1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,440 Well, hello ladies and gents, Robert Sykes, Keto savage.com 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,000 And today we've got special guest Drew Decker on the line. 3 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,080 He is a graduate research assistant at The Ohio State 4 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,040 University. He's actually studying under 5 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:13,760 Volek's lab right now and we dive into some scientific 6 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,440 studies that are taking place around the low carb ketogenic 7 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,520 diet and his application in performance athletes. 8 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,920 One of which was interestingly enough, a study done on the Keto 9 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,280 brick and it's comparison with the Cliff Barn in a time to 10 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,040 exhaustion trial. So very interesting there. 11 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,760 But we we dive into some other studies he's he's been working 12 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:37,560 on, one of which is in brain health, emotional health, using 13 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,840 the ketogenic that to hedge against depression and things of 14 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,160 that nature, which is something I feel like we should all take 15 00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:46,640 an interest in because there's a rampant increase in depressed 16 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:47,960 individuals at this point in time. 17 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:50,560 So very interesting stuff. Really enjoy the conversation. 18 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,440 I get a lot of respect for doing what he's doing, the work he is 19 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,200 publishing and putting out there to the world. 20 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:57,920 I've got no doubt that he will take something from this so that 21 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,880 further delay. Sit back, relax and do the 22 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:12,920 podcast with Drew Decker and we are Live. 23 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,520 Drew, how are you, brother? Doing great, how you doing 24 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,400 today? I'm doing wonderful well, man. 25 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,560 So just to give the listeners some context here, you and I 26 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,400 were both at the Metabolic Health Summit, and we did not 27 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:25,800 know we're at the Metabolic Health Summit together until you 28 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,760 and I are both sitting in the waiting area at the airport and 29 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:31,040 then boarding the plane at the same time. 30 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,120 And I overheard you talking about a study that you had 31 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,720 recently done at the university. And I don't remember exactly 32 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:39,040 what was going. I think you were talking like a 33 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:40,600 former Green Beret or something like that. 34 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:43,920 And my keto bricks were just done. 35 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,200 They were just in a study. So I wonder if there was an 36 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,320 overlap there. And then we started chatting. 37 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,880 Turns out you were one of the students that led that that 38 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:53,000 study. So pretty interesting. 39 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,640 Pretty small world. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 40 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:56,360 Yeah. It was crazy. 41 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,680 I just happened to be talking to this guy. 42 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,520 He was a former Green Beret and he was talking about rock weight 43 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,360 and he was talking about, you know, just the the trials that 44 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,600 come along with that. And so I ended up as a perfect 45 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,759 introduction to this this study that we ran with with your 46 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:15,080 product on Akita Brick so. I love it, man, I love it. 47 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,080 So talk to me a little bit about a little back story on you. 48 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,240 So you're at The Ohio State University at the moment and how 49 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:21,400 long have you been there? What are you studying 50 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,960 specifically? Yeah, so I'm actually a former 51 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,320 military. I was a airborne infantry for 52 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,840 about 6 years. Unfortunately, I got hurt, so I 53 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:32,800 kind of had to get out of that early. 54 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,080 But right now I'm a grad student at The Ohio State University. 55 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,360 My mentor is Doctor Jeff Volk, currently studying ketogenic 56 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,240 diets on performance, cognitive performance, physical 57 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,480 performance and also looking at mental health with the emerging 58 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,080 field of metabolic psychiatry. Well, Volok is a pretty heavy 59 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,360 hitter in the keto space. He is pretty well well known in 60 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,440 that regard. Absolutely, yeah. 61 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,080 Very fortunate to have him as my mentor. 62 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,200 Just kind of fell into it and not looking back. 63 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,840 Were you intrigued by the ketogenic diets prior to getting 64 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:11,800 involved with him, or did all that kind of come just as a 65 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,680 result of studying under him? Yeah, so that's actually a good 66 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,800 question. I started looking at the 67 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,800 ketogenic diet right after I got out of the military. 68 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,160 I ended up sustaining a massive traumatic brain injury. 69 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,800 And so I had chronic migraines that kind of followed 70 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,720 afterwards. And so I started looking at 71 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,360 possible nutrition strategies. All the drugs that they're, you 72 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,680 know, handing me just weren't working out. 73 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,720 I mean, I was taking, I was maxing out as much as they were 74 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,680 telling me to take a week. And then I was taking over the 75 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,800 counter medications on top of that and still getting one or 76 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,960 two migraines a week. And so I started, I was like, 77 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:51,240 hey, there's got to be a better way. 78 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,920 So I started looking at nutritional kind of 79 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:56,600 interventions that might be able to help. 80 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,520 And that's kind of when I fell upon the ketogenic diet, started 81 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,560 following that and migraines went down to once or twice a 82 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,800 month with no medication. So that definitely got me on 83 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,640 this path. And then I end up hearing Doctor 84 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,120 Volek speak at one of my undergrad classes and 85 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,800 immediately just reached out, said, hey, you know, if there's 86 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,560 anything going on in the lab that I could help out with, make 87 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,600 me a part of it. You know, if I have to sweep the 88 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,000 floor, then I'll sweep the floor. 89 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,200 But you know, I just want to be a part of this, this research 90 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,520 because I think it's extremely beneficial. 91 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,440 Well, I've had several guests on the podcast that have been prior 92 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,920 military and they've suffered from PTSD or some type of 93 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,960 traumatic brain injury and they have turned to the Kijic diet as 94 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,960 a pathway or therapy for hedging against those those symptoms. 95 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,560 And it seems to have a pretty profound effect, man. 96 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,280 Like a lot of people will take on exogenous ketone 97 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:54,880 supplementation in that context, they notice a benefit there. 98 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,400 Obviously going about that through dietary means seems to 99 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,560 be efficacious, but did you notice a pretty profound 100 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,040 improvement soon after doc the the diet or like what? 101 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,440 What were you noticing there? So for me, I think that first 102 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,600 week I probably didn't go about it the best way, You know, I 103 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,240 didn't, I wasn't thinking about electrolytes. 104 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,280 I wasn't thinking about, you know, ways that I could really 105 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,040 speed up the process for myself. And so that first week I 106 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:28,440 definitely noticed, you know, some some untoward side effects 107 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,680 right from just from, you know, losing electrolytes so fast. 108 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:37,360 But after that first week, I noticed once I was in ketosis, 109 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,520 this just felt like the migraines were just I didn't 110 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,760 have any that first week. And then that continued on. 111 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,960 I just kept on chugging a lot on that on the diet and was 112 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,240 wondering, you know, hey, they're gonna come by sometime. 113 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,400 There's no way this is magic. But it probably wasn't about 114 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,880 until two months after starting the diet that I even had that 115 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,240 first migraine. And it wasn't debilitating 116 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,440 either. So, you know, it's a pretty a 117 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,200 pretty sudden effect for me. Nice. 118 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,600 And have you pretty much adhered to that since then or have you 119 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,840 tried to incorporate different foods to see what kind of what 120 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:13,640 your threshold is? No, I I'm a firm believer. 121 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:15,520 I've drank the kool-aid, as they say. 122 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,480 So this is, this is my life. I'm not really looking back at 123 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:20,880 this point. I like it, man. 124 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,000 Yeah, I feel like, you know, that's kind of where I've 125 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:24,280 planted my flag in the ground too. 126 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:26,520 And I get a lot of pushback from people saying that it's not 127 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,080 designed to be, you know, followed indefinitely, like you 128 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:31,720 need to go in and out of ketosis. 129 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,920 But while I see that has, you know, some validity from like an 130 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,440 evolutionary standpoint, that's probably like we probably did 131 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:41,160 not sustain long term ketogenic states indefinitely as a 132 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:42,800 species, you know, going through time. 133 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,440 But I don't think there's any adverse response that comes from 134 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,920 going that way now, especially like when you see how adaptable 135 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,000 the body is. It's not like we lose the 136 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,120 ability to process carbs and sugar if we were to reintroduce 137 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,360 them at some point. Right, Yeah. 138 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,840 I mean, as far I haven't seen anything that has convinced me 139 00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:04,320 otherwise as to why I should get off or why I should introduce 140 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,240 periods where I'm maybe a little bit higher carbohydrate. 141 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,760 So you know, until I see something or I I start noticing 142 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,040 an effect, I I really don't have any reason to look the other 143 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:16,600 way. Yeah, for sure. 144 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,120 So I want to kind of dive into some of the research studies. 145 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,560 So Volek he he's probably hallmarkly known for his faster 146 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:24,640 study. I think that was one of the 147 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,120 first performance based studies that I was ever exposed to when 148 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,240 I started diving into ketogen diet from like an athletic 149 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,880 standpoint. So his lab seems to always kind 150 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,400 of cater towards that athletic focused individual. 151 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,320 So as it pertains to, you know, the the ketobrick study, I mean, 152 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,520 I'm kind of selfishly wanting to learn more about that. 153 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,600 I had Doctor Prenz on for a little bit and we talked at, at, 154 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,160 you know, to some extent about that study. 155 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,280 And if I remember correctly, it wasn't drastically statistically 156 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,200 significant, but it was all done in students that were not really 157 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,880 fat adapted to begin with. So I wasn't surprised 158 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,280 necessarily the keto, the ketobrick didn't significantly 159 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,520 outperform the the Cliff bar in a population that was all non 160 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,560 fat adapted to begin with. Yeah, right. 161 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,520 So there wasn't a whole lot of difference between the the Cliff 162 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,960 Bar and the the Keto Brick as far as performance, like you 163 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:19,360 said, none of the none of the participants were fat adapted. 164 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,840 But I mean there's there's also a lot of power in that they're 165 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,040 not fat adapted, but they're also having very similar results 166 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,680 as far as time to exhaustion is concerned, which was the the 167 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,559 primary outcome of the study. So you know, kind of flips the 168 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,280 script on its head when you're talking about how you need to 169 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:41,039 fuel for these kind of events. You know, if you're whether you 170 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:44,080 need to eat all carbs like what's traditionally prescribed, 171 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:46,640 or if you can get away with something that's a little bit 172 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,200 more fat based, you know, And then additionally, if you're 173 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:56,240 looking at a, a military side of things, every oz counts, you 174 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,360 know. And so when, when you're packing 175 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,760 your rock and you have to pack, you know what, for this study, 176 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,720 you would have to have packed 4 bars for the same amount of 177 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,000 calories as you get from 1 keto brick and have a couple more 178 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,920 ounces in your pack. Or you could just pack one keto 179 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,880 brick, have the same amount of calories, and still not notice 180 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:20,720 any performance detriments. Yeah, Yeah, I think the the 181 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,600 calorie to weight ratio is a pretty significant compelling 182 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,480 factor for sure. So can you kind of breakdown 183 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:27,960 exactly how the study was design? 184 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,440 There's a washout period, it was randomized, but I don't know all 185 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:32,200 the details. So how? 186 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,320 How was that designed? Yeah. 187 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,880 So there there was 29 male participants. 188 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,840 They're all with between 20 and 30. 189 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,680 And basically what they do is they go to a familiarization 190 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:46,800 test where what they would go through a protocol where they 191 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:52,280 did a time to exhaustion protocol where it was a 14% 192 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,720 incline on a treadmill. They had a pack on their back 193 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,960 that weighed 30% of their body weight and they just went until 194 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,120 they couldn't go anymore. This was just the 195 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,080 familiarization before they had any kind of intervention. 196 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:10,040 They also had VO2 Max testing done on them, anthropometric, so 197 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,720 body weight, height, I think they did some circumferences and 198 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:20,960 then and then they would go and track their their current 199 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:26,760 exercise, they'd track their diet and then they'd be asked to 200 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,480 keep those the same throughout the intervention. 201 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,840 Their first actual test day, they would come in and they'd 202 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,600 redo that time to exhaustion test where they would be 203 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:40,360 actually going through the intervention. 204 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,600 So they'd be randomly assigned to either taking the keto brick 205 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,320 or to eating the Cliff bars. They'd do their time to 206 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:52,160 exhaustion and then after that they would have, you know, blood 207 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:58,080 and whatnot tested for up to three hours post post exercise. 208 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,040 They'd then have a seven day washout period where they kept 209 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,800 their exercise and their diet the same as it was before they 210 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,400 entered in. And then they would, they would 211 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,880 switch what group they were they were in, and then they'd redo 212 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,400 the intervention again. Gotcha. 213 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,640 And how long between the consumption of the prescribed 214 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,800 bar and the the timed exhaustion test? 215 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:22,880 Like how long, How much time was elapsed between those two? 216 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:24,920 Yeah. So they they would come in 217 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,480 fasted and then they'd take the bar 3 hours before exercise. 218 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,080 Gotcha, and it was 4 Cliff bars to the one keto brick to 219 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,240 basically make things as isocaloric as possible. 220 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,760 Yep, that is correct that we also chose flavors that were 221 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,960 similar. So we use like the the crunchy 222 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,280 peanut butter Cliff Bar and that was compared to the OR the 223 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,280 crunchy peanut butter keto bar, excuse me. 224 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:52,040 And that would be compared to the, you know, the Cliff bar 225 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,360 'cause that was the most, it matched the most as far as 226 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,000 flavor is concerned. And then the bars were also cut 227 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,360 into like bite sized pieces to try and make them look as 228 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,440 similar as possible. Gotcha. 229 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,320 OK, interesting. Interesting. 230 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,640 And what was some of the the feedback from the participants? 231 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,560 I mean, as far as their perceptual measures were 232 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:17,360 concerned, thirst, hunger, everything like that, those, 233 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:22,600 those stayed the same. I'm not Privy to which which 234 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,880 flavors they preferred, unfortunately, but as far as 235 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,760 those, the perception of thirst, hunger, how tired they felt, 236 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:34,840 those did not differ between each group. 237 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,440 Nice. Yeah, I was honestly surprised 238 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,000 that there was not a drop in performance with the the Keto 239 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,080 Brick group having been tested in a group that was not fat 240 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,080 adapted. I would, I would assume that 241 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,680 there would have been. So the fact that it was on par 242 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,600 with that of people, you know, consuming carbohydrates when 243 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,480 they were not in a fat adapted, you know, demographic, I think 244 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,760 that's super compelling. Right. 245 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,520 Oh yeah, 100%. And just by means of eating more 246 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:04,160 fat before going into the before into the going into the actual 247 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,680 exercise itself, you actually saw more fat oxidation in that 248 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:10,760 group than you did in the carb heavy group. 249 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,560 Yeah, I need to read this thing again, but it was like 2 1/2 X 250 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:16,680 times the fat oxidation or something like that if I 251 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:17,360 remember. Correctly. 252 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,120 Yeah. So pretty, pretty cool there. 253 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,160 And you got some people in the space that are like, yeah, but 254 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,400 if you're primarily eating fat, you're going to be, you know, 2 255 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,400 1/2 times more like the store fat as well. 256 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:28,920 So you've got the naysayers out there. 257 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,440 But I feel like in in the acute setting that we're talking about 258 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,280 here, if you're able to 2X more than two X your fat oxidation 259 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,000 and the categories are equated for then then there's a 260 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,200 significant benefit there. Right. 261 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,920 Yeah, absolutely. So what's, what's the next study 262 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,400 in the pipeline, man? What are you all working on? 263 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,720 Now, so the we actually have quite a few interesting studies 264 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,040 coming up right now. We have a ADOD grant that Volt 265 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,560 just got awarded. And so there's several studies 266 00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:59,400 that are involved with that we have. 267 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,600 So once it's one grant, but we have 4 studies coming out of it, 268 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,560 each with multiple aims. So we have, we're testing 269 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:11,800 everything from, you know, just the kinetics of different ketone 270 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,880 supplements in military age males. 271 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:20,840 We're testing how a single dose in men and women of a, of a 272 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,560 specific ketone supplement would really affect them. 273 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,160 Then we're also testing how ketone esters and ketogenic 274 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,880 diets affect sleep deprivation as well, like cognitive 275 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:37,360 performance is concerned. We're looking at the effect of 276 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,560 ketone esters and ketone diets on heart failure patients, as 277 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,720 well as doing a study on ketogenic diets and polycystic 278 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,440 kidney disease. Nice. 279 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,040 You got all kinds of things in the pipeline. 280 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,840 Yeah, absolutely. And this all gets to fit under 281 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,840 just one just one grant so. That's always nice. 282 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,000 As far as the the esters and the exogenous ketones 283 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,120 supplementation goes, are you at liberty to say brand specific or 284 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,160 is is it like using the actual esters or using like the 13 285 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,000 butane dial? So there's, there's several, 286 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,800 there's several different supplements that are going to be 287 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,720 used throughout, throughout several of the, the different 288 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,760 aims of the of the studies. But I, I don't know how much I 289 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,680 can really get into on that at this point other than, you know, 290 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,920 saying that we are, we do have esters and we have other 291 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:29,400 supplements that are being used as well. 292 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,280 What what is your personal take on the the use of exogenous 293 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,760 ketones for performance specifically whether it be from 294 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,160 the salts, the legitimate esters, or the 13 butane dials 295 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,320 that are converted into BHP in the in the the liver. 296 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,680 Do you have a preference for one over the other from a 297 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:52,040 performance standpoint? I mean, As for the kinetic 298 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,040 standpoint, I, I do like the, the ketone esters just for, you 299 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,640 know, how long they're able to spike those ketones and just how 300 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:05,280 long you stay in that elevated state for performance. 301 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,840 I think I tend to think more tactically with this more with 302 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:14,720 just cognitive ability. And so because of that, if 303 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,480 somebody's fat adapted and decides to take an Ester or, you 304 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,400 know, or if they're, for example, a soldier and they're 305 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:26,720 going on a 36 hour patrol or something like that, then, you 306 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,760 know, I, I see efficacy in taking the, the, the S here just 307 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,280 to try and preserve some of that cognitive function, especially 308 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:40,160 in those very high sympathetic states in those times when 309 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,000 they're really just, you know, sucking. 310 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,720 Yeah, no, for sure there's there's been a lot of debate 311 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,000 online right now as to whether or not the the one three butane 312 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,920 diode kind of performs similar to an alcohol when consumed. 313 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,440 I mean it's not an ethanol based alcohol, but it's got, you know, 314 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,080 similar effects to alcohol and some people have noted, you 315 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,920 know, drowsiness and things of that nature, whereas it's 316 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,800 oftentimes being promoted as a performance enhancer. 317 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:12,280 So I don't know if that is just specific to the individual or or 318 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,760 what, but it's it's raised some eyebrows for sure. 319 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,040 Yeah, I, I mean, there's even, you know, people that even talk 320 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,319 about it as a way to get off of alcohol. 321 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,000 You know, just since they had, they think that there's similar 322 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,079 results to that. I don't know if that's placebo 323 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:29,240 or if, you know, that's something that they're truly 324 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,160 noticing. You know, that's something that 325 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:34,840 maybe we'll be able to figure out in a little bit. 326 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,480 Yeah, it's, it is interesting for sure. 327 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,200 I've I've tried all different kinds. 328 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,120 I mean I've got companies that send me this stuff and I'll try 329 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:44,600 them and I've had pretty significant doses of the 13 330 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:46,600 butane down. I've not personally noticed any 331 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,760 alcohol like effects but it's just me. 332 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,800 No, yeah, that's that's kind of been my experience with it as 333 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,120 well. So whenever I hear the, you 334 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:01,600 know, your body's gonna process it the same as alcohol, so you 335 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:02,760 might feel some of the same effects. 336 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,520 I've never really personally noticed that. 337 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:09,400 Yeah, but me either. So how does one like yourself go 338 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,680 about wading through all the minutiae online when it comes to 339 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,680 different studies, especially around the topics of nutrition? 340 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,480 Maybe because like I, I am not a a research scientist. 341 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,440 I am not a medical student. I am an athlete. 342 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,000 I'm a, I'm, I'm just a guy online, I guess. 343 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,960 But I know I can sympathize with people that are wading through 344 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,360 all this information and it's like they don't even know where 345 00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:35,840 to turn because there's so much information and often times it 346 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,560 conflicts with one another. You've got people that are in 347 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,520 the evidence based camps that just throw their their heads 348 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,280 back to anything that's anecdotal at all. 349 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,400 You get people that just simply point to their own personal 350 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,480 findings and experiences and those that are close to which is 351 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,680 all anecdotal. So how do you kind of go about 352 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,400 assimilating information and applying it into your own 353 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,400 personal life? Yeah, so that's a, that's a good 354 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,120 question. A lot of times really you need 355 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:03,920 to look for citations. You know, you can have a 356 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,040 supplement company say whatever they want to say. 357 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,040 They're not really regulated by FDA, not well at least. 358 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,560 So a lot of times when I'm reading the claims and what's 359 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,120 being marketed to me, I'm, I'm going straight to the citations 360 00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:20,440 at that point. So that way I can read through 361 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,680 the studies themselves and I can make a decision based off of 362 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,200 what's actually been published. If there's a baseless claim or 363 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,160 you, you see something that, you know, there's just not a whole 364 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,000 lot of proof behind it. I started to become very weary 365 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,400 of, of that company, but that, that'd be kind of my best, my, 366 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,000 my best advice that I have for that is just, instead of taking 367 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,040 them at their word, you know, go to the citations, explore it 368 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,720 yourself, try to find your own. It is a unfortunately, it's a 369 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,680 consumer based market. And so a lot of the 370 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,600 responsibility is on the consumer when it comes to 371 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,120 figuring out if this is reputable or not. 372 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,840 Yeah, so and I have to just start throwing my citation that 373 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:06,920 said that you ought to go on the keto bricks on all my my keto 374 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,680 brick marketing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, 375 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,800 absolutely. Hey, you know, personally, I'm a 376 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,680 believer. I, we actually had several keto 377 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,720 bricks here in the, the office when we were running through 378 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,800 this writing and publishing the, that study. 379 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,160 And we had a whole thing where we were doing taste testing and 380 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,840 figuring out which we like most. And, you know, I'm really 381 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,560 excited. I see that you have the What is 382 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,640 that banana muffin coming up soon? 383 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,240 Yeah, we launched that this past Sunday. 384 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,880 I think I've, I sent y'all some of the brownie batter too. 385 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,160 Did y'all try that? Yeah, I tried the brownie 386 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:39,240 batter. That's pretty good. 387 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,440 I like that one a lot. I'm I'm not gonna lie though I 388 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,120 think chocolate malt is still the the favorite. 389 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:46,720 Yeah, that's one of my go to's as well. 390 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:47,880 Man, you can't go wrong with that one. 391 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:49,720 Not at all. Wrong with that one. 392 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,480 Where do you go personally? Like if you're online and you're 393 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,400 trying to figure out a good library of, you know, legitimate 394 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,720 articles and source of information, where do you 395 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,280 typically go for that? Like pub Med or something 396 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,720 similar. Yeah, so pub Med is usually go 397 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,840 to Google Scholar. Those are usually where I'm 398 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,280 where I'm scrolling through. But yeah, you you nailed it 399 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,320 right on the head with pub Med. And a lot of them are behind the 400 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:13,720 paywall unfortunately though, right? 401 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,840 Yes, yeah. So I have the, I'm fortunate 402 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,960 enough to be with an institution that has a lot of access to, to 403 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:25,240 articles that maybe some others might not, but you can still 404 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,560 find a lot of good information if you scroll, You know, if you, 405 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,160 you scroll enough, you're going to be able to find a lot of free 406 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,360 articles that should be able to hit just about anything that 407 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:35,800 you're looking for. Yeah. 408 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,760 Oh, for sure. It seems like from what I've 409 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,920 just learned in talking to you, you know, as long as we have 410 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,840 here, a lot of the the studies that you are doing is based kind 411 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,040 of like on military application. Is there a specific reason 412 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,560 there? Is it catering specifically to 413 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,960 those in the services? Well, yeah, so the grant itself 414 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,040 came from DoD. So a lot of a lot of what we're 415 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,480 trying to propose for that, you know, had to be military 416 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,560 tactical related. You know, so even for our sleep 417 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,920 study, for example, we're measuring cognitive performance 418 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,600 with a a shooting simulator. So it's like a, a virtual 419 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:18,840 reality, you know, range that you can go to and then we're 420 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,600 able to test. It's basically we have a, a 421 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,880 testing protocol where it's like you're doing a Stroop test, but 422 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,440 instead you're shooting targets. We have, we can test accuracy, 423 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:37,680 we can test, you know, your, your decision making ability. 424 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,720 And so there's a lot of metrics on that. 425 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:44,360 But yeah, since because it's ADOD grant, we do cater very 426 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:46,560 much to military and tactical populations. 427 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,440 Well, I'm very hopeful that y'all can change what's on the 428 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,520 the menu in those Mr. ES for sure. 429 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,440 Oh yeah, yeah, they're very carb heavy, high in sugar and low in 430 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,880 protein. That's that is definitely true 431 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:00,880 of them. I mean are. 432 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,080 Those based off of anything scientific at all, or those 433 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,400 strictly formulated based off of, you know, bottom line cost 434 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,640 equations. You know, that's a good 435 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,360 question. I'm not sure if I can actually 436 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:18,240 fully answer that. But my opinion is that, you 437 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,520 know, it's, it's the military. So whenever you hear the word or 438 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,960 the phrase military grade, you should always just assume it's 439 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,840 coming from the lowest bidder. And so, you know, my assumption 440 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,440 is carbs are cheaper than protein and they have an excuse 441 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,000 to use it 'cause, you know, unfortunately a lot of the 442 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,880 studies that have been out there are very carb centric, right? 443 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,880 So if I, if I look at recommendations for an athlete 444 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,480 on what they should be eating, they're going to be putting at 445 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,320 putting me at astronomically high levels of carbohydrates and 446 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,720 minimal levels of fat, right? They'll be putting me at 20% fat 447 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,800 and I'll be trying to bump my carbs as high as possible. 448 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,200 And so I think that's the military's kind of stuck with 449 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:10,160 that model because they can and because it's cheaper. 450 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,520 That's that is going to be my assumption. 451 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,440 Yeah, which is so unfortunate. I mean, one of the, I had 452 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,000 Phillip on the other day, Phillip Meese from Carnivore 453 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,520 Bar, he was former military as well. 454 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,960 And his whole motivation for building that company, Carnivore 455 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,400 Bar, was because, you know, he was stuck out there overseas And 456 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,640 I mean, he was just living off of MRE's and had like jerky 457 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,880 shipped in and it wasn't able to, you know, maintain shelf 458 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,440 stability. It's like this just not the kind 459 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,360 of nutrition that I want to be consuming if I'm trying to 460 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:41,760 perform at an elite level, which is what you are ideally doing if 461 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,920 you're on the front line. And it's sad that the the 462 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,240 military is just being provided Mr. ES as their fundamental 463 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,640 source of nutrition from a cost standpoint when that's probably 464 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,400 the least beneficial from a performance standpoint. 465 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,040 Yeah, exactly. I mean, you'll, you'll see it 466 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,480 all across you. You also see it. 467 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,000 I mean, it's not even just Mres themselves. 468 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,400 You see it at the mess halls or a, a chow. 469 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,000 You'll have, they have like a color coding system that tells 470 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,320 you what you should eat more of, what you should eat less of. 471 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,240 And you know, I've seen syrup get the, the green, the green 472 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,120 light saying you should eat as much of this as you can. 473 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:21,720 And I've seen things like eggs get the red saying, hey, limit 474 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,120 this as much as possible, you know, and I, I don't know if 475 00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:28,760 that that that's going into the same model as the Mr. ES, that 476 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,160 hey, what's cheaper for them to mass produce and get in large 477 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,960 quantities or, you know, if there really is just a, a 478 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,720 horrible gross misunderstanding of nutrition that exists within 479 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,520 the military. Maybe it's a little bit of both. 480 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,160 Yeah. I would have to imagine there's 481 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,360 probably some just, you know, bureaucratical, you know, red 482 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:48,680 tape that you have to jump through. 483 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,480 And there's just such a lag time in when the research comes out 484 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,160 versus when it's actually implemented. 485 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,040 And they're probably still stuck on that, you know, food pyramid 486 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,360 that should have been flipped upside down years ago. 487 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,200 Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's kind of hard to break 488 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,240 something if you've been doing it for this long. 489 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,160 Yeah, totally, totally. What about muscle glycogen, man, 490 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,320 that that's a topic of of interest that I've taken pretty 491 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,320 interesting of late. And there seems to be a lot of 492 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,640 studies coming out regarding muscle glycos like the fastest 493 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,760 rate that Volk did way back when he was talking about the rate of 494 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,680 glycogen replenishment and founded at the individuals that 495 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,360 were endurance athletes. And if you all got anything in 496 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:31,040 the works as far as glycogen replenishment rates within 497 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,080 resistance trained individuals more so than the endurance 498 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:40,280 sports. So as far as looking at glycogen 499 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,120 replenishment, we haven't really been looking at that recently, 500 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:46,000 not since I've been in the lab at least. 501 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,640 But that is, that is an area interested for, for me as well. 502 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:52,640 Just looking at how that would affect. 503 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,400 I don't really, I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't react 504 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,040 the same as what we saw in those endurance athletes. 505 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:06,000 I think it might be a more of a product of time on the ketogenic 506 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,520 diet itself 'cause when you, you know, first get under the 507 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,720 ketogenic diet, you don't see that same replenishment rate and 508 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,920 you know, production of baseline levels of glycogen that you do 509 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,200 see in a carb heavy athlete for example. 510 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:27,840 So I think that, you know, as far as as far as baseline levels 511 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,760 of glycogen is concerned and as far as replenishment, I think 512 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,720 that might be more of a product of time on the diet and 513 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:41,160 adaptation more than more so than you know, modality of 514 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,480 exercise. And how long would you 515 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:44,720 recommend? Just my thoughts on it. 516 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,400 Yeah, no, I totally agree. How long would you recommend 517 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,680 someone fall on a ketogenic diet be consistent with it in order 518 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,240 to have a full grasp as to what they would be able to replenish 519 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,880 muscle glycogen in? You know, so this kind of this 520 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,800 question was kind of brought up at MHS and I'm just going to 521 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,400 default to the answer on that was given there, which is 522 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,760 somewhere between, you know, three or somewhere between 4 523 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,040 weeks and 18 months. There's going to there's that, 524 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,480 that difference. So that the athletes that were 525 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,520 in the faster trials, I mean they were they're on it for on 526 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:22,080 following a ketogenic diet for 12/2 plus 1212 months to, you 527 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,560 know, two years somewhere in there. 528 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,840 So I'm not really sure as to when you fully adapt and when 529 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,480 you're able to fully, you know, restore all your glycogen 530 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,120 levels. I just know that it will happen 531 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,680 eventually if you stick with the diet long enough. 532 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:39,640 Yeah, I get that question a lot too, man. 533 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,760 Especially like in the context of bodybuilding, because, you 534 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,080 know, obviously if you're trying to have fullness in your 535 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,320 muscles, you need to have fully tapped up muscle glycogen. 536 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,560 And if you are just now adopting a ketogenic diet prior to 537 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,840 stepping on stage, it's probably not a good idea. 538 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,080 But for people that are wanting to optimize with a, you know, 539 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,040 ketogenic diet going into the bodybuilding realm, like you 540 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,800 really need to be on the diet for a significant period of time 541 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,440 before you can hope to have those levels, you know, capped 542 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,680 out as they were when you were consuming predominantly 543 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,200 carbohydrates. And a lot of people, I think 544 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,240 have a hard time adhering to something for that length of 545 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,960 time. And it's unfortunate because I 546 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,760 feel like, like my, my personal view just. 547 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,480 And what I've noticed and working with clients over the 548 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,800 years is that if you, you know, kind of go back and forth and 549 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,720 you're not really fully committed to it, you kind of 550 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,840 just stay in nutritional purgatory, so to speak. 551 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,600 Like you don't really at that point get the benefit of, you 552 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,960 know, the circulating ketones or build up that metabolic pathway. 553 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,800 But you also don't really tap into the benefits of 554 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,240 carbohydrates if you're trying to go that approach because 555 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,120 you're oftentimes not consuming ample carbohydrates in the 556 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,440 context of an athlete. So you just spend all this time 557 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:49,000 in in limbo and your performance suffers, your satiety suffers, 558 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,040 your muscle fullness and recovery suffers. 559 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,400 Like everything suffers because you just are trying to, you 560 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,360 know, do both things at once, but you wind up kind of half 561 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,000 assing both entirely. Right. 562 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,720 Yeah, No, exactly. Yeah. 563 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,040 I mean, that is, that is kind of the, it seems to be the 564 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,440 unfortunate truth that if this is the route that you're you're 565 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,800 choosing, you know, you might need to take some time and not, 566 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,720 you know, I, I, I'm not going to tell anybody not to compete. 567 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,640 I'm not going to tell anybody not to perform whenever they 568 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,880 want. But you might, you know, just 569 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,000 set in your mind like this might take a little bit longer than, 570 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,600 you know, a couple months before I'm actually competing and, and 571 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,440 looking how I want to compete and look. 572 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,840 Yeah. But yeah, you know, I don't 573 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,640 know, is there what, what strategies would do you follow 574 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,360 when you're going for when you're prepping? 575 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,280 If I, if I'm correct, you, you just competed. 576 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,560 Is that correct? Yeah, I competed all throughout 577 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,160 the last quarter of 2023. So I, my first competition I 578 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,680 think was first weekend in September and then it went 579 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,640 through mid November basically. So I'm in reverse. 580 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,120 I mean, I just finished my reverse that I'm back into a 581 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,480 building phase at this point, but I competed pretty much all 582 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,720 that last quarter of last year. And my, my approach is, you 583 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,840 know, I'm, I'm strict keto 100% of the time. 584 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,840 Like I haven't had a carbohydrate based meal in over 585 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,160 8, probably close to nine years now. 586 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:12,000 And my view has always been that the longer I stay in a fat 587 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,600 adapted ketogenic state, the better my body becomes 588 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,480 efficiently using fat as a primary fuel substrate for, you 589 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,120 know, glycogen replenishment, cognitive function for 590 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,760 everything. And there was a period, I guess 591 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,720 probably about two years now where the whole concept of 592 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,000 metabolic flexibility really gained popularity. 593 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,920 And everybody was jumping ship because they were under the 594 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,640 assumption that you had to swap back and forth in order to 595 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,120 maintain any true semblance of health. 596 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,720 And I just have never really bought into that, that approach. 597 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,640 I feel like, you know, like you're, like I said earlier, 598 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,640 your body doesn't lose its ability to metabolize carbs and 599 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,760 glucose. You just don't need to to do 600 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,000 that. If you get if you have the 601 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,280 option, you might as well operate and optimize for the, 602 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,520 you know, more improved substrate for fuel, which in my 603 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,280 opinion would be the the fat substrate. 604 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,680 Yeah, I'm, I'm definitely on the the same page. 605 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,440 That's interesting. Yeah. 606 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,160 You know, I've, I've heard stories of people trying to do, 607 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,760 you know, carbs up until the last couple weeks to, you know, 608 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,080 and then they'll try to shed some pounds, then, you know, 609 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,440 introduce carbs right before a show Again, You know, I, I hear 610 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,480 this strategy being used for powerlifting as well in 611 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,280 different weight based sports. And I don't know if I completely 612 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,080 buy into that as much as I would just, you know, stay the course. 613 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,000 And you know, you might need to modulate how many calories 614 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,480 you're eating leading up into a vent. 615 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:44,200 But I, I, I, I definitely don't, I don't find myself buying into 616 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,680 really switching between a ketogenic diet and a 617 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,600 carbohydrate diet throughout the season. 618 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,040 Yeah, I agree. And there's been, there's been 619 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,200 quite a bit of talk about a dual fuel approach in regards to 620 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,640 exogenous ketones. And I think there could be some 621 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,840 efficacy there. Like if you are following a 622 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,000 carbohydrate diet and then you are consuming exogenous ketones 623 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,200 like they can cross the blood brain barrier, they can be 624 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,400 metabolized as a fuel even if you're not fat adapted. 625 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,360 So I think there is some truth to that, but my approach there 626 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,600 is if I'm going to try and optimize for, you know, ketone 627 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,320 production and assimilation, that I might as well be 628 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,320 producing them endogenously as well. 629 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,520 So my ability to uptake those ketones if they are exogenous 630 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,160 would be improved if my body's own inherent endogenous 631 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:30,600 production is already upregulated. 632 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,240 Right. Yeah, 100%. 633 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,320 I mean, if you're, if you're relying on exogenous ketones, 634 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,680 you know, for getting into ketosis, you know, there, there, 635 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,400 there could be an effect where you're actually blunting 636 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,080 endogenous production at that point. 637 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,760 So you're already introducing these exogenous ketones. 638 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,560 So, you know, your, your body at that point might be, hey, you 639 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,360 know, why do I need to keep on producing these metabolites if, 640 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:57,920 if I already have access to them? 641 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,240 How, how big an effect that is? I'm, I'm not really sure, but 642 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,040 yeah, I agree with you. I think going, trying to stay 643 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,840 endogenous is probably the best way to go. 644 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,040 I think for, you know, going back to soldiers it, it might 645 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,080 make sense. You know, they don't really have 646 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,000 the option to to change their Mr. ES. 647 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,639 So then at that point it might make sense, you know, come up a 648 00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:23,280 low energy state or time when they need higher cognitive 649 00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:26,960 function, you know, take an exogenous ketone at that point. 650 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,239 That would that would make sense. 651 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,400 Yeah, no, totally. Have there been any studies done 652 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,480 on what the like effect is with endogenous production in the 653 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,960 context of exogenous ketone supplementation for some of 654 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,520 that's not yet fat adapted? Like does that have they been? 655 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,080 Have they studied it to see if there's actually down regulation 656 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,679 of your own production? You know, honestly, I haven't 657 00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:50,600 really looked too too deep into this. 658 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,400 This is things that I've kind of been talking about with some of 659 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,280 the, you know, grad students here in the office that are, 660 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,160 have been in for a little bit longer than I have. 661 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,280 So that's one of those things. That's a very good question. 662 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,000 It's something that I'm gonna have to look into a little bit 663 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,760 more extensively before I can really give you a, an answer or 664 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,800 give you a citations to actually go to for yourself. 665 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,360 Yeah, but I'd, I'd love to get into that. 666 00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:19,080 Read up on that and then I'll I can e-mail you some some 667 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,480 information. Yeah, totally. 668 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,920 If if somebody wanted to adhere to a ketogenic diets in the 669 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,680 context of being, you know, overseas in the military, like 670 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,800 would they even like, is that even physically viable? 671 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,480 Like if they just decided to only eat the fats and proteins 672 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:34,800 in an MRE and what's at the mess hall? 673 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,640 Like would they be able to consume ample calories to 674 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,400 function or is that totally impossible? 675 00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:44,880 So that that's a, that's a hard question to answer. 676 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,480 If they were at the mess hall, if they're in Garrison, then 677 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,280 yes, you'd be able to do that. The the issue is that when 678 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,080 you're out in the field, especially if you're out in the 679 00:35:54,080 --> 00:36:00,120 field for months on end, you're only getting carb based Mres. 680 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,360 And there's really just not enough calories for what you're 681 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:04,760 doing. If you're just going to pick out 682 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,160 the protein. And most of the time the protein 683 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:12,960 is mixed with something with rice or with noodles or have 684 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,800 like a carb based gravy involved with it. 685 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:22,040 So I think that that'd be a, a hard ask at this point, you 686 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,880 know, but it, I, I like these studies that we're doing and I 687 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,120 like the, the grant that we have because hopefully it will start 688 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:32,200 to kind of shift the mind in the military, the mindset in the 689 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,640 military of these carb based meals, maybe provide a different 690 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,160 option. I mean, right now there's 691 00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:41,400 vegetarian and vegan Mres. So I I don't see why there 692 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,200 couldn't be a, you know, like a keto option. 693 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,520 Yeah, for sure. I mean, like I said, I'm, I'm 694 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,840 not military, I'm not former military, but I've got all my 695 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,280 friends, pretty much all my friends are they all went that 696 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,680 route. But like I, I can, I can assume 697 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,560 it's similar to how I would feel and perform if I'm out, you 698 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,440 know, out West hunting for, you know, week on end. 699 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,240 I'm carrying a heavy pack and I'm at altitude and I'm, I'm 700 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:07,520 trying to be conservative with the weight that I'm carrying, 701 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,360 but have ample calories on hand. And in that context, like when I 702 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,240 go out West to go elk hunting, like I cannot imagine doing what 703 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,240 I'd do and not being fatted happened. 704 00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:20,040 Like if I was consuming, you know, carbohydrate based diet 705 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,160 and I was having to eat, you know, four or five meals a day 706 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,640 to feel satiated and have energy. 707 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:27,760 Like the amount of food I'd have to bring back there with me 708 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,560 would just be that. That would be a limiting factor 709 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,080 for sure. I, I wouldn't feel good. 710 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,480 Like that would just be like a non sensible option. 711 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,240 Yeah, I mean, that's, you're exactly right. 712 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,600 Wouldn't you know, if you're not fat adapted, you're doing these 713 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,200 things. I mean, guys are stocking their 714 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,960 pockets with the candies and with gummy bears and all sorts 715 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,280 of snacks if they know they have something heavy coming up. 716 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,800 Because they are going to have to keep on snacking this entire 717 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,200 way through just to have the energy to to complete the 36 718 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,920 Mile Rock or something like that. 719 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,800 So, yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. 720 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,800 You know, if you're not fat adapted, you're putting a lot 721 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,160 more weight on your back, you're putting a lot of weight in your 722 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,520 in your pockets, just wherever you can fit it in order just to 723 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:10,800 sustain you through the movement. 724 00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:13,080 Yeah. And like cognitively, I would 725 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,960 not perform at a high level if that was where I was at too. 726 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,040 And if I'm, if I'm in the context of a battle and I'm 727 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,240 frontline like I would want to make sure that I've got my wits 728 00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:23,120 about me and. Exactly. 729 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,480 And then you mix in, you know, sleep deprivation and everything 730 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,800 else on top of that. Yeah, there's, there's a lot of 731 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,880 advantage to being fat adapted and following a, a adhering to 732 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,680 a, a ketogenic diet, you know, that could translate pretty well 733 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,880 into the battlefield that unfortunately just isn't being 734 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,400 explored as much as it should be. 735 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,400 Yeah. Well, hopefully, hopefully the 736 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,600 research you are doing definitely starts pushing the 737 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,280 needle in that direction because I think, you know, we obviously 738 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,480 want the best for our shoulders. And I feel like the the best 739 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,760 would most definitely be, you know, an enlightened individual 740 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,600 that knows the benefits of a fat adaptive approach and can 741 00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:03,440 leverage that in the field. Yeah, absolutely. 742 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,880 Absolutely. What about you personally, man, 743 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,680 What's what's, what's in the pipeline for you that you're 744 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,080 excited about as it pertains to, you know, studies or just your 745 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,160 own personal nutrition and fitness endeavors? 746 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,760 Yeah, so I'm actually the lead on a study here at the lab on 747 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,800 ketogenic diets and major depression. 748 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,680 So I've been really focusing in on, you know, how can we use the 749 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,800 diet to improve people's lives that are are suffering from 750 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,120 mental health issues. Nice, nice. 751 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:33,560 And how? How is that study being 752 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,320 conducted? Yeah. 753 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,480 So it's a pilot study right now. It's actually being funded by 754 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:44,080 the Bazooki Foundation. And we have college aged 755 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,560 individuals that have been that have major depression and we're 756 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,560 just putting them on a ketogenic diet at this point. 757 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,320 We're testing scores of depression, we're testing 758 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,400 different blood parameters. This is a it's a 12 week 759 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,240 intervention. Again, it is a pilot study. 760 00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:03,200 So any, any results that we get have to be speculative at this 761 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:10,200 point. But this is the the first study 762 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,720 that's being done on major depressive ketogenic diet and 763 00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:16,720 the college age population. Nice, but have you have you read 764 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:18,800 Chris Palmer's Brain Energy book? 765 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,360 I haven't read through the whole book, but I, I don't, I do know 766 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,640 Chris Palmer. Yeah, I've, I've had the 767 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,760 pleasure of having him on the podcast and I've talked with him 768 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,120 at the various conferences and I love the work he's doing, man, 769 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,960 because he is bringing light to a, a situation that certainly 770 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,760 needs to be that needs to have more awareness around it. 771 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,600 I mean, we all know somebody or have struggle with ourselves, 772 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,200 some form of, you know, mental depressive episode. 773 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,480 And it's like you, you, you bring that to a doctor and they 774 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,920 automatically turn to, you know, the SSRIs, the antidepressants, 775 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,360 they Jack things up even more. So there, there, there's zero 776 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,640 talk of nutrition in those offices. 777 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,840 And I feel like so much of that can be averted if you just 778 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,040 simply get the nutrition dialed in. 779 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,080 Because what we're learning now about how the, the interplay 780 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,960 between what you're consuming, the, you know, gut health, you 781 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:10,480 know, serotonin levels, dopamine levels like that, that all needs 782 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,720 to be frontline nutritionally based as opposed to, you know, 783 00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:17,080 drug, drug induced. Right, exactly. 784 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,120 And you know, so I'm not a psychologist, so I'm not a 785 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,560 psychiatrist, so I'm going to put that one out there first. 786 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,840 But it seems a lot of times it almost feels like guess and 787 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,000 check with a lot of medications, you know, as far as what 788 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,600 mechanism is causing it. So we, we might be, we'll see 789 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:38,480 improvements with medication, but as far as, you know, really 790 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,720 figuring out what the mechanism underpinning its improvement is 791 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,360 concerned, we're not very, you know, we're not sure at this 792 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,440 point. And so I, you know, finding a 793 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,480 holistic approach that can potentially get rid of some of 794 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,840 these adverse effects that you see with medication seems 795 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,720 imperative to me. Yeah, 100%, man. 796 00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:01,720 And I'm not a psychiatrist either, but I've had several 797 00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:06,080 members of my family that are very close to me, you know, have 798 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,440 have struggled with this. And like they've both been put 799 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,160 on antidepressant medications and SSRIs. 800 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,600 And it's like, like you talk to the doctor and and the only 801 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,680 thing they can tell you is, oh, they got a chemical imbalance in 802 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,080 the brain. Like that's what their default 803 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,080 answer is. And it's like how the world can 804 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,640 we expect to improve that chemical imbalance, if that is 805 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,680 even what it is, if we don't have a just a fundamental 806 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,320 foundation, nutritionally speaking, like anything else is 807 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,520 a Washington if we don't have that going for us. 808 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:37,400 Right. Yeah, exactly. 809 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,120 Is this, is this actually, does this actually fit into the 810 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,560 monoamine theory where we're looking at serotonin and 811 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,680 dopamine and norepinephrine? Or does this, is this actually a 812 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,680 mitochondrial dysfunction issue? You know where is this all 813 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,960 starting from? What was your motivation for for 814 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,120 diving into that that area of study man? 815 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,280 Yeah, so this actually, it's pretty personal for me, but 816 00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:03,400 yeah, so I got, I got hurt in the military, ended up having, I 817 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,840 was airborne infantry, ended up having a pretty bad jump, 818 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:11,320 resulted in a massive TBI. It also resulted in early 819 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,680 termination of my service and I was definitely not ready to get 820 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,280 out. And I'd also noticed like a a 821 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,080 personality shift after I hit my head, just kind of having 822 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,360 problems at home, had issues just really, I mean, just 823 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,160 talking to people at that point. And I was suffering from 824 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:31,720 depression pretty bad at the time. 825 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,720 And so I had to go to the psychologist. 826 00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:39,560 I had to go to the psychiatrist, which is also, it was taboo, at 827 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,040 least when I was in to go and see the psychiatrist. 828 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,200 But, you know, it became necessary at that point. 829 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,800 And so, yeah, it was the first thing they did for me. 830 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,080 They they talked to me for maybe, you know, 30 minutes. 831 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,560 The next thing you know, I had a whole smorgasbord of medications 832 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:57,320 that I was supposed to take every day. 833 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,560 You know, I was walking around sounding like a walking pharmacy 834 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,240 with how much was shaking in my pockets. 835 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,480 And nothing, really, nothing really got me there. 836 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,000 I just started noticing, you know, adverse effects. 837 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,160 I started gaining weight, started, you know, feeling weak. 838 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,880 My lifts weren't the same. And so I just, I was like, there 839 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,920 had to be a better way. So, you know, I know I went 840 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,880 through that once we started looking at this and once, you 841 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,240 know, Doctor Bullock graciously came up to me and said, hey, we, 842 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,600 we have this on our table, you know, do you want to take this 843 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,000 and run with it? Immediately jumped on it. 844 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,280 Very cool, man. No, I love it. 845 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:36,960 I love it. The fact that you, you, you've 846 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,920 got a personal connection that's going to make your zeal for the 847 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,480 research all the more paramount. And I feel like anything that is 848 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:49,760 concerning brain health and you know, emotional well-being like 849 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,120 that is the concept that we, we are in desperate need of right 850 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:53,240 now. Like you look at the pression 851 00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:56,200 rates, especially in college age demographics, I mean, it is 852 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,360 staggering, man. Like I don't even, I've had 853 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,640 several guests on the podcast and we've tried to peel the 854 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,440 curtain back as to what the driver is there, what's the 855 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,480 primary catalyst? And I don't know, man. 856 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,760 I don't know if it's because of social media. 857 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,520 I don't know if it's because of people's lack of purpose. 858 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,000 I don't know if it's because of the comparison. 859 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,000 I don't know what is the driver. But it's obvious that it's 860 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,000 certainly trending in the wrong direction. 861 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,880 And I mean, I think a lot of it is certainly nutritional and 862 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,520 just simply being deficient in basic fundamental minerals, 863 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,200 micronutrients, macronutrients and just proper like having a 864 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,680 proper healthy foundation is key. 865 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,120 And I think we're so far from that as a society right now that 866 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,400 we can, you know, drive more awareness there and at least 867 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,520 people get on, get people on some degree of level footing. 868 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,720 So I think it's awesome that you're doing that as it pertains 869 00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:45,000 to a ketogenic approach, man. Yeah, Thank you. 870 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,560 You know, I think this could potentially change the way that 871 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,360 we treat mental health going forward. 872 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,120 So I'm very excited to be a part of this research and I'm very 873 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,960 excited for the opportunity that I've been given for it. 874 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,480 So hopefully, you know, good things come out of this. 875 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,320 Hopefully this can, you know, move forward and this research 876 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,720 continues and makes differences in people's lives. 877 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,000 I certainly hope so man. Certainly hope so. 878 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,960 And with the pilot study, like how, how long, like what is the 879 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:16,200 lead time on those typically? So it's a, it's a 12 week study 880 00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:20,680 and we're doing so the, as far as nutrition education is 881 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:26,480 concerned, we'll do like a consult where we meet with every 882 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,120 individual for about an hour and a half and we just talk through, 883 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,640 you know, different pillars of a ketogenic diet and see how they 884 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,720 feel with it. We'll provide some food at the 885 00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:41,200 beginning. We, you know, give extensive 886 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:46,400 education throughout and then, you know, we, we let them run 887 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,840 with it for the last six weeks, the first six weeks. 888 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,840 We're just really trying to go hand in hand with them as much 889 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:53,400 as possible in those last six weeks. 890 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,280 We're really trying to see if they can just, you know, take 891 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,240 what we, what they've learned and just run with it. 892 00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:03,240 And, you know, with the, with the college age population, a 893 00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:06,800 lot, you know, everybody here is involved with school. 894 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,920 They have classes, they have exams, you know, stressors just 895 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:17,960 from being young and young and dumb, You know, it's, it's, it's 896 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,520 a challenge, but I think that we've been, we've been really 897 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,840 good about it at this so far. So I'm I'm very happy with with 898 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,080 what we've been doing so far. That's awesome, man. 899 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,960 That's awesome. And when would the results be 900 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,800 available to to view? So right now still, the study 901 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:40,280 itself is still ongoing. So hopefully soon, hopefully by 902 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,760 the end of summer. Very cool, very cool. 903 00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:44,920 I love it, man. Well, where, where do people go 904 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,920 that to find out more about you, to dive into the studies, to 905 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,600 read the publications, just to to dive deeper. 906 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,040 To dive a little bit deeper, yeah, so right now I'm a little 907 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:56,520 bit of a ghost. I don't really have much of A 908 00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:01,320 social media presence. If you go to low carb OSU, low 909 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,880 carb OSU for Ohio State University, you can see a lot 910 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,400 more about what the BOLAC lab as a whole is doing. 911 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:12,000 You can read up on, you know, the, the members of the team. 912 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,960 We have a great team here. It's extremely collaborative. 913 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,840 So that's that's where I direct you to go for now. 914 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,480 Awesome well, I will definitely get to that may be easy to be 915 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,720 able to find you. Very cool man. 916 00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:24,720 I'm excited about all things on the on the pipeline here all 917 00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:27,080 things on the horizon. I really appreciate the work 918 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:28,600 that you're doing. I appreciate you taking the time 919 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,680 to discuss it with me and if there's everything I can do to 920 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,400 help in any way, man, you just let me know. 921 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,440 I'm more than happy to keep sending bricks to the labs that 922 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,080 we can fund the the studies at least via a nutritional 923 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:40,760 approach. I can. 924 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,400 I can contribute in that way for sure because I want to. 925 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:45,760 I want to help move the needle in the right direction as well. 926 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,480 I feel like our our missions are aligned in that. 927 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,240 All right. I appreciate you, Rob. 928 00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:53,160 I'm sure that we'll we'll all appreciate some more keto bricks 929 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,160 as well. My pleasure, man, My pleasure. 930 00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:56,800 Until next time, Drew. Take care brother all. 931 00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:58,200 Right. Take care, Rob.