Hello, ladies and gents Roberts. Alex Quito Savage that
commented, they have got special guest Marjorie Lucas on the line
and she is one of my clients we've been working together for
years. I've helped to go through
multiple competition preps all with a ketogenic approach and
she is amazing. She's looked better every single
time. She's at Grace, the stage, and
I've referenced her on several podcasts.
So I figured I'd just have her on the podcast because how we've
gone about her reverse diet, and how strategic and conservative,
and slow, and controlled. We've done, In this reverse that
has been really eye-opening to me to see what's possible from a
compositional standpoint from a metabolic standpoint, from a
hormonal standpoint with a slow and controlled reverse diet.
So I wanted to bring her on the show, talk about her experience,
with the prep, with the reverse with all that stuff in my
mindset standpoint from a physical standpoint, all that
good stuff, all things, competition prep and reverse
diet-related. So without further Ado, sit
back, relax and enjoy the podcast with my good friend and
client Marjorie. And we are live.
Marjorie, how are you? I'm doing well, Robert.
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to chat with
you. So you are a client of mine.
We've been working together for, how long have you been working
together? You're probably one of my
longest standing clients for sure.
Since 2019 since I started my bodybuilding Journey.
Yeah, it's been a long time for sure.
And you visits been cool to work, Them because I've seen all
this change unfold over that entire period of time.
And I've referenced you on multiple podcasts as of late
because of your reverse diets and kind of how we've gone about
that. Reverse that, which I think a
lot of people would benefit from hearing, but before we dive into
the reverse that can you give us a little back story as to, what
got you interested in competing in the first place?
And kind of just bring us up to date.
As far as, you know, when you started competing what the
motivation was behind competing and how that's impacting.
Your life directly. Yes, definitely, Robert.
So what kind of got me into competing in bodybuilding shows?
I used to be a long distance Runner.
And when, when I was like, 26, Yours old hats when I had to
stop running altogether only because my knees would lock up.
So that's not certainly good. And honestly just me training
and doing running. I wasn't able to train as hard
as I wanted to and that really just discouraged me to continue
on in the sport of long-distance running.
So I really had to go into a different sport because I love
Fitness and I love fitness and health in general so I want that
to be part of my life and so So in honestly bodybuilding and
competing and shows that with something in the back of my mind
for a while, I knew that my nutrition was going to be
involved, so I even did my own like How It Fits your Macros.
And I did, I've done all those things and I've even even done
some tracking when I was about, maybe like 26, 27 years old and
I just continued that on. And and then even when I worked
as a A fitness kickboxing instructor.
I met more like-minded people and fitness and be start talking
about you know, bodybuilding shows.
And that's how you know I looked up things on YouTube of how
late, you know, bodybuilders how they weigh their food, how they
track their macros and how they do training and how they kind of
balance that with their life and and honestly in 2019 that's when
I just decided to just to go into that space and just say,
okay I'm going to do it. I'm going to Pete.
Yeah, no, totally. I think a lot of people when
people get into running, I feel like, especially I feel like
with females, a lot of females run to lose weight, to lean out
to have this trim, toned physique.
And I feel like there's a lot of misunderstanding around women in
weightlifting, and they just afraid afraid of getting jacked
in yoked and putting on too much muscle looking like Arnold
Schwarzenegger. After a few weeks of lifting.
Was that ever a concern in the back of your mind?
Or did you not? I think that way at all
honestly, getting getting bulky from lifting weights, that was
never and as part of my mindset and for me as a mindset as a
runner like Iran, just so I can place like top five in my age
and late age category. Like, I remember the first 10k
race Iran. I think I've got, I want first
place in my age group, which I was like, I didn't think I was
capable of. So, That's when I just started
you like competitive running. Like yeah, like I trained for
for 10K races. I think that was like, my
favorite distance. But yeah, and then getting into
more, like the fitness kickboxing.
I just kind of like that work out because I was so used to
doing like, hit training and it was a great Outlet, especially
to, you know, get out anger because I worked a job that I
didn't really like, so going to kick boxing after work, really
helped. And then when I started to go,
go into weightlifting. It's funny cuz I All this cardio
and kickboxing and stuff, but I've honestly like wanted to
have like a muscular body and by that I know Bret Contreras the
he has like a booty training program I guess.
And I would look at his clients and I'm like I wish I can look
like that but these girls like they lift heavy and that's
something I didn't like know how to do or that was something that
That I didn't know how the training program would go.
Like, yes. Like I think there was a time
where I kind of stopped doing some cardio and I went to the
gym, but I was in the gym for two hours and do you like every
machine? Because I thought, that's what I
had to do one, really? Yeah, when really it was and
when really, I really need to have a training program though
is really targeted to glutes and shoulders.
Yeah, totally. I feel like, there's so much
misinformation around. You know what's needed to build
up like the booty. Specifically, you know, I feel
like there's just Everybody wants that that curve that
curvature and you're not likely going to get it doing hours on
end on the elliptical or the treadmill.
But you put yourself on the squat rack.
And that's where the magic happens.
Mhm, yes. So what exactly happened with
the running? So you said your knees were
locking up. Like what?
What kind of injuries specifically where you're
dealing with their? Well, because I'm not a huge fan
of going to the doctor. So I, oh no, it's just me.
Like, with my with my training as far as running goes.
I just noticed. Like no matter and also no
matter how much rest I took from running like my knees would just
lock up and my training sessions were not even that effective.
Like I couldn't do the Sprints like I wanted to, I couldn't do
the long-distance running like I had wanted to and like my
running pace just started to slow down and for me that was
like very discouraging because like I'm used to like running a
mile like in seven minutes and so and so The I time like
decrease and only because of this wear and tear of my knees,
like it was just very discouraging.
So I just knew from there like I had to do like a different form
of exercise and that's where I kind of found like Fitness
kickboxing because you're still getting that cardio.
And it was like and it was just like a different style workout
that I really loved. Yeah.
Any type of MMA or you know kicking sport or striking
support, like it's amazing how intensive that really is that
we've been doing MMA with our employees one.
As a week here at the compound and it's crazy.
Like I, oh, I'll be going at it for, like, 30 seconds on the mat
with somebody. Yeah, what?
Like, I can do a leg workout, that takes two hours and I feel
like I'm more whoops. In 20 seconds going all out with
these striking Sports. Yes, the I definitely love was
something I loved about. Kickboxing was definitely
learning the kicks, especially like roundhouse cooks and just
like feeling, so like powerful and strong, like ball hitting
the bag and yeah, like it just makes you feel Powered.
And that's why it kind of really love that workout and not only
that. Like, when I started to do
kickboxing, I started to notice like my body, just like
gradually, like slim down, like it was so crazy like I was
getting more. I was getting more definition
but definitely not growing muscle from that workout.
It is pretty empowering to like have good quality control over
your limbs. I feel like when you're pursuing
doing kicking like you have to have good balance, you have to
good flexibility. Like you have to really get
those those Honed in and I feel like doing a striking sport,
like that's a worthwhile Endeavor for that.
Plus you just feel more confident capable as someone
that can be self-sufficient and protect oneself if you need to,
you know, yes exactly. All right, so from there you get
into the resistance training and you decided to jump into the
world of, you know, figure competition and you reached out
to me. But what in the world made you
want to go kedo? I mean, because we started
working together as a 19 and when you're looking at all these
magazines, In talking to other people that are competing and
looking at the glute programs and whatnot.
They're probably not doing Quito.
Yes. So I actually was keto way
before I started to do bodybuilding way before I
started to even want to do any sort of weight training.
So my journey and Aikido it's really funny because I think
I've started keto may be back in 2016 that was kind of like a
rough start. So I started yukito a Oh and I
didn't last for like 3 months. I think I lasted for two and a
half months and I like couldn't do it anymore.
I think one reason that maybe was you kito's I saw Drew
Manning on dr. Oz of course.
And and I was like so like profound at like the keto diet
because of course it's geared as a weight loss diet and it's
like, oh so you can eat all the fats you want and not gain
weight even though that's really not the truth.
I learned that the hard way and so And so yeah, that's when I
did he do. And when I attempted to do the
diet in 2016, it was very hard for me to like, stop eating
bread and like, honey and bananas.
Only because that will, those Foods were something.
I was very used to, especially being a fitness kickboxing
instructor, like I needed to have those cards to get me,
like, through my day and to teach classes and everything.
So, yeah, that was very hard. So then I decided, okay, next
year, 2017. Let me try the key.
No diet. Again, I remember I was actually
getting out of a I was coming out of a trip from San Antonio,
visiting a friend, and then I came back home and that's when I
started. And so, and I kind of did more
research on what foods you should incorporate.
So I really did that. I kind of did an overhaul of all
the foods I was eating and I really kind of start to like
having a bulletproof coffee. I was in love with almond
butter. I think I still use a lot of
vegetables at Time. Like I was seeing a lot of
broccoli, spinach mixed greens and like bell peppers.
I tease. I didn't really have a lot of
protein at first, so I think that was like something I really
did not get a grasp of how much protein you needed on keto.
And then I think I was in Quito for, like, a good three months.
And then I remember this was like the light bulb effect that
I had when I'm going through my day at home.
Home like doing chores. I go with meal prepping and I
was doing laundry and then some just doing chores out, chores
all day and so, I had a light bulb moment when I came into my
room, to grab my clothes, and I was walking through the hallway
and I'm just like, I feel so good right now.
Like the way I'm breathing and like, my mental Clarity, like,
it felt like I was breathing like fresh air, like from the
mountains, like, everything was. So crisp and it just dawned on
me like I've been doing keto for three months and I have all this
energy. It was something that I was not
used to. And then and then I started to
remember that feeling throughout my day and throughout the, like,
the next piece to come and I started to realize, like, in the
morning, I am like on my feet, like, in my kitchen, getting
myself ready and I'm not tired. Because I remember before, when
I used to have carbs for breakfast, I remember just like
sitting at my dining room table and drinking coffee and Just
having no energy at all like being sluggish and then when I
was doing keto for like, three months, that's when I realized,
like I have so much energy in the world right now.
So I think from that from that point on, I was like there's
probably no turning back to eating carbs now.
Yeah, it's crazy. Like when you eat a bunch of
carbs, like you just have this lethargy that just kind of
follows you around everywhere, like the whole stereotypical
post Thanksgiving meal food, coma thing, and And you know,
there's definitely times now we're I'm tired like, oh, wake
up tired. I'll be tired, but it's not like
this extreme weariness that is just leaving me totally immobile
and give an incapacitated. Like I can, I can easily like
flip a switch and get up and hustle, even if I'm lacking
sleep, and I'm often times lacking sleep and I feel like so
much that it just simply stemming from the fact that my
body always had a pretty pretty good source of fuel, that
happened to with stored body fat because it knows how to.
And I feel like if you're not Fan adapt, if you're not doing a
ketogenic diet, all of that is just totally Greek to your body
and you're just never going to perform, you know, from a
longevity standpoint, nearly as well.
Like, just simply having the mental sharpness is worth its
weight in gold for me. Yes, exactly.
I totally agree with you, Robert.
What about your switch? You said, when you first
started, you were doing fewer protein, or less protein and a
lot of veggies. And I feel like that's
oftentimes the case I feel like people, you know, Art diving
into Quito and they have this this association with vegetables
being a really necessary thing for health.
So that incorporate a lot of them and it seems as though as
people stay keto, their vegetable intake, more or less?
Kind of declines over the years. I was eating a lot of veggies.
When I first started and I'm not necessarily corner for like you
don't have to be carnivore by any means, but it seems as
though the longer you're doing keto for many people, they wind
up eating less vegetation over time.
It seems Yes, and really like when I started keto, like I just
did this all on my own I never really even had like keto ketone
strips or whatever I was trying just to get my body like I guess
fat adapted. And like I had no like tools to
see like oh if I'm in ketosis or not.
So I kind of just went over like how my body is feeling and as
far as the vegetables go because you know, I was switching from
the standard American diet and Taquito like I just kept veggies
in because I Of course, everyone says, vegetables are good for
you and of course you know, and I had a lot of like broccoli and
cheese. I think that was probably like
I'm one of my favorite meals, but like I really didn't start
turning into a carnivore or like, keto carnivore until I
started doing bodybuilding, until I was actually coached by
you Robert because of course. I mean like I honestly wish I
had a coach when I started keto instead of going in there
blindly. But you know, I've definitely
learned so much being coached by you and And like hitting these
true like keto macros. I think it's really helped me a
lot. As far as I keto journey goes.
Well I think like appreciate that.
First of all, but I think a lot of people when they're when
they're attacking it from like a performance standpoint.
Like you are, like if you're lifting, if your training if
you're tracking, if you're getting your sleep, dialed in if
you're getting your if you're using like you're lifting
metrics as a proxy for Progress. You start playing around with
the vegetation and taken. It seems as though you know, any
increase in vegetation doesn't really have a Corresponding
increase in performance. Like I don't really feel any
better when I'm eating more veggies, but what I do notice is
that my digestion seems to be more irregular less consistent,
less favorable when I have a lot of veggies.
And I'm assuming that's probably, you know, that may be
different for people like if they're eating more veggies, you
know, and a normal Baseline they're probably going to have
more gut microbiome you know they're in place for fermenting
that food but if you look at it from a performance standpoint
from a calorie intake standpoint, It from a fuel
standpoint. There's not a whole lot to gain
from a bunch of veggies from like a performance standpoint.
It seems yes. And actually what actually made
me like stop eating veggies is that I actually started doing
egg fast and so that like make fast is for the general.
Rule is you're supposed to just have, you know an equal ratio of
like a fat source to two eggs. Those typically like my whole
day, I was just eating You know, ba butter, a little bit of
cheese and some eggs, I think doing egg fast like that.
Help me like, stop eating vegetables.
And I just realized like it's like not having vegetables in my
diet, like my digestion was absolutely fine and then I think
doing an egg pass, just kind of helped me be and the deeper
state of ketosis because I had crazy energy that I had felt in
a while and like my mental Clarity was like insane.
So I think it just, you know, push me.
I'm more into ketosis more. And you know, and my energy
levels were, of course, you know, they were still really
good. Yeah, I think egg fact, I think
you introduce me the egg fast honestly, I feel like I never
really done one prior to talking to you about it and then I gave
it a shot and from a from a volumizing your food standpoint
and like if you're doing a bunch of scrambled eggs like you can
get a whole bunch of volume on your plate for yes whole lot of
calories. So from a, you know, competition
prep standpoint when calories are low, there towards the end.
If you want to make a You significant portion of your
calories come from scrambled egg.
That's probably the best way to get a bunch of volume in and
your body's going to assimilate that egg nutrition a lot better
than it would from the same amount of volume coming from,
you know, big salad or something?
Yeah, exactly. In fact, I think that was like
one of the main differences between my first competition
prep, in my second year of competing.
I remember the first competition prep I did.
I was eating a lot of big salads and stuff and My digestion was
all over the place and then the second year of my competition
prep, I was doing more of like, keto carnivore, you know, eating
eggs. I was eating a lot of ground
beef actually, and I just found that my stomach did so much
better. Yeah, I'm definitely kind of
like, a ground beef and eggs kind of guy when it comes to
like the staple of my nutrition. And then from there, I add or
subtract, you know, keto brick butter, heavy cream,
occasionally some veggies if I want to just mix it up but I
don't really do that from a performance standpoint, but
Making ground beef and eggs. Pretty much.
The staple has always worked really well for me.
Yes, exactly. I completely agree with you
there Robert. So I guess your spreadsheet
pulled up, I kind of want to get a listener some context.
So we started this last prep on 1228 of 2020 and you were coming
in at 137 pounds in and you were starting your, we actually
started, increasing your cash for bit.
So you started at about 2000 calories and then we increased
you up to looks like 2420 yet 2400, I think is where it peaked
and then we started, I guess we technically started like that
whole time. There was trying to figure out
what your true maintenance intake is kind of getting your
higher caloric intake, dialed in.
And then we started your true true prep on 3121.
So, March 1st of last of, yeah, last year.
And you were 133 pounds at that point.
And we started at 2365 on the couch.
He's, you know, about eight percent of calories, come from
fat and then we slowly chip that away until showed a.
And your first show was on 813 you've weighed in at 1:17 on
show day then and your calories were like, you know, 1350 you
had a real feat of 1700. So your average for the week was
about 1,400 calories and then you did a couple shows yet
another show on 8:28 and that was weighing of 119.
And let's see here. That was pretty much that was
your last show, right? The one on 8:20.
Yeah, I did, I did another show in September light in 2021.
I did at all three shows so my last show should have been in
late September. Okay.
Do you happen to remember the date on that one?
Um, cause I wanna say it was like one of the last 925, that's
what it was. Yeah.
The light.
Yeah. One of the last weekend's in
September and what's crazy. Is that, okay?
So that first show you weighed in at 17 and your average intake
was 1,400 calories. Counted the briefie your second
show was two weeks later, you weighed 119 and your average
intake was 1341. And then few weeks go by the
whole time, we're doing refeeds, keto refeeds, and then your show
in September 1925, you weighed 112 pounds and then from here.
Yeah. So you lost quite a bit, the
felt like the book. So my book, You are the the the
model modeling, the bikini shots and those photos were taken at
which of those shows. Do you remember the last one in
September? Okay, so that was when you were
the lightest and that was a stage weight of 112 pounds.
And with the refeed you're right at about 1,300 calories as it
averages out at that point, like your refeed was 1759 calories
and then your intake was like 12:00.
So it averages out your roughly about 1,300 calories which is
pretty much the To take any of my clients and then and that's
when it gets interesting. So this is where I really want
to kind of conversation because we wanted to do, I think you
mostly want to do a just really, really slow, controlled reverse
diet. And when it comes to reverse
dieting, like some, there's like two trains of thought.
So, something like she, I guess they're straight change of
thought. Three trains of thought.
Some people just want to say screw it all and then eat
whatever. And that doesn't really go over
too well like they put on a bunch of body fat.
They Lose that conditioning really, really quickly.
And they, oftentimes have a negative rebound effect.
They gained more weight than they were when they started the
prep. It just not a pretty picture.
That's what happened to me. My first show, I had a bunch of
eating disorders that develop from that's just not good.
And then other people, the other two trains of thought are like,
having a strategic reverse diet, and most people want to kind of
return to some degree of normalcy soon.
They've been prepping for a while.
They've been tracking the macros tracking their training,
Everything dialed in. They want to return to more
time, and intuitive approach, and they're willing to sacrifice
some conditioning and some definition to return to that
degree of normalcy sooner, rather than later.
So, we'll be a little bit more aggressive with the reverse you
were of the opposite opinion and that you wanted to be, you
wanted to retain that conditioning as long as possible
but still increase in calories that you're training, wouldn't
be hindered really and you were fine to continue to track and
keep things down. Old in Rat, the entire reverse,
which a lot of people are not but you like that style of that
lifestyle. So it worked really well.
I don't want to steal your thunder here because I want you
to dive into this. But okay, what's interesting?
Just from a high level for people, listening is at your
show date on 925 you wait 112 pounds from there.
We showed increase in calories, so your average intake then was
you know, 1300 calories. Once you factor in the refeed
and then we only increased calories from that.
Point, however, your weight continue to drop, I'm trying to
find your lowest weights in the reverse that and it's looking
like it was remember off the top your head.
I want to say, I think that was like, one time where I weighed
myself and I was like, maybe like 105.
Like yeah, like way below like 110 like yeah, like 107 108 or
something like that. There's a 10-4 on 1228 you would
104. Yeah, like 28, Hmm, which is
crazy. I mean like when you start
looking at in the laws of thermodynamics calories in
calories out, energy balance, all that stuff.
Like we mean, your superstructure like you have a
job, you have, you know, like a standard, you know, clock in
clock out of time. You have your cardio that you're
tracking every training that you're tracking and we are only
increase in calories and from 925 when you were eating around
1300 and Wade, 112 on that 12:28 when you 104 your average
intake. At that point is almost 1,900
calories. So, a pretty significant
increase in calories. Let yet you've reached your
lowest weight, which is pretty freaking crazy.
Mmm. Yeah.
Like I don't even know like how that happened to be honest with
you. Yeah, because and I think it's
because I think the pressure was just off of, you know, me being
so hyper-focused on my physique. I think something that really
did help us that ice did start a new job.
And I just knew like all my focus is going to have to go
towards this job because I really want to do well and I
really want to get promoted. I'm still working on getting
promoted and so I just knew that like all my thinking and my and
my focus had to go towards my new job.
It's right. And I think that really kind of
took off a lot of pressure from me from, you know, looking
myself in the mirror and be like Oh I'm Eileen enough in my stage
ready or whatever. As long as I as far as my
journey in bodybuilding goes, while I was in my reverse
dieting phase as long, I just checked the box as long as I got
enough sleep, as long as I was, you know, tracking my meals and
meal prepping. And as long as I got, My
workouts in like I was happy like those were the three things
that I just need to check off every day.
Just to make my reverse diet, you know, just to be successful,
my reverse diet and as long as I was okay with getting those
three things in my focus was on my new job.
But I think you know, starting a new job that really just help me
with my reverse dieting and as far as the weight loss, go like
I don't know, maybe because I was using my brain for like the
first time. Think I'm thinking like my brain
probably pick up a lot of calories like has to do a lot of
thinking about my new job and and yeah and it's funny how my
weight drops because even my coach I mean she took out cardio
from my training session. So all I was doing was, you
know, resistance training, all he was doing was weightlifting
and I felt and after my last show was weird, because I felt
really strong and really recovered.
So I mean, every week, I had PRS, I mean, Yeah, like I was
lifting heavy, but like my weight was still dropping, but
in my head I'm just like, I'm just like, I didn't really think
too much of it because I was increasing calories.
So, like I don't know, like, I don't know what kind of, I don't
know what kind of led to my B losing weight, but I think
probably the main part is because, like, I wasn't
pressured to look a certain way as far as my intimacy goes.
Yeah, I would imagine your body's flushing out some
inflammation weights. No, some water retention, simply
from all the stress and anxiety that worrying about your
physique can bring on. You know, if you remove the
cardio, you're losing that form of expenditure but then you're
probably able to pour more into your weight training.
So you're burning probably more calories than plus, you're
getting more calories in, you know, from the increase in food
in the macros. So you're probably training with
a higher degree of intensity. But yeah, it was just, it was
really interesting to watch that unfold because most people, they
finish a prep and they've been just obsessing About macros and
tracking, and training for months.
So they just kind of have this, screw it mentality and they eat
everything inside that only have a plan, but you are so hyper
focused on something, totally outside of bodybuilding is that,
you know, you were kind of just checking the boxes when it came
to body building which I think was, you know, great.
It worked in your favor because you weren't obsessing about it,
which made your natural hunger cues, probably more legitimate
as opposed to having this Feeding Frenzy mentality that
comes with obsessing over food. And so you're able to just let
your body take what you were giving it make the most of it.
And lo and behold, you kept leaning out despite the steady
increase in calories, which is not the norm but awesome that it
happened so much. So the point that when I do my
next prep, I'm going to also adopt this ridiculously slow,
reverse diet that you did and honestly, like it was slow, but
we, let's see here. So we were increase in calories
and there were times. Times.
We were only increase in like five grams of protein a week.
Sometimes we would do like a biweekly adjustment.
But I mean, your body responded perfectly to it.
Like you were losing weight. You didn't start actually
gaining weight until probably January.
Yeah, I guess. Probably about January
mid-January. Later January started, slowly
moving the other direction. But how many weeks are you
post-show now I want to say, like, like 40, it's going to be
49, so it's almost gonna be like one year since my last show.
Yeah. Which is crazy.
And your current intake is one I'm sorry you were starting to
cut out there a little Robert. Your current caloric intake is
Nat. What do we have you at this
week? Oh 2575 2575 and your weight.
Now you're at 1:30 now roughly which is still about seven
pounds under what you started the prep and so you're eating
more your way and less but your composition is significantly
improved, you've got more lean tissue.
One thing that I think is truly awesome with the ketogenic prep
that I don't really see. Happening so much with
traditional prep protocols is that as calories are dropping
and your training and your trying to maintain the same type
of overall volume and attend to that.
Your you did in the offseason, you never really lost any
strength. And that's been the case with
me. What I'm doing my prep, that's
been the case with all my other clients.
It definitely gets harder to train, you know, with that
degree of intensity when calories and lower but it's not
like your top deadlift Max drops in half.
It's not like your Losing a lot of real strength and I feel like
because of that you're able to reserve that lean tissue much
better and then when you do Transition back into reverse
diet with the focus of building more muscle, you're not having
to make up for lost ground. Like you pretty much just start
right? Where you left off.
Yeah, that's very true. In fact, I was so surprised
during this second prep that I had like, I could not believe
like how many PR's I was still doing, even up until showed a
like it was so crazy. And yes, like some days were
hard, like, I still had days where I would go into the gym
and grit my teeth and get the workout done, but it wasn't
like, I was rushing myself and be like, oh my gosh, hurry up
for this workout to get done. It was more.
So I was still meant We and focused like in the zone and was
still, you know, pushing myself. They're all my workouts to get
these quality Lipson and yeah, like I have to, I definitely do
agree with you there. Robert like definitely like
doing. I mean, I've never done any sort
of bodybuilding protocol with like the standard American diet
or anything like that, but definitely like with keto, like
my performance in the gym, never hindered while I was in prep,
what about your overall relationship?
And ship with food. I feel like that's something
that people oftentimes struggle with, like, how did, how did you
adopt a healthy relationship with food throughout your prep?
Like, was that something that came pretty easily?
It was their challenge of points there.
Honestly because I'm not going to pay that easy but I want to
say the dieting phase and calm prep.
I want to say it's easy to stay on track only because you have
like a time that like deadlines and then you're always
constantly looking at your body. You're always constantly
thinking like am I, you know, am I going to be stage ready?
So I feel like that's easy but even like, going through my prep
until 2021 even before I stepped on stage for my first show, And
I just remembered, you know, the feeling of being hungry, and I
just remembered like Marjorie, The Works.
Not done even after this competition season because I
have to reverse diet. And so, I already knew that the
reverse side was going to be the hard part because, of course, my
first set of competitions was back in 2019, and after my first
year competing, like, Robert like you had mentioned before,
like, after your first show, you had, you kept been binge eating
and you felt like you Q like developed a like eating
disorder. I fell into that same boat to
after my first year of competing, like like I know how
that feels to have that uncontrollable sense of hunger
and like you're just eating so much food, but the hunger won't
stop. So I just felt I learned so much
from failing. My first reverse diet to wear
the second time around. Like that's why I kind of wanted
to do a slow approach because I've never successfully
completed a reverse dieting. For me as an athlete, especially
since I want to do bodybuilding for, I don't know for how many
years, but I definitely want to keep going in the sport.
It was important for me to kind of gather the data my reverse
diet. Because how do I not know, like
what my maintenance is like, how do I not know?
Like, like 0, at this point of calories, I felt my Hunger cues
come back. Like I don't, I didn't have the
data to kind of, like, back myself up.
So, that's so definitely this time.
Around, that's why it was so on point.
And so on track just so I can have this data and so I can
better myself, you know, within the years of bodybuilding that I
do. Yeah, 100% agree.
I feel like, you know, having that data at your fingertips is
super empowering and I feel like, you know, looking at the
the prep the show day is like, the finish line is just not a
healthy thing in general. Like if you look at it rather
through the lens of, you know, you're at the peak of a mountain
but you still have to climb down the mountain and get back home
like that's probably the best way to look.
But if you don't have that mentality, you're going to cross
that Finish Line. You're going to think
everything's, okay. And you're going to screw
yourself over. Whereas, if you have that, you
know, Mountaintop approach where like you're climbing up the
mountain, that's your prep. You have the show day, that's
the peak. And you slowly go down off the
mountain and not Rick's risk. Jumping off a cliff, you're
probably going to be way better off for the Long Haul.
Yes, I totally agree with you there, Robert.
I mean, definitely, after just like bailing.
My first reverse diet, like, I learned, you know, I completely
learned from all my mistakes this time around.
So I just knew like, even while I was in competition season, I
just kept telling myself like the work is not over, just
because you get just because you're done with your show,
definitely the reverse diet. I feel like that's where most
bodybuilders probably do lose themselves because You know,
there is a thing called post-show blues.
And you in there is all suddenly, you know, not that
dedicated time frame to look, you know, show ready.
And I feel like this the improvement season is where that
can make or break you as a bodybuilding athlete.
Yeah, 100% exactly. In the day like you want it to
be a healthy sport, you want it to be a lifestyle you want to
keep getting better with every year that passes and if you like
come out of the show and then you have all these you know -
relationships with food disorder Tendencies you let yourself blow
up, put on a bunch of unnecessary body fat, you screw
your metabolic rate, your hormones, etc, etc.
What could be a really healthy sport now becomes a sense of,
you know, not health. I mean, like you're literally it
becomes a sense of demise to you, in the sense in the sense
that your brain screwed up. Your hormones are screwed up
your relationship of food screwed up and you've just
thrown away a great opportunity to become better and likely to
becoming worse for. And if you can bypass all that,
by simply Having some structure in the offseason.
Post-show, you're going to be way way better form.
Yeah, and I completely agree with you there, Robert.
I mean, yeah. Because even just like failing,
my diverse diet during my after my first year of competing like
I just after gaining like so much weight and everything, like
even I would look at myself in the gym, I had I actually like
develop some body dysmorphia. And I really thought I was like
going to developed or have developed an eating disorder.
It was so scary when I failed that reverse diet the first
time. Like, if I ever needed like
discipline like man, it was during that first field reverse
diet. It was like, I had to, like
fight for every inch of discipline that I had to, like,
not overeating to not become, like a victim towards, like, my
Hunger signals and everything. And I remember when I was
constantly feeling my reverse diet, and just feeling hungry,
and just being like, Like, well f it, well, let's, let's see,
whatever I want and I remember doing that enough days to wear.
Like I think it would like finally caught up with me and
I'm just like, sitting in my kitchen like, just eating, you
know, like peanut butter with like sausage or whatever, just
eating whatever and it just dawned on me.
Like, I'm not hungry, but for some reason, I just kept eating
it and that feeling for me was so scary.
Like I just felt so out of control and From that point on,
I knew it wasn't a hunger issue but it was more of like a like a
mental issue at some point. So for some reason, like
hormones were off and, you know, and I think something I learned
from that day was like, calories is not the issue.
I think it was just not getting enough rest and not optimizing,
you know, sleep and rest and doing the cardio that you're
supposed to do. Because the first time when I
feel my reverse diet, I remember like doing Extra cardio
sessions. I remember I told my coach that
and she got so mad at me and it was like, Another like light
bulb effect happened there and it was like, I was not giving my
body rest. I was not giving it sleep when
it needed to. So I so I kind of took that as a
lesson and took that into a competition prep, which, you
know, I listen to my body. I gave myself extra sleep.
I gave myself rest and even you know, still optimized my sleep
and rest days. During this reverse side that
I'm doing and everything, just worked better.
I was able to, you know, control my hunger and I was able to, you
know, PR my workouts only because I was really
prioritizing sleep and rest this time around.
Yeah, I think making sure that your sleep styled in and that
you're truly, you know, having periods of time where you're in
a parasympathetic State. Because I mean when you're in a
deficit and you're in a prep like that, that's very taxing on
the body. So like if you're going hard in
that sector of your life, you have to, you know, make up and
compensate in other ways and really optimizing sleep.
Is a is a pretty tangible win in order to do that but you made
one of the really good point and that's that, you know, your
first show you went off the rails, your second show you had
much more control and I feel like that holds true with a lot
of people. Like, when you do your first
show, you have no perspective because you've done it before.
And that fear, the unknown screws with your head and your
that much more likely to go off the deep end.
Whereas, and because of that, a lot of people know don't ever do
a second show, because it's only a - and Their life.
But after you've done the first show and you start doing the
next prep in the next prep, like you gain more prospectively to
prep that you go through and then just becomes more familiar
to you and then you don't really tend to operate on The Fringe
extremes because you know, it's not necessary to do so and
you're able to just make the entire process that much more
enjoyable to begin with. Yes, yeah, I definitely agree
with you there. I remember like when I was
failing, my reverse diet that was, that was when 2020 happened
and, you know, everyone's like, you know, I get home.
I hear old stories like, you know people you know, put on
weight and everything else on here.
Here I am like, you know, really just trying to like hold my life
together but this reverse diet and doing my workouts, indoors,
at my home gym and like really in 2020, I think that's when I
started listening to other bodybuilding podcast and start
looking at other ICB bikini pros and how they do their preps,
because shows were still going on.
So, you know, and since you know, my head was still in my
reverse side, I started to look into different podcasts.
One podcast I really loved is the bikini in the brain podcast,
which is by coach, Adam Bonilla and, and Ashley caught wasser
there from Team Elite physiques. But I mean, there are saying the
same stuff that you're saying Robert that like, you know, they
have athletes that come out of their first show and because
they don't have that expectation of reverse diet, they're going
to say, they're going to give every excuse in the world
saying, bodybuilding ruin their life and now they hate the
sport. They hate exercise.
The you know, they can't get back to eating healthy.
It's because, you know, you know, you don't have that
mindset of being, you know, like the work is not done just
because you get off show like you have to have like you you
have to have a plan after, you know, after your show.
So that way you're still successful and you can still
compete after. Yeah, I think, I think it's
really important to just never have enough switch.
Yes, there's times at which you're going really hardcore,
your track and everything to the T.
And you know, you've got a very specific Date in mind for
peeking you know for like a competition for instance but
that doesn't mean that there's ever an off switch to that in
its entirety like you're never ideally you know for going all
training all healthy eating habits, like you don't want to
just totally go off the deep end.
And I feel like, you know, I don't remember who I heard his
friend but they said rather than it being like a, an on-off
switch think of it like a dimmer switch where you're scaling.
It's like on a sliding scale to the degree of intensity, you're
targeting with things and if you do it that way, if Is never an
off switch. You're still building your
day-to-day, you know, function off of the healthy habits that
you've built that have led to the success.
You've seen thus far with the sport and if you're able to dim
that switches opposed to turning it off, you're likely going to
retain some degree of these healthy habits and that that
will likely bode well for making sure that you don't, you know,
go off on an extreme and that that in itself makes us much
more sustainable and I feel like that should be the key with
anything. Because you don't ever want it
to be a - like, I mean, if it becomes a negative in your life
than what's the point, you know, um, guys especially, you know,
if you still want to be, you know, competing and making those
improvements to get better. Like I know I have a big goal to
you to be on the national show National stage next year, for
the NPC. So, you know, for me, like I'm
still very much like, on in this Improvement Season.
I don't like to call the Improvement Season offseason
only because, you know, Things really like turned off, like I
feel like I'm still eating the same Foods on prep, but just in
bigger volume and plus like I can have a little bit more like
fun foods like, you know, different nut Butters and I can
have like higher cuts of protein.
You know, such as like chicken, thighs and I can have Salman
again. So, pretty much like just
because, you know, you're in a caloric Surplus, doesn't mean
you can eat whatever you want that.
You know, I'm still eating the same foods like I am on prep,
but just in bigger portions. Yeah, I think that's That's huge
to like you don't ever have to sacrifice the types of foods
your for me with a you know like a traditional approach, like a
traditional carb road that approach.
Like, if the pending on they're doing flexible dieting or not,
but a lot of them will just, you know, do a super clean bro, diet
and then skip out on all those junk foods, but then, when the
show is over, they feel deprived of those Foods, they bring them
back in excess. If you're doing a flexible
dieting approaching, you're eating more of those junk Foods
because you're working in them into your mouth.
Crows. Then it's probably not the most
nutrient-dense source of food to be consuming.
Why in the context of a deficit, which is not likely optimal with
the ketogenic approach. You're eating the most
nutrient-dense foods, and ideally becomes a lifestyle for
you. So you don't feel like you're
sacrificing it all by not having the cupcakes and Pop-Tarts.
And then when the show is over, you don't feel like you've
deprived yourself by not having those so you don't really need
to introduce him again. And you just continue to eat the
foods that, you know, your body responsibility.
Well, to you just, you know, moderate the intake, exactly.
I think, definitely something, this go around.
Since I've kind of like move my eating habits to more.
Keto, carnivore approach was the key word here, nutrient-dense
Foods because now that I am, I'm not eating any like, processed
foods. In fact, I don't even have foods
that have like certain like gums in there.
Like like I know like my heavy whipping cream had like agile
and gum in there. I got rid of that, I found a
better brand. But even foods with additives
like that, it's so crazy how like it can make you like
addictive to a certain food. But, you know, since I've kind
of adopted a more ketogenic carnivore approach.
When I was doing bodybuilding, I no longer really have cravings
for like Oreos or Pop-Tarts or ice cream or anything like that.
It's more. So like I have a craving for
like a steak and I think just eating like Giant dense foods is
definitely helping me in my lifestyle overall, which will
only lead to, like, longevity. Like I know when I go older, I
don't know how long I'll be doing bodybuilding, but, you
know, as I get older and my 60s, and 70s, or whatever, like, I
know that like, my organs will be fine because I'm not pumping
my body with all these food additives.
Well, I've got no doubt that you'll keep getting better.
I mean every should have seen you in been able to A role in
like you look better. Every single time.
I step onstage. You're super detail.
Toying with your training with your nutrition.
So I've got no reason to believe you won't keep getting better.
So, I hope you're stepping on stage when you're, you know, 78
years old and still kicking. Yeah, I mean, just like I like I
really don't know how long they'll be doing bodybuilding,
but right now, like the definitely like the short-term
goal right now is just to get myself on the national stage and
like, just even the thought of me, going to Nationals because
last year, it was funny because on that last show I did in
September. I remember like, one of the last
things I kind of yelled out to my family.
As we're, like, driving to the venue.
I was like trying to get some rest, and like, everyone's
feeling, like, talk in the car, whatever.
I'm just like, I just need to close my eyes.
Like, I'm trying to get nasty qualified here and lo and behold
on that last show. I actually did become nationally
qualified. So, I mean, if I really did want
to do National show, I could do it this year, but I really chose
to stay in my improvement season, of course, to know build
a little bit little bit more because honestly when I see
these girls get on the national stage For bikini, it's like holy
crap. Like, you have to look the part
of an ifbb Pro and honestly, I don't think my body's quite
there yet, but I feel like with all the improvements I've been
doing so far, like, I will get there for next year.
But the only. So, the thing, how the NPC works
is that once you Nashi qualify, I think it your, your National
qualification only lasts for like that year in the upcoming
year. So next year, Have to become
nationally qualified again which I think I will be if I got nasty
qualified with the physique I had last year.
So I just have to become nationally qualified again and
then I can get onto the national state.
Yeah that's honestly one of my biggest frustrations with many
of these federation's. Like if you do a pro qualifying
show you earn a pro card. You become nationally qualified
be able to compete at the national level.
They put this time stipulation on there, but oftentimes it's
within such a short window of time that competitors are, you
know, pretty much A push to compete again within 12 months.
Yeah. And that's not really optimal if
you're trying to have a building phase, especially if your
natural competitive. Like, if you're a natural
athlete, and you just spent six months prepping and you got to
do a reverse dyin, I mean there's no time at all to build
before you get it started again to maintain that window of
qualifications. So I wish Federation start
broadening vent a bit more but who knows.
I'm in a lot of these federation's like the NPC.
I mean a lot of those competitors are not natural so
they're able to Kind of shorten those windows by, you know,
edition of performance-enhancing drugs.
But you know for people that do want to keep things natural and
you know make this a healthy sport from a longevity
standpoint you really need more time.
Yeah and I really do see that especially when I do watch these
ifbb bikini Pros like try to qualify for the Olympia which it
kind of like raise my eyebrows a little bit like being an amateur
in the sport and I see all these iife Pros like they're competing
almost Be weaker, like, almost like every two, to three weeks,
they have a show. And I like, always felt like,
why are they competing so much? And it's because they have to
qualify. Let's see if you don't because I
think one of the ways you can for sure qualify to get into the
Olympia is if you if you place first in the show, well, there's
other and I think this year, they have it.
So, there's point. So I think, I think if you place
like first or like first, second third, you get Olympia
qualification point. So, Actually all of these girls
they kind of know. They're competing like five six
times a year just to get those points just so they can qualify
for Olympia. But I've seen some really smart
pros and there's you know, there's one pro that I follow
her name's Morgan dead and Miller and she actually
qualified for the oh last year. So I'm not mistaken.
She got top 10 and everyone was so excited for her and I think
she did the Arnold as well. And then I think after the
Arnold's this year, I'm not sure if this is correct or not but
she said she wouldn't be competing in the 0 because she
want to work on her physique and I think Lauren Dan Miller was
one of the IP Pros. I did follow a lot during 2020
as far as her competition season goes and like I honestly like I
like how she attacks her. Her overall training, like not
just called print but also you know, her Improvement Season
everything I think she's, I think she's very balanced and
she has she has an awareness of her body of When it needs rest
and you know you know, when needs food and everything like
that. And and the fact that she's
actually taking like the rest of your office, not cooking the,
oh, this year, was I found that to be, you know, I kind of look
up to her for that because like she knows because she knows that
she wants to like be up there, like, in the top five for bikini
Olympia. I just like, I know she wants
it, so she's gonna like, you know, take the time off and
develop like to develop. To be better on stage for the oh
the next time. So, I mean, I really do commend
her for that for taking the year off because everyone thought she
was going to do it again. But yeah, I mean like, like you
said Robert unfortunately with NPC and I Phoebe there's so many
people that do the Peds and steroids and like I feel like
for for the bikini Pros I can tell which girls are Juiced or
not and it's and it's so funny when I see like the like the
natural girls when they go up there and they do place like
when they do get like a first place or they Place like top
three because I know like, okay, like it is possible but you have
to do the, you have to do the work in your improvement season
to get there. Yeah. 100%.
And I feel like it's admirable that people at that high level
are taking that time off me and vocal about it because I feel
like more people need to hear that for sure.
Because there's just so much ignorance around what is and is
not possible naturally on both sides of the spectrum.
Like like a lot of people are disillusioned to the point of
thinking that you know the elite.
Level mr. Olympia bodybuilder natural
which is not the case, but on the same Spectrum are on the
opposite of the same Spectrum. There's a lot of people out
there that assume that in order to have any muscles at all, you
got to be taking steroids, which is also not the case at all.
So that's why I'm so passionate about the sport or natural
bodybuilding, as a whole, like really pushing your body's
natural capability to see what it's capable of from a physical
standpoint. But also from a mental
standpoint to maintain that degree of consistency and
discipline. It's just, it's just awesome.
So for people like you that are doing it naturally that are
doing it right? They're doing it with a proper
diets. Proper building phase proper
cutting phase. It's just awesome for me to be
able to have the opportunity to work with you.
And I've always said this. But with my competitive clients,
you know, I watch you go through all these changes.
I want you go to the mental struggles, the mental highs, the
mental lows, and when you do that, it's just it's just so
cool. Like seeing people faced with
adversity, and how they respond in the face of that.
Adversity is one of the most fulfilling things that I've ever
had the opportunity. Opportunity to, you know, be a
part of so I can't thank you enough for letting me be your
coach for as long as you have. I'm honored to do it incredible
athlete. You've looked better with every
time you stepped on stage and I'm just super excited for what
the future holds for, you know. Well, you're welcome Robert.
Yeah. And it was great to, you know,
have you as a coach? I know I knew like, once I got
into bodybuilding, especially since I was keto before
bodybuilding, like I just knew I needed to have someone in my
corner so you know, to help back me up with a ketone.
Like approach to bodybuilding and so you know definitely doing
my research and then seeing you Robert since Lee you know you
compete. I think but I mean like for me
like having coaches that compete is important because it means
you know, they're still there still knowledgeable, the sport
and all the recent changes and everything and you know and plus
like when I have a leader that can actually like does like does
the job themselves like bodybuilding compete?
Like that's something that you know I can look forward to and
you know, Roberts been great to have you as a coach as well.
Well, I know by know before you had mentioned to me, you know,
if it if if you're still like necessary in my life, even after
my even during this improvement season, because I know you told
me, like we won't be like, tweaking macros as much.
And of course, like I still feel like I need you as a coach
Robert because definitely like there's not a lot of people
around me that I can like share and relate all my thoughts to.
So definitely having someone in my corner where I can talk.
You know, anything in the keto diet or any changes that I'm
experiencing in this improvement season, if I can share that with
someone and get feedback. It's great.
So I definitely still love having you as a coach Robert, I
certainly appreciate that love having you as a client and I'm
excited because we both be prepping at the same time next
year. So so that'll be.
That'll be pretty intense. Yeah, it'll be good.
Marjorie will where do people go to find out?
More about you? Follow along?
Watch the prep unfold. Watch the building Faison.
Fold, just get more information on you and general.
Okay, that's a great question Robert.
So I do have a public Instagram page so it's pronounced.
It's bacon, but it's spelled differently.
So it's going to be itz underscore be a 3 C 0 n
underscore. Can I have bacon in there
somewhere? Yeah.
Exactly like yeah, because I did have like a I did have a private
Facebook page but I change. I got a public one since I You
did last year to kind of like showcase my my journey in
bodybuilding and definitely with this page.
I definitely wanted to showcase the reverse dieting phase
because again it's it's a phase where not a lot of people.
See, I feel like with the 99% in general population, not a lot of
people know about, you know, the reverse diet or what happens to
a competitor like after they compete, you know.
So I feel like if I can provide this background information this
knowledge, you know, not Thing is about, you know, being lean
and all the Glam but you have to put the work in the background
order to really Shine On Stage. Totally agree and I learn a lot
in working with you like how your body is responding to this
particular type of reverse diet going as slow as we have.
That's exactly how I'm going to implement my future, reverse
diet in the light of what I've learned in coaching you.
So yeah, I think the reverse that portion of the fate of the
prep, you know, people need to have more awareness there.
They need to learn more about that.
And I've referenced you on multiple podcast multiple
Communications with other clients because you've done it,
right? Your body has responded
correctly and you're a perfect Testament to what happens when
you do. Have some degree of you know,
strategy, post-show post cut and I feel like everybody should
have been a bit would benefit from that.
So thank you for jumping on the podcast.
Thank you for letting me use you as an example.
And I'm just excited to keep working with you and see how the
next prep turns out Marjorie. So keep killing it, and keep
staying the Savage. You are Are.
All right, thanks so much Robert for having me.
You had a pleasure talking on your podcast.
You bet take care.