Hello, ladies and gents Roberts. Thanks, kiddo.
Service.com today. I've got special, repeat guests.
Jim Howard back on the line. He is the head honcho at
biosense. They make a really impressive
little Ketone breath monitor that measures acetone I've been
playing around here for a while. I've been using it been kind of
experimenting with it. He is incredibly knowledgeable
when it comes to how this device can be used in a clinical
setting, how it can be dictating, what your actions
throughout the day are to improve your level of fat
oxidation and honestly just knows a lot.
What's going on in the space with And to measuring ketones
measuring glucose. And this is how to kind of hack
or measure these biometric so to speak.
So without further Ado, sit back relax and do the podcast with
Jim Howard and we are Live Jim.
How are you brother? Hey, good afternoon to you.
How you doing Robert? I'm good, man, I'm good it.
When was the last time we recorded the podcast on my show?
Probably it's been over a year now, right?
I think it was more than two years ago.
It's like right, when right, when biosense was just being
kind of launching a pilot, maybe right before our 8,000 9,000
person Pilots? Oh yeah.
Well, I've gots the biosense mean actually just used it in
preparation for this podcast, but mine still says sample on
the back of it. So I guess that must be one of
the OG ones, right? Oh my gosh.
So that it's been probably almost two and a half years.
He's fucking you need it. We need to get you in.
New one for sure. Is it pretty much the same
functionality that with the newer ones?
Yeah, yeah there's about twenty six iterations of monitoring
ketosis and the breath as it changes and that's that's the
key thing. So it's probably four times as
fast. It's the app has tons of
information in there to guide, you know, competitive athletes
or, you know, the soccer mom Community or whoever or clinics,
you know, we have a big clinical side of our business too.
But monitoring that level of ketosis, does it changes
throughout the day and then providing feedback?
Nice. Nice.
Well shoot man, I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, beat
a dead horse. But everything that we talked
about in the last podcast you know, people can certainly
listen to that one but it probably would be worthwhile
since so much has changed in those two and a half years.
Can you kind of give the listeners a little bit of
background into what this biosense monitor is?
And kind of what's changed, and what are you excited about going
forward with it? Yeah, yeah.
So we came out of the gate as the only clinical-grade device
that measures breath breath is really tricky as a as a You
know, modality to measure Ketone levels as they change and, you
know, in weight loss, every single program tries to put you
into some level of fat oxidation or ketosis, we call that.
So to do that, you prick, your finger a lot or you, you know,
you breathe into a device and those of those have been faulty
in the past because they don't measure the right part of your
breath. We just measure the last two
cc's of your breath, that's our patent.
And that's called fractionating breath at a very high-level
scientific level. So, the key thing is that we
just measure the right part, and then, But it's done multiple
times per day. So the key things that have
changed as we are very technically focused on just a
device. Hey, here's your measurement.
The things that changes the behavior modification, or the
knowledge of multiple measurements per day.
Is this ketosis dosing kind of phenomenon, that's pretty pretty
hot right now in the clinical side and we get to talk about
that in a second but it's knowing exactly what happens
throughout the day and getting feedback.
When that happens, be it running or be.
A it working out or be it you know nutritional interventions
that you're taking or fasting, fasting is probably the biggest
change that having all this fasting functionality and then
knowing what happens your body. So we just had kind of hardware
for that. Now it's how do you wrap around
these? These programs and that's what
people really wanted is in sight.
So hey, I'm doing a, I'm doing a fat, here's a good example right
here. I used to do a 72-hour fast once
a month, okay, for my own personal reasons and
anti-inflammatory and other things.
Now, I just, I need to do 24 hours above 15 on our device. 15
is is pretty moderate level of ketosis.
Mean, that's where some of the autophagy, Eric, you know,
cellular regeneration stuff kicks in major anti-inflammatory
benefits, you know, I lose weight if I want to but I don't
I try not to. So all these things is like it
leads to one thing as this dosing of ketosis, how deep and
how long not not where you are. Once a day, just Checking it out
because that's a false negative or false positives.
Like, where am I going? How does my body react?
That's it. So like, there's like when
people think of testing ketones, testing glucose testing,
anything where they've got, you know, with regard to ketones,
you get your three primary metrics.
You've got your acetone which is the breath.
You got your seat OS to take in the year and you get your
beta-hydroxybutyrate in the blood.
Most people tend to, you know, start with the urine strips
because they're cheap, they're easily accessible.
They get them at Walgreens CVS. Sediment after about a week or
two have been in ketosis your body becomes efficient at using
the ketones, your excreting less of him and you wind up not even
registering on those strips. So most people, then turn to the
blood metrics for the beta-hydroxybutyrate, what are
some key differences between what you're actually learning
from those blood Ketone readings versus what you're learning from
those breath Ketone measurements?
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
So, you know, scientifically the way to check Like
beta-hydroxybutyrate is through a venous draw a capillary draws,
good but that's not the gold standard just so you got to let
me preface that. Is that trials have shown it's
about it can be as much as 20 percent off and then you'll see
that like in the packaging and websites of those capillary
devices at home, they'll say up to 20% off.
Hmm. So you got to take it with a
grain of salt. It is a that is a storage key
tongue. Okay.
Meaning you're someone like you and I that are pretty darn cute.
Oh, I do Didn't, you know, people like Peter, Atiya and Dom
D'Agostino's. They're going to store and you
see them in their measurements with biosense and Beach be,
you're going to store less and less Beach be over time.
You just don't need to store as much to convert into what is
metabolized that is co acetate. So a COS it's was metabolized by
our mitochondria and then and then as it's expelled in the
body through breath, that is acetone.
So acetone into cos take go really hand-in-hand, super
tight. We're Beach.
Be is a storage that converts into something else, a different
type of Ketone and that's that's where things are.
So but ketones in general are signaling, they're signaling.
So it's not just hey, I don't have as much glucose and I'm
burning fat for my fuel. There's a signaling ability in
ketones in your blood and ultimately then in your breath
or & Co acetate, is also in your blood to.
That signaling is really really critical.
And we've seen kind of the Our of that.
And a lot of the clinical trials that were involved in, which may
not be a concern to Consumers, but it's really, really
interesting. And all of these chronic
diseases that we can talk about in the future and a lot of
people. So like I've done all kinds of
little experiments, you know, with my competition preps and
whatnot. I try to monitor my glucose
Ketone levels to add all the just just so I can kind of see
how things are correlated and tracking and a lot of people
will notice a like a pretty significant increase.
Kris in beta-hydroxybutyrate numbers with a large bolus in
dietary fat, especially if it's something like a like a name, CT
oil, or, you know, coconut oil or something like that.
That's going to have a hide lauric acid content, and likely
convert to MCT with something like that.
That's not really going to show so much in the breath acetone
reading, correct? It does, no, it does.
So we yeah. So even even Exotics ketones.
I mean, all this companies send those exactness ketones to us.
The difference is that whereas MCT or exogenous ketones Esters
are salts thing. You'll kind of get that big bump
within 30 minutes and then you're back out of your back, to
your normal range in about an hour, right?
And that's, that's, that's pretty similar in most of these
types of thing, they MCTS probably little slower, but with
biosense the device that's measuring.
What is actually, you know, member that conversion, even a
BHB Esther, for example, will have to convert Hurt to see do a
state and then it, then it comes out as acetone.
So that actual activity that, you know, the, the mitochondria
metabolizing that that takes a while longer.
And, and so you'll see that your Peak could be in two or three
hours, and it might last, you know, that wave entire wave last
five or six hours. That's what we see on, average
here of the Baseline of like, no Ketone levels.
And someone sends us these, you know, these exact words How do
we test that? Usually, it's kind of you get to
this low level of ketosis. You maintain that for a few
hours and then you start to fade out.
So it's much much much slower, which is probably a better
indicator, you know, probably better indicator of How It's
metabolized. Okay.
There's definitely a correlation is just kind of a delayed.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, and thing about ketones
is, you know, where is glucose goes up and down, boom, boom,
boom, all day. You know, if you do more than
probably five or six Ketone measurements in a day, You're
going to get the same kind of curve, it just doesn't change
that that fast and on the flip side, if you do one measurement
a day, you're going to probably get a false - false positive,
right? So your curve is you know, your
ideal, he's like three to five measurements day if you really
want to know biofeedback and close that feedback loop on what
you're doing, okay? If you just want a snapshot of,
you know, prick your finger or use bioscience get a snapshot of
last few hours. I don't know how you know how
important that would be to some What are what are some
actionable takeaways like if someone's using biosense meter
or any of these breathalyzer M, like, what are some action we
take those out? What are people going to get the
most benefit from using them for like if they've got a specific
goal in mind? What are what are they needed to
see on that monitor? And what are they going to need
to adjust with their day-to-day actions based off of what
they're seeing? Yeah, that's great.
So here we give you two examples.
One is just nutritional ketosis and one would be like in
fasting. So let's just say, aye, Show
like myself. I want to you know, I want to
lose a little bit. Wait for example and you know
have inflammatory benefits, all those things like that.
So typical ketosis benefits is I want to be able to start to
experiment and say, you know, in the morning, I wake up, this is
what I eat and I think I'm going on this path of being in this
state of burning fat as my fuel. I think I'm there, okay?
I don't want to know if I am because quite frankly, this is
limited in Valley. That's Like will illumine device
would do. That's a breath.
Device can tell you, it gives you a proxy of are you burning
fat? Are you burning fuel?
That doesn't really help anybody.
What you really want to know is, hey, I'm eating this food and
it's it's it's not impacting my Ketone levels or I met Dan
Aikido brick, for example, in which I love.
You know, these are the things that I do and this is what my
specific level of fat burn is or fat oxidation or ketosis, it's
all the same thing. So, you know exactly how to
tweak that behavior at a personalized level.
Okay. So it's not knowing, you know,
knowing if you're in ketosis is about as value because knowing
if you have a fever you kind of want to know what that is and
how that changes throughout the day, same thing, same thing.
With ketosis. You run you worked out.
What is it going to do? And it's going to be different
for everybody, you know, it is different for everybody.
We start to personalize that and give that feedback to say, hey,
by the way, you may not need to too fast for 72 hours to get the
same benefit. You may need only just do 40
where takes Roberts, 72 to get that same benefit of, like high
levels of ketosis for a certain amount of time.
So time, it's kind of like time in range a little bit with
glucose. Gotcha.
As you mentioned working out and
training. So when I've done, like I've
wanted to see James in the past. And what I noticed is all pretty
pronounced spike in blood sugar intra training and then
immediately Afterwards and a corresponding drop in blood
ketones. I'm assuming that's just from
mobilizing the the muscle glycogen.
Yeah. What's happening with the breath
ketones? During that time, I haven't
really tested around workouts as it.
Is it going to have a similar, you know, Bell Crown now because
keep in mind, what is that? What is that beach be doing?
The BHP is converting into something that can be used.
So you're actually when you work out you're probably going to see
a decrease in Ketone level. So be aware of that you know,
decreasing Ketone levels when in all All actuality you're
actually using more, you know, depending on where you are in
your levels of fat oxidation, I mean, you're going to be using
that. So A Better reflection of that
arguably is acetoacetate or acetone because we're not
worried about what's being converted into something that's
being used. We're talking about what's being
used. Okay, two very different things.
Conversion of storage Beach. Be into what's being used and
that's where biosense measures that.
So biosense measurements. Like you would think Ketone
levels will increase during a workout and beats be tends to
decrease in a workout. They will converge over time.
OKC, do acetate. Logically would probably
increase like acetone. So that's the key thing now
glucose, you know depending on what your your glucose levels
are obviously you know, that's a different story.
Yeah. That was my assumption that mean
that made sense in my mind but I haven't really tested around it
so that I'm glad you clarified. I haven't done much to Extended
fasting I've done, you know, like to Extended fast one last
was like five and a half days but I didn't have I don't think
I was using the bow since M then.
But I was getting some crazy extremes on the Ketone and
glucose from. Like I was getting, I don't
know, I think 33 blood glucose milligrams per deciliter and I
think my ketones were up around 7:00 or something like that.
So I'd be curious to see what the ace score was on the Bayou.
CM. Yeah, yes you would be.
And you know foremost, here's just an average the This
measurement is a level of is a derivative of parts per million
of acetone the Ketone. But it's goes it's a zero to 40.
So it's very, very very specific.
So you probably would top it and a five day you'd probably top it
out. Probably.
Okay, and it's usually about 10 on average, 10 to 12, capillary
measurement. So 1 millimolar is roughly the
equivalent, but you don't want to compare these their apples.
Don't wonder they're different Ketone bodies, right?
Yeah. So really we should be Be
measured against acetone tanks, or Venus draw BHP, and not
really a capillary measurement. So although it's a good proxy,
the biases M, it just measures. Hi.
Once you once you top it a, try like that.
Is that what the current display that shown?
Yeah. Yeah.
So same thing. Same display.
It's like when you get over 40 Aces, which is the equivalent of
you November 20 to 40. So I'd be the clone of a most
people of about 4. Mahler.
Okay, for millimolar. And and the example you just
gave you a really, really really high.
Yeah. Yeah I mean you're in a really
significant out of pejic state. I mean you're doing some
seriously serious cellular clean up there.
Yeah, I don't, I don't do that often.
Like I think one, I think one people won't want to stick.
I see a lot of people making these days is, they'll do
extended fasting far too frequently.
Also the context of just simply being in a caloric deficit, and
if you're doing Both, you know caloric restriction for fat loss
purposes and you're also doing extended fasting effect.
That's just too many stressors on the body.
But if I'm going to really, you know, significant caloric
Surplus, like I am right now. All oftentimes throw-in, you
know, an extended fast on a quarterly or you know, and yeah,
yeah, yeah. There you go clean down the
context of being in that Surplus.
Yeah, exactly exactly. So and then you know, the
fascinating thing is that it all depends on your Baseline to so
your success like do you need to do a five-day fast?
Well guess If you're coming from a carb restrictive, Baseline and
your and you go for a pretty significant run or bike ride, it
remove your blockage in stores. You're going to be really fast
to get to your target a level. So you, it really is like it's
all about your time in the range of repair.
And for me, I seek I want 24 hours above 15.
Yeah. And it used to be used to take
me 72 hours and it takes me about 50 to 55.
So I'm getting more efficient at doing the same job.
Job. But again, that's that feedback
loop is closed and I just didn't have that information before.
So I can do a lot of different things and that's the cool thing
about all, these clinical trials that were mullet is it, we
enable some of these researchers to do this.
You know, we have an infertility study we have in Europe, we
have, you know, obviously ongoing Alzheimer's studies
going on. We have three here at Washington
University in St. Louis ranging from type 1.
Diabetes to compare two diets to pancreatic cancer.
Goes on and on and on not, is that people want to close this
Loop and understand what is my death, and my width of this
magical medicine, called fat oxidation or ketosis, but it's
been the wild west thus far, and we're trying to put some
structure around it to help people make sense.
But from a clinical setting, have you noticed they're being a
significant difference between reaching those levels via
endogenous production of ketones versus you know, exile.
And supplementation. It's very rare that we have seen
that doesn't mean it's not happening because I know there
is some studies like in Canada, but we don't see a lot of
exemptions Ketone activity and clinical trials, okay?
And the reason being is that from a triggering mechanism, I
just don't think there's a lot of data out there.
Now, in the athletic performance side, you certainly there's some
pretty good data on exotic Mesquite owns, you know, for a
race or, you know, mental clarity For it, you know, if
they are even TBI. For example, TBI is a really
good example, of where exogenous ketones come in, you're going on
a jump out of a plane, get checked up on exogenous ketones,
very quickly for brain recovery and things like that.
So, so I think that there's a lot of value there, but not in
the typical chronic disease, management or prevention
reversal. More likely reversal side, not
not so much, doesn't mean that they're, it doesn't work.
There's just such little research on that.
Yeah, I've been kind of playing around with.
I mean, companies have been sent me all these exotic just ketones
lately. So I've just been, you know,
using them for various developments.
Yeah. But I like them for like I can
confidently say that I love the the Esters I think the Ketone IQ
H VM in brand, they sent me a bunch and I've been using them
before podcast and I feel like having, you know, 30, I think
it's in males is what it's do stat.
You know, about 15-20 minutes prior to a podcast, I just feel
noticeably sharper. Yeah and that makes sense.
So there is research for that those like what is that
immediate impact out there for something like that but it's not
going to do anything. I don't think of this isn't a
research on this about the impact of chronic disease, and
that's where we kind of play a little bit better.
So I think you're right about. This is like, and it could last
longer too. Like you have that and be cool
to test out with biosensors. See, how long does that last?
Your Baseline is pretty, low carb, is it is, I think Robert,
right? I mean, most of the time, your?
Yeah, I can't tell you. I mean, the last time I had a
actual carbohydrate-based, Was seven plus years ago?
Okay, there, yes. So you know you that's where
it's really interesting. I here in our office we studied
some of these exemptions ketones and there was that us of us that
have a high Baseline of ketosis. It doesn't have nearly as much
of an impact as those that have no Baseline, you know, which is
a different study, developing itself would be pretty
interesting to see the difference.
But, but yeah, yeah, that's quite I use it to.
I mean, that's the one time I use this for mental Clarity of,
like, If I have really really really important meetings and it
might be in the morning. I I'll I'll throw down an
exaggerated ski time for sure. I've heard of people having
success with it for sleep. Like they'll take it you know 30
minutes before going to sleep and I've I've kind of played
around that a little bit. But honestly right now I mean
with me having a brand-new baby, any any experiments I'm done
with sleep or totally skewed. So there's not really any point
in testing and I I didn't, I don't find it.
Yeah, I tried that on sleep too and I did not.
I don't see any value there, too.
But I can't, you know, you never know.
The problem with this whole Ketone ketosis Marketplace is
that it? We're talking about a biomarker.
Yeah, the biomarker changes throughout the day and no one's
really been wired into that as like I got it.
I gotta figure out my full day, you know, I mean a single
measurement. It is still 50% off and
time-weighted average. Why would anybody do a single
measurement? So the key thing is just like
glucose you can check your glucose and if it's not you're
fasting glucose. It's It's kind of well, what did
you eat the last 20 minutes? San Diego.
He'd been. So you want to kind of start to
to tell the story and his story is it goes up and down and how
deep am I in it? And and then make sure you have
the right device to support it. So if you're pricking your
finger just you know recommendation 3 times a day
yeah master key to Mojo would love to hear that for their
sales. But I mean this reality of it
you need to do it multiple times per day to really have that ya
know make sense man. How often are you typically
using the mouse? M.
Yeah, so I do I'm more of a I've gotten to the point where I used
it for a year. Really making sure that my
protocol would I do what I all these family obligations Bubba,
that I can, I'm kind of at the four to six level like really
close to N and then out kind of cycling in and out type of think
that's my and then once a month I I do a three-day ish fast but
I'm getting more efficient at it just based on numbers and then
and then I'll do like A 24-hour fast once a week.
So I use it for fasting primarily or if I'm trying like
new foods, you know, like new protocol type of thing, any
change, I'll monitor just to make sure that it's not having
an impact. I do a lot of sleep hacking
meaning like I'm monitoring sleep impact so there's a lot of
things that I'll test it with. But yeah.
So I would say use a probably on average three out of five days
in this initially every day three times a day or five times
a day somewhere in there and then fast fasting.
I will say this Listen, I use it probably every two hours.
Yeah and I would imagine there's a lot less flux with the
biosciences opposed to like a blood test with things like you
know the Don phenomenon waking up in the morning.
Yeah. Like it's just probably going to
be less, you know, variance in that.
I would imagine. Yeah I mean I don't know if
we've done add-on effect where you know your body's release
glucose and ketones could go down things like that.
You're just not, I don't think there's been extensive studies
on that with biosense but you're right.
It is That I think the variability were really
addresses, is in working out, you know, like having a storage
Ketone convert, that's a full step that we avoid.
You know, it's like Cito acetate is used and this is how comes
out of the body and its expelled that way.
So it's a little more real time. This is what's happening to you.
So, that's the key thing. I mean, you know, it's pretty
broad measurement, range, 0 to 40 and contender in ketosis is
just 5, right? 25.
So there's a lot of room to go north of there and you know
patients with epilepsy live, pretty high in that scale.
Hmm. Whereas people in low levels of
ketosis, still are getting your fat burn for weight loss.
And you know, some of these patients, gosh, man.
There they gamify it and are up there in the 20s 30s.
I think, I mean, I just tested about two hours before this: I
was at 23, okay? Wow.
And I feel like whenever I'm testing so much of it depends.
Ends on whether I'm in a caloric Surplus or deficit, like what
I'm going to cut for a prep, all of my numbers are just much much
higher at Baseline than when they're in when I'm in a surplus
like my ketones are higher. My glucose is lower like
everything's just more extreme when I met a cut but when you're
in a surplus least when I've found is that they're just a lot
more of a buffer there like you've got your taking in so
much of an excess that your body is is not really operating on
the extremes from a biofeedback standpoint.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's that's the key thing.
It's all about one thing. Connecting.
The dots. You do something, you feedback
and then you tweak it, right? Yeah.
That's that's what it's all. Chronic disease, prep for
competitions, you know, typical guy trying to lose a beer belly.
All of these come back to. I got to have feedback and what
the heck I'm doing. And I need to have that more
than once a day because my body changes more than once a day and
only. Yeah, that's the key thing.
Have you ever known of any He studies done with the bounces
Peter and maybe they're not black official studies but just
kind of like what you experienced in notice with what
people are using them that you know people with varying degrees
of feta Temptation. Like right now you know
metabolic flexibility is one of the hot topics and everybody's
trying to do not know bounce back and forth between ketogenic
diet and eating, you know, being able to justify their carbs on
the weekends and stuff and I'm just kind of curious this
connect the dots on that and see if that is causing any lack of
true fat. Patient basically.
Yeah, I know, we haven't, we haven't analysis in allies data
on that know. I don't know if you have enough
of that to know exactly what someone's behavior is until they
start logging and we will have all that capability of like
putting exactly what someone eats, we have logging in there
right now and in the app, because the app is what's
driving? The behavior modification,
right. Let's keep things like setting
your targets and then hitting those targets for weight loss or
you know all the programs we have our like within the app our
weight loss. Metabolic.
Flexibility, which is lower levels of ketones.
And then the higher ones are like anti-inflammatory which are
important for me. I had six knee surgeries all in,
you know, from soccer and things.
So you know, it's different for everybody.
But now I don't think we have that type of data, that's pretty
interesting. You know, on that fat adaptation
over time, I can just, you know, personal stories is that I'm
pretty darn quick to get back into a mode where ever.
I need to be. Yeah, you know, it's just been a
few years so It's really easy for me to kind of dictate my
where I want to be and it's being it's you know it's cool,
it's just becoming quicker and quicker and quicker.
So I kind of feel like I'm in full control of where I am in
fat oxidation and intense, man make sense.
Yeah, yeah. You may feel the Lumen earlier
and they sent me a lumen device and I've kind of played around
with it like three times. I think, can you kind of compare
and contrast? What the difference in
technology are the kind of what What one is showing over the
other? Yeah, I mean that's that's a,
that's not a medical device, that's a consumer device.
So, first big difference is that by a sense, device is a medical
device. So, we're monitored by the FDA,
and that's a, you know, just that's what you do with devices
that have that much clinical background to them.
So, number two, is that we measure fat burn a or fat
oxidation or ketosis as it changes that measures.
Respiratory quotient. But they which is a quotient of
oxygen intake to carbon dioxide, you know.
Exhale they don't the Lumen device to my knowledge does not
measure oxygen so it is a proxy so pretty good guess of where
you might be in a state of fat burner car burn, okay?
And that's it. So it gives you hey, you're
probably burning fat for fuel or probably burning carbs for a
fuel and they'll give you five or six.
I think five ranges on that. So they're not measuring oxygen.
So what is the the metric that they are measuring the measuring
carbon dioxide in your breath? So, it's a, it's a proxy for
respiratory quotient, which is what is measured in a metabolic
cart in a hospital. So so, so if you wanted to do it
the right way, you'd have to do in hospital, you couldn't do it.
The device where's acetone is a different gas.
We measure we measure exactly what your fat burn data is not.
Not what not the, if, but exactly where you are.
So, I think about this, like, again, the fever example, like
Lumen could say, hey, you have a fever and then we're thumb, you
know, biosensors a thermometer what your, what your actual
temperature is as it changes throughout the day.
So that's that's the difference. So Lumen would be limited as
soon as so in a measurement. Like it was we have 0 to 40
Lumen measurements are the 024 equivalent of our 02:40.
So They're just the very very bottom of that.
Like you're burning carbs which would be a zero on biosense, are
you burning fat? I'm not afraid of lumen.
I mean, I I tried it around like I said, a few times and it was
like, the day it was giving me was just really skewed.
Like I was saying that I was eating way too many carbs on my,
I haven't had carbs in seven years.
I don't you talking about? Yeah, give me data.
That was just totally wonky. So, like, I'd never really put
much stock into what it's telling me.
Yeah. So again, it doesn't measure
oxygen. So it's a, you know, it's a It's
a device that could maybe give some proxy to some people.
I'm not really sure who that would be.
But yeah, so we're really focused on providing the
behavior modification over long-term and giving biofeedback
actual real biofeedback, not a, not a proxy to something but
actual biofeedback based on what you do and then wrapping that up
in an app that says, hey, do this differently or do that.
So that must be, I mean like with the media that I'm using
from that OG M Pool from, you know, two and a half years ago.
I don't know of any of that. Functionality.
So I must be just on the way beginning beginning stage
because like the, I guess the app now like it's one thing I
did notice about the Lumen, is it had all kinds of actionable
data even though I didn't really agree with the actionable data,
I can see how that would be very, you know, complementary to
people that are wanting more directions.
That's kind of what y'all have done in rolled out with the new.
Yeah Direction. Yeah, yeah.
We're heading that direction to it would be a little bit more.
Physiologic you know, where his content content.
On some of these apps are consumer apps like, hey, eat
less this or do that? That's, that's kind of kind of
apply to everybody. Doesn't really matter what your
biomarkers, right? It's like, hey, do this and kind
of applies and I don't agree with a lot of it, because it's
not a, you know, they don't really seek ketosis in any of
their content in the Lumen device because they can't
measure it, right? So it'd be more of a just
simple, real simple basic stuff, but there's value in that and a
lot of just kind of someone that wants to understand metabolism
101. Are you know, first paragraph of
your lesson type of thing. So where we fit in as more of a
ultimately prescriptive model of, hey, this is where your
body's going as it changes throughout the day.
Let's look at what can be changed on the line and that's
the stuff that we'll have in the future.
We don't have that right now. That could be like hey try
eating one hour earlier, try doing this or that and and then
you should put this in but right now today is hey you're in a
program. Let's say for weight loss.
It's take 3 measurements today so it is very Specific Target
above, five, Aces to 5 to 10, okay?
For the next 28 days, document your weight in there and then
let's look at that correlation and then you your pinged, hey,
need to take a measurement now. So just a little bit more
prescriptive and and you don't have to sit still think, you
know, with metabolic wear with like Lumen, you have to sit
still for a while, you know, by essentially can do that on an
airplane or under way to work or whatever you want to do.
Yeah, totally. I mean it's exciting stuff man.
Like, I feel Pamela's. Mm.
As a whole is something that the general population is just
incredibly confused by. She's yeah.
And the consumer space. Yeah for sure.
Yeah. And there's like like you've got
you know a lot of the Bro dieters you know heralding you
know calories in calories out is the end-all be-all.
And there's a lot of people, the low-carb keto space that are in
total, disagreement with calories in calories out
because, you know, that's quote-unquote, not worked for
them. And I mean, there's some truth
to everything. I feel like that all matters,
hormones matter, Cal matter, energy balance matters, but when
you look at the energy balance, you know, that should ideally
take into account. You know, what your hormones are
doing, what your activity levels are doing, what your consumption
is. Like, like, that is kind of like
the all-inclusive, you know, what is your energy intake and
energy expenditure. And I feel like where things are
going with these, you know, breath devices.
Like, biosense, especially if you're following a ketogenic
diet. Low carb diet in your measuring
and you're getting more actionable data with this
quantifiable acetone measurement.
You can really start to harness whether or not You are in a
energy Surplus or energy deficit, based off of this
feedback. That's right.
And then tweak it tweak what you're doing and then see what
happens, you know, and it's, you know, you don't, I don't certain
kind of these. You're going to need biases for
a long, long, long, long time. But ultimately, we're here to
help educate the specific. So you can do whatever you want
to end up doing. And, you know, our job is to
wean you off of these with phenomenal, Behavior changes,
you know, or knowledge in the competitive space.
It's like knowledge of where you need to be and then just then
it's more to check in type of thing, but you got to have real
data. That's why I like a medical
device. I mean you just said it like
there's so much stuff out there about metabolism like CGM for
weight loss. May come on lipolysis or weight
loss is fat. Oxidation, is burning fat as
your fuel. That's not in glucose, glucose
limit your glucose to stop gaining weight but then there's
another side. So there's just Infamous
information everywhere. I need to this 18:6 diet, where
do whatever you want for, Showers and you're going to be
in phenomenal shape, you know, by not eating for 18 hours.
That's not going to really work that.
Well, yeah. So the good news is though, is
that, you know, the real companies are being separated
from the from the ones that are kind of pulling the wool over
our eyes but that'll take time. Yeah, hey, that's your job
people like, you gotta go to make sure you're sure, you're
sure and no I mean, I like I mean you and I talked way back
in the day and I like the direction the company's going
and there's a lot of there's a lot.
Of testing devices out there that I think you know, we're not
really worthwhile and when it comes to testing, you know,
blood test with the finger Pricks.
Like you know, if I'm doing a whole bunch of experiments I
like Gathering that data but at the end of day, at the end of
the day, everybody's goal in my opinion, should be to
effortlessly, maintain a very healthy composition while eating
incredibly intuitively and not tracking anything.
Now, if you're not there yet, you should dial in everything
and pull out all the stops and get there as efficiently as
possible. All, but, you know, for for the
people that are not there yet, which I would argue, is the
majority of the population. That's certainly the case when
you look at the obesity rate right now, yeah, yeah.
Being able to have actionable data like this and quantifiable
tools that you can use to get this feedback, I think is
incredibly valuable. Yeah, you know, it gets even
deeper tune that summon Le like you and I that we probably
pretty darn knowledgeable about this space just because of
experience and we be lots of Research papers and we, you
know, in our site where in the research but the bottom line is,
even if once we tweak that and we've got it, we're in a really
good place, our bodies do change and, you know, I'll give you
some personal examples, like, cortisol levels, really, really
screw with my metabolism big time.
You know, I run a company, you run a company, you know, like
it's the stress can be pretty high at times, they like, why am
I not sleeping so? Well, it's the cortisol levels
are higher, that's impacting. Your ability to get into these
higher levels of High impact, you know, Ketone ketosis levels,
you know, like, and I can feel that in the inflammation, like
wait a minute, something's different and and it usually is
related to things like stress, which means, then I got to tweak
it, you know. And I'll test myself and like
I'm sure enough you know I'm in much lower levels of fat
oxidation or ketosis and I thought, you know, and even
though I'm doing the same thing. So we're complex bird, we really
are, then we assume anything, you know, are you aware of any
devices in production? Or you know, in the R&D phase
that are going to be able to allow us to monitor.
Cortisol levels real time. No.
But I boy, I'd get it. Yeah, that would be like that.
Well reliably, I mean there's going to be things like its
saliva and this and that and sweat and stuff like that.
But I mean, reliable real information on this.
That would be fantastic. I feel like people need to be
able to see that and like a real time, you know, data feedback
wave. Oo well actually probably should
meditate RC probably turn the TV off.
I should probably relax but like people do a blood test you know
once every two years and it says their cortisol levels are
elevated and they just forget about they don't do anything
about it. Yeah, well here's I did mine.
It said they're fine. Okay.
When I knew that they weren't because waking up at 4:00 in the
morning, you know, every day thinking about cool things and,
you know, spent 35 bucks on a test of cortisol test.
And at the time I took the test was after I had Broke now up and
had a cup of coffee. I was chilled out.
I was sitting outside. I'm like I'm in a pretty
meditative State here in a good place.
I'm checking my cortisol levels. There's like I need and I just
spent 35 bucks to tell me something.
I already know that my cortisol levels are good.
Well, they weren't three hours ago when I was kind of half
sleeping half not when I can't even take it that.
So it's your right like these Spot Shot test and Kita.
Arguably ketones are like that. Like they're just not a great
reflection of reality of our body's changing and that's what
needs to be. Rest.
Yeah, and that has such a trickle-down effect on
everything. I took a testosterone test and I
took, I was stupid. When I took that took it after
having literally stayed awake for a week because it was like,
batshit crazy in February of this year.
There's a whole bunch of stuff going with the business, I
literally wouldn't sleeping and I was like stress levels to the
freaking Nth Degree and that took this this test and my
testosterone literally was cut in half and had I not taken a
test. I would have thought nothing of
it. It but then when I actually
recognized, you know, and put the pieces together.
I'm like wow. Okay I hadn't slept hardly at
all this past week, stress levels, through the roof.
Everything is just totally jacked up.
But, you know, I don't do tests like that very often.
So I think if there was a way to measure that more frequently
from like a stress standpoint, yeah, that would probably be.
I put more emphasis on that to anything.
Yeah, that's the same exact thing that same test that I took
actually was testosterone and, and cortisol levels and when it
In the my cortisol levels were normal, which is, there's no way
they were or they were at the very moment, but then
testosterone was low and I'm like, that's not true either.
So it's you got, it's about the story.
You know, it's not snapshot, it's the story and we gotta
figure out a way to do that. So hey, you find that product.
Let me know. I'm going to get it.
Yeah, let's this next thing on your list of things to, you
know, crap there in the warehouse, man.
Just get to worry about that, would you?
So, I wish is that easy? Yeah, I'm medical devices.
What a what? It's in the pipeline, man.
What are you excited about? As far as the Bayou since m, is
there something else totally unrelated to that?
That you get cooking? No, we do.
You know, it's pretty much on the Demeter is, I mean, is a
collection for an experience, right?
The devices device. It's like, what do you do if you
have the only clinical non-invasive way to track,
moving shifting ketones without pricking yourself mobilized.
A, you've got that data, what does that mean?
And it really means that you can build digital programs that are
super smart and I mean really smart, not Not all that
different than what all these companies are doing with CGM on
the other side of the metal box, which CGM?
Notice that? None of those measure ketosis or
fat oxidation. They can't, they don't have a
way to do that unless they work with us so what you just
manually enter your blood pressure or something like that.
So there's that's there's an exciting array of different
applications. So I would say that's the
primary thing. We've Yeah, so it's same
Hardware obviously much upgraded but the digital side of this and
behavior modifications, where we've invested really, really
heavily and you'll sink with heads up Health, right?
Like all that is synchronized. Yeah.
Heads up health and Doc sink and Elation and chronometer and carb
manager and Senza. And I'm sure hola life ohmic
with our fasting app so there's a lot that we we embed ourselves
into and then obviously, we have our own Melody of fasting and
things like zeros and other one, if you're using 20 app, can
integrate with that. And then we have our own
fasting, we clocks and all that. That have actual Ketone
measurements instead of just a guess.
Nice, nice. That's yeah, so a lots in the
hopper and you said the new devices, they're faster to I
guess, like when I click the button, like I've got to wait,
like 20 seconds in order for me to blow that's fast, that's
still pretty fast, because it has to heat up the sensor to a
certain level. Level and then it's a smart
sensor so it knows that it's kind of killing off any type of
biologic or anything that's on the sensor so it will heat it up
really really high like 300 degrees this and burn that off.
Now if you have if it's sitting around hand sanitizer, which
yours clearly was not, it could take a while, you know, like you
got a burn that off it so alcohols not a friend of
sensors, so that's it. So you know, first time you use
it a it takes probably 23 minutes or if you have any While
and then each time you use it might take 30 seconds so you
stored. Your is really really well you
started somewhere and then I my desk.
Yeah. Okay there you go.
And then the the app obviously just download the app.
My BIOS are biosense from readout health and then it
connects everything together. So it sinks and then and here's
what you've been missing. You got firmware, that's
probably two years old, the app uploads, new firmware all the
time. So your device is up.
Upgraded all the time but you've got one that's so old that you
got a sample one. Will get you a new one.
Then we'll shoot man. Just let me know.
I'll buy it. I like I like the device.
I put my money behind it for sure.
Okay, cool, man. Well awesome man.
I'm are you going any conferences this year?
Yeah, we just did metabolic Health Summit, which is great.
Kito Khan first time we're going to that next month, you're going
to be there. I'll be there.
All right we'll we'll pass pass each other there and love your A
Bricks, by the way, I freaking love.
Absolutely. What's your favorite flavor?
The chocolate. The chocolate one, but it's a
little problematic in that I snack.
I mean I really like this so I've got to make sure I'm
really, really I'm disciplined. Yeah a lot of like a lot of
people love they'll come up into pieces then just kind of snack
on my just do a whole brick at a time so I can't really do.
I've been doing like to add a here lately but I don't really
do more than one so it's much easier to kind of moderate.
At that cuz I'm not just snack it out there.
Yeah, I do about half. Okay.
And I'll do a half over the course of an hour just kind of
snack not, but it, that is to me is like perfect and it keeps my
kiss hard to find fat, you know? I mean, yeah, it really, really,
really is hard to find fat as much when you're in it.
When you're in it to win it like you and I are like, you think
about it? Like I'm always on a search for
fat, you know. Like I used to be in a search
for low fat, which is stupid. But it did was, you know, so
that that would be the one that I typically have Quality Fence.
I'm there. The out there but it's kind of
hard to like have that convenience fact.
I mean like like beef suet for instance is great but most
people don't have just pocketfuls of beef suet hanging
out, you know? No.
No, no. You're totally right.
So yeah I totally agree. Awesome, man, awesome.
What's always, pleasure? Chatting with you, brother.
I'm excited to see it. Key dokkan.
I'm excited to get this new meter and give it a whirl.
And I'm going to be doing a ton of experimentation for my next
prep in a few months. Well, depending on when I start
my prayer, but I'm going to be documenting all of this.
And I'll use the Bisons M like throughout the entire entirety
of it. So I'm curious to gather that
data and kind of see what it's showing.
All right, cool, cool. In any your listeners, by the
way they they do the discount. These set up a couple years ago.
So is Quito Savage 20, if they want to get 20 bucks off method,
even know how to code. So awesome.
There you go. Kito Savage, 20, awesome
brother. Will definitely keep in touch
me. If there's ever anything I can
do for you, just let me know. All right, cool?
See you man. All right, take care.