Hello, ladies and gents Roberts. Alex Quito Savage.com today.
I have special guests minnow handsome on on the line.
And I am super excited fail to listen this episode because we
covered a variety of topics that I have most interest and respect
for. And he is, he is one individual
who has done some incredible work in the training space and
the nutrition space. He takes a very data-driven
scientific evidence-based, approach towards the content
that he produces, and I totally agree with everything that.
He said, on today's episode, we talked quite a bit about the
best ways to build muscle, especially, for a seasoned
athlete. We talked about nutrition in
regards to different macronutrient manipulations.
How having a higher fat approach can be incredibly conducive to
maintaining healthy hormone levels, especially in the
context of a competition prep or lean, you know, physique someone
that's gone through a deficit and is trying to lose as much
body fat as possible in a healthy manner.
A topic that I'm very passionate about and we talked quite a bit
about Don't reverse dieting going through a building and
cutting phase and all the benefits that come along with
that, and we also talked a little about his traveling and
his new book, he has lived in over 50 countries and he has
just released a book. All about the psychology of
success. Honestly, how did create habits
and routines that lead to successful outcomes.
So I thoroughly thoroughly enjoyed the podcast.
I've got a most respect for him and what he is doing.
I have no doubt that you will leave this conversation, having
taking something actionable from.
It so that for their Doom, sit back, relax, enjoy the podcast
with no hands woman. We are live me know, how are you
sir? Good Splash Beyond show a
pleasure to have you, man. I've I've been following your
work for a while. You've done a really good job at
just, you know, your content is in multiple different languages
and covers a very broad scope. So I feel like you've done a
pretty good job from a marketing standpoint.
I getting your message out there.
Yeah, I like to minute. It's not it's not super broad
scope. It's mainly that I don't have
the interest of most people have for, you know, a lot of people
actually know a lot of things, but I think they're not very
diligent in how they absorb information, you know, they
watch the news a lot, you watch, maybe, soccer, maybe they know,
all the players and football teams, and the history of the
world cup, and who fought through and who won and how many
medals every team has all those things that's actually, Of
knowledge but it's not knowledge that most people can use
professionally. Whereas I'm very focused on
certain things which are mostly Health productivity,
self-improvement related and I really focus on those things,
which makes me seem generally very knowledgeable, but when I'm
outside of my areas of expertise actually know very little.
So I actually do very poorly for example, at games of trivia.
I think that's good though, man. I feel like, there's so many
people that have they go too wide and not deep enough on a
given topic. Pick.
So it's always admirable in my mind to see someone that goes,
incredibly deep on a given topic and it just has a wealth of
information or knowledge on that subject matter.
I think so, I like that. And I think it, it's good to
always improve and Direction. That's actually competence is
one of the main drivers of intrinsic motivation so it
definitely works for me. Totally, what how'd you get into
Fitness and Nutrition? The first place man I did some
reading on you in your background is in business.
What was the transition from that to health and nutrition?
Why always been Fitness? I tried every sports that was
available in my area as a kid. I was really into gymnastics.
I did a whole bunch of sports and it was more.
The career site was more to think that my parents wanted off
me and Society sort of expected of me, rather than I was what I
was really passionate about. So there's basically been sort
of gravitation of my career more towards, or The worst
mathematics, which is what I'm good at and more towards things
that I really enjoy, like Fitness.
So, it's more a convergence. Now, also not a published my
book and everything. It's the it finally things are
coming together a bit on psychology and statistics and
fitness. But before that, it was more,
that there was sort of the business sides and my job as a
business consultant and what I studied on the one hand and
fitness was purely basically a hobby and only when I started
working, In for myself and set up my own company start writing
about Fitness. That, that became my job.
Did it take a while for you to gain some traction and momentum,
after you made that switch to making Fitness Nutrition, your
career path, or like, for people like your family, for instance,
your parents, you push you towards the corporate route.
That they all think you were crazy in the beginning.
Yes. Yes, they did.
It took a long time actually for a lot of people to accept my
career switch because it wasn't as, you know, prestigious and
traditional as typical careers of business consultant or lawyer
or something but that definitely never stopped me.
And in terms of the audience like reaching people that
actually went really fast because the very first article,
I wrote was published on T Nation and that was the time
when T Nation was still the platform.
Every big offer published on teenage fashion.
And as soon as I have an article there, I had like 40 thousand
readers and I quickly scrambled up a website and things went
very quickly from their people started asking me for coaching,
that was not even something I plan to do.
I just started writing first and coaching is something that just
sort of happened and that went really well.
And then I started getting Word of Mouth advertising from from
Plants and Things It's just went off, took off really fast from
there, so I was really fortunate in that regard.
Awesome, awesome. What's been the biggest headache
or frustration I guess in creating content writing content
in the fitness space? Because the fitness space is
very, you've got a lot of really loyal followers across all
different kinds of you know, Scopes and topic matter.
But it seems like there's so much division in the fitness
space as well because people fall into these dogmatic groups
and cliques and you know Is better than everyone else is
way. So it's hard to really navigate
those Waters. It seems yeah, the thing for me
is that very valuable lesson. I learned studying economics, is
that these things happen in every field.
Like economists, are some of the smartest people on the planet?
You have very smart mathematicians that work on
these models and come up with these amazing theories.
But, even in that field, there is still a very widely held
belief. And basically, the fundamental
all traditional economic models is that people are fully
rational, and Clearly, people are not like ask any
psychologist. Ask any person.
People are not fully rational, people are not robots.
It should they should be almost self-evident almost axiomatic.
But Economist would say, well, you know, they kind of notice,
but they still think it's sort of the models work best as if
people are rational. But clearly they don't.
And that's basically the field of Behavioral economics, which,
what, I studied this it makes these models more realistic by
me. Kingdom predict things about how
people actually act and think rather than how a perfectly
rational robots basically makes decisions.
So that it the models actually work and they're not just
theoretical exercises. But the thing is that in such a
field I could still see that there are these huge dogmas and
things that are regarded as controversial that are basically
self-evident. So when I came into fitness, I
was, I was very well prepared for these kind of things and
It's Fitness is a bit more mainstream field and when you're
publishing to the public at large, of course there is you're
reaching the whole population and you have to tailor your
message for that. But I think I've been relatively
successful at making. Sure things are both
understandable for Lay individuals, and also
sufficiently in depth for the more art for crowd to
scientists. I think it was Einstein who set?
That's, it's only when you can explain something in very simple
terms. That you really understand it.
Well, otherwise, you're just, you know, trying to sound smart
to other people, that are smart. Totally when you're going
through and conducting a study or researching a given topic
matter, what's, what does that work flow?
Look like, like, do you just see a lot of controversial
discussion around a given matter and then decide, that's what
you're going to dive into and then pull up all the research on
it or how does that work flow tend to pan out.
Very organic. It's very different for every
project I have tons and tons of notes.
So my computer, many of which I've properly I don't even know
they're there anymore and probably lots of notes.
I had even won't end up revisiting at any point but it's
a it's a very organic process. I just I do lots of research,
lots of reading and sometimes something strikes, my fancy, a
certain topic and then I research it in great detail
these days. It's more updating of beliefs
because, you know, I've covered The groundwork of all the major
topics in major detail. In fact, one is sometimes when I
read my old BT course materials. I learn something new because of
how extensive it is. So these days is very different
than it was. I think think that that
separated me at the time from from others and the
evidence-based Fitness industry. And what people thought was
appealing about my Approach is that I didn't have a background
in Fitness. So I basically just I saw a
topic. I knew that I read a lot of
things about Fitness, I knew what kind of topics were sort of
hot and those topics. I studied in lots of detail and
I basically just said, okay I don't care what anybody thinks.
I'm just this is the research question.
I'm just going to look at the research and I'm going to ignore
the 20 years of, you know, bro, lower and traditional wisdom
about this and go to experience, just going to look at what the
research has. And that's what I'm going to
write and articles, like about stretching protein intake, they
were usually controversial, but Actually not controversial at
all. When you looked at the research
that was relatively widespread consensus and those articles
were extremely successful because of exactly that
approach, that I just looked at the data and I ignored all the
things that people have been saying for very long times.
Do you find much of a, like a roadblock, I guess you could say
with the communities in, you know, you publishing
evidence-based, research, and people finding that that is not
necessarily as applicable to people.
People in everyday life. For instance, there seems to be
a lot of division in nutritional circles because people will
Point towards, you know, wrap models or very short-term
studies that indicate you know a bias.
Possibly that's just not really applicable to people with their
normal life styles and, you know, day-to-day routines.
So it would be very hard to replicate that in actual life.
So a lot of people lean more. So on what is tried and true
based off of what people have been doing and seeing success
with four years. More so than what the science
itself points to Now, I think there are two topics here.
One is adherence. So, there are a lot of things
that are fear, ethically, optimal but practically
difficult. So you see that people don't
really end up implementing these things or they're just not worth
the effort. So then it's more a matter of
looking at often dye adherence and cost benefit.
But that's diverted that's different from the actual
science and science. Basically, says you give you
facts about how the world is and then you have to make decisions
in terms of Implementing those facts are weighing that evidence
into calls benefits to make personal decisions.
So I don't think science is separated from the fact you just
have to basically you have to have practical sense as well as
the scientific knowledge and the other.
The other question is, if the the basically the state of the
research and people that simply aren't persuaded by science and
my approach to that is very much.
I just don't write for those people.
So there A lot of people who if you tell them their scientific
evidence on the topic, they simply don't value scientific
evidence. Like they, they don't believe in
scientific methods or whatever and they just don't care.
And those people, I found, I think it's a trap to try to
convince those people and rather you should just aim at
convincing. The people that are open to
these things and these IDs and then other people follow a
marketing term. It is a sort of a top-down
approach where you first your reach, the experts and you
establish a consensus and then basically when all the experts
starts start agreeing on something then people down down
the chain that just listen to opinions rather than scientific
evidence. They will follow.
I like that. I feel like it.
Did he run yourself ragged trying to appeal to a
demographic that doesn't even you know, put any stock in the
scientific research. So no sense in writing to that
demographic in the first place. Yeah, you can spend hours
debating someone on Facebook and then still not convinced that
one person and then you've just accumulated a lot of headache
and heartache often trying to been successfully.
Convince one person. When you could have spent that
time, productively talking to the Thousands of people are many
more that are willing to listen to your message.
Totally, I'd love to kind of dive into some of these findings
that you've had over the years. I don't want to I mean I'm
assuming you have time to dive into everything that you've that
you've discovered but let's just pick like a couple from both the
training standpoint and also nutritional standpoint of topics
that you personally have found a lot of interesting or mainstream
society would not necessarily know because it's not in line
with the broll or that's passed down generation from generation.
So, let's start with some training aspects.
First, what are some things that you've discovered that
mainstream Society probably isn't aware of It depends on
what you mean by the mainstream. I think one very big one.
Still that if you if you go really mainstream as the
benefits of strength training, I recently wrote a detailed post
which is a topic that I've written about few times.
Before that strength, training per minutes of exercise is
actually better for fat loss and cardio.
And that's something that it's not just equal.
It's actually better in the long term.
And there's very convincing evidence showing this for
Numerous reasons that basically exercise strengthening is a long
term investment into your energy.
Expenditure not just a cute energy expenditure.
It also prevents muscle. Also, you can build muscle,
which helps you expend. More energy is better for
society regulation. It does not suffer from
constraint energy expenditure so it has a lot of advantages in
the acute energy. Expenditure differences not
nearly as large as most people like to think because many
people associate sweating and fatigue with energy expenditure
rather than just going by the data basically.
So I think that that's a topic that if you grow really
mainstream is definitely underrated and for women in
particular, they're still so much bad information for for
women that want to get a nice physique and most of them
objectively. If you look at like if you give
them pictures and show them what kind of physique day.
They want then strength training is very often, the best way to
achieve that physique. Maybe not full body but you
know, many these days are many girls that like to train bikini
Our Lord Wellness division kind of physique, but at least trying
to lower body groups in particular, Dells, we're
strengthening and using playing doubles and standing on
treadmills. Not going to give you a physique
like that. Yeah.
Then if you go learning, here is just part of me there.
The cardio is just like when I'm doing a competition prep for
instance. So many people are so quick to
assume that you have to be doing endless hours of steady state
low intensity cardio. And I try to keep my my actual
cardio at an absolute minimum and it kind of use it as a
Minimum viable do so to speak and focus.
Most of, my time effort, energy on the resistance training.
I feel like that's like you said something that most people
mainstream aren't really aware of, but you get a lot more bang
for your buck with the heavy resistance training.
Definitely, I'd say that by my summary review on cardio is also
a last resort, not the primary mode of fat loss, the cliches of
ABS. That's one of that's something,
she ate. There are actually true, like,
abs are made in the kitchen. And what's the?
Oh yeah, you can't out train a bad diet.
Those are very, very true. Totally, what about the concept
of the simple concept of just building muscle in its entirety
like is it mostly just Progressive overload or there's
some other hidden Concepts that you've uncovered is is
Progressive overload. The underlying Foundation to
adding additional lean mass to your frame.
Yeah. That mechanisms of muscle growth
are very interesting topic that had a bit of a pendulum like
development, which is throw you often see four topics where the
research kind of swings in two directions and then especially
the media completely changes their opinion on something.
And in the end, we kind of gravitate towards the middle,
but in this case, they're long been research that mechanical
tension is the primary driver of muscle growth.
And I think from what I've seen, I'm a digital Nomad, so I have
In over 50 countries. And if you look at like how
people intuitively train, it's actually the same everywhere,
like how to browse train in Vietnam, or in Hong Kong, or
India, or Brazil or us or the Netherlands is all basically the
same. And that goes to show that there
must be something kind of intuitive behind it, right?
It's not like, well, either is just, that's clearly what.
Fast and everyone has found what's best.
But I think what's happening is that most people could you put
someone in the gym and you don't have scientific evidence.
Well what do you know the process of muscle growth is very
hard to measure. It's a slow process, it takes
months. It can take a year before you,
you know, put on such an amount of muscle that you can clearly
do that. Someone else can see your way
bigger especially when it's confounded by fat loss and
everything. So you don't really have a cute
feedback. Well what do you have?
You have feelings? Well, you feel stretch to some
extent and in particular the pump and burn, those are things
you really feel, you feel it, and in the muscle that you're
training. So people get this idea that.
Well, there's something going on there and then if it gets sore
afterwards, you know, that must be good, right?
Because at least it's feedback, it's something.
So I think people intuitively lean very heavily on these
Sensations. These feelings that they have
because there are things that they can first-hand witness in
themselves as the only things they have.
If so that was later essentially rationalized into mechanisms of
metabolic stress and muscle damage and basically, all
subsequent research, has found that these mechanisms are
trivial if at all contributors to muscle growth and the
original direction of mechanical tension is basically stayed,
intact is just mechanical tension that drives muscle
growth. And even things that seem to be
supportive of metabolic stress such as Blood Flow Restriction,
research, actually research finds that Also caused by
mechanical tension, for example, not some more Blood Flow.
Restriction exercise also works for non-included Limbs and
that's something that completely blows the idea of the water that
it's the metabolic stress from the occluded from blood flow
conclusion. That increases the muscle growth
in that area. And what happens is, basically,
you're just making the exercise harder and that causes an
increase in muscle activity and muscle activity means mechanical
tension. So in the end, it's still the
mechanical tension on the muscle fibers, that's driving the I'm
Grove. So if it is definitely an area
where there's been a huge disconnect between sort of the
dubrow's field and research. Yeah, definitely.
So with someone that's for instance, more of a seasoned
lifter, they've subjected at Mike to those stressors.
Their body is adapted to that stressor, what's going to be the
best way for that. Advanced lifter to continue to
add growth to their frame Beyond just the simple aspect of
mechanical tension, like as there, some specific techniques
and practices that you found to be Credibly effective.
A few. It's basically the culmination
of all factors in a training program, like your rest
intervals, your exercise, order your training volume, but the
big ones are really, you have to train, sufficiently heart.
Sufficiently close to failure because then every set you reach
all the motor units. You, you basically recruit all
the muscle fibers, And you have to do that for a sufficient,
number of cents to get a sufficient number of total
volume. And then ideally with with
energy Surplus to fuel the process of muscle growth, even
further. And then over time you want to
increase that stress progressively.
But it's good to realize that Progressive overload itself is
not the cause of muscle. Growth is the measure thereof.
So, that's something that a lot of people think.
If you're implementing Progressive overload, that's why
your muscles grow. No, it's the fact that the fact
you can implement Progressive overload.
It means that you successfully rooooar.
Got the stronger, the last workout.
So if you do bench press on Tuesday and Friday, and Friday,
you're stronger. So now you can lift your, your
hrms 2.5 kg higher. That means that choose day's
work out what successful in stimulating an overload and
super compensation took place in between those workouts.
So it's more than measure that your program is working well,
rather than the cause they're off.
And I think it's very important to realize that distinction
because when people think of progressive overload as the
cause of the muscle growth, start doing all these things
like adding sets and density training and trying to, in many
ways, sort of make the training harder to force, or force a
progressive overload, but that's not the essence of rest of
overload. It's the measuring of the
measuring that. Getting stronger and therefore,
likely bigger. That's what you're doing.
And just forcing, it does not. Actually mean, there is
Progressive overload. Jackie, you can keep adding
sets, you could keep cutting your rest of the files, but if
you're not actually increasing your strength, we were just
accumulating more training density or just accumulating
more volume, which you may not even be able to recover from
that does not actually mean, you're getting bigger.
Mhm. Yeah.
I feel like, a lot of people get hung up on, like, volume, for
instance. You see a lot of broke, bro.
Lifters, putting all the emphasis on volume.
Umm and and they just assume that.
If you've increased volume that is in itself, all you need to do
and they don't really distinguish between if that
increased volume comes from added weight or added reps.
So from like a, an actionable standpoint, if someone's hitting
a plateau, for instance, on, you know, bench press.
What would be the not a lot of context here?
What would you recommend as a good first step towards moving
things and busting through that plateau?
Well, there are a few things you have to first, you have to sort
of diagnose the problem, for example, what I like to do in
particular is see if it's if it's just the bench press, or if
it's all exercises for the banks, for example, and you have
to evaluate what current trading volume is, in particular because
volume is definitely, it's a big one.
It's definitely not the end, all be all, but it's probably the
primary variable to the most influential one at least.
And you have to see, is it likely that I'm under training
or over training? Or is it just the fact that my
bench press is basically lift? This course, it's really close
to what I can realistically game and what kind of training
intensity I'm using. So if it's if it's just the
bench press you think the overall program is good?
Then some of the same techniques you can use our daily undulating
periodization and intensification just increasing
the training intensity while maintaining training.
Volume is a really good way to Spur continued.
Strength development and that allows you to keep monitoring
Progressive overload. And there's also some research
indicating that strength gains over the long run.
Might contribute to increased muscle growth, but even if it's
just, if it just trying to, you know, that's who doesn't want to
just be stronger. If it doesn't fit at least
doesn't hurt muscle growth. But if it's all muscles or
exercises for side effects, like it's also your flies are your
dumbbell bench press? Then it's likely.
That something in your total back training program needs to
be adjusted. Like maybe your volume needs to
go down or up or Maybe those exercises you're doing too late
in your workouts, because typically exercises, you do
later, especially if you've already trained those muscles
before and that workouts they progress last.
Well so basically you have to diagnose really what the extent
of the problem is and then fix that depending on what you
perceive to be. The most likely culprit, what
about training frequency? That's going to differ quite a
bit between natural athletes versus ones that are using
performance-enhancing drugs. Is there?
A general consensus as to how much a single muscle group
Should be trained and targeted in a given week for instance.
I'd say the consensus at least once per week and most likely at
least twice a week. As soon as someone is trained
like an untrained individuals once a week is sufficient.
But in trained individuals, most research Earth stores to
workouts per week being needed to maximize growth.
If not theoretically then at least practically because you
just can't fit enough productive volume in one session scatter.
Some research suggesting that there's a limit of potentially
as low as like 9 to 14. That's, it's not very direct
research, but around 10 sets, might be a sort of an upper
limit of what the body can really productively recover from
it. After that point it seems that
you're not really increasing the anabolic stimulus.
Think about he saying okay I get it you know we need to grow but
there's a limit to how much growth you can get in one
workout but there is not a limit to how much damage you can do.
It won't work out so that point you just accumulating excess
fatigue Without Really stimulating that much more
growth because theoretically you could Just look at it.
Like could you get super jacked by just doing one workout a
month and making it an absolutely insane?
Brutal workouts? No, of course not.
Right. So they're, they're just based
on that ground slow, you can logically conclude that there is
some form of upper limits. I'm actually a big proponents to
really maximize muscle growth of higher training frequencies.
I'm not a sort of the high frequency guy known for even
full body everyday kind of workouts and I think that can
work very well as long as you keep total volume and check and
then the big benefit is that your quality volume is really
high because you're basically, every time your training muscle
group, your it's fresh at least for that day.
So, you can do a lot more reps per set than if you would have
done. Say, W after leg presses.
If you do the squats first and the leg press is on a different
day. You can do many more apps or you
can lift heavier weights. For same amount of reps on both
exercises are all probably, especially the later, one squats
in this case. So if you do full body, like if
in this scenario of your full body, every single day, you're
doing much fewer different exercises for a given body part.
Uh, not necessarily fewer actual sizes, but less fewer sets per
exercise perception for sure. Otherwise, you know, you can
just I think it's a big trap of people decide do say upper lower
upper lower. And in the year, allows high
frequency training and then they just do the same workouts.
But now six times a week instead of four times, well, then
you're, you know, adding 50 percent training volume, and
that might be a bit too much. Gotcha, do you typically see
more division in the in the the training aspect of things are
more? So in the nutritional Realm,
We're all wobbly nutritional but both do but nutrition is simply
more hotly, debated in large part?
Probably because nutrition concerns everyone.
You know, people that do endurance, training people to do
Zumba dietitians, they all have an opinion on nutritional facts.
Well, everybody eats, right? So, everybody has an opinion on
that, logician all doctors these days have a, their own book
about nutrition even though they never studied it.
So I think nutrition is more controversial due to these.
This is more wide variety of views to come into it.
Look at strength training, you know, you have especially
serious strength training. You don't have that many fields,
you have the athlete, you have to borrow the stairs Olympic
weightlifters, bodybuilders and the recreational, trainees buzz,
you know, I think how much percentage of population figures
like 1/3 or show that's does goes to the gym.
Not nearly as much as people that are concerned with dieting
which I think is like 80% Plus The population they make sense.
I'd love to kind of dive into some of these different, you
know, beliefs when it comes to nutrition.
But first I'd love to just ask, what is the typical day of
eating? Look like for you, what type of
food do you typically gravitate to I'm currently bulking, which
means I don't go low card because it's simply impossible.
Find out, bulking in general, is becomes like, low-carb becomes
difficult. When the fats have to exceed
protein intake or at least keto becomes difficult like low carb.
Still very doable but Quito becomes tricky then up until
that point. I sometimes do ketogenic diets
and more low carb and definitely not a big proponent of high carb
or a lot. I'd say I'm a proponent of
high-fat if Fit into your Macros, it's not that I hate
scarce, but it's that, I like fights.
And I think that's our review in the Raiders for for many
purposes, including muscle growth areas.
Very interesting, new research or not, it's not so new.
But it's a lot of interesting research that fats actually have
an errant anabolic effects on muscle.
In a case, in the rule, by my current diet.
It's free meals a day. Sometimes I go up to 4, but,
mainly only, when I go to 4500 plus calories and pretty much
spread across the Dre, they with Painting session after the
second workout. This sort of training session is
sandwiched between about 25. Our intramural window Just A
good rule of thumb for nutrient timing.
Most of my calories are in the later part of the day especially
post-workout periods as really high protein in terms of well
moderate protein. I guess it's like I guess I'm
getting about a gram per pound. I generally recommend people get
at least one point eight grams per kilogram per day and don't
think there's much need for more in most cases and then the The
mix of think it's about forty percent fat.
Let's say Andres carbs, all right, so I definitely dive into
this because I'm kind of known as the high fat guy within the
the ketogenic Realms low-carb communities.
And I'd love to dive into what you finding about the anabolic
nature of that cherry fan, because there seems to be and
I'm sure you've picked up on this.
There's this, I mean, keto has grown in popularity quite a bit
over the years and as such the, the word ketogenic has been
bastardized over the past few years and is removed from what
it was, never originally intended to mean.
There's all these different You know, groups, now there's high
protein, low fat keto, which is kind of comical to me, but
there's all these different dietary groups and I'd love to
get your take on the importance of that GFI because I feel like
that is starting to get lost in in the in the chaos of speak.
Yeah it's funny because traditionally I think a lot of
body builders in particular I've decided up carbs are inherently
anabolic and fats are not. You see that very often in
people that really are not very Well, informed as say that's a
low carb diets. Testosterone levels are a big
concern, whereas, the research is very clear that high fat
diets are precisely what increases testosterone levels.
In fact, there was a study, finding a particularly strong
support for this. This was published, I think in
the past year where they found that the switch to a high fat
diets not necessarily keto, it was actually not much difference
between just high fat and keto resulted from from high carbon
before. I think they went from 15%
carbs, 20% maybe to lot sixty percent sixty and eighty.
I think where the numbers so really, I fats by my most honors
resulted in about a 33% increase in both Total and free
testosterone. So that's actually probably
clinically significant at least in a long, long run.
Like, there are some contrasting opinions on this.
Some people in an evidence based in Actually a lot of people
think just how strong those are relevant appear until the
physiological limits and I think that's that makes no sense.
Like there's just a dose response effect and the and the
physiological range that we is pretty arbitrary what we Define,
as sort of normal levels, it's more of a descriptive value of,
you know, four standard deviations across certain
average samples rather than some some, some magical numbers.
So think actually these things they should have an effect at
least over the very long run. Laughing steroid.
Like it will take many months, maybe even years for these
effects to fully manifest. And that's also what we see in
research and 3rd for example. But that's one one area of
anabolic effects of fat and the other is the more Direct effects
on protein synthesis and lean lean body mass accrual.
And we see that mostly on poly unsaturated fats and not just
your mega freeze. But seemingly all of us.
And there have been, I think about six studies, which
includes two randomized, controlled trials and for
Prospective studies, where they find that people that have more
of certain fats in our diets, gain more lean body mass.
So that's an untrained individuals unfortunately.
But that's, of course, very promising because if that also
applies to trained individuals, strength, training individuals,
and that would be huge. That would basically mean I fad
diets are superior for muscle growth and you said that was in
polyunsaturated fat. Yeah, mostly polyunsaturated
fats. There's one study.
I think it is from its using And all of us have certain compounds
in them, that may have effects in addition to just the fonts,
but most of the research is on profiles and omega-3 is, of
course, there's lots of research that they have anabolic effects.
What the hormonal effect is is get me incredibly interested
because you know when I compete for a bodybuilding show I've
done this you know with both a ketogenic prep protocol and a
traditional bro that in protocol and it's pretty common.
I mean the general mainstream approach towards prepping and
you know, all this is like, they'll keep protein incredibly
high and they'll drop fat down very low, with the intention of
preserving as much muscle mass as possible because they believe
that the high protein is very muscle sparing in the Next of
the caloric deficit, I've found that my ability to retain lean
mass has significantly Amplified by keeping dietary fat much,
much higher and making protein. A more manipulated variable.
I don't Advocate low protein by any means, but during the final,
you know, few weeks or month of a competition prep, when I am in
a very steep deficit by taking my protein down lower.
I don't notice any significant drop in lean mass or performance
and I think that's largely in part due to the fact that my
testosterone levels are much more stable.
Able as a result of the higher fat and I've done blood work
with both a traditional prep protocol and a ketogenic prep
protocol and my natural testosterone level.
Stay much more within a healthy range with the higher fat
approach. Yep, I think, especially the
basically, zero fat, traditional bodybuilding pouch is a big trap
for numerous reasons, testosterone levels being one of
them. I also find that my female
competitors retain their menstrual cycle longer when they
are on sufficiently high fat diet and I think also for
appetite management, it's a trap to go zero fat because at first
it seems great like the first week maybe two weeks but
actually even a bit longer because you free up a lot of
calories and certainly you can Very high food volume but most
people I found that try this long term.
It kinda creeps up on you bu get an insane increase in appetite.
It's like you your you have this ravenous appetite is just
insatiable and it takes weeks to months to recover that after a
contest or a super low fat face enough spoken to many coaches
that have experienced this on both sides of the board.
We're both of, you know, high carb Proponents lokar,
proponents, where they say that, if you go really zero fast, then
bad things happen to your mood well-being and your appetite.
So, I think that it's definitely good to.
I'd also never go low protein as keep rotating at, basically, one
point, eight grams per kilogram per day minimum, but you could
argue for 1.6 based on the research but like 21.8 based on
lemons research, basically double standard deviation.
Added on top of that. And that's basically all you
need. So I think there's makes a lot
of sense to cut protein to that, level to the optimal level, when
you can fit use more fibrous carbs for satiety and try to
keep fats in there as long as possible.
Totally, totally green. This kind of flies in the face
of a lot of the people that are leaning heavily on the, you
know, calories in, calories out as being the one and only driver
for body recomposition. I feel like that maybe You a
much better argument in a population in which they're all
within a healthy body fat percentage, you know, in and
taking it and maintenance intake of food or their bounce.
But when you start really looking at the extreme ends of
the spectrum, like, in a competition prep, when you are
much lower on the body fat, you know, you really start having to
take things into account as to how these different
macronutrients impact, your Hormone, Health, or else, you're
really just going to be kind of screwing yourself so to speak.
Yeah, I think I think these effects become more more parents
for sure in countless prep in general in countless prep.
It's, it's very good experience to see when things start to
matter. Also, for appetite regulation of
stuff because things that may seem to work at other times
contest prep. Really puts you test test you to
your limits. So you really find what really
is sustainable and World works best.
I would say that protein and calorie intake of probably the
big factor when it comes to muscle mass retention.
Like even if you stay high fat, if you just crashed Your way to
a contest, you're going to be losing a lot of muscle, of
course, but I think fattest is definitely underrated for.
Is what's your take on one topic?
That I see a lot of people not really talking about, is the
importance of spending time in a caloric Surplus, reverse dieting
after a deficit and kind of letting things equalize and that
doesn't get near as much, you know, attention because it's not
as appealing to talk about. You know, talking about getting
shredded, you're talking about adding some body fat, what does
the research show in? Words to the significance of
that because I see so many people just chronically under
eating and I feel like they just are not aware of the benefits
that come with putting your body in a period of a surplus.
Yeah, I think that's a big mistake.
That's especially women. When they get up to say, the
intermediate level make is there.
They don't bulk and you can gain muscle pretty well, even an
energy deficit. If you are a novice trainee, if
you do things, well, even as an intermediate rainy.
But when you get to the truly Level if you just eat
maintenance or below, you're not going to be putting on any more
muscle, pretty much. In fact, you could basically say
that's almost the definition of an advanced trainee, I would
say, and you need to bulk at a point.
And especially if you do competitions, you need offseason
phases in between and basically, every successful competitor I've
talked to agrees with this. You just, you need to get out of
that, super low body, fat range, otherwise, you just at a minimum
you go crazy. And your appetites, your
menstrual cycle, these things are all massively deregulated,
you're just not a happy person. And I've also found that injury
rates are significantly higher and injuries that do occur
recover much lower So I think there's definitely a low limit
and you can even see this in blood work, you know, like a lot
of competitors especially if they do.
The zero fat approach, they're basically not just hyper going
at all. During that contest like they
have low testosterone levels but they're like a straight level.
Yeah testosterone levels so that is just gone there's nothing and
clearly that's not some an alibi like states to stay in four
months. Yeah.
And they don't think people realize how long it takes to
recover from that. Like when you when you go then
with a very, very More fat approach or low-fat approach to
the extent that you're cutting out.
Fish oil pills to make your fat macros, then, what's going to
happen long term with regard to your, your hormonal health is
going to put you in a very bad place to build any, any
significant muscle after that show.
And look better. The next time you step on stage
Definitely, especially if you were I think the the way people
sort of compensate for this sometimes is they basically
binge and they just gained a lot of fat very quickly but of
course that's not a desirable outcome either.
So it's it made that's made is more your body basically forcing
you to bulk. Even if it's just temporarily
and get you out of that super low body fat range.
Which for reference I'd say is say sup 10% sub?
Some men can stay like eight percent lean.
Chronically, but most find below 10% is getting difficult.
Is there a body fat percentage that you would see as being
optimal for being in a building phase like as their percent body
fat that that most people should kind of try to stick around?
If the primary goal is to add more lean mass I think so.
Yeah, I think I had a large debates about this with,
Rocco's, American wrestler, pretty good debates.
A few also to his, the contrarian stance on base, but I
think there are solid evidence, what basically, everyone agrees
on also in that debate that low body fat levels are detrimental
in part because of the pillow anabolic hormone levels and
anecdotal evidence. For this is pretty strong and
consistent, I don't know anyone who thinks you're staying.
Super shredded all the time. I'm is that the key to getting
jacked and I think there's also a very compelling evidence
that's being too high in body fat, like being overweight.
And especially when you look at obesity is also bad for muscle
growth. And you see this in various
lines of research, there's 41 anabolic resistance.
So you see less muscle protein synthesis in response to meals
and training training is a little mix, but at least two
meals. So you see pretty consistently
reduced, muscle protein synthesis in obese individuals,
compared to lean individuals. And there's also again, research
on normal levels, like obese individuals, especially men have
typically lower testosterone levels because fat Mass adipose
tissue aromatize has this fact or testosterone to estrogen, so
your ratio of testosterone to estrogen your male to female sex
hormone ratio becomes worse. That's also why sometimes obese
individual section of you gets leave it all problems.
Erection problems, gyno. So they get basically,
Formation. That's due to these hormonal
disruptions. And then we also have research
showing that the lease individuals generally have lower
recovery capacity, like that takes them longer to recover
from a given work out, then lean individuals.
And by the way, we also see this in very lean, at least in women,
we have one or two studies. Something to studies showing
that very lean women. Also recover slower after
workouts when they are basically, like anorexic level
lean. So if you combine all of these
lines of research with some other scans, Findings.
Like there's one very questionable, but somewhat
proof-of-concept study on rodents showing that high body
fat levels, a muscle growth directly.
I think it's, it's a pretty good idea, not to get too high in
body fat unless you have a very good reason, you know, if you're
a sumo wrestler or a powerlifter animal, needs to make a certain
weight class, then you can do it.
But I think for most individuals to stay lean, stay healthy lean
basically. The same range as is probably
optimal for your health. It's probably also best for her.
So rough and that's like for a male for instance, that would be
roughly. What do you think?
Like 12, 15 percent someone there.
No, that's pretty. That's pretty safe.
I'd say some men can go low. Like, I'd say, maybe seven to
Seventeen percent or so, like I'd work towards being a bit
leaner, because there's, there's just no reason to get close to
say 20%, I'd say as a man. So I were to work a little on
the lean side but around around 10%.
You know, that's a Target at most men shoot for and if you
still feel good and stuff at that point, I think that's
maintainable and probably also good.
And if we're women, you were roughly at about 10% of this
with the added caveat that women have less to fear from getting
up to high body fat levels. There's actually even some
research showing that it might benefit to start from levels.
And after Jen levels only start decreasing at a very high body
fat level. Because women have Superior
metabolic Health, compared to men in large part due to their
feminine body fat distribution. They will store as much in the
abdominal area which means that the fats they have is not That's
a rental and they don't suffer from the aromatization of
testosterone to estrogen to nearly the same extent as men.
So I find that women basically never get to the point where
they're they're booking to arts and because all women or most
women by far one to get lean. So it's almost never concerned
to get too high in body fat for women and it's more concerned.
Generally, I'd say that men try to build too hard, sometimes and
women sometimes try to stay to lean too much next row.
Sense, I think Discussion around the importance of having
building and cutting phases is so, so important.
And the hard thing is like certain markers of Health.
Like if you take a lipid panel, for instance, it's going to show
worse than if you're in a surplus and if you are in a
deficit so people just assume that they should always be in a
deficit but there's like a yin and yang so to speak that comes
with these different phases. And if you optimize for enduring
the building phase, you're going to have a much more productive
cutting phase and I feel like people need to view life.
If and, and this training cycle, and nutritional cycle through
this, you know, circular motion. So to speak in which you were
moving from one to the other and constantly, having a goal as
opposed to just chronically being in one or the other.
Definitely you need to find that balance.
I think a lot of people, they what happens at a certain point.
When they've gotten used to getting lean and they know how
to stay lean is what happens is. They they do successfully stay
lean, but it's interspersed with social media events binges
holidays, that make them have to cut it again.
And as a result, they spent a very large portion of the year
coming. Whereas for successful long-term
growth, I'd say that most people probably want to spend 75
percent or so of their time. Booking and only about a third
of the time. They spend bilking, should they
spend cutting? You shouldn't need more than
that if you lean both phases. So and optimal cut phases, then
you should spend the vast majority of the are bulking and
that's a win-win, right? Because you can eat more, you
feel better? Training goes better.
So you can basically Work Hard Play Hard during those phases,
and I use can still remain almost as lean.
I must say it's refreshing to talk to you because so many
people Don't know this and they don't implement it and like I'm
having to shout it from the rooftops.
You know, you got to spend more time in a building phase of
always try to tell people at least budget, like a three to
one ratio 3 time three times as much time, spent in a building
phase. So many people compete every
year even every six months, or so.
And if you're spending for six months, dieting down for a show,
and then a few months, reversing out of that to get to a normal
Baseline, you can't possibly be having a productive offseason.
So giving yourself that 75% time in the building phase is going
to be key. Regardless of the And how long
you've been training. I think that's just going to be
Paramount no matter what you're doing.
Definitely I think even these days if you have to Pro level
conditioning, if you do bodybuilding and stuff like
maybe have a bit more leeway with bikini wellness and type,
but if you really Pro level bodybuilding, then many contests
phase, many kinds of prayer phases.
Even if you start out pretty lean, end up being like six
months sometimes longer. So then yeah, that really
doesn't leave much time for successful muscle growth.
I do want to ask you, you said earlier that, you don't do.
Low carb packaging approach in a building phase is that more so
just preference. Like not able to get as many
calories in or what's the tip on it?
Purely practical, like I said, it's the the points becomes if
you want to stay key do but your fat intake is starts to exceed
your protein intake. Then you have to start consuming
like pure fat sources and that just, I find it needless
restrictive because I don't notice much difference between
high fat and key do so Also some research now showing that which
I think is fully mediated by the difficulty in consuming enough
food that people generally even when they intends to have the
same energy intake, they don't gain as much muscle on the key
to approaches, but that's because the Gita was basically
to effective at curbing their appetite and restricting their
energy intake. So when you look at the energy
intake, you see it, they just don't have the same energy and
sake. Hmm, which means that if you, if
you can do it, I think it's perfectly viable.
I don't think there's any problem with In Quito bilking,
but for a lot of people, it's just restrictive.
Catch? Yeah, that's what I do.
I do a keto bulking phase, but it's, you have to be very
intentional with the food you're eating for sure.
Because if you just allow yourself to eat intuitively, it
would be much harder to get enough calories and to be at a
significant Surplus. Yeah.
And it's also worth noting that I have a very adaptive
metabolism. So, my bulky phases are 44,000,
plus calories, sometimes going up to 5000 and, you know, that
that becomes. Difficult.
I don't drink. You know, there's only so much
for all of our like a stomach. Yeah, totally.
Have you, have you done any research on stearic acid?
Not really. That's a topic that that's
gaining a little bit of momentum here in the different ketogenic
circles for its, you know, supposed effects on basically,
making the fat cell themselves, more insulin sensitive or
insulin resistant. I believe is what the research
is showing but at the location of the fan.
So it's so. So I'm curious to dive more into
that, but I think that's still pretty, pretty new in
development there. Yeah, I'm generally generally
skeptical of those kind of theories because the thing with
these insulin, sensitivity theories, they generally haven't
panned out much. And also think if you are, if
you're already on a high fat diet and then your insulin
sensitivity should already be good, like you don't suffer from
carbon tolerance generally so does it make much sense to
really focus on like one specific type of fatty acid?
I think 40, Mega freeze, you do want to cover that with your W.
Overall fatty acid balances is healthy.
Then In pretty much all the beneficial fatty acids and it
might not be right. See, I have a hard time seeing
how you specifically want more of one of the others, you know,
if you're getting 40-plus, percent fat, intake from good
sources, Then I think you're gonna be pretty much covered.
Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense.
I'd love to kind of spend the last little bit here.
Talking about your book, man. You just publish that a few
weeks ago, right? Yep.
And just today, launched the ebooks ebook versions so that's
feedback. So far has been great.
So yeah, it's a bit more. It's not my usual or kind of
hardcore fat loss. Muscle growth topics.
It's about the science of self-control productivity, died,
adherence and motivation. And also how to make your
workouts best effortful. So it's a bit more brought
Scopes, it's all about the mindset.
I'm assuming which is pretty much the main, the main driving
factor for success with anything.
Yeah, I go into a lot of research on mindset and how to
think about things but I try to make it very concrete and
practical because honestly, I kind of the test most self-help
books, you know, the idea of where they just go into, they
don't really give you practical advice.
Like you read the whole book. And you think, okay?
That all make that It all made sense and sounds good, but what
am I really supposed to do differently?
So, I made sure that every chapter and actually the book is
called 50 free tips to improve your productivity that adapt.
So, I have 53 tips with a lot of sub tips.
So in the end, it's about 100 steps.
Probably there are really concrete like these are the
apps. I recommend for productivity
management. For example, or this is how I
recommend you set up your grocery list.
Like I go into these things and they actually matter you see in
research, this is how I recommend you.
Set up your to-do list. This is how I recommend you get
started on a project. So I think it's really important
to tell people exactly what they need to do because that the
concreteness and the specificity.
That's what most people act, like they know what to do.
Like quit smoking, doesn't help anyone.
But when you tell them exactly how to form implementation,
intentions to use nicotine gum. Those kind of things that
actually helps, I will definitely be getting this book,
then because I'm right there with you.
So many self-help books, you read one, you read them all and
and they're just not any actionable takeaways from it.
Remember I was when I first got in the business, I was reading
business books, left and right. They all seem to be pretty much
the same thing, same concept. And then I read the 4-Hour
workweek by Tim Ferriss. And there was just so many
actionable pieces of information that I could take with it and
just directly apply. So that kind of layout is much
more conducive to making, you know, improve and progress.
Any given field. I think I'd say my book is very
inspired by. Tim Ferriss work, especially the
4-Hour workweek. I think it's the more.
I mean, I'm More towards the evidence and stuff.
Bit more scientific Down to Earth but you can you can
definitely get a Tim Ferriss. Kind of vibe from my book.
I think in the sense that I discover a lot of Niche and
controversial topics but I also make sure to really give those
concrete tips writing style. Probably is also similar.
I have a bit less fluff in there a lot less probably but yeah,
I'm was a big fan. That's one of the reasons I
became a digital Nomad team first work.
Well, then I'm assuming you probably read his book or not
his book but his Recommended book vagabonding.
Yeah, it's a skin Freud, actually, it's all my reading
list, nice. But I've read so much on digital
Nomad again, stuff that kinda put off now by the by Decca
direction. Would, let me do you use
traveling frequently? Now, is that pretty much a
chapter in your life that is has moved on from that, you moved on
from my, what is the, what is the the drive to travel?
Like you have I think it's just nice to base my philosophy in
life is to have a lot of experiences and I think research
generally finds that people invest too much in material
goods and too little and experiences.
So it's a big philosophy part of my life and keep to herself,
improvements and maximal happiness.
But these days with coronavirus, have course, a bit a bit
different than normal. It's normally its.
Oh, where can I go and what kind of places do I still want to
visit? And now it's more.
Can I go? Mmm.
Yeah and well. We are exhibited them.
Currently in Sao Paulo Brazil, present go yep.
Going to stay here for about one more month than I'm probably
going to or I'll have speaking engagements in October in Miami
and then in the Netherlands in November and then maybe in Italy
later, of course, open and coronavirus pants.
So our to plan these days said he have a place that you call
home or is it pretty much wherever your hand is?
Yeah. It's I was I gonna say exactly
that wherever I lay my hat which I don't have by the way.
That's cool though man. I feel like so many people look
at traveling and Tim Ferriss is written by this extensively but
so many people view traveling as this, you know this lifestyle
for the ultra rich as he calls it and it's cool to realize that
people can have these experiences at a fraction of the
cost of they would assume and it's just I mean those
experiences are what life is all about.
So it's awesome to see you living that out.
They nothing. I think so.
I think it's as we nice. I'm think I'm really fortunate
to have to be able to live the life that I do know.
That's awesome man. Well, I considering have a hole
in the podcast for the about traveling, but I want to be
respectful of your time. So where can people go to find
out? More about you brother.
Matter when someone's.com, you'll find everything there
probably the best way. If you are new to my work is to
if you go to bed on someone's.com you'll find an
email subscribe button or better and some stuff come /.
Subscribe can also do that then you get a free email course.
You get sort of a tour of my most popular contents and I
think that people generally like the most you gotta get it all
delivered into your inbox. The nice introduction.
Awesome, awesome. Well, I will certainly link that
to that. I'll be personally purchasing
your book and reading that everything that you said thus
far today I'm in complete agreement to and you are very
fascinating individual. So I can't thank you enough for
taking the time to speak with me.
Thank you very much. My pleasure have a good one.