1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,600 Well, hello ladies and gents, Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com. 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,120 Today I've got special guest Paul Austin on the line. 3 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,039 He is the man behind Third Wave, which is a company that he 4 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,880 started about nine years ago. And it's all about psychedelics, 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,120 micro dosing, doing deep work and using that as an alternative 6 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,400 to traditional prescription medication and just turning 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:25,360 one's health and psychology around via these psychoactive 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,520 substances. So this is again a topic I know 9 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,480 nothing about from experience, but I wanted to just bring him 10 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,360 on and pick his brain as to what the use case scenarios are for 11 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,560 this, what he's experienced personally, what he's 12 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,680 experienced with his client pool, and just learn more about 13 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,400 this as a potential outlet for people wanting to improve their 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,600 health and psychology So thoroughly enjoy that 15 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,320 conversation. I've got no doubt that you will 16 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,800 take something from it. So that for the delay, sit back, 17 00:00:49,800 --> 00:01:03,240 relax, enjoy the podcast with Paul Austin and we are live. 18 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,680 Paul, how are you man? I'm good, Robert. 19 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:07,720 How are you doing? I'm doing wonderfully well 20 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,280 myself, so it's interesting. I've actually had a few guests 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,720 as of late jump on and dive into the wonderful world of 22 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,080 psilocybin mushrooms, psychedelics, and that's an area 23 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,760 that I have very little knowledge and 0 experience. 24 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,440 And so I'd love to kind of just peel the curtain back on that 25 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,360 because that is certainly a growing trend these days it 26 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,920 seems. And what What has you 27 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:31,080 interviewing people about it? Why? 28 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,160 Why do you think it's curious or something to talk about? 29 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:35,840 I mean, I'm just, I bring on people from all different 30 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,680 backgrounds within the, you know, quote UN quote, biohacking 31 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,120 health space. And I feel like that genre of 32 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,080 health as a a viable alternative to traditional medicine, 33 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,120 especially within the psychological realm, has has 34 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,040 shown some pretty efficacious use cases. 35 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,320 So just kind of have an open mind about that and bring people 36 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,640 on learning their perspective, figuring out where they stand on 37 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,240 it, seeing what the science shows and just learning, man. 38 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,400 That's what I'm all about. Very cool. 39 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,400 And you know, what's interesting is, you know, 61% of Americans 40 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,240 now support legal psychedelic assisted therapy. 41 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,440 Colorado has legalized psychedelics Oregon, and the FDA 42 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,480 is about to approve MDMA as a treatment for PTSD, also called 43 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,240 Ecstasy. So it feels like now is a great 44 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,880 time to talk about this topic, because by this time next year 45 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,720 we could see the first legal federally legal psychedelic in 46 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,200 60 or 70 years. Yeah, it's it's crazy. 47 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,080 All the bureaucratic red tape that has had to jump through in 48 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,400 order to get this moving in that direction. 49 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,680 But and the way I look at it, I mean, like I said, I don't have 50 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,440 any experience with this personally, but I, I know people 51 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:49,800 who have been on prescription medication their entire life and 52 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,360 have been able to get off of that sometimes leveraging you 53 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,520 know, these these psychedelics. And in my opinion, with the 54 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,560 little experience or the zero experience I have like that is a 55 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,400 much healthier alternative in my opinion. 56 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,800 Yeah, they don't have withdrawals if you stop taking 57 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,160 them. No physical withdrawals. 58 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,000 There's no nasty side effects. Like a lot of people who are 59 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,720 necessarized. They see, you know, whether it's 60 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:21,120 testosterone or estrogen, you know, sexual vitality drops, 61 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,320 there's less energy, there's mood swings. 62 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,200 And people notice when they work with psychedelics. 63 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,280 There's actually a lot of things that get better, and and a big 64 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,080 reason for that is just how it interacts with the brain. 65 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,240 You know, typical antidepressants tend to act as a 66 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,200 Band-Aid, and they tend to blunt our emotional response to 67 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,160 difficult things. And psychedelics actually act as 68 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,400 we could even say, a form of catharsis. 69 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,480 So there's a hormetic response when we work with psychedelics 70 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,680 where it sort of does something within the body to force it to 71 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,320 adapt and that creates, you know, neuroplasticity. 72 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,560 There's clinical research that shows psychedelics are helpful 73 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,880 at lowering chronic inflammation, which is we all 74 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,200 know is super important for anyone who's interested in 75 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,440 living a healthy and vital lifestyle. 76 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,760 So there's, you know, more and more research coming out, but 77 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,480 it's really a a ground, you know, a grassroots groundswell 78 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,240 movement at this, at this point in time. 79 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,240 The number of people who have worked with psychedelics, in 80 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:28,000 fact, has quadrupled since 2019. So since 2019, the number of 81 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,520 people who have taken psychedelics has quadrupled, 82 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,400 increased by 4X. Which just shows you that people 83 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,320 need alternative treatments for mental health challenges because 84 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,920 the sort of current protocols just aren't cutting it for most 85 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,280 folks. Yeah, and I don't know, man. 86 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:46,960 Like we we don't even know what we don't know about the brain. 87 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,520 And when it comes to psychology, human psychology, like I've got 88 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,960 family members that have struggled with depression and 89 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,000 they've been on and off various different SSRIs and you know 90 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,960 they've I've seen people turn to alcohol and other forms of 91 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:07,040 medication that have a very obvious and clear negative 92 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,840 effect on the body and the health of that individual. 93 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:13,840 So anything that could be a potential outlet that is 94 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,600 superior to that I'm I'm all for what got you interested in this 95 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,800 to begin with man. Like was there a catalyst for 96 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,560 you diving into the the world of psychedelics? 97 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:34,160 So I'm 33 and at the age of 19, just under 15 years ago, I tried 98 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,080 psilocybin mushrooms for the first time with a couple friends 99 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,360 in a pretty not a party setting, but also not necessarily a deep 100 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,400 therapeutic setting. We were in the basement of a 101 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,160 home that I was living in at that point in time and we each 102 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,960 did like 2G of mushrooms and watched Pink Floyd's The Wall, 103 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,040 which was a great way to experience my my first ever 104 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,160 psychedelic trip. But you know, that was just sort 105 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,240 of a teaser. It was an opener. 106 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,360 I I didn't have a really, I would say deep and meaningful 107 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,120 experience with psychedelics until about 5 months after that 108 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,000 when I tried LSD for the first time. 109 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,840 Again, not in a recreational or party setting, but also not a 110 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:15,840 deep therapeutic setting. It was with a few friends. 111 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:20,520 We were outdoors, hiking, swimming, enjoying the woods and 112 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,960 the beach. And we did a, you know, moderate 113 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,040 dose of LSD, about 250 micrograms. 114 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,200 And just, you know, I felt connected to everything around 115 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,560 me. It felt like I was able to be 116 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,760 more present, you know, for two or three weeks after I I had 117 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,360 this experience with LSD. Life just felt a little 118 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:44,800 smoother, a little bit more flowy. 119 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,200 It was less in my head, less rumination. 120 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,920 And so at that point in time, I got pretty into it, you know, 121 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,480 for the next, over the next two or three years, I I took 122 00:06:55,480 --> 00:07:00,920 psychedelics probably 15 or 20 times and just started to really 123 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,720 explore how beneficial they could be. 124 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,240 And you know, I was at AI was at an age where, you know, I'm 125 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,920 19/20/21. I'm trying to figure out what 126 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,440 I'm going to do and what my professional career is going to 127 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,800 be and what I'm going to do when I graduate university. 128 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,640 And those really psychedelic experiences, I would say one of 129 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:25,400 the main things they taught me was that in my 20s it's better 130 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,320 that I commit to doing things not for the money, necessarily, 131 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,680 not to build a status or not to build a resume, but to really 132 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,320 pursue life experiences that would be beneficial. 133 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:43,720 And so I ended up in my 20s, travelling to over 80 countries. 134 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,080 I've lived in cities pretty much almost on every continent in the 135 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:54,800 world besides Australia and Antarctica, and as part of those 136 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,800 travels, in 2015 I was living in Budapest and I had started my 137 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,760 first business in 20/13/2014. I taught English online and 138 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,000 built a small educational business, and in 2015 there were 139 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,160 a lot of prominent folks who were starting to talk about 140 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,320 psychedelics. There was more research coming 141 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:19,160 out. Cannabis had been recreationally 142 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,120 legalized in many states. And so I thought, you know what, 143 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:24,520 I think I see the writing on the wall here. 144 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,240 Psychedelics are just going to become more popular, more of 145 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,280 interest. And I'd love to help educate 146 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,960 people about if I want to do this, how do I do it 147 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,240 responsibly, how do I do it safely, How do I do it 148 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,320 effectively? And so in 2015, I I started 3rd 149 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,159 Wave. The educational platform was 150 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:45,040 almost nine years ago now. And so for the last nine years, 151 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,520 you know, I've had a podcast where we interview clinicians, 152 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:54,920 therapists, doctors, coaches, entrepreneurs, writers, shamans. 153 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,160 I started a legal psilocybin retreat center in the 154 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,320 Netherlands. We did high dose mushroom 155 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:06,160 retreats for over 1000 people and my most recent project is a 156 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,680 practitioner training program. We've trained over 250 157 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,080 practitioners and coaches and how to work with psychedelics. 158 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:16,360 So this this, for me really is my life's worked and it's only 159 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,680 getting started. And I think what continues to 160 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:22,160 drive and motivate me, you know, on a day-to-day, week to week, 161 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,320 month to month basis is just seeing how many lives are healed 162 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,240 and transformed and working with psychedelics, especially when 163 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,520 it's done with a level of intentionality, you know, an 164 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:39,560 attunement to safety. But yeah, I just, I there's a 165 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:41,840 lot of personal development hacks out there. 166 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,240 There's a lot of healing hacks out there. 167 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,560 There's a lot of techniques and psychedelics for me are one of 168 00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:52,680 the one of the big ones that can really help us to to move 169 00:09:52,680 --> 00:09:53,800 forward in a positive way. I. 170 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,280 Love it, man. I feel like there's nothing more 171 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,560 fulfilling in life than when you have figured out what your 172 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:01,960 calling is and you dive into it with 100% intentionality. 173 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,960 So it's awesome that you've found that at the young age that 174 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,160 you have and now you have your whole life to just continue to 175 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,560 pursue it. Yeah, and I I really, you know 176 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:15,680 the even the name 3rd wave suggests there was a first wave 177 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:19,640 and a second wave and so the first wave of psychedelics was 178 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,960 the ancient indigenous use. So what a lot of people don't 179 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,480 recognize is that we've been using psychedelics for thousands 180 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,240 of years potentially 10s of thousands of years as a as a 181 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:34,160 human species. The second wave being the 60s in 182 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,520 the counterculture when LSD was invented and came on the scene 183 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,080 and that was sort of like oh wow it's back like we're we're back 184 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,840 to to this state in this experience again. 185 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,120 But that was associated with the Vietnam War protest, the anti 186 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,520 war movement in the 60s. So it got shut down very quick. 187 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,400 And so I've always looked at the 3rd wave as how are we 188 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,360 developing the educational frameworks? 189 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:02,080 How are we honoring the sort of indigenous or ancient roots that 190 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:08,360 this comes from and creating a a path forward to fully legalize 191 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:14,200 psychedelics so that any adult basically could access these in 192 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,280 a safe and responsible way. And so for me that's really what 193 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,040 the 3rd way represents. And so it's like, you know, so 194 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,040 far it's been media and education and retreats and you 195 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,840 know trainings. But you know I'm, I can't wait 196 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,800 till we can roll out supplements like micro dosing supplements. 197 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,280 I'm looking at you know, more and more real estate potential 198 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,040 in terms of actually buying centers and buying land and 199 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,840 developing that. Psychedelics are just sort of 200 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,480 the the opener. They're the catalyst, but the 201 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,520 way that they're shifting and changing society is pretty 202 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:47,320 substantial at this point in time. 203 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,920 And it's a lot of, there's a lot of exciting, there's a lot of 204 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,400 stuff to be excited about that's at the cutting edge of of human 205 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:53,840 potential. Yeah, I have. 206 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,680 I have no doubt man. I have certainly seen the 207 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:59,560 writing on the wall. I think going about it with a 208 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:04,360 very educated, intentional, well informed approach is certainly 209 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,880 the the way to do it when it comes to. 210 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,280 I got a couple questions here. So with you being as well 211 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,920 travelled as you are, what what is the the stigma towards 212 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,520 psychedelics in other regions of the world and what would you 213 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:23,080 define it as here in the States? So the States is definitely a 214 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,000 cultural leader. I would say the United States 215 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:32,200 and Canada and Australia are the the most progressive countries 216 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,920 in many ways. So in the United States, Oregon 217 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,640 and Colorado have legalized psilocybin mushrooms. 218 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,160 There's several cities that have decriminalized plant medicines, 219 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,120 which essentially means that if you possess them, you can't get 220 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,560 thrown in jail or get arrested, you just get written a citation. 221 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,520 In Canada, it's become more accessible and available, so you 222 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,280 can go into, you know, even in places like Toronto and Ottawa 223 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,440 and Montreal, there are shops that are openly selling 224 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:03,960 psilocybin mushrooms. Now. 225 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,200 It's still illegal according to Canadian law, but, you know, the 226 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,240 government really doesn't do much about it. 227 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,320 And then in the EU, you know, the EU tends to move a little 228 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,560 bit slower. They've started to invest some 229 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:20,240 money. The government has invested 230 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:25,080 money into psychedelic research. But I would say Europe's 231 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,320 probably anywhere from three to seven years behind the United 232 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,240 States and Canada in terms of its progressive mentality. 233 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,280 And then Australia's a really interesting one because 234 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,360 Australia traditionally is actually not all that 235 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,440 progressive. It tends to be a little more 236 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,640 conservative. But last year Australia was the 237 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:49,320 first country to make MDMA and psilocybin medically available 238 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,400 through a psychiatrist or a clinician's office. 239 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,240 So for the last six months those two have been legal. 240 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,760 But if you, you know, if you start going in and then Israel's 241 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,600 another one, Israel's very much on the cutting edge of 242 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,280 psychedelic research and it's really unfortunate all the the 243 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,400 sort. Of yeah, just everything that's 244 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,400 happening there right now. But they're continuing to chart 245 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,200 a path forward for for psychedelic research in in 246 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,040 Israel. But you know, if you look at 247 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:20,760 Asia, if you look at basically all of Asia, if you look at 248 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:25,160 Africa, it's highly stigmatized still. 249 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,240 There's not a lot of education about it. 250 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:28,840 You kind of hear about things here and there. 251 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,440 Like, I know Thailand just legalized cannabis. 252 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,920 So there are certain pockets that are more progressive, but 253 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,800 generally speaking, people either just don't know about 254 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,080 them, right? Psychedelics didn't really have 255 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:48,080 their heyday in Asia and Africa. You know, it was mostly in the 256 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,840 United States and Europe. The LSD was widely used in the 257 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,440 50s and 60s. So a lot of people just don't 258 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,680 even know about it. And those who know about it 259 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,920 would likely think that these are, you know, drugs and they're 260 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,760 illegal drugs, so it's better not to to touch them at all. 261 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,160 And then South America's really interesting, right? 262 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,440 That would be the one other region of the world where, 263 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,440 particularly because there's a rich indigenous use of 264 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,240 psychedelics with ayahuasca, with something called yopo, with 265 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:19,240 peyote, with San Pedro, a lot of these entheogenic plant 266 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:24,640 medicines are protected in Peru, Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, 267 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,840 Mexico, right. And so specific geographic 268 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:32,880 locations that have historical use, specifically the indigenous 269 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,480 peoples of these places that have historical use. 270 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,440 A lot of these things are actually legal in those states. 271 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,040 And so that really makes up a bulk of what we could call 272 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,600 psychedelic tourism. And in fact, on 3rd wave we have 273 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,200 a directory of legal retreats and clinics that people can 274 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,040 check out if they're interested in potentially attending this. 275 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:56,080 But a lot of psychedelic tourism happens in Peru and the Amazon, 276 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,200 Brazil, Ecuador, Colombia, Jamaica, Jamaica has legal 277 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,280 psilocybin mushrooms because they didn't want to sign a 278 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,960 certain law way back. They're like, we're Jamaica, we 279 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,960 do whatever the fuck we want. If we want to have mushrooms 280 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,160 legal, we're going to have mushrooms be legal and so and 281 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,880 then Mexico as well and then you know places like Costa Rica, 282 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,560 it's also quite accessible and available. 283 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,160 So mostly this side of the world, I would say mostly the 284 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:27,520 Americas, a lot of progressive sort of mentalities around it, a 285 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:32,240 lot of access. The rest of the world, either 286 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,280 they just don't feel like they need it, or they're just not 287 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,680 really aware that, you know, it's a it's a potential option 288 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,720 for them. Do you feel like America is 289 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,720 pretty progressive and open to it as a whole, or is it just 290 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:50,360 these certain hotspots like in California, where it's just 291 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:56,720 gaining a lot more attention? So the University of Cal 292 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,480 Berkeley. So Berkeley did a study that 293 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:00,960 they published maybe six months ago. 294 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,680 And in that study they they surveyed 1000 people from across 295 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,400 all demographics and perspectives in the United 296 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,800 States and they found that 61% of those individuals support it 297 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,319 legal psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. 298 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,640 So even if we assume that's a little inflated or it might be a 299 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:26,760 little high and and we were to say you know give or take 10 300 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,840 percentage points, that still means the majority of Americans 301 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:36,360 are supportive of legal psychedelic assisted 302 00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:39,000 psychotherapy. Now granted California's the 303 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,920 most populous state in the United States, so the cross 304 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,480 section would be higher there. You know the chances of a a a 305 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:54,600 state like Alabama or Georgia or Mississippi or you know Oklahoma 306 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,760 legalizing psychedelics anytime soon, I think is it's not very 307 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,080 likely. But the the caveat is once the 308 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,880 FDA approves MDMA for psychedelic assisted 309 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,280 psychotherapy, which will likely happen by the end of this year, 310 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,960 all of these states, from what I understand, will be legally 311 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,200 obligated to provide it. And in fact, there's a really 312 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,160 interesting substance called ketamine. 313 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,320 And ketamine is classically known as an anesthetic. 314 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,480 People often think of it as a horse tranquilizer, as sort of a 315 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,720 negative connotation. But ketamine is one of the 316 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,440 safest anesthetics that's used in emergency rooms. 317 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:36,400 It's been used for over 60 years and it has an immediate 318 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,680 antidepressant effect. And so ketamine is currently 319 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,200 legally available. A lot of people are 320 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,000 transitioning off psychiatric medications by working with 321 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,400 ketamine, and that's available in basically all 50 states. 322 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,720 Currently. You can get legal ketamine 323 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,760 treatment. And so I think a lot of people 324 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,560 don't even recognize or realize that actually this is currently 325 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:02,360 available and in the next 5 or 10 years there's just going to 326 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:06,840 be more types of psychedelics that become legally available. 327 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,080 So ketamine's legally available, MDMA by the end of this year, 328 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,720 you know mushrooms are legal in Oregon and Colorado. 329 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,200 The FDA will likely approve psilocybin, which is the act of 330 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,200 alkaloid in in mushrooms by 2027. 331 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,560 So by the end of this decade you could see as many as three, if 332 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,400 not more psychedelics being legally approved by the FDA and 333 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,240 available to pretty much everywhere in the United States 334 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,200 and thus, you know, Canada and Europe, because the governing 335 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,480 agencies of Canada and Europe often rely on the decision 336 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,040 making by the FDA to also make these substances medically 337 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,640 available. So again, I would expect that by 338 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,640 the end of this decade, pretty much if you live anywhere in the 339 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,800 quote UN quote western world, you'll have legal access to to 340 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,400 psychedelics. Gotcha. 341 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,880 Gotcha. So when it comes to going about 342 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,840 using these the right way as opposed to the wrong way like 343 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,920 I'm a big proponent for doing this deep internal self work 344 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:06,400 without using any outside. Crutches, 'cause I feel like a 345 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,720 lot of people just immediately turn to a pill or a potion or 346 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,080 something of that nature. And now that said, I can 347 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,800 absolutely get behind using one of these natural plant 348 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,480 substances in place of something like alcohol or hard drugs that 349 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:22,720 do have an addictive tendency. How? 350 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,520 How does one navigate those waters? 351 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,400 Like how does one differentiate when they would be best off best 352 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,400 suited for something like a psychedelic as opposed to an 353 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,400 alternative option? Like how do you kind of instruct 354 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,480 and encourage people to to navigate those waters? 355 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,520 Yeah, I mean it really starts with education. 356 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,120 So people should have an awareness of this is how it may 357 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:45,000 impact you. This is the subjective 358 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,040 experience of working with ketamine or MDMA or or 359 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,800 psilocybin. These are some of the potential 360 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,560 benefits. These are also some of the 361 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,040 potential risks. I think you know, for people in 362 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,960 particular who have a mental health indication they would 363 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:02,640 want to talk to a medical professional, ideally a 364 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,480 psychiatrist, before they work with psychedelics. 365 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,280 If someone has depression or they have, you know, a certain 366 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:14,360 type of anxiety or PTSD. Also, people who have either a 367 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:17,520 predisposition or they've experienced before some level of 368 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,960 psychosis or schizophrenia should never work with 369 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,520 psychedelics, and those who have bipolar or borderline should 370 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:29,120 also be very careful in working with psychedelics. 371 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:32,080 It can be helpful, but it's you really got to know what you're 372 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,240 doing and you really got to do it with a a medical professional 373 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,840 if that's the case. So I think that's probably for 374 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,880 those who have a mental health indication. 375 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:47,040 By and large, it's quite safe, and something like psilocybin 376 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,440 mushrooms are even perfectly safe to take if you're on Prozac 377 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,440 or Zoloft or Lexapro. Pretty much any any medication 378 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,960 is safe to take with with mushrooms except lithium. 379 00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,920 If you're on lithium, you don't want to touch the Nygidelics 380 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:04,680 whatsoever. However, this is where the the 381 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,800 support of a medical professional is really helpful, 382 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:12,000 because psilocybin mushrooms is much different than MDMA, also 383 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,240 known as Ecstasy, right? You can't take MDMA if you're on 384 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,480 certain psychiatric medications because it could cause something 385 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,560 called serotonin syndrome. So anyone who has a clinical 386 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,080 diagnosis, who's potentially interested in psychedelics 387 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,120 working with psychedelics, what I always say is talk with your 388 00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:32,360 psychiatrist. If your psychiatrist really 389 00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:35,000 doesn't know anything about psychedelics, which is rare 390 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:40,240 these days in the United States, then go to our website, go to 391 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,040 our directory at 3rd Wave and we have clinicians on there that 392 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,680 you can connect with and get in touch with, if that's something 393 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,680 that you're interested in doing. I think, you know, for those who 394 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,440 don't have a clinical diagnosis, you know, I've, I've never been 395 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,880 clinically diagnosed. Like everyone, at times I 396 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,160 struggle with, you know, depression or anxiety. 397 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,240 You know, there are sometimes days or weeks where I feel quite 398 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,080 low, But I've never been on an antidepressant. 399 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,800 I've never been diagnosed in any significant way. 400 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,960 Usually what I tell those folks is it can be helpful to have a 401 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,160 coach or a practitioner who supports you. 402 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,560 You don't need a medical professional necessarily, but it 403 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,560 helps to have a coach or or a practitioner who can support you 404 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,800 and to start loan, go slow, right. 405 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,080 And so that's why I've talked so much about microdosing in 406 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,320 particular, because microdosing is taking 110th of a regular 407 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,600 dose, doing it two or three times a week for maybe a month 408 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,240 or so, seeing how you feel, seeing what you notice. 409 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,560 And then if you're like, OK, this is something that I feel 410 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,680 like I benefited from. This is interesting. 411 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,920 Then you can slowly go higher. The metaphor that I that I use 412 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,000 to describe that is when we learn how to swim, you know, we 413 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,880 often learn how to swim in the shallow end. 414 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,840 We have our these swimmies on, we have a swimming teacher. 415 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,920 And then as we become more comfortable in the water at a 416 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,360 young age, we go deeper and deeper into the deep end. 417 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,520 And I think microdosing is a similar bridge for people who 418 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,040 are quite new to psychedelics that a lot of people are 419 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,200 intimidated by. What if I have a bad trip? 420 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,760 What if I experience ego death? What if I freak out and, you 421 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,280 know, I'm paranoid? What if I have a lot of anxiety? 422 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:25,760 And so usually with people who have a lot of these, like, what 423 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:26,880 if this happens? What if that happens? 424 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,400 I just tell them, start low, go slow. 425 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,120 You can always take more. You can't necessarily take less. 426 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:39,560 And so that I think is a good, a good general frame of reference. 427 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,640 And then it really comes down to what's your intention. 428 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,600 You know, for a lot of people who have a clinical diagnosis, 429 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,920 let's say they've had depression for five or ten years and Prozac 430 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,680 and Lexapro and Wellbutrin and these other, you know, 431 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,200 psychiatric medications aren't necessarily cutting it. 432 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:57,720 You know, their intention is to heal. 433 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,040 Their intention is to feel better. 434 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,640 Their intention is to feel alive, to feel more vital. 435 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,440 Great. That's a phenomenal intention. 436 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,040 Their intention may be to wean off psychiatric medications, but 437 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,280 because there's so much energy moving through, when we work 438 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,520 with psychedelics, Tim Ferriss, who's a well known podcaster, 439 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,680 calls it nuclear power. It's like you're accessing 440 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,600 nuclear power. There's so much energy that 441 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,680 moves through. You wanna you wanna wrecked it 442 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,400 somewhere. You want to have an orientation, 443 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,360 you want to have a goal. You want to have a have an 444 00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:29,000 objective, a a place where that energy is going. 445 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,160 Because psychedelics are fantastic catalysts. 446 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,680 They can really get you going, they can kick start productivity 447 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,520 and motivation and all these things. 448 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,640 But you still got to drive the car. 449 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,440 You know, psychedelics are like premium gasoline, but you're 450 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,080 still driving the car and so you still have to know where you're 451 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,120 going. How can you support yourself? 452 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:54,920 What are your intentions on a day-to-day or week to week or 453 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,240 month by month basis? And the more focus, the better. 454 00:25:58,240 --> 00:25:59,640 It's just like in business, right? 455 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,840 When we get too distracted, when we have all these initiatives 456 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,640 going on, nothing gets done that well. 457 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,600 But when we're healing, or when we're looking for 458 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:12,280 transformation, having a very clear singular focus on, OK, if 459 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,320 I work with psychedelics, I'd really love to heal this 460 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,560 depression. Or maybe you've come to realize 461 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,720 that your depression is somehow related to some form of 462 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,200 childhood trauma and so you. So maybe the intention is even I 463 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,200 want to confront and forgive and heal that traumatic experience 464 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,320 that that happened to me when I was a child. 465 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,840 Or the intention could be a lot of the people that I work with 466 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,200 because I do someone on one coaching myself. 467 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,560 They're CE OS, they're leaders, they're creatives. 468 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,120 They're interested in performance. 469 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:46,440 They're interested in well-being. 470 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:51,520 Maybe the the, the focus or the objective is write, write the 471 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,280 first chapter of my book. Or maybe it's, you know, get a 472 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,000 sense of how I can love myself more and take better care of 473 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,640 myself as a leader instead of go, go, go all the time. 474 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,160 How do I find more balance on a week to week basis so I always 475 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,960 feel rested and and recharge. So that intention matters a lot 476 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,040 because oftentimes what we notice with psychedelic 477 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,240 experiences is if you don't have an intention, then it's just a 478 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,720 lot of information without the necessary context or structure 479 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,760 around it and at that. And when that's the case, it's 480 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,280 sort of like a fire hose that you're just putting your mouth 481 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,360 up to. You can become overwhelmed very 482 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:33,000 quickly. But if you have a context of, 483 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,480 OK, this is the general direction that I would like for 484 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,840 this to head, these are the questions that I'm interested in 485 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,520 asking myself. Then psychedelics can be a 486 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,880 really great ally in that process of awareness and self 487 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,480 discovery. Makes total sense with with the 488 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,960 people that you've worked with over the years, what would you 489 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,360 say like the average demographic of your client pool consists of? 490 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:56,920 Like, are those typically people in the business sector that are 491 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,400 looking for more creative inspiration or are they people 492 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,040 that are struggling with some type of mental disorder? 493 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,400 Like what? What is the general general 494 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,600 demographic? Yeah, I would say the the ones 495 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,680 that I tend to work the most with, the ones that are most 496 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,120 drawn to me are people who are going through some sort of 497 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:16,760 professional or career transition. 498 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,200 And and typically the common thread is they've been quite 499 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,080 successful professionally. They've exited a company, 500 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,960 they've worked high up and you know big tech. 501 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,200 They have had a successful either corporate or legal or 502 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:38,240 medical career and they want to either fully transition or weave 503 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:44,200 in, you know, becoming a coach or practitioner, someone who 504 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,320 works with psychedelics or maybe not even works as psychedelics. 505 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,040 Just as interested in in how do I find work that's more 506 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,160 meaningful, right? How do I, how do I pursue 507 00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:00,440 projects, creative projects that are not necessarily just to have 508 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,080 an exit or just for a certain type of status or just to, you 509 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,880 know, subconsciously receive validation from my parents. 510 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,640 What if I pursued work that I felt was truly going to change 511 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,960 the world in a substantial and significant way that I found to 512 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,480 be meaningful, that was very helpful for individuals. 513 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,400 So those are those tend to be personally the the clients that 514 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,320 I that I work with most and they're at various stages. 515 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,160 Some are still in their careers and jobs looking to transition 516 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,920 out. Some have already transitioned 517 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,640 and are sort of in that liminal space in between in terms of 518 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,480 where do I go from here. And the reason psychedelics are 519 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,120 so helpful in that process is because when we work with 520 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,680 psychedelics they they often facilitate A deconditioning 521 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,840 process. So the the, the best way to 522 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,280 think about it is as we grow up, you know, adolescence, late 523 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,840 adolescence, teenage years, late teenage years into college and 524 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,960 university, we wear so much armor that's been put on us by 525 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,840 our parents, by our friends, by our high school, by the culture 526 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,240 that we live in, by the community that we were raised 527 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,640 in. So by time we're actually ready 528 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,360 to become a full adult. We're wearing everybody else's 529 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,680 clothes by that point in time, right? 530 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,120 And so everything we're pursuing is actually, in most cases it's 531 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,920 not truly ours. We're pursuing it because we 532 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,600 were told a story that we should pursue it even if we didn't 533 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,840 necessarily find a degree of resonance of this. 534 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,840 And of course this is most common with parents, right? 535 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,160 Parents who want their children to become something, whether 536 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,400 whether it's explicit or implicit, there can be a a quite 537 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,120 a burden there and quite a sense of I have to do this because I 538 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,080 can't let these people down or whatever else that might be. 539 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,960 When we work with psychedelics, they how they essentially for 540 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,520 many people are the first time that we can take off all that 541 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,760 armor. We can remove all of the things 542 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,880 that have been put on to us by things external to us and 543 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,400 instead really start to ask the questions of what do I want to 544 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,080 create, What is most important to me? 545 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,760 How do I want to live? If it didn't matter what anyone 546 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,320 else thought, what would I pursue as a creative task and 547 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,120 projects? Because that then is our gift, 548 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:12,840 right? And that's the greatest gift 549 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:14,400 that we can give. It's something that's very 550 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,400 aligned. It's an Arizona genius. 551 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,840 We feel a deep sort of devotion. We're calling to it. 552 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,640 And then we're pursuing A vocation rather than work. 553 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,840 We're pursuing A vocation that feels very aligned and 554 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,560 meaningful. And then regardless of whether 555 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:34,680 we make you know $1,000,000 or whether we make $100,000, as 556 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,000 long as we feel like we have the necessary resources to you know 557 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,720 feed our family and have a nice home and these sorts of things 558 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:47,000 then we can actually pursue projects that that we think are 559 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,480 very meaningful that we that that that help other people that 560 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,880 are impactful. We're not just clocking in and 561 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,640 clocking out so we can appease you know, the the sort of 562 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,480 subconscious of our of our parental conditioning. 563 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,400 But we're really looking at how can we create and build 564 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:08,160 something that we feel like we want to do more than anything 565 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,600 that excites us to do. And that's helpful for for other 566 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,040 people. Why do you think think some 567 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,080 people are able to figure that out without any exogenous 568 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,400 substances, whereas a lot of people need to have that 569 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,080 stimulus to to kind of have that deep interflexion and figure out 570 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,240 who they are and where they're going? 571 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,400 That's an that's an interesting question. 572 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:44,560 I think my initial response is most people do not pursue work 573 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,600 that they personally find meaningful. 574 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,120 I think we're certainly, I consider myself to be in the 575 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:59,040 minority of individuals who pursue work that, you know, I 576 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,720 really loved day in day. I mean granted there are 577 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,400 challenges of course, but like day in, day out, I really love 578 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,520 what I get to do. And I think it's just like, like 579 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,480 I remember reading a recent survey that as many as 60 to 70% 580 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,720 of people employees in the United States are dissatisfied. 581 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,320 Yeah, it's pretty. Sad with their jobs. 582 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:18,760 It's pretty disheartening for sure. 583 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,200 Yeah, it's super disheartening. So I think on the one hand it's 584 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:27,800 we're in the minority. UPS I go, I mean good parenting, 585 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,160 honestly. Like just being raised in an 586 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,040 environment. Like for me, my parents were 587 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,920 always like play the violin. You know, I played soccer. 588 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,160 I I did well in academics. They pushed me, but they weren't 589 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,640 overbearing, they weren't intense or overly crazy. 590 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,120 And they always told me, look, regardless of what you do, we'll 591 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,760 be happy for you and we'll love you, right. 592 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,440 So I never had this sort of external pressure of you got to 593 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,520 be a doctor, you got to be a lawyer, you got to make certain 594 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,360 amount of money. You know, I grew up very middle 595 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,200 class. You know, my parents drove 15 to 596 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,520 20 year old cars. My mom was a social worker. 597 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,000 My dad worked in higher Ed at A at a local university that I 598 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,480 ended up attending. So for me, I was just raised and 599 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,760 nurtured in this very American middle class family where we had 600 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,840 enough money to put food on the table. 601 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:26,199 But you know we we were not necessarily cleaning up, you 602 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:30,000 know. And so I think that was a great 603 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,760 impression from a young age. And I think in in many ways This 604 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,520 is why a middle class is so important because we learn to 605 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:45,679 many of us learn to pursue things that have some some level 606 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:48,360 of alignment. And then I think you get into 607 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,480 like, you know, the student debt crisis, right? 608 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,719 There are a lot of people who have to pay it off student debt. 609 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,560 I, I, I again was fortunate. My dad worked at the university 610 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,320 that I attended. I came out of university with no 611 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,760 debt whatsoever. So I was able to instantly move 612 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,080 to Turkey to teach English there and pursue this entrepreneurial 613 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,600 path from the age of 24 because I didn't have to get, you know, 614 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,400 a sales job or go get my MBA so I could pay off 150 or $200,000 615 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,760 in debt. So I think we do currently in 616 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,040 our former, in our current structure and system, have this 617 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,240 sort of modern form of indentured servitude where 618 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:28,720 people basically have to work jobs that they hate, you know, 619 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:31,000 back to Fight Club, right? We got to work for the fucking 620 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,040 man to make shit that nobody fucking wants. 621 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,560 Because we we find ourselves stuck in this, this sort of 622 00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:45,960 consumerist matrix of sorts. So that's when it then gets more 623 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,600 interesting because it's like, OK, if I was in that case, if I 624 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,880 was in that situation, there's a likelihood that if I had a bunch 625 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,160 of debt, I would be much more oriented towards getting a job 626 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,360 immediately and getting that paid off so I could be fully 627 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,920 free. So I think it's partly 628 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,760 structural, it's partly upbringing, and then it's also 629 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,440 partly just disposition. Like, there are some people who 630 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,680 they want to be poets, they want to be artists, they want to be 631 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,040 writers, they want to be musicians. 632 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,960 There are some people who want to work in finance who you know, 633 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,920 love numbers and spreadsheets. So I think some of us are just 634 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,440 naturally drawn to jobs and careers where we make more money 635 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,000 and some of us are not. And the fundamental truth is 636 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,000 because of the system that we're in, for better or worse, I'm, 637 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,200 I'm part of it and and participatory in it. 638 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:37,240 But for the the those who make really good money tend to have 639 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:39,600 more freedom and opportunity. And so a lot of these people 640 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,080 that I work with, I'm 33, a lot of my clients are in their 40s 641 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:48,240 or 50s and they're more or less financially independent because 642 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:50,440 they've worked in finance, because they've worked in big 643 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:55,000 tech or rarely they've exited a company and now they're going 644 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,640 OK. I thought getting wealthy was 645 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,040 would fulfill me and it hasn't whatsoever. 646 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,320 Where is real fulfillment? Where is real meaning? 647 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,080 And that's where I think psychedelics almost act as a 648 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,960 correction course. They almost they help these 649 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,880 people to remember certain things about what actually 650 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,680 matters in life that many of us have not been taught or we've 651 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:22,720 we've completely forgotten. Yeah. 652 00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:24,560 No, I think it's all very fair statement. 653 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,200 I feel like we are certainly finding ourselves a society in 654 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:33,280 this Matrix, As you say, that is just unfulfilling, arduous work. 655 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,680 That's and for me, it's like I feel so blessed because I know 656 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,520 exactly who I am, what I'm capable of, and what I want to 657 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,360 pursue with my time. Like I wake up early and I'm 658 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,360 excited every single day. But I know so many people, we 659 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,200 all do that hate it when the alarm goes off. 660 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,520 They hate it when they have to go to work and that just is no 661 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,280 way to live. So if you know psychedelics can 662 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,160 act as a catalyst to break them free of that matrix and thought 663 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:04,240 pattern, to see that there is a lot more to life than the four 664 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:07,280 corners that they feel trapped in, I feel like that makes total 665 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,840 sense. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's it's 666 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,400 an opportunity, it's an opening. And I think the other thing 667 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,880 that's important to emphasize is psychedelics can be great for 668 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,120 this. Breathwork is a phenomenal tool 669 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,360 for this. Fasting for five days or six 670 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,720 days is a phenomenal tool for this. 671 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,120 We're there are so many modalities that can provide us 672 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,720 with a new perspective. They require a certain level of 673 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:40,880 intensity and it's more about the state that it facilitates 674 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,200 than the modality in and of itself. 675 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,120 And the reason I love meditation and breath work and yoga and 676 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:53,160 fasting and these non drug, non psychedelic tools is because at 677 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,000 the end of the day that's that's the foundation, right. 678 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,800 Psychedelics here and there are great to work with. 679 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:06,160 Microdosing again, taking these low doses and doing it 2-3 times 680 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,000 a week. I, you know, I've been 681 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,040 microdosing for nine years. No, not straight but in and out 682 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,200 for nine years. So I take these low doses and 683 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,560 they're just great on a on an everyday basis, but the high 684 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,640 doses like really doing deep inner work. 685 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,240 You know for me that's once every six months at this point, 686 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,040 once every nine months I really set aside time and usually it's 687 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,000 with ayahuasca. Now I'll I'll I'll work with 688 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:38,600 particular quarenderos, healers, shamans from Peru and ayahuasca 689 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,160 has been a really great teacher in that way. 690 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,040 But again, it's it's not often that I'm doing this. 691 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,400 My day-to-day is meditation is so fundamentally key. 692 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,920 Breathwork, cold plunges are so fundamentally key. 693 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,320 And then fasting every now and then is something I really, 694 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:56,800 really lean on. And of course, saunas. 695 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,600 I'm like in the in the sauna at this point, four or five times a 696 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,920 week. Yeah, I feel like just simply 697 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,200 disconnecting. Like I just got in doing a a 698 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,320 competition prep and I was incredibly depleted. 699 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,920 And every day after I trained before I would allow myself to 700 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,800 eat a meal, I would just do a ton of breath work, prayer, 701 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,800 meditation, mindfulness and like that. 702 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,840 That's like such a transformative moment cause like 703 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,840 you're able to just disconnect from the the hurry nature that 704 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,280 we all find ourselves trapped in. 705 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,240 And so few people take the time to do that. 706 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:31,680 But that is where the real work is done. 707 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,560 So if you can carve that out and prioritize it, you can figure 708 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,000 out why you're doing the things you're doing in the first place. 709 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,680 Yeah, only and it's it's not a huge commitment. 710 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,120 It could be 15 minutes, it could be 30 minutes. 711 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:53,400 But for me, that time to myself is so necessary if I'm going to 712 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,760 just generally be happy and healthy and and you know, get up 713 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,640 in the morning with with energy for the day ahead. 714 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,360 Totally so. And it when it comes to 715 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,720 different substance, to different modalities of therapy 716 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,440 you you've done, you said LSD, ayahuasca, psilocybin, how, how 717 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,840 would you compare all of these? Like, where would somebody 718 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,440 start? What? 719 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,080 I mean, I'm sure this can be highly individualized, but like 720 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,720 how did certain substances impact the brain differently 721 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:23,920 than others? Like how would you kind of 722 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,040 describe each of these different substances? 723 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,400 Yeah, so the best way to think about this is the Lotus flower 724 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,160 metaphor. So the Lotus flower is the 725 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,560 symbol of enlightenment in Buddhism, and it represents sort 726 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,000 of the full blossoming of human consciousness. 727 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,520 And so the Lotus flower metaphor has three parts. 728 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:52,000 It has the soil, it has the seed and it has the blossoming, the 729 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,320 full blossoming and flourishing of that seed. 730 00:41:54,880 --> 00:42:03,440 So substances like MDMA and ketamine are ideal as to help 731 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,560 till the soil. And so before we plant that new 732 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,680 seed of self with psychedelics like mushrooms, LSD, ayahuasca, 733 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,720 we first need to make sure that the soil that we're planting it 734 00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:17,960 in is very healthy. And so this is a metaphor for 735 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:22,160 trauma work that were people who are new to psychedelics. 736 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,640 If, if and there's all, we all have trauma to some degree, but 737 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,920 especially if it's a big T trauma first, doing that 738 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:34,240 necessary healing work with MDMA and ketamine is a great starting 739 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:36,000 point. And the reason it's MDMA and 740 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,400 ketamine is because those tend to be the easiest, the the least 741 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,440 intense, the most euphoric. And so for beginners, it 742 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,000 provides a little bit of a safe and soft landing pad to do that 743 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,240 necessary trauma healing. Once we have healthy soil, 744 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,880 that's when we plant the new seed of self and you can think 745 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:01,360 of that new seed as a death and rebirth process. 746 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:06,080 So the reason psilocybin mushrooms and LSD are so 747 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:11,360 effective at treating depression, addiction, PTSD, all 748 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,520 these mental health conditions is because of their ego 749 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,920 dissolving properties. And a lot of mental health 750 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,760 conditions are related to over rumination. 751 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,680 You're just thinking too much. The brain is always turned on. 752 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,520 You've developed these ruts in the brain that just thoughts go 753 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,240 down automatically. So when you take a psychedelic 754 00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:35,000 it interrupts that process. It's almost like a brand new 755 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,000 carpet of snow of powder has fallen on a mountainside and all 756 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,400 the usual ruts get snowed over and all of a sudden you can 757 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,960 carve new paths and new ways down the mountains. 758 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,960 And so when we take a high dose of psychedelic, when we're 759 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,880 planting that new seed of self, it we we get an opportunity to 760 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:59,600 step out of those usual ruts and actually pave new paths, which 761 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,040 are new patterns of behavior, which are new habits, which are 762 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,880 new perspectives and ways of being. 763 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,760 And it happens through this ego dissolving process, the seed of 764 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,640 self. So once that seed is planted, 765 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,880 then we want to water it right then. 766 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,240 Then it needs sunlight and so water, sunlight, nutrients, 767 00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:21,280 that's what we call integration. Those are the practices like we 768 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,440 already talked about, meditation, breath work, cold 769 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:29,160 plunge, sauna, journaling, diet, exercise, sleep. 770 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,520 These practices help us to integrate the high dose 771 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,320 experience because if we don't integrate it, then a lot of the 772 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:41,040 insights that we get just sort of go away, you know, whereas we 773 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,000 want to capture those insights, we actually want those insights 774 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,120 to inform the new person that we're becoming. 775 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,640 And then you know as the seed is fully growing then it has an 776 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,720 opportunity to blossom and flourish. 777 00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:56,120 And so that's where substances like ayahuasca, which is a tea 778 00:44:56,120 --> 00:45:04,040 from the Amazon, San Pedro, which is a cacti from Peru, even 779 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:10,880 something like 5 MEODMT, which is the venom of a toad in 780 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:12,600 Mexico. Don't ask me how they found out 781 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,520 that if you smoked toad venom you would get incredibly high. 782 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,280 That's beyond me. But these these are the more 783 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,640 intense we could say like plant medicine, psychedelics, 784 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,200 ayahuasca, San Pedro 5 MEO. And that's where you've tilled 785 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,760 the soil, you've planted the new seed of self. 786 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,640 You've done a lot of the beginner and intermediate work. 787 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,520 Now I with ayahuasca with five, MEO with San Pedro. 788 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:42,560 That's the more advanced work that you can get into in terms 789 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,720 of the different ways then that they interact with the body and 790 00:45:45,720 --> 00:45:46,760 brain. That would be a whole other 791 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:52,560 episode in itself, but ketamine is most effective at immediately 792 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,320 interrupting the the the sort of default mode network of the 793 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,080 brain. In fact, clinical research shows 794 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,080 that ketamine is probably the best intervention for 795 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,720 suicidality. If someone you know is feeling 796 00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:08,880 suicidal, get them immediately to do ketamine, It will help it 797 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,880 almost immediately. Whereas MDMA is more of a heart 798 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,400 opener, what they call an empathogen, which is So it helps 799 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,320 to be very bubbly, not bubbly but vulnerable. 800 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,160 You can talk about deep things, a lot of people use it within 801 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,000 relationships. LSD and psilocybin are the 802 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,440 classic psychedelics. They activate something called 803 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,960 the five HT 2A receptor, which if activated at a high enough 804 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,080 degree facilitates again this eco death, eco dissolving, death 805 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:38,480 and rebirth process. And then ayahuasca, San Pedro 806 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,520 and five Meo, they all kind of work in different ways. 807 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,800 Probably the the most relevant thing for this audience would be 808 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,600 specific to ayahuasca. That's most often done with an 809 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,960 indigenous shaman. It's a tea you drink. 810 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,280 It tastes quite nasty and people have a lot of purging with it 811 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,640 and a lot of what these, the sort of indigenous wisdom says 812 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,960 about ayahuasca is we're purging because there's we need to get, 813 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,320 we need, we need to heal and we're we're we've repressed or 814 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,520 suppressed emotions, stories, feelings. 815 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,360 And so when we vomit it up, we release it. 816 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,680 It's the it's the physical catharsis of those emotions and 817 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,080 those memories which can be incredibly healing. 818 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,800 Gotcha, gotcha. What about DMT? 819 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,080 There's a lot of talk around that too. 820 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:29,600 So DMT is the active ingredient in Ayahuasca and so it's and 821 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,200 there's actually 2 DMTS and get very confusing. 822 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:38,560 NNDMT is is the substance that you smoke and you go into these 823 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:45,600 sort of machine elves, fractals, other dimensions. 5 MEODMT is 824 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,160 the the toad venom that I talked about and that's just white 825 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,280 bliss, white light unity, consciousness. 826 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,040 And so when you drink ayahuasca, it's sort of like a NNDMT 827 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:57,840 experience. What most of us would know is 828 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,200 DMT. It's like ADMT experience for 829 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,880 six hours. It's just kind of spread out and 830 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,600 not as intense. When you smoke DMT it's that 831 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,400 much more intense. But I I rarely talk about it 832 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,480 just because you know, Joe Rogan has talked about it quite a bit 833 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,280 and several other podcasters. But the fundamental truth is 834 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,560 getting accessing DMT is quite difficult. 835 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,400 You have to extract it either from Mimosa, Hostilis or Acacia. 836 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,680 Once you extract it, then you need to smoke it, but you have 837 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,400 to use like a glass pipe to smoke it and you have to smoke 838 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,800 it in a very particular way to get it correct. 839 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,480 So it can be a little complicated, but those who are 840 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:41,200 into DMT are really into DMT. Like like DMT is the thing. 841 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:46,680 And what's really cool is lately they've been doing extended 842 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,240 state intravenous DMT. So usually would, yeah. 843 00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:54,320 Usually when you smoke DMT it lasts for like 15 minutes. 844 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,560 You know, they call it the the business bands trip, but they've 845 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:02,000 started to do research out of a university in London where 846 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,200 they're providing DMT intravenously and people are in 847 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,440 that state for two, 3-4 hours at once. 848 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,120 So I and I think again this is the really cool thing about 849 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:19,080 psychedelics is this is really just the beginning stages. 850 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,280 Because if we had a whole another podcast episode, I could 851 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,960 go down all the rabbit holes of all the really crazy cutting 852 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:30,160 edge shit that I'm here about and subject to an intravenous 853 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,720 DMT is like one of them. Super fascinating. 854 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:39,040 Where's the the mass push back coming in the current day and 855 00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,520 age? Like what is what is the the 856 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,840 bureaucratic red tape that's having to be jumped through 857 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,320 currently as it sits? That's a great question. 858 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:54,080 So most people would think, oh you know, like big pharma would 859 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,440 go against this and they're going to hate this. 860 00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:02,000 And the the truth is there's already been one psychedelic 861 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,240 company that's been acquired by a pharmaceutical company. 862 00:50:05,240 --> 00:50:08,400 There are several other companies that have raised 863 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,280 hundreds of millions of dollars as biotech companies to get 864 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,880 psychedelics approved. It's likely that you could see 865 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,880 some pharmaceutical giants just buy out some of these 866 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:22,080 psychedelic sort of synthetic substances. 867 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,880 But at the end of the day, like pharmaceutical companies want, 868 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,000 they want to be effective, they want to make sure that what 869 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,240 they're doing works because sure they can continue to reap short 870 00:50:32,240 --> 00:50:35,920 term shareholder benefit. But more and more we're learning 871 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,320 that if you really want to be at in for the long term, you 872 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,640 actually have to. You actually have to help people 873 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:46,920 is my is my sense. So big Pharma is like not 874 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,760 they're they're aware of it, but I wouldn't say they're super 875 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,520 interested in it yet. The biggest challenge is more so 876 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,440 that psychedelics represent a totally new paradigm. 877 00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:01,080 And so the typical drug approval process for the FDA is you're 878 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,360 really looking at the drug and the drug itself. 879 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,560 So you know the gold standard and research is double-blind 880 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,360 placebo-controlled studies where this person gets the drug, this 881 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,760 other person gets the placebo. We see how they respond and if 882 00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,840 it's clinically significant, then the drug, it gets approved. 883 00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,680 Well, as you can imagine in clinical research and 884 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,200 psychedelics, it's pretty obvious who got the placebo and 885 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,080 who didn't get the placebo, right. 886 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,600 If you take 5 grams of mushrooms, you're probably going 887 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,520 to know you took 5 grams of mushrooms. 888 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,760 Whereas if you get the placebo, there's not going to be much 889 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:40,000 that happens whatsoever, right? And so that makes it very 890 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,080 difficult to do proper blinding. And so one of the criticisms 891 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:49,560 within, you know the FDA and clinical research is well, our 892 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:53,800 model is built for drugs, right. Our model is not necessarily 893 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,480 built for the drug plus the therapy and and what a lot of 894 00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:01,240 people in the psychedelic space would say is the drug helps, 895 00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:04,960 MDMA helps, ketamine helps. Mushrooms help, yes, they help 896 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,960 and a lot of the efficacy is the therapeutic support before and 897 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,760 after the experience because it can be so paradigm shifting that 898 00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:15,840 you need someone to process and support that. 899 00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,960 Whereas taking Prozac, it's just like you start to take Prozac 900 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,960 and yeah, maybe you still see a therapist, but you're not having 901 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,640 this life changing. At least most people aren't 902 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,920 having this sort of life changing, paradigm defining 903 00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,920 paradigm breaking moment or experience like they do with 904 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,640 psychedelics. So that's sort of the mainframe 905 00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,200 of criticism. It's do psychedelics actually 906 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,680 fit into this FDA pharmaceutical model? 907 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,640 And my personal belief is that they don't. 908 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:49,040 I think trying to stuff psychedelics into the FDA model 909 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,920 is like, it'd be like if Elon Musk was like, OK, we're going 910 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:58,720 to replace oil and gas by just doing the same thing they did 911 00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:02,240 before but with solar. And the fundamental truth is 912 00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:05,960 regenerative energy is way different in terms of how it's 913 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,800 created and built and distributed than oil and gas. 914 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,800 It's way less centralized, it's way more decentralized, it's 915 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:17,680 much more localized. So whereas oil and gas often 916 00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,280 rely on huge pipelines, they rely on, you know, you don't 917 00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:23,800 need that with regenerative energy necessarily. 918 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,600 So I think the opportunity with psychedelics is to say fuck the 919 00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:31,320 system. The FDA pharmaceutical system is 920 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:36,720 dead or dying. We really need to create a new 921 00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:40,560 paradigm of what it means to be, well, focusing on true 922 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:44,200 healthcare and not sick care, and actually helping people get 923 00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,640 to the bottom of their shit rather than just getting 924 00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,680 addicted on pills that they have to stay on for the next 30-40 925 00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,200 fifty years of their lives. I can 1000% get behind that 926 00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,440 message. How would you compare 927 00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,320 psychedelic sent to like THC? Like would you put them in a 928 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,000 similar category or do you consider them totally different? 929 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,120 You know, cannabis, if done at a high enough dose, can certainly 930 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:10,360 be psychedelic, especially if it's done only on an occasional 931 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,560 basis. You know, I know plenty of 932 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,640 people who lead cannabis ceremonies or cannabis circles 933 00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,920 where they'll have an eye mask, they'll lay down, they'll play 934 00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,080 music, they'll take a very high dose of an edible and they'll go 935 00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,000 on a journey. But I would say that's the 936 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,800 exception normally for people who are using cannabis. 937 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,320 Most people who are who are using cannabis are just, you 938 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,960 know, the smoking, spliff, smoking joints, taking edibles. 939 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:40,680 It's more of more of the new alcohol rather than it being the 940 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:47,080 substance that's used for therapeutic or for purposes of 941 00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,920 personal development. Now that doesn't mean that 942 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,240 enjoying yourself isn't is is bad. 943 00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:55,760 I think it just depends on the relationship with it. 944 00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,760 Cannabis can also be sticky, it can be addictive, whereas 945 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,920 psychedelics aren't typically addictive. 946 00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:06,280 So cannabis I would say it can be a psychedelic. 947 00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,880 Most people who use it don't use it as a psychedelic, they more 948 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:11,600 use it as an alcohol replacement. 949 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,800 And I would argue that cannabis is still healthier than alcohol 950 00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,760 overall. So it's a good starting point, 951 00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,480 but I really think the the sort of, you know, if we were to look 952 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:29,920 into this as bad, OK, better, I would consider mushrooms, 953 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:35,360 ayahuasca, even LSD, to be more on the better side because 954 00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,440 there's full clarity. It actually helps with 955 00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,960 neuroplasticity and neurogenesis, and there's not 956 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:47,400 really at all a potential for addiction with with psychedelic 957 00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,440 sentences. Yeah, I feel like avoiding the 958 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,960 new alcohol syndrome would be key. 959 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,200 I mean, everybody knows their their college roommate who just 960 00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:58,960 had zero ambition as a result of smoking weed all day. 961 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,360 And that's why I would want to hedge against for sure. 962 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,960 Because cannabis can also lower your especially for men out 963 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,560 there, it can lower your it lowers your if you use it often 964 00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:09,480 enough, it will lower your testosterone levels. 965 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:16,400 It will, you know, decrease your sort of sense of motivation if 966 00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,000 you smoke it. It's obviously not great for the 967 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,440 lungs, so there's certainly negative aspects to cannabis, 968 00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:26,640 but at this point anything is better than the sort of binge 969 00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,360 driven, alcohol driven society that that we live in. 970 00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,640 It's getting better, Cali Sober and a lot of people are drinking 971 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:36,360 less, but it's still by far the most popular drug besides 972 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,360 caffeine. And there's there's not been any 973 00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:44,520 known studies done on negative implications of like mushroom 974 00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,600 use overtime like. Are you aware of any negative 975 00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,200 adverse implications from that? No, over time, no. 976 00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:53,520 There's been some population studies from people who started 977 00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,000 doing LSD in the 60s and 70s and have been doing it for 50 or 60 978 00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,680 years, and there's been no adverse outcomes that people 979 00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,720 have noticed. Physiological nor psychological. 980 00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:06,280 There can be negative psychological outcomes with 981 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:07,960 psychedelics. As we talked about before, if 982 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,800 you have a predisposition to psychosis or schizophrenia, 983 00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,400 bipolar, borderline, you should be very, very careful with 984 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,200 psychedelics. And also there are some people 985 00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:20,480 who just unfortunately, the only time they ever did psychedelics 986 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,720 was that, like a music festival when they were 25, they were 987 00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:25,840 really drunk, they had a bunch of mushrooms with friends, they 988 00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,320 had a terrible experience. They wrote it off forever. 989 00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:30,640 So there are quite a few of those as well. 990 00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,760 By and large, the people who do their homework, the people who 991 00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:39,080 educate themselves, find a great therapist or doctor or coach to 992 00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:44,160 work with, you know, do the necessary preparation and 993 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,720 integration. By and large, about 70 to 80% of 994 00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,200 people end up having a positive and beneficial experience when 995 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,760 working with with psychedelics. And then you see about 10 to 15% 996 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:57,000 of people who, it's fine, nothing really happens, but 997 00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,320 nothing bad happens. And then about 5% of people, it 998 00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,440 can be destabilizing, it can be quite difficult, Which again is 999 00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,000 why it's so important to have support. 1000 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,760 Because, you know, a lot of people look at psychedelics and 1001 00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:09,800 they go, oh, maybe this will fix all my problems. 1002 00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,920 And the truth is, it'll help you confront and face your problems. 1003 00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,800 It'll help you become more aware of what your problems are. 1004 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:19,840 But it's not going to fix them. You still have to, as we talked 1005 00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,240 about before, drive the car. You still have to do the work to 1006 00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:24,960 actually live a life that you want to live. 1007 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,560 Yeah, no, I totally agree. If someone's stable, they're 1008 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:30,680 like confident in who they are. They have their purpose. 1009 00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:31,760 They know what they're doing in life. 1010 00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:36,240 Are they likely going to find more benefit from an occasional 1011 00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:37,960 high dose of mushrooms for instance? 1012 00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,160 Or more so, taking the path of the micro dosing a few times a 1013 00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:46,200 week. You know I talk about it as like 1014 00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,240 the skill of psychedelics, like the skill of psychedelics is 1015 00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:52,800 high doses, micro doses and non psychedelic modalities. 1016 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,640 So I always look at, you know, if I'm working with any client 1017 00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,160 or you know as part of our training program for 1018 00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:02,600 practitioners, I always consider you know, the the, the non 1019 00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:04,880 psychedelic stuff like the breathwork, meditation, yoga. 1020 00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:08,480 That's just things that all of us should be doing every day 1021 00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,040 whether we do psychedelics or not, right. 1022 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:12,240 We need some sort of form of contemplative practice. 1023 00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:16,240 Micro dosing can be great if you're looking for more flow, 1024 00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:19,680 more creativity, if you're looking to be less socially 1025 00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:23,800 awkward, have less social anxiety, it can be great if 1026 00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:27,000 you're just looking to, you know, take care of your brain, 1027 00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,160 it's quite helpful. Neurogenesis and then high doses 1028 00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:33,400 are really great for folks who just feel like even if things 1029 00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:35,480 are going well, they feel maybe a little stuck. 1030 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:37,920 They feel unclear. They feel like they've been in a 1031 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:41,160 rut lately. They feel like they haven't been 1032 00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:43,560 able to be as courageous in making the decisions that they 1033 00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,040 need to make. And doing a high dose of 1034 00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,040 psychedelics can sometimes help with that process. 1035 00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:51,200 So I would say a lot of it is we should all be meditating, we 1036 00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,400 should all be doing breath work, We should all have some form of 1037 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,920 contemplative practice. And then depending on your 1038 00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,200 intention, you might want to explore either, you know, 1039 00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,160 working with a high dose or microdosing. 1040 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,520 Makes total sense. How has all this been received 1041 01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:06,720 from like religious sectors, out of curiosity like that, you get 1042 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:11,560 a lot of pushback from those that are, you know, devoutly 1043 01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:15,280 deep in their faith. Like, is that a confrontation 1044 01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,920 with, you know, people taking psychedelics, playing God? 1045 01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:23,760 Like how is that received? Yeah, most for most 1046 01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:28,440 conservative, you know, religious people, it's honestly 1047 01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:32,360 not really on the radar. They would just have the classic 1048 01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:34,760 perspective of this is a drug, it's illegal. 1049 01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:37,720 It must be bad. So I'm not going to touch it. 1050 01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:44,000 There are quite a few, like in the Jewish community especially, 1051 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:45,960 there are a lot of people who are interested in the overlap 1052 01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,200 between psychedelics and the Kabbalah, which is sort of the 1053 01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:53,680 mystical text and devotion of of of Judaism there. 1054 01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,160 Johns Hopkins, which has done quite a bit of research on 1055 01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:02,640 psilocybin, has an ongoing study where they're giving religious 1056 01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:09,760 leaders, priests, bishops, imams, rabbis, they're giving 1057 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:14,480 them psychedelics and seeing how it impacts their sort of 1058 01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:17,920 relationship to God if it sort of revitalizes them in their 1059 01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:23,480 ministry. So definitely the vast majority 1060 01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:27,480 of people who follow a religious path are anti psychedelic and I 1061 01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:30,360 can't tell you including myself, how many people have healed 1062 01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:33,840 religious trauma with psychedelics. 1063 01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:37,400 I wasn't raised fundamentalist, but I was raised from basically 1064 01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:41,520 the the day I was born until I left my parents house when I was 1065 01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:43,640 17. I was at church every single 1066 01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:46,760 Sunday. I mean, there were maybe when we 1067 01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:49,200 would travel once a year, I wouldn't go, but literally every 1068 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:53,560 single Sunday for four hours. And working with LSD at the age 1069 01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:57,200 of 1920 really helped me to heal a lot of that religious shame 1070 01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,760 and guilt that I had been raised within. 1071 01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:04,080 I know a lot of people who have left the Mormon Church who have 1072 01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:06,160 turned to psychedelics to help them on their healing path, 1073 01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:08,320 people who were raised as Jehovah's Witness. 1074 01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:11,320 So I think psychedelics, especially for those who are 1075 01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:15,400 raised and more like intense fundamentalist religious 1076 01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,040 traditions, they can be really helpful to heal that trauma. 1077 01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:22,160 And and then, you know, with the research at Johns Hopkins where 1078 01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:24,320 they're bringing religious leaders in to do psychedelics, I 1079 01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:27,280 think it's interesting. I mean we'll we'll we'll see 1080 01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:29,520 what happens with it. Yeah, it is interesting. 1081 01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:31,880 There's a lot of exciting things in the pipeline on this front, 1082 01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:33,240 man, you're at the tip of the spear here. 1083 01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,040 What what are you personally excited about as it relates to 1084 01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,080 your your consulting business, just your operation as a whole? 1085 01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:42,600 Well, you know I hold, I hold a lot of hats. 1086 01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,920 I'm ACEO of a company. We have about 10 people who work 1087 01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,000 for us at this point in time. So the typical business and 1088 01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:51,400 strategy and relationship building. 1089 01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,120 You know I love to host the podcast. 1090 01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:58,440 So we have great guests on from across the spectrum there and I 1091 01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:01,760 just love interviewing and and going deep into that. 1092 01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,520 I have a second book that will come out at some point this 1093 01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:06,800 year. The first book I wrote was 1094 01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:10,400 called Mastering Microdosing. So folks want to take a deep 1095 01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:12,480 dive into microdosing. You can find that in Amazon and 1096 01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:16,160 I'll have a second one coming out, coming out this year. 1097 01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:21,440 And and then I would say the main project that I'm excited 1098 01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:23,400 about in the next two or three years is I'm just really 1099 01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,600 starting to take a look at properties in Costa Rica and 1100 01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:30,040 Portugal and the United States. I'm really keen on buying a 1101 01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:34,200 retreat center, building a retreat center and sort of 1102 01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,240 setting up a physical home for 3rd wave. 1103 01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:39,120 You know, we have a remote team, we've been online for nine years 1104 01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:42,680 ever since I started and I'd love to have like a physical 1105 01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:46,240 home for 3rd wave at some point in the next 3-4, five years. 1106 01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:50,840 And so I'd say on a longer term horizon that's the that's kind 1107 01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:51,920 of. I've been interested in real 1108 01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,000 estate for a while and I've just had my hands full with running 1109 01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:59,160 an online education business. But I'm really looking forward 1110 01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,960 to getting into to retreat centers and land development and 1111 01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:06,360 all these sorts of things before the end of this decade. 1112 01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:07,520 Very cool. Yeah. 1113 01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,640 I think doing things like in person as a retreat like that 1114 01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:13,040 would be incredibly fulfilling because you're right there, 1115 01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:15,240 boots on the ground with the people you're you're helping. 1116 01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:17,320 So that'd be that'd be exciting for sure. 1117 01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:19,440 Man, I love it. Palm. 1118 01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:20,800 Well, where? Where can people go to find out 1119 01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:23,000 more about you and dive deeper into your world and just learn 1120 01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:27,440 more about Third Wave? Yeah, folks, want to check out 1121 01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:32,520 our guides, our list of providers, join our community? 1122 01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:36,680 That's thethirdwave.co You can also just type in 3rd wave into 1123 01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,560 Google to pop right up. Folks can reach out to me on 1124 01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:45,840 Instagram or Twitter at paul.austin3wimalso@paulaustin.co 1125 01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:48,360 You can reach out directly through the website there and 1126 01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:52,720 then if there are any coaches or practitioners, dietitians, 1127 01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:55,280 People who in a professional way work with clients and they're 1128 01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:56,840 interested in working with psychedelics. 1129 01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,840 We have our training program at the Psychedelic Coaching 1130 01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,640 Institute, which you can find through Third Wave or directly 1131 01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:05,320 at Psychedelic Coaching dot Institute. 1132 01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:09,760 So quite a bit there, but Third Wave, Paul Austin Psychedelic 1133 01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:13,840 Coaching Institute. And folks have any questions. 1134 01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,320 If they want to share any sort of personal stories or anything 1135 01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:18,160 like that, feel free to reach out to me on social. 1136 01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:20,200 I'm pretty responsive there. Awesome man. 1137 01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:21,600 Well, I will certainly link out to all those. 1138 01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:23,040 Make it easy for people to find you. 1139 01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:24,640 You said multiple times on the podcast. 1140 01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:26,760 That'd be a whole podcast in and of itself, man, so we'll just 1141 01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:28,160 have to do around here at some point. 1142 01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:30,840 I would love that. I had a lot of fun. 1143 01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:34,360 Robert, thanks for and I love the style of the the show. 1144 01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:37,320 It was super smooth and flowy, so I appreciate you being a 1145 01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:38,800 great host. Hey man, my pleasure. 1146 01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:40,120 I'm. I'm always excited to learn more 1147 01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,320 and just dive deeper into other people's wheelhouses. 1148 01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:44,800 So I appreciate you enlightening me, man. 1149 01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:47,920 Yeah, for sure can't. Wait till next time, man. 1150 01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:48,760 Yeah, take care.