Well hello ladies and gents, Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com.
And today I've got special guest Louis Summerson on the line.
He and I actually met at the WNBF World's competition.
We shared the stage together which was an awesome experience
and then we met after the show as we were waiting for judges
feedback. We're waiting for like an hour,
hour and a half. So we got to talk and he is from
the UK but he lives in Dubai. He traveled there four worlds,
and we just kind of talked about nutrition, talked about
training, talked about what led to us competing at World.
So I kind of wanted to bring him back on the podcast or to the
podcast today to pick his brain in greater detail for Y'all to
listen to about what his prep strategy was like.
What are some mistakes he's made in the past as it pertains to
going through these building and cutting phases, the reverse diet
phase, and just talk about the sport of natural bodybuilding in
its totality? So I thoroughly enjoyed the
conversation. I've got a lot of respect for
Louis and what he's done to get to this level.
As a pro bodybuilder, I was honored to share the stage with
him and I was honored to have him on the podcast.
So without further delay, sit back, relax, enjoy the
conversation with Louis Summerson
and we are live. Louis, how are you brother?
I'm good, mate. How are you doing?
I'm good, man. I'm good.
Remind me where you're located. You're in Dubai half the time,
right? But that's not where you're from
originally. Yeah, so I'm from Cardiff in the
UK, but I've been living in Dubai for the last four years
now. Nice.
Yeah, I I met you for listener's sake.
I met you at the debut and BF World's competition.
We're both standing in line waiting to hear back from the
judges feedback, which they were super late in in getting to the
meeting. So you and I were just kind of
talking for quite some time. There's who were killing some
time, but I'm excited to chat with you man.
So you and I did the same show. You and I were in the same class
in Division, we're on stage at the same time.
So pretty cool. Yeah, definitely.
I mean, you didn't wait for the feedback, did you?
The judges feedback. No, I had a you left.
I had a meeting. We had reservations and they
were about to close. So I'm Boogie because they were
like an hour and a half late, weren't they?
Yeah, you didn't. You didn't miss much anyway like
I think yeah I said to you I mentioned to yourself that it
was the first time I was actually getting feedback at at
chose. But yeah, it was pretty much a
basic response from all like momos and everywhere, which we
probably expected seeing as we we we didn't come off as winners
on the day. So that's probably easy response
to kind of say to people but yeah, I guess it was it was good
to do anyway. Good to experience.
Yeah, And but yeah, we were we. Hope didn't mean to catch you
After what were you? Saying no.
Why did you say that? What did you say?
And for the listeners, I would recommend getting the judges
feedback for sure. The only reason I didn't that
time was because I had that prior obligation.
But then also I had gone to the feedback at every show prior to
that one and all the feedback has pretty much been the same,
which for me was just to put on more size.
So I knew that was probably what they were going to say anyways.
Yeah. But it's not, it's still kind of
nice to hear I guess even if it's, it's kind of along the
lines of what you're thinking. It's still, it's free, right.
And I mean the judges are taking the time out themselves to go
there. So I guess why not, Why not, Why
not do it. And and even if you just take
one thing from from 1 judge let's say, which I did actually
take a few things which are going to help me when I next
compete, whenever that whenever that's going to be.
When is that going to be, man? Do you have any competitions in
the pipeline? So initially like I said I was
going to when I when I'm was speaking to you at the feedback,
I said I'm going to do like a two year offseason potentially.
That was kind of the first four. And yeah, I've kind of, I've
definitely said like I'm going to be taking this year off 100%
because I I competed for the last two previous years.
So I haven't really had like a proper long offseason.
You know at the shows you kind of like go into like a recovery
phase for a for a while before you even start to be able to
pick momentum up. So like that takes a long time
anyway, doesn't it? So like for for for both
seasons, 3-4 months of doing that pushing somebody weight up
and then and then I would go kind of back into a prep phase
then or I'll be looking to go into prep phase.
So I definitely feel like I want to spend the whole year just
kind of not going into a deficit and then potentially like we'll
see how things go, see it, see how much progress I potentially
can make. I do plan to stay like
relatively lean throughout this phase which I've not.
I'm not actually done in previous like longer off
seasons. I'm not afraid that I kind of
push body weight up, but this time around I want to keep
things a little bit more tight just because like many different
benefits to that. But definitely, like I just want
to be able to see the progress that I'm making as well even if
it is like a small amount, you know so potentially potentially
competing at the end of what would it be 2025 potentially do
like a a late prep for late shows the end of 2025 is what is
what I'm thinking. I'd love to compete every year
mate, but obviously as we know, natural bodybuilding it's not
beneficial really for like to get if we, if we want to
definitely improve on our physique, we need that time away
from preps, don't we? And when you and I were talking
at the the feedback room there, you know, at the time the WNBF
federation had mandated that every competitor that had earned
their pro status compete every two years in order to maintain
their pro status. But then just about a month ago,
I guess now they changed that mandate.
So now as long as you keep up with your membership dues, you
don't have to compete every single year.
And for you being international, that stipulation was never in
place anyways. But for me, being domestic, they
had that two year requirement. So I'm super stoked because now
I can take off as much time as I want and I'll have that clock
ticking in the background trying to, you know, force me to
compete if I'm not ready yet. So I think that's a a massive
bonus. I don't have to worry about
stepping on stage every two years now.
Yeah. I mean it's like like like we
mentioned the international athletes didn't have that wasn't
an issue for us. We as long as we had kept our
pro status valid. But yeah for you guys now it's
it's just less less of a stress now where it doesn't kind of
force you into that constantly competing phases like you know
where like you said now it's just you can relax take time
which which ultimately like that should be the case anyway.
Like I don't I don't think in the in the the non tested shows
like the IFBB and that they don't I don't think they require
them to like compete every so often do they I think once
they've got their pro carding I think it's just pretty much they
can compete whenever and and and especially for us natural
bodybuilders who are not assisted even more reason for us
taking longer off seasons right. Like we need them them longer
because we haven't got the assistance of the of the drugs
side of things so So I I definitely think it was a it was
a good move from the from the WMBF and yeah one that like a
lot of you guys in the in the in the over in the US and stuff are
going to be a lot happy with and it's just going to make natural
bodybuilding better right. There's going to be better
athletes now coming to the stage each year because because of
that because of the longer offseasons and the less pressure
to compete all the time. Yeah. 100% agreement.
I feel like as a natural athlete specifically, you only benefit
from taking more time off in between competitions.
I mean, I don't know what your prep look like.
We'll dive into that, you know, in this conversation for sure.
But for me, I was dieting for 33 weeks by the time I stepped on
stage for Worlds, and I'm still reverse dieting now.
So this is 12 weeks post Worlds and I haven't even returned to
my baseline yet. So I mean that's that's like a
whole year right there. So if I'm spending a year in a
deficit in a reverse, then I'm not really going to have much
time to put on more lean tissue and look markedly better than
next time I step on stage, unless I do take a longer off
season. Yeah.
And it's it's funny because like we all want to be competing,
right? Like I I compete every every
other month if I could, if it was, if it if it was a benefit
for us. But like the sport that we're
in, it's not, it's not, it's just not feasible, is it?
It's not, It's not something that's going to be beneficial.
And like you said with the timeline for competing, it's not
just a case of like a three month prep and then you're good
to go. It's like you've got the pre
prep diet phase let's say, which you're going to be in a deficit
for so long depending on how how much body weight you're starting
from. And then and then once you
actually get to your first show, then you're doing maybe multiple
shows after that and then let's say when the end of the season
comes, but then you've got to, you've got to fix all them
problems that that you've put your body in that deep hole
throughout that phase and that takes time just to get out of
that. Like you said yourself, I I've
actually managed like you said, we're going to go into my preps
and stuff. But I I feel like I'm relatively
like out of the recovery phase. It's like it was actually
surprising how how quick I came out of this phase because I've
done multiple preps similar to yourself and like they're all,
they're all like there's similar aspects to a lot of them but
there's also differences just for some and I feel like every
time we do it we learn more and more and we try to apply that to
them. It might be just small mistakes
or whatever for the next time round and and I've definitely
done that and I feel like, I mean it's always horrible right?
Pre prep is whatever whether you're equipped for or not it's
it's it's it's not going to be great right.
So like, but I I feel like I've I've shortened that that that
stuff were in kind of phase and I I rebounded relatively quickly
out of that which has been good for myself.
So you and I both are were the lighter competitors in our
weight class because you and I both in the lightweight class
and what what was your show day or show weight on show day?
So my show day weight I believe when I weighed in I was 153 lbs
weigh in. But then come the the very next
day I think it was the next day after weigh in's right which was
the show or maybe it was two days after.
But anyway, on on the morning of showdown, I was around 155 lbs.
And what do you, what do you weigh now?
So right now I'm sitting at 170 lbs.
So I'm I'm, I'm basically 15 lbs up from stage weight in what?
What has it been like two months, maybe longer?
1212 weeks pretty much now, so we're we're three months.
Oh, so three months. So yeah, three months in and
I've gained 15 lbs. But I I feel like I've I've kind
of stabilised the the the rate of gain of the last like 4
weeks, it's kind of really slowed down.
I think it was quite, quite, quite quick at the beginning and
now my plan is to kind of like hover around this like 170 mark,
really slow that rate again down now because I'm I'm, I'm, I feel
like yeah there's there's a point where you go and you just
gain more more body fat you know we don't we don't need a huge
third plus in order to build muscle.
Totally agree. Man, so, but I'm I'm, I'm really
happy that I'm in a place right now where like we always get
cravings for food and stuff but like my cravings are really kind
of being suppressed now. I'm happy to kind of some days
I'll drop down my calories and then and then some days I'll
just like push them like really high depending on how I'm
feeling. But I'm just in a good spot
where I'm not like really food focused and and stuff like like
we are when we're when we're dieting for shows, you know?
Yeah, I feel like we're both in a pretty good spot because I'm I
think my I did 5 shows and my show day weight was anywhere
from I think 1:59 to I think 1:53 or 1:54.
And I woke up this morning at 167.
So I'm about, you know, 1015 lbs up to depending on what show
you're gauging off of. Yeah, So what?
What was your weight on? That's the world's.
Then the show day The world's. Let me look, I can look it up
and tell you exactly so on show day for Worlds, which was 11/19,
I was 152.3. 152 OK, Yeah, that's interesting.
Yeah. So, yeah, we're all we we, I
think we were definitely in the in the lighter end of that
lightweight plaster, right. I know obviously Dirk was was
was quite low body weight, weren't he?
But but I know a lot of them guys, especially in the in the,
if you look at the top five in the in that like crazy stat
class that we were in, there was some big guys in there, weren't
there. Like I know Jeff Alberts was
like at the top, the top end of the weight class weren't he?
I think he was like like he just made it into that weight class
and and and it and it kind of it kind of showed on stage I think
didn't it Like a lot of them guys in that top five would
definitely, yeah, they were definitely a lot a lot more
muscle a lot bigger than than us in that in that kind of second
call out. Oh, for sure, man.
I mean, I think the, the window for the lightweight class is 150
to 165 if I remember correctly. So you and I were definitely on
the lower end of that and those guys that were on the upper end,
I mean the judges were just looking for more muscle.
And I don't feel like you and I were lacking at all from a
conditioning standpoint. Like I think I was toe to toe
with any of those guys from a conditioning standpoint, but I
just did. 100%, yeah. Yeah.
And that's, that's the thing it's kind of that's
bodybuilding, right. You've got, you kind of got to
balance the two and you've got to come with with the condition
and the size. But then it then it's also about
like if you look at Dirk like he's obviously conditioned but
but his his low body weight he also has like crazy muscle
proportions right Like and he he's got he's got his muscle
popping in in all the right areas and stuff and in his
physique just like shows you know So it's like it's just
interesting that like it's it's kind of hope for us guys you are
kind of that lower lower end scale weight wise that like for
him winning that class and beating all them guys around him
which we've had had maybe 1015 lbs on him scale weight wise.
It doesn't. It doesn't look like that on
stage right when when they're standing next to each other, he
still looks as impressive, if not better than them.
And he. So it's like it's kind of.
He he's a 5, three or five, four, so he's pretty short.
I don't remember what is. Actually, yeah, he's small.
Yeah. Yeah, he's small.
Because I know I'm, I'm not that tall myself, but I was.
I was definitely taller than him, Yeah, when I was backstage.
I'm not. I'm not blessed with the height
jeans either so I'm coming in like 5-7 and a half 5/8 so.
Yeah, I'm not that. Yeah, I I'd say I'm 5/8 on a
good day. Yeah.
So maybe I'm just saying. That so so talk to me a little
bit about your your reverse actually let's just we'll talk
about the reverse diet because we're both kind of in that
reverse diet phase now. But as far as the prep itself is
concerned, how how many weeks were you dieting for that show?
So I'd have to think though I I believe I had 14, yeah.
So my first show was when I win. I won the pro card that season
so it was W MB FUAE. So the show in Dubai, they've
only got 1 show every year. So I was dieting for around
about I believe it was around 14 weeks prep for that show and I
kind of going into that show I wanted to win my pro card and
that was like the main goal for this season.
And I I was looking at potential shows after that show.
So I was looking at like Malta, I think it was a show in Malta
and then a couple of shows around Europe I was, I was like
I just want to get this programme.
That was my main goal. I said I don't mind if I travel
do multiple shows. I'm going to try and go for it
and obviously when I got when I was going into that Dubai show
14 weeks, I did make like like I wasn't.
I think my stage weight was actually 160 lbs for that show.
So that goes to the show. Like from then to world I I lost
another 5 lbs. But yeah I knew that my
conditioning wasn't the best for that show.
But I also knew because I've done that show previous years in
the past, like there's a lot of like big muscly guys in that
show which and and they don't think, they don't tend to have
like the best conditioning let's say.
So I knew that I needed to come in like bigger and it was
actually going to favour me for that show.
And that's exactly kind of the look that I brought.
I had a decent amount of conditioning, but it wasn't the
same level as what I as what I took the world.
It ended up winning my pro card at that show.
So that was good. Like I ticked it off in the
first try of the season and then I went through, I went, I went
through like a phase of like maybe it was six weeks or so
where I was like I pushed body weight up up to like 165.
I was kind of like it wasn't a reverse diet or anything.
I was just kind of like, let's call it like a diet break where
I was just a bit more relaxed. Like I kind of put my body out
of the deficit phase, like let my training improve a little
bit. And then and then when I
committed to competing for Worlds, I believe I had a
roundabout another four weeks from when I decided to actually,
I was actually going to do Worlds.
So in between shows it was it was around about 8 weeks I would
say. So when I when I won my pro card
to World was was it around 8 weeks, Ellie.
So yeah, I think I think it was around 8 weeks.
Yeah, from from from when I won the pro card to World.
But I had a little break in in between maybe three or four
weeks. But you were trying to think
your intake and everything then too, right?
You were just eating a little bit more.
Yeah, I was still, yeah, 100%. I was still tracking everything.
But I was, I was having a lot of cheat meals like because I was
like I was celebrating obviously that I won the pro card.
And at that stage I wasn't 100% I was going to compete at
Worlds. I was kind of in a phase where I
was like, well, I don't want to like mess my physique up because
as you know, like if you if you go off the rails for like even
2-3 weeks, like it's hard to pull that back then down.
So I was kind of like just I was, I was, I was 5050 in and
out of it really, but I was still tracking everything.
But yeah, I was like thinking in the back of my mind like should
I do world, should I make the pro debut there or should I just
go into an offseason. I was literally like it was a
5050 wherever I was going to but but I was at least holding my
body weight within a within a range where I knew if if I
committed to go into Worlds I only have to pull a couple of
pounds back off and I'd be right back where I was.
And then and then we could dig for some more fat loss going
into into Worlds and it and it turned out to kind of I was
close enough to what what I wanted condition wise like I I I
probably could have done with an extra week or two on my hands
going into just to be on the safe side but I feel like we're
always like that right. We always want more, more
condition. Yeah.
We could be like shredded glutes conditioned as hell and we're
like, no, no, there's more fat to come off.
Like give me another couple of weeks, you know I feel like we
could always dig for more. So it's it's one of them ones
like you dig in for more condition and then that's going
to actually make the look worse potentially when you get deep
down in them them lower phases. It's a it's an interesting
question right. Like I mean.
Yeah, no, I I totally understand, man.
I think for me world, I think honestly I probably looked the
best when I went pro in October at the the Washington State
show. And then when I did, I did two
more shows after that as a pro with Worlds being the last one.
And I was definitely leaner at Worlds.
Like that was the most conditioned I was, and that was
my whole goal with this in its entirety was to get the the
leanest person alive status. And I feel like I was pretty
much right there. That's in your bio on Instagram.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I definitely think from a a
a sheer bodybuilding standpoint, from a judge's standpoint, I
think I probably looked better when I was a little bit heavier
and wasn't quite as depleted and conditioned, you know.
So I kind of checked off all the boxes that I wanted to, but like
here I am now in reverse diet and there's like I just have so
much more fullness to me, not quite as conditioned, but much
more fullness and I feel better. So I like I like that more, but
I just really wanted to see how far I could push it, you know?
Yeah. I mean and and it's it's nice
like it's it's more for like you're not doing it, you're not
pushing the limits of how lean you can get for like a trophy,
right. It's kind of like we're we're
doing it. We want to just push our body to
the absolute limit. Like how like like you said can
you be the leanest guy in the world?
Like can you be the leanest guy on stage that whole show?
Because then like you know that you've left everything out
there. Like, you know you haven't, you
haven't kept anything back. I'm like it's like what's more
important like and if you do get like conditioned like that
you're going to be impressive no matter what.
I mean like who's who's to say that like an extra pound or two
of fullness is going to move you up places?
We don't know really do we. It's kind of like that trade off
of like kind of the look that you're wanting to achieve.
But the main thing I think is like when we're digging down fat
off, it's like them later stages you almost have to slow down the
rate of of loss, don't you, when you when you get really into
them deep phases. And for me going into Worlds, I
didn't, I didn't, I was under a time scale, right?
And I I feel feel like I was kind of rushing it a little bit,
especially like the the last like final week or two.
And I probably speed up my fat loss over like that one.
Well, like over that 1% rate of loss per week.
And I feel like it probably didn't do me any justice.
It probably didn't make me look slightly worse.
But but again, like we, we want to dig for that condition.
Yeah, you don't want to, you don't want to end up on stage
when you've been dieting for 20 weeks, 30 weeks or something and
then like you're holding a bit of body fat or or or something
in the final show of the season. You don't want, you don't want
to leave it to chance like that. Do you don't want to, you don't
want to turn up and say oh, I'm going to push for a little bit
more fullness and then you end up look like watery or something
where you look like you haven't even been dieting, let's say,
you know, that's like the worst. So it's kind of like you've got
it's risk and reward sort of thing in it when it when it
comes to peaking your physique and kind of going for that look.
But that's something like that's something you have to kind of
monitor, right. Like I don't know.
If you do you coach yourself. I'm self coached.
I am. C Yeah.
You self coach. Yeah.
Perfect. So.
So so you know yourself it's like it's just something that
you have to constantly kind of monitor and you could throw past
your girlfriend or or some close mates like what what do you
think my looks get it, you know and and then taking like
obviously the pose in every every day and taking physique
shots and and looking at the scale weight, looking all the
variables. It just helps you manage better
and and like if you can look at yourself which you probably can
because you're self coached as well from like an outside point
of view. Whereas if you're like you're
the coach sort of thing, not like taking the emotion aside
like what is actually going to be beneficial for the look like
am I getting better or worse. As long as you can be honest
with yourself with that, then ultimately you're going to
you're going to bring the best package and then you can stage
like. And 100, I mean at that level
like the untrained eye would not even be able to distinguish the
differences. I mean like the judges can tell
cause they've been doing this for years.
Other competitors can likely tell yourself, can tell.
Obviously if you've been self coaching you're taking these
physique shots. But like you're literally, you
know, teetering between that last 1% of trading off more
conditioning for fullness at that point.
And for me, like, I don't know, man.
Like, I would totally sacrifice possibly a better look with more
fullness for just the knowledge that I went as deep and as hard
as I could. Like to me, that mental shift
and that mental, you know, gratitude that comes with
knowing that you've gone that far, far outweighs that 1%
improvement in what I could potentially look like if I
hadn't taken it that far. Like I like the the
psychological benefits more so than anything.
Yeah, I I think. I think I'm the same like that,
mate. It's almost like when you ask
yourself empty questions like why do, why do all this
bodybuilders do what we do? Like realistically, like come on
like we're we're slowly killing our body over multiple weeks,
like slowly start starving our body like almost like death,
like let's say, right. If we keep going, like we're
almost going to die, like are we really doing that for like some
trophy or like some some extra followers on Instagram?
Like let's be honest, like there's there's easier ways to
make money in the world or whatever then that.
Like there's many ways to make money, right?
Like that's probably not the easiest and the best thing to do
to suffer like like prep prep for instance.
But I feel like a lot of us do do it for them, their mental
reasons like like the stuff that you learn about yourself when
you go into a prep and and like you said, you leave it all out
on the table. Like you push to try and get as
lean as possible. Like you don't you don't leave
anything to chance and you know you've like not cheated the
diet. You know you've hit every
workout. You know you've pushed on them
hard days when it got really tough and you stopped all them
cravings that that that like that's that's the reward right
there really in it. Like when you look back it's
it's just I mean you can you can do anything after that, right?
Like crap is pretty difficult in it.
It spills over into every other area of your life and that
you're able to just flourish on all fronts, knowing that you
have that confidence that you've obtained from doing those kind
of things. What what did your calories get
down to actually? What?
What was your weight at the very onset like before you started
and you said you get down to 153, but what was your starting
weight? So I've pushed up to two O 5 on
record, was like the highest body weight I've been in an
offseason setting and that was kind of after the very first
show I did back in 2020. That was my first ever
bodybuilding show. After that show I did like a two
year offseason. I pushed all the way up to like
Two O 5 because definitely on this the softer side let's say
and then then then I did a prep obviously and I actually went to
Worlds last year as an amateur. So I went to Worlds in LAWMF
Worlds and I just missed out on the pro card.
I got third place at Worlds as an amateur and then I went into
like not an offseason because I did plan to kind of compete the
following year. But I went into, obviously did
the recovery phase and then I pushed up to around 178 lbs was
my like highest body weight. And I kind of just like
maintained that, like 178 lbs. I kind of maintained there.
I was just weighting. I was obviously training hard
and everything like we're always trying to do.
And then when I was ready to go into the prep, then yeah, so I
believe I was around, I was around that 178 when at the
start of prep, which was like a lot better.
For any listeners that are listening out there that are
looking at doing shows from my advice like losing what, what
would I have lost when I went down to 155 lbs to two or five,
it's like 50 lbs, right. My maths are bad, but yeah
that's that's a lot of weight like that that that was that
that that wasn't the best look on stage either losing that
amount of weight, that dieting for that long period of time.
The best look that I I've ever had was when I went to 178 lbs
and then went back into a prep phase and that was that.
That was the prep I just did now when I went my pro card and and
and and there's no secret like there's no the the reason I'm
feeling so good after the world show and after this prep.
I believe a big part of that is down to the fact that I didn't
lose so much. I didn't have so much weight to
lose and I didn't have such a harsh deficit or or a diet in
phase. You know obviously they're
always harsh and they're always bad but by limited the damage
basically let's say and and it definitely proved better for my
physique better for my mental state better for energy levels
and just a better post show period as well.
Like everything just feels better and I guess like I
realized like I am a professional bodybuilder now
like I like to it never gets boring when I say that because
still have to kind of pinch myself to that that that's what
I am. But but I guess learning their
mistakes in the past that is like kind of how professionals
run their dieting phases and their post show periods And I'm
sure yourself like well I know you have because you your your
body weight is 167 lbs now and you know so that that that's a
smart way and the right way that it's not right or wrong but in
my opinion it's a it's a it's a better way of doing things.
It's certainly a healthier way. I mean, my first show, the first
show I did was in 2012 and I had bulked up to 230 lbs prior to
that and I cut down to 153 in 12 weeks.
I lost 80 lbs in 12 weeks. And that's that's mental.
Yeah, that was not healthy. It was not good.
I developed a bunch of eating disorders afterwards.
Like, it was just all the wrong things took place during that
first prep. And now, kind of like what you
were saying. I mean, you're a professional
athlete now. I'm a professional athlete now.
With that, you've got more perspective, you've got more
maturity, you recognize what your body responds well to, and
you don't eat like an ass after the show because there's no good
that's going to come from that. And yeah, there's been times
where I've had, you know, really high calories.
Like, I had a couple days with this reverse diet where I was
like 8000 calories, but I was very it's not.
Multiple days. Though yeah, it's not multiple
days I'm tracking it all. I'm I'm very objective and
subjective in how I feel, how my body looks, how it responds.
Like I've tested the limit because I want to have that data
and I want to have that perspective.
But when you just let yourself run rampant and, you know, let
go of the rains, that's when it that's when it gets dangerous.
And damage is done. Yeah, damage is done man.
So like having a health relationship with food post show
is where most people struggle, but that's something you just
gain more perspective on the more shows you do and you
recognize, OK, this is not worth it.
Like when you totally let yourself go like that, it's just
not worth it. So maintaining some degree of,
you know, routine and structure and and leaning on the habits
that you've introduced throughout the prep post show is
one of the best things you can do.
Yeah, 100% and and I feel like it's one of them things like in
life, people will tell us to do something or we we feel like
that's probably the smart thing to do.
But we want to like we want to break that right.
We want to make our own mistakes.
So it's like, I feel like we've all all less bodybuilders.
Like no matter who. Like if you got a first timer
and you tell them like listen like be careful, like whatever
you say, I'd be very surprised if they actually follow your
your advice because like none of us followed that advice.
We didn't even listen to it. It's almost like we've done the
dieting phase and like Post Show is like, well, it's my reward
now to just go and eat 10,000 calories every day for the next
three weeks. You know, it's like we feel like
like it's something that we're we're allowed to do, like we
should do. And you're almost like you're
almost 4 feet in your body just because like like you you just
you just lose like all sense of like everything, don't you?
And I feel like if there is any like younger listeners or or or
like people who want to get into bodybuilding competitive, like
if you can just listen to this one piece of advice from this
whole podcast here would be like like limit yourself to 1015 lbs
post show period. And and you're going to learn a
lot from that and you're going to be in a much better place.
You just don't make out mistakes like gaining 50 lbs.
Like well, your mistake gaining 8.
What was it 80 lbs post show? I I didn't gain 80 lbs post
show. I lost 80 lbs for my first show,
but then I had. Like I.
Don't remember how heavy I got after that first show, but I
definitely blew up and I just, it was not good, man.
Like it was not good at all. But like now, like this show,
this prep that I just did, I started at 182 lbs, and so I had
a much healthier, you know, I lost 30 lbs total, roughly,
which is a much. Healthy.
Yeah. It was around the same as myself
then at 178, weren't it? Yeah, I guess we lost around
around a similar amount. That's that's interesting to
know, actually. And honestly?
But that's it though. I feel like we're all like that,
like people. We're obviously doing it the
smart way. And it's probably like our
markers are very similar, right? Like, like even we're a couple
of pounds off from a starting weight, which is, which is
crazy. Yeah, 100%, man.
I feel like for me now, you know, looking at myself, I feel
really good at 165 to 170. I look really good.
I'm way leaner now than I was at the start of my prep.
So I'll probably hang out here for a little bit and then
probably transition into more of a surplus.
But still nothing crazy. Like I cannot see myself needing
to get above like 175 lbs. Like, there's just not really
any need for it. Yeah.
And I think that's that's kind of the trade off.
Like I'm like, like I'm the same like I'm holding around 170 now
and like I'm, I'm strong here, I've got good energy level, good
recovery. My food focus is off, but my
appetite's still relatively good.
If I want to push it some days or if I want to pull back some
days, that's fine. And it's like what is going to
like for me to now gain an extra 10 lbs of body weight?
Like what's he going to gain me like maybe an extra 10 KG on a
deadlift or or maybe even if it's an extra plate.
But like, does that, is that really going to correlate to
like much more muscle mass, let's say like, I'm not so sure.
Like you know, and even even if it did gain an extra like 1%
muscle mass, like you've got a diet for an extra like what, 10
weeks then to pull that weight back off.
And what is that going to do to that, that that extra 1% of
muscle mass that you would have gained?
And not only that, like it's bad for our health, right?
Like like to gain like a crazy amount of weight and then drop a
crazy amount. It's not good for our body or
heart or even like let's say our skin as bodybuilders want to
keep our skin tight, right? Like you, you don't want to be
gaining like a crazy amount of weight and then dropping back
down. It's not, it's not going to be
good for that that kind of skin look, is it?
Like, you know when when you get right, like stage lean wise.
So I just don't think it's beneficial.
I think, I think every individual is going to be
different. But I feel like we've all got
like kind of that range like we're talking about now where
we're kind of back now and it's like as long as we can hang,
like you said, hang around there for for for a long time, do some
good work there. And like if you want to push a
little bit more aggressively at a point, then that's fine, like,
you know, but don't go go in like 20 lbs increase and I'm
going crazy because it's just no need is it?
Totally agree, man. What?
What is your average caloric intake now?
So, so I would say, I would say on average I'm doing around 2500
calories per day. And then like I said like some
days I might go to like 2000 and then there might be days where
like I'll I'll do like 4 or 5000 calories, you know.
But then the following day then I'm not doing another 4 or 5000
calories. I'm just kind of like dropping
back the baseline or like even even it depends on like what I'm
training, right. So like if I'm doing like a rest
day, I might like typically go a little bit lower calories.
But then it also depends like what I'm going to be trained the
following day. So if I plant legs, let's say
for instance, that the next day I'll probably still keep my food
relatively high just to feed that, that following day's
session. So it does kind of change, but
like I would say on average around 2500 calories, yeah.
Yeah, I've been a little bit more aggressive with my intake
here lately. So I'm probably averaging around
33134 hundred. I've had a couple days that were
8000. I've had a few days that were
4006 thousand. But for the most part, I've just
gradually scaled it up from what I was and I think I got down as
low as about 1800 or so, 19. 100.
Yeah, that's about as low as I went.
And my my metabolisms crazy high, man.
Like I can pretty much maintain this weight at 167 at about 3300
calories a day. Like without any low days.
Like that's pretty much my maintenance intake.
Yeah, mine's mine's a bit lower than that.
So when I was doing my dieting Phase, I was going as low as
like kind of 1400 some days in the in the prep.
Yeah, that's pretty. Low, yeah.
And I I wouldn't spend too long like that that amount because
obviously it's going to be detrimental.
But yeah, I would do like like 17118 hundred days and then I
might throw in a couple of like 1400 days like do you know what
I mean just because just to just to get that condition but but
but I was just sticking to the rate of loss per week.
So that was my main goal like as long as I was in within that 1%,
no more than 1% rate loss per week I was, I was relatively
happy, happy with that. But yeah I'm not, I'm not, I'm
not new to that. I've done like 13-14 hundred
calorie days in previous diets and previous preps before.
So obviously our metabolisms are slightly different when it comes
to that I guess, right? Yeah, we're all, we're all
different there for sure. And what what kind of foods you
typically like? You're not doing keto, so you're
still doing a good amount of carbohydrates.
Like what kind of foods are you're comprising your meals out
of? Yeah.
So typically I would just have like my first meal of the day is
going to be like eggs, oats and whey protein with that chocolate
and some frozen fruit. And then I'll do, like
throughout the day. Then I'll run like basically
just chicken. I don't like chicken.
And what I was eating a lot of is rice cakes, believe it or
not. Yeah.
That's just like there's, I don't know if you've seen it,
snack a Jack rice cakes. Yeah.
So they, they got, they got these like packs and they only
got the big, the big packs or the small packs.
And I know it's not like it's not like clean, let's say,
right. Like like I was even asking
myself this throughout the dieting phase and I was like.
Surely it's better for me to eat rice or potato now.
And like, I'm not saying like every day was the rice cakes.
Like some days I would have rice and potato, right?
But but like a lot of the time throughout the prep, I was just
eating these rice cakes with my chicken.
So I'd have like chicken breasts and then these rice cakes,
because I I like the taste of them.
They're easy to like kind of like I don't even need to
prepare them, right? They're just they're good to go.
Like if I'm if I'm out training clients or something in the gym,
I can just grab them and I don't even need to heat them up, you
know, It's just they're they're good to go.
And again, I mean they they contain like each pack was like
1g of fat and it's like 27 grams of carbohydrates and there was a
tiny, there's a small amount of sugar in there.
But the way I was looking at it was like, I'm losing, I'm losing
body fat. Like I'm feeling good.
Energy was going good. The prep was going good.
I was liking my look and and how everything was going.
So I was like just keep just keep doing this.
Like you know, I mean I've done Diet Phases in the past where I
literally didn't have anything outside of what you would say is
like typically clean like for the entire 3-4 months, you know,
and and that wasn't the best look for myself like this, this
prep was the best look that I've ever had.
So I I just followed that strategy and I and I kept using
that into wolves. And I mean I was still having
the rice cakes and then I would get to the evening.
Then I would, I would I would usually run the same like I'd
have like oats and whey again in the evening.
So before bed like I like that meal like so I'd have it at the
start of the day and then at the evening as well and that's
pretty much it for for most of it.
And then on my higher carbohydrate days.
So if I would run like a like a like a high day, I I would add
add in things like cereal, I would add cereal, I'd have like
bagels. Trying to think what else?
So you're doing pretty low fat then throughout the the majority
of the prep, like how how low do you have your fat grams?
Yeah. So typically with the fat
intake, I I was trying to stick around about that 45 gram like
some some days we'd go up a little bit higher 50 grams, 60
grams. But but I would say with most of
the time is around 45 grams. Yeah, I like I didn't want to go
to like I've done preps again in the past where I've dropped my
fat like down like stupid levels.
But I feel like we we well, I know we need a minimum intake of
fat intake per day right. Like fats are also important.
So like, I definitely bumped it up.
Like I said, most of my days are on 4550G and I and I feel like
that was a decent amount based on my my body weight.
They they just keep me at Bay, you know?
So we're pretty much inverse on the macros 'cause my carbs were
never really above 20 total carbs.
Yeah, and my my fat never got below 125g for my fat.
Yeah it's it's mental in it and what what I find like that's why
when I met yourself and you and you mentioned about keto and and
I was like oh so there's no carb effect and it's like there was
there was a carb but it comes from obviously your protein and
your fats like sort of thing. But I I was interested to ask
you about that actually. Like so obviously when we're,
when we're trying to fill out muscle glycogen you're you're
eating so much fat obviously in the in the muscle cells we've
got triglycerides, so it's some fat there, some fat stores
there, right. But would your body just then
convert the protein into glycogen?
Basically, right? Like the excess because you're
eating so much protein and so much fat in an excessive amount?
Honestly, we'll compare that. Protein was relatively low, like
my protein got as low as I think 100 grams on the towards the end
of the prep. So my fat stayed relatively
high. My protein got down to 100 grams
there at the very end. But I mean, when you become fat
adapted, your body doesn't deplete muscle glycogen as
readily. So you're able to preserve the
muscle glycogen you have. And then you can add additional
muscle glycogen via the gluconeogenesis from that
protein conversion and also from the glycerol backbone of the,
you know, fats that you're consuming.
So I never felt like a lot of people that are coming from the
bodybuilding space assume that you're going to be really flat
and depleted and have 0 glycogen reserve if you don't eat carbs.
But once you become fat adapted, that's not really an issue.
Now what a lot of people make the mistake of doing is they'll
they'll try to do, yeah, they'll try, they'll drop their fats too
low or they'll try and do keto during the last little bit of a
prep, in which case they're not yet fat adapted, so they're not
really able to capitalize on that protocol.
But if you go into the prep, then you're good.
So as long as as long as you're in a surplus.
When when it comes to carbon up for a show like that, I said
carbon up and you're not carbon up, but when you're trying to
fill out, I guess it's the main thing is just eating in a
surplus then? Yeah, so I'll like have you know
a a bolus of fat and protein the the day before as my refeed meal
or two days before kind of depending on how my body's
responding. I did some some weeks, some peak
weeks. This past prep I was having like
a refeed pretty much every night, the week of the prep
coming from fat and protein. But again, there was no
additional carbs like it was pretty much for me ground lamb
with duck fat and maybe an additional keto brick.
So like all fats and proteins, and my body just soaked that up
and responded really well. And because there's no carbs,
there was never really any risk of me overshooting it and
spilling over. So I feel like it's a safer
approach because you don't have to risk spilling over.
Yeah, yeah. So interesting to to kind of
hear a different perspective, I mean outside of like the norm
and it just goes to show that there's many ways what's that
saying there's many ways to skin a cat.
You know it's like there is, there is many ways of doing this
you know and and obviously your finished look was was just as
good as any any of ours on the day.
So it clearly works, you know, and yeah, it's just interesting.
I always say like obviously I'm a personal trainer, online coach
myself. I say to clients, they say to me
like Lewis, like, is keto good? Is this good?
And I say to them like, I mean, the best thing for me would be
like keep your options open. But like if.
But the the best thing is like, do what works for you.
You know, if if you find, like you operate better or for
whatever reason you want to do keto and then do keto, you know,
like every diet works, right? As long as you can stick to it,
Yeah. So it's like.
Sustainability. The main thing is, yeah, the
main thing is just the D runs and like like what you what you
enjoy more of I guess. Like I like, I like eating
carbohydrates, you know? So and my I find I feel like my
body responds better to a higher carbohydrate intake than than a
higher fat intake. So that's just what I kind of
roll with, you know? But yeah, it's just each to
their own, really. I bet the good thing is there's
multiple options to this, right? Yeah, 100%.
I don't ever want to be dogmatic in my nutritional beliefs, cause
a lot of people get that way and they just assume that there's
only one way to do things. But I mean there's been people
that have been getting lean with a variety of diets for a long
time, so that's a very short sighted view.
Out of curiosity, what does your nutrition look like now?
I mean, are you still doing like chicken breasts and rice cakes,
or are you doing a lot a lot more different foods?
Yeah, so I'm pretty, I'm pretty much like I'm eating the same
thing. So some things that have
changed, like everything I just said, I was eating all the prep.
I'll wake up in the morning, have eggs.
So for instance, like when I was dieting, I think I was doing
like 2 egg, egg, whole eggs, and then I'll do 2 egg whites,
right? That was my that was my egg
meal. Now I'm doing just three whole
eggs every day. So I'll have three whole eggs
and then my oats are like about the same amount.
But I haven't really changed that too much.
And then what I'm doing with my chicken meals now is I buy like
these burger buns, right, The bread, like the bread rolls.
And I literally just like put my chicken inside them and I'll
have like, so I'll have my chicken breast and and like a
burger, a bun like bread roll, you know, and and that's what
I've been doing. And then and then I've also been
just doing the rice cakes, but I'm obviously eating more of the
rice cakes now. So like when I when I was
dieting, like I'd love to see limits when every meal I was
having rice cakes, you know if my cabs were lower that day or
whatever. Whereas now in the in the in the
offseason setting like every meal I'm basically having
carbohydrates with you know there's not going to be, even
even if I'm dropping my calories down, like I'm not going to have
a meal where it's just protein and veggies.
Like every meal is going to is pretty much going to be
carbohydrates in. And then obviously then like I'm
just throwing in a lot more of cheat meals and stuff.
So like like what my rule is when it comes to cheat meals
like like I don't have sugar. Like my rule is no sugar until
the evening. Like that's one of my rules,
like until the last meal of the day, no sugar because I know
once I start having sugar it just kind of froze everything
else off and I'll just binge my diet, let's say, right.
So that's my kind of if I'm going to have like any sugar,
it's going to come in the evening and my last meal of the
day. So I'll I'll I'll if if I decide
to have a cheat meal one day, I'll I'll eat the rest of my
meals will be cleaner throughout the day and I might drop my
carbohydrates out slightly. And then I get that evening
meal, which I'll order like, I don't know, burger and chips or
something. And then I'll have like, I'll
have even. It sounds bad, but I'll just be
honest, you know, And I'll have like, I'll have like a big tub
of ice cream and then maybe like like a big box of cookies or
something, you know, Yeah. And and then and then then the
next day I'll just be back on my diet again.
Like I say, diet, but just back on the normal kind of normal
calorie amount and and everything that I've been used
to eating. I think one of the important
things that you said here is that you know apart from the
cheat meals, but you're you're are moderating.
It's like you're letting yourself go ad libitum with ice
cream, but you're keeping the types of foods pretty
consistent. Whether you're in prep or not,
You just change the quantities. And I think that's key because,
like for me, I'm eating the exact same things I was during
the prep, just more of it. And I feel like a lot of people
make the mistake of totally changing the food types from
prep versus offseason. And that's where a lot of them,
you know, go astray because they don't have that simplicity.
They don't have that. They've they've got more options
and that creates more decision fatigue and just more
overwhelming, more likelihood for deviating.
But if you're keeping the types of foods relatively consistent,
whether you're in a prep or not, which you should, I mean, it's a
lifestyle, so there shouldn't be this stark contrast.
So I think that's good for sure. Yeah.
And I think that spills over to other areas as well.
Like like we we can talk about the training and stuff like like
if if you're you're finishing a prep phase and like we're
obviously professionals for like we're going to treat it a little
bit differently. And I kind of feel like, like
you said, it's not like a lifestyle, but maybe like if
we're acting like an amateur or something, we're like, yeah,
when I was an amateur, I'd finished like the prep and I'd
be lost like be like what? Well, what am I doing now?
Like, whereas when you're like when we fully committed to this
and I was acting like a professional before I came a
professional, right, Like that's how I became a professional
because like I finished my prayer and and I'd be like, OK,
then what's next? OK, like you said, we're
sticking on the similar meals for just more of it and then
it's like training, OK, focus now is going to going to focus
on on training. Like, what are the areas of my
physique I'm trying to bring up more of?
And then it's like, like if we're doing a prep, we're doing
like, let's say 10,000 steps a day and we're doing a cardio
every day. All right?
Like, we don't need to do cardio every day.
Now we're going into an offseason setting, but let's
still keep some structure in place and do cardio for overall
health, for mental health, you know, just to keep active.
Like, we're athletes, yeah, we're professional bodybuilders.
So we need to act like it like, and it gives you some structure
to your life then where you're not just, like going off the
rails drinking alcohol and just being like, oh, throwing in the
towel like, well, I'm, I'm not on prep now, so I'm not a
professional bodybuilder. No, you're a professional
bodybuilder all the time. And even if you're an amateur
and if you want to be a professional, you need to act
like a professional all the time, whether you're in
offseason or on season. It doesn't matter right?
Like like you should be going into that gym and and and
structuring your training programme like with intent, like
to make real progress, you know to improve like and and and and
that that leads with like we said the diet, like steps for
instance. If you're used to doing 10,000
or 15,000 on a diet place like set yourself for amount of step
count that you want to do, it's going to be less.
But you still have that structure in place, then that is
going to keep yourself accountable, to live in the
bodybuilding lifestyle. Because we're all going to step
on stage again at some point, right?
And we don't want to step on stage looking the same as what
we did two years ago. Like we want to, we want to go
and look back at photos and be like, wow, yeah, we we
definitely made progress. It might be 3 lbs because we're
natural, but at least we made progress, right?
Like. I think.
We don't want to be going. Back is absolutely key man.
And this this holds true whether it's bodybuilding or or anything
in life. Like figure out who you want to
be and what you want to stand for, and then act like that
before you get to that level. Because.
Live by that. Yeah, live by that.
That's what's going to get you to that level.
So many people go through life and I, oh, I'm going to change
XY or Z when I get to this point.
It's like, no, no, that's the complete backwards way of
looking at. You got to act like the
professional that you want to be now so that you can become the
professional you want to be. Yeah I was.
I was like I was looking before I turned pro, right?
I was like obviously we both compete in the WNBF.
Like I've not actually competed in any of it.
I've competed 1 federation which was my first show in Dubai, but
it was an untested event. It was just it was a random like
crappy level show and I just did a fun experience.
But my my when I looked into natural bodybuilding I was like
for me the WNBF is the is is the real true federation.
Like I mean the the so so that was what I was striving for.
And then like like we were talking about then like I I I
didn't even get my pro card. Like when when I did my first
show and I went into a two year offseason I was like, I want to
be a professional. I want to I want to win my pro
card in the WNBF. But I wasn't living like it like
if someone said to me like OK like what are you doing?
And like, I was going out drinking alcohol still.
I was like, I was getting wasted.
And I was like, like every week, like almost.
And I was like, like looking back, I was like, no wonder you
didn't make much progress. Like what?
What were you thinking? And then no wonder my body
weight went up to two or 5 lbs. And it's like, yeah, I want to
be a professional, but I wasn't living like it.
So then when I went to Worlds last year as an amateur and I
conferred and I went away from that show, something changed
inside and I was just like, yeah, this.
I want this. Like I want this pro card.
Like I'm going to get and I'm going to act like, like I need
to be to get it, you know? And I was just listening to so
many podcasts like in the in the natural bodybuilding space, you
know and and I was just on Instagram and I would follow
like whenever I've seen a W MB F Pro in someone's title on
Instagram, I'd follow them. And I literally just started
mass following like all WMBF Pro bodybuilders and and and not all
of them I agreed with. Not all of them.
I liked it to Zeke but all But I was just trying to like what can
I learn from this person who's got something that I'm trying to
strive for. And I and I just did that and I
took a little bit from them. I took a little bit from them.
I just applied it to my own kind of life, then in training, and
then I became WMF Pro bodybuilders, you know, I mean,
but it wasn't like random. It was, It was.
It was a sequel to that, you know?
It was like I was following that people that had been there and
done it and and I was I was living my life day in day out
like it for multiple months and months and months you know and
and and then I just applied it and and then it kind of worked
out for me you know in the end which which I'm grateful for.
No, I totally agree, man. I love it.
Like that's what it takes. You got to reverse engineer who
you want to become and then just start living those principles
now before you get there. Otherwise you're just going to
be spinning your wheels in perpetuity, so.
Which then years. Yeah, wasting your like, the
time's gonna pass anyways, so you might as well fill that time
doing the things that you know are going to contribute to your
overall betterment. So yeah, 100% what?
What do you do now? Like when you're in the building
phase like you are now? Are you tracking your macros and
your training as closely? Are you more loose?
Like do you train intuitively or do you track that as well?
Like how do you kind of structure that?
So so again, when? When I when I when I finished,
When I went to WMF World as an amateur and I finished, I I was.
I was more strict with my diet. Like I wasn't.
I wasn't gaining crazy amounts of body weight.
But I wasn't also tracking so much.
Like I I would go from tracking my body weight every day in a
prep and then the minute I'd finished my show I'm like, I'm
probably going to track once a week and then that once a week
would then turn to maybe once every couple of weeks tracking
the body weight. And I just wasn't really.
I was less stable. I was still a lot better than
before and I was living the lifestyle and that.
But I wasn't tracking as much. And now I've gone into this
habit like since well, since I was a professional, like when
the pro card And then even after this this world show, I
literally track everything still.
Like, I just feel like I got Peace of Mind then like like I
don't really need to but I want to.
It's going to help me plan my next day there.
Plan that current day there. So I literally, I track my scale
weight every day. Every morning I'm tracking my
calories in my fitness pile. But it's not like I'll track
like my 4 meals of the day. And if I'm having a cheat meal,
I won't input that cheat meal into the app, let's say, right.
I'll make sure that my protein intakes hit.
So I'll get to like 150 grams. And then I'm like, right, I got
a cheat meal now it's probably going to be around 4050 grams of
protein in that. That's going to put me up to 200
Gray. And then the excess of fat and
carbohydrates, that's going to spill me over.
But but great, I'll be back on the diet the next day.
So I kind of like I track most things and then like there's a
little bit of room for error there, which I feel like it's
just better for Peace of Mind that I'm not tracking the the
amount of sauce I'm putting on a burger or even the amount of fat
intake that I'm getting on a cheap but let's say.
But the most majority of the time I'm tracking, I am tracking
things. And then when it comes to
training, I've always been someone that kind of like, is it
like intuitive trainer? Like I don't have a log book.
I go off feel for like movements, I go off feel for
exercises. I don't go in the gym with like
a like a laid out structure, let's say.
But I've got a rough idea in my head of what exercise I want to
do on each given day before I go into the gym, but again, since
I've competed at Worlds. And what I've started
implementing and doing now is I am tracking so like I'll put on
my own sheets that I use for like Google Sheets I use for
clients. I'll put.
Like for instance if I did legs, I do like I'd put I'd write on
their legs and then I'd be like what I did for Babel Squad.
So if I did a heavy idea like I'd track what what heavy idea I
did for the amount of reps you know.
And I'm just like writing certain exercises that I feel
that I want to progress, that I need to progress, that I need to
write down Or if a movement felt really good for me, I'd be like
I put like a tick next to this movement like this felt good and
and give some feedback and write some stuff in.
So I am being a little bit more structured but like if there's
any logbook people out there I don't know if yourself if you do
that like you're probably listening to this thinking like
he doesn't follow a structure at all you know.
But for me, even just starting to write down the amount of
weight that I'm lifting, that is like more structure than I've
ever had before. Because usually, like I'll have
a rough idea of the lift that I'm that I'm previously lifting
on these bigger compound movements and I'll know where
I'm lifting on certain exercises and I'll just try and push my
body close to failure on them. Exercises.
Yeah, any given day. That's pretty much me too.
Like I've I've always trained intuitively.
I've known kind of what lifts I've hit in the past and what I
need to be to implement progressive overload.
I just started tracking my training consistently this year,
like 2024. In January I pretty much started
tracking that. I'm building out a a workout app
right now, so I wanted to have that data and I don't know if
I'll stick with tracking the exercises for long.
I'm just kind of playing around with it right now.
I like having that data, but I've always trained intuitively
up to this point, so I totally get where you're coming from
there. Yeah, I feel like it's that
there's going to be a balance to it Robert.
And it's like it's like we don't need to swing full all the way
to the other side of the spectrum log book and everything
progressing everything. But we also as professionals, we
can be like if we're really trying to progress certain
muscle groups or like, like we're at a top level now, right?
Like WMF world's like on stage with like elite level athletes,
right. Like we can't afford to be just
like kind of winging it like we used to do in the past.
Yeah. Where where we can have too much
freedom with when it comes to pushing body weight up when it's
the diet or the training. So I feel like you've got to
find like your own balance because the most important thing
we need to enjoy it, right, Like the for for us to get the most
progress out of out of our training, out of our diet, out
of everything, out of the livestock.
We have to enjoy it because if we enjoy it, we're going to do
it better. We're going to do it for longer,
right? We're going to do it in just
just improved in all different areas if we're enjoying it.
So I feel like that's a key part of the process is that make sure
you enjoy it and and then like apply the structure that is
needed where it's needed. You know, like if I'm if I, if
I'm squatting 140 KG one week, I can't be going in the gym the
following week and squatting 100.
You know, it's just like that. That's like that's not good
enough, you know, like, but it's not to say that I need to be
doing 150 the following week just to progress my logbook.
Like maybe I was tired, tired. Maybe I was tired going into
that session. Maybe my sleep was bad that the
following day might maybe my nutrition was off slightly then
pushed like 120 for more reps, let's say.
Or maybe my knee felt a bit like not not great.
You know that that that's it like go a little bit lower, but
you're not like jump in like 2 plates off or whatever.
So there's that little bit of structure there, but there's
still that flexibility where we're we're able to kind of
enjoy it, right, because that's why we all, that's why we all
started. This was for enjoyment.
Yeah, 100% like you got to, you got to have enough structure to
make sure that you're trending in the right direction over
time, but you've got to have enough flexibility and be able
to just know your body enough and well enough to to be
adaptable when it it calls for times of being adaptable.
Like if you've got an injury, if you didn't sleep as well, like
you have to have a little bit of nuance there for sure.
But honestly, the more I've been into this lifestyle, the the
more mature I've gotten as a competitive athlete, the more
I've enjoyed the structure because I can see how the
structure leads to the progress and you fall in love with that
progress and then you just fall in love with the entire process
that it takes to get there. So I I used to probably be
frustrated with the the level of detail associated with the
tracking, but now I I just kind of enjoy it more than anything.
Yeah I I I feel like yeah if if you can find that good balance
like definitely like that that's that's going to play a better
role in in the progression. But I just feel like there's
certain like I'm not against log booking like for but for some
people they they they need that log booking like if you took
them through a intuitive session, they'd have a terrible
session. They've and they've probably
their week will be messed up for the whole week because of it,
you know. So there is certain individuals
that they need more of that structure.
But I feel like again, they take it too far on the spectrum where
it can be actually dangerous and they're just not feeling the
muscle on certain lists because they're so focused on that that
progression going up like where they don't cater for that, that
that room for error or that room for flexibility a little bit.
But I I feel it's just a balance to it, right.
But but you're 100% right about about the, the structure.
I mean, yeah, when you see your, your physique changing, it just
makes you want to want to be more on everything, right?
Like you don't want to binge your diet.
You don't want to slack the workouts.
You want to keep pushing and and and go in like you said trending
in that right direction. 100% So let me ask you this man, now
that you and I are both done with the 2023 season and the
shows behind us. We're both professional athletes
now and the all consuming nature of a prep is officially over.
We're still doing everything that we do to progress
obviously, but what? What is something in your life
outside of bodybuilding that you're now going to be able to
focus more on, that you're super excited about?
So, so for myself, I mean it's it's just it's kind of linked
with bodybuilding but but it's just focusing on business.
So like trying to progress my business, which I'm an online
coach and personal trainer. You know, just just showcasing
what I know and what I've learned to try and to help
others and improve their life through that, you know, and it's
like, I want to, I want to like there's so much stuff online
when it comes to like physique development and the fitness
industry and like just like fat loss and diet and so on.
I just want to kind of put my stamp on on the industry, you
know, And kind of because there's a lot of stuff out there
which it kind of scares people away and like or it sends people
down the wrong paths. And like especially as that's
like natural bodybuilds. I feel like it's it's something
that we like. We owe it to the to the
youngsters coming up and stuff but we need to give them an
option to that. There is a route down this path,
you know, and I know, I know you asked me this question that is
like the preps over now like it take anything outside of
bodybuilding and I've just brought it back to bodybuilding
because because this is my passion mate.
You know, it's like, I find it like hard to kind of like, I
like watching football and stuff, but but yeah, this is
just, this is what I love, man. Like this.
I love, I love physique development, I love coaching
clients, helping others, and I love bodybuilding.
So it's like, even though I'm not competing now and I'm not,
I'm prepping for that next show already, mate.
Like I'm, I'm getting ready for that show, you know, regardless.
But I guess, like living, living, living more of a like a
kind of, let's say, normal. We're always on things, right?
But it is going to be meals off plan most you get to enjoy that
with your girlfriend maybe potential like book a holiday
this year not a holiday where I go and compete somewhere it's
actually going to be a proper holiday probably where I get to
just to just to go and relax and go somewhere where I want to go.
So yeah I'm looking forward to kind of being able to travel a
little bit free free that free and kind of yeah just growing
like I said growing the business side of things and trying to
spread my message and and my knowledge to help others you
know and grow natural bodybuilding.
I feel like we I feel like we've all got a duty mate like as as
as if we really care about this sport.
Like it's not just that we, we like to like say the promoters
and these federations they need to be doing more.
But I feel like, I feel like as as bodybuilders need to need to
be doing more as well. Like, you know, like I know it
probably gets boring. I hashtag natural bodybuilding
all my posts and like I'm constantly talking about like
saying I'm natural bodybuilding and stuff.
But but I feel like we should all be doing that because
there's not enough information out there.
Like it's so easy for people to just kind of go down the
assisted route and and look at Chris, like Chris Bumpstead and
all that huge guys. You know when when you're
missing like there's there's a safer route to this guy, it's
like and A and a healthier route, you know, I feel like we
need to promote that like all of us.
We all have a duty to do that, like.
I totally agree man. And I feel like there is, it's,
it's 100% find that what you're excited about is still very
closely linked to your passion and body.
But I'm the same way. Like everything that I'm working
on in life is somehow or another linked to all the things that
I'm passionate about. And for me, you know, fitness
and bodybuilding, nutrition kind of stems from all of that.
So I think having that symbiotic relationship with everything
that you're doing is a positive as opposed to something that's
totally counter to what you're passionate about.
So yeah, I think that is the right direction for sure.
And I think you're absolutely on on point with wanting to promote
the sport of natural bodybuilding more as well.
Like that's something that I'm passionate about.
I see so many people going the unhealthy routes, especially at
a young age, man. Like when you make those
decisions at such a young age, it really short circuit your
potential and what you're going to have to continue to stay on
gear wise, you know going forward and like health and
longevity and overall Wellness is the the main goal and
bodybuilding can be a healthy vehicle to achieve that if you
do it the right way and I. Think they?
They don't. They don't See the option of the
day. We need to.
We need to show them that that
there is an option for. That yeah, so more.
More eyes being on the sport of natural bodybuilding.
More attention being brought to it, More, more education.
So yeah, I'm 100% on the same page you made.
If there's anything that we can do collectively to promote this,
you know, far and wide, sign me up, brother.
I mean, yeah, I mean like what you're doing is great with the
with the podcast. I know you get a lot of guys on
the podcast and there's a lot of other guys in the natural space
that also have a podcast and and they're talking about it and
stuff and and and it is good like because when you think
about it like you know you look at footballers and stuff like
like if you if you go and follow any like professional
footballers like Cristiano Ronaldo, like all the top level
footballers. Like if you look at the
Instagram, it's like they're constantly like posting just
photos of like them, them playing football, photos of
their, their club, you know, photos.
Like they're constantly promoting it.
Just like we need to promote. Like we need to constantly be
talking about natural body. We need to constantly be like
promoting natural bodybuilding. Like like I like what the guys
in that news daily are doing as well.
Like you know, they're they're doing a lot of things for the,
for the, for the sport. And like, yeah, it's just it's
just good to see and guys like yourself with the podcast and
it's good to see people growing it and we just need to continue
to grow it like even more. I feel like it's like when I
think a natural bodybuilding, I feel like like it's so small,
right? It's there's hardly any eyes on
it, right, as a sport. But it has so much potential
like so much potential that is like untapped because like when
you actually speak to these young kids and say like do you
know there's like drug tested natural federations like and do
you know, like this guy here is natural?
Like this guy trained for 10 years and built this physique.
He's natural like would you love to look like that And then and
then we go, yeah, but they they think maybe non actually non
steroids or something. You know it's like if if we just
get the eyes on the sport first the attention and just can we
all just try our like do our bit for the sport.
Like who knows where it's going to, where it's going to go and
we're just ultimately we're going to save lives right.
Like we are like literally go we're going to save lives in
that process. So anyone that is promoting this
sport like like you said sign me up I'm I'm ready to kind of
that's why when you when you said about jumping on the
podcast I was like yeah it's definitely mate like let's let's
do it. You know well you it's only
going to going to be a positive thing.
Yeah. Well, you've got an open
invitation anytime, anytime you want to come on, talk about
natural bodybuilding, talk about what you're doing.
I mean, you've got an open invite because our goals are
very much so aligned in that regard.
No, I appreciate that mate and thanks a lot for.
But having me on and having this chat today, it's been, it's been
really good. Then hopefully any listeners out
there that yeah that that took something from what we've said
and they can they can kind of learn from our mistakes when it
comes to the dieting phase and stuff.
And yeah don't don't make the mistakes that we made and
potentially they they're going to progress quicker at a faster
pace you know. And a healthier pace, for sure.
And a healthier pace? Yeah, well.
Where do people go to find out more about you and dive into
your world, ma'am? So yeah, you can check me out on
Instagram Summers .93 and I've also got a coach in Instagram
Summer Fit Direct where I post all like my client based stuff
and I'm I'm also on YouTube as well.
My name's Lewis Summerson. But yeah I don't post too much
on the I need to. I need to.
I'm being slacking. I need to get better at that
consistency. I'm talking about pro natural
bodybuilding. I'm not.
I'm not doing my bit to be
honest mate. I need, I need my game as well
like I do. I do few blogs for the prep
phases and like film the show day videos and stuff if you have
a look on my on my YouTube channel.
But yeah, again I need I need to progress that more and it's also
going to help grow our businesses right.
So it's it's it's just all all all positive things.
We'll keep fighting the good fight, man.
Keep putting up the content. Keep living the healthy
lifestyle. Keep changing lives and just
keep doing what you're doing, man.
I'm I'm very grateful that you on that 5050 Rd.
Between doing Worlds or not. And you decided to do it because
you and I meant as a result of that.
So I was honored to step on stage with you, man.
I'm excited to see what the future holds for you. 100% mate
and for yourself like hope. Hopefully we can definitely
cross paths again and hopefully share the stage again at some
point. Then I'll definitely be
following along your journey as well.
And who knows, one day I might turn keto, so I I might come to
you for some diet advice for that.
Hey man, I'm happy to help answer any keto questions you
ever have and I'm looking forward to sharing the stage
with you again. Hopefully you and I both be a
few pounds heavier next time we both step on stage.
That's, that's the plan, mate. Let's let's hope and pray.
Sounds good, bro. Take care, Louis, man.
Yeah. Cheers, Rob.
Nice to mate. Bye.
Yeah.