in a very healthy light
that you know, as she said, doesn't stigmatize, doesn't make
it feel like it's taboo. It's just teenagers being
teenagers, so. Yeah, I agree.
I think everything you guys just said, and I'll add, there's like
a lot of discourse going on and that I've seen recently in like
book social media about like YA in general where like I'm I have
an issue with this too where it's like, it caters to 30 year
olds. It caters to like my demographic
instead of like the demographic it's supposed to be, which is
minors. And I think that Alice truly
writes actual YA with like these are minors.
Like, they're not 18, they're younger than that, and they're
figuring out life and like transitioning into adulthood.
And I think this book is a stellar example of like what YA
actually is and should be, because Alice really keeps that
audience in mind, like you said. And I think that's why it feels
very healthy. The way she writes a lot of the
topics like the mental health stuff, the Nick and Charlie
trying to take their relationship to the next level,
it's it's written for the audience.
It's intended to. And I absolutely love that about
her writing. I think that she just nails it.
It's not like creepy, you know what I mean?
Like, sometimes it can be like really creepy, but I think it's
very sweet and it's felt authentic the way she wrote
every piece. And honestly, I really hope the
TV show adapts it in the style in which she wrote she wrote it.
Like to keep that audience in mind and stay true to like the
ages of Nick and Charlie and their friend group.
You said it's not creepy, but like if you grow up with the
type of content that they're catering towards, the older age
group, you think it's normal. So it's not normal?
No, no. When people are out here being
like red, white and royal blue is why I'm like how they're in
their mid 20s. What are you talking about the?
Author even says it's not why I Casey Mcquiston has even said
it's not why it's an adult book. Yeah.
And I'm like how? And, like, that's the
perception. Like, that's why I'm like, no,
it's not. That's like adult books.
Like Hard Stopper is YA, Percy Jackson is YA.
And like Rick Riordan's another one who writes actual true YA
for the audience it's meant to. And so I really, I like that
because honestly I think that talking going back to like, I
know this is a brief Caitlyn, but going back to like the
stigmatizing piece, like I think it's important for actual young
adults like transitioning into adulthood to learn about a lot
of these topics that was covered in in Volume 5.
About like exploring your sexuality like physically and
things like that and having those conversations because
often time it's like no, they're children, you can't talk about
that. So then like people are on
YouTube or like floundering to figure stuff out and make
mistakes. But like having conversations in
a healthy way, in an age appropriate way.
I think is some something huge that like why I can do really
well, like putting it in a fictional story.
And I think Alice consistently throughout her books really
handles topics like mental health and like how to
communicate with your family. Like when you're the minor, like
she does those things so beautifully and like the
conversations in it are just they feel so real.
So, like, I appreciate her writing so much for that because
I wish I had this when I was a kid and trying to like figure
out like, these really challenging topics that like,
it's weird to talk to your parents about or like, you talk
to your friends and they don't know anything.
They're also 16 like. Or they pretend to because
that's what the media tells them.
And like American media when it's quote YA has like 16 year
olds acting like 30 year olds And like I hate that because I'm
like that's not what being 16 is like.
And I think Alice nails it. Like all of the all of the hard
topics to like deal with she she handles them beautifully.
And I think these are really important books for for that
aspect and showing queer joy and love and normalizing those
relationships and all those pieces.
But she's such a great writer. Absolutely love it.
So, brief review, even shorter. It's a great book.
Go read it. It's fantastic.
It's easy to read into. It's a graphic novel, if you
weren't aware, so you get like pictures of Nick and Charlie and
all the characters, and it's very fast to read.
Yes. Yeah.
OK, so that was the spoiler free review.
So I think the best way to sum it all up is by rating it on the
Big Gay Energy Scale. So if you don't know what that
is, it's basically a scale of one to 10 or whatever you want.
It's not scientific, it's just based on queer love and
feelings. Except Caitlin thinks it's
scientific. You told.
Me. It was scientific.
I'm being facetious, Caitlin. All right, So the best way to
sum it up is, like, how much big gay energy did you think the
book has? So we'll let Kayla go first.
OK, so my scientific opinion, I think yes, because like I
actually do, was working on a scale that I forgot about.
It's somewhere in here. I'll keep working on it, but
it's really hard not to give heart stopper in general A10
because the representation is so vast and well done and it
doesn't stereotype people. People have feelings and they
talk about it. It's it's just very well done.
So it has to get a 10 just by based on representation alone.
Elena, what do you think? I mean, I kind of agree.
I'd say I'm very swayed towards a 10 because heart stoppers
always been very near and dear to my heart.
Heart stopper For me, it's something that's always made me
feel very seen as a teenager because I I was one of those
teenagers. I was boring.
I would go home, I would watch TVI play video games.
I wouldn't go out and party because I just didn't care to.
And just talking about the typical teenager things, I I
just wasn't interested. I was a theater kid.
I didn't care about any of that kind of stuff.
I was like, I'm, I'm just here. And like, like the the scenes
where they're all out of sleepover.
They're eating candy. That was what my friends did.
We didn't go drinking. It's like, yeah, but yeah, I'd
say solid 10 because just I feel very seen by this series, very
much theater. Kids, we party different.
We do. We played Cards Against Humanity
in a basement eating candy. When I was in college, we would
play Jackbox and then when we weren't playing Jaxbox, we'd be
playing like Naughty Dog video games, one person playing,
everybody else just spectating. It's like The Last of Us or
Uncharted. That was like the go to.
Honestly, I want to do that now I.
Know, right. It's so fun.
It is fun, OK, I'm going to be the oddball and give it a 20 out
of 10 because I. Didn't know that was a like, how
do you get to give it lower than A10?
You've never done that, even in the.
No, it's a hard stopper. I agree.
You can't give it lower than A10.
I'm going to go to 2010 because Tori appears and I wasn't
expecting it. That's so true.
And she gets an extra 10 just by showing up.
And like, I was, I felt so satisfied by her appearance and
what happens to her in this volume because like honestly,
Solitaire. Like I read Solitaire after
watching Horstopper and just that book sticks with me every
single day. It's so well done and
incredible. And just I love that Alice, like
she was always like story. You know, Tori's story's been
told like, I don't need to revisit Tori, so I love that she
did. She's like, no, we need to wrap
up Tori. And so, like, I wasn't
expecting. I thought she was done.
And so that was a nice little like for Tori.
It's true. I can't even have the words.
Just that I'm excited for more Tori and not just diet lemonade.
Tori I love in the next season I'm hoping that that happens.
I'm. Very excited for the casting for
Michael. It's like, yes.
Oh my God, the casting for Michael.
Yes, spoiler. Michael Holt is going to be in
it. Yay.
All right, let's just jump into the spoilers, everybody.
We're here. If you don't want to be spoiled,
stop listening. Google heartstopper, webtoon.
Go read the book, wait for the, wait for the show to come out,
whatever. Hopefully there's a movie about
Solitaire. I'd be down for that.
All right. Yeah, I mean.
I'd be down for adaptations of all of her work, honestly.
Honestly. Yeah.
OK, so let's do it. Let's jump into the book.
OK, so general likes and dislikes and would you read this
again? It was our first, like, talking
point. Truthfully, I would read
anything and have read most things that Alice has written.
I truly love her writing style, whether it's in graphic novel
form or like the novellas which are just like not short stories,
but they're basically story format.
Her drawing skills are also just she's so crazy talented.
I love her drawings like and it's just like it just it brings
me joy, it warms my heart. And like, you know, I've talked
about this in the brief section, but like, she does manage to
just insert life lessons that feel very grounded and not
forced into a story, which I love a lot of like YA, not YA
literature, but like shows to me feel like they're forcing life
lessons into it sometimes. Like, I don't know, but like
Alice doesn't. It's very seamless and it just
feels very like she's writing from a real place.
And it comes across that way, which I really love.
I also love that in her stories, it's not like a single point of
view. She manages to tell stories from
different characters, points of view, characters with different
backgrounds, characters from different ages.
Like she inserted like the teacher plot line in there.
And then like you'll have stuff from Elle, from Tori, and so you
get like intersectionality, you get points of view from
different people. And to me that tells a more
complete story. And you can see those life
lessons from different lenses versus just seeing it from
Charlie. At least in the graphic novel,
it feels that way. In the Nobel's they tend to be
like one, one or two. PO VS.
But like in this book for example, she one of the topics
is like having sex for the first time as like you know young
adults figuring that stuff out and she had multiple people talk
about this from like committed relationship point of view.
Like Tao talks about it and then like Nick and Nick and his
friend group and there's different, like people with
different queer identities and like different sexualities.
And they're having these kind of conversations together, which I
think is so, so important and just kind of like lacking in
media in general because it does help normalize it and show that
like, hey, we all have this thing in common.
Or like, I like the way that that topic in particular was
handled because it's like, hey, we are teenagers and don't have
shit figured out and that's OK. Like, she kept it very age
appropriate, which is not always the case.
And so, like, hats off to you ma'am.
Like you really like her books are just so good and they just,
they leave you with like warm fuzzy feelings at the end.
Who even when she's tackling like ridiculously heavy topics
like in Solitaire, it's like depression was like the main
stay of it. Like it's still like ends with
like happy feelings at the end. So I love that about her
writing. Happily ever after.
So this was the I've never read the books, the graphic novels
before, so Fiora had me read Four and Five for this, just to
get a background on what five was going to be about, because
Four wasn't really tackled in the show yet.
No, that will be the next season for sure.
Yeah, so this was my first introduction to the books and I
really enjoyed it. And but like, obviously since
I've seen the show first, I was basically just like watching it
because and like, the drawings helped because.
So I was just like watching the actual characters do it in my
head and like thinking, oh, how are they going to adapt this to
the TV show anyway? I just, it was a very nice and
relaxing read. I mean, it could be because I
was sitting in this like swingy chair in Mexico reading it, but
you know, I do. I brought this up before.
But I really do love that the book tackles these stigmatized
issues because people don't like to talk.
And luckily mental health has been getting better over the
years. But I know when I was going
through so much stuff when I was 13, it was just not talked about
and I felt like I was a terrible person and like I was weird and
broken. But having these characters
actually talk about what's going on in their heads, it's so
helpful. And I hope that this allows for
more conversations between peers, because you don't even
want to talk to your friends sometimes about it.
But knowing that, like other people go through it allows you
to be more comfortable. And it's not weird.
Like, it's not weird to go to therapy anymore.
It's just like, oh, you don't have a therapist.
That's weird. What trauma do you have?
Yeah, let's talk about a trauma. That's the best intro to meeting
people anyway. But that's why I love media in
general and why I love this podcast.
Because like, we do get to talk about these things.
I also love that in heart stopper in general.
Like the drama is usually external rather than the
relationship drama. Like, oh, you didn't talk to me
about this and oh, I'm jealous about you going out with that
friend. No, it's usually like college
and, well, university and parents.
All these external things that you have to deal with rather
than just like couples fighting with each other, which stresses
me out. I don't know about you though.
No, I agree. That's my you heard me rant
about it. We did a High School Musical
show. When they force relationship
drama, it's so annoying versus heart stopper.
There's relationship tension and quote drama with Nick and
Charlie and the other couples. But it's not like you're saying
it's not just, like weird, forced stuff.
It's like things that happen in real life.
It's like we're both stressed about these things and that's
causing issues. Like that's how people work.
So yeah, I I enjoy that. And it it shows that, like, kids
go through this stuff too. Because a lot of times, like
with younger people, it's like, oh, your problems aren't that
big, your problems aren't that serious.
But like, yeah, they can absolutely be serious.
Like and should be taken seriously, You know.
It gives like validation to minors, which is important, you
know. I hate when people act like kids
and like teens. Problems aren't real problems.
Like, yes, they're still learning life, that everything
they go through is the end of the world to them because that's
all they know and that is their world.
Yeah. I think my favorite part about
this book was definitely kind of, I think you guys kind of
touched on it, but like the whole idea that teenagers, they
just want to be treated like adults.
And this kind of. I think the whole series has
kind of tackled it throughout the throughout the series.
But I think especially in this one because of things like sex,
having sex for the first time and like with Nick going off to
university, it's this whole thing about I just want to be
treated like an adult which can be translated to.
I just want to be respected. That's really the long and short
of it. A lot of teenagers, when they
say they want to be treated like an adult, it's just they don't
want to be treated with respect because adults are automatically
respected, which when you become an adult, you kind of learn.
That's not true, but not necessarily.
But it's. I love the way it's tackled
where like you have the prime example of Charlie's mom's
trying kind of. But Nick's mom, Nick's mom's
already there. Honestly, she's already there.
Sarah Nelson, we love. Olivia Coleman we do.
She's the best. Sarah Nelson wins like mom of
the year. Mom of the year, for sure.
I always forget she has a name. It's just Olivia Poleman to the
two of us. Sarah.
Yeah, she's just one of my favorites for sure.
Yeah, I just love the series as a whole, so.
It's just, yeah, it's just beautiful.
I wish I had that. The long and short of is I wish
I had this when I was a kid. I know.
Seriously. So thank you Alice for creating
this so that other little queeries or just youths in
general have this media to, you know, learn from.
It's important, like these topics are very it's not queer
focus, it's like normal issues that teens go through, so it's
for everybody. It is.
And it's not just like a book of fables.
Like, it's also just like entertaining and fun and very
sweet, you know? It's just teenagers being
teenagers, but they're also queer, yeah.
And I'm here for it, yes. OK, So what scenes did you enjoy
and, like, want to scream about? I think we could just easily
transition into the sex stuff because I thought that that was.
I wouldn't see that. I didn't see that coming.
I thought it was really great. So specifically talking about,
like the way they did sex education in the book.
OK, so I really, I really love this because it was portrayed in
a very realistic way. Like I'm assuming did you guys
have OK because we grew up in America.
If you're not aware and listening in America, sex
education ranges from actual education to Christians coming
in and trying to convert you depending on where you live.
So I'm just curious, when you guys, did you guys have quote
sex education in like a public school I guess or like high
school or lower or whatever. Like, did you guys have that and
what was your experience? What was it like?
The class or whatever if you have?
OK, so I didn't have the scene that you're going to talk about
in a little bit, but I remember in 6th grade they split the boys
and girls because you can't learn the same things,
apparently. I think we did learn the same
things, but it was that the boys couldn't be trusted to be around
the girls learning about it. So we, I don't fully remember,
but I remember they gave us like diagrams of everything, like
body types and like teaching every like, they went all in on
that. I was like really surprised
because we didn't do that in high school.
But this is 6th grade. And they were like, OK, so now
this is a male anatomy and all of this.
And I was like, I don't remember what we learned.
I think I just kind of shut down.
I was like, OK, I'm very embarrassed by this.
This isn't something we talk about.
And then high school health was just basically talking, don't
drink and do drugs. So that was the extent of that.
But we learned more about in 6th grade, which I feel like is a
little odd, but I guess so. Yeah, I had like in 6th.
I don't even know if it was 6th grade.
I think it was like fifth grade or something.
It was biology. It wasn't like sex Ed.
It was more like female biology, male biology.
And of course, they split up the genders, 'cause that makes no
sense when you're trying to learn the same thing to, like,
explain biology to you. But the sex, which is not sex
Ed, like in America, like, there's there's biology and then
there's like, sex Ed. So, like, the sex Ed for me
happened, I think, in high school and it was abstinence.
Class is what it was. Where they're like, you'll have,
it's basically the scene for Mean Girls where they're like,
you'll get pregnant and die like, that was my sex Ed,
basically. And they made you sign like an
abstinence pledge, like that was sex Ed.
So what they have in heart stopper is not.
I grew up in the South where like, people don't have sex.
Like that's the mentality that like if you don't have sex, you
won't get pregnant, you will get STI is like and you'll be fine.
And it's like that's not realistic and that's insane.
So then you end up with the opposite in data wise where you
have more teen pregnancies because you're not teaching
people the right stuff. So anyway, that's America.
So I do love the way it was handled in Heart Stopper because
they were actually teaching them like lessons about sex, like how
to have safe sex basically where it's like the condom
demonstration and stuff. But I love the way it's
portrayed from the kids point of view that like ultimately what
they're learning is useless because that's not what they
want to know. And Charlie's like we learned
how to do the condom thing last year.
Like why are you teaching us the same thing over and over again?
So it it felt very much like what I learned in school, which
is like the the basic like nothing where they're like don't
get STI, like sexually transmitted infections, like
this is how you prevent pregnancy.
So it was very much like, I don't know, like not super
helpful. So I love that the way Alice
portrayed, like the kids asking all these questions to the
professor and they're like, they're like, well, what what
is? What?
Is it too young to have sex? Or like how do you, how do you
be good at it? Like people have all these other
questions that they would like to ask.
So it's just like the curiosity of kids that age and like what
they actually want to know, which is not like sexually
transmitted infections, that kind of stuff like.
So I do really enjoy that aspect of it.
I will say, but it is bringing more back.
We did talk more about it in high school.
We also had a very cool health and gym teacher, I mean, who
used to take us for field trips to get smoothies for gym.
But anyway, that's not relevant. And yeah, he just let people
ask. And I feel like it's important
that teachers just, like, let the students ask whatever they
want to ask, because then they're actually going to learn.
Yeah. One of the questions they asked
was how do you know when you're ready?
Like, because I feel like that that is the thing that's on all
of their minds, really not so much the, I guess the, the
condom stuff or all that kind of questions, especially with like,
that's the only lesson you get every single year, You know what
I mean? Like it's like.
I have a question for our listeners though.
Did you have to go through this condom and banana thing?
Because I don't know. I've never had to do it.
I don't know anyone who's had to do it.
So is this actually a thing, or is this just something in the
media? Yeah.
That's an excellent question. Yeah.
OK. So I want to talk about the.
Yeah, let me know. I've never done, never had this
happen. Also like that involves money.
So it's probably like depends on what school you went to.
Was there money in the budget for the bananas and etcetera.
OK. All right.
I want to talk about the I really part of this too is the
conversation that Nick ends up having with his friends and I
think it's with like Imogen and no, no, I'm sorry Sahar.
Imogen's not in the books. I apologize Sahar.
And in the in the in the show I'm sure this will be Imogen
because they're they're friends and his other like rugby lad
friends. So they're sitting together and
I think Sahar is talking about, like, how, you know, society
makes like, having sex, like this big deal.
And there's so much pressure to, like, do it.
And there's this guy in the class, Marcus, that was like,
bragging about it. And everyone's like, do you
really think he did this? Yes.
No. And she's like, I don't know,
even if he did, like, there's so much pressure to, like, do it.
He's probably just making people are pressured to say that
they've done things they haven't done.
And I just love Nick's response where he's very much like, but
who cares what everyone else is doing?
Like, just do what you need to do when you're ready.
Like, I love that little conversation.
Cause like, yeah, there's so much like pressure and fries put
on this like biological act that's like really insane.
And so I love that Nick's like just do what makes you happy,
like when you're ready essentially.
Which is important like because like for some people like like
asexuality exists that everybody wants to partake in this or like
feels the need to partake in this.
And that's also OK. So I thought this conversation
was really cute and really like important to be like do what you
want at your own pace too. Don't let other people pressure
you into doing things you're not ready to do.
I feel like they should also mention like, yeah, some people
don't want to, and that's OK because I feel like because
society is so at least America's society is so sex crazed in the
media that everyone thinks like you have to want to do it, but
it's OK if you don't. Yeah, I feel that big time that
was, That was me as a teenager. It was just like, what if?
What if you just don't really care enough to what, like
everybody in your class is talking about it and it's just
like, can we talk about video games?
Yeah, we're. Children.
That's what I wanted to talk about.
I'm 16. I just live here.
What? What's happening?
That is fair. At that time, I was still like,
I don't like men. That's.
Disgusting. Also, yes, I signed that absent
thing so fast. Like have sex with men.
Absolutely not. And I still stuck to that place.
Has never broke her pledge. I've never broke so.
I guess it worked. There you go.
Yeah, it was like that would require me to actually like 1 to
be with somebody in my class, which no.
That too. No, absolutely.
Not people in high school are are assholes.
Like people by school. We're all assholes.
So I'm just like why? It's a time when people are just
like a little hormones walking around and it's just like
everybody's terrible and it's like, who?
No, like wait till your 20s. You have your shit figured out
and people are more fully formed humans with brains that have
developed more. They are both of you to assume
that me, in my late 20s still have my shit figured out 'cause
I don't. I'm not saying you half have
your shit figured out, just you're closer to.
More of it, more of it's figured out.
But yeah, I I like that this normalizes kids being being kids
and not being forced into adulthood or like, into certain
aspects of adulthood. They're not ready to like it's
OK to do things at your own pace or not do them if they're not
for you. So I like that Alice normalizes
that by having this conversation with the friends.
Did you have anything else to say before I jumped to #4
Caitlin, as I already said, number 30.
Shit, yeah, hold on. I just think that we need more
pieces of media like this to normalize that it takes time to
get into the stage of relationship.
Not everyone's having one night stands.
I mean if you want, good for you.
But like, yeah, especially at 16, it's just not realistic
because I don't think 16 year olds are typically going out to
a club and just like whatever. And it doesn't matter how fast
you go with someone, just matters that you're both
comfortable. And I feel like consent is
getting like more relevant in the media but like that is one
of the most important things. And and I feel like there really
needs to be a class in school that is just focused on figuring
out how you feel about just feelings in general and how to
communicate. So basically I I think just
everyone they should the school should make everyone do group
therapy. I think that would be a great
addition. Just saying.
That is so crazy. Like never, never in school,
like with sex Ed, did they ever teach about consent.
That was the part that I like. I had to learn that from like my
parents, from like from family, from peers, never from teachers.
It was always like, you know, the basics of science and
abstinence and all that and STI and everything.
But it was never about, you know, make sure that you're cool
with it and that they're cool with it first before you do.
Anything and like repeatedly make sure because like there's
some things that may be off limits and it's OK to withdraw
consent that I think is the most important is just like just
because they say OK once that may not stay like that.
So keep checking in and I I love media that like checks in with
people because that is just another way to normalize it.
Yeah, I think I learned more from watching Degrassi the Next
Generation about consent than I ever learned in class.
And there's the episode of, like, Paige with her boyfriend.
Everybody assumes, oh, well, she consented because they're
dating. It's like, no, she didn't.
That's the thing. It's the presumption of, oh,
they're together, it's fine. No.
Even if it's your spouse, that's not how it works.
That is fair. School needs to learn some
things. School.
Yeah, I love how this, the place trying to teach you, needs to
learn something. The educational system needs to
be educated, and this isn't America.
We can only speak to America. This is our school system.
It's not just our schools. So our school system is dictated
by like boards that are run by parents.
And so a lot of this is parents feeling like it's not
appropriate for my kid to learn this, therefore nobody can learn
this. So a lot of the reasons why we
don't learn these things is because parents put their own
feet because they they don't want their kids to know this and
then they won't have the conversation with their kids at
home. So it'll be like they shouldn't
learn this in school. They need to learn at home and
they don't teach the kids at home.
So then everybody is robbed of the education.
That's partially why we don't have these conversations.
That's partially why when you have, quote, sex education, it
is about the clinical health care aspect of it because that's
OK. But you can't talk emotionally
because to have the consent conversation to some parents is
endorsing sex for kids and saying that it's OK, but they're
like, I don't want my kids knowing that it's OK Like it's
not OK. I don't think it's OK.
So you can't teach that. So, like, that's kind of how we
end up in this horrible, like situation.
That's why they're trying to ban books.
And shit. Like, yeah, I was about to say
I'd be very surprised if the students in Florida, in states
like Florida have access to Heart Stopper Volume 5 IF.
They don't have access to the dictionary, then who knows?
Oh my God. I know it's absurd.
But yeah, so, like, America needs to like engage with
reality. And like, so it's it is wild
that our media, like you said Caitlin, is obsessed with, like
sexualizing everything. When the society wants to
pretend, it's like puritanical and repressed and like teens
don't have sex. But like the media that you
have, like Riverdale and it's like that goes on for 100
seasons and it's like just the high school kids having sex.
So it's like make up your mind. Like either it happens or it
doesn't and they're like, it doesn't happen.
And then there's teen pregnancy. It's like people don't want to
live in reality, which I think is part of the problem, which is
why I like this book and and the way Alice really talks about
these topics because like these things happen.
Kids have these conversations, Kids have these thoughts and
feelings. Kids are trying to figure shit
out whether the parent wants them to or not.
It's part of growing up, you know, and to ignore it makes it
worse versus just like having an age appropriate conversation
about it. It's more harmful to ignore
these questions and pretend like it's not happening.
I could not agree more. So that's why I I enjoy pieces
of media that talk about it in an age appropriate way and
demonstrate that like, yeah, kids have these thoughts, they
need to talk about these things, like, you know, so Speaking of
that one thing I do love about this whole, like this is a queer
media thing, but maybe, maybe not.
But like, OK, so at one point, Nick is trying to confide in
somebody who isn't Charlie. And I forget if it's about the
he he does it multiple times. It's about like the college and
then like the the sex stuff and he tries to confide in somebody.
And it's it's hard when you're like queer, especially when it
comes to sex stuff. And like, you're like, I want to
talk to somebody about it, but like the only queer person I
know who will understand it's the person I'm dating and it's
weird to have that conversation with them.
So I like that Alice puts this in here because again, one of
the things she's really I've mentioned this before in hard
soccer. But one of the things that Alice
was really conscious about when she wrote this book was to show
that, like, just because you have romantic love and you have
that dream partner, it doesn't mean all of your problems are
magically solved. Like having a boyfriend, having
a girlfriend, having a partner, whatever.
It doesn't solve all of your problems like so and and Nick
and Charlie throughout the course of the book, like they're
fairly codependent, which makes the whole university thing a
struggle. And she really harped on that
this book. And so when Nick needs somebody
to really talk to who's unbiased, who isn't Charlie, I
love that, that aspect of it because it's important to have
people you can confide in who aren't your partner about
certain topics. I'm not saying to like don't
tell your partner things, but like sometimes you need to talk
it through with somebody else. So like, who can see this from a
different perspective? You know, 'cause like if if
Nick's trying to talk to Charlie about like university or
Charlie's obviously going to be like, well, I want you to stay
with me. So, like, Nick's like, I need a
third opinion, like to like tell me stuff.
So I loved it on the road trip with Tara and Elle.
Like he's able to bond with them and like couldn't find in them
and they're able to give him like an honest opinion.
They're like, well, Nick, you look really happy when we're
here. Or like, Nick, I don't.
Is that really what you want? Or like they were able to give
their kind of advice. So I love that the the
normalization slash showing the importance of these types of
like friendship support systems outside of like your romantic
support system, I think is so, so important because always the
prize is always like your romantic love and like you'll
live happily ever after once you have that person.
But like, yeah, no. Life is full of ups and downs
and changes and that kind of stuff.
And like, having a partner doesn't like, make all of that
easier, like, you know, So I think it's important that she
shows that, like, friends and support systems are really
important outside of romantic love.
I love that she keeps, like, harping on that point.
You know, I love like kind of just adding on to that, like the
whole, I think you mentioned the Nick trying to find people to
combine and especially about trying to have his first time
with Charlie. It's just like because it's a
very unique relationship for him.
It's it's a boy with a boy and he doesn't know anybody else.
In that situation, because it's a very specific situation he's
in and he's like trying to text like I think it was Psy.
He's trying to text one of his rugby friends and he's like,
well, he's straight, he wouldn't understand.
So it's like, OK And then like I don't remember if it was like
Tara or somebody's trying to text and he's like, well, that's
that's, I mean they're she's a lesbian.
So it's a different experience for her too.
And I don't even that's me presuming that she knows
anything in her relationship because you know they don't
share that kind of thing about their relationship.
So it's and it's not his business if they don't want it
to be. So you know, like he's not even
sure like who can I talk to this about?
Like I don't know. Who knows, I don't know who is
comfortable like how do I approach this especially over
text. It's like, yeah, how do I do
this? That's a really random text to
get. Yeah, and it's like, and they
and they don't teach queer relationships in sex Ed either.
Like that's a thing that you know, it's it's already hard
enough getting actual proper sex Ed, let alone for queer people
especially, cuz that's another thing people will say no, my
child can't learn about this cuz the homophobia that's included
in that so it's tough all around.
It's tough so. Yeah, it is a super awkward
position to be. I'm surprised that Nick didn't
start Googling stuff the way he was, like, am I gay?
Like he didn't get on a BuzzFeed quiz or anything, 'cause this is
like, that's the next step, right?
When you, like, you really don't know what to do, then you go to
the Internet and that's a cesspool of like, mixed bag
information. So yeah, you're right.
It's it's it's as a as a queer person, like when you're the
minority, like in your friend group, it makes it even harder,
'cause you're like my experience is not going to be your
experience. So yeah, I was definitely in
this situation. I was like, I cannot ask any of
my friends this because they're all straight.
They're not going to know. So I was like, I guess we're
just going to figure this out on my own.
And it is a shitty position to be in for sure.
Like I felt Nick in the scene, even when you have friends, like
it's sometimes it's like you're still alone with with those
thoughts and like there is no outlet for it.
It's just like, cool. Yeah, people can listen,
absolutely. But it's still like it's another
thing for somebody to fully empathize and understand.
They can try their best, but sometimes it's still tough.
So yeah, I think actually I'm trying to think about it, but I
think at some point not in the actual novel itself, but I think
in the Q&A that just came out recently, Alice even like showed
Nick has a Google history. I think I, if I remember right,
I think that was actually one of the questions was what was
Nick's Google history And she like posted the list and he's
just like and Nick's character comes up and he's like OK that
we're done with that. Moving on, that's.
So funny. That's cute.
That's. Freaking adorable.
It's such an in character thing for him.
I feel like something in Nick's history would be like how to
surprise your boyfriend with the cutest date.
He would, he would, he would 100% he would make the BuzzFeed
quiz for that. OK, so Speaking of like, support
systems, let's talk about the. Then there's the parent aspect
of it. So the scene that I really love
was, of course, Olivia Coleman giving Nick the sex talk like
unprompted and she's just like, I support you.
And it's basically it was like the red white and royal Blues
team. She's like, make sure you're
doing all these things and like, I'm here for you and it's fine.
It's totally normal. Like, I understand it's gonna be
different for you and he's just embarrassed AF, but like it's
good to have a supportive parent like that.
It is weird to talk about it with your parent 100,000,000%
but like, I love how she's just like, I get what this is going
to be like for you. I know it's going to happen.
I'm not ignoring this. But like, no, just be safe.
Do all the things like it was very sweet and cute and I love
it. Olivia Coleman does everything
unprompted. I know at.
The Right Times I Olivia Coleman is a treasure.
She is. She even offers to buy him the
condom. She's like, I can, I can help
you, buddy. I can.
And he's just like Mom. I can buy my own things.
It's fine. And she's like, OK, I'm just
offering, like she's trying to be that safe space for him.
It's amazing. Yes.
And she. Apologizes for intruding.
Like, I don't know this. I just want to cry because
everything Olivia Coleman does again, we say Olivia Coleman
because we forget that her character, Sarah Sarah Olivia
Coleman. But everything of the year,
always. Olivia Coleman's amazing and I
just love her. And seeing like in the show,
especially, just like the emotions.
I love her. I can't wait for this scene,
yeah. I really need this scene.
Her, her and Kit Connor doing this scene are going to be
priceless. Oh my.
So good. I can't wait.
Not they need the hat. They definitely need another
season just so it can happen, right?
I was once Four Seasons, so manifesting.
I think they all do. I think they all want Four
Seasons. So it's like, please, I like to
think that they're just not telling us yet, but maybe I'm
just trying to manifest that. I would love that just so they
can like, really focus season three on the mental health stuff
because I feel like that's its own season.
It definitely is because like, I think Volume 4 tackled that
mostly. Yeah, it did.
And I think especially with that topic, it really needs its own
time. It can't be mixed in with the
sex. You can't rush it.
Exactly. Exactly.
That's was like, how are they going to combine these two
things? Like, I really hope that there
is a fourth season so they can pace that mental health stuff
really well for. Jar.
Yeah, I hope they don't feel like they need to rush it
because yeah, they haven't rushed the other stuff and it's
just it's good to let it breathe.
Yeah. It's just such a big part of
Charlie, you know, and it does like once that's kind of dealt
with and he goes to the therapy or does change him going
forward. So I agree.
I hope it's paced properly to like out of respect for Charlie,
you know? And then also, I know we'll talk
about it later, but the band scene like where he finally
starts getting a little more confidence to do things that
can't be in the same season because we got to get.
Cast, Yeah, agreed. I feel like they're going to
have to like mix things up from the book a little bit in terms
of timeline the way they kind of did in the prior seasons, but.
I'm just thinking cuz there's not even like 6th book, the end
of the series isn't even out yet.
So to wrap it up with season three would kind of just be like
there's I know Alice has probably all the concept is
there, but it's like right? How do you wrap it up in a
little bow with this season with everything going on like Charlie
hasn't even said the three words yet in in the show I.
Said No, I know we. Have to get, not.
Yet, yeah, we have to get to that and the mental health.
That's the hassle. Season 3.
Basically, we need five seasons at least.
One for each, one for each novel.
That'd be nice for us, I mean. That'd be ideal.
And then we get the epilogue, which we'll talk about at the
end. Her Q&A that was into the
future, I know, OK, but let's finish our summer volume five,
OK. So Speaking of mental health in
this, in this book, Charlie's already kind of passed not past,
but he's dealt with the acuity of his eating disorder stuff.
And now we're kind of into like a body image dealing with the
ongoing and dealing with the ongoing mental health issues
past like acute therapy and things like that.
And so because we're transitioning into like, them
having sex for the first time, Charlie's fear that's
manifesting that kind of like is making him hesitate comes with
his body image issues specifically being like, I guess
like first shirtless in front of Nick because Nick's a rugby
player. So like, Charlie's like, wow,
first of all, that's intimidating.
You're like, you're in crazy good shape.
I'm like a little twig. And then he has like the mental
block of like, oh, what if he thinks I'm disgusting and and it
comes, I like the way Alice draws it in the the graphic
novel where they're kind of like having a heated kiss.
And then like you start seeing like the darkness of Charlie's
thoughts in these frames and it just like escalates like as
Nick's like tugging at his shirt.
So I love, I love, I love the way she, she wrote it and it
just poor Charlie, like it, poor Charlie.
I like to have that on your mind when you're like having a happy
moment is just, it's got to be the worst, you know?
It's definitely something like, it's also, it's great because it
shows like mental health just doesn't, doesn't just get fixed.
Like the fact that he's, he's still working on it.
He's still like, he even says, like, I think later on in the
book he's like, I know I'm still dealing with mating disorder,
you know, I'm still dealing with, I'm still having to deal
with therapy. It's like I'm not just perfect,
I'm not just better all of a sudden because that's not how a
mental illness works ever. Some people deal with a mental
illness their entire lives. Like, it doesn't just go away.
You learn to manage it. You learn to kind of live with
it and feel OK, but you know, it doesn't just go away that
easily. I think my favorite thing that I
love, the Alice attention to detail that they have is with
Charlie's scars. Like, yes, he like at the very
beginning, like throughout the beginning of the book, like, you
see him covering his arm. Like when he's like taking your
shirt off to change, he's covering his arm and you never
actually see it. And then like throughout the
books, he slowly becomes more comfortable.
At first it's an accident that Nick sees it on like their
FaceTime call. And then when Nick, I guess it's
just because Nick doesn't really react.
He's kind of just like, oh, OK, Charlie over time becomes more
comfortable and feel safer with Nick.
And then at the very end you see like the scars are fully
revealed and it's like nothing changes Nick, you know, he's, he
just grabs him and he kisses him and that's it.
Like, it's just like I almost cried reading that part.
I was just like he loves. Him so much.
Charlie, you deserve this. You need to believe you deserve
this. Because you deserve.
The world boy. Yes.
He came so far. He's come so far.
I'm so proud of my boy Charlie. I also just love the symbolism
of that too. Because, yeah, they're physical
scars, but it's also like showing like, you know, like
there can be invisible scars, like the mental scars that that
Charlie's always going to carry from his like trauma.
You know, from everything we've seen from Charlie, from like the
bullying to like the eating disorder and all all of that
escalation. A lot of those are like
invisible scars internal that Nick can't see.
So I like the symbolism of, like Nick sees all of Charlie, the
good, the bad and everything, and he still loves him no matter
what. And like you said, the important
thing is that, like, that shows Charlie that he's worth loving
and he can like fully love himself, like the good, the bad
and everything in between. So I think that's a really good
lesson. And it's depicted very subtly by
Alice. But like, yeah, I love that for
Charlie because Charlie deserves everything and he feels like he
does it, and that's part of like his mental block.
So I love that Nick is able to kind of show him like you're
worth loving, like love yourself, like give yourself a
break kind of thing. You're enough kind of thing.
Even like the at the very end, when they're actually finally
being intimate, when they're having like, their actual first
time. There's even like for a while
when Charlie's finally like, taking a shirt off in front of
there and has Nick take a shirt off.
There's even like those little dots around him, but they're a
little bit lighter. And then as soon as Nick grabs
his face and kisses and it goes away, like it turns into this
light in the background and it's just like Alice.
The attention to details, man. Like you kind of see it
throughout. Like he's still feeling a little
anxious and that's, you know, that's normal.
I think like that's that's to be expected like to have those
nerves. But it's still like you can tell
he's slowly feeling safer, and I love that attention to details
with her illustrations, just it's all it's so it is so
subtle, but it's like it tells you a lot of what's going on in
their head. So good.
I love that. I love that you pointed that
out. It's it's yeah, it's so true
because like again, it reinforces like Charlie's always
going to have these thoughts. It's more about overcoming them
when he feels safe and comfortable kind of thing.
So it is important. I love it.
OK, Something else that I love And you've we've kind of talked,
talked about it a little bit. I love that they also insert
Charlie having a conversation with his therapist.
So like he has a kind of like the same therapist I guess from
like volume 4 onward. So it helps normalize going to
therapy and puts this kind of like into perspective for people
that like we've mentioned earlier like just because like
again, you have a boyfriend and you like went through the acute
stage of therapy, it doesn't mean you're cured forever.
Like you know, continuing to have these conversations and
work through things as time goes on is also important.
So I like the the normalization of that as well.
I love that they had Charlie. Well, Alice had Charlie actually
go into the hospital because that is definitely heavily
stigmatized, especially in the media.
You get it called the loony bin, like the padded room mental
institution, which I actually use because I like to cope with
things with humor that gets me in trouble sometimes.
I got in trouble for it in the hospital.
That's a whole nother story. I'm as people listening.
If this is not your first time, you know that I'm very open on
this podcast, sometimes a little too much, but people need to
know that it's OK if you need the extra help.
And this, that's why I'm so glad that they had Charlie go into
the hospital and it wasn't like a very short time.
Like he was there for like I think 7 weeks, 7 or 8 weeks
about that, because I don't think it was months anyway.
But it's very accurate when Charlie was upset when he got
out because everyone he said that, like everyone was treading
egg shells around him. And this is just completely
accurate because people feel so scared to like, leave you alone
for like a minute when you like first get out and it's it's a
lot on you as well because then you're like not allowed to be
alone. You feel like you're more broken
than when you started because now everybody knows that there's
like dark thoughts in your head and all you're trying to do is
heal and move on. But luckily it does go gets
better. But he has a great guy in his
life to make him remind him how amazing he is.
Yeah, I like the line that Charlie has when he's talking to
Nick. Or he's like, I'm not fragile.
I love that line so much because you're right.
People like, don't know how to handle that or like how to.
I'm not always like being like people want to be supportive,
but they don't know how. So like it comes off as, like,
you know, they don't want to trigger that person.
So then to the person, they're like, well, you're treating me
different. You're treating me like I'm
broken. But it's like I'm just, I don't
know how to be supportive in this situation.
When it's it's internal, like I can't see how you're feeling
necessarily. I can't see what you need.
So like, it's it's hard unless you like, really know the person
extremely well, which is what makes Nick really effective
because he was always, since the beginning, very super observant
about Charlie and constantly learning things about him.
So Nick is very good at being in this situation.
The other person in Charlie's life who's actually really good
at this is, I mean, not as good as Nick, but good is Tori.
Tori is the other one who, like, can read Charlie very well, but
she's like, doesn't always take action when she should.
She's a little avoidant as well and like beats herself up about
that later in other volumes. But it's it's hard.
It can be really hard to do. And so you can see why, like,
Charlie's parents are, like, not great, especially his mom,
who's, like, not observant at all when it comes to Charlie
because she has her own trauma. But like, you know, it's hard.
It's hard for everybody. And you know, like you said,
Caitlin, a lot and a lot of, you know, up until recently, really
like this is a stigmatized thing.
People don't talk about this. They just write you off as crazy
or like, whatever. I don't mean to use derogatory
language, but just like, you know, and so nobody really knows
how to be a support system because we're not taught that
this is even OK, you know, So I do.
I know. I just wanted to mention for
like listeners, if anybody is being a support system for
someone, the best thing you can do is just ask that person what
they need and whatever their response is, listen to that.
Don't read into it. Be like, oh, they're saying
this, but they mean that if they say they don't need anything or
they want space, leave them alone because that's what they
want. And if for some reason it's not
and like they are just saying it, they will learn to say, OK,
I need this from you. So that's the best way to do it
is just ask the person. Don't walk on egg shells.
Don't pretend like you know what they need.
The exception to that is if your mom and gap the series and
you're dating Sam. She wants the opposite.
Go watch. Go watch.
That's great. Speaking of, you won't need
therapy that everyone in that show.
OK, usually the people went to therapy already and was in the
hospital. They will know to communicate
more what they need for sure. All right.
OK, there's another conversation today, and just to harp on this
again, there's a conversation that Nick and Charlie have where
I forget where Charlie's kind of, like in his head with like
the mental health stuff. And basically like, Nick is
there and like supporting him. But Alice again is like kind of
harping on the fact that, like, Nick can't magically solve
Charlie's problems. Cause so often in media, like if
the character is struggling with something internal, it like, the
partner will show up and just magically everything is fine.
Again, that's not real life. That's like the I think Disney
has done more damage than helpful when it comes to this
'cause we're always like you. You're getting married, your
problems are magically solved. The end.
And it's like, no, no, no. Life keeps going after that
point. It's not marriage that'll just
create way more problems. Or like, you kiss the person you
love. You're dating the end.
Everything's happy. And it's like, no, like,
problems still happen. And so, like, while Nick is
there to support Charlie through this, like, you're saying
Caitlyn, Nick, Nick being there doesn't magically solve
Charlie's problem. It doesn't magically make all
the mental health stuff go away. And so sometimes, like, Charlie
does have to deal with this stuff, like internally and Nick
can just hold his hand while it's happening, which is
basically what this frame is showing.
And like, sometimes that's OK and that's enough.
And it sucks being in Nick's position where you're like
watching your partner struggle and you you don't want them to.
But like, sometimes you that's part of that process.
And it's just it's uncomfortable and it's it takes time and it's
not like a happy moment, but it's like it's part of life and
it's kind of like part of being there for like the good, the bad
and everything in between kind of thing.
So I like, I like that she shows that even with them, with like
young adults, with children, that cause like it's it,
everybody goes through these things and again it just it like
helps normalize it by having this conversation with the two
of them. So I really I like that she puts
things like that in there. Charlie just wants to be a
teenager. Like he just wants to be able to
live his life as a teenager. And it's already, he's already
gotten thrown a curveball with his mental health.
So it's like he just wants to be able to live his life.
Yeah, and I like that she has Charlie struggle in there, too,
because it goes to show that, like, not everybody's teenage
experience is going to be the same.
And that's OK too, you know? You're not alone, no matter how
much you think you are. Exactly.
All right, Speaking of not alone, then we get to Nick's uni
decision, all right? Because he has to kind of figure
this out on his own. And then like he kind of has
friends that help him with this. I like the beginning.
I like this, the fact that this is in here, period, because it
it depicts a huge thing that that kids go through and you're
transitioning out of high school slash into like university,
college wherever you live kind of thing.
Or just into the workforce where like at the cusp of that
graduation from the from like primary school, basically all of
the primary schools you have to figure out your entire life
before you're legally even an adult.
Which is a lot. OK, that in itself is just a lot
I. Feel like we should all have to
go into places undecided for the first year and then make a
choice. It's a lot, yeah.
Yeah, agreed. It's just, it's a lot.
And So what I love about Nick's so any journey that's going
through that is really important because it's like impossible to
figure that out and sometimes you you can't and like so you
end up like taking non traditional paths or like
stumbling through college or like whatever.
What I like about Nick's journey that I thought was interesting
and unique to Nick is that Nick mentions that his journey before
that, where he had to figure out he was bisexual, actually helped
him figure out more about himself than like anything else
he's been through up until that point.
And he admits in that that, like, it's this is all a process
and he still doesn't have any, all the answers, which, yes,
you're a teenager. Of course not.
And I think that's important for young adults or adults really of
any age to to hear like, it's OK not to know everything about
yourself. Like, even like, knowing
yourself is a process that takes many, many years.
And sometimes you don't, You don't know what you don't know
until you're like in a situation and you're like, wow, OK That's
how I react to this. Or wow.
OK. I don't like this or wow.
I do like this. Like, it's all part of the
journey of life. And so I think it's important in
that the context of like these young kids getting ready to like
move on to the next phase in life to like hear that, like
it's OK not to know these things about yourself yet.
Like you can just do the best you can, you know, So.
And then Nick also has the added pressure of like leaving Charlie
because like they are codependent.
And Charlie has that whole meant the mental health stuff that
he's still dealing through. And so Nick has this element of
like, I don't want to be away from Charlie and when I make so
I want to stay close to him. So that makes the decision for
me. And also he has that element I
think of a little bit of guilt of being like, well if I leave
Charlie, what if that makes him upset, something bad happens to
him and then it's my fault and then I can't be there.
And so it's it's it's hard to be Nick.
It's hard to be like a young adult figuring that out and then
to also be tethered to a partner that brings a lot of like
baggage. Not Charlie's fault, but I'm
just saying that like Nick also has to consider, basically makes
his decision even even harder and totally understandable that
he has his first instinct as Nick, who's like the
overprotective boyfriend, to be like, I'm staying with you, Like
that makes the decision for me. There's something I also want to
point out and I feel like this whole episode just going to be
me being like, oh, Alex just fixed all the issues with other
media. But something that really annoys
me is that when you have like this one year age gap between
people. So the the older person in the
couple is going to go away to university and they're like oh,
we have to break up because I'm going to a whole different
school, like just showing that they could still be to get.
I mean obviously we don't see it yet because he didn't leave.
But just knowing that they weren't like, oh we have to
break up. That's not what this is about.
This was like do I want to be away from you?
And like, obviously it's hard, but they didn't immediately go
to that. It was more I want to be with
you, which brings us to Nick visiting leads.
Oh my God, this was so fucking cute.
The best part? So, like, OK, I like the way she
draws the colleges so you could get Nick's perspective.
So when he's at like the I forgot what it's called the the
university closer to. It's like thank you.
It's just like dreary and like a cookie cutter building.
And he's like. Sorry.
About this and he's like, I don't know.
And then when he gets to lead it's leads, it's very like
charming looking and like inviting.
And I think what seals the deal is when he meets the rugby team
and there's like queer rugby players.
And Nick I think sees himself, he's like, that could be me.
People like me are already here like, and This is why
representation is so important because Nick sees himself on
that team because people like him are already there.
And I think that's when he's like, I love this place.
Literally has that vision of himself, the.
Unicorn voice wait, hold on, hold on.
Go. Like this.
No. Both.
Both.
Yeah. Oh, is it not going to do?
It I don't know when it does that one, it likes this one more
so I don't know. My webcam was weird.
Thanks Apple. I refused to learn the actual
signs. They just happen.
Randomly. I know them so that's why I was
trying to get you to do something but it wouldn't work.
So anyway, this this whole scene was just so.
Cute it. Was.
Nick is so used to his group of queers, but this meeting was out
in the real world and it probably made him feel a sense
of safety and he could literally see himself there.
Because it wasn't his like group.
Because I feel like. He brought like all the queers
in their school is like in one group together.
Literally, they are the rugby team.
Out in the other world, that's not in their little bubble.
And especially to be leaving your safety net that he's known
and not to mention Olivia Coleman.
I know, like that's going to be the hardest.
Part Like for the first time, this encounter had to have made
him feel like this feels right. And then we also get the gay
leaves. We do.
Oh my God. That means love.
This is the latest first episode with us, as you know.
I don't know if you're familiar with the gay leaves.
I mean, it makes sense to me. Leaves are universal language.
They are a little language media, queer stuff.
Hi. Hi is a love language now.
Saying hi. It's a love language now, Yeah.
It is not true. So the fact that Nick literally,
like, has that vision of himself on that team, like right after
that, it's like that just tells you everything you need to know.
Because it's like, that was me finding my university.
I was like, yeah, I could see myself here.
Yep, there you go. Something just clicks when you
visit a universe and you're like, this is where I'm meant to
be. Yeah, and it's just it could be
from the weirdest reasons I I turned down a full ride
somewhere else to pay way more money to go to the university I
went to. But you know when you know.
And Nick knows he doesn't want to admit it yet.
But he knows. Oh, he knows.
You know who else knows? Elle.
I like that we get Elle and we get the conversation of
basically like Elle. So we're post kind of like Elle
making her decision. Oh, actually, no, She's trying
to figure out where she's going to university or yeah,
university for her. And basically we get the
conversation with like Nick and Tara and all of them and Elle's
basically like, listen, Nick, I'm with Tao.
We've decided to do long distance.
By we, I mean I because I want to go to the school that I want
to go to because this is my future.
Like love him and all that. But this, you know, going to
university in higher education is about me.
It's not about him. So I like that we get more of
like L standing up for herself in this regard and like what she
wants for her future. There's glimpses of it in the
show, and we've talked about that in the past.
But like, it's very outright and explicit in this volume in
particular. And so I like when she gives
this pep talk to Nick because by using herself, she's kind of
like encouraging Nick to be like Nick.
Really think about yourself in this scenario because I feel
like up till now you've been thinking mostly about Charlie
and like being there for Charlie and like clinging to your
codependence with Charlie which is there's nothing wrong with
that. But like think about just you
for a second in order to fully make this decision.
I think that's important too because if you make decisions
based on another person and take yourself out of the equation and
don't really think about it. Like if it doesn't really match
what you want, at the end of the day you're going to end up
presenting that person. Because I quote they ruined your
life because I did this for you and now I'm unhappy.
And so, like, it ultimately could end badly if Nick just
thinks about Charlie in this scenario and doesn't really
think about what he wants and what he feels is best for him.
So I like that we have Elle being the one that, like, really
hits that home by like, comparing it to her situation
with Tao. Yeah.
It's very in character for Elle too, having gone through her
transition and everything, like having to stand up for herself
through all of that. Like, it's very in character
saying, Nope, I'm, I'm putting myself first because yeah, I
gotta think about myself, yeah. Yeah, so you can almost say,
like when Nick was saying, Oh, my journey being bisexuality and
coming to terms that help me figure out myself, you could say
the same. But, oh, like you're saying,
like, her transition really taught her about herself and
what she wants and needs. And so I'm hearing is that queer
people are pretty resilient for having gone through these.
Like, who am I? Things pretty young?
And like that's what Alice is trying to say.
Some of us know ourselves better than than some.
Some straight people do. We're forced to reflect in
different ways, you know. Yeah, and we kind of have to in
like our society with discrimination and homophobia
still and everything. Like we have to be able to have
that foundation to stand up for ourselves and really like
confidently say no, this is me, regardless of what you say.
So we're pretty tough and. Overanalyze everything exactly
that's this. Podcast.
Yep. No, but very well said.
I absolutely love that. You know.
Go. Are we skip?
Are we jumping ahead now? Oh no, I was going to go to Head
Boy, unless you. Wanted to Yeah, Yeah, yeah,
yeah. No.
That's what All right so something I didn't see coming
but should have because I read the Nick and Charlie novella was
was the head boy thing. So but it's the so in by the
time you get to the Nick and Charlie novella like Charlie is
the head boy spoiler so he wins. But I like it this week, Laura.
I like it. This is the origin story of how
he gets there and it's really fucking cute.
So Mr. Farooq is the one of all people who recommends Charlie as
the head boy. And the reason is like, it's
basically to heal his inner child.
And I thought this was so cute because he's like, you know, not
only would you be great at this because you're you, Charlie.
Like for me personally, Like if I was, you know, in a young
younger than you and I had a head boy who was like out and
queer and like super resilient and like Kate and like you know,
survived bullying and is fighting back against it.
Like that would have meant everything to me and made me a
stronger person, basically. So like I love the the queer
support with queers And like again, that representation of
just having a head boy who's like like you and you can see
yourself in like and has that perspective can ultimately make
change to make it a better environment.
I just, I love that Mister Farooq was like the one who who
encouraged Charlie to do this and recommend it.
It was very cute. I hope we get this.
Scene because I think this is. Going to be really cute.
And I feel like. Ben, I think, is his.
Name. And I think he should be just
like in the corner in the background be like.
Ben's, Ben's actually not going to be in season three.
Like spoiler for everybody if they haven't.
Been Oh wait, not Ben. No, you mean the other teacher,
The art. Oh, you.
Mean Mr. Jai? Yes.
No, sorry. That's Nathan.
Nathan, Nathan. Oh my God, I'm so like, yeah.
That was. I hope Ben's not.
There. No, no.
I knew Ben's not going to poop, but I don't know why I thought
that that was his name. I'm sorry, I don't do well with.
Mr. Joy the art teacher. That's why we're we're A-Team.
Yeah, I. I'll say I'm I am the biggest
heart stopper nerd like I'm all of my friends think I'm very
obnoxious about. I mean, they won't say it, but I
know it's true. But any anything about who's
this character, I probably know, because that's that was my
entire personality for six months.
So, well, I'm glad you're here because we need that and I hope
you do. Heart Stopper Season three with
us. Yes.
I'm. I mean, if you want to see a
crying mess because that's going to be me in Season 3.
So what I'm hearing is we need to do reaction videos with you.
Let us know in the comments if that's what you want us.
To do Do you want us to just? Cry, but like, let us know
anyway, I'm going. To be in my feelings, yeah,
yeah. Like with Mr. Farooq, especially
because didn't. I think he said he didn't
realize he was gay till he was in his 20s.
And so yeah. And I wonder if part of that was
because he didn't have the Rep when he was in high school.
So that that even just like adds on to the he really sees himself
in Charlie. And it's so sweet.
Yeah, for sure. Like, I wonder if he's like,
wow, that could have been me. If I had the courage to come
out. That was maybe that's what he
was afraid of and why he, like, dismissed things for so long.
Yeah, I know Farooq is is an interesting character and like,
so tragic. So I liked it.
It was him and not Nathan because, like, you figured it
would have been Nathan because Nathan has always been
encouraging Charlie. He's always been Charlie's safe
space. So I love that it doesn't come
from him, and it actually comes from Mr. Farooq for this reason.
It makes it really special. I love Nathan and Farooq.
They're so cute, yes. I don't know for his first name
is for his. First name Yousef.
His first name? Yousef, but I love their
relationship in general. I can't wait to see more of
them. I was so happy that you included
them in Season 2. I was like I knew they would
partially, but I was so happy when they did their whole Paris
story. I was so happy.
Cute. Yeah, something else that isn't
cute. It's not cute, but very
important. Yeah, I.
Didn't know how to transition to this.
Yeah, this is the best I could do, was just getting to know
more about Charlie's mom and why she is the way she is.
Yeah, like I always suspected there was trauma there with the
mom. And, you know, we've talked
about this before. I'm like, I'm pretty sure she's
traumatized and that's why she's doing these things.
So I'm glad they gave us context to her behavior towards Charlie.
To me, I thought that was so important because I feel like in
why in this kind of space it's easy to write off the parents be
like they're evil or they don't care like because we are seeing
the story from the child's point of view and so we are limited in
what we know because children do not know their parents.
Like you can't you can't know the 3040 plus year of history
about your parents, your parents, you know what your
parents show you. That's it.
And Karen is not showing you their trauma.
You're not going to understand them.
So I love that this isn't an excuse for Charlie's mom's
behavior, But to me, it helps explain why she does the thing
that she does and why it's so hard for her to talk Charlie and
really, like, relate to him. Because, like, her mother was
essentially super. She lives in a base raised in an
abusive household where she couldn't have conversations with
her mother. She couldn't, like, say how she
felt, like she would get, like, physically abused or, like,
yelled at and stuff. And so it's hard for her to,
like, talk to Charlie. She's, you know, she's raising a
household that's very much like I'm the parent.
You respect me. What I say goes, you shouldn't
be arguing back to me. So that when Charlie tries to,
like, express his opinions, I think she doesn't know what to
do with that and shuts down or like gets angry, you know,
because she was never given that as a kid.
I agree that it's not an excuse, but I do love that it gives us a
reason and humanizes her because I am very face value with the
character, so I did not like her and I do like that we get to
know more. About her, but I also.
Love how supportive Charlie's dad is with her and he knows
exactly what she is feeling like when it happens.
So that must mean like they have a bunch of conversations about
this. He knows exactly how this trauma
effects her. And then when Charlie, I
believe, he says that he hates her and like, storms out, like
Charlie's dad turns to his mom and he says, should we talk
about what just happened? And, like, and this happens
multiple times, that he just knows that it affects her and
he's like, all right, let's go talk about it.
I'm here for you and I I just think that's really cute.
Let's say, I don't know if you guys haven't seen it, but there
is a story that Alice wrote a long time ago.
It's like kind of a short story of how Charlie's parents met and
it kind of kind of goes more into death.
I think it's on like her Tumblr or it's tapas or something.
I'm not entirely sure, but I just, I stumbled across it like
months ago and it's actually like the story of how they met
and how it kind of goes a little more into depth, not so much
about their backstories, but she, she kind of talks about her
family a little bit and how she doesn't particularly like seeing
her family and like she's on vacation.
I think, I think it's to Spain. She meets like his family and
it's like it's a whole thing and it's such a cute little story
and it really, it really goes more in depth about their back
story and then falling in love, so.
God, I have to go find that way that that's.
Really, really sweet. It's really cute.
Would recommend oh. My God, yeah.
Because you you notice that a lot of like, I think in like
this winter and stuff, they're like, they're the families are
coming to visit. And there's definitely like a
bias from the kids towards like the dad's family versus like the
mom's family. Like, you can tell there's a lot
of tension there and they're not really close.
So that helps contextualize that as well.
That's a good one. Something I do want to note
about this, like the trauma, is that the irony of it all is that
while Charlie resents his mom because she's not good at
handling his like wants and needs, when it comes to like,
him struggling, the irony is that Charlie and his mom handle
trauma in similar ways. They're actually, they actually
have more in common than they do differences because they both
shut down. Like they both do the same
thing. They hide with their feelings,
they internalize things, and then they lash out when it's too
much. Like they both react the same
way to like trauma and like bottling up their feelings.
So I wonder if that's also partially why they have such a
strained relationship. Like you know, when you have
you're with somebody who's too similar to you, like, you can't.
It's almost like you can't relate.
You need somebody who's like on the opposite spectrum, which is
why, like, Nick and Charlie work so well and like, Charlie's mom
and dad work so well because the dad is more like Nick.
And so like, they're able to, like, comfort that person versus
like, it's almost like with Charlie and his mom, Like, they
react the same way. So they're like lashing at each
other except and one person is not comforting the other.
So I think that also partially strains them because they're
very similar and both like traumatized people who are like
dealing with that trauma, you know?
Yes, that's I mean it's fair as well.
OK, so now we can transition out of the trauma and talk about the
queerness of it all, so. We talked about a lot of the
queerness, but there's something we really need to talk about.
Yes, which is Alice revisited Tori and so we've talked about
this a little bit on the podcast.
But when she wrote Solitaire, she wrote it when she was like a
teenager and it was before Alice realized she was asexual.
So like when she re released the book recently, recently, ish,
she did like AQ and A in the back of the book, it was
basically like they asked her the whoever was interviewing
asked her about Tori. And she's like, well, when I was
writing this, I didn't know anything about myself.
But now that I'm looking back at Tori, I'm like, oh, she's very
clearly asexually coded because like I I was like writing her
from my perspective a little bit.
And that says a lot about me. And like, so I love that she,
like, canonized it in this book. And so she officially, like,
came out as asexual and it was just the best.
And I'm so happy she did it and happy for Tori.
I love her so much. It's so cute.
And she.
Does it to Charlie, Like, I like when they're on the the Ferris
wheel and she's like, I think she said something like I'm in a
queer relationship too or whatever she's like.
No one's so straight, Charlie. Yeah.
He's like. What?
Pedro Pascal, have you seen it? Yeah, Michael goes off about
Pedro. Pascal Oh my God, with Michael
Michael's pansexual. And so Oh my gosh, she's like,
I'm surprised you didn't figure that out.
And they cut to the montage of Michael be like, yeah.
Even the even the gay guy was like the gaydar is just not
there even for Charlie. Yeah, I love it.
She's like, I'm in a queer relationship.
I'm surprised you haven't realized that You.
Have all people he's just like oh oh.
Oops, I love that, Charlie admits.
And he says I don't actually know much about sexuality,
asexuality and Tori just looks so like not.
I guess dejected would be the word.
But she says, yeah, you and most of the world, which, yes, she's
completely right and which is why we need this to learn more,
because I definitely need to learn a lot more.
And we we do have at least another book coming up that
we're going to read that will help us understand a little
more. Yeah.
And I do love that. Like the crux of what she's
upset about is because like, OK, so her and Michael have a very
intense friendship in Solitaire and then it gets it kind of
progresses into this is more than a friendship.
But Tori's basically like, well, you know I don't want to do
anything physical. I guess they they have and she's
like I'm not into it. We tried.
I just it's not for me. I like, I confirmed it and I'm
afraid that like over time, like, he says that.
He's fine with that now, but like eventually he's going to be
like, no, I want to do this and like, will break up with me.
But Charlie's like, but you're not even like giving him a
chance. Like, you know, you're just like
shutting this down before I can go any further.
So I like that they're having this conversation of, like, what
it's like to be in like, like it's it's possible to be
romantic with somebody without, like, having sex with them.
And that's OK and, like, so that's what Tori wants.
But she's got that very real fear of, like, yeah, that's
where we're at now, but what about later?
Like, will that always be OK, 'cause like, that I that's who I
am. What if we're not compatible
going forward in that way? And that's, I can't even imagine
what that's like to have to like, really consider, like this
One thing you don't want could be the thing that, like, robs
you of the person you're in love with, basically.
Like that's, yeah, what a fear, you know?
And then she says I know exactly what he's going to say.
He's going to say that he's fine with it.
And then 20 years, it'll be the reason.
Right. Yeah, and Charlie even being
like trying to work towards sex with Nick, it's like, well, he
even said he wasn't ready. And I said, well, OK, if you
don't ever want to have sex, then that's fine.
And he's like, because I love him.
And yeah, that's not, that's not the case for everybody.
But that's how I feel about Nick.
And she's like, huh, so kind of perspective, Even people who are
active and wanting to have sex, Like, for them, not everybody.
It's a priority. Not everybody.
It's a defining factor. Even for people who are sex
positive. It's not a defining factor of a
relationship. Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's a really, really good point.
It almost reminds you like, for people who can't relate to what
that means, it's like the do you want kids or not thing.
When you're like 16, everybody's like, no, I don't want kids.
And then you turn 25 and then one partner's like, why I want
kids now And the other one's like, well, I told you from the
beginning, I don't want kids. And then now they break up,
which was the plot of Super Girl, although they never had
the conversation until they're engaged, which was stupid, but
anyway, that's another story. Yeah, that that would definitely
be a conversation before you get engaged.
You would think. At least before you start
playing the wedding. Yeah, just saying.
That's kind of a. Defining factor in your future
together so. But like, also like, it's OK to
change your mind. Like I had this happen in like
real life too. Like one of my wife's friends
basically, like, was married. And then very recently it was
like, oh, I want kids. And like the husband's.
Like, I don't. I've never wanted kids.
We've talked about this before. And they ended up getting
divorced because she's like, I want kids.
Like, I didn't realize that about myself till now.
And it's OK to change. Like, that's nobody's fault.
That's just that is part of life.
Like things change as stuff go on.
And what's important is like being your own advocate and
deciding what you really want. And like if it's worth it, it's
worth it. Like it's your life, you know?
So it's it's also OK to change your mind.
So like, Tori's fear is very real and that could very well
happen. But is it worth, like having the
experience with Michael while you can, or just never having it
and always wondering what if and potentially ruining that
friendship People. It's just what do you want.
You're never going to be the same that like, especially like
the people who meet as teens and, like, think they're going
to be together forever. You're going to continue to
grow. And that's why I feel like
divorce really shouldn't be so stigmatized because, you know,
it's OK if you're unhappy, you don't stay in an unhappy
relationship. Maybe we should just stop
getting married in general. People getting married in like
their 30s now and they last their whole lives.
People getting married older needs to be more normalized.
I'm glad it's getting. I'm going to, it's getting more
normalized. But like when you hit your 20s,
you still get the grandparents asking, what are you getting
married? Well, I need to partner first
before I even think about marriage.
Hold on, slow down. OK, I'm sorry.
Everything is expected to happen when you're in your 20s.
You're supposed to, like, have your life figured out, have.
OK, so for like the normal heteronormative, I believe
that's where you're supposed to have get, get married, have
kids, own a house, have a stable job that you're going to stay at
forever and just have everything figured out and be happy.
That's what you're expected in your 20s and that's not
realistic. Not.
Anymore, You don't live in that world.
Literally my best friend, she's been with her now husband.
They started dating in sophomore year of high school.
And like from the moment that they were, I don't know,
probably like 2021, they moved in together because she was
finishing college and everybody was saying, well, you're not
married, so should you be living together?
And then people were saying, well, when are you guys getting
married? You guys have been together for
six years. It's like she's still finishing
college. First of all, she's still like
finishing pursuing her life and also 21 years old, like, why
does that have to be an age? Like, I don't know, it's crazy
like I'm. I'm not.
Everyone wants to get married either, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, They got married when they were ready, so and it
was the best thing. They're so happy they did it,
but they waited to do it when they were ready, so it shouldn't
be. It's just like sex.
Do it when you're ready, not when anybody else tells you
exactly. I think this is a great time to
talk about. Speaking of things are ready
for. OK, So I think that concludes
all the seeds from volume five that we've talked about.
So let's wrap this up by discussing our speculation slash
wish lists slash things we want from season three of Heart
Stopper and volume 6, which will be allegedly maybe the final
volume of the Heart Stopper, you know, allegedly.
Well, we'll see. Five was supposed to be the last
one. We'll see what's analysis brain.
I'll start first. I hope in either of them we get
more of Michael and Tori because I just love them and they're
going to have to. They've already cast Michael for
the show. So they're going to have to kind
of explain who he is because we haven't seen him up till now.
And like solitaire has kind of already happened.
Actually, no solitaire will happen.
Like, I think between. Yeah, so like they're going to
meet and all that stuff. So like, I'm hoping that gets
explained just a little bit, just a little bit.
I know Tori's not the focus, but.
We need more Tori because we did get more or less season, more or
less season of her protecting Charlie and like, you know,
kicking the phone out of David's.
Hands. I'm so happy.
Sorry, that happens. But yes, we definitely need to
get to know Tori more this season.
I agree, and I just want a little explanation of Michael
rather than just a cameo just a little bit for people who
haven't read Solitaire. What if they announced the
Solitaire spin off? I would die.
And then, Speaking of new cast
members, they brought the pug in.
They brought Henry. Henry he.
Got cast. I'm so excited for that, too.
I kept saying, like, what are we getting?
Henry. He's that tiny.
Oh, my God. All right, something else I
want. I really want the concert scene
with Charlie that was in volume 5 in season three because not
only is it cute, adorable, and queer as fuck, but it will be 10
times queer in the show because Imogen and like Sahara will be
in the band and Imogen will be there and those two have to get
together this season if they. Don't.
I will riot and you just you go in the scene that Imogen will be
joining the group to watch the band because obviously and Nick
will say the line that's my boyfriend and Imogen will just
take a step up to be in the frame next to Nick and say
that's my girlfriend. Oh my God.
Ultimate bonding with those two. Yes, I know that so badly.
Oh, it'd be so cute. I also hope that we get the head
Boy like campaign if if not in season three, but like maybe in
season four if they do a season 4 slash volume six.
I want to see that head boy campaign because I'm really
curious how Charlie's going to handle that because it involves
a lot of like being in the spotlight when you're
campaigning. And I'm just wondering at this
stage in his, like mental health recovery journey, how he handles
that. I'm just curious because like I
think that Charlie has grown quite a bit since he was able to
be on stage in the concert and stuff.
So I just, I would love to see that full circle of just like
Charlie getting more comfortable with like being in crowds and
like having the spotlight on him versus like shrinking away,
which is what he normally does. So I I would love to see how
that plays out for. Sure.
I I think it would be very interesting to see the group
split when they did the university visits because it was
very interesting the way they split it and having Nick, Tara
and Elle together and talking and then having Darcy, Tao,
Charlie and all the, I mean the rest of the people back it just
it would separate it and change dynamics a little bit and I I
would really like to see that. I'm also curious what the
conversation with Darcy and Tara is when it comes to university,
because we don't get it. And Tara's like Darcy's fine,
but I'm just curious like what their conversation even is.
I just want to see it play out. What makes Darcy decide to take
a gap here? I'm curious, yeah.
Exactly and get. Away from her mom.
I mean, either way, she could get away from her parents.
But maybe she's been so stifled in her life that she really does
want to just figure stuff out. Maybe explore.
Probably go visit Tara a lot. I need to sleep in her dorm
room. Let's be she's.
Going to live there, basically. Yeah, she's literally going to
freelance. But also, I want that
conversation again, just for like the representation part of
just like showing young people like it's OK.
Like, again, it's insane that at 17 you have to have your life
figured out like it's OK to take a year and be like, let me
figure out more about myself before, like committing all this
time and energy and money, if you're in America, to going to
university, Like, is university even right for Darcy?
Like, who even knows? Like, I feel like it's not based
on what we've seen of Darcy, she'd thrive doing something
else as a career or a trade school or something.
But like, I like that that's her decision.
So I just hope we get the conversation to like kind of
normalize that also. I think that's important.
I wish I wish America would normalize.
I'm not sure how common it is in the UK, but I know it's like, it
is a thing that happens. Like gap years.
Yeah, right after high school or, yeah, right after secondary
school. Like it's normal, like to take a
year to figure yourself out, maybe travel, go see the world,
just live your life as a young adult.
That's not a thing here in America.
Not really like. No, not at all.
I didn't even know what a gap year was until I was, like,
watching British television, right?
Then I heard the I heard a gap year and I'm like, what the fuck
is a gap year? And then I was like, oh, that's
actually brilliant. Like, why is it all up in here?
That's the time to do it. Yeah, when you're young and spry
when. You're young, you don't have
responsibilities. Yet go figure your shit out and
your knees aren't cracking, Yeah.
I think I did know what a gap year was, but it was always in
media saying that it was like awful and like there it was
storylines where they they had no potential basically.
So basically if you don't have any potential, you take a gap
year. That's what our media portrayed
and I my mom told me that I'm worried if you would take a gap
year because I don't think you'd want to go back to.
School. If you didn't continue right
into it, so let's normalize that.
Yeah, especially like college. College isn't necessarily
mandatory for everybody. Like, you can still be
successful without a degree. Like the idea that you have to
have a degree is, yeah, it's slowly starting to get more and
more common that it's not necessary, but there's still
such a stigma to people who didn't go to college, so.
College is expensive, but at least those people aren't in
debt. Yeah, right.
College is expensive. College is 4 can be six years of
your life. For some people it's 10,
depending on what? Like getting your masters, your
doctorate, like that's a lot. And then that's a lot of debt
you're in. Yeah, if you are, how many years
of school have you done yours A doctor in case?
I have a doctorate. Yeah, so the doctor is 4 years,
the undergraduate is 4 years. So it's eight years on top of,
you know, 12 years of schooling plus two years of residency.
So like normal school, 10 + 10 years.
But I have my, you know, it worked out for me.
I have my dream job. So, like, it worked out.
I paid off my loans, like all that stuff.
Like, I got a career where I could do that.
But, you know, we're in this situation for reasons we're not.
I don't want to get into on those podcasts, like, but, you
know, normalize the fact that it's OK to figure your shit out
and not again to harp back to the sex talk like it's OK to do
things at your own pace and do what you want, do what's right
for you. It's kind of like the bottom
line. Speaking of the sex talk, the
scene with Olivia Coleman and Nick having the sex talk is
going to be amazing, and I need it right now.
It's going to be so good. I hope the dogs are there.
Nick's like. I hope Nick is holding Henry.
He's like mom like. Boy, his ears 'cause he's just a
puppy. I want that scene cause like
he's gonna nail that scene and I want so badly and.
Then like, Nick puts the dog down and then Nick and David are
just sitting there listening patient.
No. But I just love that the dog's
names are David and Henry. Nelly Nelly is the.
Nelly, Nelly, Nelly, David, and Holly.
But they both have. David's from red, white and
royal blue. That's what you're.
Thinking David is his douchebag brother is who that is.
He's always made that comparison, that there was a
David in this and then there's there's something in red, white
and royal blue, yeah. The Beagle.
Henry's Beagle. Yeah.
So there's a dog named David. It's David Bowie.
Yeah, Yeah. The Henry and then the David
thing. OK, I got it.
I'm. Sorry, I never made that
connection. I promise I prep for this thing.
I had great notes. It's just when I try to stray
from my notes it doesn't go. That's right.
That's what's entertaining about it, Nelly and Henry.
Oh my God, Nelly, how do I think about?
Nelly. I don't know.
Nelly is Lilly my favorite character?
Nelly Nelson. It's like my favorite play of
words, Nelly Nelson. Nelly.
Nelson We didn't get enough Nelly in Season 2.
No, we didn't there. Wasn't a lot of Nelly, no.
More dogs in season. Three my MY1 boost of serotonin
was in episode 2 where Charlie's just like scratching.
Like it's just like an internal over between scenes.
So cute. He's like, you're so cute.
You're so. Cute.
I I would have loved to have known like Joe's experience
filming that scene. He's literally just, like
scratching echo for like, however long it took to film
that little scene. He's probably just having his
best time. Like, I get paid to do this.
This is my job. I love this.
For people listening, in case you didn't know, Echo plays
Nelly. Yeah, that's the dog who plays.
I tried to get Echo on the podcast.
They did not respond, unfortunately.
But I'll I can try again. Look for Henry.
Henry. I'll try Henry this time, but I
want a scene where Charlie and his mom really talk, where they
talk about having to lean on someone for support and his mom
realizes that Nick is the same support that her husband is for
her because she needs that for herself.
So seeing that Nick is this person I think would be able to
accept their relationship more. And I hope that this will also
give them like a common ground in general because those two
need to talk and not like be. I feel like his mom needs to let
his guard her guard down more when talking to him and not feel
like she needs to have so much space between them.
She needs to talk to Olivia Coleman 1st and then have a
conversation. We do need a conversation there,
yeah. Charlie's mom needs therapy, and
I think I want Charlie to have a conversation with his mom about
mom. Maybe you should go see a
therapist because I feel like she she's she's Charlie.
If Charlie had never sought therapy where she clearly
hasn't. She just shuts down like she did
when she was a kid like and has never, like worked through this.
So like, her defensive mechanisms are all very much in
place and have been for decades probably.
And her dad is probably somebody who like recognizes it, knows
how to like calm her down. But I want Charlie to be like
mom. Maybe you should see a therapist
because I feel like it would help her and like it would
normalize it for adults to be like, hey, it's never too late
to like work through your shit. Also like also a good life
lesson. I hope she's just not defensive
and like it leads to a fight. I think that they get to a
better place and a better understanding.
And after they have a conversation, Charlie can maybe
talk because, like, she's clearly open to it, because she
let her son do it. So, like, I would like for
Charlie to be like, hey Mom, have you ever thought about this
for yourself? There is a thing where you're
like, OK, it's OK for my child to get help, but for me it's a
no. No, right, Exactly.
I would like to see that conversation, even if it ends
badly. I just want to see the
conversation happen. That's fair.
Yeah, I. Think the one I'm most
anticipating is I think it's at the end of.
Well, no, I think it's at the end of like the the first half
of volume 4 where they're in. I think it's in Menorca.
Is that what it's called? They're they're on vacation the
Nelson family and Nick's down at the beach and he consults his
mom, he consults Sarah because she comes down.
She's like you've been gone forever.
What's going on? And he just starts crying and
he's like, I don't know how to handle this.
I I love Charlie so much and I want to help him.
I am not ready for Kit Konner and Olivia Coleman to make me
cry my eyes out in that scene. Olivia Coleman is just going to
make this all cry the entire time that she's.
On the street her and. Kit Konner just they have that
chemistry as like a mom and son. Like they just they just, yeah,
I mean the coming out scene in season one made me cry so.
I love the, like, the outtake where she was just like, I'm
sorry, he just made me cry. What?
Was I gonna say, was I supposed to say something else?
She is precious. Oh yeah.
I'm really curious to see how like even just the books
outside, because I think Alice hinted that at least this
winter, the novella that takes place during the winter, like
the summer, the Christmas after Charlie goes to the hospital,
that that's supposed to get incorporated.
I'm really curious about that. But I wonder if Nick and Charlie
the novella is actually going to get tied in at all.
So especially to the end of volume 6.
But like, I don't know if it'll be in this season, but like into
volume six, I'm very curious so. You're muted.
Sorry, there was dogs barking, I said.
That's a really good point. And I don't know.
I wonder if Nick and Charlie at all will get tied into the show.
Yeah, I don't. Know.
I don't know because I mean, she's, I wasn't saying she it
depends. I I I guess the hint would be if
there's going to be a season four to see what happens with
Michael and Tori in season three.
Because if solitaire stuff is sprinkled in, then maybe that
would hint that Nick and Charlie would get sprinkled into the
last season. Potentially, yeah.
I think this winter. At least.
I think this winter is kind of a given, but I think also cuz like
that's when Henry is introduced in in.
Exactly. Yeah, that's Henry.
The direction, yeah. So it's like I think that just
kind of has to happen plus the way that they handle Charlie
being at the hospital like. The way that David is like.
A stark contrast from, like, Nick and everybody.
Yeah, yeah, you know what I'm talking about.
Yeah, I saw that I roll. David as well, I mean, because
we just got rid of Ben. Which is interesting because Ben
is in Solitaire, so I find it really interesting that you just
like, cut him out. Yeah, and I wonder if he was the
actor though. Was it them not inviting Ben
back? Or is it Ben the actor?
Well, I I know that he basically confirmed along with Alice that
they said, yeah, we're we're not having Ben come back and I know.
It's cut him out. He is doing other things now as
far as I know. Like he's got other projects
he's working on, which I think anybody from heart stopper, like
once they're done, they're going to be doing.
Like you look at Kit, he's doing a movie.
Joe's on Broadway right now. So yes, everybody's doing other
things, Joe. 'S got multiple projects going
on. Oh my God, it's like delayed.
Currently. Yeah.
So everybody's doing other things.
So that's. What happens when you're
actually? Really good.
We. Continue to be a successful
Instagram star? Probably.
Exactly. All right.
So Fiore you put. OK.
So basically now that we've kind of wrapped up, we're not ready,
but we're ready for the end of heart stock for the show and the
volumes. We're going to do a little bit
of talking about something that Alice did.
I think she did like Q&A stuff on like Tumblr.
I think Tumblr kind of is where Heart Stopper started.
And I I found it really surprising that Alice is still
like true to like the Tumblr stuff and like releases the
comic stuff on Tumblr before it's published.
I'm really surprised that she's still.
It's amazing. I'm surprised the publisher.
Is letting her do. Mad respect to her, but she did
like some. She answered some like questions
she was getting basically about Nick and Charlie and just the
the universe of heart stopper. And so I just kind of wanted to
see what you guys thought about some of these like that were in
here. So one of the questions was
like, what would Imogen and Isaac be like in the comic
books? And like, they're just book
nerds and I think that's so freaking cute.
Also, I love that like Imogen is basically like going on about
her book idea and it's like in an insane detail.
And Isaac's not a not really listening, but also listening
while reading the Ballad and Songbirds and Snakes and that is
100% of book he would be reading.
So I just. I love it.
How did you figure that out is. It just like the zoom in it says
it oh OK got it. If I zoom in, it's going to mess
up everything, so. I love that she does it where
the characters are answering and not her.
I love that so much. Yes, yes.
Oh, I love that too. It would have been so much
easier for her not to draw these things.
It makes it so much better. I love that someone asked her
what the clothes thing swap between Tori and.
Michael. Michael would be for some
reason. I wanted to.
Go to Matthew. And I was like, I know that's
not right. I think it's Michael, but now
I'm scared to say any name out loud.
But yes, the oversized clothing on Tori.
And I didn't realize, of course, that they actually switched
fully, both switched clothing and that the shirt is so tight
on him. But it's Michael.
He's so secure with who he is. He's like, it's fine.
I just love Michael. I do.
I love Michael so much. I was so excited to see him in
the show. Oh.
My God. And then God, Nick and Charlie
names man talking about a wedding.
Their wedding. They're playing their.
Wedding. It's just like that.
This is this is their dog talk, Yeah.
I love that it's like in university too.
So like indicating that Alice was like, oh, very early on they
start like planning this, which is very cute and sweet and like
hints that like when they actually end up in the long
distance stuff that it doesn't actually disrupt them.
It does actually. They do make it work because
like, long distance is hard and it's not for everyone.
So I like that she's hinting that, like, they make it work.
Which is really cute. There's not a doubt from like
halfway through the series on that it's like, oh, they and
they stay together. So there's not that anxiety of
will. They, won't they.
It's just how do they work through the relationship,
through their stages of life. I love that so much.
Yes, I love that. Also, I love the details of the
wedding. Like Charlie wants like like a
huge wedding and it's like, that's that's tiny.
And then 80 people. What?
80 people? And is it?
Do you even know 80 people? No.
And Charlie's like no church,
which I I'm here for that. And then they decide to do it on
a beach because that's where they decided to be boyfriends.
And so that's. I love that.
They definitely need a beach wedding.
Something the the next one makes me just melt.
Though Oh my God. Someone asked what job Nick
would do. They all have.
But like, she answers for Nick and it's just it's Nick being a
teacher and like this little girl, like crying to him and
he's like, it's OK, Tell me what happened.
And he's just so understanding and just like he'd be such a
great teacher. I love it.
Oh my God, I love it. I love the background too.
She's like well he starts like playing like semi pro rugby and
coaching and that's how he realized that he's good with
kids and like ends up being a teacher.
I love that the journey he takes, it's very Nick and then
Charlie. So we never talked about this on
the podcast. But like part of Charlie's
character is that he loves like like classic literature.
That's why he has like posters of like classic literature books
on his walls. And so he becomes essentially
like a an editor slash publisher kind of deal.
And he like specializes in historical fiction, very Charlie
thing to do also. So I love that he also gets a
career. That's very fitting of his
personality as well. That's so true, all the pictures
just Nick is just like lashed on and while he's sleeping in town,
he's just scribbling with the with the other arm.
So used to this be like Yup, I know how to write 1.
Handed. Yup.
Perfect introduction to having kids, too.
If they ever do have kids, it's like, that's just, that's just,
you're going to do everything one handed.
That's what my mom always said. Everything's one handed.
Also, I think they do have kids because there's a pain later
where it says like Nick and Charlie are getting ready to go
to work and there's like a Oh yeah, Dad's hurry up, I'm going
to be late for school. So I think they do have kids.
Is the application or a kid? At least one, yeah.
I mean, yes. Yeah, they get the dog first.
Yes. The next image is when Nick, not
Nick. Charlie.
Oh my God. Charlie gets the cat when he is
born and this is like his security animal.
And then Nick finds it. I'd ask who it is and Charlie
gets embarrassed and says no what?
And then later, Nick is the one sleeping with it.
That's very cute. That's love right there.
And then we get them in their 50s.
Yeah, and they look adorable and cute.
And they're happy and. They're still together, and then
we just get pains, pains of them when they're older and together.
And so we get the one that applies.
They have kids. And then I had their night time
routine, which is literally falling asleep on the couch with
two golden retrievers. The dogs are the amazing I love.
That photo makes me so happy. I never.
Noticed there was two dogs. Oh my gosh, there are two.
They got another one. There's two dogs.
Oh my God. Well, Nellie, Henry, they got to
get two. I want to know what the dogs
names are. I think Daisy is one of them, if
I remember right. I don't.
I didn't know there wasn't. I didn't know there was a second
one, but yeah. Alex Then there's I'm dancing at
a wedding and then we get Tara and Darcy when they're older and
just they're still together, which is cute.
And it's them at Nick and Charlie's wedding.
And Darcy like, cuts all her hair off.
And you know what? That suits you, girl?
It. Does those suspenders.
This also like the shirt. It's like this like colorful
short sleeve shirt. Everything about Darcy is very
odd brand for Darcy. She's very fashionable.
I know she. Loves Darcy.
And then another question was like, do either of Nick or
Charlie get like piercings or tattoos?
And so this is very them. Also, Charlie gets an ear, one
ear pierced and then Nick decides to get a tattoo of
Nellie and she dies. The very Nick thing to do to,
like, get tattoos of loved ones when they pass away, That's a
fairy Nick thing to do. But he breaks it up before
Nellie dies. He's like, maybe I'll do it when
tries. Like maybe don't think about
that. He's all teary eyed, like I know
how that feels. Our summer always leaves, always
leaves, feelings behind. It makes you laugh and it makes
you cry so hard. I know just everything about it,
so I think to wrap up our hard stopper discussion for now until
the next thing that comes out, I think we need to rank this with
the Lesbian Jesus Hydration Scale.
This is our scoring system developed with gay science,
which makes it a super accurate method for determining how
valuable a piece of queer media is to the queer library.
Why are we hydrating? Because queer media like like
like water is essential to life. So how would you guys rate
Volume 4 volume 5 on the Lesbian Jesus Hydration scale?
I'm new to this scale so oh OK. I'm very new to this scale so.
This is just basically how much you liked it.
That's, yeah, that's what I basically how how important was.
Like, how important is this piece of career media to you?
Like in the context of all the crew media.
Like, am I allowed to say 1000 out of 10 because like our
stoppers been in my life since 2017 and it was like .5 step on
my personal journey because I found it when I was like 20 and
that was a long time ago. Now when I think about it, she
made Christmas. So I'm like, yeah, I'd say for
Lesbian Jesus Hydration 1000. Honestly, yeah, it's really hard
to give, hard stop for anything other than a perfect score.
It gets like Beyoncé scores where it's like if you ever saw
The Good Place where you're like it's it's it is possible for
something to be like 112% or something.
He's like that is possible. That's how you got Beyoncé, like
that's basically hard stopper. It's like the Beyoncé of like
queer media where like it's beyond perfect.
Everything about it is just Alice did such a spectacular job
with this and and this this volume in particular.
I really really love for all the reasons we've stated throughout
this. It's just it handles YA topics
in such a beautiful way and I love where Charlie's at in his
mental health journey. Like you can clearly see him
growing but still like processing and Nick making the
UNI decision that was right for him was also so so special.
And we get like their first time together and there's a lot of
really good things that happen in this like short little novel
and I just and Tori the conclusion of Tori coming out
like it just it's it's so good. All the water.
I just want to point out that
our first section is likes and dislikes and normally we start
with dislikes. We did not say anything that we
didn't. Like there's no dislikes.
There's not enough? No.
That's my only, of course. It has.
To be. Need more?
And if you've listened, you know I don't give out 10s.
Like not even we were watching did I give out 10s?
I have been more understanding of the importance of this.
I it it that you really can't not give it a 10.
I know you just there's nothing wrong.
It's just it's such an important piece of crew like you just
can't. It's lovely and all the other
ways. Yeah.
So we would all hydrate all the water for lesbian Jesus.
Thank you, Alice for giving us heart stopper for giving us
volume five and a volume 6. The fact that it also didn't end
here gives it 4 points, and. Alice, if you happen to be
listening to this and you want to come talk to us about it,
we'd be more than willing to have you.
And if anybody listening wants us to talk to Alice, maybe just
nicely kindly shoot her at on social media and be like, hey,
talk to these people. It'll be fun.
We might die, but we would love to talk to you.
OK, so you know we're going to sign off from Heartstopper for
now, but we won't be done with Heartstopper.
We'll be back for season three, depending on when that's gonna.
They've already shot it, so it should be coming out.
Like around the August time again?
Yeah, probably. OK.
But the end of the year, so we'll be back for that.
And at some point we will cover Solitaire because it's just such
a good book and Volume 6 whenever that comes out.
So plenty of hard separate stuff to come.
Thank you everybody for coming along of this journey with us,
and until next time, keep hydrating for lesbian Jesus.
And get up all over the place. Bye.