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Hello ladies and gents Robert 
Sykes ketose, a.com to Dev. 

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Get special guest dr. 
Art oven as Leon the Lion. 

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He is a specialist when it comes
to orthopedic surgery, 

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especially as it relates to the 
spine. 

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This is something that I know 
very little about it, but I know

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several people that have had to 
have spinal surgeries due to 

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lifting incidents or car 
accidents or something of that 

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nature. 
So really diving deeper into 

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what the current standard of 
care is with regard to spinal 

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surgery, the fusion aspect of 
it. 

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Why that may not be optimal or 
likely isn't optimal and then 

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some some possible reasons that 
that is the case why? 

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That is a senator care. 
And then some possible 

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solutions. 
All this was very interesting to

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me. 
I learned a ton, I've got no 

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note, no doubt that you will 
take something from it so that 

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for their do sit back, relax and
do a podcast with dr. 

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As Lee 
And we are live dr. 

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Art of an Ashley. 
How are you sir? 

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Doing good. 
Thank you very much. 

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Thanks for having me. 
Yeah, I'm excited to have you. 

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So I've I don't know what ton 
about proper spinal, health and 

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surgery. 
But I know I think many of the 

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listeners know somebody that has
had their Fusion at some point 

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they've had operations done to 
them at some point. 

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I feel like you are definitely a
disrupter in this field so I 

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love to kind of dive deeper into
your area of expertise and what 

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you're trying to do as it 
relates to surgery when it comes

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to the spying stuff. 
Like this is something that is 

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often times a very misunderstood
topic. 

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Correct. 
And that's why I actually I 

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wrote a book about what we do 
because, you know, quite 

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truthfully. 
I actually 20 years of practice 

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or somehow become numb about 
this that my patients come to my

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office and they ask, you know, 
would be discussed surgery, they

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immediately turn around and say,
oh, we heard that it doesn't 

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work. 
Or will be told by our friends 

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that if they talk about certain 
don't accept it and And you 

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know, the first five years of my
practice, I used to not bother 

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me but I'm like, okay, I heard 
this before and then I became 

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numb to it. 
And then the last five years, I 

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said, I have to do something 
about that because that's not 

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fair to spice it. 
I don't think spine surgeons 

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really have done a favour for 
themselves. 

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Try to teach the public, what we
do as spices, and what we have 

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available to us, what? 
We don't. 

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So I wrote a book about spine, 
Surgery and this book is 

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actually to section. 
I didn't want well, one thing is

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that, you know, I do research 
and development are very active 

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in research and development. 
In Austria, product vertebrae, 

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you know, early on, in my 
practice, I realized that we 

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have a very bad problem, the 
world of spine surgery, facing 

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aging population, do you know 
anything about spine surgery? 

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In terms of what we usually? 
I go back and explain what we do

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or yeah, that'd be great. 
Give the listener some context 

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as to what the current standard 
of care is sure. 

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So the majority of the surgeries
that we do is a surgery called 

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fusion surgery. 
So what happens is that the 

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spine is bunch of bones that are
stacked up on top of each other.

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We call them vertebrae and they 
are separated from each other. 

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By this cartridge, we call it 
disc. 

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And this disc is a Complex 
structure we have because it has

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multiple function. 
It has to allow motion at the 

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same time, it has to hold the 
two bones together. 

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So not only has to pull them 
together, but it has to allow 

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motion. 
So it's actually function is 

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very complex. 
Well, what happens is that 

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sometimes they get injured, you 
know, it's basically literally 

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looks like a tire. 
So the inside is a jelly 

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material. 
They Mushi gelatinous material. 

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That works like a shock absorber
and You have a big thick fiber 

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around that so it's like a jelly
doughnut. 

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Basically, the way I explain it.
So if Integrity is very 

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important to hold it together, 
sometimes I tell my patients, 

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like a tire, but instead of 
holding are holding this 

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gelatinous stuff. 
Well, sometimes if this disc 

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gets exposed to increased 
stress, like a falling down 

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stairs or you know, get into a 
car accident. 

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Well, those tough fibers gets 
disrupted. 

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That happens the gelatinous 
stuff in the middle starts 

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seeping out and just becomes 
painful. 

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The good thing is that the 
majority of the time actually 

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dis does not end up in pain. 
Actually patients, you know, 

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they get into a car accident, 
they hurt for a couple of days 

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or maybe a couple of months and 
then paying does go away and 

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that's like 80 90 % of patients 
but sometimes it doesn't. 

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So this pain becomes chronic and
their needs treatments. 

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So So to treat that, of course, 
we do not what we call. 

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Non-operative treatment, the way
I explained to my patient 

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treatment of back then falls 
into three stages. 

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The first stage is what we call 
the manipulative treatment. 

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The whole idea is to manipulate 
the body, try to get them 

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better, that category, have 
physical therapy, Chiropractic 

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Care, massage, yoga, you name 
it. 

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It's a whole world. 
Second stage are therapeutic 

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injections. 
And most of those medicines 

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involved injection of His own in
different locations of the 

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spine, why cortisone cortisone 
is an anti-inflammatory the way 

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I explain to my patients is that
and that's a very important 

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concept for them to understand. 
It took me 15 years to 

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understand it. 
It's not the damage that causes 

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the pain is the body's attempt 
to repair the damage that causes

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the pain, which is inflammation.
Basically. 

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So if you have inflammation, you
have pain. 

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If you don't have an 
implementation that Porn that 

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damage. 
This does not cause pain. 

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So the whole goal is to decrease
inflammation and we do that by 

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injecting cortisone which is an 
anti-inflammatory medicine 

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problem with cortisone, is that 
it has everything in life has 

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good has comes with negatives as
well. 

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So the good is that it can get a
little pain. 

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The bad is that is very 
unpredictable so it acts more 

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like a hormone as opposed to 
medicine and that's a very 

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important Concert. 
I want my patients to understand

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it medicine. 
You know, exactly what's going 

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to do at pain medicine, a blood 
pressure medicine. 

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It, you injected you see the 
effect but the problem is that 

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in six hours gets washed off, 
the system will cortisone is 

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kind of a unpredictable in terms
of what's going to do and what's

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not going to do. 
But at the same time, has the 

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power to eliminate the problem 
and that's why we use. 

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So sometimes my patient asking 
we heard, it's temporary her 

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Don't work and I tell him all of
the above. 

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Yes, that can happen. 
But at the same time, one third 

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of the time it eliminates paint 
and that's why we use it. 

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So, the problem is we have 
nothing else. 

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There is no medicine throughout 
my career, I've tried different 

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medicines and just you know, 
every time I have a success in 

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followed by total not know 
success, so there's really no 

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medicine. 
So once we. 

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Okay, so now once we try these 
things and page, Does not get 

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better. 
Then the patient needs to make a

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decision based on how much pain 
they have or how much pain they 

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can tolerate. 
I always tell my patients, if 

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you can live with the pain, 
don't get the surgery. 

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But if the pain is so bad that 
you can't live like that, then 

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we have to do the surgery. 
You know, of course, surgery 

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just kind of brush brush up on 
it quickly. 

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Surgery has a lot of risks like,
you know, infection nerve 

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damage. 
You know, and all that, all the 

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bad stuff. 
So my page, Agents always 

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question asked questions about 
concerns about the surgery. 

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What's going to happen on the 
other end? 

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This is what I tell them. 
I tell them that look it all 

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comes down to this. 
If you can live with the pain 

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live with the pain, don't get 
the surgery. 

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But if it comes to a point that 
you can't live like this, then 

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we're going to have to do the 
surgery and what comes after it 

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is what it is. 
And of course, in my book I've 

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explained all of this in more 
detail. 

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So let's say you have a, we have
a patient. 

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Don't, you know, we've identify 
a problem on the MRI list which 

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is a torn disc, torn cartilage. 
We've tried all these 

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non-operative care didn't get 
better. 

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Now, patient decides to do 
surgery. 

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Well, the surgeon that we have 
available to that is what we 

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call fusion surgery. 
So, the surgeries to remove the 

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damaged disc, put a spacer in 
there, and they're in the two 

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bones into one bone. 
Well, we started doing these 

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surgeries right around 1960s and
70s. 

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And we thought that, oh my God, 
we do have some problem with 

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this. 
Why? 

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Because it good chunk of the 
patient's, let's say 30%, they 

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did not heal. 
So you do the surgery. 

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You hoping that the patient is, 
you know what you do in surgery,

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you get down to the bone, you 
make the bone raw, so you strip 

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it of all the soft tissue and 
you put. 

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Put bone graft between the two 
bones and you close it. 

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And you hoping that within the 
next four or five months, this 

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bone graft will turn into a 
solid bone. 

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Therefore, diffusion heels. 
And the two bones become one 

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bone. 
Well, unfortunately, one third 

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the patient that didn't happen 
and what we call that in 

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non-union, so didn't feel well 
in that situation. 

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Now the patient has had pain, 
has had surgery and didn't feel 

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it. 
Now, they're in more pain. 

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Actually, so what's the 
question, what's the answer for 

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this problem, to increase 
diffusion rate, right around 70s

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and 80s spine surgery, being a 
subspecialty of orthopedic 

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surgery, we looked at orthopedic
surgery, we knew that when we 

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treat it fractures like long, 
bone fracture, like you will 

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femur fracture tibia fracture 
arm fracture. 

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The best way of feeling this 
phone. 

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Phone was a technique called 
rigid fixation, so a team in 

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Germany right around 1960s. 
Came up with this idea that you 

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can dissect down to the bone, 
expose the bone, put a plate 

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that's secured by screws into 
the bone. 

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And basically did hold the 
factor ends in a rigid fashion, 

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all the next to each other. 
So the two bones can grow into 

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each other and the two fractured
bones. 

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Become heel, and the bone 
reconstitute itself. 

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We call the rigid fixation, we 
call the AO technique. 

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I think the word is a German, 
word Unger Cerro Castillo 

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synthetica. 
We call the AO techniques oao 

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technique from Orthopedic 
fracture fixation, which is a 

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concept of rigid fixation. 
We knew that worked very well in

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a trauma. 
So we said, okay, well, we know 

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how to put the bone together or 
heal the wound together with 

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Apply that concept to spinal 
fusions and to that we came up 

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with a very large screws. 
We call pedicle screw and that's

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where the Story begins right 
around. 19 mid-80s 8, 1985 two 

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surgeons in France. 
They came up with a very large 

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screw that they can insert into 
the vertebrae from the back, 

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from the back to the front. 
So they put these two screws one

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on each side. 
Into the vertebrae like shish 

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kebab and basically imagine how 
long I've heard her baby sheesh.

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I said where's that? 
How long are these screws like 

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couple inches? 
No, they're all about yes. 

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Four inches, 3 inches. 
That's quite a screw. 

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Yeah, right. 
So, did very large Scooby thick,

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so it's about six millimeters in
diameter and very long screws. 

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It is a big screw that gets 
inserted from back to the front,

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one on each sides and then these
schools Who's on the other end, 

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they have a tulip that can 
accept a rod. 

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So what you do, you insert as 
many screws that you need in 

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different vertebrae. 
And then you put a rod and you 

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connect two screws on each side 
to A rod. 

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So there will be one rod on one 
side and the rod on the other 

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side. 
And you have like let's say you 

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want to fuse five bones, you put
5 screws in each side and then 

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connect them. 
So you have five? 

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If you have ten screws, two on 
each vertebrae and two rods and 

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side. 
So that's how you do the 

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surgery. 
Okay, so you follow me so far, 

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right? 
So, when these became available 

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in nineteen, these two surgeons 
came in 1985 presented, this to 

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the American Academy of 
orthopedic surgery and the 

228
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,800
surgeons were very happy like, 
uh-huh. 

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This is what we've been waiting 
for. 

230
00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:25,300
Somebody somehow somebody figure
out how to put the screw into 

231
00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:28,300
the The vertebrae. 
And that's very familiar with 

232
00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:31,300
what we do in Factor. 
That's what was so familiar with

233
00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:34,100
what we learn in orthopedic 
surgery. 

234
00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:38,500
So let's start doing them. 
So starting mid-80s people 

235
00:13:38,500 --> 00:13:41,600
surgeons, orthopedic surgeon, 
starting inserting new schools, 

236
00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:45,600
problem is at that time, there 
were very bad results. 

237
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,900
Initially, there were up to 
7,000 lawsuits. 

238
00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:53,300
So, the lawyers, right? 
So lawyers not only should the 

239
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,800
doctors but they actually, Not 
only sue the manufacturer which 

240
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,500
was a company called Medtronic 
and actually this suit, the 

241
00:14:00,500 --> 00:14:06,800
doctors and their society. 
So the lawyers soon manufacturer

242
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,900
and suit, American Academy of 
orthopedic surgeons. 

243
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,400
It was about five hundred 
lawsuits against American, 

244
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,200
Academy of orthopedic surgeons 
and there were about five 

245
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,500
hundred lawsuits against North 
American Science Society. 

246
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:23,700
So right around 90s the Whole 
Decade of 90s was a very very 

247
00:14:23,700 --> 00:14:27,100
painful dickhead course, Spine 
surgeons because they have to 

248
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,200
deal with these questions. 
What we're doing the lawsuits, 

249
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,300
the results and everything. 
Actually, this stuff that I'm 

250
00:14:36,300 --> 00:14:40,600
saying, I got it all from Google
at that time, there was multiple

251
00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:46,900
investigations by United States 
Senate into this specific topic.

252
00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:54,100
And this is what happened right?
At 1993, a surgeon called dr. 

253
00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:58,000
Thomas is dead. 
Published a paper published the 

254
00:14:58,008 --> 00:15:01,000
paper. 
He's the chairman of University 

255
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,300
of Wisconsin, Department of 
science surgery. 

256
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,300
This paper was published by him 
only and this paper stated that.

257
00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:13,700
These screws work beautifully. 
They increased Fusion rate, they

258
00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:19,800
improve outcome and the numbers 
that they improve was very 

259
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,400
significant. 
So this paper showed that, the 

260
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:28,100
screws are wonderful. 
Once that got published in Spine

261
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:34,600
Journal in 1993, gave the green 
light for spine, surgeons to use

262
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:40,000
at these pedicle screws and 
pedicle screws became standard 

263
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,900
of care in spinal fusions that 
he have some time. 

264
00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:45,100
So you follow me. 
Yeah. 

265
00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:48,100
That he have some type of tested
interest in that going over so 

266
00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:49,400
well. 
Like was he invest in somehow 

267
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,200
down the line? 
Wait, that's that's where. 

268
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,400
That's where I'm going to talk 
about next week is really 

269
00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,500
interesting. 
So what happens is that right 

270
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:08,400
around late 1990s like to 1998, 
2002 five? 

271
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,000
No, I'm sorry. 
Six papers came out. 

272
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,600
Multinational multicenter said 
that the screws don't work, they

273
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,500
do not increase Fusion rate to 
do not improve. 

274
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:27,500
So, what is going on? 
Well, these newspapers, they all

275
00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:33,500
got brushed under the rug and we
just ignore them. 

276
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,700
We came up with excuse, or they 
didn't do this in this study. 

277
00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:40,500
They didn't think that in that 
study and we said, okay, we 

278
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:43,600
don't care. 
So we picked on that study 1992.

279
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,100
We said we care about that study
because the results were 

280
00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:50,500
actually into what they wanted 
to wanted to. 

281
00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:55,200
Basically, so so bye. 
Bye. 

282
00:16:55,200 --> 00:17:01,200
Lets Say by year 2000, all those
lawsuits have gone away. 

283
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,500
So those lawsuits basically went
away by 1998 because of lack of 

284
00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:11,099
evidence and by year 2000 nobody
was questioning the screws. 

285
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,800
Every time you got a fusion 
surgery you put the screws in 

286
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:19,900
all that then there I come right
around 2013 that I was working 

287
00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:22,200
on this. 
Device, my device. 

288
00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:26,400
So what happens is that I wanted
to come up with a device that is

289
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,600
looks for. 
I mean helps I'm going to come 

290
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,400
back to that question that you 
said, but let me just say how. 

291
00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:37,400
So, right around 2013, I was 
working on a device because I 

292
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,200
had realized that elderly 
population. 

293
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,700
We have a very serious problem. 
Why? 

294
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:46,700
Because these schools get 
inserted into the vertebrae. 

295
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:51,300
What does that mean? 
Well, the vertebrae Composed of 

296
00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:54,200
two different bones. 
It's not just the Block, it's 

297
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,800
not solid block of concrete. 
Let's say it's not like a solid 

298
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:02,500
block of wood and vertebral bone
is like a shoe box. 

299
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:06,900
Inside bone is a spongy bone. 
What we call cancellous, Bone 

300
00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:10,200
and outside, shell is a strong 
born. 

301
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,500
We called cortical. 
So, when these screws get 

302
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:17,300
inserted into the vertebrae, 
they'd get their purchase from 

303
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:20,500
this spongy, cancellous bone. 
Lee. 

304
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,900
So what happens is that when we 
when the patient's age increase,

305
00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:30,700
let's say 65 plus seventy plus 
when the osteoporosis starts 

306
00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:35,700
setting in osteoporosis affects 
the spongy bone a lot more than 

307
00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:39,800
cancellous bone I mean to a 
significant factor. 

308
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,800
So basically when we get 
osteoporosis when the people get

309
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,900
osteoporosis is the inside wound
that melts away and outside 

310
00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:49,500
shell stays actually pretty 
decent. 

311
00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:54,600
When I started working on my 
device, my idea was that we 

312
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,100
should come up with a device 
that use it outside bone as 

313
00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:02,100
opposed to insightful. 
So, I invented this device, that

314
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:05,400
is a flat plate that sits 
against the lamina. 

315
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,800
Lamina is a part of the 
vertebrae that is a cortical 

316
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,100
bone. 
It's very solid. 

317
00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:14,100
I wish I had the pictures, I 
could show you like, what I 

318
00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:16,700
talked about, but it's all 
written in my book. 

319
00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:20,200
I talk about anatomy and all 
that stuff to teach. 

320
00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:23,000
The public and act out of me 
first and then, everything else 

321
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:27,500
lamina is a cortical bone. 
So my device would use a flat 

322
00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:31,200
plate that sits against the 
lamina and use this composite 

323
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,500
straps to wrap, around the 
laminar there for, like a zip 

324
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:40,200
tie and cinches down. 
Therefore uses cortical bone as 

325
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,800
opposed to spongy. 
Well, and then the flat plate 

326
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,900
had. 
It had a little base that has a 

327
00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:49,000
tulip, then you can put just, 
like, pedicle screws, you can 

328
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,300
put as many as you. 
On the vertebrae and then cinch 

329
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:55,300
it down to the laminar and then 
you can put a rod to just like 

330
00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:58,900
the rotary. 
So anyway, so my device actually

331
00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:01,700
won't be Novation Showcase in 
Congress of neurological 

332
00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:05,700
surgeons in 2015. 
So it got presented to the 

333
00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:09,900
Neurosurgical commune. 
So I'm Legit, you know, I'm not 

334
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:14,400
just talking the talk here. 
So what happened after? 

335
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,700
Well, it didn't happen over a 
year or two, it happened over 

336
00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:23,600
five years. 
As I was device, as I was 

337
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,700
developing my device, I hit some
problems. 

338
00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:30,800
I said, well, let me take a look
and see how they solve this 

339
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,400
problem in the school. 
So I started going back and 

340
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:39,400
study the screws in more 
critical eye and more in detail.

341
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:45,000
And what I found out was scary, 
this is what happened. 

342
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:50,000
I looked at all the Literature 
and I found I found the same 

343
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,100
problems that I was facing. 
It was present in the screws as 

344
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:56,700
well. 
But nobody talked about, I was 

345
00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:59,800
like, wait a minute, why nobody 
talking about this thing? 

346
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,700
Let me see what's going on. 
So, one thing led to another, 

347
00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:06,200
and then another, and then 
another, and then I was like, oh

348
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,000
my God, what's going on? 
And this is what happened. 

349
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,200
I looked at the literature about
the schools and I found that oh 

350
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,100
my God, all these papers say 
that it doesn't work. 

351
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:20,200
What is going on? 
Did I said, okay, there's one 

352
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,200
paper said, that's what, let's 
look at that paper and dissect 

353
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:25,800
that. 
See what's going on? 

354
00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:29,000
Now, I'm going back to the 
question that you asked doctors 

355
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,700
Deb. 
Look in 1993. 

356
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,800
First thing about that study, is
that that study was never 

357
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:40,100
finished. 
It, got published in 1993 as a 

358
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:45,900
preliminary report. 
I spent about two years to look 

359
00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:49,500
and see where this final report 
is, and I Couldn't eventually I 

360
00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:52,900
was talking to one of the 
professors from one of the 

361
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,200
midwestern universities and I 
said hey what's the deal with 

362
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,600
that paper? 
Where's the fine goes? 

363
00:21:58,100 --> 00:21:59,600
All that paper was never 
finished. 

364
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,900
It was abandoned in the middle. 
So I'm like, see that again? 

365
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,100
See what it was. 
Yeah, that preliminary report 

366
00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:10,300
that you see, that's the only 
thing that we have. 

367
00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:15,800
I was like my jaw drop. 
I was like, wait a minute, some 

368
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,200
of these papers, this six papers
that came out. 

369
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,800
Some of them won awards like 
they were, they were, they want 

370
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,200
like Waldo. 
Wardrober award was given two 

371
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,400
lectures to do research that 
they've done. 

372
00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:32,700
Some people that body is like a 
Nobel Prize. 

373
00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:37,200
I guess, they determine if a 
study was done, very good and 

374
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,300
complete and they give them the 
war. 

375
00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:42,100
Some of those studies that said,
these schools don't work won 

376
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,000
awards. 
I'm like, wait a minute. 

377
00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:47,800
What's going on here? 
These studies downward Award 

378
00:22:47,900 --> 00:22:50,400
with A passing through we 
totally ignore him. 

379
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:53,900
And in this study was that was 
never finished as a preliminary 

380
00:22:53,900 --> 00:23:00,700
report becomes the sole anchor 
for the whole specialty. 

381
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,000
I got to do a little bit more 
digging here. 

382
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,000
I gotta find out what's going on
with doctors a doubler. 

383
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,000
Didn't? 
This is what I found out back to

384
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,700
you. 
The thing that you just told me 

385
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:16,900
starting in 1997, it start. 
So he published a paper, 1993, 

386
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:22,900
starting in. 97 as those 
lawsuits were disappearing. 

387
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,800
He started getting paid from the
company that was manufacturing. 

388
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,500
Those screws and was being soon.
So as those lawsuits were 

389
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:36,500
disappearing because of this 
paper, he started getting paid. 

390
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,500
They're saying now. 
Of course I cannot accuse 

391
00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:41,300
anybody. 
That's that's not what it's all 

392
00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:43,900
about. 
But what happens like they said 

393
00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:46,600
that although he was getting 
paid for some devices that he 

394
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,000
invented and I've seen in 
Brazil, Inventions. 

395
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,200
It's really I don't know. 
It's no different than other 

396
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,700
inventions. 
Let's go this way. 

397
00:23:54,300 --> 00:24:01,700
So between 1997 to 2005 he got 
paid thirty four million dollars

398
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:08,000
to see that companies behind 
Okay so 34 million dollars was 

399
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,500
like, wait, just when you think 
things can't get worse. 

400
00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:15,300
It got even worse. 
So in 2005 Medtronic, put him in

401
00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:18,100
charge of another very important
study. 

402
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,700
We put them on the study of a 
product called BMP. 

403
00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:26,700
Bone morphogenic protein, one. 
Morphogenic protein is a product

404
00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:32,300
that is, that is a substitute to
bone graft. 

405
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,900
You remember in the beginning of
my lecture? 

406
00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:37,400
I said, we could bone graft 
between the two vertebrae. 

407
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,300
So you turn into a solid bone. 
Well, you have to get that bone 

408
00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:42,800
graft from somewhere. 
Most of the times, we get it 

409
00:24:42,808 --> 00:24:46,800
from our hip iliac joint, you 
know, iliac bone, like the hip 

410
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,100
bone. 
Well, what happens? 

411
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,500
It's like when you go Harvest 
that you hack out, that bone 

412
00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:55,000
out, that area starts hurting. 
So we knew that we have to have 

413
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,500
an alternative for bone graft. 
Well, this product bone 

414
00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:01,900
morphogenic protein, which is a 
hormone that we all have. 

415
00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:04,500
When you break your bone, you 
exclude, that hormone gets 

416
00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:09,100
excreted and then bone heals, so
they have isolate, they have 

417
00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:12,400
identified and have isolated, 
and comes as a product, they 

418
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,000
called BMP. 
So anyway, so that was another 

419
00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:19,600
big product. 
That Medtronic brought into the 

420
00:25:19,608 --> 00:25:22,800
world of spine surgery, so they 
put doctors and devil in charge 

421
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:29,400
of that study this time in 2005.
Doctors deadly got caught, 

422
00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:36,000
modifying his results. 
And that's not by me or it 

423
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:41,000
wasn't by some like Wall Street 
Journal or Boston Globe or 

424
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,800
anything like that. 
It was determined by United 

425
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,000
States Senate. 
So United States Senate, either 

426
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:54,700
investigation for that study in 
2005 study for BMP and it was 

427
00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:59,000
the United States Senate. 
That concluded that that paper 

428
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:04,200
that was published in 2005 was 
Not written by doctors oblique, 

429
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:09,400
but was written by the company. 
Can't you see that crazy? 

430
00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:11,300
What? 
Got this tune in to start 

431
00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:12,700
looking that direction the first
Passover? 

432
00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:14,300
They're pretty suspicious at the
answer. 

433
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,700
Correct. 
There were some allegations. 

434
00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:21,800
Actually, I think one of the 
employees had a falling out with

435
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,000
the company and he blew the 
whistle and he said, hey this is

436
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,400
what this company is doing is 
just having Financial. 

437
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,600
You're basically buying out sign
sir. 

438
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:36,700
You know, just give them, you 
know, stock options paying them,

439
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,800
you know. 
Because you can You can you can 

440
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,700
pay your surgeon or you can pay 
somebody with different Oil. 

441
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:45,200
We're not paying for this, we're
paying for this but doesn't 

442
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:46,400
matter. 
You pay them anyways. 

443
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,000
You know, you understand what 
I'm saying? 

444
00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:51,200
So you can say oh, you pay them 
for this a your research you 

445
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,400
did, or he paid him for some 
studies that we work for us. 

446
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,400
You'll never say that we paid 
him because he saved our bacon 

447
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,300
because all those losses, 
they'll never see that, you 

448
00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:03,700
know? 
And I don't know how much I 

449
00:27:03,708 --> 00:27:08,000
can't say or I cannot say in 
this podcast but I can never Use

450
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,400
somebody of doing something 
wrong but you just put the two 

451
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,300
and two together and this is 
available to every way anybody 

452
00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:17,200
can Google it and this is all in
there. 

453
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,700
This is I don't have some 
private investigator to find 

454
00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:23,400
these out for me. 
All I did is just went to Google

455
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,200
and start just punching him, 
some names, like doctors the 

456
00:27:26,208 --> 00:27:28,600
devil lick. 
It all comes out, it's all in 

457
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,300
there. 
So how so is he, how is he by 

458
00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:33,300
passing on those lawsuits? 
That when he came out with that 

459
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:37,100
paper, 1993 and these companies 
started manufacturing these, 

460
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,900
these Screws, what did he do to 
make those lawsuits disappear? 

461
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,900
Well, I don't know. 
So I cannot I cannot say 

462
00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:50,000
anything because then I can get 
potentially suit I guess for 

463
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:55,000
defamation that. 
But all I can tell you is that 

464
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,600
he published a paper saying that
this stuff works. 

465
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,500
I mean that's a huge evidence 
you know because you understand 

466
00:28:03,500 --> 00:28:07,800
what I'm saying. 
So so we are using those screws,

467
00:28:08,300 --> 00:28:11,900
their results are not good. 
We're getting, you know, the 

468
00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:15,300
door getting sued and then he 
publishes a paper saying that, 

469
00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:18,500
this this stuff works great. 
What else do you need? 

470
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,700
That's yeah, that's what you 
need. 

471
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:24,100
You know. 
That's that's you could have 

472
00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:26,800
done anything more valuable. 
Let's put it this way. 

473
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,300
So did anything happen 
retroactively? 

474
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,400
Sure, he got caught red-handed 
with the the bmp-2. 

475
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,900
They go back retroactively and 
look at anything other than in 

476
00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:37,900
the other things he's done or 
no. 

477
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:42,700
No no. 
So this is this is what the 

478
00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:46,300
situation is. 
So I have to put two and two 

479
00:28:46,300 --> 00:28:49,100
together. 
I mean it took me about five 

480
00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:53,600
years to put the two and two 
together didn't come like one 

481
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,700
moment that I have like, oh my 
God. 

482
00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:59,600
So I had to think about this I 
was like, what is going? 

483
00:28:59,700 --> 00:29:02,000
Going on. 
What the heck is going on? 

484
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,700
Is this like we have just us 
spine surgeons, we have sold our

485
00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:11,100
souls to these companies. 
Is that what's going on? 

486
00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:14,200
Or we Crooks, this is what 
happens, you go to medical 

487
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,700
school, you go to Residents, you
become a surgeon, you become a 

488
00:29:16,708 --> 00:29:24,000
crook, I mean what is going on? 
And that's when it came to me 

489
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,000
and you came to me over to stand
up three years. 

490
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:32,500
This is what basically comes 
down to us as spine surgeons. 

491
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:39,100
We become orthopedic surgeons 
first, we study five years of 

492
00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:43,700
fracture fixation and a and the 
principles affects your position

493
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:48,300
which works very well, is what 
we call rigid fixation, you put 

494
00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:50,400
the bones together in a rigid 
fash. 

495
00:29:51,100 --> 00:29:54,300
Well, when the 80s come around 
and we have these problems in 

496
00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:59,900
spinal fusions and he screws 
come out, the screws are the 

497
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:04,100
principles of use of screws are 
very in line with what we learn 

498
00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:07,700
in orthopedic surgery. 
So we applied the same exact 

499
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:14,800
principles of fracture fixation 
to spinal fusions accept that I 

500
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:20,700
figured out I found out in the 
summer between 2015 and 2019 

501
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,000
like literally instead of four 
years that we should have never 

502
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:29,400
done that, you know, spine is a 
completely different animal and 

503
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:35,100
I'll explain to you why I always
tell spine surgeons that I get 

504
00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:38,100
into arguments with they want to
tear me apart every time I 

505
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:42,600
question the spine surgeons, my 
colleagues, my friends about 

506
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,200
that pay, wait a minute, there 
are all these paper say it 

507
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,000
doesn't work, maybe we should 
look into this and they want to 

508
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,500
tear me apart and I'm not 
talking about being agent up, 

509
00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:56,400
some company know, they just 
want to tear me apart because 

510
00:30:56,500 --> 00:31:00,700
they are absolutely believe. 
That's the right way to do it. 

511
00:31:00,700 --> 00:31:03,300
That's the, that's the way. 
Why we should do it. 

512
00:31:03,700 --> 00:31:07,900
And I had to answer that, why? 
Well, that's why, because we 

513
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:11,100
apply those principles to. 
So now I expect, I tried to 

514
00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:13,300
explain this way. 
I tried to explain me. 

515
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:17,900
Say look, the concept of rigid 
succession Works in their 

516
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:22,200
extremity, like arms and legs 
fractures because of one 

517
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,000
important factor. 
If there is a construct, let's 

518
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,800
say you put two screws and rods 
of you put the bones together 

519
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,000
and you think like hey man, look
this concert is not Be strong. 

520
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,400
Then you have the option of 
eliminating gravity so you can 

521
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,200
eliminate gravity in the arm. 
Of course you can put in a slick

522
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:44,500
in the leg, you put them on 
crutches and you put them in a 

523
00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:47,700
cast, you put them on crutches 
and you eliminate gravity. 

524
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,900
Well, in spine, you can't 
eliminate gravity. 

525
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,900
I mean, to eliminate gravity, 
you have to suspend the patient 

526
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:59,000
in the air or or laying down for
like four months at a time. 

527
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,700
You can't eliminate gravity. 
So Do you have to, do you 

528
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:08,100
principles, have to change. 
So what, rigid fixation worked 

529
00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:12,600
in spine, is not going to work 
because the second you get up 

530
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,300
the second, you stand up that 
construct is under tremendous 

531
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:20,100
amount of stress. 
So, what you have to do is no 

532
00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:23,400
different than building, a 
building, making a building a 

533
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,300
building in a construction zone.
I mean, in an earthquake zone in

534
00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:29,200
San Francisco. 
When you build a building you 

535
00:32:29,208 --> 00:32:32,500
don't make it stiff, you make it
flexible, you put her On 

536
00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:34,700
rollers. 
So if there's a crate that 

537
00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:39,600
doesn't doesn't just fall down, 
same concept, should be applied 

538
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,200
to spine you and I ride, and I 
explained in my book. 

539
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:51,400
Is that renewed new, we need new
Goodbye says that I called 

540
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:57,700
reactive rigid fixation not 
flexible not rigid but reactive 

541
00:32:57,700 --> 00:33:01,600
rigid fixation is something that
if something happens to the 

542
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,900
patient, let's say they fall 
down, they get up and they do 

543
00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:07,300
something. 
This doesn't like tear up the 

544
00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:09,700
bone cut through the bone and 
everything fail. 

545
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:13,100
It got to be a device that 
actually can absorb that energy.

546
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,600
It can deform and then go back 
to its original form. 

547
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,500
So dissipate That energy. 
Do you follow me? 

548
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:21,900
Yeah. 
Yeah, that makes sense. 

549
00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:24,800
And makes sense to rot be using 
like, like attach it on the 

550
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,300
surface of the bone that harder 
bone to like the idea of putting

551
00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:31,600
a screw into a bone in which 
case the interior is soft, makes

552
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,700
no sense. 
It's kind of like putting a put 

553
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:35,800
a screw in the wall, in the 
sheet, rock without using a 

554
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,200
sheetrock. 
Screw it just going to fall out 

555
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,200
after over time. 
Exactly. 

556
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,600
But that's half of the concept. 
The other concept is that that 

557
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,400
device had to be a little bit 
flexible. 

558
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,900
So when patient falls down or 
something bad happens, Like, 

559
00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:50,600
there's an increase in the 
stress. 

560
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,000
It can give a little and it 
doesn't just tear away, right? 

561
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,200
And as the second concept, 
right? 

562
00:33:57,300 --> 00:34:00,700
So that rigid fixation, that we 
use in orthopedic surgery, 

563
00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:04,400
applied it to spy, it doesn't 
work in spine because spine is 

564
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,500
under constant stress constant, 
you know, flexion-extension, you

565
00:34:09,500 --> 00:34:14,000
know, basically constant work 
because you can't put the 

566
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,699
patient, you can't suspend in 
the air. 

567
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,100
So I was like, oh my God, that's
That's what's going on. 

568
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:25,100
Then I looked back then, that's 
when I look back and I say, oh 

569
00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:30,100
my God, that thing that they did
that the Senate did 

570
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:34,300
investigation 2005 and nothing 
came off of it because they 

571
00:34:34,300 --> 00:34:36,199
didn't know what are the 
implications. 

572
00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:41,600
So then I come and say, like, 
wait a minute that 2005 has a 

573
00:34:41,607 --> 00:34:45,500
great implications, why? 
Because it says that the paper 

574
00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:50,199
that was published in 1993, 
Probably was bogus. 

575
00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:55,800
You understand? 
So that means that to this day, 

576
00:34:56,500 --> 00:35:00,000
we don't have any proof saying 
that these schools work. 

577
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,400
As a matter of fact, all the 
study says that they do not 

578
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,300
work. 
So what does it come down to 

579
00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:09,700
basically? 
So what I'm trying to say is 

580
00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:15,500
this The whole training needs to
change for spine, surgery from 

581
00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:21,200
the beginning, we got it wrong 
from the beginning, we as 

582
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,600
orthopedic surgeons, we learned 
everything orthopedic surgery 

583
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,400
and apply dispensary, that 
should not never happen. 

584
00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:31,100
We studied five years in 
orthopedic surgery in that five 

585
00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:33,600
years, our exposure to spine is 
very minimal. 

586
00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:39,300
Then we do one year of spine, 
surgery, and then become spine, 

587
00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:41,800
surgeons. 
And we have to do this complex 

588
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,300
in spine. 
Surgery is much more complex 

589
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,300
than orthopedic surgery, so the 
training is completely 

590
00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:56,200
inadequate. 
So this what I say is not even 

591
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:02,100
controversial, it's so sad has 
such a huge implications that 

592
00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:07,900
I'm calling for the whole thing.
To be revised and we have to do 

593
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:12,400
that first by asking some 
serious questions and those 

594
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:17,900
questions are. 
Why was that paper in 1993? 

595
00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:21,300
Why was it published as a 
preliminary report? 

596
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,600
What was happening in 1993 that 
doctors biblic got published 

597
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,600
that changed the entire course 
of spine surgery, what was 

598
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,900
happening there? 
Why was it? 

599
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:36,200
Why was it preliminary? 
Why was it never finished what 

600
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,000
happened there when he started 
getting paid. 

601
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,300
Why was he? 
What was the reason that he 

602
00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:44,000
started? 
Getting paid this much money, of

603
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,500
course. 
And then when he gets caught in 

604
00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:53,600
2005, that automatically Brings 
into question, actually 

605
00:36:53,600 --> 00:37:00,200
discredits that paper. 
So we have to as a specialty we 

606
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:06,500
have to restart and we have to 
fix something that we didn't 

607
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:08,100
fix. 
And we just brush it under the 

608
00:37:08,100 --> 00:37:14,500
carpet and I and my professors, 
my colleague gets so mad at me. 

609
00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:21,200
When I say this, I see look, we 
went through a lot of pain in. 

610
00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:25,500
1990s, a lot of paint, those 
lawsuits and everything and they

611
00:37:25,500 --> 00:37:27,500
just don't want to open those 
wounds. 

612
00:37:27,700 --> 00:37:29,800
They're like, oh my God, we went
through a lot. 

613
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,000
You want to open reopen those? 
And I'm like well because there 

614
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:38,200
was a good reason those wounds 
existed and we didn't address 

615
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,600
it. 
We just brush it under the 

616
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,900
carpet and kept going well, 
guess what? 

617
00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:45,600
You can't do that. 
That's going to that. 

618
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,500
That's going to show its ugly 
head, sometimes down the road 

619
00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:52,700
anyways. 
Yeah, I would imagine rerouting 

620
00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:56,600
the ship, so to speak with 
regard to all orthopedic 

621
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,800
surgeons out there and pretty 
unwieldy task for sure. 

622
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,100
I mean, are you getting, are you
gaining much momentum at all? 

623
00:38:02,100 --> 00:38:03,700
After you getting any people and
your colleagues that are 

624
00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:06,700
receptive to this, or they all 
pretty much pushing back in fear

625
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:11,000
of rock on the boat? 
Well, that's a very important 

626
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,100
question. 
I don't know the right answer, 

627
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:17,500
but this is what I know world of
spine. 

628
00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:23,600
Surgery is divided into halves. 
One is the orthopedic surgery. 

629
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:28,200
What are the surgeons that 
became Spicer into the route of 

630
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,200
orthopedic surgery? 
The other is the newer surface 

631
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,300
so they become neurosurgeons 
first and then they become spine

632
00:38:37,300 --> 00:38:43,200
surgeons now. 
Now, this is just crazy when I 

633
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,800
talk to neurosurgeons about 
this, they're very receptive. 

634
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,300
As a matter of fact, my device 
got wounded Innovation Showcase 

635
00:38:52,300 --> 00:38:54,600
in Congress of neurological 
surgery which are the 

636
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,800
neurosurgeons brain surgeons. 
When I talk about this concept 

637
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:05,500
to orthopedic surgeons, they 
just don't want to accept that 

638
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,500
anything other than screw is the
answer for Damn. 

639
00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:11,900
It gets hammered. 
I mean I want to be the surgeon.

640
00:39:11,900 --> 00:39:16,000
I can tell you right now 25 
years it gets hammered into our 

641
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:21,300
head that the answer to any 
problem is a screw If you come 

642
00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:25,900
up with anything but a screw, 
they just don't want to accept 

643
00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:28,300
it. 
They just dots, just not it. 

644
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:31,400
But when I talked to 
neurosurgeons, they're very open

645
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,400
to this, and they actually agree
with me. 

646
00:39:34,500 --> 00:39:38,800
So that's why I sometimes I 
wrote it in my book saying, like

647
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,100
it almost to a point that if you
are an orthopedic surgeon, you 

648
00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:47,900
have to unlearn what you learned
in orthopedic surgery and 

649
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:52,600
relearn What is actually 
appropriate for spine, surgery. 

650
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:55,900
Isn't that crazy? 
That is that is is there any 

651
00:39:55,900 --> 00:39:59,500
type of financial implication 
that comes with? 

652
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,400
Or I guess incentive for doctors
and surgeons to use the pedicle 

653
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,700
screws? 
Now like as there any type of 

654
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,000
Kickback for them for using 
those screws? 

655
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,300
Well I don't want to get into 
that because you know truthfully

656
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:16,100
I don't want to incriminate my 
own Chi, you know? 

657
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:22,800
I mean I would like to say Yes, 
there is of course there is, you

658
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,500
know, and that's one of the 
reasons that they're not 

659
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:29,900
receptive to my idea. 
And what I'm saying, because 

660
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:33,000
it's rocking the boat and that 
means that, you know. 

661
00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:36,800
Well, you know, it is what it 
is, you know, I always tell 

662
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,200
people, I say, you know, to 
solve a problem, you have to, 

663
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,300
you have to confront it head-on,
otherwise you can't solve it. 

664
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,400
So, if it's something that, you 
know, you put it under the rug 

665
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,600
and stuff, you're not going. 
Be able to solve it. 

666
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,600
So I tell you my story. 
Actually, when I wrote this 

667
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,000
book, I wrote it very 
politically correct. 

668
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,600
In terms of not incriminating, 
people or companies and being 

669
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,700
very politically, and clicked 
and Mild. 

670
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,300
Well, guess what? 
In 2020? 

671
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,400
So 2020, I got to call me, they 
almost died. 

672
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,300
I was in ICU for about eight 
days. 

673
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,500
And, and when I say this to my 
to, my wife, sometimes gets 

674
00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:21,100
Upset. 
But I'm like, but you know what?

675
00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:23,200
It is what it is. 
I'm the man that always tell the

676
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,200
truth. 
If the truth is not something 

677
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,200
that you like, you know, there's
nothing new about that. 

678
00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:32,000
So I tell my wife, I said, when 
I was dying, when I was just 

679
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,000
like, I thought that man, I can 
die. 

680
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,100
Actually, because my proximal 
saturation was like 80% on 

681
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:43,500
maximum oxygen, you can give me.
I like, 95% of my lungs just 

682
00:41:43,500 --> 00:41:46,100
shut down. 
I was, you know, one of my 

683
00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:48,800
friends who was taking care of 
me, who was it pulmonologists 

684
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,600
Rich respected? 
Fact, after I got out, he said I

685
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,300
gave you one night 50/50, I 
really thought I might lose you.

686
00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:58,400
So anyways, so when I got the 
call that I almost died, I 

687
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:03,100
became Fearless. 
I just said, because I got the 

688
00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:07,900
second lease of life and I came 
out and I reload my entire book.

689
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,600
And this time, I, you know, I 
tackled the problem head on 

690
00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:16,600
because this stuff needs to come
out, and if it doesn't come out 

691
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,900
then it's just going to continue
in a Wrong direction. 

692
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:25,400
So same back to financial 
interest. 

693
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,200
Yes, absolutely. 
Yeah. 

694
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,600
You know, it's very chic in my 
world needs dates that you know 

695
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,400
because uh spine surgeons were 
very successful students. 

696
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,100
You know, we were successful in 
our undergrad, with the task 

697
00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:40,700
with residency and all that 
stuff. 

698
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,300
So what you finish once you 
finish there's no test there's 

699
00:42:44,300 --> 00:42:47,300
no you know observation or 
anything like that. 

700
00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:50,800
So you kind of a crave that At 
success still, you know, you 

701
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,300
can't just just be like 
successful better than nothing. 

702
00:42:54,300 --> 00:42:55,900
You know. 
It's almost like an NFL player 

703
00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:58,500
that retires, you know, all of a
sudden nothingness you know. 

704
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,200
So what happens is that to 
continue? 

705
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:06,700
That success the way that you 
measure success these days for 

706
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,400
somebody as fine surgeon. 
That's, you know, out of their 

707
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,800
training is that you become a 
consultant to a company. 

708
00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:17,800
So when I go to these lectures, 
lot of these professors say, 

709
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:22,000
hey, I'm a consultant to this. 
Consultant that is almost like, 

710
00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:26,500
your, your, your success. 
You know, it's like Chic. 

711
00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:28,400
It's like cool that you're a 
consultant. 

712
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,700
Well, guess what happens when 
you become a consultant? 

713
00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:35,600
These consultant never write 
papers that says, hey, this 

714
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,100
product doesn't work. 
Nine out of ten or I don't know 

715
00:43:40,107 --> 00:43:41,900
what's normal. 
Now, I don't want to incriminate

716
00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:44,300
all my colleagues in your 
because a good chunk of my 

717
00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:47,700
colleagues are with me, they're 
saying the exact same thing 

718
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,200
saying that, you know, Well, let
me, let me, let us go back to 

719
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,000
the question that you asked. 
Do I have people that I agree 

720
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,900
with me? 
Absolutely. 

721
00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:02,400
We have a journal called spine 
spine. 

722
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,800
Is are you know Bible? 
That's know. 

723
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:11,100
We reached find everybody. 
Reach Spine Journal in 2020. 

724
00:44:11,100 --> 00:44:15,000
I walked into my office and the 
lead article caught my 

725
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,700
attention. 
This is exactly what the lead 

726
00:44:17,700 --> 00:44:20,700
article said this. 
Is what it said, it said. 

727
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:27,700
Conflict of interest in Spine 
Journal is very common. 

728
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,200
What does that mean? 
Conflict of interest in spine? 

729
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,500
Literature is very common. 
That's just saying that our 

730
00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:40,600
literature is Tainted. 
I mean, this is, this is so it's

731
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,700
not me, I'm saying that this is 
this is what they're saying. 

732
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,200
So what does that mean? 
Well, that means that when you 

733
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:50,500
are a consultant you work with a
company, your tendency is to 

734
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,000
publish papers that are 
favorable to do it that product.

735
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,000
Well, guess what happens? 
So these and it's always a very 

736
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,100
famous Professor. 
So, these companies befriend a 

737
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,600
sergeant and that surgeon starts
writing papers that are 

738
00:45:05,900 --> 00:45:09,300
favorable to the product. 
Well, 10 years Do we find out 

739
00:45:09,300 --> 00:45:13,300
that product do the work? 
Nobody says anything and we 

740
00:45:13,300 --> 00:45:15,100
could just continue to the next 
product. 

741
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:19,600
Well, my attitude in my book is 
wait a minute. 

742
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:22,100
You publish, this paper will 
come back here. 

743
00:45:22,100 --> 00:45:23,500
We got to ask you some 
questions. 

744
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:26,800
It can't be just like, no 
ramification. 

745
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,300
You just publish a paper and 
nobody can say anything. 

746
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,700
Wait, a minute, if you publish 
the paper that you put the 

747
00:45:33,700 --> 00:45:38,000
patients in the wrong direction,
making him get surgeries that 

748
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,800
they really Nene didn't need it 
or surgery was not going to work

749
00:45:41,900 --> 00:45:46,400
and you betrayed public Trust. 
There should be some 

750
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,300
consequences to that. 
Yeah, I mean that that just not 

751
00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:54,500
not acceptable, so, so that's 
what happened. 

752
00:45:54,800 --> 00:46:00,300
Oh, not only that this CEOs. 
Let's say a medical company, 

753
00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:04,700
this CEO of that company has one
goal and one goal only to make 

754
00:46:04,700 --> 00:46:06,800
money for that company. 
There's really no other gold, 

755
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,900
that's what their goal is. 
And so they go that route, they 

756
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:12,900
befriend the surgeon a public 
toilet. 

757
00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:14,500
Yeah. 
Then ten years later when the 

758
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,300
Brenda Brenda product doesn't 
work there somewhere out there 

759
00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:20,000
in south of France. 
They have retired with 50 

760
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,700
million, whatever they did. 
Nobody can touch them. 

761
00:46:23,100 --> 00:46:25,300
Hmm. 
So we got to have something 

762
00:46:25,300 --> 00:46:27,000
coming back. 
Up we come back here, we got to 

763
00:46:27,008 --> 00:46:30,700
ask you some questions. 
Like what needs to be on the 

764
00:46:30,700 --> 00:46:32,900
world of spine surgery right 
now? 

765
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,100
We got to ask these questions. 
What happened in 1992, if you 

766
00:46:37,100 --> 00:46:43,200
open North American Spine, 
society's website right now. 

767
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,700
If you go to North American 
Spine Society website and you 

768
00:46:46,700 --> 00:46:51,000
look on the section for 
recommendations in the 

769
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,600
recommendations to you screws, 
you find doctors a devilish 1993

770
00:46:56,100 --> 00:47:01,200
paper as a reference. 
Really wait a minute. 

771
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:06,100
I went through very rigorous 
training in my medical school 

772
00:47:06,700 --> 00:47:11,300
residency and my fellowship I 
presented papers that won't some

773
00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:14,100
awards and they got shut down 
with his professors. 

774
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:21,200
Not one time, not even one time 
and unfinished preliminary 

775
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,800
report got even presented. 
So here we are. 

776
00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:33,400
As spine surgeons, we are 
accepting unfinished. 

777
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:39,900
Preliminary report as a sole 
anchor for our specialty. 

778
00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:45,000
It's specialty of medicine. 
That's just that's just I don't 

779
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:46,800
know that it's beyond crazy. 
To me. 

780
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,900
It defies logic. 
This is what happens. 

781
00:47:51,100 --> 00:47:55,100
Now I'm not telling you that I 
just wrote the book or just I 

782
00:47:55,100 --> 00:47:58,600
actually fight the fight. 
So I go to these conferences, I 

783
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:03,000
chase down so-called leaders of 
the field, I've on Bush them. 

784
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:06,500
Some of them they were so nasty 
to know that getaway kind of 

785
00:48:07,500 --> 00:48:10,400
some of the professor's. 
I remember I went to them. 

786
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,500
I said I need just five minutes 
of your time. 

787
00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:15,300
Just five minutes. 
I remember one Professor from 

788
00:48:15,300 --> 00:48:18,100
New York so just just get lost. 
Kind of a thing. 

789
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,200
I said, all I need is five 
minutes. 

790
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,200
No, and then he walked away, you
know, so But but, of course, not

791
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,700
all of them are like that. 
I always tell people is that 80%

792
00:48:27,700 --> 00:48:30,800
of the professor, or 
sweethearts, they're very 

793
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:31,900
receptive. 
I sit down. 

794
00:48:31,900 --> 00:48:34,700
I talked to him and they might 
disagree with me and I said, 

795
00:48:34,700 --> 00:48:39,000
okay, no, that's fine. 
But that the more you get toward

796
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,000
the top Echelon, the more, they 
are like, they don't want to 

797
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:47,300
listen to anybody, you know, 
just just the gear set in their 

798
00:48:47,300 --> 00:48:53,500
ways in a way. 
So, so, so I Mirai. 

799
00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:56,500
I try to coordinate these guys 
and talk. 

800
00:48:56,500 --> 00:48:58,800
So this is what they tell me 
constantly. 

801
00:48:59,100 --> 00:49:05,400
They say yes, we know that we 
haven't been able to show these 

802
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:10,000
schools work with research so 
far, but we will, that's okay. 

803
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:15,700
We know they work, we will in 
the future and I'm like, wait a 

804
00:49:15,707 --> 00:49:17,600
minute. 
Wait wait wait, wait, right 

805
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,400
here. 
Every time you fail, to show 

806
00:49:21,500 --> 00:49:25,300
that something works. 
You've actually shown that, it 

807
00:49:25,300 --> 00:49:28,100
didn't work. 
These two go hand-in-hand, 

808
00:49:28,100 --> 00:49:33,800
they're not two separate events 
are not independent events. 

809
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,900
If you fail, to show that 
something work you just showed, 

810
00:49:37,900 --> 00:49:41,000
it didn't work. 
So we have shown over and over 

811
00:49:41,300 --> 00:49:43,700
that. 
It doesn't class when it comes 

812
00:49:43,700 --> 00:49:47,600
to an implantable device. 
We are surgeons. 

813
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,900
We are implanting these devices.
It's our duty, it's our duty. 

814
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:57,300
duty to show that these work, we
can't just keep going. 

815
00:49:57,700 --> 00:50:00,000
And not only that you can't just
break. 

816
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,800
Even you can't say hey there's 
one paper shows that it doesn't 

817
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,100
work. 
The other paper showed that it 

818
00:50:05,100 --> 00:50:07,900
does work. 
Then for we're goodno for every 

819
00:50:07,900 --> 00:50:10,300
paper that shows it doesn't 
work. 

820
00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:14,100
We should have two papers 
showing that they work, right? 

821
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:20,400
But so far so far, all these 
evidence have been ignored and 

822
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:25,200
it all comes down to our 
training because according to 

823
00:50:25,207 --> 00:50:27,700
the training That we've gone 
through. 

824
00:50:28,300 --> 00:50:33,700
We are doing the right thing. 
And that's the problem because 

825
00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:36,600
in actuality were not doing the 
right thing. 

826
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:40,600
And the way I explain it is 
this, let's say Newtonian 

827
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:44,000
physics and quantum physics, 
Newtonian physics. 

828
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,000
If you want to build a house, 
you can use Newtonian physics 

829
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,300
but if you want to send a, if 
you want to build a laser or 

830
00:50:51,300 --> 00:50:55,800
send a spaceship to mood, you 
can't use Newtonian physics. 

831
00:50:55,800 --> 00:51:00,300
Unique, quantum physics. 
You have to learn a completely. 

832
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:06,000
Lately different set of 
regulations rules and language 

833
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,300
and that's exactly what's 
happening in the world of spine 

834
00:51:10,300 --> 00:51:15,100
surgery. 
We use what is good for 

835
00:51:15,100 --> 00:51:19,500
Orthopedics, what works in 
Orthopedics and we somehow 

836
00:51:20,500 --> 00:51:25,200
convinced that it works in spine
surgery as well. 

837
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,700
But it's not. 
And that's what I'm trying to 

838
00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:32,200
say. 
This is so amazing. 

839
00:51:32,700 --> 00:51:35,800
You say, you know, hey how's 
this going on for a long time? 

840
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,000
This is what has happened. 
This I know, because I go to 

841
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,200
conferences for last 20 years 
twice a year. 

842
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,500
I go to all these come, I know 
all these guys will give 

843
00:51:43,500 --> 00:51:48,100
lectures and stuff somehow in. 
I don't know when exactly let's 

844
00:51:48,100 --> 00:51:51,900
say in late 1990s or so. 
Some people got up and said, 

845
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:57,700
there's plenty of evidence that 
screw works then Two years 

846
00:51:57,700 --> 00:51:59,800
later, the guys who listen to 
those lectures. 

847
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:01,700
They trust. 
Those guys say they got up and 

848
00:52:01,700 --> 00:52:04,900
say, there's plenty of evidence 
that screws work, and then that 

849
00:52:04,900 --> 00:52:07,600
thing just got propagated. 
So, every time I go to these 

850
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,800
lectures, people got, and that's
what I believed. 

851
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,500
And I said, okay, so I was like,
for the longest time from 2002 

852
00:52:14,500 --> 00:52:17,700
when I got board-certified. 
I mean finished my training all 

853
00:52:17,700 --> 00:52:22,600
the way to 2013-2015. 
I assumed that we've already 

854
00:52:23,100 --> 00:52:26,400
passed that point. 
We already showed that schools 

855
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,000
work. 
Very great because this thing 

856
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,000
just got perpetuated amongst us,
oh, there's a people get up in 

857
00:52:33,008 --> 00:52:35,700
the display of evidence that 
shows that screws work. 

858
00:52:35,900 --> 00:52:40,400
But in actuality, there is none.
So he wasn't too. 

859
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,700
Like I had to ask questions, I 
had to go actually, look at the 

860
00:52:43,700 --> 00:52:46,300
literature, like, wait a minute,
where's that evidence? 

861
00:52:46,300 --> 00:52:50,500
That shows stuff works. 
There's none people get stuck in

862
00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:52,900
there there, Echo Chambers and 
their dogmatic thinking. 

863
00:52:52,900 --> 00:52:54,900
It's hard to Hard To Break Free 
of that. 

864
00:52:56,100 --> 00:52:58,900
And I feel like, like, You said 
I feel like as a whole, the vast

865
00:52:58,900 --> 00:53:01,800
majority of orthopedic surgeons 
Doctors medical professionals. 

866
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:05,200
They all genuinely care and are 
doing thing for the right reason

867
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,700
with the intention of helping 
people for the Long Haul. 

868
00:53:07,700 --> 00:53:10,700
But I feel like, I don't know. 
Do you think the solution to 

869
00:53:10,700 --> 00:53:14,000
this is going to come from the 
bottom up or from the top down? 

870
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,300
Because I feel like with 
something as big as you know, 

871
00:53:17,300 --> 00:53:21,800
the, the mainstream organization
of Western medicine, the 

872
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,200
insurance companies, like 
everybody's kind of in bed with 

873
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,600
one another so to speak. 
And if you look at What it would

874
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:31,000
take to steer the ship and 
totally reroute its course and 

875
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,500
switch from using the screws to 
something different, is that 

876
00:53:34,500 --> 00:53:36,900
more realistic or is it more 
realistic that the general 

877
00:53:36,900 --> 00:53:40,100
population that is faced with 
having to have spinal surgery, 

878
00:53:40,100 --> 00:53:44,300
is going to just become aware of
this issue and then make that 

879
00:53:44,300 --> 00:53:47,100
known to the doctors that are 
performing these surgeries. 

880
00:53:47,100 --> 00:53:52,300
And then opt out of using these 
screws when that time comes All 

881
00:53:52,300 --> 00:53:57,000
right, that's the question. 
What you just asked me? 

882
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,800
That's the question that I've 
been in my head for the last 

883
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,400
five years. 
And as a matter of fact, my wife

884
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,100
didn't want me to write this 
book. 

885
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,600
She was like, you have a great 
career. 

886
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,100
I've been in practice for 20 
years, I have a great practice. 

887
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,200
We had a comfortable life, you 
know, my wife is an attorney and

888
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:20,800
you can only ruin it. 
And I told her I said, you don't

889
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,800
understand. 
I can't sleep at nights. 

890
00:54:24,300 --> 00:54:28,300
I mean, I can sleep at nights. 
I can't live with myself. 

891
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,000
Once I found out this problem if
I don't get it out or do 

892
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,700
something about it. 
So, I have done my part. 

893
00:54:37,700 --> 00:54:41,900
In terms of going to these guys 
going to the ark. 

894
00:54:41,900 --> 00:54:44,800
This is the problem. 
I tell him, I said, I and, you 

895
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,100
know, and you go to understand, 
this is very important for 

896
00:54:47,100 --> 00:54:49,700
people who listen to this 
podcast to understand. 

897
00:54:50,700 --> 00:54:54,700
I am not saying, Saying 
something that is I come up with

898
00:54:54,700 --> 00:54:59,100
it myself and because somebody 
told me well that's your idea, 

899
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:02,900
that's your belief. 
I'm like it's not my blinker. 

900
00:55:02,900 --> 00:55:06,200
So it's what's written in the 
literature. 

901
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:12,200
All I'm saying is that hey if 
maybe this literature is trying 

902
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,100
to tell us something we can't 
just keep going. 

903
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,500
I mean if you're going to keep 
going, why do research, why do I

904
00:55:18,500 --> 00:55:21,600
have to go twice a year? 
Get what we call? 

905
00:55:21,700 --> 00:55:26,000
Emmys. 
Why why why, why do I get the? 

906
00:55:26,300 --> 00:55:30,100
You know, I have to every 10 
years I have to recertify. 

907
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,000
So, every 10 years I have to 
learn the latest and greatest, 

908
00:55:34,300 --> 00:55:36,200
you know, all that stuff. 
Why do I do that? 

909
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,600
Why do I go through that pain? 
If you're not going to listen to

910
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:45,000
the research. 
So all I'm saying is that I'm 

911
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,100
not saying that I'm writing. 
If you want to hear something 

912
00:55:47,100 --> 00:55:50,100
funny, Let me let me tell you 
exactly what I'm dealing with. 

913
00:55:50,900 --> 00:55:53,000
This is a true story. 
This happened to me. 

914
00:55:53,100 --> 00:55:55,300
It's not like I heard from 
somebody else or anything like 

915
00:55:55,300 --> 00:56:00,100
that happen to me. 
So, 2016, I was in Boston in 

916
00:56:00,100 --> 00:56:03,700
North American Science society 
and it was just 2016. 

917
00:56:03,700 --> 00:56:08,600
I was just starting to ask 
questions, so I was nowhere 

918
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:13,000
close to where I am right now. 
So in 2016 I was just starting 

919
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,500
out swimming question. 
So I I got up in the middle of 

920
00:56:15,500 --> 00:56:19,200
the conference in front of 1100 
spine surgeons. 

921
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:25,800
And I said, hey I know that all 
these papers are paper saying 

922
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,200
that these screws don't work. 
Maybe you know what do you guys 

923
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,300
feel about that? 
Maybe we should address that 

924
00:56:31,300 --> 00:56:35,200
issue and you know the 
professors that were sitting on 

925
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,300
the panel, they kind of a, you 
know, they kind of brushed it 

926
00:56:38,300 --> 00:56:41,100
off or they didn't answer and 
stuff and I wanted to be 

927
00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:44,000
confrontational. 
I don't every time I raise this,

928
00:56:44,100 --> 00:56:46,600
it's a fight. 
Every time I read this, not some

929
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,400
arguments a fight with 
orthopedic surgeon, renewal 

930
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,400
surgeons. 
Yes, but with orthopedic 

931
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,800
surgeon, The fight. 
They just want to tear me apart.

932
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,500
So I didn't want to. 
I'm going to talk in about going

933
00:56:56,500 --> 00:56:59,800
against leaders of the field. 
These are my mentor. 

934
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,800
These are my, you know, people 
who I look up to. 

935
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,400
So that's very difficult for my 
point, my part to do that. 

936
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:11,200
So I but at that stage I didn't 
know what I know now. 

937
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:15,100
So I sat down and everything. 
Okay, so 20 minutes later 

938
00:57:15,300 --> 00:57:17,200
session has ended. 
I'm getting coffee. 

939
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:22,400
So, as I'm getting coffee, I'm 
talking to a surgeon and he 

940
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,400
introduces me to the guy to the 
surgeon behind me. 

941
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,600
And he turns around to him and 
says, oh doctor, as he doesn't 

942
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,200
like the screws. 
And the surgeon behind me said, 

943
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:34,300
oh, oh, you're the guy that says
that thing about the screws? 

944
00:57:34,300 --> 00:57:38,900
Well, I just want to tell you 
that everybody is entitled and 

945
00:57:38,900 --> 00:57:41,200
welcome to their opinion, but I 
just want to say that you were 

946
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,700
very wrong. 
I said it's not the fact that 

947
00:57:43,700 --> 00:57:45,900
I'm right or wrong. 
All I'm saying is that the 

948
00:57:45,900 --> 00:57:49,100
research, the research says 
stuff doesn't I work, we can't 

949
00:57:49,100 --> 00:57:52,700
just keep on going like this. 
He said, I know I publish those 

950
00:57:52,700 --> 00:57:56,100
papers, those are my patients. 
I'm like, yeah. 

951
00:57:56,100 --> 00:57:58,400
What's your name? 
And I won't say the name, but he

952
00:57:58,408 --> 00:58:01,700
was a surgeon from another very 
far count from where I live, 

953
00:58:01,700 --> 00:58:03,900
which I live in Sacramento. 
That's all I can tell you. 

954
00:58:04,700 --> 00:58:07,500
He said, those are my patients. 
My name is this. 

955
00:58:07,500 --> 00:58:09,900
I'm like, okay, I had the papers
in my hand. 

956
00:58:10,100 --> 00:58:11,800
I have. 
Okay, let's take a look at it. 

957
00:58:12,100 --> 00:58:12,800
What's your name? 
Ok. 

958
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,000
So I found he was the second 
paper in my hand. 

959
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,000
We'll see. 
That's my name. 

960
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:17,300
That's my name. 
These are my pictures. 

961
00:58:17,300 --> 00:58:21,000
You was the Author as okay. 
Let's read your paper at the 

962
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:22,800
end. 
This is what it says work for 

963
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:27,100
work at this point. 
At this point, there is no 

964
00:58:27,100 --> 00:58:31,500
evidence to use or 
recommendations not to use these

965
00:58:31,500 --> 00:58:34,500
screws on a routine basis, word 
for word. 

966
00:58:34,700 --> 00:58:38,200
You look at it goes, you looked 
at it, you look at it again then

967
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:41,200
said, no, that's not right. 
And you walked away his own 

968
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,700
paper, his name was on that 
paper, that's what I'm dealing 

969
00:58:44,700 --> 00:58:47,700
with. 
Wow, it's not crazy. 

970
00:58:47,900 --> 00:58:52,600
Z that's in my book. 
It's like I was like, oh my God 

971
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,700
you know. 
So what I'm saying is that I 

972
00:58:55,700 --> 00:59:00,300
have done my thing, I have 
talked to people and it's not 

973
00:59:00,300 --> 00:59:02,800
going to happen from inside, for
many reasons. 

974
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:08,500
One, I'm cutting all these hands
that are feeding him. 

975
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,400
These guys are Consultants with 
each companies and I'm basically

976
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,300
cutting off their sandwiches, 
what I'm saying? 

977
00:59:14,700 --> 00:59:17,600
That's the one they can to 
they've done research. 

978
00:59:17,900 --> 00:59:22,500
Re I'm telling him that you've 
been doing everything wrong for 

979
00:59:22,500 --> 00:59:25,700
the last 30 years. 
Nobody wants to accept that. 

980
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:31,000
Well, nobody wants to say it, 
but the research says it is your

981
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:32,500
and they are aware of these 
paper. 

982
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:35,400
It's not like these papers are. 
I found them and nobody know, 

983
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,900
every spine surgeon that it's an
academic world, they know these 

984
00:59:38,900 --> 00:59:45,100
papers because these papers came
out and very, you know, very top

985
00:59:45,100 --> 00:59:48,600
Journal Journal of sign that 
couple of the Paper guys, had 

986
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,100
they won awards. 
They were published in sponge or

987
00:59:51,100 --> 00:59:54,200
they're very aware of it. 
So, I'm thinking, so, at this 

988
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:58,000
point, I didn't know what to do.
I eventually was talking to 

989
00:59:58,008 --> 00:59:59,300
somebody who said this is what's
going on? 

990
00:59:59,308 --> 01:00:00,900
He said, well, why don't you 
write a book? 

991
01:00:00,900 --> 01:00:02,100
I'm like, well, I'm not a good 
writer. 

992
01:00:02,100 --> 01:00:04,300
I can't who doesn't have to be 
very complex. 

993
01:00:04,300 --> 01:00:09,300
It can be action, very simple. 
I said, I guess I will so that's

994
01:00:09,300 --> 01:00:13,000
what it was like four years ago.
That's when started writing the 

995
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:16,900
book and and I wrote the book 
for one purpose. 

996
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:18,900
Okay. 
If you're not going to listen to

997
01:00:18,900 --> 01:00:21,000
me then I'm going to go to the 
public. 

998
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:22,900
I'm going to let them know 
what's happening to them. 

999
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,900
Let them decide now what they 
want to do from here, this point

1000
01:00:25,900 --> 01:00:30,000
on here I think that's best. 
I mean I think just putting the 

1001
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,000
power in their hands and letting
them vote with their dollars and

1002
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,600
their time and their interest. 
You know that's it that's 

1003
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,900
exactly. 
And, you know, and as I said, 

1004
01:00:40,100 --> 01:00:43,600
this is not something that I 
say, okay, we need to look at 

1005
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:47,700
it. 
Dear has been to investigations 

1006
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,500
By United States, then it into 
this. 

1007
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:55,500
But at that time I don't think 
anybody knew what they were 

1008
01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:59,300
dealing with. 
I'm the first person that put it

1009
01:00:59,300 --> 01:01:06,700
all together and say aha. 
This is what's happening, it's 

1010
01:01:06,700 --> 01:01:08,200
unfortunate. 
I feel like there's just, 

1011
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,500
there's so much of what you're 
illustrating. 

1012
01:01:10,500 --> 01:01:13,200
Now taking place within the 
nutritional circles that I'm 

1013
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,100
running around in. 
I mean, people get so entrenched

1014
01:01:16,100 --> 01:01:21,000
in their belief system that they
totally remove any sense of 

1015
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:24,300
open-mindedness. 
And then I think Pride also 

1016
01:01:24,700 --> 01:01:27,000
reared, its ugly head, people do
things for so long. 

1017
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:30,300
They're seen as a source of 
inspiration or source of 

1018
01:01:30,300 --> 01:01:33,600
knowledge within a given field. 
They take pride in that. don't 

1019
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:37,500
want to be wrong and then 
anybody that comes along that 

1020
01:01:37,700 --> 01:01:40,600
you know points to our pokes 
holes and what they're doing 

1021
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,600
which I think is a good thing 
they just don't their pride 

1022
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,300
won't allow them to be open and 
receptive to that and I feel 

1023
01:01:46,300 --> 01:01:53,100
like that it just it just stunts
growth so much You know, that's 

1024
01:01:53,100 --> 01:01:54,800
it. 
What you just said? 

1025
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:59,500
What you literally just said 
sums up the entire thing. 

1026
01:01:59,700 --> 01:02:04,000
And there's a reason why I was 
the one that came up with this 

1027
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,300
book, why? 
Because, I always tell myself, 

1028
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,500
what if I'm wrong, what if I'm 
wrong, you know? 

1029
01:02:11,700 --> 01:02:14,400
And, you know, I'm kind of a 
person says, well, if I'm wrong,

1030
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,100
is not a big deal, I try, 
because I always tell people, I 

1031
01:02:17,100 --> 01:02:20,500
said, you get points for trying,
you don't get points for being 

1032
01:02:20,500 --> 01:02:22,300
right or wrong. 
Wrong, you get points for 

1033
01:02:22,300 --> 01:02:24,200
trying. 
That's the most important thing.

1034
01:02:24,500 --> 01:02:27,900
And that's exactly in work, 
especially in the world of 

1035
01:02:27,900 --> 01:02:29,800
spicy. 
Let me explain to you something.

1036
01:02:30,500 --> 01:02:34,600
When I first started, my 
practice I was trained by my 

1037
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:40,100
professors, that nothing works. 
But surgery, physical therapy. 

1038
01:02:40,100 --> 01:02:41,800
We don't know what they're 
doing, car packing. 

1039
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,600
Care is absolutely junk. 
Just don't even, you know, it's 

1040
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:48,300
just worthless. 
So that's the attitude that I 

1041
01:02:48,300 --> 01:02:52,600
saw of my practice now. 
I started my practice in small 

1042
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:55,500
town called Yuba City, kind of 
north of Sacramento and I was 

1043
01:02:55,500 --> 01:02:57,900
the only spine surgeon there. 
So there were a lot of 

1044
01:02:57,908 --> 01:02:59,900
chiropractors that they want to 
befriend. 

1045
01:02:59,900 --> 01:03:02,700
Me and initially of my articles 
like oh my God, I don't want to 

1046
01:03:02,707 --> 01:03:06,100
talk to but then I one day I 
told myself, I said I'm a very 

1047
01:03:06,100 --> 01:03:10,000
open-minded person. 
I'm kind of a guy that I accept 

1048
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,200
everything. 
So let me talk to these guys. 

1049
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,600
Why am I, you know? 
And then when I talk to them, 

1050
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,600
when I actually someone came to 
my office, showed what they do 

1051
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:20,900
and I'm like, well, this 
actually sounds great. 

1052
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,900
And you know let me see and then
it hit me. 

1053
01:03:24,900 --> 01:03:29,700
Hit me why? 
Well as spine surgeons all day 

1054
01:03:29,900 --> 01:03:33,900
we see people who had other 
treatments and they did not get 

1055
01:03:33,900 --> 01:03:36,400
better. 
Well we never see people who 

1056
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,300
have those treatments and got 
better if they got better 

1057
01:03:39,300 --> 01:03:40,600
they're not going to come and 
see me. 

1058
01:03:40,900 --> 01:03:46,600
So we are really skewed in terms
of our perception and what we 

1059
01:03:46,700 --> 01:03:52,900
are exposed to and because of 
that, we develop our own Bias 

1060
01:03:53,100 --> 01:03:57,700
what works and that's why part 
of my book says that never ask a

1061
01:03:57,700 --> 01:04:01,300
specialist, what they think of 
other Specialties why. 

1062
01:04:01,300 --> 01:04:05,100
Because always they have those, 
they see the people who have 

1063
01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:07,100
those treatments and didn't get 
better. 

1064
01:04:07,100 --> 01:04:09,400
If they had those treatment got 
better, they're not going to 

1065
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:10,700
come and see them. 
Hmm. 

1066
01:04:10,900 --> 01:04:15,100
And, and right and then and and 
then I always tell people that, 

1067
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:21,000
you know, like for example, I 
have to defend chiropractors. 

1068
01:04:21,900 --> 01:04:25,600
In front of my other spine, 
surgeon friends because I have 

1069
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,700
to defend spine surgery with my 
chiropractic friends, 

1070
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:33,000
chiropractors in spine, surgeons
think, chiropractic care doesn't

1071
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:33,900
work. 
Well guess what? 

1072
01:04:33,900 --> 01:04:37,000
Chiropractors think surgery 
doesn't work, and I have to tell

1073
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,800
him he's like no, no, if you get
the surgery you're better. 

1074
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:43,100
You're not going to go see a 
chiropractor again the only 

1075
01:04:43,100 --> 01:04:46,100
those guys who are not better, 
they come back and get 

1076
01:04:46,100 --> 01:04:50,000
Chiropractic treatments. 
Mmm, so, so what I'm trying to 

1077
01:04:50,008 --> 01:04:53,900
tell you is that Learned as a 
spine surgeon and I explain to 

1078
01:04:53,900 --> 01:04:56,300
my book. 
I learned from everybody, I've 

1079
01:04:56,300 --> 01:04:59,400
learned so much from 
chiropractors, I learned from 

1080
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,400
every single patient, that is, I
learned from my own mom. 

1081
01:05:02,700 --> 01:05:09,800
So so that's what being 
open-minded that the teachers. 

1082
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:14,100
And because of that, I was able 
to learn really where this pain 

1083
01:05:14,100 --> 01:05:18,400
is coming from. 
What is the thing, how we can 

1084
01:05:18,500 --> 01:05:21,000
evaluate the patient correctly 
and all that stuff? 

1085
01:05:21,300 --> 01:05:26,300
And you are absolutely right. 
I mean what you said that people

1086
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:30,200
will not Bend and they believe 
in what they believe is the 

1087
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:36,900
downfall of our thing. 
I remember one time, one of 

1088
01:05:36,908 --> 01:05:39,600
these I was just talking about 
these screws to another friend 

1089
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:42,600
of mine finds another spine 
surgeon and he turned around and

1090
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:45,000
says well okay what are we do 
this? 

1091
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:48,200
What are we just get? 
Put the spine surgeons together 

1092
01:05:48,500 --> 01:05:52,100
in a room like in the conference
and See what works. 

1093
01:05:52,100 --> 01:05:54,700
So we have like that's exactly 
how we got here. 

1094
01:05:55,700 --> 01:05:57,000
Yeah. 
No, for sure. 

1095
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,100
I think you're doing it right by
being open. 

1096
01:05:59,100 --> 01:06:02,900
Like your I would imagine 
there's like mountains of red 

1097
01:06:02,900 --> 01:06:06,300
tape to jump through, but I'm 
assuming, there hasn't been any 

1098
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:10,700
use case scenarios in which your
device has been used in place of

1099
01:06:10,700 --> 01:06:12,900
the screws thus far again, it's 
just too new. 

1100
01:06:14,100 --> 01:06:17,800
No, this is the situation of 
course I keep saying back the 

1101
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:22,900
book and all that I really I 
really I tell people, I said 

1102
01:06:22,900 --> 01:06:25,900
it's your duty it's not just 
like, hey read my book is a cool

1103
01:06:25,900 --> 01:06:28,400
with no. 
It's your duty to read this book

1104
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:32,600
and you do need to let everybody
else that you know to read the 

1105
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:38,300
book and and you know and the 
treatment of back pain. 

1106
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:45,200
I've said that you know, the red
tape and All that stuff, that's 

1107
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:47,200
hard, but we have to start from 
somewhere. 

1108
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,600
We have to do something. 
We can't just just sit back and 

1109
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:53,800
do nothing not doing anything is
the worst basically? 

1110
01:06:54,100 --> 01:06:56,500
Yeah, I agree. 
Well, it's definitely spread the

1111
01:06:56,500 --> 01:06:58,400
word about your book, man. 
What's the name of it? 

1112
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:04,200
Name of the book is Corporate 
spine, so it's to section the 

1113
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:07,000
first, I didn't want to write a 
book to just complain about 

1114
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,700
things, you know? 
So the first four chapters is 

1115
01:07:09,700 --> 01:07:13,600
about teaching people what we go
through as fines. 

1116
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:18,600
June's to evaluate patients when
we decide patient needs surgery 

1117
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:21,600
or doesn't need surgery, or what
type of surgery. 

1118
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:26,900
So I teach spine surgery first 
and then the second part is how 

1119
01:07:26,900 --> 01:07:31,500
the corporations have taken over
spine surgery and just driven it

1120
01:07:31,500 --> 01:07:33,800
into a dead end. 
Let me tell you this, let me 

1121
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:37,100
tell you, this is very important
for people to understand. 

1122
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:42,200
Spine surgery is at a dead end. 
What does that mean? 

1123
01:07:42,900 --> 01:07:48,400
Once you Except once you dig in 
that the screw is as good as it 

1124
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,600
gets and you're not even give 
the chance for any other 

1125
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:54,200
product. 
That's it, you're done. 

1126
01:07:54,700 --> 01:07:58,600
I tell you that if he continued 
with that attitude, we're going 

1127
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:02,400
to be doing the same exact 
surgery decades from now because

1128
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:06,800
we have accepted that the screw 
is as good as it gets and this 

1129
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:09,700
is what I have to deal with. 
I mean they don't even give and 

1130
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:11,300
off. 
Now, I'm not talking about of 

1131
01:08:11,300 --> 01:08:14,200
course all the surgeons. 
You know everybody who This is 

1132
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:16,899
to my podcast to this podcast. 
They need to understand that. 

1133
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:21,000
I'm not saying everybody the 
same 80% of the surgeons, 

1134
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,000
they're sweethearts, they're 
really nice. 

1135
01:08:23,500 --> 01:08:27,300
The problem is that top 10% the 
hierarchy. 

1136
01:08:27,300 --> 01:08:31,399
When you go up that pyramid, 
those top 10 person that sit on 

1137
01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:34,700
top. 
They are the problem and they're

1138
01:08:34,700 --> 01:08:36,399
the ones that are most famous 
ones. 

1139
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:40,000
They're just like they did your,
they have their own groups, they

1140
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:45,300
have this, the lumbar spine, 
Binary Society, circles my 

1141
01:08:45,300 --> 01:08:50,000
research society, and they have 
this attitude of a professors 

1142
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:53,600
that you got to be one of us to 
be part of us so we can listen 

1143
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:55,000
to you, I was like, wait a 
minute. 

1144
01:08:55,100 --> 01:08:57,700
If you're going to be part of 
you to listen to you to think 

1145
01:08:57,700 --> 01:09:00,899
like you do know that they're 
going to talk just like you and 

1146
01:09:00,899 --> 01:09:03,100
there's going to be no progress.
Yeah. 

1147
01:09:03,100 --> 01:09:07,100
Feel like this is often times 
the case in the medical field in

1148
01:09:07,100 --> 01:09:10,600
academics in everything it seems
and it's kind of morbid but it 

1149
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:14,300
seems like the the vast majority
of innovation is When those 

1150
01:09:14,500 --> 01:09:18,500
top-tier people honestly die off
and it makes way for new 

1151
01:09:18,500 --> 01:09:21,100
generations with new ideas and 
open minds to come and fill that

1152
01:09:21,100 --> 01:09:23,399
void. 
Correct, correct. 

1153
01:09:23,399 --> 01:09:26,399
Now this go back again, to What 
I Got sidestep by what I was 

1154
01:09:26,399 --> 01:09:30,399
saying, you asked me a question 
about my product, what's the 

1155
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:33,200
stage with that? 
This is what happened, this is 

1156
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:36,100
what happened, I was at a 
medical conference. 

1157
01:09:36,100 --> 01:09:39,800
I was in, I think it was 
somewhere in San Diego, in 

1158
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:43,000
American Academy of orthopedic 
surgeons, and I got up and I 

1159
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:46,300
said the same thing about, you 
know, like the satisfaction of 

1160
01:09:46,300 --> 01:09:49,200
the screws. 
And they said, what are we do? 

1161
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:52,600
And I talked about my device and
then one of the surgeons as I 

1162
01:09:52,608 --> 01:09:55,600
have to be open about this, one 
of the surgeons said, well, all 

1163
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:58,400
you're doing, you're just 
promoting your own device. 

1164
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:02,300
Well, I took that seriously, I 
took that to the horror. 

1165
01:10:02,300 --> 01:10:04,000
I said, you know, what am I 
like? 

1166
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,400
Just I myself like, what are 
these guys? 

1167
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:11,900
Except, you know, except just 
different attitude, you know, 

1168
01:10:11,900 --> 01:10:14,800
because last thing I wanted to 
do to become one of them. 

1169
01:10:14,900 --> 01:10:18,100
I always tell people I say you 
always complain about this and 

1170
01:10:18,100 --> 01:10:22,100
that but last thing you want to 
do to be one of them except just

1171
01:10:22,100 --> 01:10:25,800
a Flavor, you know, you got to 
be careful. 

1172
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:28,700
You don't get interested into 
that Loop, you know? 

1173
01:10:29,100 --> 01:10:31,800
So I took it to the heart and I 
said, you know what? 

1174
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:36,500
When I first started my research
and development, my goal was 

1175
01:10:36,500 --> 01:10:39,600
monetary, my goal was to invent 
something that I can sell it 

1176
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:42,300
off. 
And, you know, by myself, a 

1177
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:45,500
vacation home down in Southern 
California, and maybe a nice car

1178
01:10:45,500 --> 01:10:47,400
and stuff like that. 
Yes, that was my goal. 

1179
01:10:48,500 --> 01:10:50,400
And I'm not, you know, I'm not 
at the same time, you know? 

1180
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:52,400
I'm not saying that I do 
everything for free now. 

1181
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:59,100
No, but the problem that I step 
into got too big, we're talking 

1182
01:10:59,100 --> 01:11:03,600
about a huge problem here and 
this is not a time to think 

1183
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:06,000
about getting some vacation 
homes and stuff. 

1184
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:11,300
So I told myself, I said, I have
to stop developing that device. 

1185
01:11:11,500 --> 01:11:17,400
I have to stop it, so people. 
So my message doesn't get lost. 

1186
01:11:18,500 --> 01:11:21,800
That's so I stopped. 
I stopped all the development on

1187
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:26,300
that I said, I have to sacrifice
myself to get the problem 

1188
01:11:26,300 --> 01:11:30,200
because we have to this is not 
about me getting some nice 

1189
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:32,200
house. 
This is not me by getting nice 

1190
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:35,200
car. 
This involves a specialty of 

1191
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:37,100
medicine. 
We're talking about everybody in

1192
01:11:37,100 --> 01:11:39,100
this world that gets spine 
surgery. 

1193
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:46,200
So I have to make sure that that
my message goes on on tainted, 

1194
01:11:46,300 --> 01:11:51,500
you know, doesn't get people. 
Don't get we're off from that. 

1195
01:11:51,500 --> 01:11:53,600
So I said, I'm going to give up 
on that. 

1196
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:57,600
Let's work on this and that's 
what happened with that. 

1197
01:11:57,800 --> 01:11:59,200
I think that's super as I said 
no. 

1198
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:02,700
Like, I feel like sharing that 
part of the story brings even 

1199
01:12:02,700 --> 01:12:04,400
more credibility to your 
message. 

1200
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:06,100
I would definitely make sure 
that that is known. 

1201
01:12:06,100 --> 01:12:09,300
I mean you don't want to say 
things just for sake of, you 

1202
01:12:09,300 --> 01:12:11,900
know, that identification are. 
But I feel like that speaks 

1203
01:12:11,900 --> 01:12:14,700
volumes to your integrity and 
your motives and I feel like if 

1204
01:12:14,700 --> 01:12:18,300
people knew that, you know, then
they would just buy in that much

1205
01:12:18,300 --> 01:12:20,300
more. 
Correct. 

1206
01:12:20,300 --> 01:12:22,200
Corey exact. 
And that's why. 

1207
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:26,100
Because, because why? 
Because the problem is so big, 

1208
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:29,400
you know? 
And and I have to sacrifice 

1209
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:32,500
myself, you know. 
It's like, you know, you you 

1210
01:12:32,500 --> 01:12:35,100
have a great life, you're a 
document and then some War 

1211
01:12:35,100 --> 01:12:38,400
happens and you have to all of a
sudden and that has happened 

1212
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:42,200
and, you know, coming from Iran.
I have lived that life that 

1213
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:44,800
everything was great and all of 
a sudden, the whole thing comes 

1214
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:47,800
apart, you know, and then all of
a sudden you become a refugee 

1215
01:12:48,100 --> 01:12:49,100
and that's what happened with 
me. 

1216
01:12:49,100 --> 01:12:52,400
I have Escape from Iran. 
So I have lived that life. 

1217
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:56,200
I know how about works that you 
know hey you can have a great 

1218
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:59,300
life but don't take it for 
granted you know things can fall

1219
01:12:59,300 --> 01:13:05,400
apart very quickly and and 
that's what I felt that. 

1220
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:10,000
Hey if I have a great life if I 
have this thing pay let's 

1221
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:14,000
sacrifice it, you know and and 
because we have to fix this. 

1222
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:20,300
So so you're right I mean I had 
to give up on that and End and I

1223
01:13:20,300 --> 01:13:24,100
have no problem with that. 
You know, because because 

1224
01:13:24,300 --> 01:13:28,700
because on the other hand, if I 
don't do it I can't get sleep at

1225
01:13:28,700 --> 01:13:31,800
nights, right? 
Hey, I can't live with myself. 

1226
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:35,000
No, I respect that for sure. 
When you're called to something 

1227
01:13:35,500 --> 01:13:39,100
for a higher purpose, than just 
your own personal gain and you 

1228
01:13:39,100 --> 01:13:42,500
see the benefit to the, you 
know, the larger population than

1229
01:13:42,500 --> 01:13:44,400
yourself. 
I mean that, and if that goes 

1230
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:46,600
through, and if that gains 
moment, if you're able to truly 

1231
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:48,300
change lives, like the 
Fulfillment that you'll get 

1232
01:13:48,300 --> 01:13:51,400
from, that will far Any monetary
gain that you can get from 

1233
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:53,600
anything else? 
Correct. 

1234
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:55,200
Correct. 
Correct. 

1235
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:56,700
I love it. 
I love it. 

1236
01:13:56,700 --> 01:13:58,600
Well, I will certainly do 
everything in my power to point 

1237
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:00,900
people towards your book. 
What where else can people 

1238
01:14:00,900 --> 01:14:03,700
follow along and learn more 
about you and dive deeper? 

1239
01:14:05,300 --> 01:14:11,300
I mean, the book says, quite a 
bit, I actually did a chapter 

1240
01:14:11,300 --> 01:14:15,300
one of the chapters about my 
life, where I came from, and 

1241
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:18,600
what led to this because, you 
know, just coming out and saying

1242
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:21,400
the stuff, hey, You know, this 
is what I found this is, that's 

1243
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:24,600
just, you know, there's opens a 
lot of questions like how, you 

1244
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:29,400
know, how did you, how a surgeon
in Sacramento, came up with this

1245
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:32,300
thing saying that, everything 
we've done so far is wrong, how 

1246
01:14:32,300 --> 01:14:36,800
did you get about that? 
So I tell my story that how it 

1247
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:40,900
started, you know, it was really
a simple comment that changed my

1248
01:14:40,900 --> 01:14:44,600
life, to be honest. 
And it's all in my book, one 

1249
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:49,200
comment, one comments and by one
surgeon just change entire my 

1250
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:52,500
Higher life. 
And so they can, they can read 

1251
01:14:52,500 --> 01:14:56,400
the book and they see quite a 
bit about my story and then I 

1252
01:14:56,400 --> 01:15:01,500
made some videos I figured, you 
know, because I want this 

1253
01:15:01,500 --> 01:15:04,500
message to get up everybody. 
So some people that they cannot 

1254
01:15:04,500 --> 01:15:08,900
read the book then I made a 
website that's going to be ready

1255
01:15:08,900 --> 01:15:10,500
hopefully within the next week 
or so. 

1256
01:15:10,500 --> 01:15:17,200
So today is December 19 December
1922 into within a week or so 

1257
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:20,200
we're going to have a website 
that I actually Every chapter of

1258
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:22,600
the book. 
I say it in person, I have a 

1259
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:24,900
video that I explain every 
chapter. 

1260
01:15:24,900 --> 01:15:29,600
So if you cannot read the book 
or you have you read the book 

1261
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:32,300
and you're confused about some 
stuff, you can listen to those 

1262
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:36,600
videos and then we'll just you 
can comment and I cannot answer 

1263
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:38,600
the common. 
We just, I just don't have time,

1264
01:15:38,700 --> 01:15:40,700
but I will definitely read the 
comments. 

1265
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:43,400
Awesome. 
Well, I applaud what you're 

1266
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:44,800
doing. 
I think it's, I think it's 

1267
01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:47,300
amazing. 
I think standing up in front of 

1268
01:15:47,300 --> 01:15:49,200
the adversity when you get in so
much pushback from all over. 

1269
01:15:49,300 --> 01:15:53,200
Your colleagues and everybody in
the hierarchy of the medical 

1270
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:54,600
space. 
I mean, I think that takes a lot

1271
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:56,100
of Courage. 
So by all means, keep fighting 

1272
01:15:56,100 --> 01:15:58,400
the good fight and keep doing 
exactly cute. 

1273
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:01,600
Thank you. 
Well, thank you very much for 

1274
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:03,700
your time, dr. 
Leslie, I really appreciate it. 

1275
01:16:03,700 --> 01:16:06,000
I've learned a ton and like I 
said if there's ever anything I 

1276
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,800
can do to spread your message 
further by all means, please let

1277
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:11,600
me know. 
Absolutely, absolutely. 

1278
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:18,700
I very thankful to give me this 
opportunity to speak to you and 

1279
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:23,500
your platform to spread the word
about what's happening, really 

1280
01:16:23,500 --> 01:16:26,300
in the world of not just spine 
surgery. 

1281
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:29,800
But in the world of medicine, 
you know, we need to go Buddy 

1282
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:31,500
needs to be accountable for what
they do. 

1283
01:16:31,500 --> 01:16:34,900
Simple as that. 
That's my message and 1000% a 

1284
01:16:34,900 --> 01:16:36,700
green and 1000% agree with. 
Thank you. 

1285
01:16:36,700 --> 01:16:38,400
So, very much for spreading that
message. 

1286
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:40,800
And you have a wonderful 
wonderful holiday season. 

1287
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:43,100
Merry Christmas to you. 
Merry Christmas to you too. 

1288
01:16:43,100 --> 01:16:43,700
Thank you.