Hey guys, it's Chris here. I wanted to jump on real quick,
and give you an update as to what's going on with the
podcast. And why there isn't a story
episode today. As of right now, my wife and I
are traveling in our camper van across the country, visiting,
friends, and family. And to be completely honest,
this week has been super busy, I haven't had a moment.
It's time to really focus on the story episode and that is
definitely in the works, but I didn't want to leave you guys
hanging in today's episode. We're going to be listening to
an interview with dr. J Allen hynek.
Now if you recall from episode 1 Grandma's, UFO encounter dr.
J Allen hynek was the lead investigator hired by the
government to Decayed, the strange UFO encounters that were
happening in Michigan during 1966.
If you haven't listened to that episode, I highly recommend
going back and listening to that first.
Now this interview was conducted in 1977, so Ten Years After
Grandma's. UFO encounter, dr.
Hynek has changed his opinion over the years, and has really
made it. His life's mission to figure
out. Out what on Earth.
These UFO sightings are in the interview conducted by JP
McCarthy. You get to really hear the
hard-hitting questions and dr. Hynek I think handles it.
Very scientifically and practically but it's also
extremely fascinating. How he's changed his viewpoint
on what these things are. People also call in with their
experiences, he answers their questions and this may seem I
did, but I think it's very applicable to what we're
experiencing today with all of the news and the UFO sightings
that are happening around the world.
So, without further Ado, here's the interview with dr.
J Allen, hynek, there has been new interest, rekindled, because
of the incredible success of a movie called Close Encounters of
the Third Kind for which dr. Hynek was a technical consultant
made a cameo appearances. A matter of fact, and we thought
It might be interesting to peruse with him some of the
reports over the last 30 years in the information that he has
sifted through and see what he really thinks about it.
All some of his credentials. Well, he four years headed up
the Air Force's investigations into unidentified flying object.
Seems self was a debunker for a very long time.
You remember the marsh, guess explanation for the sightings in
Washtenaw County and in Hillsdale, 10 years ago, that
was dr. Hynix idea, he Till very
recently was professor of the astronomy department at
Northwestern University's head of the center for UFO studies in
Chicago and he has devoted a good portion of his life into
studying the phenomenon known as UFOs dr.
Hynek. On a very snowy, blowy morning
on this Friday in Detroit were pleased that you were here.
Welcome. Well, I'm glad to be here.
I wanted to know the correct tooth minor points wonders.
I did not head up. The are forcing.
I was a consultant to them and I'm still L.
Am professor of astronomy at Northwestern.
I I did not have one more year to go there before calendar
catches, and I rich something. Just this morning.
I had been advertising all week long, I thought I'd read
something, just this morning that said, that you had resigned
that I'm gonna bore. I resigned my chairmanship are
chairman for 15 years. Yes.
Okay. Well you were still with
Northwest. Yes.
Still with Northwestern, right? He did not unidentified flying
objects. Have been popular since 1947
1948. When the the Bevy of them were
cited before that were there any reports in history?
As far as you're concerned of UFOs.
Oh yes. There are many reports but
still, they're so hard to track down and even now if any
reporters more than they say you're too old, it's hard to
track down but we course clear back to Biblical times the Z Qs
wheel would have been a good example and Saul of Tarsus and
the road to Damascus. And the old all through history,
there have been reports and stories of strange sights in the
sky and on the ground. But I have my hands.
So full, with the present ones, I mean, the current ones that
it's hardly any point to worry about the others.
How do you go about investigating a UFO report?
A, you get a report of a sighting.
The you if it sounds reasonable to you dear?
Then contact the people and do an in-depth interview with them.
Oh not only the people, but a lot of peripheral material, we
have an outgoing W line and we have a full-time paid
investigator and as calls come In and we get through our police
hotline, we get several calls a day.
Certainly, he then contacts not only the original Witnesses, but
the police departments in that area.
The FAA, the weather bureau NORAD radar installations.
In other words, he does everything he can to break it
down into a normal thing. We say, who we talking about?
I'm talking about are paid investigator, mr.
Allen, Henry. Who is the chap?
Who does a very fine job in tracking down?
And then of course, we have a quorum Vestigators around the
country who so we can enlist on a voluntary volunteer basis.
There's some that are just so ridiculous and seemed so
unlikely to be anything worthwhile she just simply on
the after the initial evidence you don't bother investigating
him any further. Well it's the ones that are
unlikely, the strange ones are the ones we really find.
We have to investigate the ones that we don't have to
investigate are so typical. For instance, we will get
stories of That are generated by these advertising planes.
You know the planes that have these rotating Marquee lights
from a distance. Those look like a rotating disk
but we we can spot them and mr. Henry has the phone numbers is,
I'm 70 airplane, advertising companies.
And all we do is call those places and ask them.
Did you have a plane at that point at that time?
I would we do in this the publication you have on your
elbow there, the international UFO reporter each month we
publish. If you take a look at the back
page each Each month. We publish a map of the United
States and which we plot all the cases that have come to our
attention. Those that we can solve.
We put in as we plot as dots. Those are, we can't solve we
plot as stars. Of course, it's the stars were
interested in, but you can see also that the dots far outnumber
the Stars. The people simply are not aware
of the number of purely normal things that a person can see, in
the sky. Now, what's an ifo?
The dots are ifos. Those are identified flying
objects, can you've got a looking in the It looks as
though there were three or four identified flying objects
spotted in the Detroit area. Or I'm sure each month now this
I think maybe I don't want to mention this several times may
be a good starter right now. You started out with the
introductory music from Close Encounters which Title by the
way was my title. I call this the 18 million
dollar movie with a thousand dollar title because that's all
I got for the title. Let's go.
Describe this to me on the phone month ago or so, well, actually
three weeks ago but let's let's do it again.
Let's let's go back to the beginning, what does a close
encounter mean, okay? Close encounter is citing that
is closed and buy clothes. I mean, within a few hundred
feet, less than 500 feet. Generally, other words there
should be little chance of misidentifying it with a
Venusaur twinkling star. I mean, it's close by Okay.
And they I divided them purposely into three kinds
Close, Encounters of the first kind, the second kind of Third
Kind. The first kind is closed, but
nothing really happens. Outside of the fact that people
get frightened and it's quite an experience for them and Close.
Encounters of the second kind. Are those in which some sort of
physical residue, not a part of the UFO.
We still don't have a front bumper from a few F or anything
like that but we do have hundreds of cases.
And I mean words of cases in which at the precise spot where
the UFO was seen, there is a burnt ring or holes in the
ground that obviously, or obviously don't seem to be
coming from anything else. Broken tree, branches animals
affected animals affected, how so.
Well, they'll get tremendously panicky cattle.
Stampede for instance. A horses were raised a fuss in
the barn and we've had cases of Workhorse dogs.
Early barking. That's, that's not terribly
exciting, but we've had cases of of the bull.
For instance, there was tethered by to an iron Rod through its
nose and got so frightened about the iron rod in half.
So that I'd say, is an animal effect, or an effect on the
animal. And we had that the center for
UFO studies. We have now published a catalog
of some 800 of 1,100 now of such cases.
Okay, this UFO, reporter, this monthly That you release for a
dollar will get to in just a few minutes.
I want to talk to you though, about the much, celebrated
release of information by the Air Force for years.
The Air Force, kept the lid, on all this UFO information in
People, magazine and August 1976, and a big article about
you. You said the Air Force will open
its UFO files and it will make juicy reading.
Well, that's a year and a half ago.
Nothing started. He has come up the President,
Carter indicated, or at least US News and World Report magazine
indicated that President. Carter this year would make some
sort of announcement about UFOs. Nothing.
There's always been an awful lot of smoke but no fire, what is
it? Well, the only only solid thing
that's come out of that. CU President Carter asked NASA
to undertake a study of UFOs and they very politely refused, and
they had good reasons, but I would like to talk about those
later. The Air Force did the National
Archives did release the files of Project Blue Book on which I
was Consulting for a good many years.
And that is Incorporated in my new book, The, which is very
modestly called the hynek UFO report.
What I do there is I think that does many of those do my juicy
reading. Juicy, not in the usual
newsstand sense, but you see in the sense that it shows how they
are formed, Horse really bungled, many of the cases and
there. Did they very real job of
keeping cases from the public? They why?
Why would they do that? Largely because they had were
operating under a very strong recommendation of this from the
CIA which convened a panel of special town in 1953 called the
Robertson panel and which I was an associate member.
Incidentally, the CIA was not frightened of UFOs.
They were frightened of UFO reports.
They were afraid that the public might panic, and at that time,
particularly, they were terribly concerned about subversive
elements in the country and they thought that these, these
subversive elements, a communist might use the whole UFO
phenomenon, UFO clubs and UFO organizations as fronts for
subversive activities. And so they strongly recommend
that the Air Force to everything.
You can could to debunk the situation, you were one of the
major. I was one of the major
debunkers. I mean, because I thought that
the whole thing Was a lot of junk if you change your mind.
Yes, I agree. Absolutely significant the
otherwise I wouldn't be heading up the center for UFO studies.
Do you believe that many of these UFO reports are?
Not only real, but that are extraterrestrial.
E directed. There are three basic theories
of the UFO today. Won the first, of course, is
that. It is complete nonsense.
Second is that they are extraterrestrial vehicles and
the third is that they really represent something from another
dimension of parallel reality. There may be four or five others
that I don't know about. Oh, there are some fans for
one's very fanciful. Indeed, all of these are
fanciful, except the first one I think is fanciful to the.
There's some people who speak of our future coming back to look
at us and things. That would certainly be sure.
Sheer science fiction but it sounds like science fiction.
Did you can you even buy the concept of that our future
coming back? Beloved us?
I can't time machine stuff. No, no I can't.
Who are they for what's the parallel reality?
Well, that's an intriguing concept and it shouldn't bother
us so much because good Heavens. I don't know which particular
religion. You happen to be.
But all of our major religions and great philosophers and
Prophets of the past. Of all told us that the physical
world is not the whole thing that there are other planes of
existence, where do angels exist, rinse, the Bible's full
of angels, for instance. Well, that would be an example
of a parallel reality or another more practical example is right
now, even though we're in a radio Studio, there are passing
through this room, television pictures.
Mmm. But we can't see, but it's it
represents a sort of a parallel reality.
Okay? Another dimension, put it that
way. There's nothing, nothing too
fanciful about that. I mean.
Well, there's this there's nothing fanciful about it from
the sense that it's been discussed for a long time, but
when you stop and think about it, it doesn't make any sense at
all and two-dimensional thing something that has no depth.
That doesn't make sense to me. And no, I would it appear
suddenly? No, I'm not hard and, you know,
I'm not a two-dimensional but a four or five dimensional.
Why would it suddenly appear in hours in our three-dimensional
World, an interface? Have you ever read this little
scene? This delightful.
A book called flatland by a square.
Yes. And there you see brings it down
by one dimension. It talks about creatures
triangles, octagons, hexagons and squares that all live on a
large sheet of paper. And the, the, I think it's the
triangles have precedence over the squares and the winners
triangle meets the heck that square A square has got to give
way. And one day a sphere comes to
visit them. You remember what happens to
these people that live in the two Dimensions, they first see
it as a point and enlarges it. Large Circle, and then it
disappears again. There's the sphere passes
through that sheet of paper, you see, and all you have to do and
I say all you have to do is just up that by one dimension instead
of a two-dimensional or three-dimensional and I four
dimensional thing would appear to us magically it would appear
by Magic much like the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland.
Remember the Cheshire Cat the Disappeared.
Leaving only its grin where it went into another dimension and
Marsh gas. Gosh you invented you coined the
word ten years ago or so I want to talk about that and get on
the telephone to have some listeners have been very
patiently. Hanging on our number is eight
seven, five, four, four, seven, six, and dr.
Hynek will answer your calls. Okay, we'll see what you have to
say any Close Encounters. You might have had or would like
to ask. Do you have been holding on the
line very patiently? What is it?
You'd like to ask dr. Hynek yeah, for a good morning
dr. Hynek, good morning, yes.
I have two questions. And number one under the United
States, Freedom of Information Act, how does a United States
citizen obtain? A copy of the Project Blue Book.
All right, that's available. It's a little expensive, but
it's available in ninety four. Reels of microfilm that run you
about a thousand dollars if you want those.
However, that's precisely what I did.
I got those 90 for reals. And have extracted taken out
the, my say, the juicy parts and published them in the Dell
paperback. The hynek UFO report, which
ought to be available in in bookstores around here and
that's your easiest way of getting information.
If you want to spend $1000 and buyer, the 94 reels of microfilm
from the archives fine, but I it's a little on the expensive
side and my second question. If a group of men have designed
a prototype of a elect electronic magnetic, ion
propulsion engine, where would you recommend they go in order
to get a patent on this development?
Well you've you've introduced the term patent there.
I think it's always a wise idea to have one's ideas protected by
patents because the world is full of unscrupulous people.
I would somehow I've never had a patent in my life but I've had
many copyrights but not patents. I expect a patent wire would be
the first person to see about that.
Well, apart from that, I would say I would certainly contact
some people in, NASA in Washington, say that you have
all those have this thing and they undoubtedly would be
interested. Now, they're basically very
honest group and I don't think they would steal your idea.
Okay. Thank you sir.
Thank you very much. Hello, you're on the radio here
on WJR with dr. J Allen hynek.
Yes. About three years ago and Air
Force and Air Force, installation on the East Coast
there appeared three unidentified flying objects over
the ocean. Now, the Air Force Security
people the base commander, all the people on that Air Force
Base people in the surrounding towns saw.
These objects. Franny call with me to an Air
Force Base for fighter and investigation, the people at the
fighter base that don't worry about it.
They watch these UFOs for about two hours.
There were three of them. They didn't know the size of
them. Or the distance that they were
away, because they were over water, and they had nothing to
judge them by. They stay there approximately
two hours and then took off, now, they took off at a speed
that must have been about five to ten times the speed of a
Rocket taking off. Now, have you heard about that
and can you explain it? Well, first of all, I certainly
couldn't explain it other than calling you to UFO and every
let's always remember that the you and UFO simply means
unidentified, right. No, I had not heard any, we may
have, we have in our computerized Data Bank, some
60,000 reports, and we can get print out.
So that any, if you, for instance, wanted to know what
cases there were in your own neighborhood or in the yurt
County or something, the sort of your state, we can have a
printout of that but I don't have the computer bank with me
here. So I don't know that that
particular case, you know, one thing we forgot.
JP is we forgot. In re talking about the UFO
reporter. We've got to give the address to
where people might get it and I'd be delighted to do that.
I'm sure you just want to ask me where one can get it.
That was, I was going to give it for you, but I don't see it on
here. 924, Chicago abydos, right?
Or just simply and annoy is sufficient where well enough
known their UFO reporter. Evanston Illinois will take.
The zip is 6020 to our, that's always important, unless I go
with, let me add this now, that is, it's going to cost you a
dollar asset. Since the 1200 dollar, copy less
than a drink. We it sir.
Let me ask you this and we've got about want to get onto the
weather and then we'll get back on the telephone.
But some folks did you did you witness these yellow gold?
Have our yes. Did you see these?
No fair, I did not personally see these, but I was informed by
very reliable sources people, if we had hoped this morning to get
some, some Direct first-hand. Ports of yeah.
And I think that's one thing we want to tell the listeners and
that it's their scientific duty to report things that they feel
were really truly puzzling. Because we have very good
evidence at the center for UFO studies.
That 9 out of 10 people who have had a UFO experience have failed
to report it simply because they feared ridicule, right with
ridicule is a very real thing. It certainly is sir.
Thank you for calling. Thank you very much.
Okay, we'll be on the telephone and just a couple seconds.
We would like to believe me if you have feared ridicule and you
think you've seen something? Frightened you or startled, you
that you couldn't explain and didn't tell anyone about it.
The anonymity anonymity of the telephone and the radio is
yours. It's not an easy word to say
this, our damage to be 17 before 8:00 on, WJR with dr.
Honey. Yes, I called to say that.
I think I'm one of the nine out of 10 who never reported a
sighting occurred about 10:30 at night on a pole.
Windy rainy spring night about a year ago and was proceeding.
On a highway and saw a huge red light up ahead.
And my first thought was that this was possibly the top light
of new antenna or you know, tower that they put an
obstruction light on and was huge and as I proceeded North on
the highway, in The Light Came toward me, I could see that it
was not one life but two lights which had merged as one at a
distance and Between the two lights, were possibly a faint,
green light, and then just maybe a hazy grey light on each side
of the green light in the center.
And then, of course, the two red lights on the outer side, which
were huge by the way. And then to a white spot lights,
which were crisscrossing on each side of the red light.
Wow, that what a vivid description that is, well, I'm
glad you're reporting it now. Are you, did you do demonstrate
one thing with Traveler? Go call the escalation of
hypothesis. There are when people do finally
report, they will say, at first, I thought it was an accident on
the road and that the light was a flasher Beacon, then I
realized it wasn't that and then I thought it was maybe an
aircraft coming in and so forth. People try to explain it to them
to themselves first and then they sort of driven up to the
wall and they did realize that they can't explain it.
Now, how did, how long did this whole thing?
Last I'd like to ask you? Okay, I let me put it this way.
I turned off. Off I-75 onto a highway going
directly, north and south, my home, being exactly four miles
away. And I proceeded, probably half a
mile when I saw the red light. Now, that's little hilly in this
area. And I saw the red light when I
finally travel, maybe another mile and a half, which would be
two miles away from my home. I got a very good.
Look at the course it was dark about 10:30 at night, it was
bowling raining, you know, type of evening and I got a good look
at it, put it approximately a two To Crossroads.
And I lost my train of thought I would very much like to have you
and any other listeners who was one of the nine out of ten to
write it up and reported, send it into the center for UFO
studies in Evanston. Illinois.
And we operate like as a clinic. You might say, we never divulge
the names of people who report to us.
So that your report is treated completely confidentially.
We release your name, only with your permission.
Mission. So you don't have to worry about
that. Okay, dr.
Hynek, what of the claims made? When I had, when I told what I
had seen to France was that this was an advertising plane and, of
course, it seems ridiculous to me at 10:30 in the evening with
a rainy boy night that an advertising plane would be out.
Well, 10:30 in the evening, wouldn't be bad, but they were
the Rainy blowing night and also they don't fly that.
How lower the clouds? Do you imagine know that?
I can't tell? You know, there was no fact but
of course obviously Stars are visible.
There's nothing in the sky and the red lights are so huge.
I have looked constantly every night.
I go out to see if there's a petition was written large.
This it would be almost like a stop light up in the sky and how
I lost my train of thought went home.
How did it disappear? Well.
Okay, then at that point, I was heading north on the highway to
go home and I continued the two miles and ran in the house.
Got a pair of binoculars, jump back in the car, and went back
down the road, but it was gone. Gone.
Hmm and of course as I said, my first thought that it was the
right on top of obstruction line on top of a new tower, but
having lived in the area for 10 years.
And I've since worked and obviously there's no power
there. How close do you think?
I know judging distances at night is very difficult.
But how close do you think it may have come to, okay?
A ten-point at the spot where I got a good look at it at
approximately like a quarter of a mile away, or at least it were
the two roads crossed their quarter of a mile away. that
doesn't make it a close encounter, but it makes it a
good nocturnal light on the basis of 7u, it doesn't strike
you as an advertising plan, doesn't know, not from what
you've said and the weather seems to argue against that
because the only thing was that I could see no form because it
was so dark. I could see where these huge
lights with the two spotlights criss-crossing at the outer end
of the red light. I don't suppose you lower the
window and listen, did you do I didn't cut?
It was raining and blowing hurt. Yeah.
Well, please do send that report into the center for UFO studies
in Evanston. Illinois 6020 to Now there's
another one, if you have the time, which it can you hang on
for just a half a second. Okay, I've got to take care of a
little business here, and we'll be back on the telephone.
We want to give some of the other folks have been hanging
out a chance to. Okay.
We would you mind calling us back a little later?
No problem. Thank you.
Madam. My I don't think you do want the
cloak of anonymity so just go ahead and tell dr.
Hynek your story, I don't mind giving the location.
This was on October, the second 1973.
I'm reading some notes that I'd written down a couple three
years ago. It was a 10:15 p.m. and it was
about five miles. North of route to 70 on Route 23
in central Ohio. Now, I commute this route for
like nine years and so it was, it was easy to spot, something
out of the ordinary. And there was a, I have written
here on oval white with a reddish, Gleek Green Glow to the
left of the road. It was about A quarter of a mile
off the road, probably 100 to 200 feet in the air, so it
wasn't very far up. It was a bright night so you
could see the shape of it against the sky.
It was probably about a 20 degree ellipse shape.
I written that it was probably about 40 feet across 30 to 40
feet across. I got pretty excited at the time
so I didn't stop but I did have the Phenomenon.
I guess you'd call it of having my automobile, quit running
properly. The lights dimmed in the motor
began to miss. Like, when it's running out of
gas for just a few moments and then it started running again
fine and I pulled in the state highway patrol and I got a
patrolman out and we both looked at it and I asked him if that
was something that he knew about, he said only from phone
calls coming in And I couldn't really understand why anything
like that be around Ohio except that it occurred to me that this
is Perkins Observatory. One of the big radio telescopes
has would have been less than a half-mile from it beg.
Pardon. I used to work at Perkins
Observatory for many years, so, now, the area.
I know the area very well. Yeah, it was right on the hill.
They called Kingman Hill me as I know that.
Well, it was just, I'd say, 300 yards to the left of the road
and not very high up. Well, no, I definitely want you
to send this report in, to me at the center for UFO studies in
not as Joe said, Chicago. But Evanston, Illinois, and the
zip is 6020 to okay, and your name will not be used without
your permission, so don't worry about that, okay?
This is a very interesting case. What is your technical
background of my, if I may ask, I'm not a technician, I'm a I'm
a commercial artist. Hey, you can draw this thing for
us when you come, how about a good sketch?
I could do that. That would be great.
I like that. You know, your experience sounds
an awful lot. Like, one of the episodes from
the movie, Close Encounters, then a doctor having yes it
does. Except that was moving much more
his, this made, no movement. It just stayed stationary in the
sky, like you'd be looking at a big big lady described like a
big tower, but there was nothing supporting it seemed to be some
One, or was it a, just a light? It seemed to be solid, you know,
but it hadn't enjoyed and glow to it.
That's the only good word. I can describe.
I thought at the beginning, it was a helicopter with blinking
lights, but when you got close enough, you could see that they
weren't blinking lights, they were undulating glowing areas of
light while he's not defined sort of moving and then it just
disappeared, you know, it didn't make any movement, it didn't go
off quickly or anything. It just simply There any longer
you said the policeman also sought yes, right?
They have no way of knowing his name but I did report it to the
state patrol and in it was the Delaware offer.
We're going, we're taking reports then and writing them
down. At least they told me they were
young and they were getting other calls about it that every
time. Yeah, when I walked into the
station because I happen to be right there.
I used to live in Delaware for years so I know the area I see
well I had written down two or three others that alright.
It down and send to you. I have a tape because I switch
my tape recorder on the car. Looks very good and I couldn't
locate it this morning because I really am not sure where I put
it, but I'd like to hear it again.
Myself, please do send me a copy of that too, would you?
Okay. I'll be glad to now David.
The address again for both of you and our other listeners and
those who want to subscribe to the international UFO, reporter
is the center for UFO studies, Evanston Eva and is to you.
And Evan Illinois, 60, 20, 20, 20 to write.
Thank you very much for calling. Thank you.
It's nice of you to do that, but from Delaware, Ohio, that
qualifies as a genuine close encounter, I would say so yes.
Hang on for a second, we'll take more calls with dr.
J Allen hynek and our UFO close encounter morning here on WJR.
Detroit, you know, an awful lot of people are coming out of the
closet. These days, I don't know whether
it's because of the effect of the movie, A lot of people have
seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
Box office reports indicate that it will be one of the best seen
most seen movies in history, but there was a surprise about that
dr. Hynek explain, something that
you thought might happen as a result of the success of the
movie. That hasn't, well, I thought
until it's sorted, many others that, you know, people who would
never bother, looking up at the sky before would look up after
having seen that picture and they would make the same sort of
mistakes that have been made by thousands of people, they would
mistake Jupiter, and Venus and meteors, and Adelaide from God
knows what but that is not been happening.
Oddly enough. What has been happening?
Is that the picture has apparently given people courage
to report things that they were reluctant to report before, and
cases that are several years old are coming out of the closet.
So to speak said Vivid, you welcome that kind of, Newser, is
old news. Just so difficult to follow up
on that, it's hardly worth while.
Oh, no. Those are.
Those are, those are the ones we really want because the current
ones are apt to be mistakes, but something that happened to a
person five years ago and they have remembered it vividly isn't
as apt to be a genuine case. Okay, in Pascagoula Mississippi
that rather famous case were two fishermen.
Supposedly went under hypnotic, regression and talked about an
experience with a, with a visitor, a spaceship or
something. Tell us that story, and tell us
what you think about it. Well, that is the case that I
investigate I was there within Eight hours after it happened.
What did they say happened? Well the two men were Charlie
Hickson and Calvin Parker and what they said happened is that
they were fishing on the banks of the Pascagoula River.
And this I'll make a short story.
His craft came down, we did not land as Harvard behind them and
to very, very odd looking creatures.
Floated down, lifted and floated, Charlie Higson back,
aboard. And he told us that an
instrument, that looks something like a big, I passed over him
several times. As though giving him a medical
examination. And when I got down there, I
found those men. Definitely in a State of Shock.
They there's no question in my mind that they think this
happened that is to them. It was a very real experience
whether it was real in the, our sense of real, I honestly don't
know. But what is real philosophers
have been worrying about that, for centuries to them, it was
real and they did, they could not undergo, hypnosis, the
nurture harder try to hypnotize. Charlie Higson, but he resisted
it and got terribly terribly upset.
So whether I'm not sure what that means.
But if this were the only case like that, I would dismiss it
out of hand, for we have dozens of cases similar to that.
Matter of fact, what is not known and maybe even you don't
know Joe that, that case, hit the Press.
But within a few weeks on either side of that, famous case on
October 11th, 1973 there were 70 Other cases of Close Encounters
of the Third Kind, which were not reported to the Press at the
center for UFO studies. We've just published a report on
there called 1973 year of the humanoids and that's also
obtainable for the center for UFO studies.
Now the, the humanoids, these creatures that these people say,
they say they saw. Do they look anything like the
the creatures as depicted in Close?
Encounters the movie. Oh, absolutely.
In fact, that where you got it from?
That's where Steven Spielberg? From he when I became a
technical advisor to Close Encounters of the Third Kind at
first, I was not going to have anything to do with a Hollywood
movie because I felt that would really ruin my scientific
credibility. But when I discovered that
Spielberg had really done his homework very well and had was
very knowledgeable. He based the appearance of the
creatures pretty much on actual UFO reports.
Yeah, yes ma. Well they looked at they almost
look like an embryo Ow. Yeah, well actually I would tend
to describe them know in general as overgrown, goblins are
generally large head, spindly bodies and I am not making this
up. This is what's reported, you
see, and I'm acting here, largely.
Just as a reporter. Telling you, what?
What people tell me you were a great disbeliever.
I want to talk about that. And how much you've changed?
I met, dr. Hynek, in a minute here, it was
his doing. He It was - gasps I want to find
out about that in just a second. You were sightings of something
UFO, sightings in the Ann Arbor area.
Also Dexter and Dexter. And as I recall noodles, Dale
and you came in, you were great to Bunker.
In those days, you were, you headed the investigation team
for the Air Force, in my right coming in to have a look.
It was their consultant. Well, I had an investigation
that immediate one. Yes, yeah.
Well that's what I meant and you determined.
It was Marsh gas. How did you make that
determination? Oh boy.
Well the point is that At the press conference, which they
tell me, was the largest in history that Detroit, Press
Club. At that time, I had said and I
have it on record that if we limited our attention to the
faint light, that the girls at Hillsdale had seen in the swampy
area, the Arboretum that those could be explained as swamp gas,
but what happened here is that the reporters apparently needed
a buzzword and swamp gas was it. And soon as I mentioned that,
they underlined it in their press release and dashed off to
the telephones and Couldn't say hold on boy.
That's not the whole story swamp gas was it and I believed it and
it is a matter of fact the faint light still could have been
explained as swamp grass but not them.
Nothing major side he's not the large things that were reported.
Okay, did the Air Force ever? Tell you, you look dr.
Hynek we don't want to cause any Panic.
Explain this away as natural phenomena.
Well, did they say that to you either directly or /?
Insinuation by insinuation? Yes, but not directly, they
never gave me any specific orders, but it was quite clear
that they wanted me to do the best.
I could to explain it as a natural thing.
Yeah. And I tried but today I would do
it quite differently today. I would say, look, let's you
can't conduct a scientific investigation in this excitable
atmosphere with reporters buzzing around and you Don't get
a halfway thought in edgewise. And so, I would say we would
have to get together data studied carefully, and come out
with some sort of a Jelly's preliminary idea in a few days
or a week but not on the spur of the moment.
How many books have you written on the subject of UFOs?
Well, the first one was the UFO experience which was the in
which I coined the phrase Close Encounter of the Third Kind.
And then this most recent one, the hynek UFO report but didn't
have another one with jointly with Jacques de molay, called
the edge of reality, but behind the UFO report, even though the
title is not a very modest one eye, Was a Publisher's idea.
By the way, is an Exposé really of the Air Force handling,
because I was there for those many years and I saw the way in
which the Air Force the Cavalier way in which therefore has
handled this whole problem, did they just out of hand, cover it
up, just to, but without any investigation at all know, they
would make investigations. And as I point out in the book,
The more certain they were that it was a natural thing.
The more they would investigate, they, they went out.
And they would read from any that comes in from the air, and
it's a little difficult little face losing to say, look,
there's something in our atmosphere that we don't
understand. It's much easier to say, whether
it's a, we do understand it Perfectly Natural.
It's a swamp gas. Its aircraft and so forth.
Was this on a directive? From some power on high, the
secretary of the Air Force or the president of the United
States, or was this you You think that this responsibility
was assumed by some generals? Well, the Project Blue Book and
the director of the people who ran it had a job to do and they
were acting pretty much under the directive or direct
recommendation of the CIA convened Robertson panel, which
was only the air for the CIA was not afraid of UFOs.
They were afraid of UFO reports in the things that you reports
might do. Two people at that time, this
whole question of subversion was much more in the air than it is
today. And they were afraid that the
various UFO flying saucer clubs and organizations might be used
as fronts for subversive activity.
Also, another thing that was very important in July of 1950
to for several days, the military wires became literally
clogged with UFO reports and the CIA was afraid that if Some
Nation wanted to launch another Pearl Harbor.
All they need to do would be to get their agents to spawn a
whole bunch of false, UFO reports, clog the military wires
and confuse the situation so they see how it was quite
seriously. Concerned.
Not so much with UFOs but with UFO reports, motivated dude,
with good reason. Good reason, Buncombe.
Oh, yes, yes. And they give their director
with their recommendation, I should say was a very strong one
that the Air Force do everything in its power to debunk.
Play down a hole. Work sort of thing and you were
part of that debunk. I was part of that.
You have you ever seen a flying saucer?
I've never had a close encounter but on two occasions I have seen
things which I definitely could not explain and have not been
able to explain to this day as an astronomy Professor.
It's unlikely that they were celestial bodies.
Now they're well, that's very true.
I mean, that's one thing I do believe I'm competent to
identified although it's surprising how many people are
not. That is people are still puzzled
very much by a very bright meteor, even train.
The pilots were we had cases in which commercial pilots have
swerved their airplanes thinking that they were on a head-on
collision. Course with something to turned
out to be a very bright meteor 100 miles away or so.
And we're gonna get on the telephone again and encourage
folks, if they would like to talk to dr.
Hynek that we would like to talk to people who have had to use
his coined phrase, close encounters and we will offer you
and eliminate on the telephone number is eight seven, five,
four, four, seven, six, several people on the line.
Have you had a close encounter Yes, I have.
I have some photographs that I took in 1974 of UFO and I've
never known what agency to get in contact with that might be
interested in them. Well, you got one now and I'm
very anxious to see the photographs please do, send
them, but don't send the original negatives.
I don't want to be responsible for those but hang on to those,
but let me see The Prince and in if we want to have been
investigated further, then I would make arrangements, special
arrangements to see the original negatives.
Okay? Or should I send them to the
Center for UFO studies? 924 Chicago Avenue Evanston,
Illinois. And that's the zip is 60 20 to
60 2002. Okay.
Yes.
We're on the radio here on WJR, dr.
Hynek is listening to you. Go ahead.
Thank you. Are dr.
Hynek I ever was in high school and 47 when this phenomenon for
starting our radar and ever since then the things I've
lectured on. And what have you?
I want to ask you a couple of things, I realized the other
people on the line. So get off as quickly as
possible. I want to ask you about the flap
in Washington DC in 1952 and for six hours, a these things are
over the Pentagon and then gave them a fit down there on.
Ask you about the possibility that in Wright-Patterson Air
Force Base in Ohio that they do have, I've heard the remains of
an occupant of a UFO. When you talk about the pictures
that we don't have that the Air Force probably does have when
they were asked to put cameras in the nose of their Jets.
When they chase these things of the Couldn't catch him.
Lisa can take pictures of them could you comment on any of
these things? Yeah, I'm very quickly on all of
them. The 1952 flap has never been
adequately explained, they've tried to call it atmospheric and
version, but the inversion was not very strong at that time.
And so it is still unexplained as far as the remains or
cadavers of UFO occupants at right field.
I think that is just a story we've never had any.
I've never found any evidence that that was And of course, if
any one of our listeners has that information that could be
authenticated, I would be delighted to know about it.
Think that story had great currency a couple of years ago
and it's it pops up every once in a while right now.
As far as the aircraft Air Force photographs I too have heard
that I've been told by military Pilots that when they got back
to base their gun camera, photos were confiscated and so forth
but whenever I ask these people to go to a notary public and And
the swear out an affidavit that this is true.
They say, Well, they're remember the reserves or they can't
they're under oath or something of the sort.
So, as far as I'm concerned, those Still Remains stories.
I unauthenticated undocumented stories every day.
They had our Air Force report, PR 200 days, to which said that
Air Force pilots, who had seen anything?
If they had talked to anyone, they didn't maintain secrecy.
They would be such that it In prison are fine or two thousand
dollars, you worry about that? Moving gesture that was in Gina
put 1460, which is still in effect.
It is so that a military pilot must report.
Any unidentified think, of course, their Definition of
unidentified is very, very Broad New Russian, aircraft would be
considered unidentified, they must report and it is quite
true. They're still under considerable
threat of a fine. If they say they're allowed to
To talk about it. If it is identified, there are
not allowed to talk about as long as it remains unidentified.
I want to point out that the movie was just tremendous from
one who has been reading for years on this.
I didn't see it. As science fiction did such a
good job on depicting situation that I had read about four years
one. Last question, sir, the seems to
me that these things appear so often that their appearances can
almost be predictable. Would you say that's okay, well,
we're trying. We are for were running computer
studies now on As soon as it appears that possibly will be
able to predict waves of UFO sightings in the future, but
it's still too early to say hi. There is certainly an unusual
interest in our nuclear installations are care about
these things, you know, let me let me have a Perfectly Natural,
explanation is the military installation, the nuclear X
installations, especially of course, have 24-hour guards, and
they're out there watching and they would be more apt to see
something. When it happens, of course,
another explanation is that They're under surveillance but I
don't know, dr. Webber.
What are your thoughts is to if indeed these things are
extraterrestrial e directed, why don't they land make themselves
known? Well, that's one of the
questions that's the situation. They don't why.
Well, I suppose I could turn the question around and say why
should they? I don't know.
It's you might just we'll ask why do kangaroos jump?
They do. See The hardest thing to get
across in this whole field is that this is a research problem.
We have lots of questions and very few answers.
I might turn around asking why don't we have the cure for
cancer yet? We've been studying it for a
long while but it's like so many people, see these things.
It just it just makes logical sense to say well they
apparently mean no harm because so far as we know, they have
caused none or at least very little, they are obviously
curious or they wouldn't be Keeping us under surveillance or
having a look, why don't they land and make themselves known?
That's, that's a great question. I wish I knew the answer hang
out for a second doctor dr. J Allen hynek with us.
So almost 8:45 on a snowy, Friday morning in Detroit.
Warming you up with talk of you after that, Mel wanted to know
about that guy. Well, that's a very good example
of a close encounter of the first kind.
It was very close but nothing really happened.
Young Navy man was walking home from his girlfriend's in near
Exeter New Hampshire. When this brilliantly
illuminated object flashing lights and so forth, swoop down
on him and he swooped into the ditch and getaways
panic-stricken. He then receded, he dashed to
the nearest Farmhouse, pounded, on the door, woke the people,
they call the police, the police came out and there was nothing.
I was just at the police were about to leave the object Rose
from behind the trees and both policeman.
Saw it without any question and their life was made miserable
for them by the Air Force, which refused to believe.
If anything they had said and in my books matter of fact I have
an account in exchange those letters that went between the
two policemen and the Air Force and it was really
Irreprehensible the manner in which the Air Force tried to
smear the reputation of these policemen calling them,
essentially deluded in the so forth.
GOI with why would the Air Force again?
Go to Such Great Lengths to suppress all of this.
They were just under the idea, they adopted the theorem you
might say that, it can't be there for.
It isn't just simply assumed that these things had to be
natural. As I assumed at one time that
obviously, it had to be loud. Nonsense, but you never went
into reputation destroying. However, know that is true, I
would never do that. You know, getting UFO
information. First of all reporting it is a
problem of one has to make a an emotional decision, an
intellectual decision actually, whether they want to get
involved or not and as you point out, nine out of ten, they
decide they do not for fear of ridicule and other reasons to in
order to get some good F. UFO information, do you what do
you recommend a subscription? Of course, I guess to you.
Well, yes I think but let me let me let me.
Back up on that little bit even before the picture Close
Encounters of the Third Kind became so popular.
We'd been getting at the center for UFO studies.
Many many requests from students from various parts of the
country saying that they were doing a term paper and UFOs or
that they were having class discussion.
And just now with the picture, I can imagine that next few months
classrooms all over the country are going to be having UFO
discussions and I think it is really bad that those kids have
to turn to the entire blood Sent to the sleazy magazines and new
stands for their information. They ought to be able to get
especially School, libraries ought to have access to
responsible information and that can be obtained through the
international UFO reporter. Which is a monthly newsletter,
which I edit and which, therefore, I stand back of
anything that's in it. Each month.
For instance, we publish a map of all the cases that have been
reported to us. Those that we can explain we
plot his dog. Ott's those that we can't
explain, we plot a stars and the interesting ones are summarized
in the in the UFO reporter and that's a subscription for that
is $12 a year dollar a month and it is obtainable at the offices
of the center for UFO studies at 924, Chicago, Avenue, Evanston,
Illinois, 6020 to our. It's a matter of fact, just
simply Center for UFO studies, Evanston Illinois, 60 202 is
would suffice, okay, how many people do you have it?
The center for UFO studies? Working about 20 but most of
them are volunteers because the center is funded entirely by
contribution popular contributions voluntary
contributions, which, by the way, I want to hasten to point
out are tax deductible. This is not a UFO club or age is
not supported by the government. Incidentally, if we're being
monitored right now, by anybody up there in any kind of a
vehicle, Cereal or otherwise, and you feel like you would like
to contact us, please do call collect area, KOA query, 1387
544. 40K, you're on the air with strip about 10 years ago, I was
driving from Ann Arbor to Jackson at dusk and I saw a
bright light from a distance, and I thought it was a barn fire
because it was out in the country.
And as I got closer, I realized that it wasn't.
But I still obviously thought of other things that it could Could
be and it was important enough that all the traffic was stopped
and I-94 and pulled off on the side of the road.
Well, I was in a convertible and I was also late for a play.
I was going to. So I kept going, I was off of
frightened and so I kept going and but it has bothered me
enough for 10 years. That I've tried to duplicate it
in my, you try to say something that would be similar and I
never could. And at that time, I did call the
Sheriff's Office and he said, We don't want any reports and we
don't want to hear anything about it and nothing happened
away and never went back. And I said the traffic was
stopped there must have been 60 or 70 cars stopped.
He said lady, you didn't see it, you know, you were really
dreamy, but it was a like, a theater Marquee in.
I mean, the only thing I could in my mind think that it would
like a theater Marquee. But it, but about a three-story
High building and it was large, but the lights were blinking.
In random fashion and beneath it, I thought that it was trying
to repair a radio antenna or something, because there was
this long thing with red lights on it, like a radio antenna, was
it station area? Was it moving?
It was just hovering and there was no sound at all.
And I was about 60 Acres away as it was across the field and in
between, there was a fence and it was I don't think there was
any noise, but my car was going, but it certainly wasn't noise
like you would think to Something that big in the air.
Are you any good at sketching things?
I'm not, but I am a trained Observer.
I have directed and produced television, as a matter of time.
So, I'm quite aware of visual operation.
I was wondering if you could sketch me or to give me a, give
me a, a verbal description written description.
That is and I will send it to you, but I wondered.
If anybody else has ever talked and produces many cars were
stopped. If this is possible that
somebody listening to us right now, is one of those people that
were and it was never in the paper.
It was never reported but I did go back to school.
I was teaching at that time and I did go back to school and I
said to one of the teachers I have, you know, something very
funny has happened to me and I have to share with somebody.
I've taken my children out and try to find this place and
there's no radio antenna. Now, that, you know, it just
doesn't disappear overnight and wait.
I just wanted some sort of physical evidence to something
have been there. So, I said to the teacher, I'm
going to say something to you, but I don't want you to know And
and see said they say, enter has been also.
Another teacher had experienced something similar at a
children's camp in Maine. Something had come down to the
hill while the children were on the hill.
So I think it's, I think there are a lot of people around here.
Have had experiences allowed very educated people but because
I didn't want to lose my job and say they want to lose this.
I think you raised a very, very important point there and the
movie now is making it more socially acceptable to talk
about. Out, UFOs UFOs are no longer a
dirty word. And we are now getting cases at
the center which are old 5 to 10 years.
Old at feet, people have been reluctant to report and I would
like to point out to our listeners that I feel it is
their scientific duty to report such cases, because how can we
ever solve this problem, if we don't have proper data to work
with, Okay? Thank you very much for calling
my doctor, honey. Thank you.
We're going to take a 15 minute break here and candy Learn
ranking. Skeptic you were a ranking
Skipper. I certainly was the the fact
remains that UFO reports exist. They continue to come in from
all over the world. And from many of them are come
from very responsible persons. So either you give the these are
the fact that you can't controvert.
Have I been have I been misled or misinformed in thinking that
That there have been more UFO reports in the United States
than in other foreign countries. We have a great, many of course
simply because communication is so good, but Canada, for
instance, there are more UFO sightings per capita in Canada
than there are in the United States.
What about some of the Western European countries?
Where we have reports now from? Well over 100 different
countries, but reporting and Communications are sometimes
difficult to language difficulties for one thing
governmental difficulties and others since Go to get reports
from the Iron, Curtain Iron Curtain countries, for instance.
Although we do they have the same sorts of things there that
we have here. Okay.
So it's a report doctor headache.
Like, I want to see a UFO, I've never seen one.
I've never even seen any bright lights to be absolutely honest
with you that I couldn't figure out almost instantly.
When described as natural phenomena in Good Company, our
estimates is that only one out of every 40 or so people
actually ever have a UFO experience suppose.
When the snow finally does stop in the weather clears up and
it's a clear night and I'm driving home or I'm sitting in
my backyard and I suddenly see one of these things.
What do we do? The very first thing you should
do is get Witnesses for your own protection because then you can
say, well look, he saw a 2 or she saw a to but from the
scientific standpoint, it's extremely important to have
witnesses because then when we go to investigate it, we can get
the accounts of the individuals separately.
And that's what we always do. We never get Them together and
we interrogate people independently and but you see I
am going to be very reluctant to call any police, for example, to
call officials because I would be subject to Great ridicule,
and I would like to avoid that. Well, After you get your
Witnesses, have your, you and have them separately.
Write a simple narrative account of what happened is just very
simple things and the time, the duration and then send it to the
Center for UFO studies in Evanston.
Illinois sin, is it the 6020 to and they're your, you have no
fear of ridicule whatsoever because we operate something,
like a medical clinic. Medical Clinic doesn't give a
names of its Patients Out. Things of that sort neither do
we names are not used except without, they're not used except
when we have permission to do it.
Okay? So, what you're saying is you
don't necessarily have to report this to anyone in officialdom,
that's right, okay? Send it to you and you act as a
Clearinghouse for all these things.
I tell you, how can you possibly examine you and 20 people?
All the thousands and thousands of narratives that you must get
and enquiries. Well, it isn't difficult to.
Weed out the typical cases of sightings of meteors airplanes,
advertising planes. Balloon satellites.
They fit a pattern and you can almost spot them almost
immediately to any trained. Investigator can spot those we
home in on the cases that are really and truly puzzling.
And we spent a lot of time investigating.
Those sure like to see one dr. Hynek Soju in it.
What I'm going to talk to some people, some more people who
have had Close Encounters on the telephone.
Own in just a minute. Can you hear me sir?
Hello, yes? Yes.
Good morning. How are you frying?
How are you don't? You're not at off for a minute.
Yeah, can we do for you? Well by golly.
I'd like to, first of all, the only encounter I had with a very
humorous one which wasn't an encounter.
I was driving along when I was 12 years old, with my dad coming
back from the doctor. And here was this at dusk, or
just after dusk, here was this undulating object off in the
distance, just hovering. And my Dad pulled the car off
the road, he thought this was Preposterous, you know, in fact
he was frightened as a as we stood there, sat in the car and
watch this thing. My dad was never shaken in his
life by anything except this and then the thing turned around and
there was a beer advertisement it was a blimp that led me off
though at 12 years old to follow up reports.
And as I was 17 or 18, I followed up.
Up the reports and went to UFO Society, meetings and pseudo
religious meetings in this type of thing.
Few years ago, in fact, a year ago, I ran across the fellow who
worked for the government of fellow.
I know very, very well and very credible last person in the
world that would come up with us really and he said that the when
we were orbiting Spaceman that they were buzzed by UFOs.
Is there any truth in this? Well, I've never been able to
authenticate that I have spoken to three astronauts who have had
UFO sightings Gordon Cooper, Jim mcdivitt and Deke Slayton.
Only mcdivitt had his sighting in the in space.
The other two were here on solid Manuel.
Deke Slayton was in an aircraft. If it's difficult to call those
people diluted or liars, and but as Is anything seen on the way
to the moon? No one has ever confessed that
to me at any rate. I see I was referring to in,
orbit around the Earth that have been Jim mcdivitt and there have
been other reports, but I won't believe them.
I don't accept them. Unless I've talked to the person
of personally and having one way or another authenticated it.
Okay. And in this was a happy with me.
I'm I'm a real skeptic a real agnostic.
When it comes to the backhand about 1957 or so, about the time
Sputnik went up, I was on the mailing list for one of the
societies and I thought this was great fun, and I could see
nothing based. In fact, years later, I went
through all these things before I threw them out, all these
tracks and pamphlets and alleged proof.
Do you know what year, the Van Allen belts were discovered Well
let's see. It must have been well in the
early early satellites so that must have been about 58 or 59.
Okay I remember looking at one of these pictures of the earth
that the society Society sent me and personally I thought they
were a bunch of crackpots but here was this beautiful line
drawing of Van Allen belts and that's about the only thing
credible I ever came up with that.
I would have on taper as far as that there.
Being visiting us but the rest of it made no sense whatsoever.
Gee, thank you for having us over here.
Your I think it's always important to have intelligence
Skeptics in this right thing. After all.
You were one for a great many years and you still are your
Skellig Lasik lie. I don't accept more than one
hundredth of stuff. I hate her.
Okay, the real pleasure talking to you Doctor.
Thank you. Thanks for calling.
Right by them. Hello?
Yes, I didn't realize it was my turn.
It's your turn. I would like dr.
Hynek about some A ssion. This happened on Colorado
between 1949 and 1952. I was living out there and my
father's cousin who was an Air Force officer at that.
Time was transferred to our Air Force Base in Denver, one
weekend in his family, came to visit us out Northeastern
Colorado and UFOs came up in the conversation.
And I told my Dad's cousin about a recent article, in a monthly
magazine named Dieter pageant or Coronet.
That went into great detail about the inside and the outside
of UFO and its occupants. And the UFO has been found.
As I remember our Arizona, they had crashed and my dad's cousin
worked. Absolutely stunned.
And he said that since all disappeared in a national
magazine, he felt that he could see why he had been sent to
Larry Air Force Base and he and some other officers had been run
out there to a school level, top secret and they I've been
learning everything that I had read in this magazine and I
don't recall whether it's government or the air force that
had, they are reluctant to do. So, would we need?
See this story has cropped up many, many times.
If it could be authenticated it would be a tremendously,
exciting thing, Jack Anderson or somebody should uncover it.
But I am not going to accept it unless I have definite.
Identification of it. Well unfortunately my dad said
cousin passed away a couple of years ago and he had retired
from the Air Force. I might mention, I don't know
whether it would help or not. I think it was a pageant
magazine. I'm not sure.
I do know that after the article appeared in the magazine it was
never seen on the newsstands again.
Well I that's that's a help but you really need.
If you could get an Air Force officer who went to that school.
Yes. Ma'am.
You can't important thing. Kind of have a first-hand
report. Yeah.
Okay. Thank you for calling.
You're welcome. Thank you, you swear on the
radio that dr. Hynek here on WJR Downriver and
we were driving along our little Street here.
This is about 10 years ago and we see this light from the are
shining down on us and we stopped the car by the
neighbors, was on the sidewalk and we looked up and this was an
object. It was the if that came down was
yellow, of course, like a light, like a beacon.
My husband is always said that. If, if they've taken pictures,
they've got our picture. This, he always said this, he
says, well, he must be photographic and the we watch
this it was it was about the heights of black worthy.
The third ripples will fly like the Goodyear in this sort of
thing and the blimps and so we we watched it wasn't very long
just maybe like a minute or two. It was like a yellow green
light. And it looked like lights on it,
but you I couldn't tell that part because the light was
shining down real bright and all of a sudden it flew to the west
and it just went you. It was just like, you couldn't
even snap your finger. It went that rapidly and when it
flew it left them it was like it left a cone after it like maybe
if that was the I don't know. I always figured like some of
these airplanes that are skywriting but this is this is
what we saw and I'm in the Downriver, it was about 10 years
ago. No.
No, he did. You report that to anybody.
No. Because at that time to this you
we didn't really how to even tell her family.
It was around the time when you know, the papers were debunking
it and everyone was debunking. It was so we really didn't tell
anyone this neighbor up the road, we don't really know him
at all, but, and we never did talk to him about it after that.
But, but we thought and we were, we were You know, we can never
know influence of anything but it just seemed like.
And again, this morning, my husband says, will you tell me
took her picture? And that's all that was our
impression of it. This brings up the very
important points and many people not only are reluctant to
report, but they also tell me, they don't know where to report
and the place. Certainly one of the places to
report is the center for UFO studies in Evanston.
Illinois, the ZIP code is 60 202 and the phone number there, Is
area code, 312, 44, 91, 1870. If I were to write this up, of
course, I didn't know until this morning, there was a place that
you can write and I've been listening to you since you come
on fat, girl isn't JP when he had it the other time and these,
these things sound fantastic. But from what we saw, I know
they're not. I know they're really true
because we saw this on. Why don't you write it up and
send it into the center for UFO studies to give the address once
again doctor All right, is the center for UFO studies. 924
Chicago Avenue Evanston, Illinois 6020 to or just the
center for UFO studies. Evanston illinois is probably
sufficient. The post office knows as pretty
well by now, and the zip is 6020 to do that.
Thanks for calling dr. Hynek.
I've witnessed you this morning. Take several phone calls, you
have taken reports of Of UFO, sightings from literally
thousands of people, maybe, even hundreds of thousands of
remember that many. But we do have 60,000 reports at
first of all, you must get weary of these because and secondly,
is there a great similarity is that?
They do all these various reports, no matter how strange
they might sound to do any of them have one thing in common
that from which you can draw some conclusions.
Well, there's certainly similar, let's put it this way that some
people We'll say it's all imagination.
Well, if it were all imagination, we ought to be able
to get. We ought to be getting reports
of pink elephants with roller skates or the Taj Mahal being
seen in New Orleans. Or in other words, Pure
Imagination would give us all sorts of reports.
We don't, we get a fairly definite pattern of reports and
from different cultures, from central Africa, from Papua New
Guinea from Brazil, from the Outback in Australia.
Same sorts of things are reported as From United States
and Canada. Let's say where there could have
been a relatively small chance for comparison between the
people. Yeah, the people in central
Africa don't read Time Magazine. I don't believe you never know
what about the saucer shape. The shape seems to change the 30
years ago when they were first reported, they were flying
saucers while they still. Are you still have the daylight
disks not as many today? But we seem to be getting more
and more cases of the clothes. Boundaries rather than the
distant ones either they didn't, they were afraid to report Close
Encounters earlier or they didn't weren't as many but we
keep getting reports, especially older ones.
Now, for instance, the the picture itself is bringing
things out of the woodwork, we're getting reports of
abduction, cases of very close encounter of the second and
third kinds that people will write to us.
And tell us this happened in 1965 of duction.
Kidnapping. Well, Somebody has picked up and
flown around and some sort of a spacecraft are not flown around.
No, I simply do not buy these cases of where people say, they
took a trip to Venus in a flying saucer and came back with hair
from saturnian, dog or something of that.
Sort, the place is covered with pseudo, religious nuts, and I
guess that makes our problem that much harder, but the
reports of Close Encounters. Our car coming, what are you
talking about abruption? The the typical pattern there,
the classic case, of course, is the famous case of Betty and
Barney Hill. But there are dozens and dozens
of others, the typical pattern that Duvall has developed.
Is that for a short time, the people have in their conscious
memory of the experience of memory of an excuse fo
experience. Then Amnesia sets in, they will
tell us that they didn't know what happened for, maybe an hour
or two hours, they Be found farther down the road at the end
of that time. And then there again conscious
but they're very puzzled as to what happened in that time,
lapse. How many of these encounters
have been reported about 50 so far?
Are they all similar? Yeah, they're similar in this,
they have this conscious period and then the unconscious and
what we've been doing as far as our funds permit is to employ,
regressive hypnosis, if the Since has been that traumatic,
you know, is well known. That the conscious mind will
block out a traumatic experience and we've been getting some
very, very interesting accounts from under hypnosis.
Now I haven't the least idea how reliable we can count, two
things that we get when people tell us under hypnosis, but
nonetheless for what it's worth, the stories are remarkably
similar, they will report that they were given taken aboard and
given some sort of a medical examination are generally.
Rather hazy about It but good people.
Good to sort of the earth type, people have told us this and you
sound like, you believe them. No.
I believe that they are sincere. You believe they believe what
they're telling you? Yes, I believe that.
Now whether that really look i-i've, always point out that
Saul of Tarsus and the road to Damascus, had an experience
which transformed him into st. Paul.
And that certainly affected the human race.
But was it a real experience undoubtedly Saint?
Paul thought it was a real. Experience, you know, Vandana,
caen and other writers have tried to draw parallels from
Biblical times, and before is a matter of fact to the kinds of
things that are happening now and indicating that we the space
chariots etcetera that we have been visited before.
Do you hold with that? I don't hold with it because
simply well Von daniken in the Chariots of the Gods.
I cannot respect his scholarship.
I'm and I think I've never been able to finish one of Books
because it's it just nauseating to me.
He might be right? And certainly, he stirred
people's imaginations but there's no the evidence that he
tries to bring forth is mostly supposition and ad hoc stuff.
Flimsy conclusions very flimsy conclusions.
I would say glad to see that you're still somewhat of a
skeptic that's that's healthy. You have not turned the corner,
and I've been watching you all morning long.
And you were very, very careful to never say.
Oh yes, that's I know what that is.
You either you seem to be listening as a priest in
confessional, or as a psychiatrist on the couch
without ever committing yourself?
Why is that? Well, because if I'm true to the
scientific principles, you don't say a scientist, doesn't say he
believes this or people ask me. Do you believe in UFOs?
But belief is a sort of, a theological sort of thing.
I want to scientist, says he believes something.
He means that he has enough. Evidence now to think that this
or that is soul and we're still Gathering the evidence.
Okay? Electronic.
Well, I'll tell you this, maybe the folks who are observing, us
didn't like our conversation this morning because driving
conditions have absolutely turned to Glad metaphysical
Society the, you know, so yeah. So how are you?
It's fine. I was with dr.
Allen hynek, in, 1972, it London England, if he recalls at the
festival of esoteric Sciences, where there was Get a number of
UFO, enthusiasts from England that met him there.
Do you recall dr. When I recall the meeting but I
met so many people of that time. That's right.
Well Mike affiliation with the whole story goes back from the
time of 1947 and my concern and questions were similar to j.p.
Why are you here while eventually we were able to read
an organization or a group who would meet and rap about the
possibilities of being visited? One of our members, became what
we call it. Hello through an electromagnetic
beam. Supposedly being to his brain
from a craft, and you see, now, you know, some, we start talking
like this, you lose me. Wow.
Okay. Important says that, we were
making supposedly a verbal communication through a
individual. Okay?
And our concern was why don't you win, okay?
And their indication was that if they were to land, say downtown
the city, Detroit 70% of the people would want to.
Destroy them for being invaded. Supposedly by monsters the other
30%, they indicated with leg prone and just want to worship
them as God's. So we were not prefer to ready
for this, kind of communication with extraterrestrial.
Why do people assume that's all? I've heard that before.
I don't event. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
I don't think. Do you think it makes sense?
Why do you Doctor honey? Well, I suppose the the, there's
some, if they observe the human race, they know there are.
We're a warlike group but I do You better be sufficient reason.
Wow, let's put it this way. There's 30 years of
communication. Supposedly was identifying
objects. I don't call him UFO as I call
them. Hiya phones.
They are identified. There's something in the sky and
their communication device. Is that what we're seeing our
Scout ships as opposed to the Mothership, which house these
cows. They indicate that there are
mother ships are hundreds of miles long, that the becomes
what we call a very scientific. Fiction phenomena, well I think
would be very important to get testable information from them
if they could give us some information that we can then for
instance, if they had told us what exactly what we'd find on
Mars before Viking got there, that would have been beautiful
testable information that we've, this is the sort of stuff we
need. So if you are communicating with
him, please ask him to give us something that we don't know
about yet. Our, let me give you something.
Just let me give you something that they wanted to know.
Okay, sure they want us to know that we're not A crises that
were playing with toys supposedly that some crazy can
push a button. The maleate are apply.
We, we knew that already, all right?
They know it. And they know that we know that
in their hair and their concern about us doing the thing that
they're proper. They don't wish to play games
with us. They don't have to prove their
existence. They want us to prove our own
existence. Science is always looking for
some belief in. You have to do something doctor
when you were on the, the movie was Sensational, result.
Question about it away. Taken a great deal of
understanding and awareness with everyone have seen it, as there
has to be an effect. The story shows that there had
been some crap that was returned to the to the Earth or came back
into our Dimension. And then off of the great big
ship came. These two Americans who have now
returned, is that a science fiction stories in an account?
That is supposedly the neck. Part was pure science fiction.
Okay? So, thank you very much for
calling. I'll see you soon.
Take care. All right.
Okay, we're going to go to the weather as you've been hanging
on for a long time, but I really don't care.
Go on here, but I do want to report this Bank.
Well, we're on the air right now then if you don't care to go on,
I will take you off. Yes, hello.
Yeah, I am going to go and ask him for money.
Okay, why our kind of my brother has a they're on their back
yard, I have nobody believed her because of our ages.
This is about 10 years ago. I think we might have had Close
Encounters. Second.
I don't know. We saw white.
We won't die. Look.
Outside of the star and it seemed to come from authorizing
to Zenith really quickly a matter of 10 seconds or so.
Wasn't a satellite wasn't meteor.
Didn't have any Trail. Got right above us.
Exactly above us and we were watching it in an hour there for
about a second and checking this top really suddenly just stop
and then it started move on again.
It's if didn't have any acceleration at all or anything,
you just want to stop the start with nothing in between and went
disappeared below the Horizon. Meanwhile there with a second
outward at then and then appear to be descending and it got But
not too much and then it seemed to get along in this into three
small dots and was assembling really rapidly.
We don't recover. We and right between word means,
we've been standing three things.
I might have been a meteor, hit the ground, and we went out
there the next day and there were three small spots on the
ground in the backyard. Can see the grass.
It was it was feared woke up and it was a person, acquires a
little triangle is About the routines that was about the size
of a half dollar and three years.
After that, nothing ever grew in those spots.
And that's a typical story. They the effect that nothing
grows, but did you actually see these things fall?
Yeah, it's over between us, we had a very good fewer scared out
of our wits news. That's a that's quite
interesting. Did you report that Tony what he
always important for parents Mesa?
Could have bet you're Dreamin And ain't nobody believed it
when it's a little old for that report, but the, what is the
situation those spots now? Are they still there?
We should go back and take a look and let me know, all right.
Matter of fact, why don't you chronicled your report after you
go back and look and write it and write a letter and send it
to a dr. Hynek at the center for UFO
studies and give you to ask whether it's a Well, sufficient
to say Evanston, Illinois 6020 to okay.
Okay. Thank you.
Okay. Thank you for calling dr.
Hynek is going to be lecturing at Eastern Michigan University,
this afternoon noon at noontime close encounter these things.
Teach you anything, you learn anything.
Every bit of information helps us.
Suppose we need to get this information because otherwise
what do we have to have data to work with?
Okay all right. Go ahead you're on the air yes I
had a close encounter. When I was in my early teens
around, 1956 57 near Lake, Mary Ann Arbor and we were visiting
friends and Gone outside. We've been inside and we went
outside and we saw this.in, the Skylight discussed, you know,
one night it was moving very fast and it was coming from the
southwest headed toward the Northeast.
And the man that we were visiting was a doctor who had
been a doctor in the Navy and he had a pair of, really excellent
binocular. So he went in and got them.
We look through the binoculars and we saw a saucer with a dome,
with a slight Haze on it, moving very fast in, in the dresser.
That I just mentioned and after we thought everybody sat there
absolutely in shock, he went in and called the sheriff's
department for more snow County and they had had swamped with
calls that easy about an unidentified flying object.
So that was good. We asked you, not to use the
word swamp, I have to correct you on one point, that would not
classify it as a close encounter close encounter has to be within
say, five hundred feet, right? Right.
In the light of an unidentified flying object, something that we
could identify, that's an interesting case.
But it's a little far off but enjoyment.
I think that was the man at the service department mentioned
that that most people had seen it through binoculars.
So, but it was interesting. Anyway, thank you, bye-bye.
How come the the we seem to be getting so many reports this
morning of, sightings in the Ann Arbor area?
Why would that be We're in then Arbor area, really.
And the Ann Arbor area is a very, very tiny of portion of
this metropolitan area. Well, that's that's a point.
I don't know the answer that. Okay.
Can I take you out of the role of a scientist for just a
moment? Okay, let me put you into the
role of a man who has been observing studying UFOs for
great number of years now and ask you to make a couple of
logical. Extrapolations from all this
information and project. What you think all of this might
mean Well, first of all, when one gets rid of all the static,
the noise, the crud separates as best he can.
The wheat from the chaff, there's very little week left.
I mean, there's the the number of really solid cases are
certainly the minority, but they are there those, if you want
them to extrapolate, those do represent.
If you're to believe them at all represent some form of
intelligence. But where this intelligence is
from, whether it is, Some great distances away.
Whether it is much closer or whether as some psychologists,
believe it may be some product of our own intelligence, some
psychic projection from a youngster, from the collective
unconscious. That's hard to see because the,
some of the best reports involved, physical traces burns
on the ground and radar observations and things of that
sort tough for imagination to do that.
Yeah, we tough imagination to do that and it will need be nice to
theorize and speculate. But I can't stop being a
scientist. I simply will not extrapolate to
the point and say that I think it is this or that any more than
if I were a doctor of PR the medical doctor, I would say the
have a cure for cancer and absolute positive cure for
cancer. I mean, I don't and I don't have
an answer to the UFO problem either.
It does seem to you, however, if I read you correctly, that the
vet it is directed by some sort of intelligence, apparently.
You know, whether that that seems to be the case and the
difficulty is that the subject has not been treated
professionally over the last 30 years, it's we've had a carnival
of buffoonery in the thing and for good reason because the
great majority of the reports are nonsense, the cases that are
really interesting are so bizarre that it's much easier to
try to sweep them under the carpet and then we are troubled
by the cooks, and the crackpots in the dealings, who insist on.
Muddying up the waters, tremendously with their utterly,
fantastic and stupid. I would say theories.
Now that appeals to them, obviously, you know, I'd like to
just crawl underneath your skin and know what you really feel.
You're very, very careful about how you put things in what you
say, you should be. I guess you have to remain
detached and as objective as you can be.
If I lose my scientific credibility, I'm I'm gone.
And I, there's enough nuts in this world.
Thought I don't want to join That group as an astronomer and
understanding how large this universe is it does it make
sense to you that somewhere that there must be by the, by the law
of probability figuring the incredible number of planets.
There are, there must be some other intelligent beings
somewhere. The be the question.
You see the astronomer, let me give you a little model, suppose
we made a model of everything that the astronomer can today
see through telescopes. Rose.
We made that model. Now, as large as the United
States, the net, we put our some place in Kansas, and we, let's
New York. Be as far as ours.
We can see in One Direction in San Francisco.
As far as ours, we can see in the other than on that scale in
this model, the Earth would not be visible.
Even in the world's most powerful electron microscope.
Now, it is preposterous to think that there's some sub
microscopic Speck in. Kansas is the only thing on this
model that represents life between New York and San
Francisco to make odor. Make us absolute Cosmic.
Freaks, your colleagues agree with you completely that
absolutely. You are convinced their arm then
there are many intelligent of planets.
Maybe entire systems are tremendous, we can't prove it
but I that's their it I think it is would be terribly egotistical
to think that we are. The highest intelligence is in
this entire universe. But see the problem is not and I
think we can close on this. This statement that the question
is not Are UFOs visitors from outer space but the question is,
what are you? Those two different questions,
dr. Heilig, thank you very much for
being with us this morning, fascinating these past three
hours went by, like lightning, I remind you again that you can
write for the international UFO reporter.
The magazine monthly review, put out on UFO information by dr.
Hynek and his colleagues in the center for UFO studies, to
Simply by writing to UFO reporter, Evanston, Illinois.
And the zip code is 6020 to Tasha dollar coffee.
Well, dollars a year right subscription.
Thank you again for being with us.
Thank you. Utterly fascinating.
Thanks again for listening to unnerved.
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a good rest of your week and we'll see you then.
Thanks again for listening to unnerved.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your
friends and leave a review wherever you get your podcast.
And if you guys want to see photos related to each episode,
be sure to follow us on our Instagram at unnerved podcast.
Next week. We'll have a regular Story
episode and I'm excited for you guys to hear it until then have
a good rest of your week and we'll see you then.