1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,520 Well, hello ladies and gents. Roberts Sikes Keto savage.com. 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,880 Today I've got special guest Catina Sawyer, who holds a PhD 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,840 in industrial organizational psychology and we dive deep into 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,640 workplace culture, vibe, atmosphere. 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:15,880 I just building a better workplace culture. 6 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,360 So very, very different topic than my normal podcast gets. 7 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,880 But I got to thinking when I was pitched having on the show, it's 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,760 like, OK, I've got a team of several people. 9 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,000 Culture and vibe in my workplace is of paramount importance. 10 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,040 There's things that I've learned over the years, things that I 11 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,119 would do differently, things that I would, you know, have 12 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:34,720 changed going forward. And it's like, well, we all have 13 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,520 that to some extent. We all work somewhere, We all 14 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,840 interact with people. So it seemed a fitting 15 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 conversation to have. So I brought on the show we into 16 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,640 all kinds of good things. I've got no doubt that you will 17 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,120 take something from this as it pertains to just improving your 18 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,120 overall, you know, work life culture, vibe and sense of 19 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:51,600 fulfillment while at your workplace. 20 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,960 So very enjoyable conversation. I love what she's doing. 21 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:55,720 I love what she's the message she's putting out. 22 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,040 Without further delay, sit back, relax, enjoy the podcast with 23 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:11,200 Cortana. We are live, Cortina, how are 24 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,240 you? I'm doing great. 25 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:14,480 How are you? I'm good. 26 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,600 I'm excited to be chatting with you today, so. 27 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,480 Yeah, I'm excited too. Yeah, we, we've, I've had a 28 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,880 broad array of guests on the podcast, oftentimes in the 29 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,480 nutrition, health, performance space in some form or fashion. 30 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,680 I haven't really had any workspace Wellness professionals 31 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,040 on those, so this would be interesting, but it's totally 32 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:34,720 applicable. Like you think about health, 33 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,840 fitness, nutrition, we all spend the majority of our time in our 34 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,920 career path. So having a healthy place of 35 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:42,840 environment to work there is paramount. 36 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,680 Yes. I mean, we spend so much of our 37 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,160 lives, if you don't like what you do, a depressing amount of 38 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,320 your life, if you like what you do, maybe that's not so sad. 39 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,720 But we spend a huge part of our lives at work. 40 00:01:55,720 --> 00:02:01,000 And so it's a huge predictor of our overall health outcomes, the 41 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,080 extent to which we feel healthy and well in the workplace. 42 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,960 Yeah, 100%. What what gets you interested in 43 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,759 that as I mean that that's what you built your business, your 44 00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:12,080 identity, your career around. So what? 45 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,920 What compelled you to dive deeper into the functionings, 46 00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:18,640 the inner workings of a workplace environment to begin 47 00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:19,960 with? Yeah. 48 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,400 So I'm an industrial organizational psychologist and 49 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,440 so is my business partner, Patricia Gabaric. 50 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,320 And we both met in Graduate School in our PhD program in 51 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,120 industrial Organizational Psychology. 52 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:36,520 And industrial organizational psychology is sort of a little 53 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,240 bit what it sounds like, although it's a bit of a 54 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,840 mouthful. The industrial side is really 55 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,880 understanding from a systems perspective how to properly 56 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,920 structure the workplace so that you're selecting people who have 57 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:50,360 the right talents and skills for the job and that you're 58 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,680 appraising their performance in a way that's going to motivate 59 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,120 them to grow and get better, and that they're able to acquire new 60 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,160 skills and learn in the best way possible. 61 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,520 And the organizational side is really about more of what people 62 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,800 might consider the fluffy stuff, but it's actually super 63 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,440 important. Leadership, emotion management 64 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,800 at work, stress management at work, all of those sorts of 65 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,120 things that happen more on the interpersonal level, workplace 66 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,360 culture, team culture. And so both of us kind of came 67 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,160 to that area by way of psychology. 68 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,720 We both did our undergraduate degrees in psychology, and we 69 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,840 were both looking for an angle on psychology that could help us 70 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,720 make an impact on the lives of the average person who's trying 71 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,200 to get by and provide for their family and have a nice life, but 72 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,240 who also wants to make an impact, a meaningful impact on 73 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:41,840 the world through the work that they do. 74 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,760 We found that the most compelling area of psychology. 75 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,120 So that's what we decided to dive in and study. 76 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,120 And we met there in Graduate School and decided to start our 77 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,160 company worker being after that, really with the goal of getting 78 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,080 the science of workplace Wellness that we learned in 79 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,000 Graduate School out into the world in a less boring format 80 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,720 than the way we learned it in school. 81 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,560 Yeah, 'cause normally when people hear this, it's like they 82 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,440 think of like when you hire on a new facility, they've got like 83 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:12,040 this onboarding video series that is as bad as entertaining 84 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,080 as watching paint dry. So like the fact that you can 85 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,440 take that and make it interesting is, is a feat in and 86 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:18,800 of itself because it's super important. 87 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,400 Obviously you'll start a business because there is a 88 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:27,720 demand or a need for that. When you look at it now, are you 89 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:33,040 optimistic or pessimistic about just the the societal culture in 90 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,120 the workplace in general? Like is it on a a good trend or 91 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,840 is it going down the wrong path? Yeah, that's a great question. 92 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,440 You know, interestingly, industrial organizational 93 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,080 psychology for anyone out there listening who might be 94 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,320 interested in the field is a consistently growing and 95 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,120 continues to have one of the brightest outlooks of any career 96 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,760 path out of all the possible career paths that you could 97 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,000 take, which that wasn't the case when we got into it. 98 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,760 We were just interested, but now more and more this is becoming a 99 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,400 more popular path. And the reason is because people 100 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,800 are realizing the value of health and Wellness. 101 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,120 And I'm very encouraged by that, that workplaces are starting to 102 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,680 recognize that if their employees are burnt out and 103 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:18,720 exhausted, their work is. However, I think that there's 104 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,000 still a big need to understand, well, what do we do to address 105 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,760 that issue? So I'm very encouraged by the 106 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,160 fact that people recognize that this is an issue. 107 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,240 But one of the things that was sort of frustrating us and why 108 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,840 we wanted to put our thought leadership out there was because 109 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,560 people don't always know how, right? 110 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,520 And organizations are earmarking large budgets for workplace 111 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,600 Wellness. It's a huge industry. 112 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,360 Wellness is in the trillions. Workplace Wellness is in the 113 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,360 billions, right? Many, many billions. 114 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,840 And so there's a lot of money being spent on this stuff, but 115 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:54,720 it's not always being spent on things that are going to have an 116 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,560 impact. And so I'm encouraged by the 117 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,200 focus, but a little discouraged or frustrated by the lack of, 118 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:06,040 of, you know, kind of knowledge of how to deploy these resources 119 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:07,640 to get the most bang for your buck. 120 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,600 And that's sort of where we come in to say, okay, take a pause. 121 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,600 You've got this money, you've got stuff you want to do, but 122 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,760 let's do it in a strategic way. So it's going to have the 123 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,240 biggest impact possible. Gotcha, Gotcha. 124 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,520 When, where and how did it become evidence that there 125 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:28,000 needed to be funds allocated for developing research around this 126 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,200 genre and putting, you know, practices in the plate to 127 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:32,880 actually improve things? Like, was there a line in the 128 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,240 sand that was drawn that was like, OK, we have a problem here 129 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,880 and we need to find a solution? Like, was there a point in time 130 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,440 in which that became a priority? Yeah, honestly, I think there's 131 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:48,600 been an increasing recognition just in popular as people and 132 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:53,880 employees got the mic more so to say through social media and 133 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,000 platforms like Glassdoor for example, there's been an 134 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,600 increasing recognition that your employees feelings throughout 135 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,600 the course of their work day and how they feel in the workplace 136 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,320 about their leaders and the culture, etcetera matter for 137 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,600 attracting and retaining really great talent. 138 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,840 So I think that sentiment was already on the upswing that 139 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:14,280 people were starting to recognize. 140 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,600 Yeah, you know, our employees are saying that it sucks to work 141 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,760 here and other people are seeing that and that's probably not a 142 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,040 good thing, so we should fix that. 143 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:27,160 However, I do think that the pandemic really accelerated a 144 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,000 lot of those concerns because as people were working from home, 145 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,680 trying to figure out how to make things work in their households 146 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,280 when they've got multiple kids schooling at the same time that 147 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,600 they're working and, you know, everybody's dealing with 148 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:46,120 unprecedented circumstances. People started to be not OK in a 149 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,680 way that they were not necessarily comfortable sharing 150 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,440 at work before or hadn't experienced at work before. 151 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,040 And a lot of the cracks started to show. 152 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,800 People became more vulnerable and more authentic with what 153 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,120 they were going through. Even senior, most leaders 154 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,400 started doing that. And I think as people started 155 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,240 noticing the humanity and other people that, yes, we are 156 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,040 working, but we have all these things going on in the 157 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,920 background of our lives that we're also thinking about that 158 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,040 are also important to us. And we're having, this is taking 159 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:17,840 a toll, right? And we need to do something 160 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,880 about it instead of ignoring it. I think that was a real turning 161 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,760 point for people recognizing this isn't just something nice 162 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,800 to do. This is something we really need 163 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,680 to do if we want our employees to sustainably be able to 164 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,720 perform at high levels. Yeah, I mean, for me, like I've 165 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,880 got a team of, I guess there's eight of us on site and then 166 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,000 I've got several agencies and whatnot scattered about the the 167 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,799 world. But it's, it's interesting 168 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:42,360 because like as a business owner, as an entrepreneur and 169 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:45,080 you know, having a great team is like the make or break factor. 170 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,000 Like I've had periods where we've had very poor employee 171 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,360 performance and just vibe and culture in general. 172 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,080 So like this, this is a topic that a lot of people may ruffle 173 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:55,720 their feathers in and think is all fru fru. 174 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,160 But like boots on the ground level, having a functioning team 175 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,360 is of paramount importance as a as a member of the team, as the 176 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,880 leader of that team, just if you're involved in any form or 177 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,320 fashion. So it's super, super important 178 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,800 stuff when it comes to where companies have just totally gone 179 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,600 off the deep end and been LED astray or just gone about the 180 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,160 wrong way entirely. What are you typically seeing as 181 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,080 like a common denominator there? Yeah, great. 182 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,840 And great point too about the entrepreneurship piece. 183 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,760 I come from a family of entrepreneurs and particularly 184 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,880 when you're at the helm of something that you've started 185 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,400 and you have so much invested and you want it to be 186 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,680 successful, but also you're pulled in so many different 187 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:36,680 directions. It can be really challenging to 188 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:39,360 take dedicated time to think about the culture or the example 189 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,960 that you're setting. And it it also, you know, takes 190 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,960 a lot to find the right people because you're often operating 191 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,200 with a smaller team and each person has a bigger ripple 192 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,080 effect right then they might in a larger company. 193 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,880 So I totally resonate with that and the challenges that come 194 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,480 along with that. I think when we see companies 195 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,880 getting this wrong, they're investing their time in things 196 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,120 that don't change the day-to-day experiences that the employees 197 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,400 have on the team and the way that work gets done and the 198 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,120 culture. And of course, if a company has 199 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,560 lots of resources and they can spend money on Wellness 200 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:25,120 programming things like, you know, offering yoga at lunch or 201 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,080 a mindfulness meditation session or a work life balance panel, 202 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,120 those are all interesting things to offer and they do have some 203 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:33,920 positive results. Like, don't get me wrong, I 204 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:35,600 would never say don't offer those things. 205 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,800 They have positive results. However, if your day-to-day work 206 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,480 culture is bad and you're dreading getting on calls with 207 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,600 your boss because the person that you're going to have a 208 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,040 conversation with does not treat you well or just treat you in a 209 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,080 neutral manner, you don't feel like you really matter. 210 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,480 Your team's not functioning in an appropriate way, or you don't 211 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,240 have good interpersonal relationships. 212 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,680 Basically, you're creating a recipe where what you've put 213 00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:06,080 into the cake is really bad and now you're trying to slap some 214 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,040 icing on it to make it better, right? 215 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,120 And sometimes you just need to re bake the cake like the 216 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,600 middle, the center of what we're doing is not working. 217 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,240 And instead of spending money on these add on things to try to 218 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,800 combat the culture that we're creating and reinforcing day in 219 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,760 and day out, you need to switch things from the inside out. 220 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,600 So when companies are getting this wrong or the companies we 221 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,240 see having the largest problems with this are companies that 222 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,600 have a bad culture, people are feeling overworked and burnout. 223 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,360 They don't want to be there and they're spending all this money 224 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,440 on that icing, right? Like, well, it looks pretty on 225 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,760 the outside, but when you get inside, it's a hot mess, right? 226 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,000 So I think that's the that's the place we see companies making 227 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,960 the biggest mistake. They're in well intended 228 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,680 potentially, and they're offering things that look like 229 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:51,080 they're trying to do a good job, but they're not actually getting 230 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,720 to the heart of the problem. Yeah, no, I totally agree. 231 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,080 It's interesting because you know, when you're looking at 232 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,160 different companies structure, you look at the size of the 233 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,640 company, you know their budget they have allocated for 234 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,480 something like this. And it's like they how a person, 235 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,400 you know, how a four person team operates is going to be vastly 236 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,400 different than a big massive corporation. 237 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,560 But often times a solution would be the same thing. 238 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:15,320 Like it all kind of stems back to just good communication 239 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,960 skills and being able to be completely transparent. 240 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,400 That's what I've, I've found because I've worked, you know, 241 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,400 in corporate life where I was, you know, a number amongst to 242 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,720 see if other numbers versus, you know, running my team now and 243 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,720 it's like regardless of the size, like it's all coming from 244 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,240 being able to communicate effectively. 245 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,080 That's 100% true. And I also think we get asked 246 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,200 that question a lot, you know. Oh, and all your research on 247 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,040 this topic, well, does this only work in a big organization? 248 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:43,520 Does it only work in a small organization? 249 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,720 Well, when you're talking about leadership and you're talking 250 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,960 about culture, you're talking about setting a tone. 251 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:51,720 It really works across the board. 252 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,400 You may have to have, you may face more challenges in a large 253 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,680 organization, getting consistency in the tone across 254 00:12:57,680 --> 00:12:59,200 all of the leaders that you have, right? 255 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,840 But the idea or the sentiment of what you need to create is the 256 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,080 same. Yeah, what what are some of the 257 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,120 common strategies companies implements like the icing, so to 258 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,640 see, so to speak, that's just, you know, not really effective 259 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:14,080 at all. Like throwing a ping pong table 260 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,680 in the in the lounge and probably is not going to be the 261 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:19,240 the make a break factor. Exactly. 262 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,440 Yeah, I think that, you know, when we ask employees about the 263 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,440 way that they want their Wellness supported, because I 264 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,800 also think a big issue is that, you know, workplace Wellness, 265 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,720 it's an industry, It's a buzzword. 266 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,960 People say it, right. I want my Wellness supported at 267 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,200 work. It's pretty unclear from a 268 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,600 scientific perspective, and it's also pretty unclear from just a 269 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,160 colloquial, popular perspective, right, what people mean. 270 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,280 And different people can have different definitions of that. 271 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,760 And So what we found in our research was that people, people 272 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,760 sort of want 4 main things and that's physical health support. 273 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,240 And that spans a broad range of things. 274 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,880 That's, you know, I would like to have time in the middle of 275 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,720 the day to go take a walk if I feel like my eyes are tired of 276 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,440 staring at Zoom and I need to get up and take a little break 277 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:12,160 to, you know, hey, I got diagnosed with cancer and I 278 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,160 really need my team to help figure out how the work's going 279 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,080 to get distributed differently during this time period where 280 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,040 I'm getting treatment because otherwise I'm not going to be 281 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,520 able to, you know, make, make this work. 282 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,200 Mental health, getting support for diagnosable things, you 283 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,440 know, anxiety, depression, being able to be open and transparent 284 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,120 about that, have those that dialogues and conversations and 285 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,360 be able to address those issues in the workplace. 286 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:41,800 Emotional health, people talking about stress management, wanting 287 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,200 to be able to express emotions within professional bounds 288 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:47,800 freely. If you're upset about something 289 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,240 or worried about something, being able to have those 290 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,600 dialogues and conversations as well as being able to share, you 291 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,960 know, more positive emotions and connect with people in 292 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,240 meaningful ways. And the last is to have a 293 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,560 semblance of work life balance. And I think a lot of 294 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,120 organizations, this is an area where there's quite a bit of 295 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,080 research in the field on what is work life balance. 296 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,840 And the one thing it's not is an equal amount of work and life. 297 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,800 That's sort of a myth that I think because it's an easy, you 298 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,960 know, it lends itself nicely this idea of a balance that 299 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,120 should be equal amounts. It's really about what makes you 300 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,040 feel in balance. What is that formula for you? 301 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,200 And so when organizations focus on those four areas, I think 302 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,920 that they often think of, and this makes sense, right? 303 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,920 Programs, so step challenges or they think about, you know, oh, 304 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,600 we're going to have somebody come do a session and talk about 305 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,280 stress management or we're going to have somebody come do a 306 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,800 session and talk about a panel on work life balance or whatever 307 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,920 the case may be, right. Again, those things aren't bad, 308 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,600 but what really matters is understanding who the people are 309 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,800 on your team and what helps them to strike that balance. 310 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,520 Because for some people, they were like, yeah, like the mental 311 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,920 health part's not so big for me, but the physical health part is 312 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,480 what really, like, gets me kicked into gear. 313 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:08,920 That's what I really need time for. 314 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,200 Or the balance piece is huge for me. 315 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,240 I'm not as focused on the emotional health piece. 316 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,920 Like, I'm not a very emotional person, so that doesn't matter 317 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,160 as much to me. So it's really less about these 318 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,920 blanket solutions and offerings that people can in their free 319 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,280 time and more about changing the fabric of how things work. 320 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,440 And that requires knowing your people a little bit to 321 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,800 understand well what do they actually need. 322 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,240 Yeah, no, I agree. I think a lot of it too is just 323 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,360 the type of work that one's doing because I don't feel like 324 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,680 people are, I mean, some people are certainly, you know, the 325 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,880 hesitant to to get their hands dirty in work. 326 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,440 But I mean, like, I look at my team over the years and the 327 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,760 people that are happy work really hard, They work, you 328 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,680 know, they work very dedicated. I mean, they, they put their 329 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,240 nose to grounds and they and they put in, they put in the 330 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,200 hustle. But like they see how how the 331 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,280 work that they do is positively benefiting something bigger than 332 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:03,880 themselves. And I think when you're working 333 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,160 in an environment in which that those dots are not as easily 334 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,119 connected, they just it, it removes them from the work that 335 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:12,839 they're actually doing. And that just creates, I mean, 336 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:16,079 you feel so much more monotonous in your day-to-day if you don't 337 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:18,599 see the bigger picture. Yeah, absolutely. 338 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:22,000 There's some classic motivational theory that's been 339 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,000 around. It's funny. 340 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,760 There are certain research studies and projects that just 341 00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:31,600 they got something right about human behavior and they just 342 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,600 persist overtime. It's like, Yep, they came up 343 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,800 with that in the 70s and it's still true today because people 344 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,200 are people across the board. And one of the things that is 345 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,840 super motivating for people on the job is to understand how 346 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,880 they fit into the whole. I remember I had a job a while 347 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,320 back before I went into being a professor. 348 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:58,040 I was working consulting and I was a data stats numbers 349 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,880 cruncher person, which anybody who knows my personality, that's 350 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,360 not necessarily the best place to put me from a motivate. 351 00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:06,280 I can do it, but that's not really my personality. 352 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,520 But the thing that really like got me about the job was I would 353 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,040 get all this data from a client and I would sit by myself and do 354 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,240 all this data analysis and produce the slides that would 355 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,440 help them to understand the trends that they were seeing and 356 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,080 how we could help them solve for those trends. 357 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,240 And then someone else would present it to the client and I 358 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,840 would like never hear how it went or never know what had 359 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,400 happened. And it was just I was this black 360 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:33,400 box that like data was floating between and it was really not 361 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,560 fun because I didn't understand the impact that my job was 362 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,360 having or how people were responding to what I was doing. 363 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:43,360 So to your .1 of these base motivational theories talks 364 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,040 about the importance of seeing that whole picture. 365 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,400 And that's something that has stood the test of time for like, 366 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:49,920 decades. Yeah. 367 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,040 And for that reason, I think it's, it's almost easier when 368 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,760 you have a small company because that rippled effect that you 369 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,960 mentioned earlier is so easily felt with everything like I've 370 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,040 got, you know, like case in point, I got my, my team right 371 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:03,760 now we're waiting on ingredients to come in. 372 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,600 So we're kind of in a low production wise. 373 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,320 So I've got them doing all kinds of random jobs around the 374 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,960 warehouse space here. But they see, they see the 375 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,040 benefit to everything they're doing. 376 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,480 Like every little small piece is felt. 377 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,760 And the same is true like in the negative side, like if someone's 378 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,800 got an issue that's that doesn't go unknown, like it's felt 379 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,760 amongst the whole team. But when you get to like a 380 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,040 massive conglomerate like that, I would imagine would become 381 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,960 much harder to hedge with because it's easier to kind of 382 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,200 be pushed into a corner and have this, you know, less or more 383 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,040 abstract position, so to speak. Yeah, Yeah, I think you're 384 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,880 right. And seeing how you're having an 385 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,280 impact is harder when the pie is so big, right? 386 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,360 And you feel like you're just like 1 little blueberry and a 387 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:51,760 giant pie, right. But I would say that one of the 388 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,400 things that we found in our research that is helpful, just 389 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,360 taking it down to 1 of this more micro level, right? 390 00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:01,480 OK, well how can we make? How can we break a large 391 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,840 organization down into small parts that have their own 392 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,040 subcultures that each have consistency in supporting 393 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,320 Wellness? A huge thing in this area is 394 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,240 gratitude, showing gratitude for your team, remembering to say 395 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,320 thank you, remembering to say why you're grateful for what 396 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:17,680 they did. It's not just like, oh, thanks, 397 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,240 but you know that the impact that you had, I'm so grateful 398 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,320 for the fact that you did this because the outcome associated 399 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,000 with that was this, right? This helped us to better do 400 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,240 that. So really tying that gratitude 401 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,640 to those outcomes. We have a tip in the book which 402 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,800 we got from and this guy I love and learned so much from. 403 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,600 But he would put, and this is, you know, you can do this with a 404 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:43,840 lot of different sorts of things. 405 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,160 You don't have to have pants with pockets. 406 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,600 But the way he did it was he put 3/4 in one side of his pants 407 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,320 pocket in the morning. And his idea was that every time 408 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,360 he thanked someone, he would move one of the quarters to the 409 00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:58,000 other pocket. And by the end of the day, all 410 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,840 the quarters had to be on the other side of his pants in order 411 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,040 for him to have had a day where he shared enough gratitude. 412 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,880 And you can do that with post it notes on a laptop or whatever 413 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,360 you want to use. But the idea was that, you know, 414 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,200 if he wasn't telling someone how grateful he was for what they 415 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,520 did and why three times a day, that wasn't enough. 416 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,560 Over time, he didn't need the quarters anymore. 417 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,680 He just started doing it. You know, he was just doing it. 418 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,200 And then other people started doing it too, which was really 419 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,840 cool. So gratitude is very contagious. 420 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,600 When you show gratitude to someone, the research shows that 421 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,200 you're much more likely to pay that gratitude forward and thank 422 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,840 the next person for what they've done. 423 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,240 So you can actually create these team environments where people 424 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,880 start to see their value because they're hearing it from you. 425 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,040 You know, they're hearing that they're valued, and that goes a 426 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,800 long way. Yeah, no, 100% when it comes to 427 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,800 leadership, we kind of, you know, alluded to that a little 428 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,840 bit, but the communication and and showing the gratitude. 429 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,880 But what are some other make or break factors that are that 430 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,360 you're seeing on a regular basis when it comes to the upper level 431 00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:57,880 management, the leadership and just the, the, the, the guy 432 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,000 running the helm, so to speak? Yeah. 433 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,200 So we identified 4 key factors that the leaders who we heard 434 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,280 about South in our research, we really wanted to delve deeply 435 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,080 into the bright spots of organizations where leaders were 436 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,800 doing this really well. So we found a group of about 50 437 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,640 people who self nominated to say I had a leader who was so 438 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,640 awesome and supporting my Wellness. 439 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,240 I want to talk to you about that person for 60 to 90 minutes and 440 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,600 tell you all the stuff that they did that was so great. 441 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,920 Great. And then we took that framework 442 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,400 and we tested it out in a sample of several hundred people to 443 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,280 make sure that it replicated and that our results held weight 444 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,600 across a broader number of industries and company sizes 445 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,280 etcetera. And so we found four key areas 446 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,800 that leaders excelled in who were very good at this. 447 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,520 And the first we call not being a superhero. 448 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,520 These leaders were very good about recognizing and 449 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,280 understanding their own shortcomings and communicating 450 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,400 those shortcomings. They didn't feel like they had 451 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:02,640 to have the answers all the time. 452 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,560 And they in fact saw their team as great extensions that would 453 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,040 help them to achieve their goals. 454 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,800 As opposed to seeing themselves as like this all knowing person 455 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,800 who had all the answers and was just there with their team to 456 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,600 sort of delegate right. And like you're executing on my 457 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:18,960 vision. I know what everybody needs to 458 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,200 be doing. And so here's what you need to 459 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,600 do XYZ. And sort of their, their voice 460 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,480 is not heard. So they showed a lot of 461 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,680 authenticity and vulnerability. They were willing to share 462 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,480 things that they struggle with. So you know, this is not my 463 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,920 strength, but I know it's your strength on the team. 464 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,320 And even though I'm the leader and you're somebody who works 465 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,040 here, that's why you work here, because we complement each 466 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,480 other's strengths. If I was able to do all these 467 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,640 things, I wouldn't need anybody else on my team, right? 468 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,960 So they're really willing to share things that they might 469 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,760 have as weaknesses and help the team members to see how they're 470 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,040 complementary to those that they could work together to solve 471 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,200 problems. And they're also willing to 472 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,920 share when they're struggling with things outside of work and 473 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,760 show that they're real people when other people on the team 474 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,920 see that a leader is willing to say, you know, I'm actually 475 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,120 going through a hard time right now, you know, maybe someone 476 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:14,520 passed away or they're having a health issue. 477 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,240 Whatever the case may be, it lets people see that being a 478 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,120 leader doesn't mean being a perfect person with no flaws. 479 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,080 And they're much more likely to see achieving leadership and 480 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,360 taking on leadership as something realistic for them. 481 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,160 Otherwise they look at the leader and say, well, you know, 482 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,280 I don't know that I can be that because it doesn't seem like 483 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,400 this person. It seems like this person's a 484 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,960 robot and not a human being. And I'm a human being and I just 485 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,360 don't know how I'm ever going to get there. 486 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:45,080 So these laws and vulnerability and authenticity sharing really 487 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:48,400 help the leader to be seen as a real person who then they're 488 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,680 they're what they're doing is more achievable and realistic 489 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:52,800 for the people working with them. 490 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:54,560 Yeah, no, that makes total sense. 491 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,000 What about the the pitfalls? What are the common 492 00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:59,120 denominators? People that are just not doing 493 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:01,760 it right that cause the the wreak havoc within an 494 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,480 organization? Yeah. 495 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,040 So when people are not doing these, this particular set of 496 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,840 behaviors, this first set of behaviors the right way, we we 497 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,320 call the leaders who are doing a great job at this generators and 498 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,720 people who tend to do the opposite extinguishers in the 499 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,440 book. So we use those two terms. 500 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:28,240 So the extinguisher leaders are very much faking it that they 501 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,280 have all the answers. They're not interested in 502 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:35,320 hearing from other people. They view their own way as the 503 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:40,320 only way to do things, and they're very disinclined to 504 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,440 share that they have any weaknesses. 505 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:47,880 They're also tend to be not very humble, so unwilling to, you 506 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,160 know, say that they might have something to learn or that they 507 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,760 could grow their own skills from someone in their team. 508 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,760 Much more hierarchical, you know, a very traditional view of 509 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,200 leadership. I'm the leader. 510 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:00,840 I have the answers. You're the worker. 511 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,640 You take direction from me much more top down kind of command 512 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,840 and control as opposed to this more collaborative environment 513 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,040 where hey, I'm doing the best I can and I'm going to put my best 514 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,560 foot forward. I'm not perfect. 515 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,360 I've brought this team together to help all of us work together 516 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:19,080 in the best way possible. And that means that there are 517 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,320 some things that you're going to do really well that I don't do 518 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,120 really well. And that's actually awesome 519 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:26,480 because if we were all the same, if if you had nothing that 520 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,600 complimented me, then there would be no point of you working 521 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,680 here, right? So they're much more rigid in 522 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,920 the way that they show leadership and they don't make 523 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,880 it clear that the employees can help them to learn and grow. 524 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,000 Yeah, no, totally. What, what are the, the telltale 525 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,320 signs that it's just simply not a good fit and it's not going to 526 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,920 get better? Like for me, kind of using 527 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,080 myself as an example, like I, I have this extreme ownership 528 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,000 Jocko mentality towards things. And if I've got a team, 529 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,960 especially with, you know, team our size, if if somebody's not 530 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,560 working at it's like a, it's like a cancer, it just festers 531 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,160 and it just is not good. So I take that upon myself. 532 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,360 I accept responsibility for it. So I try and fix the situation. 533 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:12,200 But my, my fault, so it seems is that I'll try and fix that to a 534 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,440 point where it just it, it's not going to get fixed. 535 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,120 Like there's some like for me there's just certain character 536 00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:22,320 traits in people that make a good team member and those that 537 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:23,840 don't. And for whatever reason, 538 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,280 sometimes there's just simply a not compatible fit. 539 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,080 So at what point do you know that's the case? 540 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,080 Yeah, that's a great question. And certainly we believe that 541 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,120 there are limits to this idea that you should be, you know, 542 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:40,840 learning about the employee and trying to adjust and trying to 543 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,320 accommodate, you know, whatever they have going on if they're 544 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,240 not a good fit for the job role. I would say two things. 545 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,240 One, the selection system that you're using is very important. 546 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,480 If you feel that I'm not saying that you do, I'm sure that this 547 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,400 is not the case. But if you feel like you're 548 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,680 frequently coming across an issue where you're finding that 549 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,840 people are not a good fit for the job or not a good fit for 550 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,040 the culture, there may be something about the way that 551 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,520 you're selecting people that needs to change so that you're 552 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,280 less likely to screen in people who are going to be a poor fit 553 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:11,640 and more likely to screen them out. 554 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,160 So that's always like a first line of defense, like how are 555 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,600 you making job related decisions about selecting people into the 556 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,280 organization. But beyond that, I think there 557 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:23,360 is one other thing which is sometimes what we think is a 558 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:27,360 people problem is a context problem or some other problem 559 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:30,440 that we're not anticipating. And I got that from a book 560 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,280 called Switch by Chip and Dan Heath that I use in my class and 561 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,720 in my MBA leadership class. And the students absolutely love 562 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,160 this book. It's an older book, but it's 563 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,160 great. And one of the things that they 564 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,320 say is before you assume something's a person problem, 565 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,800 you should, you should also look into whether it's a context 566 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,360 problem. So ask the person, be 567 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,760 transparent with the person that their performance is not up to 568 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,160 par. Ask them what's going on. 569 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,800 Like try to get a sense of is there something going on outside 570 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,200 of work? Is there something going on 571 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,680 inside of the workplace that we could help to make you more 572 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,480 motivated or help you to get the skills that you need to perform 573 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,760 well? So is it a competency based 574 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,520 issue? Do you need more resources or 575 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,360 training? Is it a motivation issue? 576 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,480 Is there something about this that's not exciting to you or 577 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,080 engaging to you? Is there a way we might be able 578 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,560 to change that? And then also, is there 579 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,680 something about what's going on outside of the job that might be 580 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,480 impacting your performance? That if I understood that I 581 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,840 could maybe do a better job of addressing what's going on, 582 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,160 right? If you've done those things and 583 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,400 asked those questions and tried to offer resources to up their 584 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,960 skills or tried to create a work environment where you're going 585 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,120 to be able to create a context that's motivating for them or 586 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,440 you better understand what makes them tick and you're trying to, 587 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,440 you know, tailor the situation to match with that. 588 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,920 If you've done all those things and it really is just a bad fit 589 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,200 from a confidence or motivation or culture perspective, then 590 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,160 it's OK to say like this person's just not a good fit 591 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,280 here. Like that's OK. 592 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,200 But I think people often jump from A-Z and we're kind of 593 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,200 asking people to try like, you know, jump to P 1st and then to 594 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,120 T and then maybe to Z, you know what I mean? 595 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,560 Try to see if there's something else to do. 596 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,800 Yeah, no, I totally agree. I feel like now too, I've, I've, 597 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:11,960 we've got such a good vibe at the moment. 598 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,400 We've had it for a while now that like I also lean on the 599 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,320 other members because like we've gotten to a point to where like 600 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,200 you can tell pretty early on if someone's going to jive well or 601 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,600 not. So I'm kind of taking this, I've 602 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,800 changed my onboarding process, which, you know, again, screens 603 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,160 out the negative much easier, much more efficiently. 604 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,840 But if it's like not a good cultural vibe because I'm 605 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,040 doubling down on coach, like if I would, I would be happy to 606 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,320 sacrifice some degree of productivity and efficiency for 607 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,040 a better culture. And I don't want to hinder what 608 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,960 we've got going out. So we got going is great. 609 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,280 So if it's like we bring them on and they're just not not driving 610 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,760 with the rest of team like it's like a quick to hire, quick to 611 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,480 fire scenario now. Yeah, yeah. 612 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,840 And I think the other team members perspectives can also be 613 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,040 helpful, right? And, and also it can help the 614 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,720 other team members to know that you did do some diligence to try 615 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,160 to dig a little deeper, figure out what was going on. 616 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,040 So that they also know that if at some point they had some 617 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,840 issue or performance problem, that you would do the same for 618 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,440 them, right? So like trying to make sure 619 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,480 you're doing some due diligence to take some steps to understand 620 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,360 the problem that you're facing. And then if the solution is 621 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,080 that, you know, this person's just not a great fit, of course, 622 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,760 we would never suggest that, you know, you continue to keep 623 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,480 somebody on that's not going to contribute positively to the 624 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,520 culture or who is not able to do their job well, right? 625 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,040 So I think there's a couple lines of defense. 626 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,600 But ultimately, yes, like we agree that there are definitely 627 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,520 situations where someone just not a good fit and that's 628 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,400 reality. Yeah, 100%. 629 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,000 When it comes to like incentive, you know, add-ons, bonuses, 630 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,360 perks, things like that, where do you all find in your research 631 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,880 to be like the most proverbial bang for the buck? 632 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:03,400 Like on on average, is the employee base more obviously 633 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,160 going to some outliers here, but like are they more, you know, 634 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,960 appreciative of, you know, health coverage or an increase 635 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,760 in pay? Or is it more so like the 636 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,800 cultural component, like having days allocated for team building 637 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,760 experiences outside the normal production flow? 638 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,480 Like what? Where do you find the needle 639 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,040 moves the most when it comes to these incentive programs? 640 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,920 Yeah, it's a great question. So there is a lot of research 641 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,280 out there on sort of basic need fulfilment. 642 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,400 So there are certain things that every job should have in order 643 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,160 to help employees to have their basic needs covered. 644 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,640 So paying a market rate for salary is 1, making sure that, 645 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,920 you know, people do have access to benefits that allow them to 646 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,240 allay their health anxieties like insurance. 647 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,440 So those, you know, having a certain amount of vacation days 648 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,680 to be able to take time away from work, those are sort of 649 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,400 like standard offerings, right, that help meet employees basic 650 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,040 needs and expectations. Above and beyond that, what we 651 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,040 found, which we thought was super interesting, is that what 652 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,680 came up time and again when people were talking about what 653 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,000 supports their Wellness, it was a good relationship with their 654 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,920 leader that just kept coming up and kept coming up. 655 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,680 You know, the leader is central to predicting whether or not I'm 656 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,520 going to have a good experience. So going back to your question, 657 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,120 the culture and the feeling, knowing that you're connected to 658 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,120 your team and that your leader sees you as a whole person, all 659 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,760 of that is seemingly at the center of what companies are 660 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,400 trying to get at when they're trying to promote Wellness. 661 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,600 So we're really trying to get companies to stop thinking about 662 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,920 Wellness as like a set of promotions or incentives and 663 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,280 really thinking about, let's get back to basics. 664 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,560 We need to train our leaders to create environments where people 665 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:53,440 can feel happy, feel healthy, and then it sort of all emanates 666 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,200 from the center, right? As opposed to having to, you 667 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,400 know, try to solve a problem that you're creating by having a 668 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,840 workplace that's not offering that kind of environment to 669 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,960 begin with. So of course, jobs are going to 670 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,639 be stressful and different jobs are going to be stressful in 671 00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:12,199 different ways. So we were just talking the 672 00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:18,000 other day to someone who runs a branch of a hospital surgeons 673 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,000 very high stress jobs. Is a brain surgeon ever going to 674 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,080 have the same amount of work life balance and stress as 675 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,000 somebody in an entry level position at a corporate job? 676 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:31,239 No, like the career path that they've picked is more stressful 677 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,560 and has less work life balance. It's just not going to be the 678 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,880 case. But compared to other brain 679 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,080 surgery centers, right? Could yours be one that has 680 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,000 better well-being and better leadership than another one? 681 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,840 Yes. So we're really interested in 682 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,400 trying to help companies understand how to get back to 683 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,000 those basics of creating the best work environment that they 684 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,120 possibly can from the center out, regardless of, you know, 685 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,440 kind of what the employees are tackling from the basics of the 686 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,320 job. Yeah, no, I totally agree. 687 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,000 I think every company should have a gym on site and have one 688 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,120 day or 11 moment where the the top level management, the 689 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,520 leaders train with the the the team. 690 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,600 I mean, I feel like that obviously isn't practical in 691 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,480 certain settings, but that's one thing that we've incorporated 692 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:16,800 here. And it, it checks all those 693 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,960 boxes because it, it makes you human. 694 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,200 You're struggling, you're going through difficulties. 695 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,160 It's obviously incentivizing health and well-being, but 696 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,080 people see you in a very, you know, primitive state, 697 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,760 struggling with weight, needing help or something of that 698 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,000 nature. I feel like that would check so 699 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,880 many boxes. Yeah. 700 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,400 And I also feel like part of what happens through those 701 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,840 activities, whether it's, you know, something like you're 702 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,760 describing or just going for a walk with a person or, you know, 703 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,520 having some sort of team building activity, it also helps 704 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,040 you to have conversations that are not work related, right? 705 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,280 And one of the things that we find is really important is 706 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,800 getting to know something about your employees outside of work. 707 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,760 For so long, I think that people were so staunch about, you know, 708 00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,800 well, that's your personal life. I shouldn't know about that. 709 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,760 And of course, we're not asking leaders to ask prying questions 710 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:08,080 or, you know, dig up inappropriate information about 711 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,520 people, right? But if you don't know, you know, 712 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,280 I've worked in working work environments where I've worked 713 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,680 alongside people for years and couldn't tell you the name of 714 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,080 their kids. You know what I mean? 715 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,480 Just, it was a work environment where we didn't even have that 716 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,360 kind of basic level of knowledge about each other. 717 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,640 And then I've worked in other work environments where, you 718 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,360 know, we know a lot about each other's hobbies and lives 719 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,360 outside of work. And, you know, what's been 720 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,120 stressing us out or something that's going on that's, you 721 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,960 know, really exciting or a trip that you took or all of those 722 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,600 conversations are more likely to come out when you take yourself 723 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,280 out of that normal work environment or out of that 724 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,240 normal cadence of, you know, this strict business meeting in 725 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:49,120 a conference room and just do something different. 726 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,480 Different kinds of conversations come up when you do different. 727 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,960 Yeah, no. 100% agree. One thing that we do we, we, we 728 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,280 have like these product launches and after every big launch we 729 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,000 try and do some form of team day. 730 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,520 So normal working day, paid on the hours, but like totally 731 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,320 removed from the normal settings. 732 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:06,760 Like tomorrow we're actually doing a team day. 733 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,200 We're all going to an escape room, which I've never done 734 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:10,000 before. So we'll see. 735 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,920 How we? Fare with that, but it'll be 736 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,320 interesting. Escape rooms are awesome. 737 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,240 I've been to actually several escape rooms. 738 00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:22,560 We have some very, very close friends who are very into escape 739 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,880 rooms and so whenever and we travel a lot with them. 740 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,960 So whenever we go to a new place, they find an escape room 741 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,440 when we go. I have to say it depends on the 742 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,160 level you pick, but like they're pretty tough. 743 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,320 Some of them are pretty hard. We haven't lost yet. 744 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,800 I need to bring you along for this trip then I guess we need 745 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,960 to have you get us out of this room, I guess. 746 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,760 But I think I think that's the key like people, people get so 747 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,520 caught up on, you know, the, the stats, the analytics, the 748 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,320 performance metrics. But like, if you just do that 749 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,280 without any deviation, without any break, without any default, 750 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,800 then you you lead the burnout. Whereas like, whereas you just 751 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,760 have that planned moment to, you know, do something outside the 752 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,400 norm. Like people get recharged and 753 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,160 get reinvigorated. They see the bigger picture, 754 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,000 they connect more closely with one another, and then the 755 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,200 overall productivity all increases. 100% And that's a 756 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,680 huge part of the message that we want to share is that people 757 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,960 often see and I think leaders, I mean, it's, it's understandable, 758 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,320 right? Oftentimes organizations set 759 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,520 these really big targets and they're like, you have to hit 760 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,920 these performance targets and it's all about the numbers, it's 761 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,720 all about the metrics. And so they sort of drown out 762 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:38,520 anything that's not in their minds directly related to that 763 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,560 metric, right? It's like production, 764 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,840 production, production. But what we're trying to show is 765 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,400 that if you just took a step back from that and thought, 766 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,960 well, what predicts production, right? 767 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,360 Not just breathing down people's necks and continuing to say, you 768 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,640 know, these are your targets and you need to hit the targets and 769 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,440 scaring people until they hit the targets. 770 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,560 Like all of those things are actually not what the research 771 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,000 shows leads to hitting the target. 772 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,280 What leads to hitting the target is creating an environment that 773 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,320 supports people wanting to do their best. 774 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:07,960 And feeling like they can do their best. 775 00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:11,040 And there's so many things going on in people's lives that can 776 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,600 cloud them from doing their best. 777 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,760 We talk a little bit about this in the book as well, that, you 778 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,800 know, if someone was physically extremely ill in the workplace 779 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,320 and sitting next to you and just like hacking, coughing and 780 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,120 sniffling and they have a fever, most workplaces would be like, 781 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,040 you know, you need to go home, right? 782 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,680 But when we have things going on mentally, things that are going 783 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,840 on emotionally, things that are going on outside of work that 784 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,920 we're missing, right? Like you're distracted because 785 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,520 you were supposed to leave at 4:30 to see your kids t-ball 786 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,200 game and but instead you're filing a report or something. 787 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,120 All of those things are actually contributing to your stress and 788 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,080 lack of well-being. But you can't see them, right? 789 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,400 So people are more likely to ignore those or you're missing 790 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,080 your, you know, daily run because you got pulled into a 791 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,080 meeting and now you're going to feel less energized, etcetera, 792 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,960 right? All of those things are harder 793 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,400 to see, harder to detect. So what we're really asking 794 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,040 people to do is take a step back and say, yes, numbers important 795 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,440 metrics important. Like all of this we agree, but 796 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,880 you have to say, well, what's? Leading those, what are the 797 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,400 things that actually are going to predict and focus your 798 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,440 attention on what leads to that, which is creating the 799 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,000 environment that makes that most likely. 800 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,160 And that's where a lot of your time and energy should be going 801 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,160 as opposed to just like reminding people over and over 802 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,000 again of the numbers. They know the numbers, now you 803 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,200 got to motivate them to get there. 804 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:32,840 Yeah. And it doesn't necessarily 805 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,400 happen overnight. Like a lot of this stuff can be 806 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,160 felt pretty acutely in a relatively short period of time, 807 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:38,800 but a lot of this stuff takes time. 808 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,720 But I mean like when you look at the compounding effect of a well 809 00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:45,000 functioning team, like the performance metrics will speak 810 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,600 for themselves over enough time because I mean everything is 811 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,320 going to improve. Absolutely, yeah. 812 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,480 We always suggest that when leaders start putting these 813 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,960 practices in place, or, you know, if you have already been, 814 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,760 try to capture the value of that through your metrics if 815 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,400 possible. Because then you can set a, you 816 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,280 can be a role model and set an example for other people, even 817 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,880 the most curmudgeonly person. If you've got better numbers and 818 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,400 you're saying this is how I'm doing it, well then maybe other 819 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,120 people can learn from you and the employees more broadly will 820 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,800 benefit because they'll all be in a better work environment. 821 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,400 100% I know this is all much deeper than you know, the 822 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,720 surveys and the, you know, Glassdoor reviews and any type 823 00:41:25,720 --> 00:41:28,760 of software application to manage this, but I'm a software 824 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,680 junkie and I'm always trying to streamline my operation. 825 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,280 So and working with companies over the years and doing what 826 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,720 you've done, are there any particular tools or, you know, 827 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,040 softwares that you use to kind of streamline this and justice 828 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,160 gather information and check analytics and justice overall 829 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,520 employee, you know, response to everything. 830 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,680 Yeah, that's a great question. So we, I think down the line 831 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,920 would love to build a software that helps keep track of these 832 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,200 behaviors that we've learned and helps encourage leaders to, you 833 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,320 know, engage in these behaviors and helps people to get feedback 834 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,280 or give feedback on whether their leaders are doing those 835 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,960 behaviors or other people on the team are so TBD on that. 836 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,560 But I do have a tool that I really like that a friend of 837 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,600 ours, Alexander Schwal, started a company called Rabbit. 838 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,960 It's like our habit and what that does is it's like pulse 839 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,800 survey reminders throughout the day, not only to provide 840 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,480 feedback to your team. So like, hey, you know, you 841 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,880 haven't necessarily checked in with your team about how they're 842 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,560 doing. Do you want to say thank you to 843 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,880 anyone for anything? Is there anything that you know 844 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,960 you want to provide some positive feedback on? 845 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,320 Is there anything that you think your team could have done better 846 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:37,920 today? Do you want to send some notes 847 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,000 of encouragement or constructive feedback for those? 848 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:46,160 So like helping people to get more in real time, encouragement 849 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,520 and also constructive feedback because that's also a motivator. 850 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,720 Getting kind feedback, people like that. 851 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,600 Feedback doesn't have to be scary if it's helping you, if 852 00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:57,680 it's coming from a good place and it's helping you grow, 853 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,680 people actually like it. And then also helping team 854 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,800 members to ping each other and show gratitude, give feedback. 855 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,240 It also helps facilitate post surveys. 856 00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:12,680 So instead of like waiting for the once a year annual survey to 857 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:14,040 be like, how do you like it here? 858 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,840 And the other 364 days, people are like, oh, well, we were 859 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,920 miserable and now you know, and you could have fixed it earlier. 860 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,920 It also allows you to post check people's feelings about how 861 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,040 they're doing really quick, like happy face, sad face, you know, 862 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,440 very fast types of ways of getting feedback so that you as 863 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,880 a leader also have a check in on like how's the culture going 864 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,800 today? Did something happen? 865 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,760 What's the impact? So those sort of more in the 866 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:41,200 moment ways of gathering data help you get clued into problems 867 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,840 quicker, get clued into bright spots quicker and allow you to 868 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,680 address them or capitalize on them faster. 869 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,760 So I really like that tool particularly. 870 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:51,280 Yeah, I got it pulled up right now. 871 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,440 Is there like a specific workplace size where that would 872 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,160 be relevant or irrelevant? Like is it because if you get 873 00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,600 too, if you're too small of a team, like having a whole bunch 874 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,880 of inundated software like people tend to to shun, but is 875 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,800 this pretty effective for even smaller teams? 876 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,560 Yeah, we usually say more than three people just because if you 877 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,920 have less than three, it then becomes like more identifiable, 878 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:16,560 right? And people feel uncomfortable 879 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,400 providing honest responses when it's like, well, I know it was 880 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,960 you, right, that said that you're unhappy with my 881 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,640 leadership today or whatever. In a very transparent culture, 882 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,400 that could go over fine, but in other cultures it might not. 883 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,280 So. So yeah, we always say a larger 884 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,480 than three team size, but over that, you know, people are 885 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,520 pretty honest about what they want to share. 886 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,440 Awesome, awesome. I will definitely check that 887 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,080 out. Well, tell me about the book. 888 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,520 So the book was released when? The book actually comes out 889 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,840 March 25th, but it's available for pre-order now on all of your 890 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,160 major booksellers. And the book is called Leading 891 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,760 for Wellness, How to create a team culture where everyone can 892 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,640 thrive. And our publishers, Wiley and we 893 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:02,200 are working with them and other folks to try to spread the word 894 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,120 about the importance of really, like I've been saying, getting 895 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,720 back to the basics around how do we train leaders to do this 896 00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:10,880 well? How do we get people to be more 897 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:12,760 like the generators that we heard about? 898 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,560 And those are the leaders people want to work for. 899 00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:19,720 And honestly, the the workers are the leaders that people say 900 00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:22,880 they want to be like. I really firmly believe that 901 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,080 most people, maybe maybe a small percentage, most people wake up 902 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,240 in the morning and say, like, I want to do well on the job 903 00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:30,040 today. I want to be a good leader. 904 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,160 They just have a lot of blind spots that are getting in their 905 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,120 way of seeing what the reality is, right. 906 00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:38,680 So how do you become the leader you want to be? 907 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,600 The leader you'd want to work for the people that you know you 908 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,480 do want to work for that and that companies want to hire in 909 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,640 value, right? How do you get to be that person 910 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,840 and stay away from the behaviors of the leaders? 911 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,760 We heard the opposite about these extinguishers, which suck 912 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,160 the energy out of teams, discourage people from doing 913 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,080 their best, don't really value whether people feel happy and 914 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,920 well, have a very like tunnel vision around numbers and 915 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,280 results without seeing the bigger picture. 916 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,320 So the book really gives a road map for how to become a 917 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,120 generator and avoid being an extinguisher, which we hope will 918 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,960 be helpful because actionability is huge. 919 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,680 I hate reading a book when I get to the end of it. 920 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,640 And I'm like, yeah, like, great concept. 921 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,600 What do I do, though? So we really wanted to solve 922 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,440 that problem by helping give people very clear behaviors that 923 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,440 they can do like tomorrow, that will help them get closer to 924 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,080 being a generator. I love it. 925 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,640 Is it written for the organizational leadership, or is 926 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,200 it written for anybody that's simply wanting to improve the 927 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,280 workplace at all? Yeah, that's a great question. 928 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,800 So we view leadership very broadly. 929 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,480 Anyone who has influence over a team culture is leading. 930 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,960 So you as a person who has a span of leadership. 931 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,440 So like for you, for example, as an entrepreneur, it would be 932 00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,400 particularly relevant, right, because you're in a formal 933 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,720 leadership role. But really all of us have 934 00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:05,720 influence over the team culture and can help either positively 935 00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:10,000 contribute or detract or obviously be neutral, no impact. 936 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,680 That's rarer. And so we view leaders really 937 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,880 broadly because everyone has their part to play in shaping 938 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,240 the team culture they want. Yeah, no, I think that's, that's 939 00:47:20,240 --> 00:47:21,800 key. I feel like everybody should 940 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,520 view themselves as a leader, whether you are, you know, on 941 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,280 the, you know, corporate hierarchy, so to speak, or not. 942 00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,240 I feel like, you know, I look at my team and it's like our 943 00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:33,640 freaking janitor is a rock star. Like he's got an awesome vibe 944 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,640 and we love having him around and like he's he's part of the 945 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,760 team just as much as anybody. And I think when you approach 946 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,120 the day with that mentality, knowing that every action or 947 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,520 inaction you make, every word you speak, every smile or frown 948 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:50,960 you put out is felt, then I mean, it it it all it, it has 949 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,640 that ripple effect that just goes so much wider and deeper 950 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,560 than any of us realize it can put our finger on. 951 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,560 But if you view yourself as a leader, that that in itself is 952 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,920 empowering because you actually feel like you've got, you know, 953 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,720 some dictation as to how the day plans out. 954 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,040 Yeah. And I love how you said that 955 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:10,160 because a lot of people overlook the importance of that and the 956 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,920 importance of really having people be viewed as people like 957 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:20,080 and not as expendable. You know that, oh, this person, 958 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:24,040 you know, there are many leaders who look at people in positions 959 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,480 lower than them and think like, well, that person, they don't 960 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,360 pay attention. They don't know their name or 961 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,320 they don't say hi. You know, I was doing some work 962 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,680 with a company where one of the things that came up over and 963 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,720 over again was, you know, senior leaders come in the room and 964 00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:42,440 they see a couple people who they're favorites and they say 965 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,840 hi and they don't say hi to anybody else. 966 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:46,480 They they might not even know my name. 967 00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,160 And if you think about that from just a motivational standpoint, 968 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,640 like you're just being overlooked or not seen or not 969 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:57,760 valued, that adds up over time where you're like, you know, I 970 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,160 could find somewhere else to go. Maybe I'm going to leave or I'm 971 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,400 not going to talk very positively about this place or, 972 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,760 you know, why should I go the extra mile when I don't even 973 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,560 think this person knows who I am, right? 974 00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:11,560 So, so all of that adds up and seeing people as team 975 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,240 contributors across the board as opposed to looking at in this 976 00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:18,520 very hierarchical, really more archaic way of thinking about 977 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,840 business, right is so important. But people don't have that 978 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,280 message yet across the board. Well. 979 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,520 That's what we got, people like you spreading the message. 980 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,160 I hope so. Well, apart from the the book 981 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:31,200 launch in March, what else has got you excited for the year? 982 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,760 Yeah. So we're going to be doing a 983 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:39,160 couple of really exciting events throughout the course of the 984 00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,120 year. We're going to have our book is 985 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,760 going to be in the window of the 5th Ave. 986 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,120 Barnes and Noble for a couple of weeks over the summer. 987 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,840 So we're going to go to New York City and do a book signing 988 00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,840 there. We're also having a book launch 989 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:56,200 party in April in Denver and various other events that we're 990 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:57,880 going to be having around the book. 991 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:02,080 So the book is really our big focus for the year and what 992 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,240 we're going to be trying to get out as much as possible. 993 00:50:05,240 --> 00:50:07,200 We spend a lot of time on it. We're really proud of it. 994 00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:08,560 We think it'll make a big impact. 995 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,800 But if, you know, folks follow us on social and keep track of 996 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,560 that, we're going to have some like fun pop up events across 997 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,240 the country in different places where people can meet with us 998 00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:23,680 and hear from us and speaking and also maybe get a copy of the 999 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,680 book. And while I don't think you can 1000 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,120 sell my signature for any value on eBay, if people want it 1001 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,640 signed we can do that too. I love it. 1002 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:33,640 I love it. What are the what are the social 1003 00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,920 profiles and the website links so I can send people your way? 1004 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,040 Yeah. So we're at worker being 1005 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:44,600 WORKRBEEING. So like a little B is our logo. 1006 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,720 That's our handle for all of our social and then you can follow 1007 00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:52,240 me on LinkedIn, Catina Sawyer, or my business partner Patricia 1008 00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:55,360 Gerbaric on LinkedIn to get all of the updates. 1009 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,960 Speaking of LinkedIn, I need to totally jump on LinkedIn. 1010 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,680 I've got a LinkedIn account, but I've not been focused on that at 1011 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:03,280 all. But I'm about to totally revamp 1012 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,480 on my organic social, so I need to jump on because Linkedin's 1013 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,400 like the place to be right now, right? 1014 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,280 It's growing wildly. We like it. 1015 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,320 If you join, I'll follow you right away so you'll have you 1016 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,920 know you know, you'll have one very fast follow. 1017 00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:21,280 Awesome, Awesome. Well, Cortana, I really 1018 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:22,800 appreciate the time. I appreciate the message. 1019 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,440 Like I said, I don't typically have this genre on the podcast, 1020 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,840 but it's super important and it applies to everyone that's doing 1021 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:30,560 anything in the world, so it makes sense to have you. 1022 00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,440 Thank you so much. I really appreciate your open 1023 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,400 mindedness and kind of spreading out into this domain and this 1024 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,320 has been an awesome conversation, so thank you so 1025 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:40,120 much. You bet. 1026 00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:41,840 We'll definitely keep in touch. If there's anything I can do to 1027 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,840 help move the message forward, you just let me know. 1028 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,160 Thank you so much. Take care.