What is going on? Yale Robert Sykes, Keto
savage.com And today I've got special guest and good friend
Jonathan Shane, the Keto Rd. on the podcast and we dive into his
supplement company. We talked about that last time
he was on here and he was about to launch it.
So I wanted to kind of bring him back on and talk about how it's
gone so far since the launch. We dive into his running
endeavors. He's actually here in town this
week. So we got some some in person
training downs in person running down and we kind of.
I wanted to pick his brain as to what his running career is going
to look like for this coming year.
He's got some pretty lofty goals, doing some 62 mile races,
marathon, a 250 mile race. I kind of wanted to pick his
brain about how he's going to fuel for that because he has
been incorporating some carbohydrates from a fueling
standpoint. Not much, but a little bit.
So I wanted to pick his brain as to how that's impacted his
cortisol levels and his overall performance.
So we talked about nutrition, we talked about running, we talked
about. Business, we talked about it
all. So always a pleasure getting
Jonathan on the podcast and just talk and shop.
Hopefully take something from this.
I have no doubt that you will. So that further ado sit back,
relax, enjoy the conversation with my boy Jay.
Shane. Jay Shane the Keto Rd.
How are you bro? I'm doing pretty good.
I wasn't as good you should have.
You should have done better. Do it.
Do it for me. Do it for me.
The. Keto Rd.
It's like reverse puberty when you do it.
OK, yes, that's that's my problem.
And I don't, I don't know how to do reverse puberty, but you've
got it mastered to let you keep rocking the reverse puberty.
So you've been here since Sunday.
Yeah. It is now Tuesday morning and we
have done a little bit of everything, man.
You've wanted to come to get a little day in the life action
here. Talk some shop, do some biz dev.
And we haven't done a whole lot of biz dev, but I think you've
definitely gotten the feel for the day in the life.
We've had pretty much something going on since you got here.
We we worked on. I ran into your truck first
thing it was. Great.
Yeah, that was great. Good visitor stuff.
Yeah, you parked behind me and you're like, hey man, should I
move the truck? And I'm like, no, I got plenty
of space. And then I'm turning around and
I graze the bumper of your truck with the bumper of my truck.
And then I felt terrible. So we got your car detailed.
They buffed it out pretty good. Not completely good, but pretty,
pretty good. Pretty good.
And then what? What else we do on Sunday?
We worked on the chicken coop. We got the chickens all squared
away. Gardening.
Did some gardening, we got some plants and then we where we
worked out, we did a what we do for the workout on.
Full body deadlifts. Yeah, we did full body and we
did deadlifts as the primary compound for back.
And then on Monday yesterday we worked out again we did some
heavy hip thrusters. And then you talked me into
running 4 miles on a very technical trail.
It was good. It was actually like 4 1/2 miles
running. It was, I remember because I was
like, all right, we have about like a quarter mile left and I'm
like, are we, are we done? And he goes, no it's a ways and
I'm like, this is not 4 miles or ever.
Yeah. Yeah, I knew it was for
something, but I don't know what that something was So 4.3 I
think. So it wound up being and a very
steep, technical rocky terrain. And what are they called?
Yo Yassos. Yassos explain what the hell
Yasso is, man. Yeah, so Yasso is basically an
interval training where you do 800 meter strides threshold
effort. So like 1/2 marathon 10K effort.
Basically just this happened to the anaerobic threshold area.
So we did. We ran a mile at a leisure.
Early pace and then we walked for two minutes and then we ran
1/2 mile at a pretty good Sprint clip.
Then we walked for two minutes and then half mile sprinted 2
minute walk, half mile Sprint, 2 minute walk, half minute half
mile Sprint, 2 minute walk, and then a final mile and 1/4 or
1/2. As like a more leisurely pace.
Yeah, but I haven't run in a year and a half, so it kind of
kicked my butt. But I don't think you would be
able to tell that it kicked my butt, cuz I didn't let you gain
on me at all. No, no, you did really good.
You did good. I was, I was impressed and like
I was telling him yesterday, you know, like the watching you
finish like when you took off at the end cuz you got in the
front. I was like OK, OK Robert.
Yeah, man. I I can't, I can't cross the
finish line walk and it messes with my head, so I just be
sprinting. But yeah, I felt good.
I mean I like running on those super technical trails and I
like said, I haven't run in a year and a half, so I didn't
know what my ankles are going to be doing.
But I've been doing that knees over toes, ATG program and I
didn't have any issues with my knees whatsoever with the run,
which was nice and my ankles felt good.
I only fell twice, got covered in mud, scraped my knee up a
little bit, you fell once. And your shoe came off kind of,
yeah. So that wasn't good.
No. But but yeah, pretty, pretty
good, pretty good little run. And then we had.
So after that, what'd we do? Wait on Sunday.
No, that was on. That was yesterday, Monday.
Oh yeah, yesterday we just the business stuff after that.
Yeah, we got with the leaks. Lawn mower got stuck.
Yep, we got we have a leak at the building here.
The the yard is flooded and I got the lawn mower stuck.
Had to pull that out with the truck.
And then we talked spreadsheets, went over some P&L statements,
kind of showed you some inventory stuff that I've been
doing and hopefully you can apply that to your company which
we talked about last time you on the podcast, yeah, which was you
said December, January something.
Yeah, that's when it went out, when I went live, yeah.
Yeah. And that was largely about your
company performance gains, energized Reds as the product.
You want to talk about that a little bit now that we've been,
now that you've been live for five months now.
Yeah, it's a it's it's crazy. You know, like I look back and
and yeah, it's not like, you know, we sold out in 5 minutes
or like it was just like this thing that all of a sudden
everybody knows what performance gains is.
But like for me, like knowing that there are people out there
that are using this product for recovery, they're using, some
people are using it for energy, right, because it's so mild and
caffeine and they do feel the energy from it, but.
I'm just knowing that it's impacting people in a positive
way and like it's doing what I wanted it to do, which was help
people gain in performance. Like it's the whole mantra you
can perform, right? So being able to get that out
there, just knowing that even if it's in a small number, for me
it's a big impact. It's a big deal.
Like if only the people that have tried it continue to use it
and continue to benefit from it. I've won in life.
Like I'm very, very happy with what it's been so far.
Learned a lot, made a lot of mistakes already like I
remember. I was telling you we got
insurance and like I was paying for insurance before we got the
product and which don't do that because you don't know if the
product's going to come in and it didn't come in.
So we were paying on insurance for like 9 months without a
product. And so when it finally came in,
you know, just learning like how to not, you know, pouring money
into ads and then like the ads don't work out and then like
learning like marketing and affiliate stuff and just like
learning how to navigate all that in an efficient way that
doesn't really. Pull away from the integrity of
the company, I think is the things that I've been learning.
And it's nice too, because it's made me a more thoughtful
person. It's made me more proactive.
It's made me more thoughtful in terms of when I'm making
choices. Like how does this reflect me?
How does this reflect the business?
How does this reflect what I'm trying to portray and how I'm
trying to impact people? Does it skew that at all?
And so being able to look at things through that lens has
really been beneficial for me in all areas of my life.
And it's been we got a long ways to go, you know, just kind of
sharing some of the visions that I have with you yesterday and
then and we're we this party literally just got started.
It is. It is good though man cuz like I
feel like a lot of people too scared to put themselves out
there and launch a product in the 1st place and then when you
do it's like you don't have any perspective to know what to
realistically expect. So like are you going to sell
out? Are you not going to have a
single bite like when I launched my book, My first book, not the
the most recent one, but the first book that I didn't even
talk about because I don't want people to try and buy it because
I'm not as proud of it like I was like man, this is going to
be my saving grace. This is how I'm going to retire.
This is how I'm going to make business and money and and yet
nobody bought it. Like I I told my best friend
that I was launching the book and then at midnight that day
nobody had bought it, so he bought 1.
So I can say that I sold one on on the first day of launch.
You know, and like, that happens a lot, man.
Like people, like there's not a lot of instant get rich quick
schemes that are legit. Like those don't really exist in
the real world. So it's like a slow, arduous
journey, but it makes you appreciate every little piece of
the puzzle as you go through it. You know, like I think about
Keto Brick and we sold out for sure when we first launched, but
people don't have a clue what'll happen before that first launch.
You know, like there's just so much.
That went into that. And you know, like with your
product, I mean you're doing it all in house to like you're you
have a coat pack for manufacturing, but like you're
having them ship it to your place, you know, and I'm jumping
on a zoom call with you Like I see all your packaging supplies
in the background of your living room.
Like, I totally get that, man. Like, I love that.
And I think that's what it takes.
People need to appreciate those emphasis phases because that's
what builds the backbone for what's to come, you know.
Yeah, no, absolutely. It's it.
It's been a journey and you know it.
It does take me aback. Like I was really fortunate,
like, you know, when I worked for Keto Brick, Like you know,
coming in where when I did, when y'all were at the building and
then Brian just watching like the good things and then
obviously like obviously learning from any mistakes that
were made or whatever, right? Like just being observant, as
observant as I could have been back then.
I've grown a lot since then. But you know, and then like
being able to see someone bootstrap something and then
like doing it myself, you do. It's interesting because I think
a lot of people that start companies too, they've never,
they don't know anybody that started a company, right?
And so, like, they don't have that, that deeper appreciation.
I feel like sometimes, like now that I'm doing it myself, I look
at my friends that own companies and I'm just like, whoa, like,
dude. Like, people have no idea.
Like, what it takes. Especially like when you're
coming at it from a place of you're not trying to just get
rich. You're not.
We talked about this yesterday. We're not trying to make money.
We're trying to genuinely help people and and we're not willing
to do anything that could fracture that goal, that
passion, that desire. And you know when you do it that
way and you don't take the shortcuts and you don't take the
money and you don't, you know, and not that any of that
necessarily is wrong because if somebody wants to do that,
that's for their prerogative. But like for us, people like us
like, it's like. That makes it that can make it
10 times harder, right? But like, it's worth it.
Because, you know, you're being true to yourself.
You're being true to the purpose of what you're trying to do.
And I really appreciated watching that and you continuing
to watch that and you and, you know, being able to apply that
myself to my own, my own passions and my own goals and
how I want to impact people for sure.
It's definitely good to have somebody that you can like, not
say, try to emulate exactly, but like look up to, aspire to and
ask questions of cuz like I look at my uncle who owns his own
business. You know, I remember sitting in
his office when I was a kid and him showing me spreadsheets and
P&L statements and you know, balance sheets and stuff like
that, that I would not have had the opportunity to see those
things had not been for him. And you know, it's like hunting.
Like I can't imagine some of that wasn't raised hunting, just
getting into it point blank and trying to figure things out on
their own, which is kind of what you're doing with hunting too.
But it's like I I mean I had to learn a lot by myself with
business for sure. And I went to Business School.
And that didn't really put a whole bunch of applicable
knowledge in my head with what I've had to do with keto brick
business. But just simply having somebody
that's done something similar before you that you can kind of
lean on for questions like that's so incredibly important.
A lot of people like to throw out this rags to riches story
tale of how they've built it all on their own shoulders and
haven't leaned on anybody for help.
And there are instances like that for sure.
And like, there's not been a moment where I've gone out and
taken outside funding or used Angel investors or anything like
that, but just simply been able to pick my uncle's brain about,
hey man, what do you think about this?
Or have you ever had this happen to you before?
Like when an employee does this, what was your response?
Like simply having somebody like that that's done it before that
you can pick their brain on like that is incredibly monumental,
so. Anybody want to do anything new
in their life that they don't have prior experience with?
Lean on people that have been doing it, that are doing it, and
then just take advantage of that for sure.
Absolutely, 100%. So let's talk a little bit about
running, man. You've got some pretty lofty
goals when it comes to endurance running here in the near future.
Actually before we talk about running, I definitely like hold
that thought, let's round out this talk of business real quick
with you've got a new product in the works, are you at liberty to
tell about that much you want to keep that under wraps?
No. No, actually, I already talked
about it on social. You can join the wait list.
Wait list. People get early access.
Yeah. So the new product is called
Shameless Plug. It's called true endurance.
It's a preworkout. It's very different than the
red. So while they're both my babies,
so understand that, like these products.
What's really I feel is really different with these products
than other supplements is that they're one their practitioner
backed, which generally most like nutritional therapists like
I am, they they do like you know, hormone, adrenal balance,
you know, adrenal health, like those kinds of supplements and
stuff like that. They're not really like into the
performance game and then a lot of people that are in
performance game, you know, the game there.
They tend to just white label right Like so they'll just like
find a formula they know works in the they're more selling
there's themselves in the in the icon than the actual supplement.
Whereas with me like I private labeled meaning like everything
that's in the bottle I measured with a little scale.
At home I call it my cocaine scale and I got white powder all
over the room and I'm like I hope a cop doesn't knock on the
door because this is going to be questionable so.
The pre workout itself is hand formulated by me.
It's a zero stem. It's zero caffeine, which I'm
very proud of. So I have ADHD so like I
caffeinated products make me drowsy.
So like I can't drink normal pre workout.
I've never been able to like I can drink a monster and fall
asleep like I've done it before. Caffeine, naps is what they're
called. It's like I needed something
that would give me mental focus, clean energy, not stimulate me
because it doesn't work the same.
And also, you know, blood curdling pumps and all that fun
stuff that you get. And so I formulated this, you
know to give that without any of the negatives of like a high
stem product. And so it's energized by Alpha
GPC Lion's Main and beta hydroxybetarate in the form of
sodium and magnesium, but it also has potassium.
So it's a full electrolyte complex.
It's got beetroot, a good clinical dose of L citrulline. 6
grams, 6 grams, 6 grams, over half a gram of sodium full
electrolyte complex. It's got 2 grams of beet root to
aid and that nitric oxide flow. Cardiovascular health.
The thing I like about it the most honestly is like it's a pre
workout but like it's like a good health supplement to like
people are going to get healthy benefits outside of the gym from
taking this every day when they go to workout and like I I think
that's a really cool thought but it's all natural.
Everything's clinically dosed like there's over, there's a
gram of alpha GPC, which is like close to what they use to like
help with like Alzheimer's, like there's a lot of it in there.
And so I was really, really intentional about making sure
that the doses were actually going to do something that could
be found in the literature so that it would give the full
benefits. Yeah.
And the energized Reds, you're kind of rebranding that a little
bit to be more marketed as like a recovery supplement?
It's not really designed to be a stimulant of sorts.
There's only like 35 milligrams of naturally occurring caffeine
in that one, right? Correct.
Yeah, in the matcha. So that's what was funny, was I
the whole reason I even got into Reds was because I noticed they
would help me not be a sore after my runs.
You know, I run like 20 miles or whatever and it would help me
not be a sore. That's why I made the Reds, cuz
I was like, man, people don't have a recovery product with
this. They all drink Bca's, which if
you look in the clinical literature, there's like really
no warrant for Bca's unless you're like in a very severe
deficit and you're not eating enough protein.
And maybe then, but even. Past that this, so people are
spending money on BCA's they're not really getting benefit from.
It's all placebo based off what we know, so like, but we know
antioxidants and freeing. You know the letting go of free
radicals is super, super potent in the literature it's very
obvious. And so I was like man, I want to
give a recovery supplement, but because it says energized
threads, people were like using it as a preworkout, which is
dope. That's fine if it makes you feel
focused. But it's definitely not built
for that. It's built for recovery.
And so yeah, I'm going to be making sure that the new labels
on cuz we just got a new logo too.
So I got to redo the whole label on the energized Reds in it in
the next couple orders. So I'm planning on like putting
recovery on there and making it known like OK, like this is the
recovery, this is the preworkout, etc.
I You watched that video clip of me kind of shouting out the
supplements I take and including you, right?
Yeah. I foamed a little bit on
differentiating between the Reds and the greens I was get.
I kept referring to it as like a green supplement as an example,
but it's not a green supplement. So what's the difference there?
Yeah, so greens are dehydrated vegetables mostly.
So the problem is with like greens and Reds, and this is
where it gets kind of murky, is that like greens, powders will
have some dehydrated fruit and Reds powders will have some
dehydrated vegetables. Right or or or.
There's some overlap for sure, yeah.
But I would say the difference is, is that the greens is more
focused on vitamins and minerals, whereas the fruit ones
are more based on antioxidant profile from what I've seen.
Although there could be an argument made that there's a lot
of fat soluble vitamins and vegetables.
And so you're taking the 0 Fat greens product.
Like are you really absorbing those things, you know,
etcetera, etcetera. My biggest hiccup too is like.
With most Reds and greens powders, they're not clinically
dosed like that's my big stick is like everything I make is
clinically dosed. Meaning like I take hours and
hours and hours and I dig through the research and I go
okay, what is the most effective dose of these ingredients?
And I don't skimp on that just to make a product and you get a
lot of greens and Reds powders and they have 100 milligrams of
this and 100 milligrams of that and it looks cool on the label,
right, like you you're like, oh, I'm paying 50 bucks.
There's like 1000 things is I don't need to eat salad anymore.
I can just take a scoop of greens.
But it's like you got to think 100 milligrams of like broccoli
powder is nothing. Like it's nothing but it looks
cool, right. And so like if you look at the
Reds, you're going to see six ingredients, but you're going to
see either 300 milligrams to over a gram of each, right,
Because I want to put an amount that's actually going to do
something for you in it. But yes, like the the big
difference there I would say is like the clinical dosage.
As well as like just the overall impact that it has, because I
wouldn't say greens are good for recovery.
Again, they're more of just like a vitamin mineral kind of thing.
But like the Reds, it's the antioxidants that really come
into play for me because I think we can get all our vitamins and
minerals from meat like anybody on keto, while this product
doesn't say the word keto on it anywhere, it's very much
ketogenic friendly. And the idea behind that was
like we get plenty of vitamins and minerals from the food we
eat. Like I don't need to facilitate
that, but we do lower our carbs so we don't get a lot of
antioxidants. We get some from meat from not a
lot. So if we have somebody that's
trying to be like an above average athlete, right, I want
to give them the chance to recover without having to worry
about the excess sugar that would come, you know, because
you I think, I think the antioxidants in my like a scoop
of antioxidants in my product, I I did the numbers once and it
was like, I don't know, like 15 servings of blueberries.
They get the exact same antioxidant profile that you get
in one scoop of Reds with 0 grams of sugar not just added
but zero. Total.
Yeah. So no, that's good, man.
And what? You're sweetening with stevia,
so no issues there. What have you had that Ag One
product like the they rebranded. It was a I forget what it used
to be called, but now it's Ag ones, the one that all these
podcasters are sponsored by. Athletic greens.
Have you ever had that? I've never had it, but like, I
see the ads at the gym all the time and all I can think is
like, dude, their marketing team is savage, man.
They're definitely getting the word out there.
And I don't know, like people rave about it and I've had it,
but I've never really felt a difference from it.
And they always say, hey, you got to be consistent with using
it for like 90 days. But like how much of that?
Just simply marketing too, Like you got to have it for 90 days,
so they get at least three months worth of subscription out
of you. But I don't know, maybe it's
great, but I personally can't tell.
Anything different, it turns my poop green.
I guess that's a huge benefit there and paying for green poop,
you know? Yeah, you should do like a
progress photo of your bowels with your with your bodybuilding
update. Like, oh, they're green today.
I don't, I don't use it. I mean I didn't really feel like
most time I take that stuff I just like it gives me GI
distress. So I don't really use that
stuff. But I don't get any GI distress
with your product too, which is nice and like with most pre
workouts. I most certainly get some Giada
stress, largely because of the stimulants that are in it and
then just a lot of crap ingredients.
I don't get that at all with your stuff, which I appreciate,
and your stuff mixes really well.
Like I'll mix it up and a lot of times the natural greens and
Reds, powders, they don't mix worth a damn and they're gross,
but yours is pretty legit, man like, it tastes good, it mixes
well and I feel pretty good, so. Not to sound like I'm fluffing
your feathers too much, but I do like it for sure.
Appreciate that. What did you think of the pre
work? Because you've had samples,
you've tried it more than anybody really so.
No, it's good man. I definitely feel the the itchy
sensation with the pre workout and I'm not normally a huge fan
of that. But it wasn't like like it
seemed to be pretty short lived like it hit me and then the
itchy feeling was gone, like it didn't last very long, which I
like, like I don't like it to last very long.
But I could certainly feel that. And then I felt like I got a
great pump, like I had energy. So is it?
Is there any naturally occurring caffeine in the pre work?
I don't know. No, there's zero, literally zero
caffeine in the pre workout whatsoever.
And I like the itchy because that's from the beta Alanine and
most products put 3 grams and I put 1.5 intentionally so it
didn't last that long. But you still got the benefits
of the beta Alan, because I hate the itch too.
Yeah, some people love it, but man, drives me crazy.
I'm not a fan. But yeah, no, I like it.
And then I've been mixing them together, so I put it put them
together and that was pretty good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Today, You look pretty swollen
today because you said. Yeah.
You said there's 500 milligrams of sodium in each one, right?
Correct. So I had an extra 1000
milligrams total, which is good. Very cool, man.
All right, Now running. Let's talk about running.
So you've got the plans for the Ultra, multiple Ultra events.
In the in the near future what what are you training for?
You said you start training in the next two weeks.
Yeah, so my my official training running season starts on Monday.
And what is that going to entail?
So it's going to entail a slow. So right now I'm running right
now from a running standpoint, so I running about 30 miles a
week right now and so like I'll start tapering up to about 60
miles a week. So like next week will probably
be like 40-45 then it'll be 50 then 55 then 60 and then I'll
hold 6560 ish miles. Up until I peak, which when I
peak I'm going to be doing, it'll be a 50 mile March, so I'm
going to go. I figured I'm walking so I can
push the mileage a little bit. So I'll probably get up to like
100 miles that week and then two weeks after that is my first
race. So that in terms of running it's
just the tapering up, getting in more longer distance runs my my
speed workouts change a little bit.
They're not as, they're not as like like.
I don't do a lot of like. Quarter mile intervals that I do
right now, I'll do a lot of Yassos, I'll do a lot of tempo
runs, things that are longer distance.
And then my strength training is very bodybuilding, bodybuilding,
split right now it's very like compound, you know, separate
everything like in general. But when I get into the running
season, I have to be mindful of too much weight on my body
compared to the increase in mileage.
So I'll probably pick four compound movements like squat.
Overhead press, bench press and hack squats and I'll probably do
those four things once a week. Four sets of eight, four sets of
10, and then the rest of my movements will be very full body
motion, functional fitness, things like that to help just
support the running. Gotcha.
So you're not going to be in peak week at the same time for
the 50 mile March. I'm going to be in peak week for
bodybuilding competition the following weekend.
You're going to be in peak week for your ultra the following two
week because your peak week's 2 week peak time, right?
So with you increasing mileage week after week after week going
forward, is that going to impact your nutrition?
Because like with my prep, you know I'm, I'm definitely
manipulating my macros every single week, but my training is
not really changing that much. I am increasing cardiograds, but
my actual training is not changing much.
So when you're gearing up for a run.
Are you changing much nutritionally?
Like are you changing your macros, your caloric intake, The
macro distribution? Are you leaving that pretty well
constant and just up in the mileage?
Yeah. So the first, the first probably
four to six weeks, I haven't decided.
It really depends on I got to look at my calories and and dial
it in a little bit. But probably the first four to
six weeks, I'll be in about a 500 calorie deficit and I'll do
that intentionally. So it'll go up a little because
as my mileage goes up, I burn more calories.
And so I'm going to have to watch that and like increase my
food accordingly because. I've noticed that if you're in a
deficit deeper than that with the running, your body just
puckers out. It's better to lose fat slower
over a gradual period of time, like a pound or half a pound a
week over the course of 6 to 12 weeks, rather than, you know, a
£2.00 a week or you know, to even 10% of my body weight.
So, so you want to stay in a deficit, but you just want to
increase your intake as your mileage is increasing so that.
The amount of your deficit never really exceeds that baseline.
Correct? Correct.
Makes sense. So I'll do that for the first
six weeks and then once that happens, I'll move it up to
about a 250 calorie deficit. I'll do that for another four
weeks or so and then about four to five weeks before my first
race, I'll go to maintenance and I'll just stay at maintenance.
And and that will be interesting because I've I have some big
races coming up and the amount of mileage I'm going to run,
I've never ran before. So I have a feeling this is what
a lot of roads run into. I'm not going to be able to eat
my maintenance like the amount of calories I'm burning, I'm
just talking about to eat it. And so that's going to be an
interesting time for me because I'm just going to be just I'm
just be eating as much as I possibly can Like tracking might
unless just to make sure I'm eating enough like it might go
out the window just because like I have to eat more than I could
possibly. So it's just about getting food
in. So that'll be interesting.
I'm trying to figure out how to be more strategic about that.
Like, I want to proactively plan for that because I've never
experienced that before. I don't want to just go into it
and be like, oh, how many keto bricks I can eat in a day kind
of thing. I want to be, you know,
intentional with it. Because event point like when
you're doing mileage for training for like that 250 mile
or 240 mile, you can put in how many miles a week roughly?
180 to 100 somewhere in there. Yeah.
So at 100 miles a week, I mean in order to hit maintenance
intake. From a caloric standpoint,
you're going to be at like, what, 5-6 thousand counters,
yeah? Like 5000 a day if I including
the cross training, like 5000 a day every day.
And the problem with that is some people might be listening
like man, I could do that, but it's like you understand, like
it's that. For time is hard, like over a
long period of time. And running that far is like
especially like easy pace, long distances is extremely appetite
suppressing. So it's super hard.
Like most of the time during my my running season, I'm force
feeding myself a lot, yeah. That's not good.
Like, have you ever, I mean, you probably don't want to be like a
surplus because then you're just gonna have, like extra weights
on and your body's just gonna have too much energy coming in
to kind of, like be functioning at a, you know, well, old
machine status, so, so-called. So, like, yeah, because they
kind of manipulate some things on the fly, man.
Yeah, yeah, it sometimes it changes day-to-day.
Like I know. Like for CUZ for example, right?
Like, I know. Generally on average a human run
burns about 100 calories per mile.
So sometimes what I'll do, and this has worked really well for
me in the past, is I had like my base, So I know like okay, 2500
calories is my base. Like if I don't eat anything, if
I don't work out, I know I burn about 2500 calories a day just
existing. And then whatever mileage I'm
running that day, I'll just times that by 100 and then put
that on top of my food. And then if I work out I'll just
add like an extra 100 or something like that, so like.
Mondays I work out and I run 6 miles, so I'll add 700 to my
2500 and that's like my maintenance.
But you got to think like, yeah, like you get up to 100 miles a
week. You're running like 15 miles a
day. So it's 1500 plus the hundred or
two from the lifting, which is like 17 on top of the 2500.
And you're doing that every single day.
Yeah, it gets, it gets pretty wild from a caloric standpoint
for sure. Yeah, it's pretty well, yeah.
And you don't have any issues with your joints running that
much mileage a week. Like no issues there.
No, no issues at all. I we actually talked about this
a couple days ago. I really don't think it's a I
don't think it's a running issue.
Like I think joints is a malnutrition like a bad
nutrition. I say amount because there's
plenty of runners eat a lot of calories and stuff.
Joint problems. I think it's bad form.
I think it's bad shoes and I think it's lack of nutrition and
chronic cortisol. I think they're cortisol.
Leach is too much because they either run too much they don't
strength train so their joints get super stressed.
And like the ketogenic world, the conversation of carbs comes
up because of the amount of cortisol produced from all the
running. And so like, I think that's more
of an issue is the cortisol. And just like form, I don't
really think it's like the mileage itself that's the
problem. It's like OK, but what context
are you running those miles in? So this is a good segue here
talking about cortisol, keygen diet.
Yeah. Running.
Yeah. You used to be hardcore strict,
like no excess carbs other than trace carbs you were consuming.
Now you're incorporating more carbs with your running.
I mean, you're still producing ketones.
Like I would still, I would argue that you're still
definitely in a ketotic state because I mean the amount of
carbs you are consuming in the amount of energy you're
expending, like you're definitely still producing and
using fat and ketones, but like, what have you noticed?
Like at what point did you find that you had to incorporate
carbs? To minimize.
Cortisol levels, Yeah, that's a good question.
And before I answer, I want to just preface like don't listen
to this and just like go eat like a funnel cake cuz that's
not the even remotely the same conversation.
But I do think it would be advantageous for a lot of people
that want to get in the running that do want to be ketogenic,
so. About I started running and I
was strict Keto. I can remember we recorded a
podcast like right after my show or the the photo shoot during
COVID and I was like, I'm going to be a runner and I was like
I'm going to be a 0 car runner. I remember that and you were
like. Now look at Jason, the car
behind Great Rd. April fools now, so about
honestly, at first it went great, like my runs were great,
I was progressing well. And then all of a sudden I
started to notice that, like my heart rate.
Was higher at the same pace like by like 5 beats.
Like nothing drastic, but like I noticed it and then it got to 10
and then it got to 15. And then I started noticing when
I was walking around throughout the day, my resting heart rate
was like 8090. And I'm like, this is weird, but
I was like, OK, maybe it's just my body adjusting.
So I took a couple days off. I remember one time I took a
whole week off of running. I was just like trying different
things. That didn't work And so then I
went into macro manipulations. I was like, maybe I'm not eating
enough, so I started eating a little bit more.
What was crazy though was I was still in deficit based off of
the calories. I was burning what I was eating,
but I was gaining weight like I was gaining weight.
I couldn't lose any weight. And then the resting heart rate
continued. How many calories were you
eating at that? Probably like 2728 hundred.
I was running 50 miles a week so I was burning like 3334 and.
You are How tall, 511? And you don't know what your
weight. Is right now 180 a 190?
You know I don't. OK, so you notice your heart
rate elevating. Yeah, yeah.
And. And I paid it on mine at first.
Like, I didn't even correlate that it could have been like a
cortisol issue. I didn't really understand that
at the time. And so I tried everything, man.
Like I started like, I tried alternate day fasting.
I tried Internet fasting. I tried no fasting at all.
I did 80% fat keto I did, you know. 50% protein, I did.
High protein. Maybe it was.
I wasn't getting enough protein so I wasn't recovering.
Like I I couldn't figure it out. And at the time I was so like
not going to do carbs. I was that I just didn't even
cross my mind. It was not an option.
Like there was something else missing.
Because at the time I was like, there's no situation in life
where you need these things and I was super adamant about it.
And so but then the heart rate kept getting worse and then all
of a sudden I got, I kept getting injuries and I was like,
why am I getting injuries? Like it was just one week, I had
my Achilles and then it was my hip and then it was.
I was like, what is going on? And this is what time frame?
This is, it would have been 20 when was the IT was 2020, right.
Was the COVID preps Yeah. Yeah.
So it had been fall of 2020 so
about because I started running in April of 2020 and this would
have been like, I think this was like October, November of 2020
and I started getting injuries and that was really annoying.
And then they would heal, but I would get them.
And then my runs were still getting bad.
Like I was running like what I would normally run, but like my
heart rate was like 20 beats per minute.
I had to walk all the time because I couldn't run at the
pace, the heart rate I needed. And all of a sudden I started to
get depressed. I started like to the point
where, like people around me were like, are you okay?
And I was like and I got to the point I was like, I don't think
I am okay. And then I started to really
connect, like the running was doing something to my body that
I wasn't able to fix. And that's when I really got put
in a weird position because for me, like, I've searched my whole
life to find something I'm good at.
And I really felt like I had found it, but it was like, but
now it's rejecting me. Like, why is it rejecting me?
And it was like I was in the situation where I was just like,
I've tried everything, you know? My resting heart rate got up to
my my resting. My fasted blood sugar got up to
like 120. I got, I have like, spreadsheets
on this, like. It got, it's like 120.
I was like prediabetic, but I was eating 10 total carbs a day.
It made, it literally made no sense physiologically to me.
And I was like, I'm going to have to give up running.
And one of my friends was like a good friend of ours, Frida.
She doesn't mind shutting her out there.
She was like, dude, just just try, just try carbs once and if
it doesn't work, move on. And at the time, I didn't want
to because, you know, I was proud of the whole, you know, I
was three years strict keto, like you don't need it to build.
Yeah, I was really proud of that and it was really.
I also didn't want to let other people down, right?
Like, there's other people in this face that I respect that,
You know, I was, they knew I was trying to do the zero carb and
like, there's people I didn't want to let down.
It was really hard. Honestly.
It was me doing. This was a big moment for me to
like, believe in myself and, like, have confidence and take a
risk. And if the risk didn't work, it
didn't work. So I decided to try some.
I did. I just did targeted carbs.
It was 50 grams total right after my run.
And I remember I did it the first day with Acorn Squash
because I was a little scared. And I woke up the next morning
and my blood sugar was in the 90s.
It was the first time I've been in the 90s in months.
And I was like, whoa, OK, I went on a run.
The run was still terrible, but I had sweet potato right
afterwards and my blood sugar, two hours of the sweet potato
was 79, which tripped me out because I was like, this makes
no sense. This should have skyrocketed my
blood sugar. Like, why is it?
2. Hours, two hours post perennial.
And I was like, why'd this happen?
Which sent me down this rabbit hole of literature.
And then I kept doing it and my blood sugar started to get back
into the 70s and my ketones even went up and I was like, this is
wild. And then my runs slowly started
to get better. And I literally, since I started
doing that, I have not gotten injury and injury from a run
like a not one since I started doing that.
And So what I found was that the, the, the cortisol response
from running is really intense and people often don't think
about it because. Not only is the the the bout of
exercise stressful itself because it's constant pounding
on joints and body, but the glycogen replenishment is also
stressful because your body has to leach cortisol for
gluconeogenesis, which is fine when you know other things are
going on, but when the running's added to it, it's really a lot.
And then top on that I'm, you know, I think I would like to
say for a runner I've got a good good frame on me muscular wise,
I cross train and that's another glycogen depleting thing.
And you, I think you're running 50 miles a week and lifting four
or five times a week. I mean your body literally
doesn't get a break, especially if you're somebody that
genetically needs more rest period than others.
And there's a lot of factors, but just the cortisol was
running rampant. And So what was happening was
when I ate the carbohydrates, they weren't like like 50 grams
of carbs, even 200 grams of carbs, it's like it's like 800
calories, right? If I'm burning 35104 thousand on
a long day where I would, let's say I'd eat 100 and 5200 grams
of carbs, it would be like on a. A 24 mile run or like a really
intense tempo day, I mean the amount of calories, it's
nothing. It's really nothing calorically.
So then what is it doing for me? Because it's not my main energy
source. So what I've what's happening
is, is when insulin rises it suppresses cortisol because the
whole reason cortisol like our body stress response is to raise
cortisol to stimulate sugar creation to give us the quick
energy to get out of the situation.
Right. Same with like lifting.
Like when you look super heavy, like it's super glycolytic
because your body's like quick energy, get out of the
situation, heavy squat, whatever.
And so when that's chronically leaking due to like, not being
able to catch up, it's a problem.
So when you introduce the exogenous carbohydrates, it
suppresses the cortisol and lets your body tap back into fat
burning. Now obviously there's a lot of
nuance there because. What's the spillover amount?
How active are you? Are you managing the other
things in your life, right? Like are you sleeping well?
Are you eating enough? Are you resting enough?
Is your training routine proper? So it's not a super like, simple
discussion, but like, I do know that like ketogenic runners,
they have to be more mindful of the hormone balance and other
types of athletes. Not because running is more
hardcore or harder, it's just that the type of the type of
movement is more stressful on the body overall.
Gotcha. Out of curiosity, do you feel
like you are more stressed now than you were at that point in
your life, like 2020? Like is your sleep better now?
Is your stress levels lower now? Like how would you compare your
lifestyle factors now compared to then when you were getting
all the injuries? It might be hard to believe
because everybody's like COVID. I know what he's about to say.
No, literally my life's way more stressful now.
Yeah, because like during well, during COVID, like, you know, I
had, I had one company that was the only thing I was doing.
Ashley was pregnant and she was on maternity, you know, a lot of
it. She was on maternity.
So she was home all day and we couldn't leave the house.
And so like, I wasn't doing anything but like chilling on
social media. My life was like super chill and
like I already worked from home anyway.
So like, I was fine. Like I honestly had nothing.
I was kind of bored to be honest, during COVID, Like COVID
was a really weird time for me because like.
It really exacerbated like the laziness in my life, cuz I was
like, I don't even know what to do with myself right now.
Yeah, I'm way more stressed out now in terms of like
responsibility. I have a child now, you know, I
have. I have two companies.
I also do other things. You know, we're moving, like all
this stuff's happening, but like my I can regulate my body better
just because I understand my nutrition better and rest and
stuff. But like, yeah, and.
Now, like when you're doing a run, you're typically only
including the carbohydrates post run.
If you run X amount of miles or how do you kind of structure
that? So X amount of miles or
intensity. So like for example like
yesterday we did 4 yassos, right?
That's not like 4 miles is not enough for me to feel like I
shouldn't be ketogenic that day like those, like my body can
deal with that generally. But like let's say like
yesterday would have been like 10 miles with like 10 yassos.
I would have, I would have had carbs, I would have had like
generally I try to stick with like fruit and tubers.
I'll have white rice like like the only grain I'll eat.
Just because it's glutenfree and it's easily digestible and it
doesn't bother me at all. But that's like the that would
be a time like really intense tempos plus the cross training,
right? Because typically on Mondays I
destroyed my legs. I told you that.
So like, I'll run 10 miles and you know, eight of those will be
at the intensity that you and I ran those Yassos at.
And then I'll go in the gym 2 hours later and I'll rip my legs
apart. And so that would be a day that
I would, I would cycle out. And then like my long run day,
so like anytime that I run over, I would say over 1/2 marathon,
so anytime my miles get over 12, my carbs are going to go up to
replenish the glycogen that. Might be how high does it go up?
Like if you run a half marathon, how many carbs?
How many grams of carbs you? Have it really depends on the
the intensity so like the higher the higher I get the higher I'll
go. So like I think the the minimum
on a day like that I found works because if you only eat that's
what I found like there's like a threshold so like.
If I only eat 50 total carbs, it's really not enough to do
anything. It's not really solving the
problem I find like on a what I would call like a easier long
run, probably like 100 and 2000 and 25 and then the highest I've
gone. I didn't experiment a couple
weeks ago, but that doesn't count.
What was the experiment? I did a week of high carb
running cuz I wanted to know like.
Oh, I saw that you were doing like you were trying to eat like
traditional Distance Runner wouldn't eat.
And how'd that go? It was.
It was there was. It taught me some things, but I
hated it. I hated every second of it, cuz
I'd never. I got into running after being
ketogenic, so I didn't know what it was like to eat high carbs.
So I was doing like 350 grams a day.
Yeah, I got to 400 once. And the first day it was fine,
which was like and my blood sugar was like in the 80s after
meals. And I was like, man, I'm really
metabolically flexible, my body soaking these up, okay.
So what that taught me was like on my really intense days, I can
actually benefit from like 200 grams 250.
But what I noticed was like after doing it for three days
straight, I started to feel like a total piece of garbage, Like,
I felt terrible. I would wake up in the morning
and have to eat to feel awake. And I it brought me back to like
high school. Which is funny because like when
you're in high school, you like, you have all, like that puberty
energy and stuff. And so you don't really think
about, like, how you felt. But like, I remember, like
waking up and dragging myself to the kitchen table and like
eating a bowl of Captain Crunch and finally after finishing it,
like waking up. And it's like, I never
associated that with being dependent on carbs for my
energy. So I definitely noticed like
doing it too many days consecutively created a
dependency. What was your like?
Mental clarity like? The first day it was fine, but
after that it was trash. It was trash.
The only the two bit effects I got, what I did know, I ran
every day that week. So it definitely like gave me
the energy to do things, but like, my cognitive function was
really bad. Without it I had no energy at
all, so my body was extremely like exogenous fuel dependent,
which was a problem so I didn't you had to eat all the time.
What about? Digestion was fine, but that's
only because I did break a few rules.
I would not eat grains or I wouldn't eat gluten.
I wasn't going to eat processed food.
So like, I was like getting all my carbs from like rice and
sweet potatoes and like cassava based like chips and stuff like
Sieta chips, like. I was being really, really like
intentional because I refuse. Like I'm not going to eat a
Twinkie just for a YouTube video.
It's not how I haven't had Twinkie in seven years.
It's not going to happen. So like that kind of helped me
with the digestion, cuz I didn't really.
I just ate more, more of the foods I generally eat.
I didn't, like, do other things just for the sake of the video.
I wasn't willing to do that. So that helps with the digestion
portion for sure, but I'd never do it again.
Yeah, yeah. That's does not sound pleasant.
Yeah, it wasn't fun. All right, so I asked you this
the other day. I am not a runner at all, like I
don't even like running. But what would I need to do as a
runner on a strict ketogenic diet to showcase that you can
perform at a high level with endurance running in the
complete absence of carbohydrates?
So what would I need to do to prove that to you?
Wait to prove it to me? Or how do I think you should go
about trying it? Like I like for me, I just want
to showcase to people they can compete at a high level in the
complete absence of carbohydrates.
And I get there's a lot of new ones.
Everybody's a little bit different, but I've tried to do
that with bodybuilding because that's the support that
traditionally is viewed as having to require carbohydrates
to excel at. And I've, I feel like I've
dispelled that myth. What would I have to do in the
world of running to dispel that myth?
Well, when I think about that, I think about like what what is,
what would, what do you consider high performing.
So like for example, right like. I think a good a good test would
be like you fat adapting training properly.
That means like understanding like the nuance of like how many
miles you should run versus your strength training, like figuring
all that out in a way that gives your body time to recover and
replenish glycogen, which I think for you because
genetically you just recover really fast, I think you
actually have a benefit there. But I think like doing like an
ultra at like an easy pace fasted would be a great
statement of like, hey, like you don't like like Mike's done
that, he's done 100 mile completely fasted.
Like, that's savagery, right? Like that's that's the fat
adaptation at its finest. What really gets interesting is
like if you start like getting in like the top 5% of a race,
like over 50 because like a 10K, if you trained and you ran a 10K
or a half marathon, you could do it completely fast.
I have no doubt, especially with your genetics and your effort
and your willingness. You could do that completely
fast. You could probably crack two
hours easy, completely fast. Well, my marathon I did
completely fast, but that was having the first, like that was
the first time I'd run in seven years, part of that.
So I didn't place that well cuz my feet were conditioned.
But if I go and do like the Moab 240 and I kick ass with it with
zero carbs, like is that going to open your eyes?
Well, I'm going to be, I'm going to be interested.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm trying to figure out like, cuz I don't want to be like, I
don't think it's possible because like the reality is, is
that. Even though I have my own
personal experience, I'm still very much an amateur at this.
Like I plan on going pro this year, Wink, wink, hint, hint.
But like I'm not a pro yet and so like I'm not going to go
there and be like this is impossible.
I know that it was impossible for me.
The what what I. Was going to do.
What do you have to do to be a professional runner?
Like what criteria is that? I don't know, but I figured if I
just win the Coco Donut 250, they don't really have anything
to say to me. I don't know exactly what it
means to be a pro. I think you have to get on the
pedestal once. I think like a distant, like an
old, like a professional ultra runner.
I think that you have to either. I think it's a place in the top
three of any ultra event and obviously if someone's listening
and and I don't know the exact nuances and you do, please
e-mail me. I'd love to hear it.
But an ultra event is defined as anything greater than a
marathon. Correct.
Anything over 26 point. But in the world of ultra
runners like, they kind of probably turn their nose up to
anything less than at least 50 miles.
Yeah, there's a saying. They say.
What is it? What is the saying?
It's like, Oh yeah, ultra runners.
Because marathons are for sissies and true sports only
start when you go into Oregon. Failure.
OK, I like that. So what is that typically like
50 miles and up is you know the the undisclosed true ultra
distances. Yeah, yeah, like I would.
I would, I would be really impressed if you went to like a
really. I wouldn't say I wouldn't do
like a well known 50 mile because until you like you've
trained for years it's going to be hard to place really high.
Like I would say I'm pretty genetically gifted for ultra
running like just based off of my observations of like my
experience with training and in my races.
But even me, like I have ways to go like I I taught I placed in
the top 15 anytime I race but like.
The top three, the top, the 1st place is like I'm light years
behind that. I have years of training behind
before, but I would say like find like a good.
I would say find like a good 50 miler that has average
competition and then try to do it faster than see how fast you
can do it. That that would intrigue me a
lot. Yeah, I feel like as long as I
get my feet conditioned to M rocks, all my like my feet are
my Achilles heel. You know, that's what I find
interesting though. So, like, because we talked
about that and I feel like what what's going to interest me?
And here's the thing, too is like, I want to, I don't want
you to be wrong. Like, that's the thing.
Like, I want you to prove me wrong.
Like it would fascinate me and it would make me look at my
nutrition because, like, I love the ketogenic diet.
Like if I went back to strict bodybuilding, I would eliminate
the cycling. Like I would because I know I
don't need it. Right.
Like, I only do this because I feel like it's out of necessity.
Plus it's helped me have a better relationship with like
whole food carbs. Like I'm not scared of tubers
anymore. I'm not like, you know.
Anybody to be scared of any food group.
Like I don't. I'm not an advocate for strict
keto because I'm fearful of carbohydrates, you know, like I
don't want anybody to be fearful of any food group.
Yeah, but like, you know, if you prove me wrong, I mean freaking
savage like I'm I'm, I'm game for it.
But like with your feet. So like when you say your feet
or your problem, what'll interest me is once your feet
are not the problem and you're able to actually train at a high
level as a runner, how is your body going to?
Because you don't know what you don't know what your body does
at. Like like full intense training
as a runner where your feet are fine.
We you don't know what your muscles do.
You don't know how they because we were talking about like
energy and distance. And I think a lot of people when
they think of energy, especially on a key drink diet, because
mental cognitive function is always emphasized, which is
great. We think of Oh well, when I was
running I always felt energy like I felt awake, like I was
able to keep going. But that's not like the energy
that I think runners only consider.
Like it's yeah, mental cognitive function.
Can I focus on what I'm doing. But it's like, can my muscles
actually fire properly? Like are my muscle fibers fired?
Because if even if it's gycogen sparing, if you're running 50
miles at it over anaerobic pace, right over your aerobic
threshold. So like you're, you know, for me
example, if I'm running a. 50 mile or at 160 beats per minute,
I'm tapping in the glycogen. I'll be it not as much as
another runner. So eventually I'm going to go
into a really dangerous place glycogen wise that happens.
My muscles will stop firing. If they stop firing I'm going to
have to slow down. So I can't be competitive at
that point. So the question is, is what can
I do to keep my glycogen above that threshold so that I can
continue to be competitive, right.
So exact bit of talks about this, he's like most ketogenic
low carb ultra runners whereas like.
High carb runners, and I think this is important too, is like
prefacing, like the difference, the contrast, because I think
when ketogenic people hear 150 carbs, they're like, whoa, I
think I ate 100 and like my last 50 miler I placed twelve.
I did it in nine hours and 3 minutes.
My watch time was 858 but we're not going to talk about that.
But and I ate 150 carbs that entire race.
I, I, I I tracked it all beforehand.
I knew exactly what I was going to do.
My decision was on point for that.
That sounds like a lot to someone that's strict keto.
But like I had people that I knew in that race that ate 1000
grams of carbs during that run and I beat them right.
And so like, I didn't eat the carbs because they're my main
fuel source. I did it just to keep the
glycogen drip from bottoming me, bottoming me out.
And so I think that that that's also a little bit different, but
like, so for example, like. Low carb peogenic runner is
going to shoot for 20 to 40 grams of carbs an hour, which is
like, I mean, if you're burning 700 calories running 7 miles an
hour faster than that, if you're faster and you're eating 20
carbs, it's like what, 80 calories?
It's nothing. It's nothing.
Yeah, no, I totally agree. Like all these low carb known
runners like you might make Night Zach better.
Like the amount of carbohydrates are consuming in the amount that
they're expending. Like they're definitely still in
a fat burning state like nobody's.
Nobody should be contesting that whatsoever.
Like, I have mad respect for them for sure.
I'm just curious to see if it can be optimized, you know,
maintaining 20 grams total carbs, you know, for the day.
Like, I'm kind of curious to see if that's the case because
everything's coming out now from a research standpoint, showcases
that, hey, look, your body is going to be able to tap into and
assimilate whatever you give it and do so optimally.
That's kind of a strange way to say that.
So your body is very adapt, like it's going to adjust and use
what you give it as a substrate for fuel.
And if you allow yourself to fully adapt from a fan and
ketone standpoint, it can become increasingly efficient at using
that as their primary fuel source.
That's why I've been able to continue to excel in this world
bodybuilding having been strict keto for eight years.
I am not a runner by trade by any means, but I'm curious is if
I was to start running as a primary modality for training
if. Me gradually scaling that up, my
body, they would just continue to acclimate to that expenditure
in a strict keto. Not that the 150 grams is not
strict keto, because again, the amount that you're burning is
still within the realms of what your body's using as a
substrate. But I'm curious to see if my
body can maintain high levels of optimal performance at those
higher distances without the carb.
You know, without the strategic increases in carbs.
You know, like, I'm just curious.
But again, I'm not a runner, so I don't even know if I don't
even know if I care enough to try.
It is the thing. So it's OK Well, actually, so so
let me ask you a question because I'm interested.
So, like, if you decide to actually get into it, if you get
to a point where like like you text me like, dude, I'm feeling
this way and I'm like, bro, you need some carbs.
Are you really? You're not you.
You would just quit running, right?
Like, if you're like, where would you try it?
Well, again, I'm not a runner. So like, it's not it's not
important to me to be a world class runner.
I want to be a world class natural bodybuilder.
So like. Yeah, and I don't feel like I
would want to go that route because it's at that point, if
I'm running that much, it's going to hinder my bodybuilding
endeavors. Yeah, you know, so like there's
that catch 22 as well. But if I ever like retired from
natural bodybuilding, said Okay, What's the next thing?
Let's get into ultra endurance ring and that became my main
thing then. Then I would like to optimize
for that and be competitive with the other elites in that space
doing what I do nutritionally so.
So yeah, man, but I don't know. We'll see.
Like I can see. Honestly, I can see myself
getting more into like these obstacle course races that I can
ultra endurance events. But I have a lot of respect for
every sport and everything that it does.
It's just a matter of what people want to, you know,
pursue. I think obstacle courses are a
different animal because like, I think honestly, honestly, like
just right off the top of my head.
Thinking about it, I think that your approach right now would do
great for obstacle courses because.
You take breaks, you're not constantly running.
You're using different muscle groups, which gives the other
ones breaks and times to recuperate.
Generally obstacle course races, unless you do like the crazy
Ultra Spartans, they're only like 8 miles, so they're not
like it's not the end of the world.
I have no doubt that if you like that, yeah, you probably be
extremely competitive at that point because like, it's
interesting they did. I was listening to a podcast and
I forget his name. Knox.
Knox, I think. The doctor out of Australia,
he's really like a pioneer in the low carb stuff.
You. Yeah.
Yeah, no, yeah. They did a study on runners and
it was really I was fascinated. I was like, yeah.
And so they did like 1/2 marathon and like they noticed
no drop in performance with low carb athletes and I was like
sick. Let's go higher.
No, no, they said that that they.
I guess some people just don't understand.
Like some of the. I don't want to say they don't
understand because that's just not true.
But like what's the word I'm looking for.
There's a lot of of of. Ignorance in terms of just not
knowing that stupidity. But just like ignorance of like
how fuel systems can work sometimes, because the idea is,
Oh well, if we do a shorter distance, that should be
inhibited by a low carb diet because there's not enough sugar
there. But we know that's not true
because a shorter distance means that they have to actually tap
into less glycogen even at a harder effort.
So it makes sense that a low carb athlete, if you start to go
from 1/2 marathon, if someone can run a half marathon and an
intense pace on zero carbs, they can do a 10K and intense space
on zero carbs they can do a 5K. So that's not really what
intrusive. That's what the study did.
And I was like, Dang it. What really interests me is
like, OK, what happens when you go farther?
Like what happens to their performance at that point?
Like what happens as they go higher?
And I do agree like like these people that are doing 250 mile
races, they're not doing 250 mile weeks in preparation for
that race. Like you said, they're doing 100
mile weeks. And I feel like there's a
massive difference there. Like when you are, when your
body is acclimated from a fuel substrate standpoint at 100
miles a week, then all sudden you throw 250 miles at it, like
things are going to be different.
So I don't really know what that would look like.
Maybe in order to optimize for sticking to a lower carb
approach with a 250 mile ultra you know race you need to be
doing 250 miles a week with low carbs, you know that kind of
build up to that I don't know. But I would imagine that start
screwing your joints. And everything.
Yeah, I would recommend that. Yeah, like, I don't know.
I'm totally, you know, just shooting from the hip right now.
Like, I don't know what that would look like.
And again, like there's things that I personally prefer more so
than running. Like, I want to get the jiu
jitsu at some point. Like, I'm kind of dabble with it
now, but I want to make that something I excel at and you
know, you can only you don't have so much time.
So I can't be like the world's greatest natural bodybuilder.
Jiu Jitsu, Martial artist and runner, all at the same time.
You do anything, man, You're savage.
Just do it all, It's fine. This is true.
I'm a savage.
But yeah, no, I a lot of respect for everybody in every chosen
sport and field. And again like 150 grams of
carbs with the amount of miles that you're putting in at 150
miles or 100 miles a week or 80 miles a week like that to me is
still very much so fat dependent approach.
So like I'm not knocking that at all.
I'm just curious. As to if you can perform
optimally maintaining like 20 grams total carbs, you know,
throughout the entire week, yeah, but I guess I'll just have
to experiment and do it at some point.
You. Will you Will.
You're just like just you don't even tell me about it.
Just like, do it and then, like, send me a photo of first place
afterwards and go. Zero carbs, biatch.
And that would be my style for sure.
I love it. I love it.
Well, Jay, Shane, when is your first running coming up this
season? So my first run is September
9th. It's 100K so it's my first 62.
It's a 62 mile race. I haven't ran that far yet. 62
miles and that's the one the week after, two weeks after the
50 mile March, correct? Correct.
And you've got another one this year though, right?
Yeah. So and then I November, November
4th, I have my first 100 miler. OK.
And so that's going to be fun. They're both in West Virginia
and like the same mountain ranges, so that'll be exciting.
And then next year you're planning on the coca donut 250?
Yes, I got two races at the end of begin.
End of next year we should wait the end of the running season.
I have The Woodlands Marathon. I want to run a sub three hour I
want to qualify for. 26 miles there, Yeah, 26 point.
What are the 22? OK, I don't forget the point I.
Can't. I can't knock those people.
It's the worst part, man. The .2 is the worst part.
And then yeah. And when is that what month is?
That, that'll be March, Yeah. And then in May is the Coca
Donut 250. And that one, it's going to be
intense. And that's why I do, That's why
I have to do the 100, because if I can't do the 100, I'm not
going to shoot for the 250 yet. So, like, I need to like conquer
the 100. 1st so you're going to go from a 62 mile race to 100
mile race, to a marathon 26.2 to a 250 mile race.
That sounds pretty ballsy, man. Yeah, it's, you know, I I was, I
was a friend of ours, won the Cocodona 250 this year.
Mike. Yeah.
And he he was like behind by like 7070 miles 70.
He's like 78th place, like the first like 70 miles in.
And then he ended up taking them all in the last 180 miles and
winning and setting a new course record.
And I remember reading this is what kind of got me to do it,
cuz I was like trying to think of my goals for this year.
And I read that post and I was like.
I know he just did it, right? He just did it.
Yeah, he just did that. And you know, I was like, I know
I'm coming at this from a place of so much ignorance, like some
ultra runner and listening to this cuz they read the title
like oh that's right, Aikido. They're going to be like, dude,
250, you've never even ran 100. What are you thinking?
I understand that. I understand that this is a
really ballsy move. I understand that.
The odds are against me, but I like that.
I like that. There's, I like that.
There's even a part of me that doubts it because I get to tell
that part that it doesn't get to define who I am and what I
accomplished. And I like to show people that,
like, I'm just like an every, every average guy, you know,
walking around, have a daughter, have a family.
But like, I can do extraordinary things.
You can do extraordinary things. People can do extraordinary
things, even as average humans, if they're willing to believe
that they're capable and they're willing to take risks and so.
These are my risks this year and I'm excited to take them.
I'm scared. I'm scared tooth.
The idea of running 250 miles is to say it's not scary is.
That's in Arizona. It's in Arizona and Flagstaff
and it's hot and. Like that's beautiful though So.
Yeah, that'll be good. What may?
It'll be like 90 degrees. Yeah, it'll be torchy, but you
know. How many days are you gonna,
like plan on running for that? Like how many?
I think people are doing 1050 miles is typically like a four
day run, five day run. Yeah.
So again, I'm ballsy. I want to try and take the
course record because I told Mike I was going to because
that's just what I'm set on doing.
So that would be 68 hours, which is roughly 2 1/2 days.
Yeah. Yeah, I plan on honestly.
Like I told, I was talking to my wife and my mother about it, cuz
they both help with my crew and stuff.
And I told them let's plan for like 4 days.
Let's plan like. Let's let's let's give me 96
hours ish. 98 hours. Yeah, 96 hours.
Let's do that. I'll finish by then for sure.
But like I don't plan on being there for more than three days.
Yeah, I have it my way. So we'll see how it goes, man, I
have a lot to learn. I have a lot of mistakes to make
beforehand, but I got plenty of time to do those, so.
Are you gonna try and sleep or you just gonna run the whole way
through? No, I'm gonna you.
You have to. Because if you don't sleep like
your body will quit on you. Functionally, like so.
One thing I there's a couple things about training that are
going to change for me, right. So like up until now especially
with 50 miles like the, the thing that's different between
50 and 250 is obviously 200 miles but also like a 50 mile
or. It's kind of 1 stint.
Yeah, it's kind of like training like for a marathon, it's just
learning how to you, just your long runs are a lot longer, so
you can train your aerobic system to deal with that level
of time or that amount of time, whereas with this like.
Nutrition is a big problem, right?
Because it's not just about getting in like, you know, the
100 carbs or whatever. It's like you got to eat
calories like keto bricks, things like I got to eat
calories in general because, like, I'm not just burning, you
know, during a 50 mile, I'll burn 6000 calories.
On average, 250. You're burning like, I mean,
people lose like 20 pounds on these races, right?
And that's with eating and hydrating.
So like, I got to eat. I got to make sure.
So I got to know how to, like, eat big meals and then continue
to run. I got to.
Learn how to stay up. And I got to stay up till
midnight some nights and then sleep for 30 minutes and then
wake up and run. I got to run, sleep for 30
minutes, wake up and run. Like I have to do all these
kinds of things to like train myself mentally and train my
body to be able to do these things for an extended period of
time. Because it's not like, you know
you're going to sleep for 30 minutes after running 80 miles.
Get up and run another 40 and it's like you have to go that.
Train screws me up, man. Like like resting and then
getting stiff. Like I would almost want to just
run the way through like lower slower pace but no stops, just
like straight up running. Like I can wrap my head around
that more than I can sleeping for 30 minutes then getting up
and doing it again. Yeah, no, I think I thought
about that. It's crossed my mind a couple
times. Like cuz that's my 50 milers.
I'll like lay down like I can't move and like an hour and I'm
like how do these people just get back up and keep running?
Like I haven't. My body hasn't adapted to that
yet cuz but to be fair, I've never tried to make it.
Like, I've never, like, ran 50 miles, let my body seize up and
then force it to run another 10. I haven't done that.
And we know the body is extremely adaptative, right?
So, like, there's probably a high chance that if I do that a
couple times, my body will catch on and it will be able to, with
proper rest before the race, be able to do that at a decently
high level. Yeah, so it's exciting, man.
Coca donut 250. I'm not to just join join it.
Just come do fasted. Just like no, no prep work.
Alright, I did Bible in show last year.
Let's do this. 250 now Shredded. 3% body, dude.
You could die on the trail, man. Yeah, would not be good.
Would not be good. All right, man.
Well, that's a wrap. Anything else that we need to
throw in here at the end? No, man.
I and you know, believe in yourself.
You can perform. Love it.
Awesome, man. Where do people go to find out
more about you and your supplement?
Company. Absolutely.
So as far as me coaching all the social media stuff, the Kita Rd.
anywhere@gmail.com, thekiro.com, Instagram, tick tock Facebook,
all the Kido Rd. And then, as far as supplements
performance gains.org. You spell that for.
People, no, no, I don't have to. I don't have to just spell it
right and do.org and it'll it'll forward, It'll redirect.
It'll forward, it'll redirect. Yeah, I did that so that I
didn't have to do this on podcast.
Very smart. Very smart.
Well, Jason, appreciate you, man.
I've enjoyed you coming out here.
Just getting the running, getting the lifts in.
Always a pleasure connecting with you, brother.
So keep killing it. Keep doing what you're doing and
we will talk soon, brother. Yes, Sir.
Adios. Yeah.
Bye.