Hello, ladies and gents Robert Sykes, keto Savage.com.
Today I would get special guest. Stephen Thomas on the line,
Stephen is a carnivore coach. He's been at it for quite some
time, he's also a trained phlebotomist so we dive deep
into blood work and various land panels and what those could
possibly mean for your health. But also talk about symptoms and
just honestly how to dial in a species appropriate diet to make
the most of it. We dive deep into some of the
science on this. So grab a pen, grab some paper,
take some notes and see what you can learn.
I took a lot from it. I've got no doubt that you will
as well. So that further Ado, sit back
relax and do a podcast with Steven Thomas.
We are live. Steven, how are you sir?
I'm very well and really excited to do this.
Robert. Yeah, I'm excited to chat with
you so we can as we were discussing before hit record a,
you know, very little about me. I know very little about you.
One of my clients, I forget which one it was reached out to
me and they said that they'd gotten some blood work done by
you and kind of had you analyze, their blood work.
So I just proved online found your profile, like will shoot,
this guy knows what he's talking about.
He's been the carnivore space for quite some time.
I was going to bring him on the podcast and that is where we
Inner self today. Yeah.
And and I will reciprocate this because you approach me.
And I'd already heard of you from clients that were singing
your Praises. So, I just said, yes, without
even checking you out. So I trust my clients.
Well, I'm certainly glad to hear.
They've been saying good things. So yeah, give me some backstory,
man. Like, how long have you been
doing carnivore? Right.
Okay. Well, if I can give you a bit
more back story, after I've told you, it's a three and a half
years. So when I turned 55, I decided
to go Carnival because I was doing keto before that, I know
your name is Kita Savage. And I did that for a good couple
years and low-carb from my 50th birthday, because everything was
going south before, that one of the things that have been
pointed out, to me on numerous occasions is most People come to
low, carb, keto, and Carnival, they've been eating rubbish and
they've been doing all the wrong things.
And their health has deteriorated, whereas I was not
that story, I'm completely different story because I did
everything. Allegedly correct, I followed
all the guidelines. I didn't have any fat.
I was a non-smoking non-drinking, Semi-Pro soccer
player. When I started, I did a
bodybuilding tournament. I've won a singles, tennis
tournament. Which is not bragging.
By the way, is trying to give people a little bit of context
here and in my 40s. Sadly this is not video.
I've got a lot of medals for running for Middle distance
running. So by the time I was 50, I
should have been really fit. I should have been able to see
my apps. I shouldn't be pre-diabetic, I
shouldn't be getting Tapia. I shouldn't have lower left,
quadrant pain, I shouldn't need colonoscopies, I shouldn't have
a coronary artery calcium scan of 639.
So I knew because I wasn't doing anything.
Is that the mainstream cause deleterious to your health.
There must be something that's not quite right?
So in at that time, what was your night looking like?
What when I was high carb, was yeah.
Like the start, it was, it was the classic skim, milk oatmeal
in the morning fruit and freshly squeezed orange juice and lean
protein. If I did have any meat, it would
be, you know, very lean, chicken breasts.
Very unoriginal, rice rice cakes, all that, sort of things,
protein, shakes, all the, all the things that we allegedly
should, And sorry. If I'm upsetting you because I
know you got the key to thing, but, you know, it was, it was
healthy ish food in, you know, allegedly.
But it wasn't for me. I certainly didn't work for me
and in my faulty as I took my personal training certificate.
Bit further. I trained an Olympic Athlete was
really seriously into it, and I wanted to get into a piece of
tea and diabetes as I specialism, which I now have
that and had that front. I'm the specialist practitioner
status here in the UK. Okay, and it was doing the
diabetes course that I started to realize and I'm going to
actually put a little bracket in here or a you know a little
section where I'll say it wasn't the course that taught me
carbohydrates are problematic. It was the content of the course
that made a light bulb go off in my head because they constantly,
you know, we had to learn about all the medications and the, you
know, contraindications and what to do.
If someone has a problem with their training on these meds,
and everything was about car, Hydrates.
And I just kept putting my hand up in class and saying, why
don't we just cut the carbohydrates?
Is they seem to be problematic, you seem to medicate in relation
to carbohydrates all the time. But obviously that's not what
the course was about. The course was about being able
to talk to an allopathic doctor for them to refer and keep on
the medications which is ever enough, that's the rules of the
game. So, that's that's I understood
that. But I realized for me, I became
pre-diabetic. And as you did mention, the
Bloods also qualified. It's a The bottom is so the NHS
I could have gone into the NHS hospitals.
I went down the private blood work Avenue where the blood
would be sent off to a lab have a doctor's comments, and that's
how I learn. I was pre-diabetic, which wasn't
a surprise because I'd joined the dots basically.
And realize that what I was doing was the perfect recipe
according to the mainstream media to be really healthy, but
actually was not the right recipe.
So I did the local. Sorry, it's a long answer to the
guys out there listening but you know it was it was an
interesting Journey for me because I tried low carb 50.
It was really surprised at how quick the tub Enos around, my
waist went a lot of water weight left me and I know that's pretty
obvious for most people to understand this way of eating,
but other things just cleared up.
I didn't Little Nicky things. I have not had athlete's foot
since my 20s and I tried all the acids and duct tape and doing
this and doing that. And Urinating on me in the
shower, every sort of old wives tale and all the medical stuff,
and as soon as I went low carb that cleared up.
I had a rash on my face, that would come up in times of
stress. People might say, I'm not
stressed now, because because of the way he eats but that that
rash doesn't come up, the lower left quadrant pain went.
I mean I've not been to the doctors for as long as I can
remember. And literally eight years, nine
years, something like that. I've not had I'm not a problem
at all. No medications, nothing, no
painkillers. Nothing at all.
And the more I have reduced the carbohydrates.
The fitter I've felt training is another thing at age, 57.
And remember, I've done a bodybuilding tournament in my
twenties age 57. I gained more muscle in one year
that I'd ever gained and that was on Carnivore and the other
thing that ties into the blood, sorry, Robert long answer.
The other thing, it ties into the Bloods and list I find a
stunning To this day was my testosterone went up as soon as
I started carnivore within three months, he had gone up 30% with
no artificial, no juicy nothing. Nothing at all other than just
eating meat and continuing to work out.
So so yeah. Short answer is three and a half
years. I can't see myself ever turning
back. It's delicious.
Its nutritious. It's a really interesting way, I
more variety now than I've ever. Eaten in my life.
Because when I was doing the high carb stuff, it was
literally porridge, we call it here, you call it oatmeal.
Every single morning, skim milk honey, you know, fruit freshly
squeezed? Orange juice, always, and I
thought I was doing the right thing, low fat, yogurts protein,
shakes everything, before I trained, I just feel for it.
All, absolutely feel for all. So, when you, when you switch to
low carb, you started noticing, you know, pretty significant
benefits right off the ban and Then you just progressively took
the carbs lower and lower and lower.
Because I would assume that there in the beginning you
weren't really pursuing a state of ketosis necessarily just drop
the carbs down pretty low. So we're you doing low-carbon
then that progressed to Quito and then from there straight up
carnivore. Yeah yeah and I think that's a
journey. A lot of people do and strangely
enough in a parallel parallel universe watching dr.
Ken Berry all of his changes and it wasn't because of him.
I've only realized now in hindsight, I remember watching
him and laughing at one of his videos because he was
continually saying, Eat Your Greens.
Eat Your Greens and I was at the point where I think and I don't
think that's right. Actually I don't think I need to
eat my greens and then he started to go carnivore.
So when I was Ingram with it. So it was it was never about
ketosis. It still?
Isn't I understand why? People get hung up on being in
ketosis but you don't have to be in ketosis to burn fat, you just
have to have low insulin, which is one of the things that
happens. You get ketosis sometimes when
you're in a low insulin state, but I'm not knocking ketosis.
Certainly therapeutic. Ketosis has a huge part to play
in some major developments in. One's health or improvements, I
should say. So that was never never it for
me. I did do it for things on my
YouTube channel. You know?
I did some experiments did some live experiments in the steak
and butter gang last year where I was doing my glucose and my
ketones. But that actually just pretty
much nailed that you don't have to be in ketosis to lose weight
because I wasn't in ketosis. Very much.
Yeah I deliberately put on weight for the experiment but
over the three months where I lost 27, Pounds.
I'm not you know I wasn't I'd be so I put that on deliberately
then took it off just to prove that you don't have to be in
ketosis and you don't have to fast to lose that amount of
weight. As long as you're looking at
what you are eating, you should be, you should be back to the
body composition that you want to be which yeah, which
happened. No, I totally agree.
I feel like people definitely get hung up on what their Ketone
readings are on a meter and I It's a carnivore like a subset
of Quito. That's I mean, there's kind of
some new ones there because if you're not registering ketones
and technically you're not in ketosis but if you feel great on
Carnivore, you're obviously deriving that energy from fat
and ketones and not carbs and glucose maybe gluconeogenesis to
an extent, but I feel like if you are thriving on Carnivore,
you are certainly fat adapted. Yes, and I say I would say,
yeah, it's a subset of the ketogenic diet because there's
many different forms of the ketogenic diet in the end.
It's to me, it's actually even more simple than that, Robert,
it's just about keeping your insulin low.
Yeah, one of my medical textbooks, which I always
celebrate people who want to re decent physiology is the
guyton's medical physiology textbook and I actually use that
with PT clients for personal training clients and when Come
in and say, I want to exercise to lose weight and I say Warhol,
let's talk about nutrition first, and they don't want to, I
say to them. Look my livelihood.
Is you working out and I might now show you a book that talks
you out of working out. Okay.
So I'm thinking of you, not me, not my pocket, not my bank
account and I show them a couple of pages from there which talks
about how low levels of insulin enhance fat metabolism and also
the flip of that obviously. We that in high levels of
insulin that metabolism is Switched Off, and I say, if you
want to lose weight, that's the first thing you need to look at
is you nutrition? And I know it's call me, you
know, abs are made in the kitchen.
Absolutely true. I never take anybody on to
exercise who wants to do weight loss, the exercise for weight
loss. Without talking about the
nutrition. Doesn't mean, I Falls carnivore
on them, but I do definitely say to them.
You do need to think about your health, what you're eating and
your longevity. And then we can talk about body
composition because I'm not going to have you looking
slightly better. But going out and eating all the
wrong Foods because it's not sustainable.
There's a big possibility that once you stop the working out,
if it's not a doesn't become a habit, which is a huge huge part
of what I tried to get into is you replace bad habits, good
habits. So, it's not even about
willpower or or getting yourself off the couch.
It's because you like doing it. You like you like, eating this
way? So you do it, you're like
training this way so you do it. You don't feel like it's forced
and he gets just a it's nice to see the penny drop and people do
listen, I don't really get much pushback when I say about the
nutrition doesn't mean everyone goes carnivore but they
certainly go low carb and then it's that rabbit hole that
possibly with with your neighbors keto Savage.
I'm assuming a lot of your listeners know.
This Rabbit Hole, you start to reduce carbs and you think,
well, let's just try. A bit of Kita.
Let's try that. See what happens and then you
realize that there's certain carbohydrates may be a tripping
you up and take them out. So yeah, it's been great.
There's definitely like you having competed in bodybuilding
yourself on the past and me as well.
Like there's it's obvious that people can reach a great
composition physically with a variety of dance, like a lot of
these competitors that are, you know, 45 percent body fat on
stage. Look, Amazing.
But as you can attest, they feel horrendous.
They have no energy, their hormones are tank, their blood
markers are, you know, catastrophic like they're not
the picture of Health by any means.
So I think being able to achieve the compositional desired look
that you want. But doing so through a well
formulated diet that is sustainable and does check on
the boxes from a health standpoint.
So it certainly be the priority Yeah, absolutely.
And I would say the light is start been since since my 20s
was in the ketogenic parts of my life.
But when I look at the photographs of myself, I don't
feel I look particularly healthy.
That's also when I was running at, you know, pretty good pace
and doing middle distance, and half marathons, those sort of
things. But I look at my face and I
think, wow, people are right, I was gaunt, you know, I wasn't
healthy. I mean, I'm looking at your face
on this recording here. You know, I don't know how old
you up, but you look very healthy.
I feel like 58. You know, if people want to
check me out my YouTube channel, I feel, I don't look 58.
Yeah, I don't feel 58. And I think how you
aesthetically look is secondary. I understand why people want it.
I want it to you. Don't do a bodybuilding show.
If you're not interested in trying to get your physique to
look pretty awesome. But, you know, if I could have
Have if I could go back in time now in and do a back to the
future. So I think I would be screaming
at my 20 year, old self change. How you eat because actually,
everything's going to be better for you in your future.
Yes, you look great. And I know it's hard for you to
believe me but it will catch up on you and I'm going to just
change how you eat. But I can remember, actually,
flicking through a magazine. You might have heard of it
muscle and fitness. I don't know if it's still
around and flicking through and seeing Sonny Liston or a couple
of the body builders of Era. I am showing my age now.
Shawn Ray they were talking about high-fat diets and I can
remember dismissing it as a possibility.
Completely without even reading the article thinking that I can
remember just sort of well that's not going to work.
Yeah, so it was obviously around at some point through my 20s and
I think that was when acting sort of started, but at that
just totally just went over my forehead.
You know, I didn't notice it and didn't really take it into
consideration as a Way of eating.
Well, let's have an insulin for a because I like your definition
being you're keeping that the primary goal to be keeping
insulin low. And it's funny because like in
the bodybuilding space that we're talking about here, there
are certain Pro bodybuilders that will use exotic has insulin
as a growth factor to try and, you know, put on more lean
tissue because it is a growth agent for sure.
Yes. But it can be very dangerous.
Like many of them have died trying to increase their insulin
to Super physiological. In a very unhealthy manner when
it comes to instant, like a body, obviously excretes insulin
to shut up glucose into the cell and it's a normal physiological
response and some people in the mixed dieting background.
You know flexible dieters things of that nature, they argue that
insulin is totally fine, there should be no reason to try and
keep it down regulated as long as it's within a healthy range.
Do you feel like there is benefit for healthy individuals
to still strive to keep that? Do you know shuttle down as much
as possible? Well, I think it's more about
the appropriate level of insulin.
So you, if you let your body regulate everything and you
don't put things into your body, that requires a disproportionate
and rapid response, you should be okay.
So if you I agree, obviously insulin is a growth hormone, but
it's not something that you want to be taking.
If you don't know, if you look at first, let's go to the real
basic. So in 1922 before insulin was
discovered Those that had type 1, diabetes, however, many
calories, and that's another thing we can talk about.
If you like, let's talk about the amount of food, whatever
amount of food, those type 1 diabetics, 8, they would waste
away, and then we discovered insulin, which was fantastic.
Because then we realized that there was insulin that were
shuttling, like you say, there's the energy into the cells and
stopping people wasting away. So then you go into the like,
the 50s and the 60s, and there's the big increase in Sugar
refined. Traits, you know and and then
the 80's 90's when we get into other stuff.
What's happening is the biphasic response to the pancreas is just
not evolving as quickly as the diet.
So when people are things that are food-like substances or
Coca-Cola which is 99 teaspoons of sugar which is 9 times as
much sugar as you need in your bloodstream at any one time you
need about a teaspoon in five and a half liters of blood.
What's going to happen is the insulin production Going to be
ramped up, its going to be a bit disproportionate because that's
a toxic level calling to the body.
And therefore, you get the spike of insulin, which will bring
down the blood sugar and then you get the trough, which is the
infamous of had breakfast. I had my sort of sugary fruit
juice or whatever you had. I had my oatmeal by 11:00 in the
morning. I'm starving.
And I need to eat again because what's happened is the
insolence, done? Its job a bit to efficiently and
therefore You have that low blood sugar feeling?
Yeah so it's more a is more about sort of a modulated
reasonable amount of insulin to keep your blood sugar at that,
that level of about a teaspoon in five and a half liters of
blood. So so that's that.
So, to try and answer your question, if you then decide to
use the, you know, the anabolic side of it by adjusting
injecting insulin. If you're a bodybuilder, you are
Safely training, pushing your body.
Having a lot of protein. Most bodybuilders do eat a
pretty good diet but you're still biohacking in the wrong
way. You're looking at the wrong
thing, you should be looking at your own body's regulation of
instinct rather than artificially raising it and I
know people get good results aesthetically but like you say
some people die because it's it is not a thing that you should
be playing with and there's there is more to blood sugar
regulation than insulin. This is the other thing when
people to about Diabetes don't talk about it in enough depth.
If you in introduce blood glucose directly into the vein,
you won't get the same insulin response.
He certainly won't get such a big insulin response as if you
eat something that has contains the same amount of glucose
because in Cretin hormones, which are sort of on the brush
will order of the small intestine which talk to the
pancreas. They really help to regulate the
amount of insulin you need. So your your that I mean, that's
been proven, that's not controversial.
Tool. That's in clinical studies.
We know that the brush border and increase in creating
hormones, make a huge difference to the regulation of blood sugar
because it's a little bit nuanced, fits very difficult for
the big influences to talk about it.
I think they think people will switch off, but definitely,
there's a big difference between eating and glucose going through
the digestive system than there is through sort of injecting
anything. So once you start to Inject with
inside with insulin, what's going to happen?
There is you're going to get this dish report,
disproportionate amount of energy going into the cells.
I mean, I've never never answered this question before.
So I'm going through in my mind now but it is disproportionate
to your going to have some dysregulation going on because
you still get feedback from the cells to say, well, you know,
we're sorry to be Layman's about this, but the cells will give
you feedback. I mean, this is, this is when
you get into the exercise physiology and you start to look
at the glute for translocating, from the cytoplasm to the to the
membrane. There is a huge amount of
signaling and response to what you're doing all the time within
the cell and obviously outside of the cell.
So, once you start to change the hormone of signaling
artificially to me, that that that's just going to be a mess
in the future. Yeah, I understand it as a bio
hacking and I totally get why people do it because you know,
the one percent difference that gets On the podium I understand
you know in the state's, no pun intended, a high but in the end
I'm going to go back to health. You see?
I still feel that that health is the bill one end or whether
everything if you eat the appropriate way and train the
appropriate way your body will respond.
So I was really lucky because when I trained and I just a boy
from Gravesend who happen to be in a gym that was full of really
very good. Oil or semi professional
bodybuilders. It was just pure luck.
It was in a sort of back alley, alley place, you know, behind a
shop and my training partner who I didn't know it was a big week
went on to be a mister Natural England, you know.
So I was training with all the right people and my training
partner was 100% natural, very clean when you know, to the
point of being pretty boring with his diet and he was cut all
year round, whose massive really strong Very healthy.
And we because we had guys there that were juicing and and they
were bigger, they were bigger, but they were injured a lot.
They, you know, started to the longer.
We went to the gym, the more we realize that that it wasn't the
answer and it's really tempting to start to to look at
artificial ways of boosting your performance.
Totally get that but you know it's never been for me but I
certainly you know what? I'm Doing some of the Bloods,
you know, of bodybuilders come in, and they're a bit sheepish,
it first and they say it. My testosterone readings might
be a little bit high. And I'm like, yes, okay.
I get what you're saying and we can make the note of that.
It's not a big problem so then it goes off to the lab and you
will get doctors comments so it's not accepted but it's it's
understood that this does happen, we need to factor in so
sorry Robert has a very long answer, I hope actually answered
the question yet. It's really interesting.
So got my mind working. But yeah.
So keeping insulin to an appropriate level I think is the
is this the key to to everything but we know high levels of
insulin will shut off fat metabolism.
Now if your lean body builder, obviously that's not a big issue
because you haven't got sub containers fat that you want to
burn. So shutting it off, doesn't
matter. Does it because you're lean.
So you will get Get all of the anabolic effects and not have to
worry about the fat burning, but I think if you're trying to cut,
you know, the obviously that's gonna be a problem.
Yeah, I would think that, you know, appropriate levels of
insulin secretion if you were to compare, you know what, the
average insulin level is now to the standard demographic of
people versus what it was 500 years ago before all of the
sugar processed foods came to the market.
I mean, I would imagine that we are taxing.
In our systems, much more extensively.
Now with just the sheer amount of carbohydrates.
Simple carbohydrates, coming in. And if you were to rewind the
clock 500 years, we would never really be at that consumption of
carbohydrates. I mean, from a physiological
standpoint, I can't imagine that it makes sense for anybody to
need that many carbohydrates. I'm you've got people that are
not active at all walking around a consuming 500 + grams of
carbohydrates a day and Knots burning those off which is just
going to wreak havoc Downstream. Yes, the non-essential.
I mean a lot of the ways of talking about carbohydrates is
that you need carbohydrates to body build.
But that is only true in the fact that we make the
carbohydrate, we need from non carbohydrates, substrate.
So the liver will do it demand-driven.
You do not need to ingest them, but I also would say people that
use a blood glucose monitor for instance, and I do do this in a
couple of videos. Leo's.
Actually I show from the blood that we have historical data of
certain patients where you look at their bloods and it's we're
lucky to have it from Back to the 1970s and you look at their
fasting insulin and you look at their blood glucose and what you
can establish is that among this cohort that in the 1970s 80's
90's their blood glucose was average, you know is it was
within range and they were probably thinking this is
hunky-dory but in the Ground. Their fasting insulin was
shooting up so you could have predicted that they were going
to become diabetic. If if at the point of every
single time they did a blood glucose monitor reading, they
also did a fasted insulin or an insulin reading.
We could have seen and said to those people.
Yeah, you think you're okay because you're looking at your
blood glucose, but actually, when we look at your levels of
insulin they are just going through the roof.
So at some point and it's in, it's shown in the The graph
quite you know, I'm quite proud of the growth of produced
because it's like an animation is there's a Tipping Point where
that insulin production just can't keep up anymore and it
starts to drop. And it's at that point that the
blood glucose management goes out of the window.
And that's at the point where most people are diagnosed as a
wall, you've got a diabetic problem.
But actually that was 20 years in the making that's not rocket
science. I think that's pretty much.
Now everybody would accept that that's really what's been
happening. And you know I get little
pushback saying you're demonizing carbs and I said,
well I'm not really I'm just talking about what science
estriol. There's no way you take the
glucose tolerance test for instance and I have clients say
no, my doctor said I failed it and I said, well, there's no way
or in nature. You would have had 15 teaspoons
of glucose in a drink. Yeah, you haven't failed.
It actually your body has come through with shining you know.
We're flying colors because it's Same to you.
This is a toxic drink. Don't drink this, please,
because it's too much for my pancreas to produce insulin in
relation to. So I think everything's very
messed up at the moment because the way we look at glucose
testing and the way you know I've just done a video about the
hba1c reading mean flawed for carnivores and there's pretty
good reasons for that and that's a theory I've been talking about
for a couple of years and it's nice to see people like been
bickman talking about it now. I'm not saying He didn't think
of that independently because again, it's something that if
you take a step back and you look at what's happening, just
to give your listeners a bit of background to that.
Because they've not heard of me before I read, Because I see a
lot of blood. I was also getting a lot of
carnivores saying my daily blood glucose readings, they show an
actual average every single day, if she's not reflected in my
hba1c which has gone up slightly.
Why is that? I think this is a worry and of
course it isn't a worry because if you Have someone that's
hemolytic, which is a, which is a person whose red blood cells,
die, too soon. You have to ignore their hba1c
because it's artificially low. So my thinking was, if your red
blood cells live longer than the average person, then you're
going to have an artificially high hba1c, that makes sense to
me. I mean, that's what happened.
So yeah, so I was saying, you know, and I've said this
publicly quite a bit if your daily blood glucose, which is
your actual blood, Comes from your blood that you are
measuring every day and you get a, an average or your
continuous. Glucose monitor gives you an
average that's better than a calculated.
Assumption of your hba1c, which is, which is just an idea in the
standard American diet or the standard, Western diet is a good
proxy it because probably the red blood cells are dying after
whatever period. The lab is using this a
calculation normally 90 days. Sometimes, it's And 20 and even
that shows as a variation in the calculation.
So I'm assuming that red blood cells are lasting longer in
people that eat other species, appropriate diet.
And that seems to be borne out by all the rubber readings,
because they're fasting. Insulin is good, the faster
glucose is good, their daily blood.
Glucose is good and yet their hba1c says it isn't, but it
makes no sense. So so you have to find a reason.
Why is that happening and that and that Was a big thing.
I've been talking about for a couple years now and like I
said, I think as a bit more accepted because I'm big person
when it comes to symptoms. I don't really believe that the
numbers should be the trump card over symptoms.
You know, another big one in, the carnival spaces, they tend
to have lower folate, but if you're not anemic in, not got
bleeding gums. And you've not got issues that
are associated with low folate. Is that a problem?
You know, and it tends not to be right.
So I think the blood in general, those ranges are normative
ranges, they're not optimal ranges.
So I think that's another way of thinking about things as well.
Is it are you out of range? Yeah.
What does that actually mean? Does that mean that there's
something wrong or does it mean that you're operating on a
different parameter to the rest of the people that have given
blood? Because 80 Send people that give
blood and their bloods end up in these normative ranges are not.
Well, you know, so we're looking at these ranges from a cohort of
people that aren't particularly well.
So should we be using those ranges?
I mean, they are just a yardstick and I certainly think
that you know, if you start having a subset of people that
are eating a particular way and their numbers are slightly
different, and all of them are doing well and healthy and
strong and their blood pressures coming down and their blood
glucose is being Managed and pains are go in there.
Arthritis is progressing. They're off their diabetic
medications. Well, you've got to, you've got
to look at those things rather than the numbers because these
people have been the example of fitness and health and and
reversing all these conditions. And yet you can have some blood.
Say, this doesn't look so good. So I also get into that again,
to the like the context of why certain things happen and why
they're different. Carnival obviously things like
the blood urea nitrogen because you, you're eating more protein,
you will therefore, get more nitrogen.
You'll get more urea because of that.
And that's pretty much accepted. Again, if you go online, you
won't see many influences talking about it won't see many
doctors actually talking about it, but on the nursing websites
because they're at the front end, they would always mention
high, protein intake will put your blood urea nitrogen up a
bit. They don't worry about it.
They accept that. That's, that's one of those
things that happens. I mean, obviously, you then look
at all the other kidney function, tests and liver tests
and things just to make sure there isn't anything, but most
of it is explainable with this as light anomaly in.
Most people call it the bun but it is the blood urea nitrogen
reading, you know, so the brighter fascinating I find, you
know, the doctors comments are always really interesting but
people don't just want those comments.
They want, but what does that actually mean?
What is it? Hba1c, what does what is it that
you've has actually been tested? So then you can say, what it's
actually the hemoglobin is glycated by glucose and it
sticks in your bloodstream for three months and it gives you a
rough idea of just how much collocations going on and
they're quite happy with that to have explained in some of that
layman's terms along with you, like the doctor's comment.
So how much goes how much are you typically see in those
Baseline numbers increase by in your Contour page?
Patience is at like by three or four basis points.
Well, Robert that's a really good question and I'd see so
many different readings. I mean, the biggest thing at the
moment is reversible things like thyroid conditions, where we see
T P0 + TG antibodies, just absolutely plummeting and, and
it's only possible really with people that are that have had
Bloods before. They've been carnivore for it to
be meaningful. So you got that full data set
and you can actually see Trends. But you know, All readings like
blood pressure for instance, that pretty much always goes
down. Yeah, it's too big a question
because there's so many different things that people are
interested in living rooms signs across the across the board.
I would say, you know, if I have someone that's had three sets of
Bloods done. I'm really struggling to think
of anyone that is sing - things I think with the that's but
there is a Hot Topic where some people with the TPO antibodies
problem with their thyroid, if they supplement with iodine and
I'm not saying people should stop, they just need to be aware
that sometimes the antibody start to go back up again, which
is something I'm trying to research to get to the bottom of
why that happens. There might be some very simple.
Simplistic mechanism, why that's happening?
And I'm not saying that that's a problem either.
It might just be a sort of side effect of taking the iodine and
the, the greater production of thyroid hormone just may
temporarily flip up the antibodies but yeah, I think I
think Bloods are fascinating but I know you wanted know about
them but I still go back to sort of symptoms and how good a
person feels more than the numbers.
They are interesting and they are good.
Good indicators and empirical data is is fantastic to have,
but in the end if someone comes in with a photograph of their
skin, you know, six months ago falling off which are you know,
which is you know, psoriasis or something like that and they got
beautiful glowing skin in their blood pressures down.
They got energy and they want to train and they can move.
And I'm going pains, you know, their numbers are secondary to
me because I think. Wow, this is good.
I mean, obviously you want to look at what could possibly go.
Wrong. Long-term.
But even the long-term carnivores, I've got one, you
know, 22 years and got some in there, so a decade and a bit and
you know, there's no sign of any issues coming up quite the
reverse. I just think some of the
longer-term ones seem to just get better and better.
I know from my own personal experience it's easier and
easier to eat this way and I feel better and better and more
energized and I'm getting older. So allegedly I should bring in a
with my pipe and slippers and sitting by the fire and not
doing much better. 59, I just feel Unstoppable.
Yeah, that's good. That's what you want.
You alluded to this earlier with regard to the oral glucose,
tolerance test. But I'm assuming one of the
Kickbacks that I see, you know, out there quite a bit for
long-term, keto diet or a carnivore diet.
Is that you develop insulin resistance and their course,
talking about physiological and some resistance not pathological
and some resistance or I've heard it.
Termed adaptive glucose pairing. Is that of any concern in your
mind or no, Not really, again, it's because it's driven by the
fact that people say you should be able to tolerate a lot of
glucose. If you're going to eat an
appropriate diet, you know, why should we tolerate something
that's bad for us? If you wouldn't say to an
alcoholic, do you know what? There is still a problem here.
Because if we give you a glass of whiskey, every Saturday
starts to cause problems, you should be able to cope with that
now. So, it's just ridiculous, just
ridiculous thinking, I understand it.
And it's difficult to see a mechanism where that would be
problematic. I agree with because you are.
Yeah, I did. I just, yeah, I don't, I don't
get the ration out, but you can also have fun with it.
I had a client that was really worried and she said didn't
know, my pancreas is not going to produce insulin ever is that?
I mean, you know, I'm, I've read about this and I've seen some
influences talking about it. I said, well, if you want to go
and eat a chocolate brownie and going to me, Block because you
tell me what happens and we had a little bit because she said, I
will go through the roof sit, now it will go through the floor
because your pancreas will produce a lot of insulin, which
you wouldn't believe. Yeah, because it is now so
efficient and that's exactly what happened.
So, she had a brownie, chocolate brownie.
And normally her blood blood glucose was around 98 sometimes
or 90 and went into the low 80s. So, I can't believe that.
I really thought it's going to go like 120 130.
It said, no, your your pancreas their produce, the insulin
possibly more than you would have.
Thought because it's had a bit of a rest, you know, I know
that's very Layman's, and I don't want people out there
listening think, right? I'm going to go and experiment
with all these things, but if you just think about it
sensibly, your body should not be trained to accept things that
are poisonous to it or toxic or going to be problematic.
I want When you look at your factory nerves and you know your
sense of smell and taste to things that are sour or
potentially off good as they smell bad.
Would you want them to not be as good to be dulled down?
So you could pick something up and not know that.
That shouldn't be eaten. No, you did.
That's ridiculous. You want your body to be able to
say? Well, we can't cope with that.
We want that. So you don't do it again.
I mean, that's how you learn in nature.
Nobody tells the animals out there or here's your guidebook
to what you can eat and what you can't eat.
You know, they they learn they know what they can and can't eat
by smelling and obviously I I'm assuming there's some sort of
genetic passed down of knowledge as well.
I don't know about that but Why do why do we need to be able to
eat too much carbohydrate? What was the point of that?
There is no point? Yeah, totally wholeheartedly
agree. I feel like I would be remiss if
we did not touch on cholesterol as it pertains to blood work and
a lot of people start the day and then they just go to this
cholesterol Rabbit Hole. They'll oftentimes see it slight
elevation and the beginning if they're doing a higher fat
version as well. What's your what's your take on
cholesterol? Slightly higher, what typically
I mean I'll it's interesting. Like when I started key do with
a higher fat approach, all of my cholesterol markers, you know,
quote unquote improved, as by the book recommendation
Improvement. Some people will see an
elevation and LDL and total cholesterol.
Some people will see a decline in LDL total cholesterol.
What do you notice in that? Because you do with blood work
much, much, more than I do. What do you seen as common
Trends? Right.
That's a great question, actually.
We'll all of them been good. If you look at the nhanes data,
think from 1999 to 2014 when you, they looked at 19
individual studies, They concluded that higher LDL seems
to be associated with longevity and that is repeatable, time and
time again. So there's a lovely graph but is
produced in that study where it shows that if you have lower
cholesterol lower LDL cholesterol.
At some point, slurring it under And 20 your risk of dying
because it was using hard endpoints, went up almost twice
as much. So from about 120 up to about
280 audio, your chances of dying were much much reduced to the
point where the, the confidence figures.
Even implied that there's a slight protective element to the
high LDL. And I think it's the wrong
metric to look at anyway because a much more convincing
combination is high HDL and lowered triglycerides that seems
to be more important. When you look at studies like
that, I'm still going to go back to, you know, the health of
people and their vitality and how they present is still the
top. But they always want to talk
about cholesterol because that's you know, it's a lipid panel
that many people get and then you obviously get into
lipoprotein. A and B, you know, a Napo
lipoproteins. I mean a poe just means attached
to, you know, it's if you keep you start with the premise that
is wrong. If you start with the premise
that high LDL is deleterious to your health, then anything
that's attached to a audio is going to come up as a risk,
right? So that's why that happens.
I'm not saying it is. Pletely.
The best advice to ignore everything.
Obviously, getting to particle size, you look at oxidation and
glycation of LDL, and, and that being problematic in the
formation of foam cells and all that sort of stuff.
You can get into it. But even when you look at your
with your pattern, a or pattern B, there's still some really
predictive things you can do and strangely enough, if you can't
afford to have that test, you can pretty much extrapolate from
GL and triglycerides. So they seem to be really good
marker or of mortality risk. But also you could if you want
to get into the particle size and if you want to get into
oxidation, glycation of LDL and what's happening there, you can
pretty much see whether your pattern, a or pattern B,
depending on your triglycerides HDL.
So it's a handy thing, but in the end What you going to do
about it? I mean if you if you are getting
better, if all of your other health markers are improving.
And the only one that's going up.
Is it LDL you have to think? We'll hang on a minute.
This is the way everyone's thinking about it wrong and
that's what that study shows. Yeah, they are because it seems
that higher audio is not problematic.
It's just, it's been implicated when it should have been sugar.
That was implicated, then you get into sort of what happened
with the sugar industry and how they implicated saturated fat
rather than sugar being the big problem.
But I don't wanna get into also the politics.
And stuff like that, but I just give people the information,
they can go and research it if they want.
But I do always send them. The studies for LDL on, explain
them. If if we do in a zoom call I do
a screen share and say you might want to print this off.
Have a look at the study, print it off, take it to your doctor
and you know present this information and see what
happens. Is there a tipping point at
which, you know elevated. Elevated LDL So high that it
starts to become a longing for you.
Like some people is, you know, north of 500 like, is that a red
flag at all? Or is it just all relative?
Well, I think when you get into extremes of anything, you've got
to, why is that happening? You've got to ask why that's
happening the nhanes data. I think the graph only goes up
to 350 and it seemed unlikely from the way the line was
curving, which was very minutely that if you went up to 500 is
still would not be as problematic as as lower than 100
but I didn't I don't got those figures so I don't know.
I would always say that. I mean if some there is always
people that are going to have a different issue when the numbers
are way off, but it is it is about context because if you
have someone with a high sensitive CRP and the range and
I'm going to, I'm just Just going to give you a rough idea,
because different labs in different countries, have
different ranges but they want that CRP to be sort of 0.5 or
less. So if it's too, that's a
problem. Well, I've seen a CRP of 80 So,
2 is not a problem, right? But it is to that person because
they think, well, it's got to be 0.5.
And 2 is is, you know, threefold is quite a big difference.
But then when you say yeah, but I've had a client 80 and they
did the kind of a diet and it came down to 30, and they were
really happy. It's all about that context of
all, you know, what's actually, what do these mean, you know,
and it's the same with, you know, when you look up blood
sugar's, when you look at 100 and 110 You think well that's
you know that's 10% increase, that's pretty bad.
But if you look at volume so you're going from a teaspoon of
sugar in five and a half liters of blood to a teaspoon and a
quarter in five and a half liters of blood doesn't seem
such a big problem. So I think that's we need to get
more into sort of, what's the context of this?
What's a frame of reference and really get into sort of tangible
tangible? Things like the presentation of
symptoms, how A feeling, you know, are they dizzy to have
chest? Pains is, there is a problems
with their toilet habits are their gums bleeding.
What do their eyes look like other yellow?
The, you know, it's there's so many things are much more
important than the numbers. The numbers are there to then be
forensic and get down into what's going on.
So you know the liver you can have elevated, ALT because
you've trained because it's you know, there's a breakdown
processes going on in the liver. So is That is that meaningful,
is that good to know what it would be if you had a St.
G, g, g g, t, and also a LP. So, the for enzymes and, and the
diagnosis of any problems is always those four in ratios to
each other. So if you had high LDL possibly,
the question would be. Well, let's have a look at your
triglycerides in your HDL and maybe a vldl would be really
interesting to look at which is very underestimated.
Mated. Because vldl was like your
income in food. Really.
Where does it go first? What will the cell was thinking
of? I personally think that could be
used as a test to see if a fat adapted.
So there's many different things you could do to look at this one
number and explain it. It makes sense.
Yeah, I think yeah. And as you said, I feel like all
of this is secondary to just looking at the overall symptom
that the individual and how they're feeling performing, what
what other markers are able to recognize tangibly?
That should be first. Yeah, I mean I'll flip this
rubber because you, you know, I don't know if you get this but I
get many clients that come in and say I've got a problem, but
I've had all the tests and they say, there's nothing wrong with
me and there clearly is you Because they can't be all these
people running around with his completely imaginary problems.
So how does that fit in? So the presentation is been
being ignored. The patient's actual real
experience is being ignored. You know, I've got joint pain,
I've got this, I've got that, you know, I've run all the tests
and I'm fine and I also but you're not because you're here,
you're talking about this, you've got our problems.
So we got to we got to find out what the problem is and your
problem is not. Showing up yet.
So we look at the symptoms and we could make a prediction of
what these symptoms will look like in testing the future and
that's what we keep an eye on. But if you eat this way, the
chances are you're going to reverse all these things anyway
so it's not a worry. So maybe this is like your
wake-up call. This is your beginning of
something so it's not detectable but you going back to my thing
about the Bloods, you know, where the blood glucose was.
Great 20 years ago, but the incident has really high, you
know, that, but that was a wake-up call.
If you had a slight symptom that said, your insulin is high in
the background, even though you look fine in a blood glucose is
fine. Here's my little thing where
you've been going? Yes, you got a problem.
You need to look into it. I think that's that's how I look
at it. If someone's got any sort of
issue and it's not detected and we could get into clinical
studies about supplements that allegedly don't work because
there's no scientific background but how studies of setup I'm
sorry I've digressed here. But it's the same principle.
So something like encased glucosamine, which is a
supplement that many people say relieves their pain, symptoms in
their joints, doesn't have much scientific background because
when you do a study, they want you to have a physical thing
that they can see on an image to categorically say something has
changed which you see as a researcher, I totally understand
I'm not going to take this guy's word that is his ankle is bad
because I can't see it on an X-ray.
So all the supplements, That helped people that haven't got a
thing, that's detected and an image.
But definitely is a pain because why would people be lying about
a painting, their ankle for years and trying to sort it if
there wasn't something wrong. So then they take glucose
glucosamine and that pain goes and they say well what's with
the science of this? And I'll stash were there is no
studies that really, that say it works.
But that's because the studies are flawed because they will
only take Which but I'm not actually critical of that
research design because that makes sense too because the
nothing beats. I mean, I love it when people
come with a dexterous gain and and I can see everything and
they can see everything because he's very convincing.
You know, I've had a woman come and you really worried about the
fact, she gained some weight and I said well look you look
terrific. I'm assuming the weight is
muscle and bone. And luckily, you had a dexa scan
me many months ago, why don't you get a dexa scan when I will?
I will be pretty convinced that you have lost body fat and
you've gained muscle and bone course lo and behold she had.
So you saw it in the image. So, you know, there's, there's
two ways of looking at a thing there because I liked the image.
So, I was exactly like those researchers because it proved it
proved the concept that you can gain weight on the scale but it
doesn't mean you gain fat, you know?
No, you gain muscle, we've lost body fat, which allegedly you
can't do because you can, because we keep seeing it in
this, the especially this way of eating, you can gain muscle,
gain bone, density, and lose body fat.
Yeah, that happens all the time and the decks are was just that
brilliant image that prove that categorically that happened.
Yeah, I think having data like that, that is it's so strange
like people get so fixated on the scale but they don't take
into account all the other factors.
Like I see this a lot with my clients that need to do a
reverse dieting basically. Increase their intake because
they've been chronically restricting.
So they'll often times see an increase in scale weight.
But a lot of that is fluid weight but they sleep better.
They've got more energy, the recoveries better, they're
stronger, they're building more lean tissue and all of that
needs to be put into context and and recognized, as well as the
post is simply looking at the number on the scale and seeing
that increase and then getting disheartened.
Yeah. I mean, I'm in the sky.
Oh, I mean, it is not your friend in any way because you're
looking at the wrong. Wrong thing because you're
looking at White and not mass, and then people get hung up on
calories. I'm just about to release a
video. I've been putting the putting
the final nail in the coffin of calories and and the challenge
will be for anyone to watch this and actually tell me it doesn't
make sense what I'm saying and prove me wrong because it
narrows it to wait for the YouTube video because we just we
just look at food in the wrong way and there's so many Force
paradigms about A calorie is a complete waste of time to look
at. Really, you need to look at mass
and you need to look at energy and the usage of those
nutrients. So I'm, I've got an experiment
that actually proves categorically is going to be
video that calories. Do not make a difference to
White. It is all about Mass.
So Yeah, I like to look at things differently and have a
bit more common sense. So when people come in and like
I say they've got a pain and they've been told, there's
nothing wrong with them. That makes no sense.
Yeah. What the answer is?
There's nothing wrong. We can see or text, but there is
something wrong with you because you've got pain.
So we need to look at why you've got pain and how we can regress
that how we can get that better rehab it or whatever and You
know that that's basically my job.
I do a bit of rehab as well. Bit manipulation at a tattooist
in the other day. Really fascinating guy used to
be a child, you know, the book a children's book illustrator and
because kids don't read books with that sort of illustration
in anymore, it's all like computer done and everything, he
became a tattooist, you know, because he wanted to be
illustrating and he couldn't move his neck anymore and he
said You know, I've had an MRI. I've spent thousands on this,
can't move my neck. And within 20 minutes, I wish
I'd video dis he got his full range of motion, completely
back, then, that happens a lot. I don't do the rehab very much,
you know, like the physical manipulation, but it was a an ex
bodybuilding friend of mine, who recommended that, this guy come
to me and his faith. He just can't believe it when he
had. How can you do that?
I mean, you just, you know,
Palpated my neck and looked at how I moved and it's perfect.
Now I said, well, that's because I've not been led to believe
that the image is the be-all and end-all.
I think there are certain things that you can just tell from how
somebody's biomechanics are. We can fix it on my YouTube.
I started video in these rehab things, but that's not really my
thing. I don't, they are interesting
and I loved seeing the reactions, but in the end, I'm
not in it to get clicks. I mean it.
For that person's life to be much, much better.
And I think just having that specialism as well.
So basically, I did like a osteopathic, spinal manipulation
Advanced certificate thing. Just looking at that and how
manipulation can help make a big difference.
As made me very open-minded to to everything when it comes to
physiology and that we don't know everything and The more I
learn the more I realize, I don't know.
Yeah I think it's a really fascinating area.
I just I just think Health at the moment is such a big topic
and sadly, the mainstream media are obsessed with an empathic
medicine and just medications, and it's just a completely wrong
way to look at, we need to get back to eating the right food.
Bit of movement, that's not saying eat less move more, but I
think we should eat the correct food and we should do the right.
Right amount of movement for us and you're just so your health
improves so much and don't get hung up with numbers.
It's better to use a mirror and how you feel and your mood how
you're moving, how pain-free you are.
And that's that's a much better guide.
I think and your mental Clarity and how a sleeping all these
things are really important. Yea and all that will likely
improve. So like for you personally just
kind of will round out here out here but I want knowing all
that. You know what is a typical day
of eating? Look like for you, for instance,
are you doing you doing Corner Wilbur?
Is it like a like a two meals a day one of those meals?
Well, you're asking a question. I asked a lot of people and I
and I'm more intuitive and Engine enough.
Somebody I spoke to today, I interviewed Brett Lloyd and we
actually a birds of a feather because we just are intuitive.
So, yes, it tends to end up being two meals a day, but
that's not by Design. If I wanted a third meal and I
felt hungry and I was genuinely hungry.
I wasn't just doing it because board or really fancied, another
rib eye because I'm being greedy today, it would it tends to land
at two meals a day? I'm really not hung up on on
that at all. I'm not hung up on fasting, if I
wanted to drop some weight for some photographs, some body fat
on might fast. But I think that's because my
health is so good, so I'm yeah, sorry I'm that's really rubbish
answer. So yeah, I'm on my YouTube
channel. I do have a thing called what I
eat in a day because people like to see.
So eat a lot of fish sea bass and sermons, gallops prawns
shrimp. Cool, that sort of stuff.
I have a lot of rubberized T-Bones at rib eye on the bone
the other day which really nice some ground beef.
Fitz take you get a lily pads and some you know, dance So
again Robert sorry you get the the leaner Cuts with a lot of
the seafood there within the fattier cuts with the ribeye.
So pretty good ratio of both fats and proteins.
Yeah. Yeah.
But again, that's it, that's not how I approach it.
I like sea bass. And I mean before I was low
carb, I was hospitalized because I had high allergic reaction to
fish just to all Seafood. So, twice, in my life, I've been
hospitalized and now I can eat it.
So yeah, I was told I'd never get rid of these allergies,
there's many things we haven't really covered that have been
miraculous. And that's that is one of the,
one of the Things when I was bodybuilding, that guy used to
train with. He used to eat a lot of fish and
that was really handy because you would have these tuner and
rice after training and I would be really jealous because it
looked lovely. And I couldn't eat it because I
was allergic to fish and then I got into my 50s.
Lo and behold when I did the low-carb, all these allergies
started to disappear. I was lactose intolerant.
That isn't the case. Now have raw milk and kefir, not
so much now. Actually I'd little phase of
loving it. So I think the more you eat this
way, the more your body sort of adapts and becomes natural and
adapted to the animal proteins, animal fats.
And I just eat, that's the one I fancy that day.
And if we got it in, no nice. Juicy ribeye is about my
favorite thing. But I hadn't eaten ribeye until
I was 55 never eaten one before. So that's my favorite at the
moment. That's a good one.
You can't go wrong with a good
rib eye. No, from a mechanistic
standpoint. What do you think?
The primary reason for the the allergies disappearing was like
just the anti-inflammatory nature of removing the Quorum.
So what do you think the primary driver was there?
Well, that's a good question. I don't know, possibly a little
bit of a systemic inflammation. Possibly dysregulation of my
cell membranes. Yeah, I don't I had not really
thought about, that's a great question, Robert.
I was just pleased that I had not got it anymore.
But yeah, but I said, I suppose if I relate it to the antibody
effects of people, with thyroid this way of eating, definitely
just these are, you know, we'll see.
Reduction in TPO and TG antibodies.
So I'm assuming, yeah, that immune response is dampened down
by a species appropriate diet, for whatever reason it is and I
would imagine it would be systemic inflammation and
obviously probably something to do with the mast cells and
histamine regulation. So yeah, not thought about that.
I'll have to look into that. I'm just so pleased.
I could eat fish. I didn't really think any more
about it. Hey, we're fish is good, you
don't have to ever worry about About the the Mercury account in
the the seat Master, you don't have a have you tested your
levels on there? No, you're getting very nuanced
here. I don't think sea bass is a
predatory fish that would have high levels of mercury.
I think I don't eat it enough for it to be problematic.
And don't forget, I've had 50 years where I've never had any
of it. Yeah, so it makes sense.
You know, I probably have it. Three times a month and it is
fresh and, you know, freshly caught.
Yeah, so billion. Oh yeah, could look at that, I
suppose. I mean, I am open-minded.
That's one of the things I pride myself on being.
All right, you've asked a question then, I realize I will
really go into that and look it up and trying to find out why
that might have happened. But sometimes, you know, you're
so close to it, so you can't see the action because you're in it,
so that's a great question. I'm Replaced view asked that, so
I'll try to find the answer to that.
Yeah, definitely, keep me posted, I'm curious for sure.
Well, awesome. And we are more than an hour in
Steven. I want to be respectful of your
time. Where do people go to dig deeper
into your world and find out more about you, where the
website is the UK carnivore.com. And I'm also on Instagram, you
can Carnival, I will be bringing out a nap soon actually, I think
so that will be detailed on the Website.
So, yeah. Lots of different things on the
website, which I'm trying to improve Instagram.
Yeah. They're the two things, really.
And your podcast is on the website as well as it separate.
Yeah. So yeah, that's why buzzsprout,
but you can find the the carnivore experience I've called
it. So that's yeah, that's on
Spotify and you know, on Apple and all those sort of places.
So yeah, and I've been doing that for a month but that's more
about success. There is no science on that yet
so that's just just real people and some experts we got heart
surgeons fertility, specialist mental health experts dietitians
even all talking about low-carbon.
Yeah plenty of doctors on there were talking about their own
personal successes and what they do for their clients.
So I'm really proud of the podcast.
I've only been doing it a month, I'm not an old hand like you.
So I've got to learn what to do with podcast so I should Know
how to get people to it. But yes, I think I do cheekily
called it, the kind of experience a sort of echo, The
Joe Rogan Experience really? Hey no, I'd say it's makes total
sense, man. He's obviously doing something
right with podcasting, so mimic him is not a bad thing, I love
it. Well, I will link out to all of
those sites make it easier for people to find you and I will
definitely tune in to YouTube channel.
To watch that video on calories when it comes out.
I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation man.
Will I have to keep in touch. If there's ever anything I can
do for you, by all means, let me know.
Good, sir. Okay, thank you.
Take care.