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Welcome John Elias on to the 
podcast Sanity Check. 

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Most people know who you are 
already, but if you by some 

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coincidence missed it, you're 
former foreign minister of 

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Sweden and also Deputy Secretary
of United Nations, among other 

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things. 
Thank you very much. 

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Good to be with you. 
We met during summer and I 

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thought we might start on that 
topic because there we talked 

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about the role of democracy and 
also the voice of the people. 

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And it's getting more and more 
urgent to look at the voice of 

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people because we see in so many
places right now that the 

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interests, the people are 
getting sidelined in the bigger 

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interest of things. 
There's a lot of conflicts right

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now going on in the world. 
And I also see in my research 

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that a lot of people don't see 
that democracy actually is 

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giving them any benefits because
you expect so much from 

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democracy. 
And it's not that democracy can 

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give you anything, but at the 
same time you want your voice to

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be heard. 
There's a lot of things that 

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driving in the wrong direction. 
And I think one of the key 

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issues here is also that it's 
hard to see how the world 

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actually looks right now. 
We have AUS election where it's 

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hard to understand what is true 
and what is blatant lies, for 

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instance. 
What's your thought about this? 

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Well, I think I would like to 
mention as a starting point to 

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the lack of trust which exists 
very clearly in today's world, 

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both between nations, as you see
between the big actors, US, 

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Russia, China in particular, and
by that the the immobilisation 

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and weakness of the UN Security 
Council. 

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So conflicts rage, there is a 
sense of helplessness in on 

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International Security, but the 
mistrust is also permeating our 

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societies inside nations as you 
touch upon yourself, where 

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people ask what does the 
government deliver and what are 

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the authorities doing for me? 
And this is strengthened by 

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clear deficiencies in terms of 
equality and income distribution

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and how people are treated, how 
minorities are treated, and even

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in democracies, how interests of
certain groups are disregarded. 

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And this is a sense of of 
mistrust which goes rather 

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deeply. 
And it's also, which you may 

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want to deepen the discussion 
on, is also strengthened by the 

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radicalisation of media, the 
social media, which sort of 

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everything's black and white and
the sense of nuances and, and, 

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and the desire for deeper 
discussion and dialogue is 

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rather weak. 
You know, you identify those who

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are on the other side as enemies
and those who are hanging on the

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Cliff as very suspect 
individuals. 

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And that leads to a division 
inside countries, which I feel 

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is an international phenomenon, 
right? 

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You see it practically 
everywhere. 

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Yeah, there's a lot to take 
about that I'm just looking at 

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because I think as I said on 
media, there's there is a 

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challenge to understand who is 
the actual minority because 

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looking in in the Western world,
Trump is the biggest example, 

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but the people who voted for him
felt like they were a minority, 

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white men in rural areas. 
And we see the similar trend in 

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Sweden as well and most of the 
European countries that these 

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persons feel that they're 
sidelined, but they're actually 

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quite a big group. 
But they start to tend to feel 

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like they're smaller than the 
minorities we have because they 

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get under represented in the in 
the public space. 

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And as you said, regulation of 
media because it's more 

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interesting to focus on the 
scandalous issues and expect it 

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to be even worse in the future 
because guessing about the 

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future creates clicks and 
shares. 

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But the same time, the challenge
there is for the politicians 

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that were and diplomats for that
sense to actually be able to 

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handle the real situation when 
there's something else going on 

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in the public space that's 
scaring people but also being 

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the center of the debate. 
Yeah. 

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Well, diplomacy is not very much
Alamod these days, you know, 

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dialogue and this and diplomacy 
is not searched for. 

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I myself have mediated in six 
and I, I must say we in that 

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category at the UN were in 
demand. 

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I had to accept to decline 
offers, to go into conflicts and

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mediate. 
But it's very quiet these days 

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here with my colleagues. 
They get no requests. 

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There's this pursuit of military
victories and fight to the end 

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and use weapons to to reach 
their goals. 

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So for me as a diplomat, I I 
feel rather sad losing the value

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of the word and the compromise 
and the go between roles that 

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you need to have. 
But that is also is growingly 

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considered very suspicious 
because it's a sign of weakness.

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So then there is a the. 
The other thing that comes to 

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mind to me is that it has been a
scary, the loss of territory 

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between truth and and lies. 
I was in the US when Trump 

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started his campaign back in 
2015. 

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I was deputy secretary general 
of the UN in New York. 

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And of course you couldn't avoid
the the that campaign. 

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It's the whole political life. 
2015 and 16. 

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And I was astounded by the fact 
that it it didn't hurt anyone to

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lie it, it didn't hurt him. 
Rather, he started already at 

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that time to become a cult 
leader, not a leader of the 

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political party that he later 
dominated. 

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The cult leader. 
You have a question. 

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And if you question it, you pay 
a price for it. 

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And when the line disappears to 
me between lies and truths and 

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when facts are denied and the 
spokesperson of the White House,

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Kellyanne Conway, was sort of 
faced with a charge of a very 

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blatant lie by Trump. 
And then she asked it, well, you

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have to learn that this 
president, president-elect, he 

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might have been at that time. 
He, he has, he, he sees some 

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facts, but he also sees 
alternative facts as though you 

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create your own reality. 
And that's when I started to 

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really worry about what this 
does to democracy. 

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It must have an eroding effect 
that if this ground on which you

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stand, and I grew up in a in a 
working, working class home 

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where honesty and truth was 
sacred, then to me that firm 

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ground becomes very loose ground
and then you don't know where 

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you end up. 
So these are my observations. 

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Diplomacy is certainly not used.
Dialogue isn't Alamont. 

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And as I said, truth isn't as 
sacred as we should see it as. 

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Yeah, I actually had a guest on 
my podcast a couple of weeks 

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ago, Colin Irvin. 
So his polls were actually the 

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the foundation for the peace 
treaty. 

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And he wanted to do the same in 
Israel now when the conflict was

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accelerating there. 
And US stood behind him until 

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Netanyahu said he did not want 
peace. 

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So then he could not get a 
sponsor for it. 

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And that that's not a word 
you're touching on right now, 

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because the leaders need to be 
able to lose something to have 

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peace. 
You have to compromise. 

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But then you would be a loser. 
And to be honest, I don't think 

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either Hamas or Netanyahu really
wants peace. 

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They keep themselves busy, but 
on the cost of the people. 

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And I think the regular citizens
are being sacrificed in this 

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fight, these guys who just want 
to look strong. 

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That, that is the mistrust. 
Again, you know, when you, when 

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you see that societies are run 
by people who don't seem to care

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about the not, are not putting 
the human being in the centre. 

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I, I always carry the UN Charter
in my pocket when I was at the 

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UN and it was a very, very 
effective weapon because I had 

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to remind people when they only 
thought in geopolitical terms 

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and looked at nations as chess, 
as, as pawns on the chess game, 

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chess board. 
I put, put out my chapter, my 

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charter and said, look, you know
the first 3 words of the 

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charter, Look here, what is it? 
We the peoples. 

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This organization isn't we the 
government, it's we the peoples.

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If we forget what this means 
that war means for people, or 

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underdevelopment poverty means 
for people, or human rights 

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violations mean, then we have 
misunderstood the subject, as we

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said in school. 
Yeah, people cannot be 

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sacrificed them at the thing 
that nothing is true and 

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everything is possible. 
It's close to the Putin doctrine

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that everything is possible. 
But the research I've done, and 

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even in Sweden, half of the 
Swedes think that the news media

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are trying to protect their own 
agenda or push out their own 

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agenda. 
And this has happened the last 

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10 years. 
I think in the US, it's been 

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like this for a much longer 
time. 

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But Fox News is the, it's the 
most visible example of of how 

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you have a political biased 
newsroom, but in a world where 

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you know or expect or think or 
believe that news media are 

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biased, then it means that 
everyone is lying. 

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And from that perspective, just 
start to distrusting the public 

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information. 
And I think that's our challenge

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right now because news media are
not seen as neutral parties 

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anymore and not working for the 
people against the power or 

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looking out for our interest 
against the. 

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Power I I was there at a time 
when I there was sort of a 

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discussion about what really was
the meaning of the campaign and 

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what was the games, the 
campaign. 

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And it was incredible the 
difference of the 

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interpretations from the 
different television channels. 

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You would think you were in 
another country switching from 

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CNN to Fox News, and that's very
dangerous. 

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Where I went to school Once Upon
a time in the Midwest, in 

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Indiana, it was always Fox News,
the East Coast, it was CNN or 

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CNBC, whatever. 
So that that was, that is now 

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strengthened even more. 
Today. 

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You know more about that than I 
do. 

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But the fact that you now even 
have to worry when you see a 

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text or even see a photograph, 
whether you have to ask 

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yourself, is this manipulated 
you? 

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You don't even even a photograph
or a text, which was, you know, 

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we were supposed to at least 
take it in as a contribution to 

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truth. 
But if you the starting point 

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is, is this manipulated? 
Is this either really a 

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manipulation, real manipulation,
or is it something that is used 

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as misinformation by sources far
outside your own country or 

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inside our country, trolls or 
whatever? 

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They to to even have that 
process in your brain. 

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Yeah, before you go on and take 
decisions, that is really a new 

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phenomenon. 
Yeah, it is. 

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And it goes back to what we said
in the beginning that we need to

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have trust in certain 
institutions because news media 

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will continue to produce news, 
but we need to be able to trust 

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them to be neutral and also not 
to have been lied to them. 

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There are examples where Reuters
fake Reuters news got into 

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national broadcasts in, in 
Europe. 

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And so, so there's so many 
layers of this. 

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But if you cannot even trust the
news organization to be neutral,

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then it's basically you have 
destroyed the entire foundation 

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for trust. 
And if you know that they are 

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biased, then there's no 
basically no point in it's 

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locking you in having to choose 
sides. 

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You have to be either team Trump
or Dream Harris to continue the 

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US example because you know, 
everyone has shows him aside. 

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So it's it's like a false. 
You have to make false choices 

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of everything. 
The political arena becomes a 

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place where you really have no, 
no discourse, no exchange, no 

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real dialogue, where you listen 
and compromise and come to a 

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solution to something. 
If you don't have a Fiorina is 

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all the place where it's either 
or, then where do we have the 

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real deep debates and 
discussions? 

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How will we pursue them? 
And that's where you come back 

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to something which is becoming a
problem in Sweden, where you 

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have the the civil society being
such a lively part of our 

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culture. 
And I grew up with society and 

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my father was a labour Union 
Leader. 

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My mother was involved in church
and whatever. 

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And we were, they were writing 
protocols or meetings and I was 

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counting the receipt from the 
cooperative store. 

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And, you know, it was just a big
movement, you know, which was 

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part of, you know, how the 
Swedish democracy grew in the 

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30s, forties and 50s. 
And now when you don't have, 

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they are even undermined in 
terms of budgetary support. 

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And I get phone calls from 
friends and society, 

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particularly those that deal 
with international affairs who 

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are desperate. 
You know, half the staff of 

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several organizations I know who
are doing a great job both in 

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Sweden and internationally are, 
you know, saying goodbye. 

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We go go bankrupt and this has a
deeper significance because it 

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also leaves that arena rather 
than you know, where you're 

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supposed to have dialogue and 
discussion and come out with 

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solutions. 
The old, the labour movement had

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this together with the 
employers, the Sal Shabbat and 

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sort of the spirit of yes, it is
in our interests, a well 

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functioning industry and it says
we have to have people satisfied

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workers, you know, who have no 
reason to complain too much. 

229
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So that is a tradition which I 
felt was one of the reasons why 

230
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Sweden had still has still, I 
would say, a rather steady and 

231
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strong democracy. 
But my God, we are on the strain

232
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,320
and I don't think we quite 
realise that we are on the 

233
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strain. 
Some comes to power in in the US

234
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,960
and if if some of these extreme 
movements in Europe also become 

235
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:16,200
stronger and stronger as we see 
very many sides of and I don't 

236
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know where we end up. 
Yeah. 

237
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,680
And I think what's happening 
right now is that the voter or 

238
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,160
the citizen has been sidelined 
away from democracy. 

239
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,360
Politicians only see them as a 
possible vote. 

240
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,120
Or if you're not thinking the 
way the politicians think, you 

241
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,800
shouldn't vote because better to
get them not to vote for the 

242
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,640
other side than getting them to 
trust you. 

243
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,480
So there's a destructive 
function in the political 

244
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,040
campaigning that's been in the 
Western world and that that is 

245
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,360
also being used in this 
geopolitical sense from Russia 

246
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,000
and Iran just to to undermine 
the trust in democracy and 

247
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,400
undermine the feeling that the 
voter has and is saying it. 

248
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,240
And then what happens to the 
people? 

249
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,840
Because most people in the world
are actually good human beings. 

250
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,520
They don't want to fight. 
They don't want to lie. 

251
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,359
They did. 
They want to have their life and

252
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,480
live their lives. 
But if they feel like they're 

253
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:11,200
alone and surrounded by this 
madness from media and from 

254
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,240
politician, then you start 
getting scared and scared once 

255
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,079
become populists. 
And both for the strong guy and 

256
00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:23,119
the other people, the big 
majority just leave this public 

257
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,680
space and say, OK, I'll just 
take care of myself because I 

258
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,440
can't. 
I don't want to be part of this.

259
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,960
This is a crazy world. 
I'm glad I'm not there yet. 

260
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,400
And and this discourse, I think,
is what's driving so much of the

261
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,640
juris skepticism right now. 
And also the Trump voter base is

262
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,280
like, the world is going crazy. 
I don't want to be part of this,

263
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,960
this. 
I'll vote for the guy who's not 

264
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,560
actively part of this. 
Yeah, just as a protest to say, 

265
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,640
OK, if if they're right, then we
need someone to just pull the 

266
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,040
handbrake. 
If they're wrong, at least they 

267
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,080
got a wake up call. 
That's right, looking. 

268
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:03,040
Looking inward is sort of a way 
of, of identifying security. 

269
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:04,600
That's where you find your 
secure place. 

270
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,280
Looking inward. 
And for me as an 

271
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,760
internationalist, you know, 
working with the international 

272
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,720
cooperation and exchange and 
understanding foreign cultures 

273
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,880
and you know, the multiplicity 
of cultures as a positive. 

274
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:25,640
I forget it when I went out on 
on X or earlier Twitter, I was 

275
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,320
sort of condemned as a sort of 
inveterate and hopeless 

276
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,240
globalist was sort of one of the
worst things you can be called. 

277
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,600
And then of course, you had 
these groups got a very 

278
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,000
important tool in their hands, 
which is really quite a 

279
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,240
challenge and that is the 
migration and refugee issues, 

280
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,320
which has become such a catalyst
for division and and even 

281
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:54,400
further polarization and hatred.
Both visa these groups is to 

282
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,240
some degree, but also those who 
favour another approach to 

283
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,680
migration, refugees. 
And this is of course also fed 

284
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,280
by the crime waves that you see 
as many countries, including not

285
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,720
least our own country and where 
you easily place blame on these 

286
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,120
groups. 
And then you see the political 

287
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:16,480
spectrum. 
And this you know better than I 

288
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:21,360
again, where the political 
parties that are see the shifts,

289
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,360
shifts of opinion and feel the 
winds and adapt to the new 

290
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,200
conditions. 
And to me, to me, this has gone 

291
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:37,480
a bit too far, that political 
leadership to me is more of, for

292
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:42,560
me nowadays, more of standing up
for principles and values and 

293
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:50,600
having the courage of the 
capacity and talent to bring out

294
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,440
the as you said in the 
beginning, we will want to live 

295
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,000
together and be in peace. 
So we don't lie and we don't. 

296
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,400
So we, we otherwise we are 
brought down to another level of

297
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,400
quality of life and quality of, 
of your soul. 

298
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,280
Yeah. 
So this is what's happening now 

299
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,160
without really us noticing it in
time. 

300
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:13,480
And things can go very fast. 
Yeah, it is the slippery slope 

301
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,680
and I think this game between 
news media who just focus on 

302
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,560
fear as being the biggest driver
to get tension in the news media

303
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,600
and politicians who have to, if 
they don't base their politics 

304
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,520
against the view of the world 
that media presents, the media 

305
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,560
cannot accept their policies. 
And and even if it's not really 

306
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,920
true anymore, look at migration 
for instance. 

307
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,320
And look for instance, in 
Sweden, I will research this. 

308
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,680
I don't have results yet, but I 
would suspect that people think 

309
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,200
there's about 2,000,000 Muslims 
in Sweden when in fact there's 

310
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,600
200,000. 
And most of those, according to 

311
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,880
research that the scientists 
have seen, is they're more 

312
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,520
liberal than the countries 
they've come from, but they're 

313
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,800
being projected as being 
Islamists, basically. 2 million 

314
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,240
potential terrorists in Sweden. 
OK, this is going in the wrong 

315
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:04,440
way. 
That is not true. 

316
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,280
But that's the backdrop where 
the politicians are are acting 

317
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,440
because no one is challenging 
the actual facts because you 

318
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,560
can't do that when facts has the
same value as opinions. 

319
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,120
It would be a debate. 
How many refugees do we have in 

320
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:20,160
Sweden? 
Let's have a debate tonight at 

321
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:25,040
9, which is really sad. 
They had the same thing in in 

322
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,520
the environmental issues, but 
they stopped that because they 

323
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,400
realized, OK, we cannot debate 
climate change, but suddenly you

324
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,160
can debate how many migrants 
there are. 

325
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,000
Although we have facts. 
And those who are prone to be 

326
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,840
afraid will be very afraid if 
they think that what's going to 

327
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,680
get you as a terrorist. 
And sadly, do you believe it's 2

328
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:49,200
million potential terrorists in 
a country of 10 million people? 

329
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,760
It's a frightening view. 
It's not true, but it's a really

330
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,640
effective scare tactics. 
Yeah. 

331
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,760
And the images that you see on 
television of the papers and all

332
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,520
that strength and that all the 
time, and the fear factor 

333
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,760
becomes stronger and stronger. 
And the fear is such a horribly 

334
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,120
numbing feeling. 
You know, then you reduce your 

335
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:15,000
intelligence by being scared all
the time. 

336
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,520
I'm sort of a bit of a dreamer 
in terms of what could be done 

337
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:24,280
to me. 
I am really uncomfortable about 

338
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:30,320
this negative situation that we 
just see things going down and I

339
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:36,080
don't see why we won't have any 
say mobilization of good forces 

340
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,720
because we want to sort of shift
course. 

341
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,800
You know, I'm a Navy officers. 
I know if you're off go to the 

342
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,120
cliffs, you should better change
course. 

343
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,160
And I have two issues which I 
think would be absolutely 

344
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,920
wonderful to see as a as a 
project, you know, a big project

345
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,720
that we had in Sweden when we 
grew from what we were in 30s to

346
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,680
we, we became in the let's say 
late 50s. 

347
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,080
We could really gather all good 
forces around this issue of 

348
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,040
environment. 
Why should we have such a 

349
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:12,880
partisan divide with such deep 
feelings on those on the green 

350
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,240
side that exists today when the 
word conservative as you know it

351
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,440
means preserve but don't feel 
that you should preserve nature.

352
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,560
Why is this becoming a left 
right issue? 

353
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:30,640
Please explain that to me when 
we in fact need complete 

354
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,280
globalization around forgetting 
parties because it's about 

355
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,400
looking around where you are, 
this fantastic nature that we 

356
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,920
are destroying and of course 
climate change related to that. 

357
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,800
If you look, the clock is 
ticking. 

358
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,400
The thing that should lead to 
mobilization in my view is a 

359
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,040
real serious approach to 
integration, you know, housing, 

360
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:57,560
jobs, language, everything and 
have a mobilization strategy and

361
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,560
also bringing in not only the 
political parties but bringing 

362
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,240
in civil society and the private
sector and the research world, 

363
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,760
you know, around the issue. 
You put the problem in the 

364
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,440
centre and then you gather those
who can affect the problem and 

365
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,040
then you have a discussion and 
come out with the division of 

366
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:19,000
labour and then you report to 
each other again and come back. 

367
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,400
We have to find models otherwise
we we will feel a even more of a

368
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,360
frustration that nothing 
happens. 

369
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,000
We start with that the deep 
frustration about not getting 

370
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,480
things done. 
You should have political 

371
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:38,120
leadership that defines those 
projects with big P the let's 

372
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,960
say the the our environment man 
as a part of nature. 

373
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,720
Let's make peace with nature. 
Did you? 

374
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,280
Get good at what you're being 
measured on and from political 

375
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,920
perspective, you're being 
measured on being on TV and 

376
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,480
debating. 
And there you have the conflict 

377
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,360
is the driving factor. 
And since facts is not 

378
00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:01,280
interesting anymore because 
everything is live broadcasted, 

379
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,560
it's for the reader or the 
viewer to to do the fact 

380
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,440
checking because the TV don't 
have time. 

381
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,400
Then you can start just telling 
lies because it gets more you 

382
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,040
actually get awarded by lying 
more because then you get more 

383
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,240
our time basically, and which is
actually I had and 11 on this 

384
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:20,680
podcast, but that was in 
Swedish. 

385
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,200
But she actually said that if 
you say something really 

386
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,360
surprising on the debate, then 
you you will be quoted for a 

387
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:29,000
week. 
But if you're just debating, 

388
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,880
then it's just those minutes and
they are being measured on the 

389
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,080
reach and name recognition. 
And both the politicians and 

390
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,280
news media have stopped trusting
the people because the people is

391
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,000
just someone who's being used 
here. 

392
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,840
It's a number going back to the 
UN actually. 

393
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,960
It's not about the people. 
The people are just numbers, 

394
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,000
their ratings and their voters 
staying in power. 

395
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,320
Because look at the climate. 
There's only 2% in Sweden who 

396
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,200
think there is no climate 
change. 

397
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,400
So this is a non issue. 
Everyone keeps in it, but the 

398
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,800
same time we cannot move over to
solution. 

399
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,240
But everyone wants solution. 
But the Swedes realize that it's

400
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,880
not the national issue, it's an 
international issue. 

401
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,800
Actually the biggest support is 
for UN to actually step in and 

402
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,560
solve this, have a global 
tribunal to take care of the 

403
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,720
worst climate offenders in the 
world, basically China, US and 

404
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,920
Russia. 
Because in Sweden we are 

405
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,120
educated as people, we know we 
cannot solve this climate crisis

406
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,680
no matter how many times we take
our bike to work. 

407
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,840
That's not it might be good for 
local environment, but it's not 

408
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,040
helping the climate. 
But the politicians honestly 

409
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,080
don't care about the global 
issues because that that's not 

410
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,560
their constituents. 
But there is one aspect which I 

411
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:51,280
thought about and that is we are
at Sweden, 1011 million people, 

412
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,960
yes, rather small size, still in
the UNI can tell you we have 

413
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,560
quite a bit of influence, I must
say. 

414
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,440
We are a member of the European 
Union, a loyal member and now a 

415
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,040
long time member and we are a 
member of NATO. 

416
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:14,360
And I think also that we should 
realise that we can enlarge and 

417
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:20,400
enhance and widen our identity. 
The word identity is by the way,

418
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,680
much better in plural both 
Swedes and Nordics and Europeans

419
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,840
and world citizens. 
You know everything. 

420
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,000
If we realize now, for instance,
that we are all five of us in 

421
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,280
the Nordic countries in the same
security alliance, then the 

422
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,680
conclusion should be a number of
things. 

423
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,200
But one of them should be that 
why won't we are voice be heard 

424
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,920
much clearer if we have 5 inside
that organization with quite a 

425
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,400
good reputation and good 
negotiators and so forth. 

426
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,320
We we could do a lot of you 
bring in the international. 

427
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,120
Aspects. 
Arctic issues, we have 

428
00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:01,280
geographic proximity and 
legitimacy to bring these 

429
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,640
issues. 
So this Nordic voice, you know, 

430
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,920
can be stronger and that could 
perhaps to be a effect. 

431
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,720
Also the sense of helplessness 
that if you, Oh my God, we are 

432
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,600
the five Nordic countries, we 
could even add sometimes the 

433
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,240
three Baltic 5 + 3 in European 
Union soon. 

434
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,680
Hopefully it's a different 
constellation. 

435
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,440
Anyway, my point is this and 
then also I hope this is a big 

436
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,240
challenge is if Trump wins the 
election and if he betrays 

437
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:35,240
Ukraine and if he sort of 
pleases truth his policies, what

438
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:40,360
a huge loss of confidence 
between our transatlantic and 

439
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,720
what type of pressure will we 
feel as Europeans? 

440
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,440
Will we just fall in line and be
the guys who don't do anything 

441
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,920
or will we try to not compensate
fully but at least try our best 

442
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,800
to support Ukraine? 
Will we be more of a global 

443
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,920
voice? 
So I would say that one way for 

444
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,040
us to sort of strengthen our 
confidence and self-confidence 

445
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,640
is to realize that the word 
together is perhaps the most 

446
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,160
important word in the world 
today. 

447
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,440
Because together with the 
Nordics, together with the 

448
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,120
Europeans, could we affect 
realities more and by that 

449
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,160
reduce the feeling of 
helplessness. 

450
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,680
I never thought, I never thought
about it before, but I just 

451
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,440
thought it now in an interesting
way of again, this I'm looking 

452
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,640
for sort of positive. 
And I think these, I would add 

453
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,480
this to my positive project. 
You, you need not be so damn 

454
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,320
helpless. 
Yeah. 

455
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,160
And. 
That is a perfect example, and I

456
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,440
think what most politicians and 
news media failed to realize is 

457
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,840
that what the voter or the 
citizens actually want is a 

458
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:48,240
positive vision. 
People are fed up with death and

459
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:49,960
destruction. 
It's not the actual death and 

460
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,960
destruction, it's the 
helplessness that makes you fed 

461
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,520
up. 
Because if there's a negative 

462
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,600
issue that you understand that 
can be solved, people will 

463
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,440
mobilize. 
But if we're all going to die 

464
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,640
and it's just doom and gloom and
everything, then you will be 

465
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,640
demobilized and you'll stay at 
home. 

466
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,000
You buy a bigger lock for your 
door and whatever. 

467
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,600
Actually 20% of the males, since
we don't think we should be 

468
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,600
allowed to have guns to, to 
defend ourselves against 

469
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,440
criminals. 
This is, this has happened in 

470
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,680
the last couple of years. 
And I, I actually, I'm, I'm, I'm

471
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,920
glad that you also reminded me 
because we have to have think 

472
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,640
about some positive things. 
And there is actually one really

473
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,880
interesting positive thing. 
First, during the pandemic, the 

474
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,000
people in Sweden really behaved 
positive. 

475
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,720
They were the most positive 
example, I think in the world 

476
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,440
because we did not need laws. 
We, we followed common sense. 

477
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,480
We, we did everything to 
minimize the spread of the 

478
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,280
infection. 
Although there were no laws, I 

479
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,320
think we were one of few 
countries in the world that did 

480
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,640
not have laws for this. 
But also one word in the US 

481
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,520
because I'm, I'm, I'm getting 
more and more positive about the

482
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,840
outcome of US election actually.
And, and there's, there's been a

483
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,680
tonality shift actually, when 
Harris and and Walls became the 

484
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,360
Democrats presidential 
candidate, it's because they 

485
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,960
have a positive. 
It's not Biden. 

486
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,120
It was 2 old guys who wanted to 
fight who was the toughest guy. 

487
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,600
And yeah, the threat democracy. 
Now it's just in a, in a small 

488
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,920
sideline, OK by Trump. 
We're not going back. 

489
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,240
We want to move forward to 
something better. 

490
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,520
The civil society there has 
really moved up. 

491
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,000
I heard the other day that the 
Harris campaign, I've had 

492
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,600
100,000 events since this 
candidate started, 100,000 

493
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,800
events. 
So people are really moving 

494
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,200
there. 
No, I think you're right, people

495
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:46,720
waiting for that positive news. 
I I, I, I sometimes mass to 

496
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,040
lecture on the state of the 
world. 

497
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,320
I always consider myself rather,
you know, optimist. 

498
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:58,640
But now I'm slowly becoming a 
worried or a pessimist who has 

499
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,680
not yet given up. 
These are where I am I, I, I, I 

500
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,920
go between these two categories 
right now. 

501
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,760
But when I last came out, there 
was a woman standing up in the 

502
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,800
end said y'all, yes. 
And we, we, we get very worried 

503
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,120
If you are so worried and you 
got to give us hope very 

504
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,040
seriously. 
So I said yes, you're right. 

505
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,720
I and then that's where I 
actually brought out this 

506
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,880
thinking about Europe and the 
Nordic countries that even we 

507
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,840
could face with a Trump victory,
sort of an interesting way of 

508
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,240
strengthening our 
self-confidence in Europe, 

509
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,160
Nordic area. 
But then I said to her, I've 

510
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,480
written a book, by the way, it's
called old and handling a Life 

511
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,120
in the World of Diplomacy. 
And there I've, I've developed 

512
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:50,880
this thesis that, yes, you got 
to have a very down to earth, 

513
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,280
realistic, sober, sombre 
analysis of the world. 

514
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,400
You have to accept the world as 
it is. 

515
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,760
You must never forget that. 
You must strive for the world as

516
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,520
it should be. 
And the whole meaning of not 

517
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,320
life but meaning of my 
professional life, please, is to

518
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,240
reduce the gap between the world
as it is and the world as it 

519
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:12,800
should be. 
That's what's all about. 

520
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,560
And maybe one millimetre, a 
centimetre, whatever. 

521
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,960
And then I said there are hopes.
There are reasons for hope for 

522
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,360
me, and you must have studied 
this, the biggest hope globally 

523
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,000
is of course, the coming full 
liberation of women hasn't yet 

524
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,920
taken place globally. 
It will have to take place. 

525
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:38,880
You have huge obstacles in 
Afghanistan and Iran and so 

526
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,120
forth, but my God, it's coming. 
I've seen this. 

527
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,920
That's the biggest reason for 
long term structural optimism. 

528
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,440
The second reason is young 
people, if we do it right with 

529
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:55,360
them, understand that we must 
bring them in and work not only 

530
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,320
for them. 
We should do more for them, but 

531
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,440
we should do more with. 
I go to school sometimes I have 

532
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,360
9 grandchildren, 6 and three in 
the US and I'll go to their 

533
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:11,400
schools and my God, they are so 
good on environment, on war and 

534
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,600
peace, on truth, everything 
moral compass perfect. 

535
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:20,440
So if we sort of see that as a 
sort of huge challenge, another 

536
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,800
project by the way, young people
and the the third reason for 

537
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:32,280
which also affect is in your in 
your area that is research and 

538
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,520
science and knowledge 
innovation, technology. 

539
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,560
I negotiate, as you may know, 
the 17 sustainable development 

540
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,840
goals. 
We won't be able to to to reach 

541
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,400
them without the enormous, you 
know, developments in in science

542
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,679
research and so forth, on 
cities, on energy, on transport 

543
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:53,679
and so forth. 
And then the fourth reason, I 

544
00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:56,080
was about to say the last 
reason, but the fourth reason 

545
00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:59,800
rope is of course international 
corporation, which is not the 

546
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,280
amount. 
To. 

547
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,160
Come back in use because we 
can't just continue to look 

548
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,960
inward and burn our future. 
Yeah, that is true. 

549
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,560
And that that looking inward is,
is like you said, effect of 

550
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,040
fear, because you want to have 
your circle trust as small as 

551
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,840
possible. 
And I always hear and not you're

552
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,720
not one of them, but I always 
hear this worry about the young 

553
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:26,520
generation that that's been in 
every generation. 

554
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,560
It's always been the young who 
has been lost it. 

555
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,840
No, it's us who's who are old 
and don't really understand them

556
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,880
because the young people are 
smart. 

557
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,880
They probably know more about 
the world than we did when we 

558
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,280
were at that age. 
They're more knowledgeable. 

559
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,840
It's just that they're not 
talking in our language. 

560
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,920
And the the biggest fear is that
maybe we will spread the fear 

561
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,040
into them as well, that there 
are no future. 

562
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,800
Good point. 
Very good, very good. 

563
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,080
That we must avoid. 
Thank you. 

564
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,120
I think we're running out of 
time, but this was really. 

565
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,520
Interesting. 
I I feel we just started. 

566
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:03,720
Quite a flow. 
Yeah, we. 

567
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,520
Did sometimes it's good not to 
sort of be sort of in detail 

568
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:13,680
prepared that you allow your 
pain to to work independently 

569
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,400
and just let go?