Hello, ladies and gents Roberts like sceeto Savage.com.
And today I've got special guest dr.
Stephen gun drawn, the line. He is known for his book, The
Plant Paradox, he's got, he's got several books, he's got a
new one, coming out to this March unlocking, the keto code,
and we dive into all kinds of things.
We talked about lectins, we talked about uncoupling,
mitochondria, we talked about all kinds of things, enjoy the
conversation, not going to lie, I'm not sure that I agree with
him on everything. We, I definitely did not agree
with him on everything that we talked about, but that's Of the
beauty of the conversation, I intentionally bring people on to
the podcast that I have differing opinions on so that I
can pick their brain, see where they're, when they're staying on
certain things, understand why they stand on certain things.
I just dive deeper and learn more.
That's how we can all grow and get better and improve our
health and nutrition and optimize our lives.
So I learned a lot, I'm going to be diving deeper into some of
the research articles. He mentions in the podcast,
highly encourage you all to do the same but yeah.
I think you'll I think you'll take something from this podcast
without a Doubt. So that for their do.
Sit back, relax. Enjoy the conversation with dr.
Steven gundry And we are live doctor gundry.
How are you, sir? Very good.
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to have you get a
lot of things and work for now. You've got a book coming out in
March. I definitely want to dive into
that. But I feel like we got a touch a
little bit on your first great successful book The Plant
Paradox if like that's where a lot of people in the keto low
carb space have probably heard of you and familiarize himself
with your work. So, can you Before you can dive
into that. Can you kind of give that
listeners a little context and background as to what got you
into the health and nutrition space in the first place?
Yeah. Yeah.
I was a professor and chairman of cardiothoracic surgery at
Loma Linda University and very famous for doing baby heart
transplants and doing a lot of redo operations on adults and I
would be asked to take On patients that nobody really want
to take on. There are a few of us idiots
that would kind of volunteer for hazardous duty.
If a patient wanted to try and about truth 25 years ago now, a
gentleman by the who I call Big Ed from Miami 48 year old
gentleman was referred to me with inoperable coronary artery
disease. That means Literally all of his
blood vessels were clogged up, you couldn't put stents in them,
you couldn't do bypasses because there wasn't any place to do a
bypass, and he'd been going around the country, looking for
a center to take him on. And he spent about six months
doing this, and everybody who saw him turned him down, and he
ended up in my office after about six months, and I looked
at the angiogram, the movie of his Coronary artery vessels that
from six months earlier and I said, you know, I agree with
everybody else. There's nothing I can do for
you, I'm sorry there's just nothing there and he said well
yeah but look I've it's been six months, I've been on a diet, I
lost 45 pounds this, he was 265 pounds when I met him and he
says I've gone to a health food store.
I'm taking lots of supplements and he literally brought in this
big shopping bag full of supplements.
He said, you know, maybe I did something to my heart and I go,
wow, you know, good for you for losing weight but that's really
not going to help what we have to do.
And and I know what you did with those supplements, you made
expensive urine, which I firmly believed back then.
And he said, well, what the heck?
I've come all this way, why can't we get another angiogram?
Why can't we do a cardiac catheterization?
So we did and this guy in six months time a cleaned out 50% of
the blockages in his coronary arteries and six months
literally gone. And I had never seen anything
like that. And I said, you know, tell me
about this diet ears and let me look at those supplements.
Well I had a special major back in the Dark Ages as an
undergraduate at Yale University, where I had a thesis
that you could take a grade-a manipulated, A food supply,
manipulate its environment, prove you arrived in a human
being and I got an honors for my thesis and gave it to my parents
and one out to be a famous heart surgeon.
So big and starts telling me about the diet he was on, right?
I stopped and I said, wait a minute.
That's the diet that I described made us human.
And what's in your bag is supplements.
So I started looking in his bag of supplements and I was famous
for keeping Hearts Alive for 48 hours and a bucket of ice water
for heart transplant and we put various Solutions and stuff down
the arteries and veins of the heart to do this and lo and
behold he was swallowing some of the stuff I was Putting down the
veins and arteries and never occurred to me to swallow these
things. So, long story short, I was a
big fat guy even though I was running 30 miles a week going
the gym one hour every day, eating healthy, low-fat, mostly
vegetarian diet and couldn't figure out why.
I was such a big fat guy. So long story short, I put
myself on my thesis from college and started taking a bunch of
supplements and the first year I lost 50 pounds so I'm just going
lost another 20 and I kept it off for 25 years now.
So I started teaching my patients that I operated on this
program and they are high blood pressure went away, their
diabetes went away or their arthritis, went away.
And after about a year of this at Loma Linda, I had the stupid
idea, one Friday that I was doing this all wrong, I
shouldn't operate on people first and then teach them how to
eat. I should teach them how to eat,
and then I wouldn't have to operate on them for a heart
surgeon. That's a really bad career
choice. The left liquid about it, but I
get, yeah, I quit my position and set up a clinic here in Palm
Springs, California. And now we have one in Santa
Barbara to and I actually approached it as a research
project and I asked people to avoid certain foods, primarily
and go to Costco or Trader. Joe's or wasn't an Amazon back
then in by some supplements. And every, every three months we
track their blood work that insurance or Medicare would pay
for and we could see and do Document.
And I started publishing what was happening with these people.
And after about 15 years of this, that resulted in the plant
Paradox, which is now five years old, this this April and That
Shook things up, in in the nutrition World, subsequently
we've had seven books in the series, the most recent one, See
how you like you mentioned in March unlocking the keto code
and there you go. Definitely dive into a few areas
here with regard to the diet that big Ed was eaten and you
were thesis paper. What did that look like?
Like if you were to describe that diets what does that
consist of? Well, most people probably in
the keto community and know that no human being being a to grain
or a bean until about 10,000 years ago, they did not exist as
a food. What a lot of people don't know
is that all of us are originally from Africa, Asia or Europe and
it wasn't until 500 years ago when Columbus started Colombian
trade of new world. Products and foods that were
completely foreign to all human beings, most human beings until
500 years ago, and that includes the nightshade family.
Like tomatoes like eggplant like peppers.
Like potatoes includes corn and quinoa includes most of the
squash family and all of these different grains.
Different American Products, all, we're brand new foods, and
all of them in one way or another.
Had plant proteins that plants use as their fence against being
eaten. One of which got my attention,
which is a lectins, and we, in the program, remove most lectin
containing foods from people's diets.
And if we can't remove them, we defuse them.
We typed detoxify them. If you will.
I got you, I got you a lot of people especially they're
following a standard, American diets are so out of touch with
their body and how they feel based off the nutrition.
They're consuming that they don't even know what they're
looking for half the time. So if someone is not optimized
so to speak and it may be a result of too much lectin
consumption. What are some you know
phenotypical things that they're probably experiencing?
Well you know, Hippocrates 2500 years ago, said all disease
begins in the gut and he was absolutely right.
I've paraphrased him as well as dr.
Alessio Fasano, who's now at Harvard?
We say that all disease begins with a leaky gut and I have
published a lot, he's published a lot that in fact, if You have
a disease. I can virtually guarantee you,
you have leaky gut, if you have an autoimmune disease,
psoriasis, rheumatoid, arthritis, lupus Hashimoto's
thyroiditis, I can guarantee you, you have leaky gut and the
good news is when we seal leaky gut, All of these problems go
away. I used to have horrible migraine
headaches for example and he's do baby heart transplants with
migraines. I don't recommend it and those
went away 25 years ago and have never come back.
My used to have horrible, heartburn used to travel around
with Tom's. Heartburn is actually caused by
lectins and once I stopped eating them and months.
My patient stop eating them, their heartburn goes away.
There's there's more and more work, that depression and
anxiety, and many things that we call.
Mental. Health issues are actually
probably gut health issues first that then affects the brain.
So Epocrates was right all disease begins in the gut and
good news is all Is can end in the gut.
So what's happening like from a minute mechanistic standpoint
with these elections in the guy doesn't like I just inflamed
flama, Tory response, it's happening there.
Yeah, it's actually better than that dr.
Fasano proved, that lectins and gluten, and it happens to be a
lectin can bind to the surface of the wall of our gut, which is
literally the same surface area as a tennis court.
Art. And that surface is only one
cell thick, we've got kind of a design flaw and these cells are
all held together. Locked arms, like the kids game
Red Rover, Red Rover and lectins can bind to the wall of the gut,
and they literally can flip a switch and make a compound.
Called zanya learn which can break these tight junctions.
And so you then have literal gaps between these cells that
line the gut. And so not only can lectins get
through these gaps. And electrons are proteins, but
they're foreign proteins and our immune system, 80% of all our
white blood cells line, our got 80% and that's because This is
actually where trouble can come through first.
So lectins can get through, the immune system, sees them as a
foreign particle and they literally start attacking these
particles and it's that Warfare if you will, that is
inflammation. Not only that but pieces of
bacteria and whole bacteria can leak through The wall of the
gut. And quite frankly, they're not
supposed to be on the other side of the gut and our immune system
goes after them and lastly, what's even more?
Fascinating is normally the food we eat is digested into sugar
molecules amino acids from proteins, and fatty acids from
fats and then absorbed through the wall of our gut.
But if we actually have spaces between these cells, Then
undigested food particles of perfectly, normal food.
Let's just use an example like a piece of broccoli could get
across the wall of our gut and your immune system sees this guy
piece of broccoli. And so what the heck?
I have never seen a piece of broccoli before in my life that
is foreign. And I'm going to attack it.
So we now and we can measure these things now.
And so we can now I actually identify the sort of foods that
are actually causing the problem in the great thing is, once you
remove these troublemakers, the got literally can heal itself.
It can take up to a year to do it, but once it's healed.
Then people can read tolerate, a lot of foods that were actually
troublemakers for them when they first come.
See me and have all the Troublemaker foods that are
speak lectins are kind of one of the top of the totem pole.
Yeah, yeah. It's it's amazing.
You know when people read the plant Paradox whom have never
met me and then I'll you know I'll get a email from them or
they'll write to our podcast, the doctor Andre podcast that,
you know, son of a gun, you know, I, you know, you saved my
life. I took these Foods away that I
thought were, I was told were really good for me and Son of a
god, they, they were the cause of my depression or they were to
the cause of my arthritis or they were the cause of my
coronary artery disease, like Big Ed's example.
And you can resolve these things.
That's what's exciting. So when you remove all the foods
that contain lectins from your diet, what does that leave you
with from a vegetation standpoint?
Like do you eat a lot of vegetables?
Personally, yes, indeed. I am a plant predator and anyone
who's been with me knows that I eat a lot of plants.
Mainly leaves nuts, a Consume ton of olive oil but all of the
all the leaves a lot of lot of you know.
For instance an avocado is a fruit but it's a great fruit.
Artichokes are a phenomenal food.
The Chicory family. Many people have heard of
Radicchio or seen this kind of red ball of Italian.
Let us is not lettuce in the grocery store and these things
actually not only are great for you but they actually feed
friendly bacteria in our gut. You know, my last few books have
been really devoted to the care and feeding of the of
microbiome, the gut buddies as I call them and getting rid of the
bad bugs in our gut. The gang members, And
interestingly enough, we now know that the types of bacteria
in your gut have different desires for different foods and
the gang members actually love simple carbohydrates and fats
saturated fats. And these they actually send
text messages to your brain. Brain to get more of these form
themselves. On the other hand, the gut
buddies. Can't use those Foods on the
other they want soluble fibers. Like are some of the foods.
I was just talking about and there's actually some really
cool human data not to mention animal data that you can take
bacteria from an obese human. And do a fecal transplant to a
skinny human and that skinny human will become obese strictly
because the bacteria took over their willpower is a nice way to
say it. So they isn't lending them to
just over consume calories in general.
Or is there something on a deeper level?
They're great. Question two things they
actually make you seek out high-calorie foods high sugar
foods, high fat foods. But as I showed in the energy
Paradox, my last book, these bacteria are actually very
efficient at extracting more More calories out of the food,
you eat and literally processing it for you.
On the other hand, the good bacteria, actually keep most of
the calories that you eat as long as they're the right ones
for themselves to make more of themselves.
So the surprising thing is I've never had a calorie In any of my
books. I've never had a macro in any of
my books we just tell people. Okay, here's here's the foods
you want to avoid. Here's the food.
You want to eat and eat as much as you want of them.
And people are shocked that they're eating a lot of food.
And for the most part, losing weight and that actually
prompted the latest book. I definitely want to dive into
that before. Oh, that when it comes to like
carnivore diets, for instance, like carnivores gained a lot of
momentum and people seem to have a tremendous success with that,
is that in your opinion, mostly results at the complete removal
of lectins or do you think they're missing out by not
incorporating vegetables back in?
Well, I yeah, I some people have called me the, in an inadvertent
father of the carnivore diet because a carnivore diet in
general eliminates most lectin containing foods.
There's a few exceptions to that, but I don't mind a
carnivore diet as an Elimination Diet, but as I've written about
in all my books, there are some some real long.
Term. Even short-term disturbing
effects of a carnivore diet and just to name one beef lamb and
pork have a sugar molecules called neu5gc and four.
People want to remember to say who knew And it's in eu5 GC, our
blood vessels, on the other hand, have a sugar molecule
called, new 5ac. We share that Sugar molecule
with fish and poultry. So interestingly enough these
molecules are very similar. And we can actually make and
auto antibody to our sugar molecule lining, our gut and
lining, our blood vessels and attack our blood vessels.
When we eat beef lamb or pork and that may be one of the
reasons why eating red meat Associates with coronary
arteries, It's that to one possibility.
The other thing we know is that cancer cells.
Tumors use neu5gc to cloak themselves and hide from the
immune system and this has been known for years.
The only problem is, we don't manufacture neu5gc, we only
manufacture new 5ac. So The cancer cells have to
acquire neu5gc via US eating beef, lamb or pork and that may
account for why red meat eaters have a higher incidence of
cancer. So those are I think that's a
that's that's enough of a worry. The second worry that I write
about in the book so that's been discovered by the Cleveland
Clinic for many years now is that animal proteins and fats
are converted in by our intestinal bacteria into a
compound called tmao. And tmao is a pretty Nasty,
compound, that damages blood vessels.
It's recently been associated with dementia and Parkinson's.
It's been associated with kidney damage and it does not occur in
vegans, it only occurs in meat eaters, and We can measure that
we measure routinely in our patients and it's fascinating to
them if we ask them to just for two weeks, give up animal
products, and we measure tmao before and after, and they're
shocked that the tmao disappears.
Once they do that, and they're shocked when it reappears, after
they go back and start eating, even something as simple.
Is a couple of bags. So those are to me, particularly
as art, surgeons and cardiologists.
Pretty compelling reasons that long-term a carnivore diet.
Probably isn't a very good idea. Also, since I study longevity
and long living humans, there is not a human tribe culture that
Is heavily meet Laden that has longevity.
There's there isn't one and you would think if this was such a
good idea that some culture would have thrived doing this
and they unfortunately known exist.
Now a lot of the studies that cast meet in a negative light
with regard to cancer research and whatnot.
Those are often times in the context of a population size of
that's also consuming a lot of hydrate, right?
And there's not really been studied, then looking at meet
and obeys consumption independent of a high
carbohydrate or higher carbohydrate diet as well,
correct? No, that's not correct.
The studies looking at neu5gc, which is all only present and
beef lamb and pork and its association with tumor.
Cloaking is, I mean, it's pretty impressive, scary evidence.
So so that's regardless of, you know, what else is being eaten.
So in other words, I'm number one.
Don't particularly want to develop cancer and if I do, I
certainly don't want the cancer cells to evade my immune systems
detection. Yeah, definitely have to read up
on that up to have you send it to me via email or something
after this is over. I'll do some reading on that
actually. It's in the black Paradox.
You can notice references. Yep.
Nice neu5gc. So, what is your, I mean, are
you not eating much red? Meat, are you sticking mostly
like fish and things of that nature?
Well, I am a what I describe as a veg.
Aquarian I eat mostly plants and then you see on the weekends, my
wife and I eat wild, shellfish mollusk, clams, oysters, wild
shrimp, wild Lobster. And we do so for reasons that I
go into in In the new book, but I grew up in Omaha Nebraska.
And so about every about every three months, so we'll share a
grass-fed grass-finished, steak, we will eat pastured poultry.
It's hard to find, but we will, and but that's about it.
What about the the concern with cholesterol as relates to eat
more saturated fats? I mean, you being a cardiologist
and carnivores, for instance, eating lots of animals high in
saturated fats, is there a pretty big red flag there in
your opinion? So it's not so cholesterol,
really has nothing to do with coronary artery disease.
What, what does produce coronary artery disease is inflammation
on the surface of blood. Oils and cholesterol.
Just happens to be an innocent bystander that if you will, is,
is spackling compound, that patches these areas of
inflammation. So you could have patience, and
I have them who have total cholesterol is of over, 500 and
ldls of 250-300 but they have, absolutely, no inflammation on
the surface of their blood vessels, which we Can measure
and they do not oxidize their cholesterol.
And if you like the cholesterol theory of heart disease
cholesterol has to be oxidized to stick to blood vessels and we
can measure that other doctors can measure that and I've
published data that simple supplements, like polyphenol
containing foods like olive oil like grape seed extract Like a
supplement called pycnogenol which is French Maritime tree.
Bart can actually eliminate inflammation on the surface of
blood vessels and when people stop taking these compounds it
comes back. So yeah I really could care less
about cholesterol. As long as people don't have
inflammation on the inside of their blood.
Puzzles. And since you brought up
lectins, earlier lectins are one of the known reasons to have
inflammation on the surface of blood vessels lectins.
Actually stick to sugar molecules on the surface of
blood vessels just like they stick to the lining of joints
and just like they stick to the communication between one nerve
and another, they they are. Literally sugar molecule seeking
missiles and they do a really good job of Mischief.
So, what's the best proxy for someone that is concerned about
their cholesterol? For instance, if they want to
measure the inflammation in the lining of their arteries and
blood vessels, what is what is their best route?
They're like, get a CAT scan. No, those are useless.
There's really no correlation between coronary calcification
and plaque on the inside of the blood vessels and that's why if
there was a good correlation and Medicare and insurance would pay
for that test, but Medicare and insurance doesn't pay for a
coronary calcium, scan because there is no Definitive
correlation between coronary calcification and plaque on the
inside of blood vessels. And for my Cardiology friends
who think there is a correlation, I always refer them
to the paper that shows statin drugs actually increase coronary
calcification and if we were so worried about it and we think
that statin drugs read Zeus heart disease.
Then why would I want to take a Statin drug and increase my
coronary artery calcification and yet?
That's what happens in humans. So yeah, so no, you don't want
to do that. It's really easy, it's paid for
by insurance, it's paid for by Medicare.
The simplest test is Ox, L DL, 0, x LDL oxidized LDL A better
test, which really chose you. What exactly is happening with
all the different forms of cholesterol is called Ox P.
El capital P capital L stands for phospholipids dash, Appo
APO, capital B. So Ox po, Appleby is really the
definitive way. Of determining, whether there is
any risk of cholesterol attacking your blood vessels.
I guess it's a nice way of saying it.
So anybody that this just been to the dock for the general
checkup and is there pushing them to get a Statin?
They should they should go test that first and foremost.
Well yeah, but first, and foremost before they do that the
strongest correlation with A cholesterol profile and
developing the coronary artery disease is actually elevated
triglycerides. Triglycerides are the first form
of fat that we manufacture from sugars and starches.
I could have you eat a pound of butter and your triglycerides
would be 20. On the other hand, I could have
you eat a bowl of popcorn and your triglycerides would be 150
and that would scare me to death.
I'm a really mean guy. I make my patients get their
triglycerides down to 40 to 50 triglycerides as normal of 150s
been artificially elevated because I've yet to see a human
being who has elevated LDL with low triglycerides.
Plus if people are playing with their cholesterol numbers and
you want to avoid heart disease, you Want your HDL, the so-called
good cholesterol to be equal to or preferably higher than
triglycerides. Let me give you a personal
example. When when I met Big Ed, I had a
triglycerides of about well not of about 166 and my HDL was 32
which is horribly low. And I was assured that this was
Because my father followed the same pattern, imagine my shock.
And when I took my triglycerides down to 30 in my HD L went to a
tee, I have the same genes that I had when my HDL was 32 and my
triglycerides were 166. What change was the food?
I ate and this is actually what made me.
Me resigned my position, start teaching people how to eat
because people can absolutely positively dial in whatever
number they want to appear. And we have a number of patients
who have been told to take a Statin drug by a well-meaning
cardiologist. And instead they come see me and
go back to their cardiologist and cardiologist looks at their
new blood work. And As boy, aren't you?
Glad I put you on that Statin and they go.
Well as a matter of fact, I'm not on one and they're
flabbergasted. Very, very distinguished
cardiologist. At Cedars-Sinai is now a good
friend of mine, just by having a few patients in common and
seeing what happens. And I know you mentioned, you're
not tracking macros or calories but via the recommended food.
You're suggesting people consume.
Would you, would you say that the higher Percentage of their
calories are likely coming from good quality, dietary fats.
Wait, I'm sorry. You broke up on that last part.
Would you, would you venture to say that a good number of the
people. You're recommending nutritional
advice to are probably consuming a relatively High, you know,
concentration their calories from quality dietary fats, all
in all. Um no not necessarily.
I think we see we should be a huge mixture of people.
I have a huge number of people who have been on On the
traditional ketogenic diet that has failed them miserably and
they're eating a whole lot of dietary fats.
And when we reduce their dietary fats and change the timing of
their eating and add other ways to accomplish what they're
trying to do. With high-fat diet, we get some
pretty amazing results and that That's one of the reasons I
wrote the new book. Yes, dive into that.
So the new book unlocking, the Kyoko.
What was the the primary Catalyst for that was the
motivation behind writing them? Well I've been a big fan of the
ketogenic diet for over 20 years.
I it's a part of all of my books, the plant Paradox as a
key, do intensive care program that we used successfully in
people. Are always shocked about the
number of carbohydrate containing foods in my ketogenic
diet and yet we have really good success with it.
So when I was writing the energy Paradox which was my last book,
I wanted to spend some time showing how ketones Are so
useful for improving mitochondrial, efficiency and
fat burning efficiency. And as I was trying to dig into
more literature to explain the mechanism that this supposedly
happened. I realized that in fact ketones
aren't a miraculous fuel. In fact, they're a pretty lousy
Fuel and this this was has been known about actually since the
1970s and as recently as 2008 work out of Harvard show that in
humans on a full ketogenic diet at full ketosis, that ketones
are only able to meet thirty percent of the body's energy
requirement for fuel. And at full ketosis.
The brain still needs 30 to 40 percent of its calories as
glucose not ketones, even though there are present in huge
numbers. And so, you sit there and go,
we'll wait a minute that flies in the face of what we think
ketones are doing. And so the unlocking, the keto
code is actually Li Hao ketones are not a great fuel, but
ketones are a very impressive. Signaling molecule that tells
mitochondria the energy producing organelles in our
cells to as strange, as it may seem waste fuel to waste
calories and to become in fact, in efficient at converting
calories, Into energy and that Revelation actually happened.
You know, a small paper that was published in the year 2000 by a
researcher by the name of Martin brand and the paper and I urge
your listeners to read it. It's quick, it's easy called
uncoupling to survive and it's about how when you're starving
to death. You have to save your
mitochondria from dying because if they die, that's the end of
you. And so mitochondria go through a
method of protecting themselves which is called mitochondrial
uncoupling. Most people can't think of
uncoupling is getting a divorce or breaking up but in fact
mitochondria have Ways of wasting a lot of the calories
that we eat normally. In fact, 30% of all the calories
we eat, never enter fully the electron transport chain or made
into a teepee there in instead uncoupled from burning as a, as
a calorie to produce ATP. But instead produce Eat and
these uncoupling proteins that control, this system were
discovered actually as far back as 1978.
And if you look for instance, at super old people folks in their
late 90s, early 100's who are thriving.
One of the things that's fascinating about them is they
have the most uncoupled mitochondria of of anyone So the
phrase exactly right uncouple to survive.
And the book unlocking, the keto code actually takes people
through the various tricks and hacks to uncouple their
mitochondria, and you don't have to do a boring miserable,
high-fat diet to accomplish it. That's the fun part.
So what is the like I want to give away your book here too
much but what is during the the mechanism is happening tonight?
When you go through, what are these tricks and hacks or what
are some main ones consists of? Because I mean a lot of people
are seeing great performance success in switching to a
ketogenic diet. So is that kind of Happening by
default and them or what? What's going on there?
Well, remember, when you're on ketogenic diet, you've pretty
much eliminated, lectin containing foods and I think
that explains why people who do Paleo diet, people who do Peter
genic, dive people do a low-carb diet, people who do high protein
diet, the thing that binds, all those together is the avoidance
of lectins, and the ceiling of the gut.
But on the other hand, but we do know that continuous ketosis is
is really a performance killer for two reasons.
Number one, ketones signal mitochondria to protect
themselves at all costs. And to if they're going to make
proteins to make mitochondrial proteins to make more
mitochondria and to Not make proteins for muscle repair and
for building muscle. And that explains why the number
of people in chronic ketosis 24/7 365 days a year, begin to
get muscle wasting. We know that the muscles become
insulin resistant and it also explains why so many people
start to run and elevating. It fasting glucose, all in an
effort. Effort for the mitochondria to
protect themselves and to starve the muscles.
In fact, as I talked about in the book, we know that Elite
race walkers on a ketogenic diet can achieve the performance of a
more carbohydrate based diet but only at the expense of increased
oxygen consumption and faster breathing.
And we go into the Mechanism of that in the book and you cannot
provide adequate fuel for muscles using ketones.
You can certainly provide adequate fuel for muscles using
free fatty acids but ketones as a fuel are pretty lousy and
doctors Cahill and Owens proved this at Harvard.
As recently as 2008. So anyone that's fat adapted.
I mean that they're not trying to use ketones exclusively as a
fuel source. I mean, a large budget, my
calories and energy comes from fat.
I'm not consuming carbohydrates. So my predominant energy source
is the fatty acids. So I like know of anybody but
exclusively with ketones, but but remember T tones exist?
Really, for only one reason. And that is free, fatty acids
are too big and not water soluble.
Of to get through the blood-brain barrier, right?
And so ketones are short, water-soluble fatty acids, that
can diffuse through the blood-brain barrier and provide
quite frankly, an emergency fuel source for the brain.
But even at full ketosis. The brain can't get enough fuel
from ketones and It uses glucose and that's one of the I think
long-term down down sides of a continuous ketogenic diet, when
you're when you're fat d'ampton. I mean the brain have absolutely
does need glucose but you're able to give that internally
through gluconeogenesis to the amount necessary for that brain
and its function, correct. And if you're really on for
instance, an 80, Sent fat diet. He may not be getting enough
protein to accomplish that gluconeogenesis and you waste
your own protein to do it. I have several colleagues who
have attempted 24/7 365 day, ketogenic diet and develop
sarcopenia for that exact reason, so on a on a very high
fat diet. So am I like an anomaly Or
something because I've have been strict, ketogenic for seven
years now, and I am a competitive bodybuilder.
So I build muscle with every year that passes my physique
improves my markers improve, I'm certainly not sarcopenia.
Sent carbohydrates. And though that's what I'm
talking about. By definition is the classic
ketogenic diet. That was established at the Mayo
Clinic in 1920 catch. Okay.
Yeah. That makes sense.
I definitely eat a lot of protein, but I'm taken in quite
a high percentage of calories, from dietary fat, but I'm eating
enough total calories that. Even with that high fat
percentage, I'm taking in, you know, a protein for my, for my
needs. Which leads me to another
interesting question. When it comes to what you've
discovered in doing what you've done for the past several years,
do you notice there being any differentiating factor between
being in a caloric Surplus versus that of a deficit?
I mean, is there like with your energy Paradox book?
For instance, did you equate for eternity track calories?
You said, but is there like a significant differentiating
factor with someone that's in a deficit versus a surplus?
Well, it depends on who you're eating the calories for my job.
As far as I can tell, is to eat most of my calories for my gut
microbiome and giving them what they want.
And quite frankly, I'm their home and we now know that Is a
very symbiotic relationship between the gut microbiome and
us and My Philosophy is eat for them and as long as you're
eating for them, they'll take care of their home.
You and I think one of the one of the issues that I talked
about and a more traditional ketogenic diet is, Is that it
doesn't provide adequate nutrition for the gut microbiome
to do its job and some so I don't I I eat for them.
It's like Jacqueline. Jacqueline.
I got to know in his later years.
I happen to think of him as the Godfather of fitness and maybe
you'll agree. But that Jacqueline used to have
a famous expression. If it tastes good, spit it out.
And he was actually saying after talking to him he said we
actually should not be eating for us.
We should be eating for our gut microbiome and you know it
pretty well. I think you still be alive.
He developed pneumonia. And from what I understand did
not take antibiotics which I'm not a big fan of but sometimes
you need them some but he made. It to 96 and perfect health.
That's pretty rapid age for sure.
Yep. I meant to dive deeper into the
mechanistic property of the uncoupling.
What are some tangible, action steps so to speak of?
What are some changes that you make in someone's nutrition to
really amplify that uncoupling effect?
Well, the cool thing is, there's lots of ways to uncouple
mitochondria, besides ketones. For instance, ketones, do
uncouple mitochondria. But you can generate ketones
from MCT oil and you can have all the carbohydrates you want
and have MCT oil and you will generate ketones.
That's been well, shown there is a host of MCT fats in both goat
and sheep milk products. Thirty percent of all the fat in
goat and sheep cheese, goat, and sheep, yogurt, is actually MCT.
And so you can actually get MCTS while eating go cheap products
which I recommend in the new book and there's actually two
blue zones. The longest-living people in the
world who are blue zones, not because they're eating grains
and beans. But because they're eating goat
and sheep cheeses and that's the mountainous area of Sardinia and
Nagoya, Peninsula and Costa Rica.
And there's beautiful evidence. That shows it's the goat and
sheep products that they, that makes the difference, not the
grains and beans with that makes the difference.
So, that's one. Is it worthwhile for someone to
to check Ketone levels on a somewhat regular basis to ensure
that They have circulating blood ketones know, you really want to
cycle in and out of ketosis on a daily basis.
We're designed to cycle in and out normally, every 24 hours
into ketosis and back out of ketosis.
And that's, that's our design. Now, the vast majority of people
cannot do that they have no, Flexibility in being able to
burn fat as a fuel or even generate ketones and the book
takes people through the various ways to do this.
Now in addition to MCT oil, providing ketones without a
ketogenic diet, there are many other ways to uncouple
mitochondria. And some of the easiest ways are
short chain fatty acids that are Generated by our gut,
microbiome, by giving them, fibrous Foods date and that's
butyrate and acetate. For instance, butyrate can be
converted into beta hydroxy butyrate which most eugenic
folks know is BH B. So, the substrate for that is
butyrate but butyrate in its own, right?
Can actually uncouple mitochondria just as well.
Interestingly enough, apple cider vinegar or any vinegar for
that matter works. Because acetic acid is a strong
mitochondrial on coupler. The other thing that's fun is
that polyphenols which are those bright-coloured colors in
fruits, and leaves, and vegetables are actually profound
mitochondrial and couplers in and of themselves.
And I've been Searching polyphenols.
Now for 25 years and little did I know that their power is not
as an antioxidant they are not antioxidants but they are
marvelous mitochondrial and couplers.
When it comes to fruits you mentioned fruits fruits have
been in the in the topic of discussion.
Quite a bit lately within the keto low carb space.
Do you feel like fruits hold a pretty prominent place in
people's diet or should or no think not so much?
Huh? No.
In my original book was famous for saying, give fruit.
The boot fruit is as been bred for fructose.
Great apes, only gain weight during fruit season and fruit
season does not occur your round in the jungle.
It only occurs once a year in great apes, gain weight by
converting, the fructose in Fruit to fat in the form of
triglyceride and it'll also converts into uric acid.
Which my good friend David Perlmutter, has a new book
coming out called drop acid. And fruit is one of the best
ways to increase uric acid, which can damage your kidneys
can give you blood pressure problems can actually make you
gain weight and that's why fruit is really good for weight gain.
On the other hand, the polyphenols and fruit are great.
So when I ask people to do is get out there, Jack Lalanne
juicer, I know you got it sitting on a cabinet someplace
and buy organic fruit and season juice it.
Throw away the juice and then take the pulp, which has all the
polyphenols and then mix that in two plain goat or sheep yogurt
or coconut yogurt or put them in some silicone ice cube trays and
freeze them and then bring them out and stir it into some
coconut yogurt or some goat and sheep yogurt and have yourself
an ice cream, which I show how to do in the book.
Is that your preferred source of the pain?
No. Well I take a ton of different
polyphenols. One of the best sources of
polyphenols that everybody has access to on a ketogenic diet is
olive oil. There are three blue zones that
consume a leader of olive oil per week.
That's about 10 tablespoons a day.
There is a very famous study out of Spain called the predamond
study looking at people with known coronary artery disease.
Those who were made to consume a leader of olive oil per week.
And they actually had not only regression of their coronary
artery disease, but they actually had improved memory at
the end of five years compared to a low-fat control group.
So, olive oil is full of great polyphenols.
So in kind of taking it all that you said and then bundling it
all together into a, an actual nutritional plan for people
listening. It sounds like make sure you get
plenty of olive oil in. Make sure you're getting some
fish in a lot of veggies that are free of lectins, make sure
getting a protein in and then ideally phone, a ketogenic diet,
enough fat, to make sure that you're producing ketones so that
you can optimize for that. Uncoupling standpoint.
Is that more or less? What I'm picking up.
Yeah, with the exception of you actually to achieve what you
want from a ketogenic diet, which believe it or not is
mitochondrial and coupling, you do not need to eat a high fat
diet and that's the real revelation of unlocking, the
keto code. And this was proven incidentally
in childhood epilepsy studies children on the traditional
ketogenic diet for epilepsy, where had growth stature had
muscle wasting and it was abandoned until it was
resurrected with a MCT oil based diet for kids where they were
given a lot more carbohydrates and a lot more protein and they
still had the same anti-seizure effect of the Traditional
high-fat, ketogenic diet. And it was actually that
information that kind of started me down this road saying, son of
a gun. We've got this, we got to eat a
ton of fat, to get the benefits of a keto ketones.
We don't have to and that's unlocking, the, keto coat.
Now, when it comes to like if proteins equated for, for
instance, you know, protein is not a great substrate for
energy, so someone's going to have to get their fuel from
either dietary fats or dietary carbohydrates, and someone's
following a little carbohydrate diet.
They're probably going to have, I'm not suggesting people have a
traditional ketogenic down the sense of, you know, 90% of cars
coming from fat, and very minimal protein, and no carbs.
But if you're taking in enough protein and your have a high
energy expenditure, like if you're an athlete, for instance,
you're going to want to have, you know, enough dietary fat to
fuel that demand, True and you're right protein, we lose
30% of the calories and protein just in breaking it down and we
lose it from the inefficiency of breaking down protein.
So you're right protein is not a great source of fuel, but it is
a great source of making glucose, which you do have to
somehow Compen, say, for on very high fat diet, and usually it
comes from protein. Gotcha.
Now I'm definitely read the
book. It comes out in March. 20, March
8th, March 8. Okay, yeah March 8 and all the
other studies that you've mentioned there, they're
indicated in the other, the prior books is, right.
There's there's like a page on your website that lists all
these studies out by chance. Yeah, actually, if you go to dr.
Gunther e.com. You can actually see most of
most of these studies, but the most of the studies that I just
mentioned a day, are in the new book and, you know, highly
highly referenced awesome. Well, I'm almost certainly be
reading that. See what I can learn for sure.
I'll link that to you websites. In the show notes.
Is there anything else that's in the pipeline of having a book
coming out? Some pretty big thing in itself,
but anything else you you want to direct people to attention
towards? Well, yeah, I mean, Can they can
find me, dr. Gunther e.com.
I supplement, food company is done, dream, d.com.
And actually for your listeners, if you go to gundry imdb.com and
use the code, gundry will give you thirty percent off your
first order just for your listeners.
Awesome. Well, I will definitely link out
to that as well. Can't thank you enough for
taking the time to jump on a podcast and chat.
With me, I'm excited to read the book, decided to see what I can
learn and excited to dive in deeper to what you're working on
here. All right.
Well, thanks a lot. Thanks very much for having me.
And yes, head on over to gundry. I'm d.com and put in gundry 30
and try some polyphenols out. Sounds great and I appreciate
you sir. All right.
Thank you very much. Take care.
With me, I'm excited to read the book, decided to see what I can
learn and excited to dive in deeper to what you're working on
here. All right.
Well, thanks a lot. Thanks very much for having me.
And yes, head on over to gundry. I'm d.com and put in gundry 30
and try some polyphenols out. Sounds great and I appreciate
you sir. All right.
Thank you very much. Take care.