1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,600 Well, hello ladies and gents, Robert Sykes, Keto savage.com. 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,680 Today I've got special guest Doctor Andrew Hill on the line 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,840 and we dive deep into the wonderful world of brain mapping 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:14,280 and neurofeedback and how to analyze one's brain waves and 5 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,600 then subjected to certain stimuli internally to elicit a 6 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,680 certain response over time. Very, very interesting stuff. 7 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,000 I've I've not ever recorded a podcast with a guest like this. 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,800 I learned a ton about what the brain is telling you. 9 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,200 What's what Brain waves like gamma, delta, Theta, alpha, 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,200 beta. You are producing more of less 11 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,920 of where you may be deficient. How manipulating those through 12 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,200 non intrusive means can elicit a certain response to your favor. 13 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,120 Whether that be athletic seizure related OCD which was a 14 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,280 particular interest to me because I've had OCD my whole 15 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,640 life. Just kind of diving deeper into 16 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:55,000 looking at the brain from a feedback standpoint similar to 17 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,160 how you would use ACGM or a leukometer or a ketone tester, 18 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,600 something like that. But then taking actionable data 19 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,160 from the brain and then you know adjusting course as needed. 20 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:06,880 So very interesting conversation. 21 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,320 I learned a ton, I've got no doubt that you will as well. 22 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,240 So that for the delay, sit back, relax, enjoy the conversation 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:25,000 with Doctor Andrew Hill and we are live. 24 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,840 Andrew Hill, how are you Sir? I'm doing well. 25 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:29,440 Thanks for having me today, Robert. 26 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:30,920 Hey, I'm excited to chat with you. 27 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,320 So you are an expert in all things brain health and 28 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:36,520 optimization. And I, you know, I talk a lot 29 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,680 about nutrition, fitness training and all of that can be 30 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,600 dialed in perfectly, but it's all for not if you're not in the 31 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,920 right headspace and just functioning on all 8 cylinders 32 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,760 from a neurological standpoint. So I'm excited to chat with you 33 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,480 about proper brain health today. But out of curiosity, man, what 34 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,320 got you interested in the brain in the first place? 35 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:56,800 Oh wow. So, you know, I think of course 36 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:58,920 a lot of our experience probably is our brain. 37 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:00,880 So, you know, maybe that had something to do with it when I 38 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,640 was growing up, but or fairly early. 39 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,520 I think I was in probably in high school or something. 40 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,800 One of my siblings had a a an accident where to get hit by a 41 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,640 car and had a brain injury and had a, you know, pretty dramatic 42 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:18,160 change in consciousness sort of status for a few months. 43 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,680 You know, he was in a coma for a month or two and then took some 44 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,800 time to recover from that. And he and I watched both the 45 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,680 the strong change that he experienced sort of happened and 46 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,360 then him rebuilding that. Both were, you know, pretty 47 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,800 dramatic things and that got me working in this in this 48 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,680 direction. Eventually, you know, a decade 49 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,040 later, I started working with the brain and I was doing work 50 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,640 with mostly residential population. 51 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:48,720 So working with group homes for with folks that had multiple 52 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,440 disabilities and mental and developmental issues and sensory 53 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:59,720 issues and communication issues, and working in this environment 54 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,320 for a while, you know, wasn't seeing a lot of change. 55 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,720 And then I ended up working in inpatient psych in really 56 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,160 critical environments for a while and didn't see a lot of 57 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,680 change and ended up getting injured working in inpatient 58 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,520 environments and had to sort of shift gears for a while. 59 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,120 And when I went back into mental health, I went back into an area 60 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,440 that I had some experience with, you know, developmental psych 61 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,320 and kids sort of autism and and other related phenomena. 62 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,400 And but I was doing it in an in a new place that used this 63 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:34,880 technique called neurofeedback and suddenly I was seeing kids 64 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,240 and some adults with developmental differences get 65 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,960 control over their their brain phenomena pretty well. 66 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,600 And it was it was really sort of jumping out against the 67 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,160 landscape of me thinking nothing could really be done for a lot 68 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,320 of phenomena. You know more than a decade of 69 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,080 seeing people with sensory communication, executive 70 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,320 anxiety, trauma, you know kind of psychiatric phenomena as well 71 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,360 as developmental really not getting an awful lot of support 72 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,680 in in inpatient, outpatient, etcetera. 73 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,560 And then I saw this neurofeedback center, you know, 74 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:14,480 training brains for a few months and over time, you know, with 75 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,720 like ADHD and executive function things, we're seeing a couple of 76 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,320 standard deviations of change in just a few months. 77 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,000 And with autistic spectrum stuff, we're seeing sensory and 78 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,680 social and seizure phenomena change quite a bit. 79 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:30,680 And this just really flew in the face of what I thought was 80 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,000 possible. And at the time, this is now 81 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,240 more than 20 years ago, at the time, the field of neurofeedback 82 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,280 was still somewhat new. I would say it's still pretty 83 00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:44,760 new. I mean this year in, in 2024, 84 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,080 EEG the, the measurement of brain waves, which is a big part 85 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,960 of what neurofeedback uses, EEG is 100 years old, 100 years this 86 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,000 year. So it's not that old. 87 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,520 The technology, it's not that new obviously. 88 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:04,560 We're still figuring out like air travel perhaps and 89 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,960 neurofeedback, the practice of measuring the brain and then 90 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,760 changing the EEG often, although you can do neurofeedback on many 91 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,600 things. But often when we say the word 92 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,800 neurofeedback, we mean biofeedback on brain waves or 93 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,320 shaping the EEG. And that was discovered in the 94 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,240 late 60s essentially and how it's used today, the sort of 95 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,360 form it's used today. So it's a somewhat new practice. 96 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,560 And 20 years ago there was, I don't know, two or three schools 97 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:36,320 of thought. And they were essentially all 98 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,080 arguing about what was going on within the functional sort of 99 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,080 landscapes. You had these two or three 100 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,280 different pieces of software and they all worked somewhat 101 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:49,600 differently. And proponents of how to use 102 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,520 them and what was going on and how we were seeing all these 103 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,840 changes happen in the early field because it was dramatic. 104 00:05:56,840 --> 00:05:59,320 I mean, I mean you'd start training someone with seizures 105 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,840 and within a few weeks their seizures would be a fraction of 106 00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:05,880 what they were before or someone with acute anxiety or trauma or 107 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,160 executive function stuff. You'd see change start showing 108 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,960 up subjectively and and from the outside in as little as a couple 109 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,720 of weeks sometimes. So we were all all busy arguing 110 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,160 in the field about what was going on in these different sort 111 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,840 of churches or schools of of neurofeedback really disagreed 112 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:27,360 with each other about how this stuff worked and what it meant 113 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,840 and the best way to go about it. And and everyone's busy sort of 114 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:35,160 arguing with each other And yet all of these approaches, these 115 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,960 three or or four maybe big approaches in the field that 116 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,480 theoretically didn't have any, you know, agreement, they 117 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,520 weren't reconcilable. A lot of vitriol was being 118 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,320 thrown around and very nichy circles about, you know, the 119 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,800 right way to do this stuff. And yet all of them, all of the 120 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,480 people doing neurofeedback were getting better results on the 121 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,440 stuff that it worked for than traditional medicine. 122 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,200 All like dramatically better results. 123 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:05,200 I mean very few things 20 years ago and and more. 124 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,080 And still even I would say very few things can take somebody 125 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,920 who's profoundly challenged with like ADHD or anxiety and give 126 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,800 them tools to move their brain to a different place in just a 127 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,600 few months. So that power really jumped out 128 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,840 and we didn't know how it worked at all. 129 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,200 And so after working in the field and seeing this phenomena, 130 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,240 you know, again and again and again and helping, you know, 131 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,520 move people through some transformation again and again 132 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:35,400 and seeing lots of data, I I went back to grad school and 133 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:40,320 studied essentially how well I I I want to know how neurofeedback 134 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,800 worked. Because with these different 135 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,040 schools of thought, arguing about what was happening and yet 136 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,400 amazing results from my perspective, it really struck me 137 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,720 as a blind men and elephant kind of situation. 138 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,400 You know, describing something interesting and maybe valid at 139 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,800 the detail level, but no one really knew what was going on. 140 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,880 And those basic questions about doesn't matter where on the head 141 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,240 you train which frequencies you train, like what is actually 142 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,760 happening and people were not in agreement about it. 143 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:11,400 So I I went back to grad school and studied EEG and brain 144 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,400 organization and learning and a bunch of other stuff, including 145 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,080 doing a lot of work on neurofeedback. 146 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:23,120 And I did one of the earliest double-blind, placebo-controlled 147 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,640 studies of neurofeedback, looking at exercising beta waves 148 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,960 in the left hemisphere versus the right hemisphere and beta 149 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:36,440 waves versus slower beta waves and then beta waves versus sham. 150 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,679 And helped work for one of the software developers in the in 151 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,400 the commercial space to develop a sham module. 152 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,040 So you could do placebo-controlled work. 153 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:53,280 And over the next, you know, month or two developed data and 154 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,800 then analyzed it for a year or two, which is sort of what 155 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,680 happens with the EEG. But what came out of it is sort 156 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:03,760 of an understanding of how the brain knows when neurofeedback 157 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,880 is happening. So to back up for a second, 158 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,840 neurofeedback is a process of shaping the brain waves or 159 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,480 exercising the brain waves. But unlike body based exercise 160 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,040 of muscles, let's say where you're doing and you're very 161 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:16,880 intentional. In fact the more intentional you 162 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,960 are with moving the body in a skill or a or a exercise, the 163 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,360 faster your body adapts the better you change. 164 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,560 If you put your mind into the muscle while moving through your 165 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:30,400 compound workout, you change faster and and you develop the 166 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,080 skill faster. When you're putting your mind 167 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,360 into the, you know, you observe the person doing the golf swing 168 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,800 properly and then really attentionally, mindfully anchor 169 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,960 to it while you try it, You learn faster. 170 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,040 So you know the mind is a driver of learning to some extent. 171 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,720 But body based biofeedback, people hear biofeedback, they 172 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,640 think relaxation therapy and you know, maybe the word alpha waves 173 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,600 comes up from the 60s. But a lot of that stuff, a lot 174 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,640 of the, the voluntary stuff around biofeedback is using 175 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,640 peripheral nervous system, your heart rate, your, you know, hand 176 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,200 warming, blood pressure, that kind of stuff, the peripheral 177 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,640 nervous system, you can feel it and it's to some extent under 178 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,200 your control. You change your breathing rate 179 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,720 and your heart rate variability speeds up or slows down. 180 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,040 So you can learn to kind of control the activation levels 181 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,400 and sensations and phenomena in the peripheral nervous system 182 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,480 and that has a lot of value for a lot of different goals. 183 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,520 But most neurofeedback is central biofeedback, it's 184 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,680 central nervous system. So the line between peripheral 185 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:35,240 and central is all the stuff inside of the bone is central 186 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,000 nervous system. If it's got nerves and 187 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,960 information flow, it's central. So the spine and the brain 188 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:46,080 mostly, and those tissues, the central tissues don't have any 189 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,840 sensory nerve endings. You cannot feel inside your 190 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:51,360 brain. There's nothing to feel. 191 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,800 You feel up to you. You can feel inside your skull, 192 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,760 there's the meninges, the scalp, the skull, there's blood vessels 193 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,960 in a kind of a a, a folded layer of several layers that wrap the 194 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,080 brain. But once you get to the brain 195 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,120 itself, there's nothing to feel. The brain has can't, can't 196 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,240 actually feel itself ironically, even though it's doing all the 197 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,200 feeling. So if you measure what the brain 198 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,280 is doing moment to moment, if you stick a wire on top of the 199 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,680 head and and measure a specific area of the brain that has a 200 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:24,160 job, let's say there's the front midline of the brain, the 201 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,320 anterior cingulate. And its job is to be a little 202 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,840 CEO and kind of help you direct the activity and the focus and 203 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,360 the value of the focus. He sort of walks around going 204 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:37,400 think of this, focus on this. We care about this, think of 205 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,120 this, think of this, care about this. 206 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,120 We, you know, it's through that, that direction of the internal 207 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,680 environment almost. And it uses beta waves to do 208 00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:48,600 that. And it also uses something 209 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,520 called alpha waves to go into more of a relaxed mode and not 210 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:56,080 focus on things and uses Theta waves to shift gears like kind 211 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,200 of like a lubrication. So the the beta's, the gas 212 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,080 pedal, the alpha's, the neutral. And the Theta is like taking the 213 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,000 brakes off or or lubricating things. 214 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,280 They work better or react faster. 215 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,840 And if you look at someone's brain at rest, you can see a 216 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,680 certain amount of beta or amount of of alpha compared to the 217 00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:16,160 average person. And that'll predict some things. 218 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,240 These are called phenotypes or or biomarkers or trait markers. 219 00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:23,000 And if I saw yours, you know, oh, look, you got a lot of beta 220 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,480 on the front midline. I might guess some things about 221 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:27,440 you. Now, brain mapping. 222 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,280 This is what we're talking about now, the the measurement of 223 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:34,680 resting EEG, Brain mapping is not a deterministic kind of 224 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:37,440 diagnostic landscape. You can't say, oh, look, you 225 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,080 have this brain pattern, therefore you have this 226 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,920 experience because people are really unusual. 227 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,360 So when you look at a a, a data, human data through a lens of 228 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,720 population variability, yeah, people are weird. 229 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,760 Good job, be weird. A lot of data that you come out 230 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,720 of, it doesn't actually, you know, give you all that much 231 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,280 discreet meaning. But it does sort sort of paint 232 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,880 out sort of a landscape of what could be true. 233 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,160 Because often, let's say you have a front, you know, midline 234 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,040 beta. Often that beta excess means 235 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,400 your interior cingulate tends to cramp up into high gear. 236 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,400 And the experience of that is somebody getting stuck on things 237 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:20,280 so perseverating kind of getting obsessive or having a, you know, 238 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,360 a thought stuck in the head or an idea stuck in the head that's 239 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,640 that's a beta waves being stuck essentially. 240 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,280 And the alpha can't come up to replace it. 241 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,000 And sometimes people have a Theta wave stuck there and 242 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,280 instead of having a an intrusive thought or something or 243 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,840 obsessiveness, they'll have like a song stuck in their head. 244 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,920 Or someone who bites their nails or has a tick will have lots of 245 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,320 Theta brain waves because that CEO is a bit disinhibited and is 246 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,120 rushing around, shifting from task to task to task. 247 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:51,800 So we're sort of getting this perspective now that you can use 248 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,640 the tools of looking at your resting brain to figure out how 249 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,360 some of these circuits work. And then the big technique that 250 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,960 I do, a lot of this thing called neurofeedback, is measuring 251 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,800 those brain waves in real time. If you wanted to change your how 252 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,360 your anterior cingulate worked, you'd stick a wire on top of it, 253 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,560 plus some ear clips, and you'd measure that beta wave amount 254 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,640 moment to moment. And whenever it briefly shifted 255 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,440 in the right direction, Meta relaxes. 256 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,200 The alpha comes up to replace it briefly. 257 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,240 The computer sees that and sort of applauds your brain. 258 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,800 You know, a little bit of audio happens or a visual. 259 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,320 So a little game starts to move on the screen, or some music 260 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,640 starts playing and the brain goes, oh, hey, stuff. 261 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:31,840 I like stuff. Stuff's cool. 262 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,400 That's interesting, huh? Wow, stuff's happening in the 263 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,040 outside world. And then a couple seconds later 264 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,960 your brain happens to move in the wrong direction, especially 265 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,920 if you have a lot of, you know, obsessiveness or something. 266 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,960 Your beta is pretty hot. Comes right back up and the game 267 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,400 slows down or stops. The brain says, hey, I don't, I 268 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,000 don't like no stuff. Where's my stuff? 269 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,000 And a couple seconds later it happens to fluctuate in the 270 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,760 right direction. The alpha comes back up, let's 271 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:59,400 say, and the game resumes. And we're sort of shaping the 272 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:00,960 activity. We're plotting the brain 273 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,680 briefly, whenever it happens, to move in the right direction. 274 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,360 And then every so often we move the goal posts, you know, put 275 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,720 the computer right next to where the brain is in measurement. 276 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,960 And then when the brain again fluctuates in the right 277 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,680 direction, little burst of information happens in the 278 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,240 outside world. And a lot of my initial 279 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,560 dissertation work at UCLA was to look at what was happening at 280 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,440 that moment. How does the brain know that 281 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,080 you're applauding certain frequencies? 282 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,360 And I sort of figured out that the brain is producing a burst 283 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,960 of those same frequencies in response to them being 284 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,080 applauded. It sort of notices within a few 285 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,440 minutes. The brain is reacting to the 286 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,800 whichever frequencies are being applauded by the software. 287 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,520 Now, because you can't feel your brain waves, you can't really 288 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,720 voluntarily push them around, concentrate, relax, etcetera. 289 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,920 You can't really control them that way in terms of following a 290 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,760 neurofeedback protocol. But the brain notices. 291 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,960 The brain knows. If you know, you only get 292 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,960 applause when you bring up some alpha, Relax the beta on that 293 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:02,720 front midline. And that happens for 20 minutes. 294 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,280 After two or three sessions of that, the brain goes oh, oh, oh, 295 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,600 oh, Alpha coming up. OK. 296 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,560 Relaxing beta. Oh, gotcha, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 297 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:11,560 I'll. I'll do some of that. 298 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,480 And it does it strongly. And you feel that for the next 299 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,640 few hours, after maybe the second or third session, you're 300 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:22,280 kind of like, wait a minute, I I feel kind of different. 301 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,360 I might feel kind of relaxed. That's interesting, huh? 302 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,360 Wow. And then it kind of wears off 303 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,200 and you're like, Nah, I was imagining it. 304 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,080 Nah. I'd say Nah, I I kind of wanted 305 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,680 to feel it or whatever. And then you do it again and it 306 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,000 happens more strongly. And you have this opportunity to 307 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,080 start essentially stretching your brain resources a little 308 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,480 tip a little bit transiently by doing operant conditioning, 309 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,360 doing shaping of the circuits activity and it flexes a little 310 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,160 bit, it responds and after a couple of sessions of it you 311 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,200 feel the the direction of that response. 312 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,040 And by checking back in with your coaches and trainers, you 313 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,160 sort of can create this relationship with your brain. 314 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,960 Kind of like you're you're training any other goal, you 315 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,520 know, or or suffering. Where the stuff we're training 316 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,520 the brain ends up being these big features of things like 317 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,599 attention or stress or anxiety or speed of processing, brain 318 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,480 fog, sleep, seizure. And the the big gross features 319 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,880 of the brain become quantifiable and trainable. 320 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,839 Just like you're looking at your bone density or you're looking 321 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:28,720 at your, you know, maximum, you know, one Rep lift on a on a 322 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,240 deadlift. Or you're looking at your 323 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,880 triglycerides and trying to figure out how to steer some of 324 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,120 these values. When you look at your speed of 325 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:38,040 alpha, it's your speed of your mind. 326 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,320 You know how well you can access words and language and absorb 327 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,120 information and retrieve information. 328 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,240 When you see how much Theta and alpha you have at rest in the 329 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,440 motor tissue, that's how well you can sustain your focus and 330 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,960 not become distractible. It's also how well you can sleep 331 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,040 at night, sustain your sleep. When the cingulates are hot in 332 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:55,360 the front, you might be obsessive. 333 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:57,160 When it's hot in the back, you might ruminate. 334 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,400 That's your lifeguard back there going watch the road, watch the 335 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,200 road. So all of these things don't 336 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,160 become diagnostic again, but become features. 337 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,320 Like you're kind of learning to read your body fat scale, 338 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,000 changing the right direction or learning to, you know, dig 339 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,760 through the the data at your high end gym with your coach and 340 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,440 figure out which of the features you're seeing in data align with 341 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,200 the goals or the suffering you want to chase. 342 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,960 And so when I got out of grad school, I I started a company 343 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,320 essentially whose job it is, is to sit in that place between 344 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,320 what your doctor does and what your gym does. 345 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,000 And sort of my company, Peak Brain, does a lot of education. 346 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,800 We teach you to read your brain maps. 347 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,040 We teach you to sort of, you know, develop plans to navigate 348 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,240 through making changes in these resources of stress, sleep, 349 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,480 attention, etcetera. So so, you know, 20 years in 350 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,440 now, I'm gotten deeply into not just the technique of this one 351 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,560 thing, neurofeedback, but more about the perspective of, oh, 352 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,680 hey, you've got a brain, why don't you learn how it works? 353 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,640 Because just knowing how it works can actually create a lot 354 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,040 of perspective and transformation. 355 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,880 If you know that you're eating before bed is screwing up your 356 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,600 sleep quality, which is screwing up your word finding issues, 357 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,440 well, it gives you some strategies to change your 358 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,640 behavior and modify the environment, modify yourself and 359 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,760 deal with your brain. You know your your, your 360 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,120 resources, your suffering, whatever it is in a very 361 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:26,560 different place or very different perspective than a 362 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,280 label that's been applied and being in a treatment role. 363 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:34,800 So not that there was a role for that, but we decided that the 364 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,400 the real value we could provide was to sort of help you 365 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,760 demystify yourself a little bit using some of these tools 1st 366 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,840 and then often you know help build some plans for change so. 367 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,080 I love it. There's lots to unpack here. 368 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:52,600 So from a from a medical setting standpoint, this is 369 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,280 predominantly used for those that have been diagnosed with 370 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:01,800 some form of ADHDOCD depression that's typically the setting. 371 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,160 Seizure seizures. Yeah, the first neurofeedback 372 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,480 was seizure as a treatment. The average drop of seizure in 373 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,680 the literature is about 50%. But I I I've never seen a result 374 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,240 as poor as 50%. It's always a big effect. 375 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,640 Seizure was the first thing in the 70s and then sleep and ADHD 376 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,240 became a big feature, set, a big, big target for it. 377 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,320 The other big things that happened in the 70s and 80s that 378 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,280 really became huge effects in both people's lives, you know, 379 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,200 all over the place. But plus the the literature 380 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,680 backs it up quite strongly. Is it alcohol? 381 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,320 Alcohol cravings, alcohol relapse, sleep issues, 382 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,600 creativity issues, emotional issues, seizure issues? 383 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,800 It's used heavily in alcohol. There's really good research on 384 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:51,000 it these days. I would say it's, you know, 385 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,440 probably up until about 20 years ago it was still mostly kid 386 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,280 focused. That's why you get both like 387 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,720 autism and ADHD and seizure and you know, and anxiety and bed 388 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,600 wetting and sensory issues as the targets in your feedback. 389 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,240 Because to some extent you see the targets of how brains cramp 390 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,640 up a lot in all the classic ways in a in a developmentally, you 391 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,160 know, either disadvantaged population or developmentally 392 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,720 stressed, you know, kid populations experiencing trauma 393 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,120 or something. You see how the brain cramps up 394 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,640 in the edge cases of human suffering either through being 395 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,640 developed that way or things that are required. 396 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,320 So a lot of the, a lot of the populations were kid focused. 397 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:35,640 Now I would say in the landscape of neurofeedback, which is 398 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,320 something like 15,000 people worldwide that do this 399 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,640 professionally in the US, we probably have more than half of 400 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,800 those. I would say almost all of them 401 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,280 are therapists working with ADHD. 402 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,800 Anxiety, especially trauma and OCD features respond very well. 403 00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:01,120 Autism is a huge target and then you have sleep seizure. 404 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,640 Migraine responds really well, although that's a different 405 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,640 technique. You do blood flow training, you 406 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,880 use infrared cameras, at least I do infrared cameras and then 407 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,640 train the blood flow as well as the EEG to get a different kind 408 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,880 of response in migraines. But those are the kind of I 409 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,880 think you know post concussion post COVID little secret that 410 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,920 brain fog looks the same no matter why you have it. 411 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,800 So if it's from mold or Lyme or chemo or apnea or post COVID, 412 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:33,080 brain fog looks the same. So brain fog writ large is is a 413 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,040 good is a strong target and these days the the field is also 414 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,760 breaking out in a non medical quite strongly. 415 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,240 There's an awful lot of use of neurofeedback in sport. 416 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,680 You know, certain high level pro sports, NFL and and European 417 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,600 football as well. We're seeing that happen more 418 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,920 and more. Peak Brain, my my company, about 419 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,040 a third of our business has always been optimization. 420 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,520 You know, not necessarily chasing a particular bit of 421 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,040 suffering for you, but helping the peak performers perform 422 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,400 better. You know people come in saying, 423 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,960 you know, I I have no problems but I want to work on XY or Z 424 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,360 and they're often very high performers. 425 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:17,600 So I have a the luxury, the the the wonderful experience of 426 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,760 having exceptionally high performers, an awful lot of them 427 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,480 over the past 20 years where you know, it's it it it stops 428 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,000 looking all that different. When you have a super high end 429 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,960 athlete or a super high end creative or ACEO, they all kind 430 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,720 of look the same to to some extent when they have brains 431 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,440 that are very, very powerful. But some of the natural 432 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,920 strengths can really easily cramp up. 433 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,800 I mean there's a very fine line between an effective CEO and 434 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,080 somebody with OCD. It's the same tissue for hyper 435 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,360 focusing and holding things in your mind is that anterior 436 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:52,000 cingulate And if your thoughts are having you, we call that 437 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,360 OCD. And if you're able to hold that 438 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,360 like a steel trap when you want to and hold your vision, that's 439 00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:01,040 that's the CEO perspective, the the clear valuing, the clear 440 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,560 importance, the clear focus internally. 441 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,520 But if you can't turn that off at when you get home and you're 442 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,080 still trying to solve your partner's problems instead of be 443 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,480 a good listener and you can't power down for the night and 444 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,640 you, you know you're requiring sort of assistive substances to 445 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,880 get there, OK, then it's in the way. 446 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,360 Then you may not be OCD, but it's probably a little bit stuck 447 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:24,200 if you're inflexible and rigid in this way. 448 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:29,040 So you tend to find that even people that have peak 449 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:34,320 performance, quote UN quote goals or categories will have 450 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,520 all the same cramps in their brain and dysregulated resources 451 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,560 as folks with giant, big scary labels. 452 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,000 I mean, someone comes in who's a creative and they're trying to 453 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,560 breakthrough some creative blocks and turns out they've got 454 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,040 crazy stage fright one on the red carpet. 455 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,400 You know, when they're, when they're unscripted and we can do 456 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,200 a lot of work on anxiety and creativity. 457 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,160 And I get a lot of, you know, clients from that, that person's 458 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,200 acting coach because suddenly they're acting. 459 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,720 You know, exercises start just changing, going through the roof 460 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,960 when they get more creative. But we worked on actually, you 461 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,560 know, classic anxiety features to some extent and classic sleep 462 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,960 regulation features. You know, because those were the 463 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,760 goals, or rather those were the things in the way of the goal. 464 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,160 So the goals can be symptoms. The goals can be suffering, 465 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,720 diagnostic, medical, psychological, but the resources 466 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,560 are just resources. So if you drop below the 467 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,880 diagnostic level, we're all in neurofeedback. 468 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,680 We're all working on regulatory features, about six or seven of 469 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,760 them, that respond really well. There's stress, sleep, 470 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:39,080 attention, sensory social speed and then stability, which is 471 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:40,840 like migraines and seizures and things. 472 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,560 That's the kind of the landscape. 473 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,200 And then within the brain's cortex, the surface of the 474 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,480 brain, you can kind of see the big tissues, the big machinery 475 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,360 involved with executive function, sleep, stress, all the 476 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,200 anxiety flavors, essentially all kind of visualized because 477 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,480 they're based around resources. We've got a resource that cramps 478 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,880 up for most flavors of anxiety, got a resource that's a little 479 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,800 bit off and most flavors of executive or memory that's not 480 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,480 acute, you know, very severe stuff is, is different tissue. 481 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,960 But you know, word finding for instance, or delayed recall is 482 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,680 just a tuning thing in, in terms of speed of the brain. 483 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,480 So the the, the label starts to break down. 484 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,720 And over the years I've kind of stopped caring if somebody's 485 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,480 screaming and stimming and having seizures or if they're, 486 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,520 you know, a high-powered CEO who can't put the phone down long 487 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,280 enough to like sit and relax and you know, do a session and give 488 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:36,720 me good feedback on how he's sleeping. 489 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,880 It's the same approach. It's like OK, what are the goals 490 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,640 here and and what are you noticing and what does your 491 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,760 brain look like at rest? And OK, now we know your goals, 492 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,440 now we know your brain. And that suggests a bunch of 493 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,680 things that might be able to shift you both, you know, 494 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,360 behaviorally and neurofeedback wise. 495 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:56,080 And now it's iterative. Now it's about creating the 496 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,080 experience for folks and the changes they're looking for more 497 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,880 than the the particular label. But label dodging aside, it's 498 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,280 mostly executive function, anxiety and sleep as the big 499 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,120 three categories that neurofeedback tends to work on 500 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,000 as a bread and butter thing, you know? 501 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:17,080 It is certainly seems like a more holistic approach than 502 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,560 simply throwing the kitchen sink of medication at a given ailment 503 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:26,120 like sleep or anxiety or stress, which seems to be the standard 504 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:27,680 of care across the board currently. 505 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,280 Yeah, and. And there are some good meds for 506 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,720 some good things. Sleep's not one of them, 507 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,960 unfortunately. I mean, there's no Med, no 508 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,960 medication that really creates sleep. 509 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,280 Most sleep aids or hypnotics that shut off the mind but don't 510 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,560 create sleep. And the hope is that the sleep 511 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,040 sleep reflex kicks in then but it's often not that great sleep 512 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,680 in this a vicious cycle of course with with sleep stuff but 513 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,960 you know neurofeedback as a technique is is is pretty 514 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:58,560 wonderful. I mean I'm I'm I'm biased a 515 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,080 little bit perhaps but it can make a lot of change in a really 516 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,200 QuickTime for for some classic stuff but I don't think the 517 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,880 value is even once you've done some neurofeedback. 518 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,080 I think it's really once you map your brain and once you see 519 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,760 what's going on, it gives you that perspective. 520 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,160 Once you know how your anterior cingulate works, or you know 521 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,040 whatever it is you care about, it clicks in. 522 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,640 The stuff that you see in a brain map that's most valid and 523 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,840 most interesting is the stuff you already know, but now you 524 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,880 know how it shows up. And you can also use the brain 525 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:36,040 mapping alongside medication to inform what's going on further. 526 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,400 So you can you know look at your brain on and off your ADHD meds 527 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,000 or your caffeine or cannabis or Adderall whatever it is and it's 528 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,360 a night and day difference, stark difference. 529 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,240 And you see gross obvious features in both the brain maps 530 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,000 and in executive function performance. 531 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,600 We always doing a performance test alongside the brain kind of 532 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,160 hold them in contrast to sort of tease apart what's going on. 533 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,000 But it is night and day difference when someone does it 534 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,240 with and without caffeine or Adderall or something. 535 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,400 And you can use that as an exploratory tool to figure out, 536 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,880 well, how much is my pre workout affecting my concentration or my 537 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,520 Adderall supporting my studies or my cannabis impacting my, you 538 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,400 know, anxiety features that I'm using it for. 539 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,720 You can do, you can actually do empirical work and look at the 540 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,560 data and correlate it with how you feel and really start to 541 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,800 paint out a deeper understanding of what's going on internally 542 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,400 that you kind of already know. And you can also use it in a bit 543 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,680 more prospective way. There's decent research that 544 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,920 actually the head of my dissertation committee, a guy 545 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,960 named Doctor Andy Lookhter at UCLA. 546 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,200 You did a bunch of research looking at a feature in the 547 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,240 brain called cordance which there's an EEG signature in the 548 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,080 frontal lobes that seems to change about 10 days after you 549 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,880 start. Well, within 10 days, you know 550 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,360 you can see it at least by by ten days after you start an 551 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,760 antidepressant like a classic SSRI or something. 552 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,280 But often those classic drugs for depression you don't feel 553 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,960 for three, 4-5 weeks and acute psychiatric environment. 554 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,080 You're set up as you know stabilization mills for 2-3 555 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,400 days. Then you're back out and you 556 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,560 know in in in in you're you're you're suffering your life your 557 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,120 stressors again so often well before meds are even starting to 558 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,880 work. So you can use EEG to predict 559 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,280 Med responses or to show Med responses and to get to go, OK, 560 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,760 yeah, I I think I'm feeling something. 561 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,120 OK, yes. And my brain's shifting that 562 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,400 direction. I'll give it another, you know, 563 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,520 week or two and look again because I think maybe 564 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,280 something's happening because your brain activity might shift 565 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,320 in advance of your experience of it often does a little bit. 566 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,920 Just like your blood pressure might shift a little bit in 567 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,480 response to working out before you notice that your body is, 568 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:44,920 you know maybe more relaxed or something. 569 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,040 So it just becomes a tool set the just the brain mapping, just 570 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,760 the analysis of your brain at rest, held up alongside 571 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,560 executive function and figuring out where the big gross models 572 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,840 of stress, sleep, attention, jump out. 573 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,440 Just that piece of it can give you strategies for sleep 574 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,320 hacking, meditation, supplements, medication, and 575 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,160 then you have empirical tools to start, you know, digging through 576 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,720 again. So that's my big soapbox is, 577 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,360 well, you know, hey, it's your brain and there's a lot of 578 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,040 suffering, a lot of gifts, a lot of power, a lot of, you know, 579 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:24,160 things we don't understand. But you can take a look and 580 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,800 you'd be often very surprised. People are always saying, I had 581 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,080 no idea you could see this stuff in my brain. 582 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,760 I kind of joke like I'm an old school tailor with the tape 583 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,840 measure out going, oh, and I see your waist is this big first. 584 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,160 No, no, no, it's not. Oh, I'm looking at the 585 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,880 information right here. You know, I often see if 586 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,920 someone's executive function, for instance, and I'm sitting 587 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,480 down looking at attention testing alongside a brain map 588 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,680 and I show like, their auditory performance is fine, but not for 589 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,400 the first trial of information ever. 590 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,120 There's a vigilance for auditory. 591 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,760 And their brain map has a big BLOB of delta on one side behind 592 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,800 the ear and they had a concussion there. 593 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,760 They report or something and, oh, OK well, there's this 594 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,160 auditory lag. Oh, look at that. 595 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,960 Your simple reaction time is 1/2 a second for auditory but a 596 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,040 quarter second, which is typical for visual. 597 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,120 Oh, look, one side of your brain is not lifting off quickly. 598 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,000 And that's why there's a hitch of a lag. 599 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,120 Oh, this means when you when your partner starts talking and 600 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,560 you say oh sorry, what and and they and they're like 601 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,760 frustrated, it's not your fault. Look at this. 602 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,440 Your auditory system is lifting off slowly. 603 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,600 So here's, you know, 3 strategies to work around that 604 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,120 in the short term. And people start laughing. 605 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,680 You know, I give marital advice and brain map reviews because 606 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,080 you see stuff around communication and sensory input. 607 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,520 You have a little hint, a little, you know, description of 608 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,640 the phenomena and you hear the wife or husband start laughing 609 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,600 in the background because, you know, they suddenly feel 610 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,760 validated as as their partner's brain is laid out a little bit. 611 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,840 So it's a nice tool. Yeah. 612 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:56,040 Are there any reliable methods like for home use of these Eegs 613 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:57,400 and brain mapping? Like, is there anything that's 614 00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,360 on the market currently that allows people to do this from 615 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,680 the come for their own home? Sure, yeah. 616 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,400 The hard part of neurofeedback and brain mapping isn't so much 617 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,080 doing the technique, but it's like how you use it for the 618 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:10,720 brain mapping. It's how you analyze it, 619 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,440 interpret it and then for the neurofeedback it's what you do 620 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,040 with the the tools like you can get kettle bells or you can get 621 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,920 a Nautilus machine from home. But how you design the workout 622 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,160 really creates the the transformation, not so much the 623 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:31,200 tools you have, yes you can get. There's there's many different 624 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,680 systems out there at this point that will do facilitated home 625 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,400 based work. What I've done is taken a 626 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,000 traditional neurofeedback approach, which involves mapping 627 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,600 your brain, measuring executive function, and then working with 628 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,280 you to figure out where the suffering and goals are. 629 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,760 And then we do systematic sort of traditional neurofeedback on 630 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,440 the EEG band. And all this is from home. 631 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,000 So we send you neurofeedback equipment, we send you brain 632 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,560 mapping equipment, and our coaches work with you. 633 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,600 We have people on seven days a week, more than 12 hours a day, 634 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,520 helping teach you stuff, set you up, troubleshoot, maybe 635 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,040 reminding you to fill out your sleep surveys because we haven't 636 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,239 seen one of those in three days. You know, that might happen. 637 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,800 And we have physical offices, PEAK has offices, a PEAK brain 638 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:19,159 in New York City, Saint Louis, couple in Southern California. 639 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:21,960 We're opening in Miami shortly. We're in London, we're in 640 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,440 Stockholm. Those offices are probably 641 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,719 serving fewer, you know, under 20% of our client base and most 642 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,840 of our clients never see offices. 643 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,800 And we make it pretty smooth. We, you know, send gear out and 644 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,560 coaches are super awesome and work live with you and teach you 645 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,679 stuff and troubleshoot and they're super low key and 646 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:44,960 patient as they move through stuff. 647 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,639 It's kind of like kind of like the Soul Cycle model. 648 00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:49,639 You know, some equipment shows up and there's someone on the 649 00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:53,360 other end of a small screen helping motivate, guide, 650 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,880 troubleshoot and get you through the process a little bit. 651 00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:58,560 So it's a little more complicated than Soul Cycle, but 652 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,600 you know, it's a metaphor for business. 653 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,400 So how how does the? How is the data actually 654 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,880 collectively, how does this work so that you're able to see the 655 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,480 different brain waves? Like I've done a polygraph test 656 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,120 where they hooked me up to a polygraph and I can see the the 657 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,960 graphical illustration of what my body's doing, but how does 658 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:17,520 that work from a neurological standpoint? 659 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,560 Sure, sure. So polygraph was picking up 660 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,280 three or four things. One of them is the chest strap 661 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,840 is the the breathing, the oscillations of your breathing. 662 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,240 Another is like the connectivity of your skin, the galvanic skin 663 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:29,440 response. You start sweating when you're 664 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,800 nervous, etcetera. You know, one of them is 665 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,680 probably your EKG, your heartbeat, you know, looking at 666 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,480 how if if the beat to beat changes or speeding up or or 667 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,880 getting rigid sign that you're getting tight. 668 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,320 So same thing in the brain. The brain's producing 669 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,400 electricity, lots of electricity. 670 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,080 It's kind of a a, a blessing. We can't feel our brains because 671 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,240 they would hurt. They're full of all kinds of 672 00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:55,200 stuff going on, like way more active than you might imagine. 673 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,880 But really, the EKG in the heart and the neurons firing the brain 674 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:01,840 are not all that different. They're both electrical 675 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,400 discharges. The real difference is that the 676 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,480 heart is meant to have coherent discharges. 677 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,200 There's a certain pattern of nodes. 678 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,880 The big electrical wave zips around the heart and creates 679 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,720 sort of a standing or similar frequency, a similar shape, you 680 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,440 know, morphology wave, like we all know what an EKG looks like. 681 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,000 Everyone's seeing Grey's Anatomy or whatever and seeing the EKG 682 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,720 on the screen has a special shape and each of those little 683 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,160 change points in that shape are meant to represent, you know, 684 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,600 it's going to represent each different node in the heart as 685 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,200 it pushes the blood around. It's the signal of the heartbeat 686 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,280 you're looking at essentially. The brain's not meant to be 687 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,320 coherent that way. It's actually meant to carry a 688 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,640 lot more information on each individual encoder of 689 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,880 information. And so essentially the brain 690 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,640 looks much more chaotic. If you if you ever seen EEGA set 691 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,040 of brain waves that look like a coherent EKG like like a 692 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,640 heartbeat that's basically a seizure event or a slow spike 693 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,120 which can lead to seizures. But if the heart, if the EKG 694 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,360 looks like an EEG, more chaotic waves that's basically some sort 695 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,160 of heart attack or or cardiac event. 696 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,520 You know these these are the same kind of neurons but they're 697 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,000 in different regulatory modes. One's synchronized and coherent, 698 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,880 one's more chaotic and carrying a lot more information at the 699 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:16,400 edge of that chaos in the in the brain. 700 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,640 But you just stick wires to the skin. 701 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,400 When doing an eega quantitative EEG or full head EEG, which is 702 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,280 our assessment tool, we just put a cap on the head like a lycra 703 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,960 cap. We send you like a swim cap kind 704 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,560 of thing. And it's got about 22 holes in 705 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,400 the cap with little metal rings around the holes. 706 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,960 And we also give you some ear clips, and you put the ear clips 707 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,760 on, put the cap on and then spend about 20 minutes feeling 708 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,680 awkward squirting gel into the holes of the ear clips and all 709 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,360 the cap. Maybe you have a friend who can 710 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,120 stand behind you and help get the cap gelled up, but it's a 711 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,720 little awkward. And during that our team or 712 00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:57,720 your, your, your coach will be sitting on the other end of 713 00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:00,920 their computer watching signals. You know, having you 714 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,240 troubleshoot quality of data, making sure you're getting good 715 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:09,160 signals, reading off your scalp on 21 locations, that that's a 716 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,800 full head EEG basically. And once we have good signals, 717 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,360 once we know that we're reading from all the proper locations, 718 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,480 would have you sit still and relax and close your eyes, relax 719 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,480 your jaw and sit still for about 10 minutes. 720 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,120 And our coaches will watch to make sure we're getting really 721 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,880 good data. You aren't like tightening up 722 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,120 your forehead or chewing your tongue or falling asleep. 723 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,080 And if so they'll gently OK, relax your forehead you know. 724 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,600 So there's someone getting good data streaming in and and oh and 725 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,920 I I skipped a step. The cap is actually plugged into 726 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,040 an EG amplifier that's not much bigger than a deck of cards and 727 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,240 it just stores the data on that little device and then it 728 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:48,680 buffers it off to a computer where we're watching the quality 729 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,640 come in and and we gather 10 minutes of eyes closed data. 730 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:53,960 We gather about 10 minutes of eyes open data. 731 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,640 The brain's in a very different mode, often for eyes closed 732 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,320 versus eyes open, especially in some visual tissue as you might 733 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,200 imagine. So once we have these baselines 734 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,640 then the actual EEG is done. That will turn into the 735 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,400 population comparisons, called a quantitative EEG. 736 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,240 We also have you do for 20 minutes the world's most boring 737 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:17,240 executive function test, where you sit and look at your 738 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,920 computer and you click the mouse for some things and don't click 739 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,400 the mouse for other things. But of course people get tired 740 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,960 and bored and space out and we sort of figure out how their 741 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,200 executive function works by making people perform at their 742 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,240 worst, You know, unloading everything and seeing how they 743 00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:38,360 can perform voluntarily to, you know, activate and and and pump 744 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,200 the brakes both and all that takes about 90 minutes and it's 745 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,640 kind of, you know, a little mildly annoying, but it doesn't 746 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,520 hurt or anything. And we would then take that 747 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,960 data, compare it to a bunch of population based analysis and 748 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,600 take a couple days. But we would generate, you know, 749 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,800 a dozen pages of outputs. And I then go through data with 750 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,280 clients and teach them to understand their data. 751 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,080 So it's not really like we write you a diagnostic report and say, 752 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,200 oh, you have ADHD, you have a concussion. 753 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,760 It's more like I say, hey look, here's this left side of your 754 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,440 brain. When it makes lots of alpha, 755 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,080 that makes it hard to stay focused. 756 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,840 Oh look, your focus is not that great on this performance test. 757 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,120 Oh, these things often come along with sleep maintenance 758 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:19,800 issue. Is that true for you? 759 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,560 Oh, it is. OK, Well then this low power 760 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,800 beta is also about maintenance of your vigilance, meaning that 761 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,160 you can't. Turn it on when you're focused 762 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:28,680 and can't turn it off when you're asleep. 763 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,000 Therefore you're a space cadet who can't sleep and is anxious, 764 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,080 you know, or something. And I'm not telling them 765 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,240 anything they don't know. But the tool set is really just, 766 00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:42,680 you know, get gathering the resting stuff that's coming off 767 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,120 the head, the the patterns of all these different machinery 768 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:51,280 bits, these, these, it's a primary and associated cortex, 769 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,120 all the communication you can sort of see a lot of it. 770 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,320 So that's the EEG for the brain mapping and then for brain 771 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,120 training or neurofeedback. We use a bit of a simpler system 772 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,400 because it's easier to replicate across people and got the same 773 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,040 effects and it's, you know easy to troubleshoot. 774 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,840 But we use a couple of channels of data for training, where you 775 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,600 put some ear clips on and one or two wires attached to the head, 776 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,280 bit of pace to stick it on the scalp. 777 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,920 And we spend a couple weeks working with clients. 778 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,080 The first two weeks, you know all your sessions, about 3 779 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,560 sessions a week, working with you and teaching you the basics, 780 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,480 teaching you to stick wires to your head, teaching you to get 781 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,120 software up and running to see if you have a good signal of 782 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,440 your EEG on the screen. And we're also developing a 783 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,000 fitness log, so to speak, of like, here's your workouts and 784 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,040 here's some ideas about your goals, and here's some things 785 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,080 that we should be trying for you in terms of neurofeedback. 786 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:46,080 And then as you move through them 2-3 sessions in, you start 787 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,040 getting these effects. So wait a minute, I might be 788 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,880 feeling, huh, OK. And then as you report changes, 789 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,600 sleep, stress, attention or specific goals, cravings, you 790 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,920 know, frustration, anger, creativity, brain fog, whatever 791 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,320 it is, as we start gently pushing on your brain, you get 792 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,920 these transient effects after a session or the next day, a 793 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,480 little subtle, like, wait a minute, huh, That felt a little 794 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,440 bit different, interesting. And then your sleep is different 795 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,800 that night or your calmness is or something and hey guys I 796 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,320 might have noticed something. So we have you felt surveys 797 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,200 every day, twice a day. If you can every morning, how's 798 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:20,840 your sleep every day? Well how's your day? 799 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,040 And then we give all the clients their own private chat that's 800 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,000 set up and sort of open all the time. 801 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,640 We we use Slack and every client is a private Slack channel. 802 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,800 So after the first couple of weeks, they can, you know, self 803 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,560 train and push the account up a little bit and work on more 804 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,320 stuff. But then we have this live 805 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,080 communication. So whenever someone's setting 806 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,280 up, if it's a new location on the head, they can take a quick 807 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,800 photograph and say, hey, is this wire in the right place? 808 00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:49,560 Or we can jump on their chat and say, hey, thanks for that 809 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,120 afternoon survey, Oh, sorry, your mother in law's a jerk. 810 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,880 Would you like to try a protocol for when someone's being a jerk 811 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,240 and you're feeling betrayed, 'cause we have one for that or 812 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:00,800 whatever. So there's this relationship we 813 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,880 develop with people where we're developing protocols for their 814 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,120 big goals, but also watching how things fluctuate day-to-day. 815 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,920 And that keeps us from being too attached to ideas about who they 816 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,400 are from the data up front. You know, it's an exploratory 817 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,080 exercise. We sort of get to the place of 818 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,400 where I'm teaching people how to read data and they're teaching 819 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,400 me what's important, and then I build neurofeedback. 820 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:22,960 And our coaches help you execute. 821 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,360 And as things start to shift, you report what you're noticing 822 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,320 and we iterate, kind of like personal training where we 823 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,040 adjust based on what you notice. And then the way that peak brain 824 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,720 works is we go back and map the brain again every 20 or 25 825 00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:38,760 sessions. So we do at least two brain maps 826 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,880 in all of our programs. Most of our programs are over a 827 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:47,000 few months and in like a three month program, we usually do the 828 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,000 first sort of repeat map about 6 or 8 weeks in, you know you've 829 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,640 done 25 sessions or so. And that's enough neurofeedback 830 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,600 guided by the stuff you've been saying, but that that's enough 831 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:05,400 neurofeedback to usually see a standard deviation of change in 832 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,160 the resting brain data and performance data. 833 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,640 So when someone comes in with brain fog from COVID or ADHD, or 834 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,240 they're not sleeping at night and you know, they're spacing 835 00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:19,920 out, 'cause you see huge changes in their performance in just six 836 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,400 or eight weeks, and the brain matches those changes. 837 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,440 And if you do 2 rounds of that, you know, maybe three months 838 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,520 total, that's when you're getting into session counts and 839 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,040 the amount of change where things have stopped wearing off 840 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,120 and the resources you've been working on at this point are 841 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,840 sort of now being practiced all the time. 842 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,880 And when you stop doing neurofeedback, the effects do 843 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,520 not go away for the for the big things, for the executive, the 844 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,160 stress or anxiety, the sleep, the fatigue, really good 845 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,840 stability for those regulatory features, Once they've changed 846 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,680 enough and even things like brain injuries and seizures and 847 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,320 things, you can still get them become permanent changes. 848 00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,600 You just have to often do a little more work because 849 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,840 there's, you know there's there's more to be done And the 850 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,880 injury, the seizure focus might push back initially, you know, 851 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,840 here and there until you finally get it done. 852 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,080 But for the most part neurofeedback re regulates your 853 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,000 brain. The brain's really good at at 854 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:18,080 staying regulated once it has a sense of where that you know, 855 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,320 lowest energy, maximum gain, best stability, kind of mode is 856 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,400 it likes to stay there, so. So, so you go through this, this 857 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,720 brain networking, EEG diagnostics, figure out where 858 00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:33,280 people are deficient, where they may be overcompensating, what 859 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,800 kind of their brain mapping looks like as an individual. 860 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,800 And then with the the treatment, kind of like the training you're 861 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:44,040 subjecting the brain to, is it like a like a binaural audible 862 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:44,600 thing? That's. 863 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,120 No, we're just measuring the brain as it changes and then 864 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,520 we're applauding it with either auditory or visual. 865 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,080 So benoral beats. The theory is that benoral beats 866 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,800 will drive the brain, although mineral beats the the science is 867 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,360 basically non existent to quite damning that they do anything. 868 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,320 So the human brain, as far as you know has no frequency 869 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,360 following response. It doesn't pick up a a binaural 870 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,000 beat. In the case of neurofeedback, 871 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,360 we're not stimulating or imposing something. 872 00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:16,440 We're watching what's happening, and when it happens to move in 873 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,400 the right direction, we applaud it. 874 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,880 And the brain notices that the mind is not because we can't 875 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:23,960 feel our brain waves. It's kinda like you're a 876 00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:26,600 participant as the mind. You're a participant in the 877 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,960 Symphony watching the music going, wow, this sounds awesome, 878 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,160 but the neurofeedback is like running over to one string 879 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,200 player on one corner of one row saying hey, tune up your D 880 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,880 string or whatever. And the conductor, the brain 881 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,120 goes, oh, that sounds great, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 882 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,360 And leans into it a little bit and the and the person in the 883 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,840 audience goes, wow, I enjoy this music but doesn't know exactly 884 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,760 why it sounded sweeter for that moment. 885 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,840 They just kind of go, huh, interesting. 886 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,600 So there's a bit of a mind brain disconnect here because you 887 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,000 can't feel your brain waves. The brain likes input over no 888 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:00,440 input. That's the big trick. 889 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,920 So if we measure 1 little tiny thing it's doing of a billion 890 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,800 things it's doing and yoke some contingent stimulus to it, you 891 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,720 know, only applaud. When it does that, the brain 892 00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:13,880 goes, whoa, whoa, Why is that? Oh, OK. 893 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,040 Wow. Bring an alpha up. 894 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,800 Make stuff happen. Nice. 895 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,280 OK, cool. And then it spends the next 20 896 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,880 minutes watching. Oh, whenever I bring my alpha 897 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:23,240 up, stuff's happening. Nice. 898 00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:24,520 Oh, OK. I like stuff. 899 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:26,600 I I don't like no stuff. Where's my nose? 900 00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:28,200 OK, there's there's my stuff. More alpha. 901 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,080 OK, cool. But the brain is the part that's 902 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,600 learning. The mind can't can't really feel 903 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,280 the brain waves fluctuating at that level. 904 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,840 A couple sessions of that and the brain goes, oh hey, alpha 905 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,520 was actually doing stuff yesterday, I'm going to bring my 906 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,720 alpha up today and the mind feels that. 907 00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:48,400 So you get this next day effect or later effect when the 908 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,600 learning question is answered by the brain. 909 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,160 This is no different than any other kind of associative 910 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,440 learning. The the trick is we're bypassing 911 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,880 a lot of the mind by measuring the brain in real time. 912 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,440 But this is very similar to the kind of learning that happens 913 00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,280 when you're a baby flopping around and suddenly you do a 914 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,040 baby push up and you're like, oh, I can see 12 feet. 915 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,920 And the brain was super excited to see 12 feet instead of two 916 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,400 feet, get all that extra rich information. 917 00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:15,800 And so it kind of remembers the different neurons that had to 918 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,960 fire to do that baby push up. And 5 minutes later the baby 919 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,480 goes what's over there and it wants to see further. 920 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,360 It doesn't think left arm, right arm, which neuron. 921 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,280 It just reaches for information and the brain goes, oh, OK, here 922 00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,600 you go. Here's that thing you were 923 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,360 trying to do. Here's that more information. 924 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:33,560 Here's the direction it lives in. 925 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,600 It lives in the direction of you moving your muscles this way. 926 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,680 Try it. And and then if it works, if the 927 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,960 body moves how you wish, the brick goes, yeah, yeah, cool, 928 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:44,920 cool, cool. And remembers how to do that. 929 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,640 So the more you wire together then over time. 930 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,240 So the more you fire together, the more you wire together. 931 00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:55,160 So over time you develop this, his ability to do a baby push up 932 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,360 or crawl or walk. But in the case of an adult or a 933 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,000 child or an animal, you can't feel your brain waves. 934 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,280 So they get shaped and then the mind gets to say the next day 935 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,040 often oh, hey, wait, I didn't notice anything. 936 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,880 Or hey, wait, hey, wait, hey, oh, I I noticed this. 937 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,880 And it's kind of mysterious but not blind because you're feeling 938 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,040 stuff. So if it's in the ballpark, you 939 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,160 do it again and you feel that again. 940 00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:26,760 And so you can learn from that. And it stops becoming as subtle 941 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,320 and it stops becoming transient as you repeat it. 942 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,480 See, as you repeat the same 20-30 minute workout, you know, 943 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:39,760 every other day or so, 34568 times the effect of that 944 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:44,160 particular neurofeedback protocol origins built up and up 945 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,160 and up and up and up and you go, whoa, this is, this is affecting 946 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,480 my creativity or my focus or whatever we're going after. 947 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,560 We can learn from that and adjust it as we go. 948 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,720 Dial the workout in and then you can build those workout paths 949 00:49:55,720 --> 00:49:58,600 that produce the subjective experiences you're looking at. 950 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,360 You're looking for and a bunch of different directions, but 951 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,240 it's really just your brain learning how it always learns. 952 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,240 We're just bypassing the mind by measuring the brain in real 953 00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:12,040 time. It's super interesting. 954 00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,520 So we're not bringing in any external. 955 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:19,800 No, No zapping and no imposing of no driving of information 956 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:21,440 even. It's just a simple stimulus, a 957 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,320 beep or a computer game reacting or a chime reacting whenever the 958 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,000 brain moves the To get a sense of how it's working, maybe I 959 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,120 should explain how it was discovered in the late 60s, 960 00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:37,040 early 60s. I think the research was first 961 00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,080 published in late 60s, but Doctor Barry Sturman was doing 962 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,080 research on cats. He's a learning scientist and 963 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,000 looking at how cats could learn. And NASA came to him and said, 964 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,920 hey, our astronauts are getting sick breathing in rocket fuel 965 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:53,480 vapors. Can you please figure out how 966 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,800 dangerous this stuff is in the 60s? 967 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,600 We're doing a lot more sort of destructive animal research. 968 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:03,040 So the methodology for this experiment to figure out the the 969 00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:08,760 toxicity curve for methyl hydrazine was to put cats in a 970 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,000 airtight cage with a beaker of methyl hydrazine and start a 971 00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,920 stopwatch. And Doctor Sturman did this 972 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:23,760 study on 32 cats and other 32 cats. 24 of them had a perfect 973 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,320 dose dependent curve where increased minutes meant 974 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,720 increased symptoms and they started off at about 20 minutes 975 00:51:29,720 --> 00:51:35,120 drooling and stumbling and then they got progressively worse. 976 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,240 And many of those cats of those first 24 were having seizures at 977 00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:42,040 about the the the 40 minute mark they were starting to show 978 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:46,560 instability events in the brain and that was sort of you know, 979 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,720 what was expected when toxins often create seizures. 980 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:56,400 So that was essentially the the the core of what NASA wanted to 981 00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,840 know. However, there was another 8 982 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,040 cats. He did a total of 32 and 24 of 983 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,480 them had this perfect like on the same curve. 984 00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,000 Eight of them were in a very different place, they showed 985 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:12,000 very few early symptoms and they needed to get like 2 1/2 hours 986 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,480 in before they showed any brain instability instead of 40 987 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,320 minutes. And well what what is this? 988 00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,840 Are these super cats some other cat gene or super variant or 989 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,520 something else? Or maybe maybe cats are seizure 990 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:24,800 resistant. We didn't know it. 991 00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,600 Well, no, actually. Turns out that he'd done another 992 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,880 experiment with those particular cats. 993 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,560 He's a learning scientist. He wondered if he could do 994 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,440 operant conditioning or shaping of the EEG. 995 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:40,360 So six months prior, he'd taken 8 cats out of the subject pool 996 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,960 and he'd taped a milk dropper inside their cheek and an EEG on 997 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,520 top of their head. An EEG wire. 998 00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,760 And whenever they made a particular brain wave, the cats 999 00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,160 make an awful lot of he'd squirted a little bit of chicken 1000 00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,640 broth into their mouth as a reward, and found that over a 1001 00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,320 couple of days he could shape up, he could reward up the 1002 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,200 amount of this particular brain wave. 1003 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,040 And you, you've seen this brain wave in action. 1004 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,120 You've felt it too probably when you see a cat lying on a window 1005 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,840 sill completely still. But watching a bird that like 1006 00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,520 frame response of deeply stealing and focusing at the 1007 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,280 same time, that's called sensory motor rhythm. 1008 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,800 And we all have it all mammals use it to do things like sit 1009 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,080 still and not be distracted. So literally the comcat on the 1010 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,640 windowsill is the opposite of ADHD, full stop, literally. 1011 00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:30,400 But SMR is also involved in things like sleep and seizure 1012 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,440 suppressant. It's it's called sleep spindles 1013 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:36,080 when you're sleeping or Sigma. So it helps you like not wake up 1014 00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:37,480 for every little sound you heard. 1015 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,360 Also triggers some of the memory consolidation process when 1016 00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,320 you're asleep, and Sturman found that it suppresses seizures 1017 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,480 quite strongly in this population of cats, even well 1018 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,120 after it was done. And his lab manager was 1019 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:55,080 epileptic and uncontrolled on all kinds of crazy medication in 1020 00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,640 the late 60s. Tegretol, Meberol and Dilantin. 1021 00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,200 All kinds of things that were major, major drugs and not 1022 00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,280 controlling her seizures. She was still having 10s of 1023 00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,880 seizures every month and they built an auditory feedback 1024 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,480 system where it beeped whenever her SMR went up and they trained 1025 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,920 it off and on for a few months and she tapered all of her crazy 1026 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:19,440 drugs and became seizure free for a year and he published that 1027 00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:23,360 and that was the start of the field and that's why a lot of 1028 00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,040 the epilepsy work and seizure work sort of blew up from there. 1029 00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,920 But EEG is a sleep science in general and so we found that it 1030 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,840 actually affected sleep quality quite profoundly. 1031 00:54:33,240 --> 00:54:38,040 And so EEG sorry, epilepsy sleep and then executive function 1032 00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,120 because that inhibitory tone that sitting still thing that 1033 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:47,560 you can't do when you're super ADHD that's also SMR sensory 1034 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,960 motor rhythm, the ability to sit still and inhibit to pump the 1035 00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,760 brakes. So it was kind of a three Fer 1036 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,400 where one discovery produced not only the whole new technique in 1037 00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,080 the field of manipulating the brain, but produced the same 1038 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:04,880 stabilization effect that would impact really powerfully things 1039 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:10,040 like seizure, sleep and ADHD. So that is to some extent why 1040 00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:14,600 the field just blew up in the 70s and 80s because you actually 1041 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:16,760 create changes in all of those areas. 1042 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,920 But it's also kind of a little mysterious, you know, black art 1043 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,160 a little bit. So it remained really kind of 1044 00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,000 fringy. I mean 15,000 people in the 1045 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,240 whole world doing this professionally or you know, half 1046 00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:30,720 that in the US there's probably more than that in terms of 1047 00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:34,800 chiropractors in Los Angeles, you know, like it's just still 1048 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,240 really, really nichy. And I mean, I've got a PhD in 1049 00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:41,120 neuroscience and of the field, there may be one or two others 1050 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,160 in the whole field who are at my level in terms of, like, 1051 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,320 academic prep. The vast majority of people 1052 00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:49,760 become clinicians, you know, therapists, psychologists, 1053 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,920 something, you know, social workers in a specific area. 1054 00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:57,040 They care about trauma, autism, ADHD, eating disorders, 1055 00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:58,920 concussions, sport performance, something. 1056 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:00,960 And then they're like, well, wait a minute, what's this 1057 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,760 neurofeedback stuff being used with my population of interest? 1058 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,000 That looks interesting. And they discovered that the 1059 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,800 technique is crazy powerful in the thing they care about. 1060 00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:12,760 And they become primarily neurofeedback providers who do 1061 00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,360 therapy on the side. That's most of the field, but 1062 00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:21,280 they learn their neurofeedback from a vendor or in a three day 1063 00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,000 workshop or. And so a lot of the field, the 1064 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,240 quality issue is about, well, is the person you're working with 1065 00:56:28,240 --> 00:56:29,880 good. This is why I balked a little 1066 00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:31,800 bit earlier at like you know, other tools out there. 1067 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:33,920 Oh yeah, sure. There's all kinds of tools that 1068 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,560 you can purchase. I could do any neurofeedback 1069 00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:40,240 with any of the tools though. And somebody who's, you know, 1070 00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,440 not great couldn't do, couldn't do good neurofeedback with any 1071 00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,960 of the tools. The one concern on that I would 1072 00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,640 say to add in a little bit is if the tool is so magical it does 1073 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,440 all the work. It doesn't. 1074 00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,240 You know, the more magical the tools are that someone's trying 1075 00:56:55,240 --> 00:56:56,760 to sell you, the less you should believe them. 1076 00:56:57,240 --> 00:57:00,440 Neurofeedback's pretty awesome. But if the tool doesn't do 1077 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,000 assessments, if the person doesn't talk about your unique 1078 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,400 needs, if it's a black box that supposedly works for everyone 1079 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,120 and finds your unique thing you need and does it all 1080 00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,840 automatically, it's it's a sham and you probably should find 1081 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:17,240 somebody else to work with, but it's not deeply mysterious. 1082 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,360 You can learn yourself what's going on and get deeper into it 1083 00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:23,320 so you know. Again, that's a lot of what we 1084 00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,720 do is teach you. But any therapist who works with 1085 00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,120 a Q, e.g. Can sit you down with your QEG 1086 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,160 and say look, here's some unusual features and they alpha 1087 00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,640 mean XY and Z. Yeah, and that'll make sense to 1088 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:35,600 you. So I encourage you, if you're 1089 00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:37,560 already working with somebody and you've done a brain map but 1090 00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:39,760 haven't actually dug through it with them, ask them to. 1091 00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,960 And if you are doing, thinking of doing neurofeedback, that's a 1092 00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:49,520 great criteria for selecting if the person you're working with 1093 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,960 is likely on the evidence based careful data-driven side. 1094 00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,600 You know if they do brain mapping mostly because it's kind 1095 00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:00,560 of complicated and hard to do so no one bothers to do it. 1096 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,080 If they're looking for those quick fix magic boxes and trying 1097 00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:06,400 to sell you AI mean there's a couple software packages and 1098 00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,640 power packages out there that are sold into the neurofeedback 1099 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:10,320 space. Kind of like their multi level 1100 00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,280 marketing where you buy a territory and you know it's a 1101 00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,080 you can tell because their language around what they're 1102 00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:20,360 selling is kind of weird. Like they both say it's not 1103 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,920 neurofeedback but also say that it's better neurofeedback than 1104 00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:26,640 anyone else at the same time. So. 1105 00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:31,360 If it's a, you know, slight, slightly off topic question, but 1106 00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,000 if if they're if the brain training is performed as a 1107 00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,880 result of applauding certain brain waves that are happening, 1108 00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,080 you know, as they happen natively. 1109 00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:46,600 Is there any situation in which a person does not produce enough 1110 00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,080 of those brain waves for there to be a measurable impact over 1111 00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:51,560 time? Like a psychopath for instance? 1112 00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:53,760 Like are they totally devoid of a certain brain wave and 1113 00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,240 therefore not able to train up that brain wave? 1114 00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,240 For the most part, no. It almost always works. 1115 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,840 However, you can have a brain that's so compromised, 1116 00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:07,560 especially with deep metabolic compromise, where there's just 1117 00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,760 not enough to lift off. And sometimes also the brain is 1118 00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,240 so hot, so reactive because of that, that it's really hard to 1119 00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,800 work with. Like if you have an active Lyme 1120 00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:22,480 exposure and lots of Co infections and there's tons of 1121 00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:27,480 neuro inflammation, you have to take care of that first before 1122 00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,360 doing something like neurofeedback generally. 1123 00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:33,160 And it any anything where you're so acute that the hormetic 1124 00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,400 stressors, you know, sauna, hyperbaric hot and cold, all 1125 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,640 that stuff, If those things would be too taxing, the 1126 00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:43,120 neurofeedback might be as well. But barring that, it works as as 1127 00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:45,160 long as there's brain to work on. 1128 00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:49,440 And you know, if you're very advanced with dementias, for 1129 00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,560 instance, you've lost a lot of brain tissue, it's going to be 1130 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,040 really hard to make much change with neurofeedback. 1131 00:59:55,680 --> 01:00:00,360 But barring that, it's more about what it works for and and 1132 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,800 what it doesn't. And it works for shockingly 1133 01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:04,680 large amount of things we would not think. 1134 01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:06,880 I mean, I mentioned the big regulatory, you know, sleep, 1135 01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,920 stress, attention, sensory, social speed, stability. 1136 01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:15,760 But it also works reliably on creativity, boosting reliably on 1137 01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,240 being able to put. Language sorry, emotions in a 1138 01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:22,640 language reliably on bringing up your T cells, believe it or not. 1139 01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:26,400 So it's not just about deciding you want to work on like 1140 01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,680 relaxation or my anxiety. It's kind of like, well, if it's 1141 01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:33,080 a brain thing and you can measure it happening and see it 1142 01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,200 in data. The one of the things about 1143 01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:40,600 brain mapping or or QEG is we're looking at resting EEG patterns 1144 01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,800 that are stable across minutes. So while they're hard to 1145 01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,880 understand, a quantitative EEG is a fingerprint of sort of 1146 01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,920 resources traits for you, so everyone's got them. 1147 01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:58,240 The only time you wouldn't see patterns in an EEG there is a 1148 01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:00,200 certain variant called low and slow. 1149 01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:03,240 If someone's experienced a very severe, you know, drowning, 1150 01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:08,560 accelerated aging, then the EEG gets very, very low amplitude 1151 01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,200 and you might not see a lot. But that's very, very rare. 1152 01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,200 Usually when you don't see a lot, which can happen, maybe one 1153 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:17,080 person out of, like 102 hundred, you just won't see a lot. 1154 01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:19,600 Everyone else, you're like, oh wow, here's a bunch of weird 1155 01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:21,360 stuff. Cool, good, you're you're weird. 1156 01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:24,160 Let's figure out what if this matters to you, 'cause, you 1157 01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:26,760 know, there's a bunch of things that could be true, and it turns 1158 01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,040 out that most of them are usually true, you know? 1159 01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,800 But like, of this, of the eight we see, seven are true, usually 1160 01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:34,880 or something. But the other variant, which 1161 01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:40,120 people should be aware of is every so often you do an EEG and 1162 01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:43,040 a brain map and it comes back and you don't don't see 1163 01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,640 anything. And this is because some people 1164 01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:50,360 have a thick skull and if your ethnicity, your genetics are 1165 01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:54,880 such that your skull is 10 percent, 20% thicker, you might 1166 01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:58,040 get a dampening of the entire EEG from the outside of the head 1167 01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,880 in a way that makes it hard to use tools that are population 1168 01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:02,680 compared, you know, resting patterns. 1169 01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:08,240 But that's kind of rare, and generally it's a deeply 1170 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:10,240 revealing experience to look at a brain. 1171 01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:15,200 And generally you can then, I mean, I've worked with well over 1172 01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:17,400 8000 people. Last time I counted it was 8000. 1173 01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:21,600 That was a couple years ago. And I can count. 1174 01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,800 It wouldn't even fill one hand to count the number of people 1175 01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:28,120 who don't like get the experience of having their brain 1176 01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:29,640 changed. After several sessions of 1177 01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:31,360 neurofeedback, we feel it happening. 1178 01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,280 Report on changes, have those progress as they report stuff 1179 01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:37,200 it. It's kind of like exercise. 1180 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:40,000 It almost always works. It does the thing you want it to 1181 01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,800 do, but you have to do the right exercise. 1182 01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:47,040 You go into the gym for a blown out low back and all you do is 1183 01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,200 calf raises. It's probably not going to work 1184 01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:51,720 on you for the goal you walked in for. 1185 01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,320 It might even make things worse depending on how the machine's 1186 01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:56,440 set up. So that's the that's the real 1187 01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,040 concern, the real nuance if you about neurofeedback. 1188 01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,160 And This is why I encourage folks to not just use people 1189 01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,840 that do brain mapping. Learn. 1190 01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,680 Learn to read your own maps. Look at your resting patterns, 1191 01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,480 Figure out what they might mean. Figure out where the stuff you 1192 01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,320 know about are frustrated about. Want to change? 1193 01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:17,200 Figure out where and how it shows up in your resting data. 1194 01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:19,640 Just like you know it's all the rage the past few years for 1195 01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:22,760 everyone to wear sleep trackers. I mean, everyone's looking at 1196 01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,440 their deep sleep and total sleep and that's awesome. 1197 01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,200 And everyone looks at their blood panels and triglycerides. 1198 01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:32,720 But like 20-30 forty years ago no one looked at triglycerides 1199 01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,400 and you know, thought of it the same way. 1200 01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,240 Maybe your doctor did, but you sure didn't yourself. 1201 01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:42,280 And and this these days people were in CGMS and blowing into 1202 01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:45,680 keto ketone meters. And you know you can also look 1203 01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:48,400 at your alpha speed for how rapidly you can absorb and 1204 01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:52,280 retrieve information. You can look at your Theta power 1205 01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:55,000 for how well you can shift gears and see patterns. 1206 01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,400 So it's just another tool, but. Not so, Yeah, we. 1207 01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:02,800 We we think it's underutilized. So, so, so for me, I'm gonna ask 1208 01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:05,680 a selfish question here. I've always struggled with 1209 01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:08,720 pretty incredible OCD. Like, not just. 1210 01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:10,960 Oh, I gotta check the doors, make sure they're locked three 1211 01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:12,280 times. Yeah, that's the front midline. 1212 01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:13,720 We'll see that in your brain maps. 1213 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,880 Yeah, like, I'm talking like legitimate Howard Hughes OCD. 1214 01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:19,560 Yeah, and it'll it'll jump right out in your brain maps. 1215 01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:22,000 It's it'll be a powerful brain that's stuck, basically. 1216 01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:25,520 Yeah, and like I I've found ways to leverage that to my 1217 01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:27,400 advantage. Like, I've been able to use that 1218 01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:28,760 within the sport of bodybuilding. 1219 01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:30,600 Like, I've been able to really hone in on that. 1220 01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,640 But there are times where it is nearly debilitating. 1221 01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:36,240 So that is likely a result of what? 1222 01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:39,880 Brain wave? Probably beta if it's classic 1223 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,240 OCD type stuff. You know, like ritual behavior, 1224 01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:44,240 intrusive, you know DO, and the C, so to speak. 1225 01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,880 It's usually beta, the gas pedals turned on super high in 1226 01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,480 the front midline. Sometimes it's not that, 1227 01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:51,800 sometimes it's lack of alpha you can't find the neutral. 1228 01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:55,680 Sometimes less common for your flavor, it's a extra Theta where 1229 01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:57,960 you're disinhibited and the mind's latching on to the very 1230 01:04:57,960 --> 01:04:59,480 next thing to get obsessed about. 1231 01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:02,840 That's more like nail biting in a tick or a song in your head. 1232 01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:07,400 But ticks are Theta excess. Classic intrusive repetitive 1233 01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:09,920 stuff or obsessive compulsive stuff is beta excess. 1234 01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:14,000 The gas pedals turned up too high in the CEO, but you know. 1235 01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,160 Remediation for that would be a down regulation of beta and an 1236 01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,720 up regulation of alpha. Yeah, think of this like a 1237 01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:20,800 range. Like like a like a range of 1238 01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:22,760 motion exercise. You walk in with a with a tight 1239 01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:24,440 shoulder that's powerful but locked up. 1240 01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,800 You're going to want to start stretching it and then do some 1241 01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,920 range of motion. And in this case, you'd 1242 01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:33,080 probably, you wouldn't just do one thing, you know, you'd just 1243 01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:34,400 go to the gym and do one exercise. 1244 01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:36,280 You know, you want to mix it up and balance the system. 1245 01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:39,000 But we do a couple things. You know, maybe 15 minutes of 1246 01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:41,320 one of those would be sticking wires to the front and back 1247 01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:44,440 midline over the anterior and posterior cingulate because 1248 01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:48,680 they're connected. And both of yours will probably 1249 01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:52,240 have something interesting in your data, plus an ear clip, so 1250 01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,280 three wires for the first half of your workout. 1251 01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,880 Computer simply sits back and watches your alpha, which is the 1252 01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:01,040 relaxation tone on those singlets and probably watches 1253 01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:03,760 both the Theta, which is disinhibition, and beta, which 1254 01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,560 is over activation for you. One would guess in this example, 1255 01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,040 but it's not a static level of beta you're making or alpha 1256 01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:11,480 you're making. It's fluctuating moment to 1257 01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,520 moment, up and down, you know, back and forth, reacting to all 1258 01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:16,800 kinds of things. And so it's this variable thing. 1259 01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,120 Computer starts watching it and watches the momentary micro 1260 01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,760 volts. You're making an alpha moment to 1261 01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,680 moment. You know 10/11/15, 8:10, four. 1262 01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:26,760 You know up and down, up and down. 1263 01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,680 Moment to moment. Also the beta, also the Theta. 1264 01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:34,040 And then every so often, every few seconds, the Theta and the 1265 01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:37,880 beta happened to go down at the same time, the alpha comes up. 1266 01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:41,240 And when the brain spends half a second trending in that 1267 01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:44,480 direction, the computer goes, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1268 01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:46,840 And Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding starts to 1269 01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:49,320 happen and your little car starts to move on the screen or 1270 01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:50,840 your puzzle pieces start to fill in. 1271 01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:54,600 Your Pac-Man starts to eat dots. Stuff starts to happen, and the 1272 01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:57,000 mind notices it, sure. But the brain's going, oh wait, 1273 01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:59,120 cool. There's some new stuff. 1274 01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:03,880 And a couple seconds later, that alpha wave cluster that was that 1275 01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:05,880 was a bit more robust for a couple seconds and may dip 1276 01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:07,520 again. The beta might come up to 1277 01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:11,400 replace it again and the game slows down, but it's this 1278 01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,680 passive applause. The brain's like, watching, and 1279 01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,960 essentially the computer's applauding what just happened in 1280 01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:18,440 the past? You aren't in control of 1281 01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,160 steering it because it's applauding things that happened 1282 01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:23,160 and you can't feel those things. Really. 1283 01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,720 So you're some noticing. Oh wait, the game's stopping 1284 01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:26,720 again. Really. 1285 01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:31,000 This is training my brain. OK, But the third time you you, 1286 01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:33,840 you finish a session, you stand up and you're like, oh, wait a 1287 01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:38,120 minute, I feel a little bit calm. 1288 01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:41,640 I have a friend with pretty intrusive OCD and and I was 1289 01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:46,200 opening my office 8 1/2 years ago, the the main office in Los 1290 01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,200 Angeles. You know, she was doing some 1291 01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:49,960 training in there. I was having her check out some 1292 01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:51,760 new software. There's one particular game she 1293 01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:54,120 really enjoyed, that flying dragon on the screen. 1294 01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,400 And she came in for a session. I set her up and I was making 1295 01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:00,000 some coffee in the background and I heard giggling coming out 1296 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:03,920 of the training Room 0. OK, So I walked to him like, 1297 01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,080 hey, what's up? You know, enjoying the dragon, 1298 01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:08,200 enjoying the games. Like, yeah, yeah, but. 1299 01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:11,760 But I noticed something. I spent all of my life pushing 1300 01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:16,000 back against the OCD, holding it at Bay, and I just noticed it 1301 01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,240 wasn't there. So I I I reached for it. 1302 01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:20,680 I tried to find it. I tried to reach for the 1303 01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:22,800 obsessiveness, and I couldn't find it. 1304 01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:25,080 I can't find it right now. I'm not obsessed at all. 1305 01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:27,080 I'm not resisting it. I'm looking for it. 1306 01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:30,640 My mind is so calm. And she was giggling because it 1307 01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:34,640 was like just a one experience to have a mind that like not 1308 01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:38,920 only wasn't pushing back, but was just like calm under 1309 01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:40,560 control. And we were doing midline 1310 01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:42,840 training of the cingulates, bringing down that beta. 1311 01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:47,319 And her brain was like, oh, alpha, yeah, And it just 1312 01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:51,399 unclenched that resource and she felt it. 1313 01:08:51,399 --> 01:08:53,760 She felt herself unclenched. And it was just the most 1314 01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:57,040 enjoyable, almost silly experience for her that way. 1315 01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:01,359 So like if I was wanting to or one of the listeners wanted to 1316 01:09:01,359 --> 01:09:04,600 move forward on this and try and do the brain mapping, figure out 1317 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:08,080 where their brain is, understand how to read that data and then 1318 01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:10,720 you know go to this protocol, what what does that look like? 1319 01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:15,319 Do they just go to your site and have this this shipped to them 1320 01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:16,720 and have the trainer walk them through it? 1321 01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:18,479 Or what is that process like? Yeah, yeah. 1322 01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:19,720 You, you, you. You can. 1323 01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:22,640 Yeah, a couple different ways you can work with us. 1324 01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:24,840 We have two different sort of price points. 1325 01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:28,080 One is if you just want to do brain mapping in our offices 1326 01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:31,200 because it's a lot more accessible and if you're near, 1327 01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:35,600 you know, LA or Orange County, Saint Louis, New York, Miami, 1328 01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:38,520 London, Stockholm, then you can buy a membership. 1329 01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:43,479 The list on that is 500 bucks in the US and about £300 in the UK. 1330 01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,760 Podcast listeners get that for half price, so it's a 250 once a 1331 01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:51,000 year membership at at a peak brain office and Brain maps are 1332 01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:53,640 unlimited. It's this exploratory tool for 1333 01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:55,160 you to use to understand yourself. 1334 01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:57,200 Now I can't give you unlimited time of mind. 1335 01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,120 I'll give you at least two instructional consults working 1336 01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:02,800 with you directly. But we give us very low cost 1337 01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:04,040 access. If you're near one of the 1338 01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:07,040 offices and want to pop in because you aren't sure you know 1339 01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:08,840 if this is worth getting into more deeply. 1340 01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:12,120 And that's sort of the the best deal in the world for brain 1341 01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:13,960 mapping access from our perspective. 1342 01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:16,720 So that's one thing people can do this sort of peak brain 1343 01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:20,440 membership and the other thing we do is things that combine 1344 01:10:20,440 --> 01:10:23,760 both brain mapping and the brain training, the neurofeedback. 1345 01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:26,920 And those programs are, you know our shortest one is 6 weeks, 1346 01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:28,480 they got three months, we have six months. 1347 01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:33,320 Those can be done fully virtually and you can again take 1348 01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:37,440 250 off the list price of one of those packages. 1349 01:10:37,440 --> 01:10:39,920 Those a little bit more, but those always include remote 1350 01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:42,960 brain maps as well as remote neurofeedback. 1351 01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:45,640 So if you know you want to get in and change yourself then you 1352 01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:48,000 can take a discount off a fully remote program. 1353 01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:50,640 But if you're like, oh hey, I want to dig my toe in and figure 1354 01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:53,800 out what this is and try to understand myself, you can pop 1355 01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:55,800 into one of our cities and give us some, you know, advance 1356 01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:59,000 notice and then I'll spend a couple days looking over data 1357 01:10:59,000 --> 01:10:59,960 with you and. What? 1358 01:10:59,960 --> 01:11:02,200 What is that virtual package cost? 1359 01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:06,720 So the the standard one we do is 3 months because that's enough 1360 01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:10,840 neurofeedback for your to change your brain like get couple 1361 01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:14,880 standard deviations for ADHD for instance of executive function, 1362 01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,640 you know real solid change. And in that program we do at 1363 01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:21,280 least 2 remote brain maps and we try to have you do 55 sessions 1364 01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:23,560 of neurofeedback. So it's you know pretty intense, 1365 01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:27,160 worked four times a week and we charge about 6K total for that 1366 01:11:27,160 --> 01:11:29,240 when it's an undiscounted program. 1367 01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:33,840 So it's -250 for your listeners. So it ends up being about 100 1368 01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,440 bucks a session at the three month level in our big programs. 1369 01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:40,120 We have a shorter program which a little more expensive. 1370 01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:44,440 It's I think 3500 US before the discount and that lets you get 1371 01:11:44,440 --> 01:11:46,280 again two brain maps done remotely. 1372 01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:48,880 But now we're probably only getting about 20 sessions of 1373 01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:52,480 neurofeedback in, which is more than enough to feel it and 1374 01:11:52,480 --> 01:11:54,360 probably feel a lot of your goals change. 1375 01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:57,280 But 20 sessions is sort of the minimum where you'd be seeing 1376 01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:01,280 the changes built up. And usually it's sort of takes 1377 01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:05,640 about twice that much training to lock in the permanent changes 1378 01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:08,600 And enough of the change. You know, like it doesn't. 1379 01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:13,080 There's nothing wrong with doing it in chunks either, though. 1380 01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,240 This is not bodybuilding where you take a week off from 1381 01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:19,200 physical exercise and every week you lose 9% of your strength or 1382 01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:21,720 something, you know, as you as you backslide because the 1383 01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:24,080 pressure is not kept on. The brain is not like that. 1384 01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:26,160 Once you do enough neurofeedback, which is only a 1385 01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:30,560 few weeks, then whenever you resume it, the brain's like, Oh 1386 01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:32,040 yeah, this stuff. And it just kind of picks up 1387 01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:35,360 where it left off. So it's more about can you get 1388 01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:38,440 some sessions in, in a week to start in the movement, the 1389 01:12:38,440 --> 01:12:42,080 process of shaping change. But you don't have to do it in 1390 01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:45,280 one, you know, giant months and months and months. 1391 01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:48,440 But we do encourage you to do, you know, a few weeks at a time, 1392 01:12:48,440 --> 01:12:50,560 so to speak. And our shortest remote program 1393 01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:54,440 is a six week program because that's really going to get you a 1394 01:12:54,440 --> 01:12:56,840 nice amount of data change. You're going to feel stuff. 1395 01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:59,720 We're going to do a couple of brain maps and that's I would 1396 01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:02,960 say about 1/2 of a a standard program. 1397 01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:05,920 Like if you came in with a, you know, PTSD or drinking too much 1398 01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:10,440 or post COVID brain fog or ADHD or creativity goals or athletic 1399 01:13:10,440 --> 01:13:13,800 performance goals, you almost always want to do at least 40 1400 01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:16,120 sessions. And in our three month program, 1401 01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:18,680 we can do 40 in one of our offices, which is like just 1402 01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:21,040 three times a week, which is honestly plenty. 1403 01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:24,120 But if you're home, we encourage you to crank it up 'cause you 1404 01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:27,280 know, you got the gear, you got the brain, you have coaches on, 1405 01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:31,000 So why don't you get 4 sessions in a week and we charge the same 1406 01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:32,920 office and home. We just encourage the session 1407 01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:36,120 count to be a little higher at home because that's that's the 1408 01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:37,680 trade off. You come into offices and get 1409 01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:41,800 taken care of a few times a week or you learn and have us 1410 01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:45,520 remotely jumping in whenever you need, but you learn deeper and 1411 01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:48,440 therefore you can try more things and get, you know, get 1412 01:13:48,440 --> 01:13:52,760 deeper into it. So sort of a trade off for us to 1413 01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:54,080 facilitate a part of it you know? 1414 01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:56,240 This is super intriguing though, 'cause I'm all about 1415 01:13:56,560 --> 01:14:00,920 quantifiable data and I've, you know, figured out how to improve 1416 01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:04,160 the OCD for me specifically over time for sure. 1417 01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:07,720 But to be able to actually map that out and see it illustrated 1418 01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:11,880 and then figure out a way to, you know, shift things one way 1419 01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:15,120 or the other based off of that neurofeedback would be really 1420 01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:16,840 interesting. You can certainly change it with 1421 01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:19,280 neurofeedback, but you know, you also if you look at your brain 1422 01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:22,960 and you have a classic front midline signature, well then 1423 01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:25,520 that actually suggests 3 or 4 different interventions that you 1424 01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:29,760 might not have tried. For instance, you know an acetyl 1425 01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:34,520 cysteine works really well on medication resistant OCD. 1426 01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:38,600 So if you've tried SSRIs, they don't work, and you have a front 1427 01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:42,960 midline hotspot in beta, well then try an acetyl cysteine 1428 01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:44,160 because it's probably gonna work. 1429 01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:47,880 I've never, I've never tried to medicate it, imagine able to. 1430 01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:50,160 I've learned to work with it and leverage it. 1431 01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:51,520 But. But yeah. 1432 01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:54,560 Yeah, it's a bit of a strength you know OCD and CEO kind of 1433 01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:55,840 brain it's, it's kind of a hybrid. 1434 01:14:55,840 --> 01:15:00,000 It doesn't always get in the way and and people often do learn, 1435 01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,280 but people also mature, especially kids with OCD, they 1436 01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:06,120 start off with ticks, really severe OCD, and over time they 1437 01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:08,600 get better inhibitory tone, better pumping the brakes and 1438 01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:10,800 the brain. So they often it moves from a 1439 01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:13,240 tick into a sense of nervousness, you know, for a kid 1440 01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:16,280 to an adolescent or an adolescent moves from, you know, 1441 01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:19,800 picking and ticking into having like songs in their head in 1442 01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:22,520 their 20s. So the brain does regulate these 1443 01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:24,480 features. But yeah, this stuff is some of 1444 01:15:24,480 --> 01:15:28,280 the most visible, some of the most visible patterns we can see 1445 01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:30,160 in a brain map. So you know, we could definitely 1446 01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:35,080 capture this for you and show you your your your quirky brain. 1447 01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:37,320 Yeah. No, I I would love to do that. 1448 01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:39,640 I'd love to do that. And then get you back on to kind 1449 01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:42,400 of go over the analysis, you know, like on a podcast. 1450 01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:44,400 That'd be intriguing for sure. Yeah, we can. 1451 01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:46,360 We can send you out a remote system and just do a map. 1452 01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:48,960 I bet we we don't do a lot of a la carte maps, but we can do one 1453 01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:50,800 for you. I would definitely. 1454 01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:53,280 I mean, I've I've never like, I've had a lot of people in the 1455 01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:55,280 podcast. This is like episode 650 or 1456 01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:57,920 something crazy. But I've not really dove into 1457 01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:01,040 this with any of my guests. So this is this is very 1458 01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:03,480 interesting to me. Yeah, well, certainly if you 1459 01:16:03,480 --> 01:16:06,120 have any reason to be near any of our locations, you can just 1460 01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:09,240 grab a quick set of data or two, you know, look at how, look at 1461 01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:11,800 how it's flared on caffeine for instance, or pre workout 'cause 1462 01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:16,440 it 'cause it would be, you know, for instance, but you're more 1463 01:16:16,440 --> 01:16:18,520 than welcome to do that. But also, you know, let me know 1464 01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:20,160 and we'll we'll shoot you off a remote system. 1465 01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:22,600 I'll have one of the senior coaches do a recording and teach 1466 01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:25,560 a little bit more directly. Yeah, and then you can. 1467 01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:28,080 You know, you can do a review with me after and both of those 1468 01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:30,440 things can be content is if you want them to be, you know, yeah, 1469 01:16:30,440 --> 01:16:32,280 that's fine. They don't have to be. 1470 01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:34,920 We won't make you share if you don't feel comfortable later. 1471 01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:38,360 No, no, I think, you know, I think simply just driving more 1472 01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:41,200 awareness to this and empowering people because like with the 1473 01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:43,680 CGMS, for instance, you know, like you said, people were not 1474 01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:47,920 doing this 20-30 years ago, but so many people have become 1475 01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:50,400 enlightened as to what they're eating, how that's impacting 1476 01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:54,360 blood sugar regulation, how to, you know, actively control for 1477 01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:56,280 it. And it only makes sense that the 1478 01:16:56,280 --> 01:16:59,080 same would be true for what the brain is illustrating. 1479 01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:03,040 So I think this is certainly viable and most definitely 1480 01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:04,760 actionable once you have the right tools. 1481 01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:08,640 Well, I think so, but I'm a little bit maybe biased, so you 1482 01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:10,240 know. No, I think it's super 1483 01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:11,800 interesting. So very cool. 1484 01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:13,120 Where where do people go? Like what? 1485 01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:14,240 What's the website that people wanna go? 1486 01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:17,600 Dive deeper into your world. So Peak Brain Institute is the 1487 01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:20,960 company, and you can just go to peakbraininstitute.com on the 1488 01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:24,240 socials. We're at Peak Brain LA I I think 1489 01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:26,160 mine's Andrew Hill, PhD everywhere. 1490 01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:28,200 But you know, you'll see some brain health stuff. 1491 01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:33,360 You'll mostly see like my baking habit and things like that in 1492 01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:35,120 the personal website and the personal socials. 1493 01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:37,880 But Peek Brain LA is the socials everywhere and Peek Brain 1494 01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:40,720 Institute is the website. So hit us up and let us know 1495 01:17:40,720 --> 01:17:44,560 where you heard about neurofeedback and we will give 1496 01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:47,840 all podcast listeners A-250 discount which gets you a a half 1497 01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:51,160 price in person membership for mapping or you can take the 250 1498 01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:53,080 off of any larger program as well. 1499 01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:57,480 So it keeps it super competitive in the USI think we're among the 1500 01:17:57,680 --> 01:17:59,560 the most accessible pricing out there, so. 1501 01:17:59,880 --> 01:18:01,240 Awesome. Well I can't thank you enough 1502 01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:02,880 for the time, Andrew. Your wealth of knowledge. 1503 01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:05,320 I will certainly link out, make it easy for people to find you, 1504 01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:06,920 and I will definitely be following up with you because 1505 01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:10,040 I'm very intrigued about diving into this for my own personal 1506 01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:11,400 use for sure. Great. 1507 01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:13,000 Well, thanks for having me, Sir. I really appreciate it. 1508 01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:13,800 Nice talking to you. Today. 1509 01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:14,920 You bet. Have a good one.