Well, hello ladies and gents. Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com.
Today I've got special guest Christian Unger on the podcast.
Last time I had him on the show it was in 2019.
He had just finished his master's program and he's
actually going to be defending his dissertation for his PhD in
two days. So super stoked for him.
There. We dive deep into some of the
research he's been working on regarding sex steroid hormones
in the muscle tissue and how that can implicate hypertrophy.
So very interesting stuff there. We also talk about parenting a
little bit. He's got a baby on the way due
in February, so I'm super stoked for him there.
We talked about HRT and TRT specifically, both in males and
females. So very interesting information
and insight in that department as well.
And we also just talked about what is going on with people
majoring in the minors right now as it pertains to nutrition,
sleep, you know, supplementation, like what do
people need to focus on? What do they need to disregard?
What do they need to, you know, put their attention to details?
So very enjoyable conversation. I've got a lot of respect for
Christian. He's an incredibly smart
individual and I'm just excited for all that he's working on and
has in the pipeline. So without further delay, sit
back, relax, enjoy the podcast conversation with Christian
Unger and we are live Christian. How are you brother?
I'm doing well. How are you Robert?
I'm good man. I'm good.
When was the last time we chatted?
I had you on the podcast, but it's been shoot man, it's
probably been over 2 years now, right?
I I think it was actually 2019, 2019, man, that's crazy.
And then you had AI saw you at a conference, I think it was the
Keto Summit in Nebraska. I guess probably 2019 too,
right? No, I don't think I'm the last
time I, it was Keto continue like 2019 that was that was
probably the last time I saw you.
Yeah. Gotcha, gotcha.
And you've had all kinds of things happening in your world
since then. I saw you've got a baby on the
way due in February. That's awesome.
Congrats there. Yes, the little boy on the way.
I'm excited to be a father. That's obviously the most
important thing I'll ever do in life, so I definitely looking
forward to that. It's the best man.
Like, I didn't know what to expect, you know, becoming a dad
myself. But our sons about a year and a
half now, and it's the best man. Like like him saying Dada and
looking up at me and smiling like there's literally nothing
that beats that. I definitely agree there because
like I always like to the people who are like unsure, like
nervous, I'm like the if the goal is to be like the the best
possible father and mother you can be because whatever you do
like work or life like. How you raise your child is
going to be the longest lasting thing you ever accomplished,
because how you treat your child and raise them will impact how
they raise their children. And it's just transgenerational
compared to whatever I do with work or like, which is
completely meaningless in the grand scheme.
Yeah, I think that is 100% the right way to look at it.
Like you are imparting some generational impact when you
parent a child. And I really try to be very
proactive with that. Like, I'm listening to a bunch
of parenting books on mindset and stoicism and subscribing to,
like, you know, fathering newsletters, and we're trying to
figure out what we want to do from an educational standpoint.
All things that I never really spent much time focusing on
prior to having a kid. But now that I have a kid, it's
like, now this is a paramount concern for me right now.
It yeah, I definitely understand that.
And I also think like there's a lot more resources for mothers
as compared to like fathers, like there's there's not a whole
lot of. Information out there are like
leaders in the, I guess the field discussing that, but
there's a ton of motherly stuff. So just finding the way is the
the key. Yeah.
And it's weird because like societal shifts have always been
such that they place a lot of that parenting burden on the
mother. Like the father's just been the
one expected to go to work, be the breadwinner and then kind of
have like a not a hands off approach, but like less of an
informed approach. And I've started to see a lot
more content coming out around fathering, which I'm excited
about because I think that is huge.
Plus, I mean you look at all the statistics on how many, you
know, single parent homes there are nowadays, how many kids are
growing up without a father. I mean that's definitely a
massive problem. So anything we can do to get
that shifted in the correct direction is going to be key.
Yeah, if if anybody's ever really interested, go just go
look at that data and like the increased risk of.
On behavior, the future outcomes for the child like the, the
fatherless households like that, it's almost unbelievable like
how important that is and I'm glad that's like changing
compared to probably 40-50 years ago where the the husband just
went to work all day and then that's about it As compared to
like now we're seeing more involvement like how the
important of the father etcetera.
Yeah. Now this 100% this is kind of
not not even what I thought we were going to talk about to
begin with, but I'm glad we're going here.
Are there any particular resources or books or anything
that you're diving into right now in preparation?
Off the top of my head right now, no.
I've just been more focused on like the just the the baby, the
like the health of the baby, like the the short.
I have more short term outcomes. I'll definitely have to.
I'll definitely transition over the next 6 to 8 months is
especially once once he arrives. Well, taking care of the health
of the baby before he arrives is so critical to a lot of people.
Don't give any thought to that, but like the the epigenetic
effect of what you're doing for your health, what your wife's
doing for her health in pregnancy like that has so much
more profound impact than people realize.
So the fact that you're even thinking about that is is
awesome, man. Yeah, they're like for from a
data perspective like the the children of insulin resistant or
type 2 diabetics, they are already at an increased
likelihood of becoming insulin resistant and having type 2
diabetes later in life. So like the, the important, the
importance of like when. And health leading up to
consumption and African and like during development is extremely
important. Yeah, 100%.
What is your wife's nutrition like?
Is she pretty? Well you know, all animal based
or what is she doing? She eats more of a just a
balanced diet. She doesn't handle low carb very
well so we we just keep a very mixed diet.
Probably leaning more Mediterranean but just a little
bit of everything Definitely animal products.
I'm. I'm.
Hugely biased there, but like, I think it's vitally important to
health. But we've been doing lots of the
prenatal, lots of like omega-3 fish oil, EPADHA leading up to
pregnancy. So we we we've been hitting the
basics there, but just overall probably just balanced
nutrition, all real food though, which is the main thing.
Yeah, yeah. Limiting the, the, the crap
essentially. Nice.
Very nice. Well, shoot, man.
What what do you what do you squatting nowadays?
Probably. Mid 5 hundreds I I'm actually
about to start preparing to compete in powerlifting for the
first time. So I got to got to get back on
the the the train, getting back into it.
Nice. Well, I was just stalking you on
IG man. Last I saw a clip of you doing
like 635 or 655 or whatever it was and you're just a freaking
beast of nature on the strength front man.
So the powerlifting will be cool.
Yeah, I'm. I'm looking forward to that.
I would like to finally hit the the 700 squat that's been
eluding me for the last five years, but I'd like to finally
focus and hit it for once. What?
What's your weight right now? I'm around 2:20, but I would, I
would probably like to compete powerlifting probably right
closer to 200 one 98 and remind me how tall you are.
I'm 5 foot 9, 5 foot nine, yeah. So you got a few inches on me.
I feel like I'm withering away, man.
I'm like I woke up at my new low today at 154.2.
But you're also extremely lean right now.
I'm a little little fluffier, yeah.
Definitely different into the spectrum right now, man.
But I I like embracing each phase for what it is.
I mean, there are times when I like the fluffiness, and there
are times when I like the leanness.
Either indefinitely is probably not ideal.
Yeah. No, I I would like to drop drop
a little bit like right around the.
Probably 12 to 15% body fat. That's where I probably feel the
best and also blood work looks the best, so that's probably
where my ideal range is. I think that's like pretty much
my sweet spot in a building phase to like a 12 to 15% body
fat. I still have visible ABS.
I feel good about how I look. My cheeks are a little bit more
filled out than I like. I got more rounded face than I
would ideally prefer, but I feel like from a overall health
standpoint, 12 to 15%, you've got enough to maintain proper
lab panels but also be it enough of a surplus to build more lean
tissue. I think that's a good sweet spot
for most guys. Yep, exactly like I that that's
probably and not not even probably I I know that's where I
feel the best. So I I'm working to get back
there and then just building strength slowly with trying to
avoid injury. That's the plan coming up.
Love it, ma'am. Love it.
Well, in 2019, when we last spoke, you were in the process
of getting your PhD, right? I had just finished my master's
degree and now, funny enough, I'm about to defend my
dissertation on Wednesday. So hopefully after Wednesday
I'll be Doctor Unger. So nice, man.
Well, that that's super exciting.
Congrats Regardless the outcome. I'm sure you're going to do
great, but that that's a massive accomplishment, man.
So huge Congrats to you there. Yes, excited to finally be done
school and started applying it. Yeah, yeah.
What? What's the dissertation on?
My so our lab's research, we focus on sex differences in
metabolism, but I my projects have mainly been revolved around
sex steroids and sex steroid receptors in skeletal muscle and
their importance essentially. Well, I'm excited to chat with
you man, because you are a very data-driven individual.
You love getting into the weeds and I love getting into the
weeds as well. I am not nearly as technically
savvy as you, but I am open minded and receptive to anything
you have to say. So just kind of peel the curtain
back on some interesting research that you've been doing
currently and just what's got you excited right now?
Probably the the biggest thing that I think probably applies to
most people is just the how valuable exercise is, especially
with insulin resistance. For for example, like a a single
bout of exercise can improve insulin sensitivity by 40% and
that's irregardless of weight loss.
So like. If you're trying to lose weight
but also focus on health like you can't, I would not just try
to diet my way there. I I want you want to essentially
combine the benefits of exercise with the weight loss to improve
insulin sensitivity, your hemoglobin, A1C like basically
metabolic health. Too many people try to focus on
one or the other, but it's really a a combo that drives the
overall healthy phenotype. I really get frustrated when I
hear people ask like what percentage of it is exercise
versus nutrition. They they always want to break
it up, like 50% exercise, 50% nutrition.
I'm like no, no, you got to go 100% both because they're both
on two different spectrums that work in symbiosis with one
another. So you just need to give both of
them their well deserved attention.
Yep, exactly. Because even like when I in the
past when I've been training extremely hard, I like tons of
volume but like just eating. Terrible.
Like the outcomes weren't good. I definitely was not.
My blood work was not up to par. I was heavier than I wanted to
be. So like you you really need to
combine both. And I just people trying to give
percentage points like if you could put exercise in a pill it
would be the pill prescribed around the world.
Like just the the overall benefits between mental health,
especially, especially with going with where we are in
society now, and then the effects on just overall health
like you can't. Pass up exercise, no matter how
clean you're eating and exercise like it's daunting to people
that don't exercise. Like, people that exercise
regular, like you and I like it's just a part of our day as
much as brushing our teeth is. But people that don't exercise
and hear that word, they hear barbells, dumbbells, gym
equipment. They just, like, go into a panic
attack. But like if you actually distill
it down to its core, the benefits of exercise can be had
with a pretty minimum viable dose.
Yep, I I would completely agree and the people who are really
like intimidated about it. I just start with getting a
decent amount of like steps daily.
Like if you don't have to go in to start running miles or going
to squatting tons of weight, just start with the basics.
Like what if you look at the overall mortality data on step
count, Like once you get to that 6008 thousand steps a day,
10,000, like you see it. It kind of level off like if we
can if everybody just shop for like I think 8 probably 6 to
8000 a day at the just at the bare minimum like your overall
health is going to drastically improve just like going for AI
to kind of quote. I think Stan efforting he really
drove this like the importance of this like a walk after eating
like drastically impacts like glucose levels especially if you
had a higher carbohydrate meal. So I just being active
throughout the day and just getting daily step like just
start there and you don't have to.
Go run a marathon way or Miles just getting exercise.
Yeah 100%. Do you listen to many Huberman
podcast? Yes, I I him Tia a big, big fan
of Post. Yeah, I've recently started
listening to a lot more Huberman podcast like while I'm training
as opposed to for whatever reason.
When I'm in a deficit, I prefer to listen to podcasts and books
when I train as opposed to music.
But I've been listening to him while I train and I listened to
his. He had like a six part series
with Andy Galpin. Did you catch that by chance?
Yep, I I listened to that like fully and that that conversation
and like everybody should listen to it no matter where you are on
the the fitness spectrum like it it was like 9:50.
You can't from the exercise physiologist perspective.
It was fantastic. Yeah, I got a lot out of that
one for sure. There's a few things that I I
don't necessarily disagree with, but I think galloping from a
nutritional standpoint, listening to the nutrition
podcast, it seemed like he was a little bit biased towards carbs
simply because that's where most of the research has been done.
Which totally makes sense. That's where the research is.
But from the exercise Physiology standpoint, like I was giving
that podcast out to my mom who just recently started weight
training. Because regardless, like you
said, regardless of where you're at on the spectrum, hearing that
information can't help but instill the importance of
training. And I like how he broke it down
to different formats of, you know, subjecting the body to
exercise. So you've got like a strength
and I approach a few component, you've got like a a velocity and
you know explosiveness component and you get like an endurance
and aerobic standpoint. I feel like if people break that
apart and kind of figure out how to, you know, intertwine those
throughout their routine, that makes a lot of sense.
Yep, and especially the. The probably I the part that's
most overlooked by people is the power aspect because as we age
and get older, the ability to produce force quickly just
declines. It's a natural part of aging and
that if you look at the data with power training and older
adults like it can help prevent falls.
It just quality of life improves like training power is just as
important as pranks especially with aging.
It's just often it's. I believe it's underappreciated,
yeah, because they were saying that power is the of the three
main components. So you've got the endurance, the
strength and the power. As you age, the power and
explosiveness is the one that declines the quickest.
Is that right? Yep, that is correct.
And you can see that with Olympic sports like the very the
power oriented athletes, they're usually all younger compared to
like the endurance athletes. You're most likely to win a
marathon, probably in 30s forties as compared to the 2025
thirty year olds who are doing power based events.
So let me ask you a selfish question here because I don't
honestly do much explosive work. Like as a bodybuilder, I'm not
doing a ton of cardio or endurance work, although I have
done some, you know, marathon training and stuff in the past.
But most of my training is focused on hypertrophy and then
kind of strength as a subset of that.
But I'm not really doing much explosive work.
So if you were me and I wanted to start proactively
incorporating this in my 30s, and then just continue it as I
age, what would be your recommended form of training for
explosiveness? To keep it.
Probably just brief and simple. For upper body I love a medicine
ball throw, so either chest press or rotational.
And then for lower body, I really like either a box jump or
just a standing broad jump. So just like having a weighted
medicine ball on my chest and throwing it.
Up you can do, Yeah. Well, you can do.
Basically just like a pass like just pressing straightforward
but the the big one would be kind of like a rotational throw
into a wall. I think that the the rotational
component on that is it quite, quite good.
What What kind of weighted medicine ball are you thinking?
I I use 8 to 15 pounds. I I don't do it that heavy
because you're you're more focused on moving it quickly
essentially. Yeah.
And that makes sense. Yeah.
And box jumps are good. I don't.
I don't do box jumps, but I've I've always liked box jumps.
Whenever I go to a gym that has a box, I'll use it.
So I need to just simply get some boxes and start doing some
box jumps. Yep, box jumps.
And then I I love to incorporate just a standard broad jump.
A lower lower risk of injury, and anybody can do it.
You just need a flat surface, and from an explosive and power
output standpoint, I'm assuming that would have pretty much the
same benefit of doing sprints for instance, but not near the
risk of injury. Yeah, like I I love sprints and
incorporating sprints. But like like you said like as
as people get older and then you're not often sprinting like
it, it definitely can be an injury.
You risk to a hamstring, knee, ankle, and with the box jumps,
you're also going to benefit from the landing component
because especially as people age, they have, I think.
I don't know if it was a Tia I heard this from or somebody, but
like most injuries as people age come from simply not catching
themselves as they walk down the stairs or just take a step off
of something. But if you're doing box jumps
and consistently landing those box jumps, that's going to build
up the resilience in your knees, your ankles, your entire kinetic
chain, so that you're going to be much better suited for that.
Yeah, the the eccentric component and being able to
control like walking downstairs, stepping off things like being
able to slow down is that that is usually where people tend to
get in trouble. If you were me and your training
as a bodybuilder, when would you incorporate those two movements
in the workout? As a warm up or as a cooldown.
I like them as a warm up, OK, personally.
All right. Well, I will start doing that.
I've been doing the Ben Patrick knees over toes program as a
warm up and I'll just throw in the box jumps and the medicine
ball throws into that as well because it doesn't take, I mean
you're doing what like probably 10 to 15 reps, two or three,
four sets. I I would probably, I like kind
of lower reps for explosive work.
I'll do like probably in the maybe 3-3 to 8 range and then
like three to four sets. OK.
So you're talking like 10-15 minutes tops?
Max Yeah, you you can knock it out in short, pretty short time.
Yeah, that, that's good stuff. And one thing that ATT has been
a big fan of is like a grip strength as a proxy for.
You know, overall health and robustness as you age and I'm
trying to get my mom to just simply hold on to a bar and and
dead hang basically for as long as she can.
I think that would be a super good thing for people to
incorporate on a regular basis. Yeah, dead hangs or just
weighted carries. Everybody should probably do
something more. Weighted carries like that's
that is a defining component of humans as a species, and just
being able to do that and maintaining that functional
strength over time is extremely important, 100% All right, so
let's dive into some of your research.
Specifically, So you said steroid hormones within the
muscular tissue itself, correct? Yes, we we're, we look at a
global like circulating sex steroids levels and tissue
level. But if a caveat is all my
research is preclinical so it is in mice, so.
Obviously, take that for what it's worth.
It may not always translate, but that we're really focused on
like sex steroids and like hormone replacement therapy.
OK, I definitely want to dive into that, but I I do want to
start this conversation with the caveat you made about it being
in mice. So there's this huge debate
right now on social media, it seems, about the validity of
research papers done in mice. You've got a certain cohort that
like, won't even look at any scientific studies because
they're like, oh, it's all done in mice, doesn't even apply to
me. And you got other people like,
no, it's 100% if it if it carries over mice, it's 100%
going to be the case for humans. How should one look at research
when it's done in mice in your opinion?
Yeah, that that is a great question and that people people
often get this wrong because it's not in.
I wouldn't say it's an either or you have to take it for what
it's worth. So if you're showing something
in like in a mouse like. The eventual goal for most
preclinical researchers is to get that to translate to humans,
like get rid from the mouse to the human.
But not all stuff does. Like for example in in my field,
mice don't have a sexual hormone binding globulin, while humans
do. So like that it changes how you
kind of interpret, interpret sex steroid levels and also sex
steroids in male mice for example, like the reference
range if humans it's like. 200 nanograms per to around 1100 for
mice it would be like 200 to 10,000.
Like the the reference range is completely different.
So like you have to look at the whole of the evidence with like
what you're like looking at. Like, I definitely wouldn't take
a mouth study and just start implementing it into myself
because you never know if that's going to fully translate to
humans, right? Totally.
You mentioned sex, hormone binding, globulin.
I want to dive into that because I have always had higher levels
of sex, hormone binding, globulin, and I don't know why.
Maybe it's genetic. I wouldn't think it's because of
anything I'm eating. I'm pretty conscious of that.
I'm not, you know, using any topical, you know, skin care
products that could be a hormone disruptor.
Is that something that is likely just genetic or where is that
coming from? Based on.
Well knowing like what you look like in your probably blood work
looks like you it. I definitely wouldn't say it's
diet or anything you're doing. It's probably mostly genetic,
but hard to know for sure. But question what?
What is your free testosterone compared to the total
testosterone? What percent Like percent of is
it? I'll tell you exactly when I
just get blood work done. I will tell you this though.
My My testosterone has tanked since I'm so lean lately.
It is crazy how much it's dropped.
Yeah, being extremely lean, sub sub seven, sub 6%, you're you're
not looking at a healthy hormone profile.
I can. I can tell you that, 'cause I
noticed the same thing. OK, so my total testosterone is
typically between 500 and 700 nanograms per deciliter.
That's my normal baseline. And then on 7/17, after I'd been
prepping for quite some time, it dropped down to 169.4, which is
crazy though. And then I tested again on the
3rd of this month 10/3 and it went down to 86 total
testosterone, which is crazy low, man.
That that's that's almost, that's extremely impressive.
I must say it's extremely impressive in an unimpressive
way. Yeah, yeah, definitely not good
long term, but that that is very impressive, that the.
The The body's compensating that much.
Yeah. It it's wild though, because
like a lot of the symptoms people describe when they have
testosterone, that's that's low. I haven't really been
experiencing like I don't have any massive drop in strength or
energy or mental acuity or excitement or fulfillment in
life. My libido is definitely pretty
well non existent right now. But other than that, everything
else is coming along pretty good.
That that's impressive. I I definitely.
When I when I've been on the lower end, I definitely felt it.
So, like I I'm thoroughly impressed that you're still
you're you're functioning and still kicking butt in the gym.
And people don't realize too, like your steroid hormones are
so directly linked to your body fat levels.
I mean, that's pretty much like the driver of your steroid
hormones to an extent. And I'm not really worried about
it, 'cause I know that when I start eating more and put on a
healthy level of body fat, those numbers will return, as they
have in the past. But that's why I'm I'm really
going to try and document the significance of this reverse
diet so much because people they just want to chronically be lean
and diet and eat sub optimal calorie intake and they don't
realize because they don't test their blood work very often how
much of an impact that's truly making on them.
Yeah. A lot of people just don't like
another, like just message for everybody.
You you get your blood work done, like you need to know
what's going on. If the prices have come down.
It's not. That expensive to get a hormone
panel, but it the information is invaluable and like just being
that lean long term definitely is not good for sex stories.
But like you said that they will come back.
They will regulate back to normal.
It's just very, very important that people often overlook,
yeah, 100%. Anyways, I totally derailed the
question. So my, like I said, total
testosterone is typically 500 to 700.
Currently it's 86. My free testosterone is let's
see here, When it was 700 total testosterone, my free was 51.7
PG per ML and then currently it is 8.6.
So that's dropped quite a bit as well.
And then my sex hormone binding globulin is normally in the 50s
to 75 is the high nanomoles per liter it looks like.
OK, let's see. A general like just rule of
thumb for free testosterone you usually want it to be around
like 2 to 3% of total. Once you get below that that's
when people can start to notice the like.
The side effects of lower testosterone cause like the free
testosterone is your public more the more biologically active
testosterone and as we age sex hormone binding globulin goes
up. So it probably is for you.
It's most likely a genetic but like like you said you're you're
at. Mid 80s, nineties right now, but
you feel pretty good. So like, that's that's
impressive. So I wouldn't really be too
concerned about your slightly elevated sexual and binding
globulin. Yeah, I'm.
I've never really been too concerned about it.
I've had haters online. It's kind of weird, man.
Like when you, when you get lean, people automatically
accused you of taking steroids. And I just like, say, hey man,
I'm 155 pounds right now and my testosterone's 86.
I'm not taking these steroids. Yeah, yeah, but people are
trolls. But I've always had like this
weird, like super small. I don't even notice it until
people pointed out online. But like, I've got like a little
bit of gyno in my right or in my left nipple and I'm like, man,
what in the world caused it? But I think I've had it since
puberty, so I'm assuming it's probably just genetic based.
And I don't know, I don't really pay any money, I don't really
care. But you've always got the haters
that pointed out and tell you that you're taking stuff.
Yeah, it puberty it does. Often occur for young males.
So like I I definitely wouldn't doubt it.
I and based on your testosterone of seventy 80s, you're
definitely not on TRT. Yeah, definitely not.
Plus I just passed on my drug test, so I'm in the clear there.
When it comes to these exogenous hormone replacement therapies
that have definitely grown in popularity as of late, you know
that that's a major focus of your studies right now.
What's your take on that? Like I've I've had multiple
people on the podcast, both male and female talking about it.
There's a it's kind of like the the Wild West right now because
you've got all these clinics popping up every street corner
where people seem to be able to just walk in, say, hey, I'm not
feeling too great, this is my levels, Can you get me
something? And then they walk out with, you
know, exogenous testosterone. And for some people, they
definitely could benefit from it.
So I'm not trying to, you know, short circuit them by any means,
but like it seems like this is kind of unchartered territories
for the masses. Yeah, it it definitely is.
So disclaimer, I'm obviously not a medical doctor, but from my
perspective, I think a lot of people are a lot.
Well, let's start with both sexes.
A lot of men are going on when possibly they didn't need it,
when they should have focused on lifestyle interventions instead
of kind of covering up the underlying issues such as sleep,
nutrition, exercise, etcetera. And but also there, I know I've
seen a lot of people who are not.
Doing enough blood work while they're on and their TRT dose is
almost it's super phraseological.
So you they're above 1200 nanograms per deciliter.
So like if you're doing it you need to be under the supervision
of obviously a qualified Dr. in running the frequent blood work
because how each individual like metabolizes testosterone is
completely different like you you often have to change the
dose. It's not just a here.
We're going to put you on 100. 100 milligrams per week and all
is good. Now you you need to frequently
check because aromatization between individuals which
aromatization is conversion from testosterone to estradiol.
It can be widely different. Some people can be
hypermetabolizers of testosterone, hypometabolizers.
So like it really you really need to monitor with frequent
blood work because I think a lot of people are sitting super
physiologically above what TR what I would consider TRT and
what would you consider frequent enough on the blood work like
every three months, every two months.
Well, if you're first starting, I would definitely recommend
like like a couple, like every couple weeks to get that dose
narrowed down. But from if you're on it and
like you're monitoring your blood work, yeah, probably.
I like every four to six months just to check on everything.
Gotcha. Yeah, that makes total sense.
And I feel like a lot of people, like you said, they don't
realize how much their lifestyle factors can can indicate this or
dictate this. Rather, I mean, there's been
times where I've been super stressed with the business and
sleeps been compromised to the point where my testosterone
would drop like 3 or 400 points within a week simply because I
was stressed and not sleeping. And that does not mean I need to
go and get exotitous hormone replacement.
Yeah, a lot of people will do their blood work one time and
they have no past history of, like monitoring blood work.
And they'll notice oh, I'm low T and then immediately jump to TRT
when in reality they needed to take more of a holistic approach
and address the stress, address the sleep, address the nutrition
and exercise 100%. So for people that are taking a
proper adequate dose, monitoring their blood work on a regular
basis and maintaining physiological levels of a
healthy total testosterone or free testosterone, and they're
not having any issues with aromatizing that correctly, what
is happening endogenously with their natural production, are
they going to experience any adverse effects downstream?
Are they going to be down regulating their endogenous
production? If they're simply maintaining
normal physiological levels as the age like, how does that pan
out? Yes.
So if you are on it chronically you are going to get endogenous
suppression of LH and FSH which signals to the testes to produce
testosterone as well as sperm production.
So if you are on it long enough you will potentially experience
a natural shutdown and then the ability to get that back can
vary individual to individual. You could either.
Even just come off and immediately comes back or have
to use HCG, clomiphene, HMG to recover the natural production.
So if you if you're going to go on it and want to maintain
fertility, they usually do prescribe other drugs to help
maintain them. Is there any adverse effects
that we know of thus far for people like as they age well
into their later years like seventies, 80s, like are they
going to be better off having that higher levels like because
if they're supplementing with him throughout, you know,
menopausal years and beyond or guys, you know, 40s, fifties,
60s, etcetera, you know your your decline in testosterone is
going to happen naturally. Are they going to experience a
net gain or net loss as they get into their elder years by taking
that exogenously? It's kind of a little question
we we may not even know yet. If for males, I definitely
believe that it's a overall a net positive as long as you're
managing overall blood work essentially.
So like I I think it's a net positive and you're on top of
blood pressure on top of you're not having any any negative
effects on lipids, you're managing everything else.
But like like you said, we we do have limit somewhat limited long
term data especially for people who are just.
Replacing to a physiological level, but right now I would say
the data as a whole suggests that it it would be a net
positive. If you are in the subset of
needing or noticing, you have symptoms of low testosterone.
Yeah, I I think I'm in agreement with you on that based off of
what I've seen in the data. What's interesting though for
me, and I don't mean to make this by me about me by any
means, but as a natural competitor they ban all that
stuff even if you're only competing or only taking a
physiological dose to bring you up to physiological levels.
They don't allow any of that stuff.
So it's kind of this catch 22 in the natural federations because,
and I think this is holds true regardless of the sport, not,
not if it's just bodybuilding, but other sports as well Like if
they have down the banned substance list, it's there's
like a point in which you are actually sacrificing your health
and well-being by maintaining your natural status and not
really sure how I feel about that.
Yeah that's a that's a tricky one that that's hard to say like
I don't I don't even know what I would do in that situation but I
definitely feel like that it yeah just maintaining lower
levels especially if you are hypogonatic and just having
issues. I I'm I'm very pro TRT and even
HRT for women, but I it just. It's it's a tricky situation and
it makes sense. Like, I get why they do what
they do because if you are taking anything, then you
shouldn't necessarily be allowed to compete with people that
aren't because they don't have that benefit.
So I mean, I totally get where they're coming from, but like I
would love to be able to compete when I'm 60-70 years old.
Am I willing to sacrifice the health benefits of the TRT at
that point simply to be able to compete?
I don't know. I haven't gotten there yet.
And then it's also, like you said, like when you're dieting
and getting extremely lean, your testosterone is dropping.
So like you can make the counter argument it's almost fair to
just stay at a natural level. But then you'd obviously have an
advantage when it comes to lean mass retention and energy
levels. Yeah, totally.
So it's, yeah, it's murky territory, I think.
I mean, I think they're doing it right.
And just saying, hey, look, if you take these substances, you
can't compare as natural. I mean that just seems like the
the most black and white answer. But yeah, at some point, like
when I'm 70 years old or 60 years old, I'm going to be like,
OK, what do I want to do more? Do I want to be healthier and
feel better or do I want to keep competing?
But who knows? I mean, maybe with me having my
diet dialed in and training dialed in at such a young age
that will, I'll be able to bypass a lot of those adverse
effects of aging anyways. Who knows?
Yeah. And that's that's another thing
with aging like I think the majority, like a lot of people
are like you, you hit 4050 and just.
Testosterone drops off the Cliff, but like, not.
That's not for everybody. There are individuals who
maintain healthy levels into extremely late age or never have
symptoms. Like, it's it's an individual
case by case basis. Yeah.
And honestly, like, the fact that I feel as good as I do now
with total testosterone of 86, like kind of puts my mind at
ease too. It's OK, I can.
I can function pretty Dang good with low testosterone, so I
should be pretty bulletproof as I age.
Did you happen to get estradiolamine measured during
that blood work? Yeah, yeah.
Let me see here. So estradiol, there was a couple
times where they did not measure that, but I am currently.
It just says less than two PG per ML.
So I don't know what the actual measurement is, but it's less
than two. Whatever.
Whatever it is, what's it supposed?
To be yeah. So the general reference range
for males, I've seen 20 pigograms to 50 pigograms per
ML. But one major issue, and this is
one of like a huge part of our work.
Majority of estradiol measurements when you're getting
blood work, they're done by a method called an Eliza and
enzyme linked linked amino assay.
But those are notoriously bad for actually measuring estradiol
as certain supplements and other medicines can interfere with the
assay and then the assays aren't that reliable.
So if you are going to order blood work at male or female,
make sure that your doctor is ordering.
In estradiol measurement that is LCMS or GCMS liquor
chromatography mass spectrometry or gas chromatography basically
they're very fancy measurements ways to measure estradiol that
are way better and actually give you an accurate measurement and
that's that's what I do in the lab.
We we can measure down to 0.1 picograms per million like or
per gram in tissue. So I got.
You get so much more sensitivity and specificity with mass spec
that I, if I see an estradiol on my blood work and it was done,
finalize. I don't.
I almost don't trust it at all. That is good to know.
I got it tested in 2020 so quite some time back and it was
showing 20 peak grams per ML, but I don't know what
measurement they used to test that interestingly.
Enough. Oh, go ahead.
No, that 20 is you're you're in the reference range like for
mine I like to hover around 25 to 30 picograms per meal.
That's where I I feel the best and I I want the the healthy
levels of estrogen because even in males estrogen is extremely
important. Yeah, totally.
Interestingly enough, with this latest draw on 10/3, with all my
testosterone being tanked, my FSH and LH were still totally
within the range at 4.9 and 1.8 respectively, so I thought it
was interesting that those didn't drop below the marker.
Yeah, that's actually really interesting 'cause I would
suggest that your hypothalamus and methuitary aren't shutting
down and it's still signaling to the testes, and it's the testes
not producing enough testosterone.
So that is actually very interesting.
Yeah, that gives me hope that you know everything will return
to normal once I start. Eating more.
Once you get a little more food and body fat, I definitely would
expect it to come back, especially since FSH and LH
aren't taking a hit. Yeah, I would definitely like to
improve my baseline total testosterone from the 5 to 700
that it normally is simply by eating or not eating more, but
I'm excited about that too. But sleeping more and being less
stressed, I feel like sleep is always the 1st to go for me and
I never get like the recommended 8 hours sleep.
I just listened to speaking to Huberman earlier.
I was listening to his podcast with Matt Walker and yeah, I'm
definitely not getting their recommended dose of sleep.
Yes, sleep is such an underappreciated marker.
Well, not even marker, but a tool for health like I that is
one thing I will I'll pass up training before I pass up sleep.
That's how important I I view it.
At least how how many hours you average night. 7, 1/2 to 8 nice
and you feel like. Do you feel markedly different
if you get like 5-6 hours? Yeah, unfortunately, I'm one of
I I know people who can. They thrive on five hours, but
I've learned over the years that I'm not that guy, unfortunately.
So I do have to spend a little more time sleeping.
But it for me, like if I compare to five hours a night to 8 hours
a night, it's night and day. It's completely different.
Yeah, I I feel like 1,000,000 bucks if I get 6, but if I get
less than six, I can definitely feel the difference.
But I think like I only ever get six, You know, if I was to
ensure that I'm getting, you know, 7 to 8 even on a regular
basis, I feel like that would make a massive difference in my
hormone levels for sure. Yeah.
And then just overall how how you feel like it experimenting
in that 6 to 8 range, I definitely feel like most people
should at least try to get that most nights of the week, but.
If you're feeling good on 6 and it's working, then it possibly
not. But at least I would try to
experiment and see what happens. We need to do another podcast
after February once you've had the child.
And then I'll ask you what you're doing to maintain those
seven or eight hours of sleep. Because I have a feeling that
you'll be very, you know, strict on maintaining that quarter
sleep because you know how important it is and you're
you're, you sacrifice training over sleep.
So I'm going to be curious to see how you, how you manage
that? Yeah, that that number for the
first couple months is definitely going to be cut in
half, I can guarantee you that. Yeah, for sure.
Do you do any specific, like you ever use those like the Eight
Sleep Mattress ponds or anything?
No, but I definitely want to try that because like especially for
me, like temperature when I'm going to bed is extremely
important, like I need 69 degrees or 68 degrees to sleep
optimally and that's I've I've experimented with that through
like the the Aura ring and different wearables, but.
Definitely like the I I do want to try the the mattresses that
cool you. Yeah, I definitely want to get
one of those thermal regulation mattresses.
Interestingly enough, since I've been deeper into prep here
lately, I've been sleeping in a separate room than my wife.
Not because of the lack of libido, but because I'm trying
to increase my sleep quality because like our son, like,
he'll start off in his own bed and then she'll bring him into
the bed. And like I I just wake up when I
feel other people moving or noises.
So I've been trying to optimize the quality of the sleep because
the quantity is so low. So I've been sleeping in the
guest bedroom here lately with these last few weeks of prep,
and my OR data shot up in quality of sleep simply from
sleeping by myself. So most people could have a hard
time convincing their spouse to be on board with that.
But she's been super supportive for the prep itself, and that's
been interesting sleep data, to say the least.
I noticed the same thing when my wife first became pregnant.
She was extremely sick basically every evening.
So we did the sleeping in separate bedrooms and that did
improve my quality of sleep. So I'm we're going to have to
figure something out. I want to get a one of those
Wyoming Kings that are like 10 foot by 10 foot.
Yeah, yeah, something like that. Or we even thought about going
old school and like having the, you know, sleeping in the same
room but having the separate mattresses like they did back in
the 40s, you know? I know, I know, multiple people
who do that and they say it, it's.
Good. So, like I, I, I might have to
convince the wife. Yeah, Yeah, once.
Once you feel the difference that better sleep brings you,
it's hard not to want to capitalize on it, you know, even
if it means not snuggling up with your wife.
Yeah, like quality sleep. It's besides like exercise.
Like sleep is a very close second, possibly even more like
because. Sleep.
If you you will die without sleep.
Like you, you can't pass that up.
And then just the the quality and quantity are both extremely
important. Yeah, 100%.
So go back to the testosterone or the sex hormones in general
in the muscle tissue. So what are you looking for
there and what what kind of data are you getting?
So what we have been doing in or doing currently we're either
manipulating the. Sex steroid receptor, so like
estrogen receptor alpha or the androgen receptor and either we
can over express the receptor or delete the receptor and we're
trying to understand like the role that those play in skeletal
muscle. And then one of our recent
publications that just came out a couple months ago was we over
expressed aromatase in the skeletal muscle.
So that led to increased estrogen in the skeletal muscle
and circulating estrogen and it actually caused anabolism or
skeletal muscle hypertrophy. The muscles were significantly
bigger with increased estrogen in the muscle.
So that's one of the current projects we're working on.
Like why? Why is that muscle
hypertrophying essentially Now with that you could also run the
risk of other things experiencing some hypertrophic,
you know, affect like cancer cell growth for instance as
well, like when you increase the estrogen to that degree, it's
not really going to be specific to just the muscle tissue,
correct? Yep, exactly like one of these
mice actually suffer from bladder outlet obstruction
syndrome where the smooth, the smooth tissue or epithelial
tissue in the urethra grows and they can't urinate as well.
But yeah, like the overall goal of our lab and like our
projects. May like figure out optimal
hormone replacement therapy especially for females that's
where majority of our research is focused on.
But also once we get to the point where we can drug the
androgen or estrogen receptors in skeletal muscle tissue
specifically without having off target like off target effects
that would be where like the ideal long term projects would
lead to and what what, what mechanism are you using to
increase the estrogen in the muscle tissue, Is this like via
injection or how is this getting done?
So we actually the mice have their.
This will get semi complicated but I'll try to keep it simple.
The mice have their genomes edited so they carry trans genes
and when we give an antibiotic, like a low dose antibiotic in
the water, it allows us to over express or delete.
Different genes which encode for different receptors in the
muscle. So this is all through
transgenic, but we also do like transgenic animal models, but we
also do just like global hormone replacement therapy and estrogen
replacement therapy. So if this were to become
efficacious in the human population, how would this be
administered at scale there in your opinion?
Long way off there, but similar to.
Like it's what tharm are you feeling me familiar with SARMS
essentially yeah. It's what SARMS are are looking
to be like what the problem with SARMS is they're the reason one
of the reasons they were they didn't pass FDA was they did
they improved muscle size but didn't improve muscle function.
Obviously that can be confounded because in cancer patients like
they weren't, they potentially weren't exercising but being
able to just target the muscle without the off target effects.
It's extremely hard especially for skeletal muscle tissue.
But like for SARMS, like if you chronically take too high of a
dose of a Sarum or for example, you will get pituitary and
hypothalamic shutdown, so you will crash endogenous
production. So just getting to the point
where we can specifically target the muscle that that would be
the goal similar to like how PCSK 9 inhibitors when you give
that drug like through subcutaneous injection it only
can target. They deliver.
So kind of getting to the point where we can do that muscle, but
we're a long ways off from there, but that would that would
be the long term goal. When it comes to to HRT in
females specifically, there seems to be a myriad of
different delivery vehicles you've got like the pellets,
you've got the patches, you've got the injections, you've got
the creams like what is the the best delivery vehicle.
I'm assuming it's probably going to be somewhat individual
dependent, but it's things with a lot of these compounding
agents. There's just a massive room for
inaccuracies and and just too many variables.
Yeah. And that that is the number one
question we're trying to answer, figuring out the routed delivery
that is best because obviously, like you said, there's something
like transdermal creams. There's like a vaginal
application of estradiol, there's the pills, there's the
injections, there's the pellets. Based off what I currently see
the the pellets are one potentially.
Not a great option just due to the levels wildly fluctuate when
you first when you first administer the pellet, the
levels shoot up super physiological high and then stay
high and then even at the time of replacement the physiological
levels in some studies have reported reported being two to
three times higher than what natural endogenous levels are.
So I'm personally not a fan of that method, but the transdermal
patches that that probably. In my opinion, right now it has
pretty good data, especially because you can manipulate the
patch by application duration, potentially the size of the
patch etcetera. And the frequency I think would
be key too because I have a lot of these guys that are getting
TRT done, like they'll go in and they'll get, they'll get a a
massive bolus injection, but then they're not going for
another four to six weeks. So everything peaks you know
early on and then they just kind of it dies off.
So in fact, a lot of guys have been doing, you know, weekly or
biweekly or like every Wednesday or something, taking a smaller
dose so they can kind of maintain more reasonable
physiological levels. Yeah, that every six to eight
weeks I think is absolutely horrific.
Should not be done clinically. What seems to be ideal right now
would I prefer? Well, in my opinion I prefer the
twice a week, even the even the once a week you can have issues
but the twice a week? You can get more stable levels,
especially if you do it subcutaneously in the adipose
tissue you get a more steady release instead of
intramuscularly. But there's been interesting
data ongoing, even more frequent and then some have shown that
like you get less shut down natural and production based on
frequency but also like some of the newer methods of
administration such as nasally so like there's there's some
interesting data but. Right now if you're doing
injection wise, I think the twice a week is probably the the
Goldilocks for most people and a lot of these companies are
getting pretty savvy with how they're, they're reducing the
barrier to entry to making that transdermal injection pretty,
pretty streamlined like it's like a little EpiPen almost
right. Yep, a lot of them are
preloaded. But one of the issues with the
preloaded you're it's hard really hard to adjust the dose,
the 11 benefit, withdrawing it up yourself and injecting which
obviously is a barrier to entry for some patients.
But the the biggest thing I think the pro would be you can
adjust because 80 to 100 megs of one person divided twice a week
is going to be completely different than the the next
person. Gotcha.
Apart from the obvious, you know, fundamental stuff like
proper sleep training, proper nutrition, are there any, you
know, supplemental routes that people can take that are pretty
good bang for the buck as far as naturally increase increasing
their their physiological levels?
Yeah, I naturally I I'm not really pro any of the the.
Popular ones that are advertised boron potentially has some
efficacious use but all the other the other ones that are
often touted for efficacy, I'm I'm not really a huge fan of I,
I try to put majority of your effort into the lifestyle
modifications. Yeah, there's a big push right
now or there was like a few months back about that
trikesterone the, the plant based steroids, but I don't
think any of the data shook out on that one.
Yeah, that one. And then there's two other plant
ones that are often touted. But I I've, I experimented.
I can't remember off the names off the top of my head, but I
did experiment with them, but I did not find that they were that
great. Yeah, I mean, I think anybody
that's reaching for those prior to just simply getting ample
sleep and training and getting all the crap out of their diet
is barking up the wrong tree. Yeah, if you can lose some
excess adiposity and sleep better you're you're going to
improve hormone production 100%. So when it comes to like
timelines with regards to the research that you're doing and
hopefully seeing it play out in human models, what what do you
think we're looking at time frame wise?
Oh, that. That'd be very hard to guess,
but probably the the one that we could probably get to human
quickest is just. Expanding the knowledge on
hormone replacement therapy because like like you said, it
is the Wild West and having people truly appreciate the the
details of it and like the intricacies of what can happen
like that, That a huge effort needs to be put there because
the popular study in the early 2000s, the Women's Health
Initiative, it kind of set back the field for years.
Hundreds of thousands of women were probably deprived of
Estraderan hormone replacement therapy that shouldn't have
been. But we really need to figure out
the the method of delivery with establishing the the proper
levels because it different clinics and different methods of
delivery just produce widely different results.
Is there any particular resource that you would recommend people
go to that are wanting to dive deeper into this but they can
trust? Because this is definitely a
topic that the masses are ignorant on.
I mean like so many guys are like, I just want to get more
testosterone, I want to minimize my estrogen, whereas in fact you
don't want to necessarily minimize your estrogen.
Like everything is interconnected and all hormones
are, you know, pretty much interlinked.
Like you can't really just change one and expect it not to
have a profound impact on the others.
Yeah, unfortunately I don't have a great recommendation, but just
having people just kind of understand the the.
Any Physiology behind it like that you got you got to look at
the big picture like you said like I I personally want my
estrogen levels as high as I can get them without having any
symptoms negative symptoms with having too high of an estrogen.
But like the you have to appreciate the whole system.
You can't just pull on one lever and expect that's the only thing
that happens. Like you give TRT, you got to
realize what you're going to do to fertility and long term
production. Like you got, you got to look at
all the. Pros and cons and what's going
to happen? Like, it's not just do this one
thing and everything's fixed. Yeah, there's no no shortcuts,
no quick fixes, no no gimmies or hacks with anything.
Yeah, you just you got to people love the major in the minors.
But we need to take a step back and look, look at the the big
picture that that that's really what is going to make the the
biggest difference. Focus on nutrition focused on
sleep. Focus on minimizing excess
stress and just physical activity.
Like if you're going to take like a couple things to focus
on, it would definitely be those everybody's worried about, like
what supplement should I take, what exercise should I do.
But just focusing on the big picture things is what's going
to drive the the the biggest outcomes.
We were talking about one thing to touch on majoring in the
minors before we hit the record button.
Is there like, do you think that is more prominent now more so
than ever? And if so, like what is it that
you think is driving this mentality of majoring in the
minors? Is it because there's just this
massive influx in very granular detail, specific information
that people are getting inundated with, or or what's?
What's going on there? I definitely think it's a little
bit of that and then also a lot of people are.
I at least I've seen on social media a lot of people try to
demonize items or ingredients and like this is bad, this is
good. But like you can't look at
nutrition or exercise like that way that there is no there's no
good or bad there will be better and worse.
But like in things we should focus on, but like a lot of
people like for example like one of the recent ones that
aspartame was reclassified as a Class 2B carcinogen, but what
also is in that class Aloe Vera lotion.
Cell phone use in class one above that, which would be like
like class 2B. Like basically it's potentially
carcinogenic, but smoked meat is Class 1, alcohol is Class 1,
sunbathing is Class 1. So it's like you got to look at
the big picture. Like am I going to be upset that
I have a Diet Coke once in a while?
No, but it I'm definitely not going to be consuming 3 to 5 a
day, but like. People love to just like the
people walking in grocery stores and making the viral videos like
in reading off ingredient list. Like there this this one
ingredient in this one food that you may have once a week is your
you will never notice an effect there.
Like focus on the big picture, eat high quality food, sleep,
exercise. They just focus on the basics.
Don't be focusing on one single ingredient that's driving all
disease in America like some people make it out to be.
Yeah, it's kind of weird, man. Like for me as a, you know,
quote UN quote influencer and someone in the space talking
about nutrition, it's like when I distill my core beliefs down
to its simplest form. It's really comically simple.
Eat good quality food. Move your body, sleep more, love
life. Like it.
It's it's it's like I almost feel guilty for coaching people,
but like so many people and I can get like crazy specific and
tweaking electrolytes and weighing out salt and
macronutrient manipulations. Like, I can get as granular as
people want to get. But but so many people have a
hard time just simply embracing the basics and majoring in the
minors to the point where they just become chronically stressed
and paralyzed by making any positive momentum because
they're just inundated with all this misinformation or
information that's, you know, sensationalized.
And I don't understand why that's the case.
Like, where is the common sense these days?
It's it. I think that's like one of the
biggest issues like we we are in a period of like information is
extremely accessible, but a lot of the information out there is
just garbage like you said, like if you if everybody focused on
eating high quality food, moving more, sleeping.
Loving life, minimizing stress like everybody be healthier.
You don't have to you don't have to get super specific with
certain for like looking at the big picture obviously like if
we're peaking for a bodybuilding show we're trying to maximize
hypertrophy then we're going to get into electrolytes, protein a
timing of everything etcetera. But like for most people, they
just you have to nail the basics.
If you're you're stepping over. The basics and then just trying
to focus on like these minute things that are not making any
difference in the long term. Yeah, 100% man, 100%.
Well, let me ask you this, man, to round out things.
What are you excited about going forward?
I know you get your dissertation.
You said next Tuesday, is that right?
No, actually in two days, Wednesday.
In two days, 2 days, and then you've got a baby on the way in
February. So those are two massive things.
I would definitely be excited for those two.
But what? What beyond that, man?
Well, I'll be taking a postdoctoral research job.
So I'll be doing some more. I'll be doing a little more
Cancer Research going forward. So looking forward to that.
But from what's on the horizon basically in like the health
field, I think a lot of like wearable technology that's
coming out in the next 5 to 10 years, It's going to be
extremely valuable for people. I'm, I'm quite excited about
that. And then also some of the
longevity data that there's going to be some interesting
studies in the next 5 to 10 years like those those would be
long my long term outlooks that I'm looking forward to and then
for myself look looking forward to becoming a dad.
That's that's about it. Well, that that's the best man
as far as the wearable data goes.
Is there like a specific device or measurement that you're
hopeful to see and implement soon?
I so I've experimented with continuous glucose monitors, a
continuous ketone monitor. I did use that a little bit.
That was interesting. It definitely has some work to
do, but it was an interesting like startup company.
I believe it was China. But a continuous lactate
monitor? That'd be really interesting for
fine tuning exercise and and surprisingly it's also it's also
like an important metric for metabolic health like if you are
metabolically unhealthy, you're going to have an elevated
fasting lactate. So like knowing that during
exercise I could really play play around with looking at like
anaerobic threshold and Zone 2 training.
So like I'm really excited for the day we get the the lactate
monitor and I do believe it's on the horizon.
I have. I've heard rumors.
Yeah, I would love to play around with that.
I would love to have a continuous cortisol monitor.
I think that would be super interesting.
That would also be interesting. And then cuz measuring cortisol
is just not easy. You can do it in the urine and
saliva, but like it's difficult to get A levels over time, so
like if somebody could come out with a continuous measurement of
that, that'd be extremely extremely useful.
That would be interesting to have.
You know, attached to your wife as she's going through these
first few months postpartum. I feel like that would be
interesting. Interesting data.
Oh yeah, yeah. I I, I would love to take blood
work and run run the mascot, you know just get get all the
hormone levels and all the changes because that that's just
an interesting time. Yeah, time frame there.
For sure, man. Well, Christian Brother, I am
super excited to be reconnecting with you.
I'm stoked for your baby on the way.
I definitely, let's definitely talk sooner than.
We have with between podcasts this last go around here, I mean
2019 and now it's just far, far too long because you're always
doing something interesting that I'm excited to learn more about.
But I'm stoked for you to have your baby.
It really is the best thing in the world, man.
Like I I have no doubt that you're just going to soak it up,
brother. Nope.
Thank you for having me, Robert. Looking forward to it.
And yeah, I'll definitely over the next six months to a year,
I'd love to come back because we'll definitely have some
interesting data regarding nutrition, cancer and
metabolism. 100% man Well, what? Where's the best place people
can go to Follow along and make sure they're in your in your
world right now just Instagram just I believe it's Christian
Unger 1/3 on Instagram. Just that.
That's my main social media. Perfect.
Well, I will certainly tag that linking in the the show notes.
Make it easy for people to find you.
And brother, if there's everything I can do to help you
in any way, man, you let me know.
I'm always there for you. Yes, Sir.
Sounds good. Thank you, man.
Take care, bud. Bye, you too.