What's going on? Y'all Robert Sykes?
Keto Savage.com. And today I've got special guest
Danielle Hamilton on the line. She is the blood sugar expert.
We dive into all things blood sugar blood, insulin blood
ketones. See GM's glucometers, all that
good stuff. So definitely, definitely tune
in. If you want to get that dialed
in and kind of optimize your nutrition around your blood
sugar. We also do a deep dive into
digestion. She's been learning a ton about
digestion. She's been able to improve her
health by a focusing more on improving her digestion.
Digestion is incredibly important.
You can't. Not really make the most of the
food you're consuming. If your body is not even
absorbing what you are consuming.
So we do a deep dive into that as well.
I took a ton from this podcast. I've got no doubt that you will
take something from it as well. So that for their do is sit
back, relax and enjoy the conversation with Danielle
Hamilton. We are live.
Daniel. How are you?
Good. I'm great, Robert.
How are you? I'm doing wonderfully well
myself. So you are the quote unquote,
blood sugar experts that right. Yeah, I put that on Instagram.
So people can find me but I do know a thing or two about blood
sugar, for sure. I feel like everybody in the the
keto low carb carnivore space, at some point or another in
their Journey takes an interest in blood sugar Ketone levels.
Tracking via, you know, glucometer CGM or a ketone M.
But you've taken it to the nth degree.
I kind of want to dive into what all you've learned there, but I
love to kind of further. Start with what got you into
caring about this in the first place?
Yeah, absolutely. So my story is, of course
related to my own Journey as many of ours are here in the
health space. But you know, I was a pretty
sickly kid. Not not overly sick, but had a
lot of colds, flu strep throat, ear infections.
And of course, that meant tons of antibiotics, I was a kid who
was always drawn towards sweets and if it was a processed
breakfast carb, it had my name on it.
I would, you know, go to a barbecue and eat the bun.
With the ketchup and no burger. And I would eat, you know, just
ask for cereal for dinner and you know, needless to say, my
health was not that great that we have all those antibiotics,
then by my senior year in high school.
I got my tonsils out because I had gotten strep throat 6 times
that year. And then the next year.
I ended up getting a lot of seasonal allergies and Asthma.
And then for, when I went to grad school, I went to Miami
Florida and the season for allergies was all year round and
I I was allergic to palm trees and I mean it was like a cruel
joke and I really, really struggled and I was wondering
why I was so sick. I had so much fatigue.
I had so many sinus infections. I was like, why are there so
many things wrong with me? Why do I need three, you know,
prescriptions for allergies to inhalers.
I'm, you know, in my early 20s, something felt wrong.
I was a speech therapist at the time in nursing homes, and I was
looking at all my patients and they had all these lists of
diagnosis, and Is medications and it just felt like something
was so off. And no, doctor ever asked me
what I was eating. No one ever could tell me why I
was the way I was because I would always ask them like, why
is this happening to me? And no one to give me a reason,
of course. And so I came across Rob
Wolfsburg called the paleo diet solution and it flipped every
single thing. I knew on my head.
I wanted to be shouting, this information from a rooftop later
that, you know, transformed itself into having my own
podcast, where it was socially appropriate.
Talking about all this stuff, but I was just so excited with
what I was learning. And I realized that everything
that I had learned from conventional wisdom and from,
you know, commercials and what you hear Through the Grapevine,
just in society was all wrong. Everything I had Learned was
wrong and just basically do the opposite of what you've been
told. Don't fear fat lie into the fat,
you know, healthy fats, don't avoid salt, have her unrefined
salt, you know, and mostly what changed for me was.
I took the processed foods out of my diet, and replace those
with whole real foods and it was like a miracle and everything
started improving. I got off.
I didn't have to give myself five allergy shots anymore.
I didn't have to take medications.
I stopped having sinus infections and I was just on top
of the world and then later that year.
I had some really stressful stuff come up and all of a
sudden I started to have all these hormonal symptoms.
So I started to gain weight. I had a lot of fatigue.
I lost my good for six months. I had my sister, my cyclical
acne turned into very permanent acne.
It was all the time. It was just really, really hard
to get rid of and it just stayed on my face all the time.
And I was like what happened? Because this diet just made me
so healthy and then I know that I have stress but like how could
it be so bad for me right now? And I didn't think that going
back to what I was doing like the That processed food.
That that would be helpful. So I was reading and I found out
that I probably had PCOS or polycystic ovarian syndrome.
And for those who don't know it, it's basically a hormonal
imbalance and you have certain symptoms like missing or
irregular periods. You have weight gain and acne
and then some women get facial hair and loss of hair growth
from the top of their head. I didn't have those last two
symptoms, but I had everything else to the tee.
And I looked at the advice out there and it was like, don't
have refined sugar. I'm like, cool.
I don't don't have gluten, don't have dairy in like, great check,
check check. I'm doing all these things.
So since I didn't change anything, nothing changed, but
of course, I felt like I was doing everything right?
I was just struggling so much and so I went to a mainstream
doctor, a gynecologist and I said, listen, I can't lose
weight. No matter what I do.
I'm working out all the time. I'm eating super healthy.
I think I have PCOS. I need help and he And you do
have PCOS. You you have to lose weight.
You have to take the pill and there's no cure was like what
the heck kind of advice is that that's that was terrible, you
know, and so I walked out of there.
He made me take the prescription for the pill.
I ripped it up when I got in my car and I definitely got a lot
more motivation to reverse this thing on my own.
And I knew in my heart that there was no way this wasn't
reversible. I just I just knew it and so I
started to kind of dive into PCOS a little bit more.
I went to nutritional therapy school and I was listening to a
podcast by dr. Fung and Megan Ramos.
And Megan said PCOS is the diabetes of the ovaries and I
almost drove my car off the road because I was so shocked to
hear. I'm like, what the heck, does
diabetes have to do with anything?
And I was thinking back. I'm like, okay, what do I know
about diabetes? Something about blood sugar and
something about. Patience because I was working
in a nursing home and, you know, Saul out of that and that was
all I knew about it. So I had to go back to the books
and look at what the heck, my blood sugar was doing impacting,
you know, how it was, impacting my health.
And that's when I realized that I had had all these symptoms of
early, blood sugar dysregulation, and insulin
resistance, without knowing it because it's very silent.
So, if I didn't know what happened at the very end of the
spectrum of diabetes, How was I going to know these really,
really early warning signs that something's a little bit off in
your blood sugar. So for me some of the symptoms
were that I hated fasting for blood work because I went in
there. My blood sugar was 60.
No one batted an eye. No one said anything to me, but
yet, I felt like I was going to pass out.
I was shaky. I was dizzy.
I was lightheaded, it felt awful, really awful in my body.
And so I definitely didn't fast. I was someone who had to wake up
and eat right away. I would get hypoglycemic after I
had had coffee. I'd be shaking, I would sort of
pass it off to. Oh I had too much caffeine.
But really, it was my blood sugar and I was someone who
needed to eat before. I went out to eat because God
forbid the, you know, service took too long.
The food. I needed to have a granola bar
in my purse. But when I went paleo, it turned
into a larabar in my purse. So I was always needing to have
food on me. I was intuitively just snacking
and grazing and just throwing couple almonds in my mouth or
something like that throughout the day because I was, Was using
this to self-medicate to keep my blood sugar up.
And so I and then of course, I had that, that stubborn weight
gain my whole life. I always was holding on to a
little bit of extra weight. It was always hard for me to
lose weight. And especially when I became
when I was having these issues, when I was on Paleo, but I think
really changed was that now that I was embracing fat.
I was also having high carb with high fat so it really really
turned into a lot of weight gain for me and Just a bad, a bad
thing. And a lot of people will say,
well, paleo is, you know, a pretty low carb diet and I was
like not my paleo and that's not the way I was doing it.
I was having fruit all the time. Bananas blended in my iced
coffee with coconut milk and coconut sugar and kombucha and
plantain chips and smoothies and also a bowls and sweet potatoes.
And like you name it, it had like if it was a starter, if it
was a fruit, it had my name on it and I thought it was healthy
sugar, but as it turns out, That was way too much for my body.
So I learned all this sort of took out all those paleo dense
carbs and replace them with more facts to make my diet into sort
of ketogenic macros. I started doing some fasting and
I worked on my digestion and lo and behold.
My PCOS went away. My acne went away.
I lost weight. I never had another issue with
acne flares. I mean, it was amazing.
So now I became really passionate and helping people.
Cover those hidden signs of blood sugar issues and Insulin
resistant issues that are really at the root of so many issues in
their health. So yeah, that's my story.
No, I love. It's there's a lot to unpack
your so just to make sure I'm following along correctly with
the timeline. You were as a kid you rate in
all the processed carbohydrates and sugars all the breakfast
foods. That's when things are getting
bad, your allergies, everything else.
And then you said you started doing paleo in your early
Twenties that I hear that right? Yeah.
That's right. And then with that pain, Leo.
And paleo is interesting because I feel like with like paleo is
kind of like where keto is now. Like there's all these foods and
products that are coming out around the cage, think that and
when paleo blew up like that was the case with paleo, and there
was just so many super high carb paleo foods that were also high
in fat. So, just kind of like a calorie
bomb but not necessarily ideal. If you're trying to optimize for
either fat adaptation or burning glucose.
So it's kind of like the worst of Both Worlds.
So to speak. So you're probably just
Consuming energy and carbohydrates and that's when
things just got even even worse, right?
Yep. That's exactly what happened.
And like I said, all of those different paleo treats that I
would eventually that I had it was just way too many calories
and wait, you know, I was like, oh, calories don't matter
because it's real food and you know, so you want to go the
opposite way but I think paleo is a great template but it needs
to be customized for your goals. Do you have any siblings?
I don't, I have one brother. He's very thin.
I'm always super thin. We are totally different in
terms of our body composition. He was, you know, my mom was
always feeding him like Twix bars and Reese's like at lunch.
He would have peanut butter and fluff sandwiches on potato
bread. And I would have, you know,
peanut butter and jelly on like 100 calorie thin slice of whole
wheat. Something and granola bars.
And so she was always trying to fatten him up and deep, make him
gain some weight. And I always had to be on like
the quote-unquote diet foods, you know, in the Early early 90s
there. So is there any ideas to why
y'all would have responded? So differently as a young
adolescent with regard to the types of food you're consuming
and how your blood sugar and how your body is responding.
Overall. That's a really interesting
question. I never thought about it and no
one's ever asked me, but I think that, I tend to have more of
the, I don't like to use like, oh my genetics because I think
that's like, kind of a cop-out, but I tend to mimic the My dad's
families disposition. There's a lot of people
overweight, several of my cousin's.
Have PCOS. They're very overweight.
So there, I see a lot of insulin resistance and there's a lot of
heart disease in that family. Whereas, my mom's family,
they're all super thin and lean, and I think my brother takes
after my mom's side more. So I think that's, I don't know
if that's accurate, but that's my theory.
Gotcha. I gotcha.
So, when did you start tracking your Macros?
Are. Are you Tracking your Macros and
I'll now are you mostly just focusing solely on what your
blood levels are doing. So I started tracking macros at
the beginning. When I first started keto back
in February 2018. I did pretty strict keto for
about two years, and then started flexing in and out of
ketosis because I felt like that's what my hormones were
asking me to do. And I feel really good doing
that, but I started tracking when I started keto, and only
did for a few weeks because I I am not into tracking and
weighing, and measuring, that kind of thing.
Gives me like, adrenal fatigue and it kind of wears me out.
And then I started doing, yeah, using glucose monitors and kind
of seeing what my blood ketones were and seeing what my blood
sugar's doing to sort of guide me in with my goals and things
like that. Got you got you some more.
So once you kind of figured out and get an idea as to how many
macros are in a hand full size, portion of Given food that you
started, just focusing strictly on what your glucose and Ketone
levels were telling you where you using just a glucometer at
that point. And what were you using to test
that? So I was using my symptoms, of
course, and then also my I have a finger prick meter and then I
started to get see GM's later. So maybe in 2020.
I started getting see GM's for the first time.
So I was Michael and what I tell my clients to do because a lot
of them can come from this like obsessive.
Tracking sort of background and it sort of sets off some of
these eating disorder, type behaviors or overly obsessing
and micromanaging. And what I like to do is sort of
get an idea of what the macros are.
So knowing, like you said, like, how many, what the macros are of
a certain portion of food, and then being able to quote,
unquote, eyeball plate. So that you're able to sort of
just know what your Macros are more or less.
And that's been sort of how I've been doing things.
And yeah, and I'll use the, the finger prick meter or CGM to
sort of double check. And that's not 100% of the time.
But because you sort of get to know yourself, you're like,
okay, this is nothing new. You sort of get a rhythm down
and know how certain things are going to impact your blood
sugar. And then I might throw on a CGM
to sort of experiment with some new things.
Or if I'm going to do some adding some carbs, seeing sort
of what my tolerances for that, and how my blood sugar and
ketones. Respond to that.
I know you. Not tracking your calories on a
regular basis. It may be an impossible
question. But do you notice they're being
a pretty profound impact on your levels?
Whether you're in a caloric, Surplus versus a deficit?
Like do you ever have periods of time where you're intentionally
eating less versus that have intentionally eating more and
kind of seeing how that impacts your blood levels.
Hmm. I don't necessarily track that.
So the only time I feel like I might be in more of a deficit
would be times when I'm fasting and so I think that would kind
of throw off any data. It's not, I almost never look at
calories and maybe that's to my detriment.
Maybe that's something I might want to look at.
But I almost never do. Do you do like the extended
fasting on a regular basis? No, I used to, when I first went
paleo, when I first went Quito, I started He do with a three day
water fast. Do not recommend.
Especially when you're a hypoglycemic.
Like I was so that but I did do a few extended fasts.
I did some 24-hour fasting. A lot of like, 18 to 20 hour
fasts in there, but I don't feel like I need it as much anymore.
/ from having my own business and working so much.
My adrenals are a little bit fried.
So I find that my body doesn't really Respond super well to
fasting anymore and as longer than let's say like a 16 18 hour
fast. So I don't do the extended ones
at the moment. I'm trying to work to be able to
restore my adrenal function so I could get back to on,
occasionally, dipping into those fascists, but, at the moment,
not right now. Yeah, I don't do a ton of
extended fasting either. I mean, I'll throw in an
extended fast on a rare occasion if I'm in a significant caloric
Surplus, but I don't ever really do it.
Especially if I'm not. I don't ever fast for an
extended period of time when I'm trying to lose body fat, which
is I think when most people do it but extended fasting, when
I'm tracking my glucose levels and Ketone levels, like I get
some crazy numbers. Like I did a five-day fast few
years back and I think my glucose dip down to like, 35 or
something like that. My ketones are seven or eight
which is, I think that's the highest I've ever seen.
You need those numbers. Wow.
Yeah, that's super high. When I was doing extended
fasting, my blood sugar got down really low.
So, in like the 40s and 50s and then my ketones were quite High
to around the five Mark. So it was interesting.
It was kind of scary to see the blood sugar so low, but I felt
so great. And then when I had that high of
ketones, I was like, oh wow, this is this, is that it's
working how it's supposed to at this point.
Yeah. That's, I mean, I was definitely
getting hungry after about, you know, the four-day Mark for
sure. But I feel like, you know, most
people see a blood glucose level of, you know, 30, 40 50, and
they just assume you're about to pass out.
But I mean, my mental acuity at that.
It was just on fire and I feel like that was just combination
of the low blood sugar paired with the hierarchy tones, but it
is definitely interesting to see how doing extreme things like
that. Impact the numbers.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, for
people who do struggle with hypoglycemia those numbers, I
mean, even some of my clients being in the 80's 90's.
Hundreds feels like they're going to die, feels like they're
going to pass out, but when your body is Quito and fat adapted
and you can run on those alternative fuel sources, it
doesn't matter. What your blood sugar is doing?
So that's kind of the goal with a lot of my clients to get them
to be able to run off of these other fuel sources.
So that their blood sugar is not such an issue and can start to
stabilize in the meantime. Totally, totally.
I don't remember when it was, I think it was like, I don't know,
probably six months ago. There was all this flak out
there towards see GM's in the, not so much, the keto space.
But just in the, you know, I guess the, the Bro Health space,
all the Bros were, like, people that you see, GM's that aren't
diabetic and wasting their time and money, which I Frustration
with because I feel like, see GM's are incredibly insightful.
I don't, do you remember that time?
It was it was like a big deal for like six months ago.
I think I I do not actually, I don't know how I missed it.
But I dunno I guess because I don't like maybe in the the Bro
Fitness Community like some of those like calorie people might
think that but I'm not necessarily in that world as
much. So I didn't catch that, but I
think I do think that see GM's and any sort of like, Like when
we're tracking, there are going to be pros and cons to it
because we can tend to overdo it and sort of maybe fix things
that didn't need fixing. But for the most part, the value
that you get from a CGM is so insightful.
And so, so helpful. So I have actually, I'm working
with my chiropractor. We're sort of bartering
services, and so, I gave her CGM and she's, she's sending me all
her her grass and stuff. And she's like, oh my goodness.
This is the most like crazy amount of information.
I can never get. This is so great.
So she sends me this graph and she's like, what do you think
about this breakfast? And I'm like, oh, that's kind of
spiky, a little high. It's kind of taking a little
while for it to come down. Like, here are some tips to
help, you know, improve that that glucose outcome.
Let's try those tomorrow. So she, she said that she's
like, okay, how about this graph?
So she sends me to grasp the next day and I'm like, oh, this
is perfect. What did you do?
She's like I wasn't at work. Oh my god.
Oh, yeah. So, she sends me the difference
between the weekend days and then when she's at work, she's
getting all these crazy Spike. She's like, I didn't even eat
here. I didn't even eat here and it's
spiking all day and she's like, oh my goodness.
I never knew how much this was impacting.
My physiology. Like I knew, I might feel a
little stressed, or I knew I might maybe get a little
emotional or something like that.
But I had no idea the physiological toll this is
taking on my body and it's making her sort of, second.
Guess, you know, how she's running her business and her
practice because He's like, it's running me into the ground.
It's so crazy that I could be so healthy when I'm not at work.
So I just think, you know, between those non-food things
that we can't, we're not like measuring.
Oh, I'm going to check every 10 minutes for the next, you know,
two hours to see what happens after this meeting or, you know,
overnight when we can't be checking our blood sugar.
I think it's really, really helpful for a lot of those
things, and a lot of those other factors.
Those non-food factors as well. Yeah, totally Agree, I feel
like, you know as anything that's tracking and data driven.
You can definitely take it to the nth degree.
That is unhealthy, but I'm a data.
Junkie. So I like drooling in on, you
know, what, my CG. M-- data is showing what my or
ring with my garments. I gotta like all that stuff.
Yes. A deep dive on.
See GM's, continuous glucose monitors here, because a lot of
people have not used them are cures to use them.
Which one are you typically use like the Libre?
So I have I have used both the Libre and the decks comma use
the Dexcom one time. I got it from a company called
cygnus and I really really liked it.
So I am used to the Libre and that one has a little bit more
of a margin of error. So I always recommend that
people if they are getting a CGM to also get a finger prick
glucometer as well because those tend to be a little bit more
accurate. So we like to see GM's for more
of the pattern of What's going on?
And then you might know like, oh, you know, it's may be
trending 10 points, too high or something.
So you can mentally sort of subtract but it still gives you
great information. So there are those pros and cons
of it and one thing that I don't like about the Libre, if you
just get the regular one, you can't change.
What is it calibrate? The meter.
So if it is running 10 points, too high, you can't calibrate it
in the app, but with the Dexcom you can, you can sort of see Up,
and then I think the Libre to which I believe neutral sense
uses. You can calibrate it up or down
by I believe 20. Yeah when I got I got a couple
through nutritients and it was registering like 15 or 20
points. Hi from me.
So I had to calibrate it down. Like I just test it with ya
glucometer. And then I just, you know down
regulated by the 15 or 20 point. Mark the there's a couple of
companies doing the libran are right like nutria sense does the
Libre and then there's another one called level I believe and
They're using the Libre to, right?
Yeah, so neutral sense and levels are using the Libre the
Libre to I believe there is a company called taster moneill.
And this is definitely the cheapest way to get a CGM.
So in the u.s. you need a prescription to get one if you
didn't know. And so what testimonial does
they do have a program where you can get a box of food.
And so they have these different kind of like low-carb keto type
foods and They're doing is having a bunch of people put on
see GM's, eat this food and test their blood sugar.
So they can see sort of a general response to what blood
sugar does with a certain food, which I love that idea for the
data, but you can if you don't want those foods, which I didn't
want them. You can just scroll down on
their website to where it says ask first egm prescription and
then you purchase the prescription through them to get
the the CGM and they do the A on there.
So that's a good option for a lot of people.
And then signals does the Dexcom.
And so, I've been really liking their interface a lot on on
signals. Because when you start spiking
and I asked, you know, what is it that, you know, how fast is
your blood sugar go up that, you know, it'll tell you this and
they said it's a very complicated algorithm.
But what happens is, if your blood sugar is spiking to a
certain degree, it will alert you and it will say, you know,
your blood Spiking, you have the next 20 minutes to sort of
mitigate the spike. And so it recommends like go for
a walk for 10 minutes. Do some squats and blah blah
blah. So I really like that idea of
being proactive with your blood sugar and I like that the
interface allows you to sort of take action and not just like
give you this data. So I thought that was pretty
cool. And that's through signals.
You said. Yep.
Now is that like is that like a partner company with next comp
because I haven't been able to find And how to get a Dexcom
unless I go through a doctor and go there, the whole traditional
round. Yeah.
No II don't know how they have them.
But that's the device that they have that they work with.
So, I don't know if it's a partner company.
I don't know how they do it, but I'm definitely going to be
working more with them in the future.
So, I was just trying out the device from them.
Nice, nice. So, you know, the times that
you've used to CGM. What are some?
What are some common trends that you see personally and amongst
your clients So for anybody? Anything kind of know what to
expect, or what, are some common pattern recognition that you can
kind of look out for as relates to looking at the CGM data.
Yeah. So I mean, basic rule of thumb
is that we don't really want our blood sugar to rise, more than
30 milligrams per deciliter at a meal or else that starts to
become too high of an insulin Spike and starts to become a
little bit inflammatory for the body.
In general. We really want our levels to
stay under 140 because above that can be inflammatory, but
with blood sugar, there's No, like exact line that you cross
and then then it's a big problem.
It's sort of these patterns over and over day after day which
have the biggest impact. So for people who want to stay
in ketosis, we really don't want to see blood sugar.
Probably maybe going over the 110 Mark.
But again people have these different it.
There's so much bio individuality that you can't say
that a certain blood sugar number would cause someone to
have like To be kicked out of ketosis or not.
So again, I like the idea of sort of measuring your ketones.
If you're wanting to sort of see what your insulin is doing.
So those are some things to sort of keep an eye out for and so
some things that you might look for or CR that if your blood
sugar is going down too low at the end of a meal.
So let's say it starts at 80 and then it goes up a little bit and
then it goes down to like 70 or 60.
That would be more of a hypoglycemic or Response and
that hypoglycemia can happen anywhere from like immediately
after the meal. Some people experience it as
they're eating, which I find crazy and that can happen all
the way up to 5 hours later. So where the blood sugar is
going to low. Oftentimes, you might see dips
at night. Sometimes this is because you're
laying on the sensor, so I like that.
The Dexcom allows you to put the sensor on your stomach because
we lay on our arm a lot of times.
And so you might see these real Like steep dips at night.
If you are waking up with like a pounding heart and you or you
feel hungry, you need to eat, you feel faint.
You feel like you're having a panic attack, that is a sign of
a blood sugar crash. So you would probably see that
on your meter. I do see that some people have
high blood sugar over night, and the people who I see this with
tend to have some sort of stress going on.
So a friend of mine who is wearing a CGM, she had this
going on and she's thing with a lot of mold.
So that was sort of her pattern at Night.
My intends to go really low at night and go like, the alarm
goes off on the Dexcom. I have to turn my phone off
because it goes so low, but I'm fat adapted.
So it can go low. It doesn't wake me up.
It's not a bad thing. So that's sort of alluding back
to what we were talking about. Earlier that your blood sugar
can go low. When you are fasting, if you are
fat adapted and it will not be a stressful thing for your body.
If you're However, it might wake you up.
You might wake up feeling really exhausted and you would probably
probably notice and there's some instances kind of like the exact
opposite of that in which you may be fat adapted.
It makes sense for to go higher. For instance, when I was wearing
mine, you know, I typically would hang around like the 70
milligrams per deciliter Mark, but then I would work out and
then my CGM would say like immediately post workout.
It would be like as high as 120 or something crazy, but then it
would level off, you know, shortly after my body kind of
equalize. Aged, yeah, and so during stress
like stressful periods. That's also when we're going to
see these little spikes on the glue.
Come on the CGM. So, a workout where you're, you
know, getting your heart rate up, that's going to be a
stressor for the body. It's going to liberate glucose.
And so we're going to see that go up.
We also see it during showers with infrared saunas and even
just stressful events. So, some of those hormetic
stressors, like the exercise, the sauna we, it's totally okay
to have those spikes in there. As long as your body can handle
them, if you're someone with reactive hypoglycemia, or you
feel terrible after you feel really exhausted after that,
means your body. It was too much of a stress for
your body, going into the area of you stress as opposed to the
hormetic stressor, but over all those spikes that you see after
a workout and after an infrared sauna session, that's actually
going to improve your insulin sensitivity and your blood sugar
regulation over time. So those are totally okay, but
one thing that surprised me is one morning I was This was when
I was working in an office and I was late for work, and I was
getting ready and I hadn't eaten that morning and I get to the
office and scan my my cgn, and it showed like a big spike and I
was like, what did I eat this morning?
I was like, oh, I didn't eat. It was just, I was rushing
around, trying to get ready. So that's that stressor.
Again, that acute stressor can cause that blip in the system
and then the chronic stress when we see high levels of stress all
the time. We just tell And to see these
the blood sugar numbers rising over time.
So where you're hanging out around the 70s, other people
might be hanging out around like the hundreds, you know, when
tens when 20s and upwards just throughout their day.
Gotcha. I gotcha.
What about I've heard of a few people in like the carnivore
space, for instance, who are consuming a lot more protein.
Still a pretty good amount of dietary fat, but maybe not so
much. So as they would, if they were
following more of a traditional ketogenic.
It still very minimal carbohydrate or zero
carbohydrates are doing carnivore and they'll start to
see slightly higher blood glucose levels at Baseline.
Is that normal? Is that fine?
What's your take on that? So I don't necessarily have a
take on that, but I see that all the time.
It's just that high level of protein is kind of, you know,
the gluconeogenesis were just getting a little bit more sugar
in the system and then it tends to be a little bit higher over
time. I think that we don't
necessarily know enough about What that looks like for a long
period of time if that's ok if it's not.
Okay, so I don't really have a you know a good opinion on it.
What do you think about that? I think that I mean as long as
it's like within a healthy range, like if they're consuming
more protein that this this is interesting.
So there I'm all for protein like a lot of people are you
know in favor of protein. Lot of people are human eyes in
proteins. It's a strange thing protein
right now, but my whole take on it is consume as much protein as
As you can without any adverse effects, but a lot of people
have consumed in excess and there is certainly an upper
threshold to it. Your body would tolerate
optimally, because if you're, if you're trying to optimize your
body composition, if you trying to get enough protein in and
then you take in an Xs and go beyond that threshold, then
you're basically stealing from the energy that you could be
consuming and setting. If you're if you were to equate
calories, for instance, and make that Surplus beyond what is
necessary for building muscle and repairing.
Recovering. And then any of extra protein
you're consuming is is basically going to be inefficiently used
as energy through gluconeogenesis where you could
have just consumed that in dietary fat and if you're a fat
adapted that would be a better source of energy.
So that's kind of my around the bound, take on it.
Yeah, and I agree with that too. So, you know, the body can't
store excess amino acid, so it's going to convert it to glucose.
So if you get that in the form of fat, then you can utilize
that better as energy if you're fat.
Adopted and yeah, love that. Totally what about testing
ketones via the breathalyzers testing for acetones.
Become a lot more popular recently to you.
You put much stock in that, right?
I am not a fan of the breath. M.
I got one and I just I find like it takes a long time to
calibrate. Its got like countdown.
It's just to me. I feel like the blood, the, you
know, testing through the blood is just tried and true.
I'm familiar. A ranges.
I feel like that's what I've gotten used to.
Maybe I'm too old school on this and I need to adapt, but I just
haven't. I know that it is a good way of
testing as opposed to like peeing on urine strips.
That's a poor way of testing. So it is a good measure but I
don't personally use it very often.
Do you know it's interesting. I've had, you know, I've tried
several of them. I've tried several of them.
Like I remember when level, I think it's a totally separate
company than the CGM. But there was a company called
level for breathalyzers that was way back in, like, 2000 17 or
18, I believe and I was testing that out and I've tested several
of them since. And I think they're their
stances that basically by testing the breath, ketones are
able to see how much of these ketones your body's actually
using, which if it was very accurate.
I like that concept, but I don't know that the science and
technology is to a point where that can be.
Truly what it is accurately depicted because I do a lot of
the recommendations they give, I don't put much stock in the
recommendations. Like I don't think that it's
going to accurately say, hey, look, you're you're burning fat
Now. Versus now you're not burning
fat and they're trying to Market themselves as metabolic readers,
and I don't know that we've gotten enough advancement to
accurately measure metabolism in that regard.
I agree with that and so I haven't tried some of those
devices that tell you. It's like, oh, you're in a fat
burning mode. And this, it's like, I feel like
I've tried that and I had just eaten carbs and it's like oh
you're in fat burning. Or I don't feel like the
technology is fully there yet. And I was talking to a friend
and she's like we could put a bit a man on the moon but we
can't accurately. No, measure blood sugar.
And when I really want to see is a continuous insulin monitor,
you know, like where where is the technology on this?
I want to pay money to have this done because I think this would
be the best thing that we can ever get.
So I do know of a company that Is home fasting insulin testing.
It's called so well, and I'm excited to test my fasting
insulin. I got a kit.
So I'm going to test mine soon. But you know, the insulin is
really what we really really want to know about.
Yes. This is interesting.
So I totally agree. I feel like a continuous insulin
monitor would be by far the most most actionable form of testing
where the data is going to literally depict how we, you
know, make choices of words. And our nutrition throughout the
day. When it comes to things that can
be impacting insulin, but aren't necessarily showing up on a CGM
or glucometer. What are some things that come
to mind for you there? Things like like vegetable oils,
increasing our resistance to insulin and possibly making it
hang out a little bit longer in the blood.
I'm not sure if it works like that.
But yeah, just, I mean some of those stressors.
But again, we could see that on the CGM.
What did you take on the cephalic phase of insulin
response? Do you put much weight in that?
I'm actually not familiar with that.
So that's kind of like, how big a way to find it.
Basically. Like if you, if you taste
something sweet, your body, your brain is going to be receiving
the signal that, hey, something sweet is coming, which it
typically is used to that being sugar.
So it increases insulin secretion.
So you're basically getting an insulin response.
Even if you're not really fully ingesting anything, but
basically just having that sweet sensation on your tongue.
You also like, even if you're just thinking about food, Your
body is building up all these mechanisms for the digestion
process. That's one of the big arguments
against a lot of artificial sweeteners.
But for me, I've noticed that a lot of people they'll they'll
eat something that doesn't really have that big of an
impact on blood glucose. For instance, many of these
artificial sweeteners and natural sweeteners to aren't
really going to be, you know, high on the glycemic index
scale, but they'll notice many of the same symptoms that
they'll notice if it were to have been coming from sugar, if
that makes sense. Yes, absolutely.
And I'm very familiar with what you're talking about.
I just forgot the name of it. So this is when I tried like a
Lily's chocolate bar because it had like the stevia and
erythritol in it. And what I saw my CGM is a dip
and in the blood sugar and so you can see that you're getting
a an insulin response without having the blood sugar response
to then the blood sugar goes down.
I see this a lot in people who are extra sensitive to to just
blood sugar in general with a lot of Reactive hypoglycemia
clients, they experienced this a lot.
So a lot of these electrolytes out there for keto that have all
these sweeteners in them. And I think that is just setting
you up for so many cravings and all these things because you're
getting the insulin, whether it's just a small amount or not.
I think it really impacts when there's no food in the system
like all these processes. Like you said are at work and
then your body is like Hey, where's the food?
I thought we were getting it. So it will send that like
physiological. I'll drive for you to seek it
out and I'll notice if I have some sort of like a Redmond,
Real Salt, like the relight or like the the element when I
drink those, the flavored ones, all they'll hit my lips.
I feel like Frank the Tank and I just chug them and I'm like,
what just happened. You know, what, like, how is
this happening to me? Why did, why did that was that?
My response and I was drinking, like five of these things a day.
I'm like I need to stop. It is so so addictive.
So I think that part Part of it has to do with that insula genic
response that we get to these these foods that are sweetened
but not containing actual sugar. Yeah.
I totally agree. I feel like there's, it's
interesting because there's a lot of people that point to
studies that show. Hey, look, if you're, you know,
controlling for calories, there's not really any any
negative outcome that comes from artificial sweeteners or sweet
Foods. There's no increase in you know,
that driving more caloric consumption, etc.
Etc. But I know too many people
People especially in the keto low-carb space.
I don't know if it's a psychological response due to
them having an addictive tendency towards sweet processed
foods, but for whatever reason, I mean, I know way too many
people that that's a point to that say.
Hey, look, if I eat something sweet, my level of satiety is
incredibly diminished. My tendency to overindulge is
incredibly heightened like that to me, lets me know that maybe
it's just a psychological response, but I'm leaning
towards it. Having some physiological
implications for sure. Yeah.
I absolutely think it. As and then there's I'm not sure
about this but like the sweet receptors that we have in our
gut as well. So I think that that could have
something to do with it as well. I mean anything that's going to
impact our gut bacteria, make them think sugars coming.
They're sort of all excited that you know, something's coming.
I do think it is very physiological and especially if
you do get a little dip in your in your glucose, I call that the
Cravings own when your glucose is going down.
It automatically is sending signals to your body to like,
Hey, we need more energy because the glucose is going down.
So I feel like when the insulins around that is sort of a
byproduct of that. Yeah, I totally agree.
What's your take on vegetables? Like when you've tested with a
CGM? Do you notice much response from
you know, increased vegetable intake, especially through
eating vegetables in isolation without a bunch of proteins and
fats. I don't know that I've eaten
vegetables by themselves without proteins and fats.
I I'm honestly looking at vegetables more from a digested
perspective, lately that I feel like I do better with fewer
vegetables as vegetables, are causing me kind of some
bloating. I do have some gut issues that
I'm working on. So but I don't really notice,
you know, I mean, they're CGM, experiments out there having
some non-starchy vegetables at the beginning of the meal can
help to reduce the blood sugar response from the meal because
the fiber is slowing down the absorption of the glucose.
So I can see it being beneficial in that way.
But was there anything more specific about like starchy or
non-starchy vegetables? Well, I've like, just personally
anecdotally, I've noticed that, you know, a lot of people Point
towards vegetables was being incredibly satiating and that's
probably true in the context of a mixed diet in which you are
consuming more carbohydrates and glucose and it's kind of helping
to mitigate that Spike. But in the context of Aikido
low-carb carnivore diet, I don't find in any.
Any increase in satiety with vegetables of calories are
equated. When I feel like there probably
is honestly, I feel like there's there's probably a little bit
less absorption of nutrients. If you're eating more vegetables
paired with proteins and fence and you can kind of bypass I'm
going to cut for instance and I'm my calories are lower, you
know, getting ready for a competition.
I noticed more satiety in the absence of vegetables.
I think it's because my body is absorbing the proteins and fats
and better without the vegetables.
And I feel like I'm probably having less of a glucose
response from the vegetables, but It's not going to be a
drastic, you know, Spike or drop, you know with most
vegetables, but that's just something I've personally
noticed. Yeah, and I think you're right
to, so, if I'm eating a lot of protein, it's sort of like the
fiber, and the roughage can take up, space in your stomach and
make you feel temporarily full more like that physical full.
But when you get a lot of protein and fat which are, you
know, we know that they're the most satiating macronutrients
and like, you can't really over, eat protein and a meal.
Like, when you have that satiety, It cut off.
I think that I feel more satiated as well.
I think that sometimes perhaps the this, like pattern of eating
that we might have like, taken from where we came from, maybe
like the standard American diet or something like wanting to
have something crunchy, or wanting to have something sweet.
At the end of a meal. We might feel like, something's
missing. But in terms of actual satiety
and fullness, we might be fully full.
Yeah. Yeah, what's been your deep dive
into digestion lately. You said you're talking, you're
kind of leaning more towards then, learn more about that.
Yeah. Yeah.
So when I went to nutritional therapy school, the thing that I
was most Blown Away with was digestion and I think that a lot
of people, what I see happen is that, you know, first of all,
I'll tell someone. Oh, you know what, I think you
need to look at digestion. They're like, oh no, my desk
digestions fine. I take a probiotic and it Goes
to show like how little we know about digestion.
I used to think that Justin was just this, like, on-and-off
switch, like you eat, you digest.
It comes out. Like, almost like a blender, you
know, like you put it in, you blend it and then you pour it
out. Like, that's how I saw it
digestion worked. But what I didn't know is that
there's so many factors that can impact digestion, and we need to
think about it, like this north-to-south process.
So, first off, we need to be in a parasympathetic state in order
to digest when we're in a sympathetic fight, or flight,
stay our He stops producing stomach acid.
It stops producing saliva, bile. It stops peristalsis in the
intestines. So we need to be in this column
rested State. And most of us, myself included,
do not chew enough chewing actually activates the
parasympathetic nervous system, which is helpful.
We also need to be sitting, I used to be the queen of standing
and eating. So we need to sit rest, chew our
food really, really well in order to start activating.
All of the processes and the liquids, and digestive enzymes
and things that we need to actually break down the food.
We are so disconnected from digestion that we don't realize
that all the nutrients that our body needs.
We need to extract them from the foods that were eating.
So we don't run on steak, we run on the amino acids and the zinc,
and the minerals, and the vitamins that are in the state.
Great. So we need to think, okay.
I need to take this hunk of me and break it down into these
microscopic particles that Body can absorb and utilize.
So that's really what I talk about when I'm saying digestion.
So we're talking about the breaking down and absorption of
food. So when we think about it in
that context, like I said, we need to be a sympathetic then we
need to have sufficient stomach acid.
So I see a lot and people who are starting to do a lower carb
diet that they always have these digestive issues when they start
keto, how often have you heard like, oh now I'm constipated
now. Food is running right through
me. I try to change my diet, but I
just it can't even look at me anymore.
I don't have a gallbladder or I have gallbladder issues.
So a lot of these things come up and they come from this poor.
When we have a bad diet growing up which most of us have had
because that's the food that they're selling us and telling
us we need to eat, right? So it's no one's fault, but we
come to this having broken digestive systems.
So we're not in in rest and digest were eating on the go.
We're eating really fast. We're not chewing and then we
don't have enough stomach. So when we don't have enough
stomach acid, we might have a loss of a taste for meat food.
Feels like it's it's like a stomach, a rock in your stomach.
You might have burping gas or bloating like about an within an
hour after eating. I know that, my tell, if I
haven't supported my stomach acid enough, is that I'll start
burping, I'm like, oh no, I forgot to take my HCL.
And then, we also can have bits of undigested food in our stool.
We might have fingernails that chip and peel.
And break easily. We might have a loss of a taste
for breakfast. We might not be hungry in the
morning. We might feel better.
If we don't eat, we might get heartburn.
So heartburn and indigestion is often a sign of to little
stomach acid, not too much and then same thing, sort of
lumping, the pancreatic enzymes in there.
If we don't have enough stomach acid.
It doesn't trigger the pancreas to produce all the enzymes that
the pancreas produces. Also, if we have this blood
sugar that's super out of control.
And we are always needing so much insulin.
Pancreas is an organ that produces hormones, but also
these digestive enzymes and so it might be too fatigued and run
down to or not have enough, you know, nutrients to be able to
produce all these enzymes. So then we get further lack of
absorption. And the biggest problem with no
stomach acid is that we need stomach acid to activate this
enzyme in our stomach called pepsin.
And pepsin, is job, is to break down proteins.
It couldn't be activated all the time because we are made of
protein and it would be Ting us. So, we need the stomach to
become acidic enough to turn on protein digestion.
And so, it's a really big problem.
We see a lot of people struggling with like depression
anxiety. How many vegans are depressed?
Because they don't have enough protein, right?
But this can also happen with people who eat meat because they
are not properly breaking down their food and you also need
stomach acid to absorb B12 and iron and minerals and we also
need the B12. The zinc to produce stomach
acid. So sometimes we need some
supplements, sort of, as a bridge to help us.
We also need to be hydrated for that and then we can go into the
gallbladder. I mean, so many people.
If you've ever been on a low fat diet, a vegan diet or a standard
American diet, where we're getting crappy oils.
You probably have some level of gall, bladder dysfunction
because bile is a substance that is produced in the liver to help
us emulsify fats and it needs, it gets recycled.
So if we're not using it because we're not eating a lot of fat
like in the 80s and 90s the bile gets thick and sluggish and then
it can't do. Its job of Thoroughly, you know
being squirt out like a big clump of dish soap that and I
think about bio like that and so we're not getting we might get
gallbladder attacks. We might have stools that are
greasy and shiny. They might float.
They might be clay-colored or green colored.
So those are signs of some gall bladder dysfunction.
Also a headache, above your eye, having you.
Meals running right through you. If you eat a high fat or greasy
meal or chronic constipation again, so, if you're noticing
that, you're adding in higher fat and protein foods, and all
of a sudden, you're just not digesting.
Well, it could be because of these areas of digestion are not
up to par. So that's where nutritional
therapy comes in to help support those organs of breaking down
and then we absorbed in the small intestine.
So that needs to be everything needs to be well, broken down
before it gets to the small intestine.
Or else we got like a chunk of steak in there.
It's got bacteria on it because the, the stomach acid didn't
disinfected properly. It's shaving down all the Cilia
in there, which absorb nutrients because it's too inflammatory.
The body was expecting, an amino acid, not a hunk of steak.
And then this leads to inflammation in the gut, it
leads to the, in the Integrity of the gut wall is compromised
now and it starts to become leaky.
And then we have leaky gut, we get developed more food
sensitivities, and we have reduced nutrient absorption and
then all of this will have a negative.
Impact. Or if we get it, right, it will
have a positive impact on our gut bacteria in the large
intestine. And that's where the probiotic
comes in. So, as you can see, there's so
much that can happen and has to happen before we get to the
large intestine, that a probiotic, is just helping the
last thing in the chain. And so, we really want to focus
on optimizing those steps of digestion because that can
really help to improve the bacterial balance of the gut.
So that was my crash course on digestion.
No. No, this is great.
I mean so many people just Throw caution to the wind and they
don't really give digestion and proper absorption.
The credits do like, a lot of people make the mistake of
they'll have, you know, some acid reflux.
Or they'll have no, they'll be, they'll be belching.
That's just him. Okay.
I've got too much ass and they'll take an antacid like a
Tums or something. That was probably the exact
opposite of what they need to be doing.
So for people that are experiencing this, what's a
pretty good quick fix like take some HDL tablets and maybe some
some bile salts into their His own production kind of up,
regulates what you recommend there.
So, you know, I have to be careful with recommending, you
know, HCL because there are quite a few contradiction
contraindications for it. So, if you do have ulcers, there
certain medications, you know, you want to be really careful
with dosing HCL, and I would really work with a practitioner
to help you find your dose. But HCL could be great,
digestive enzymes and then certain files support.
So, there are certain nutrients and supplements that help.
Help to support the gallbladder. If you don't have a gallbladder,
you will want to take replacement like bile salts or
bile acids or Ox bile to help replace what you don't have
anymore. But taking that if you have a
gallbladder taken that initially can be helpful, but you don't
want to take it long term because it can actually down
regulate your own production of bile, but that can be helpful.
So, sitting down chewing your meals taking deep breaths,
getting and rest and digest some apple cider vinegar before.
Meals, can be really, really helpful because that can has a
three-fold benefit. I love when things have multi
benefits. So, it helps to increase stomach
acid and helps to increase bile output and also helps to reduce
blood sugar spikes at meals. So, I feel like, I should
personally be sponsored by apple cider vinegar, but they are,
it's really great to add that. And then some digestive enzymes
and, you know, working with the practitioner to find what area
you need support with and then some Healing nutrients for the
small intestine and then anything for the large
intestine, we really need to do some testing to figure out, but
you can do a lot of work up in the areas above, to get a lot of
resolution of some of these digestive issues in the large
intestine. What's the dosage you recommend
on the apple cider vinegar? Just like a shot of it.
Yeah. So usually like a tablespoon and
a little bit of water and a pinch of cinnamon, really helps
with the taste so that could be helpful work your way up.
Some people don't tolerate apple cider vinegar there.
I tried it and I had to run to the bathroom.
It wasn't pretty. So you can start with smaller
and smaller amounts. See if you can increase to that.
But if you just don't tolerate, it, don't push through that.
Just wanted to announce that. Yeah, no totally makes sense.
Well, what's in the pipeline for you?
What do you have coming? That's new and exciting.
What do you stoked about? So, I mean your I mean, you've
got a crash course on digestion and blood sugar regulation for
sure. But like, what are you focusing?
Your attention on going forward? Yeah, some actually in the
middle of creating a course called optimized your digestion.
Even for low carb diets, so I'm hoping to have that out by June.
We'll see how my quarter goes but that is something that I'm
really really excited about because I feel like that's not
talked about enough in this space.
We're all eating a ton of fat and protein and if we can't
digest it, it's a way to really unlock so much of the benefit
from this diet when so many people are having these stalls
and eating these foods that they they're they're supposed to eat,
but then they're forced back to eating carbs because it's the
only thing that they can digest. And that It's my heart because
it's causing a lot of issues, you know, collateral issues.
So I have the optimize your digestion course coming out.
My signature course, is blood sugar Mastery, and that's an
eight week program. The next round again is in the
summer right now. We're going through the course
and there is a whole module on digestion.
It's module 2 because that's how important it is to really get
this right at the beginning. And that is a really
transformative course that walks through all different areas of
blood sugar regulation. We look at sea GM's and and help
you sort of interpret the data there's coaching and then I'm
going to be talking at Kita, akan with you.
You're going to be there too. Yeah.
I mean, I don't think we've ever met in person.
Having have you been at you to calm down.
I have never been to any convention.
So I became a nutritional therapist, pretty recently, and
I quit. My retired from speech therapy
in late, 2020. So, I'm pretty new to this whole
Space because You know, I had to work my way out of a job and be
able to, you know, support myself as an entrepreneur.
So I haven't been to any conventions and I started in the
height of covid. So I haven't been able to go
anywhere. So I'm actually going to be
going to paleo effects in a few weeks, which I'm really excited
about because I've been wanting to go to that since 2013 since I
started doing paleo. And so I'm really excited to
meet people in person and and you know experience the world in
in Vivo. Go as opposed to Via Zoom, which
has been my entire experience. Yeah, I mean the conferences are
like a whole nother ballgame. I mean zooms, great.
Like we're able to talk right now being in different parts of
the US, but I mean the conferences.
Like you leave those conferences, especially when
Aikido Khan, and you just like, you feel the aura, that all that
energy and Vibe puts off. And it's like, you can't help
but know that. Okay, whatever's going on here.
It's working and people are better for it.
I feel confident that I'm part of this.
Like, you feel About where you spend your time and efforts for
sure, so it's definitely worthwhile.
Yeah, I feel elevated just thinking about it.
And I know that it's going to be.
So transformative, just to be in person, with all these people
who, you know, meet people in real life.
I've seen who I've admired through, you know, throughout my
time in the space and, and to meet people whose lives that my
information has helped and it's it'll just be so great sort of
putting it in person because, you know, working from home by
myself. Elf, you know, doing my thing.
It's great to have the internet as a source of connection, but
there's I'm nothing like being in person.
So I'm really excited for that hundred percent and the people.
I mean, the people that you connect with like the network,
they're all good. People like you and I got in
contact through Rachel, right? Yeah.
I'm I was meeting Rachel through
our podcast. We both interviewed each other
on our podcasts and we're like the same person.
It's so funny that you could just meet people and you have
this instant connection. And it's like, you just, you
know, I feel sometimes like the weird one out in my group of
friends, like, where I am in my real life, like, in my family.
I do things differently from everybody.
Like I'm sitting there with my castor oil pack and my blue
light blocker glasses on and I'm like, I want to go home and go
to bed, you know at 8 p.m. And people are like, okay you're
weird and you know, you're different and then you go to
these conferences and you're like, oh, these are my people
and you meet people online who are doing the same things you're
doing. Doing or just believe what you
believe and it's really nice to feel that you're a part of
something and that you're not. So the rainbow sheep, you know,
100%. I feel like having that sense of
community. That's why I've been so proud to
be a part of this community because by and large,
everybody's in it. For the right reasons.
They're all good people and you just like feel you, feel that
connection. So, you're in the right, you're
in the right group, for sure. Yeah.
One more time. Where do people go to to find
out more about you? What's the name of that Mastery
course, so, Mike. His blood sugar Mastery and then
the upcoming one. It's going to be an online
program. That one is optimize your
digestion for low carb diets. I do have waitlist for that.
You can find me on Instagram, Danielle Hamilton health.com
know Danielle Hamilton Health and my website is Danielle
Hamilton, help.com. So pretty much, you can find me
if you type in those three words.
Awesome. Awesome, Daniel.
I will certainly link out to your site.
The course your social, I think you and I've got a podcast on
yours coming up like - right. Yep, I unlock the shackles
podcast. That's my podcast.
Awesome. Awesome.
We will be talking and just a few days then.
Yeah, sounds good. I'm excited to chat again in
here. Hear your side.
Yeah. Well, thanks so much for taking
the time, always a pleasure. There's ever anything I can do
for you. Definitely.
Just let me know. All right.
Thank you. Take care.