Hello, ladies and gents Roberts like sceeto Savage.com.
Today I've got special guest Leroy Roland's online.
He is a natural body builder who just finished a killer
competitive season. He won four shows that he did
just a few months back. So I want to dive in and talk to
him about his prep, his reverse diet, what?
He's got going on there and honestly, just talk about the
sport of natural bodybuilding. He's incredibly passionate about
natural bodybuilding. I'm passionate about natural
bodybuilding, so it's always good conversation.
You get to natural body butters together to just talk about the
sport in general. So thoroughly, For this
conversation. I've got no doubt that you will
take something from this. So that for their do is sit
back, relax. Enjoy the podcast with Leroy
Rowlands. And we are Lively row.
How are you man? I'm good brother.
Thanks for having me on you bet, man.
I'm excited to chat with you. So we are recording this at six
o'clock Central Time. And I always do my podcast in
the afternoons. This is a little bit new for me.
I wake up early but I don't normally talk this much this
early, so we'll see if I can keep my head on straight.
That said, when you normally train, like, I figured you'd be
a morning training times, have you already?
Rain today, you trained me at all.
So it's it's a little after 7:00 a.m. for me.
So I usually kind of get up and run around six and then, you
know, put around in the morning kind of get myself ready for the
day and then I'm typically training, I trained at home.
So I'm typically training around 8:00.
So I got like a two-hour window of get myself together before I
actually get in the gym. I don't eat a whole lot in the
morning. I've, it's weird.
I used to be like, ravenously hungry.
In the morning. And then I kind of guessed as my
body is adapted over time to like morning training and
usually eat a bit later in the evening.
A good amount of food so that kind of Tides me over for the
morning. So I don't have a whole lot in
the morning. So I kind of just get up, do a
little bit house stuff. Get myself ready for the day.
If I have client, like, immediate client check-ins, I
can usually get a little bit of client work done in the morning,
but I try to just use the morning as time for me, you
know, walk the dog with my wife in the morning.
We just you know, we have a nice little Trail around our place so
it's kind of a couple hours to just be in the moment you know
total agreement. I try and wake up early and then
start the date on my own terms proactively.
Instead of reactively. I feel like I just way more
productive if I do that and I'm right there with you as well, I
tried to train fast. If I'm training in the morning
or maybe not like fighter in the afternoon, I'll have a meal.
But if I'm training the morning, I'll have, you know, a cup of
coffee with some cream or something and that's pretty much
the extent of my pre-workout calories there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I Of I get up, I have like my
vitamins and greens and stuff like that and I'll have a shake
with like a piece of fruit or something.
And that's all. I'll take in the morning and
then I'll get in the gym. Nice, nice.
I'm trying to think where I first saw your profile on
Instagram. I think it's how we initially
connected. I want to say I saw a like a
profile of you on the nanny News Daily which is also kind of like
a something that you're involved in.
Right? Yeah.
So I so it's funny how that all
started. So I used to have like you know
I called At the body Boeing and banter podcast.
And I just had that on YouTube and it was just like, you know,
similar to what we do on a daily news, or I just kind of would
reach out to somebody that I, you know, without be cool to
talk to and just chat about bodybuilding.
So, that's, that's actually how I met Dan and James that, I now
run that e-news with as I just had them as podcast.
Guess, and then, you know, we really hit it off and, you know,
we've become great friends. Now, the three of us we've
talked. We've talked daily for the last
couple of years, and then we finally, you know, I finally met
them in person when I went down to the Dates to compete.
So it's it's interesting how friendships can build after
never meeting one another. But yeah.
So I then it kind of went from that initial podcast conception
to, you know, there's all these pages that were popping up with,
you know, the ifbb side of the sport with, you know, buys and
tries and bodybuilders Without Borders that just basically gave
you know, a limelight for at athletes.
You know, they talked about Competitors, they shared show
results and stuff like that. And, you know, I was like, man,
like no one's doing that for natural bodybuilding, like that
seems weird. Why is nobody doing that.
So then that's where this kind of idea of the Natty news page
come up. And I was just like, you know
what, there's you know, people post photos all the time, like,
buying create a platform to just, you know, helped build the
natural side of the sport a little bit and give you know
athletes a place to network and meet each other and learn about
you. Like I've met so many people
now, just through posts. Come on that page.
That, you know, if we ever meet up, it would be like, long-lost
friends to a point, right? So that's how kind of the Nati
news page started. And then we've kind of rebranded
the podcast to that which I host with with Dan and James and we
try to get them up at least every Friday.
Awesome. And I feel like, I feel like the
natural bodybuilding sport as a whole, has not gotten near the
attention. It deserves.
I mean, I've been doing natural bodybuilding since I started
bodybuilding way back in. I don't know, two.
Thousand eight or nine or something.
And I've been just screaming about it from the rooftops but I
think what you're doing with like a formal brand all
dedicated to the sport of natural bodybuilding is huge man
because it's unfortunate that, you know, something I was
working out with somebody that day and they were asking me,
they're like, hey why we'll natural bodybuilding?
Never gained. The the attention that like the
VIP be does. And I'm like, man, people there,
the money is on, I have to be people pay to see the freaks
like all these show purses for, you know, the Olympians.
I mean like the highest show purse.
For a natural bodybuilding event as well, like 6 grand or
something. For the overall.
Maybe I do maybe just not any money in the sport, but when you
get into the sport, I mean, it's healthier.
All in all I mean it's the camaraderie is there amongst the
competitors like, when I've competed in NPC and, you know, W
+ BF and whatnot or Ian BF, rather the amateur Division and
the whole camaraderie backstage, amongst natural competitors is
so different than what you experience with the NPC shows.
So I like I feel like it's just a Community.
And I feel like if you can dive in and offer value to that
Community, whether it be through the podcast, what you're doing,
or the content that you're putting out is just a huge value
at man. Yeah.
And there I mean, there's clearly a demand for right?
Like I'm a big numbers guy like I like data.
So, you know, since we started the page, you know, like a year
and you're in a bit ago, like we're over 12 thousand
followers, right? So there's clearly a demand for
natural bodybuilding. Get getting more attention and
people having a bit more of an outlet, like, I do, I run it on
my phone, right? So, I'll switch between my
personal account and the Nati news accounts when I switch.
That's when all the notifications will come through
and like all while gone and my phone will go ballistic between
like tags and story shares and this kind of stuff.
So it's there. And you know, one of the things
that, you know, we're trying to do is give people an opportunity
to, you know, try to maybe get some more money in the sport,
whether that be sponsorships or or whatever, right?
Right. You know, we've we're working
with Gary and Langer who's competing at WWF worlds, this
year? And, you know, he's kind of our
first I guess. You can say sponsored athlete.
We're, we're kind of helping with some expenses with him and
stuff. But you know, long-term, we're
hoping that we can, you know, translate that into like
supplement deals for people or other sponsorships or whatever,
right? If, you know, even reaching out
to like a meal prep company being like, hey, this is, you
know, we have a platform that we can promote you guys with years,
maybe 10. Athletes that.
If you guys are willing to support then that all helps
right? Yeah I think I mean anything
that you can do to help the competitors and just simply
drive more awareness because like people like the general
public has such a skewed idea of what bodybuilding is.
I mean, they're looking at the magazine covers when they're
going out to the grocery store. And like that's their idea of
bodybuilding. But like from a natural
standpoint like like you don't look like a freak, especially if
you're a Diner downtown, you're in close.
I mean you don't even look like you lift when your dad and your
in clothes So like people have such this skewed relationship
with what is and what is not the sport of bodybuilding especially
from the natural sector. But when you look at it from,
you know, Health and Longevity standpoint.
That's where a lot of my audience comes with the picture
because like, I'm in my spacers, like, a lot of the biohackers,
and people are trying to, you know, optimize their performance
for the Long Haul. And I feel like I've always
said, you know, muscle is like the longevity organ.
If you got more lean tissue and you built it naturally, it's
just going to look better and it's going to bode well for you
aging. Well, you know, over the years I
feel like everybody is a body butter.
In some sense like, three, the building fat that the building
muscle, hopefully, it's muscle. And I mean anything that I've
done with my clients that are competing, it's the same
principles that apply to just the general public that wants to
be healthier. So the information needs to be
more widespread. Yeah, yeah it's yeah, it's
unfortunate man. It really is because II.
Very passionate about, you know, I'm passionate about the sport
as a whole, don't get me wrong and I don't have any ill will or
Resentment towards the enhance side of sport.
I'm just very passionate about the natural stream that I've
fallen into and I wish it got more.
I do maybe if respect is the word but you know, just more
attention and more positivity towards it from the outside
world with funding and support and stuff like that, right?
Like I wish the shows were better.
I wish they had a better lighting and better stages and
all that kind of stuff, but it simply comes down to money.
Yeah, total agreement. Well, one of them into like,
your personal Journey through natural bodybuilding.
So, you did a show, how many months ago now wasn't.
What are we now, August? So I, my last show was April
23rd, so we're April, May, June July, you know, not going on for
months already, which is crazy, and it's crazy man.
And you've done, like, when did you start getting into the
sport? Like what age were you when you
started natural body? But in the first place, You want
me to go back to lifting or back to bodybuilding?
Let's go back to lift a man will take a way back.
Yeah, yeah. So my I guess entry into the
world of muscles is kind of different than most.
So I grew up a big professional wrestling fan.
Hmm. My dad was really, it was really
a wrestling fan. So he grew up with like like you
know, wrestling at all. If I drop some names we know who
I'm talking about. Very vaguely man.
That's not my area of expertise. Yeah.
Okay, so for Listening, so my dad grew up with, like, Hulk
Hogan. Ultimate Warrior, Randy Savage.
He passed away. So, you know, back in that day,
these guys were massive. They were muscular.
So then, as I grew up, started watching wrestling names.
Like the rock, John Cena, Stone Cold, Steve Austin.
Like these were all very, very muscular people.
They were massive, and I don't know this for sure, but I'm also
a Big fan of psychology so I can kind of reverse engineer things
that I think at a very young age I was like imprinted with
muscles. Hmm because that's what I
watched on TV and I thought it was the coolest thing ever.
And then you know, in movies and stuff at the time, right?
Like, you know, the big the superheroes, they're all Jack,
right? Right.
So I grew up with with wrestling, in my face, multiple
nights a week for much of my childhood.
So then the natural progression of that is I want to look like
those guys while you gotta, you gotta work out.
So then my parents got me, just a little weight bench.
I remember. I had like a leg extension leg
curl attachment had a little lat pulldown attachment and that was
just in a corner of our house. I think it come with 80 pounds
in weight sand for me and like grade 7, grade 8.
So I was probably like, 12, 13 years old.
Like I started like exercising, right?
Like I would do curls, I would do.
I had one of those door chin up things, so do chin, UPS,
crunches. The beach muscles is people like
the commonly refer to it as not really much for legs and stuff
like that. But I was I was exercising like
pretty young, like 12 13 years old.
And then obviously from there, the next transition is like
okay, you know, you're going to start doing things a little bit
more intelligent, right? You start to educate yourself on
How to Train better and get bigger and stuff.
So then that's when I started getting the magazines and stuff
like that, like there was never an opportunity that my mom could
take me to like the grocery store.
And I wouldn't run over the magazine section and get a copy
of flex magazine or muscle mag or whatever, right?
And I would read those cover to cover.
So I started kind of taking bodybuilding somewhat seriously,
you know, even like when I first got into high school I was just
I was so fascinated by it. Like the concept of getting
bigger of building muscle and you know this is this is
something that I've talked to The podcast and stuff with the
guys about, I guess the delusions and having any
disheartened went towards it. So you know, nowadays everybody
sees people on social media and they look incredible all the
time and they're young, right? Like you see the 20 year old
that just looks incredible and people get disheartened by that
because they're like, I don't look like that.
I just saw these massive people and I was just so I don't know.
I mean inspired by it, maybe I was just like, wow, like the
fact that you could do this is insane.
Well, I was just I was very drawn to it, and I wouldn't say
I have like, great genetics but like I saw results, right?
So then once you see the results, you get more hooked on
it, right? You're like, oh, I'm actually
accomplishing something so I can keep doing this.
And then when I turned 16 for my 16th birthday, my parents got me
three months with a personal trainer, turns out, he was a
Canadian champion boxer at the time.
But he was, he was jacked. Yeah, he was, he was like 5
foot. Or but I'm a member like his
arms were incredible from obviously boxing.
And then training, right? So instantly like this guy,
knows everything. I'm I'm like, completely
trusting everything, he says, right.
So, for three months, I was with him, he's either two or three
times a week, consistently for three months.
And that was like the real Catalyst to me getting in the
gym and having an understanding of like, how to program a little
bit. And, you know, what to do in the
gym, outside of just curls. And chin-ups, right?
Hmm. And then it just kind of
progressed from there through through high school and stuff
and I continue to train. Like there was no, then you
start to get a couple bodies in the gym, like, we'd go to the
high school gym or I took over my dad's garage at home, and I
started Gathering like, dinky little piece of equipment.
It's funny what, I've what I've done now, Ten Years Later at my
own home. I kind of did on a smaller scale
at my parents place. So it's funny how the world
works like that, but Yeah, I was always just into training,
right? It wasn't necessarily like any
inclination of ever competing. I was into bodybuilding.
I didn't follow it, but I was, I was reading the magazines and
I'd watch stuff online and you know, read articles and stuff
like that. I was just I was just into this
idea of building muscle. So then through High School
compete are not competed trained through college trained and then
that's when it kind of sparked. This the idea of maybe wanting
to compete myself, my cousin's, dad actually was a competitor.
So just speaking with him and stuff he was on the enhanced as
well but I don't think I knew it at the time.
Probably didn't care either way. I just thought it was cool that
he competed and then I did my first prep myself in 2015.
And it's funny that I like, when I look back, I did, you know, If
It Fits your Macros, I used my fitness pal religiously, which
you'll never catch me doing any more.
I just don't prep that way, but I was 21 at the time when I
first competed in the fall of 2015 and that was, that was a
good introduction to the sport. I come second out of, I think
there was 11 guys, so, you know, you get that little bit of
positive reinforcement as well, which kind of you'll see things
even more and then That following spring, I competed
again and that was my first dabble into bodybuilding then.
So here in Canada at the time we had Regional events, which were
kind of your local show, then you go to provincials, which
would cover the whole Province. So for myself, it was Ontario
and then you would have Nationals which is all of
Canada, so I end up winning all through that stream won
Nationals for my weight class that year and then it just
snowballed from there. And how old are you now I'm 28
now. So I have been competing
actively. I guess we're seven years but
I've been training for for over a decade.
Nice, nice. Yeah.
I feel like my first show. My first show is Pleasant 14 and
did my prep myself as well. And those first show is man,
it's crazy. Like, if you do a show, you
either become hooked or you scratch that itch and you never
want to do it again but I feel like yeah show is always the
hardest. Because you have no, you have no
perspective over anything, so like it, becomes depending on
the type of person you are, like, for me, I did everything
wrong. Like I lost 80 pounds in 12
weeks. I lost a ton of muscle.
I took my calories way too low. I won the show but it was like
not a healthier sustainable way to go about it at all.
But like the the mental benefit that I got from achieving
something that I worked really hard for far.
Outweigh all the negatives. But I feel like so many people
that first show and they fixate on the negatives and not the
positive. The never do with a second show,
which for me is always been easier.
The more shows I do the easier it gets.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
I often like reflect on how things have changed for me over
the years and I would I think I had a better mindset towards the
sport at the beginning. Hmm because when I first started
like I wanted I wanted to do well but it was more of just
like I just want to try this out.
And then as I progressed in the Spore and not to toot my own
horn, but I kept winning like I was undefeated in my classes for
like, my first like, after I come second and that first show,
I never lost for quite some time after that.
So you kind of get this like, in feeling of invincibility, like I
am the best because, you know, statistically speaking, I kept
winning and then I remember, I, when I come second after that, I
handled it well. And it lit a fire but then this
season I I know my attitude towards it started to get
unhealthy. What I think it was a lot of
from getting so much positivity on social media.
Yeah that I knew I know now looking back had I not have
accomplished what I did like winning I would have I would
have really had a hard time mentally from that.
I would have really beat myself up and I know Out about myself.
So then for me, it's trying to dissect.
Okay? How do we fix that?
Yeah, totally. So this last week did four
months ago, you won that show, so I did for this year.
So My First show was the end of March.
So I had three in a row so at the end of March and then the
first two weeks of April and then I had a week off and then
the last one there, the last week April.
So I was undefeated this season so I want all four again.
It's awesome man. Congratulations.
Yeah. So I walked away with my, my
wbff Pro card was like my big one.
Like that was the the holy grail for me?
This season. I also got my OCD Pro card, I
won an untested show which for me was kind of wild to see.
So again, like I had again that sense of invincibility and you
know, the difference between now and, you know, back when I first
started was that I had, you know, my parents and my
girlfriend at the time being like, wow, you look so great.
This time around, I had Thousands of people online,
telling me I look so great. So then that starts to kind of
mess with your head a little bit.
No, totally man. I feel like, like it's always,
I've always described as a mental sport, but like so much
of it is just your outlook towards everything involved.
Like, how you handled, the winds, how you handle the
losses, how you approach, you know, the building phase, the
competition prep itself. Like there's so much psychology
that goes into the sport of bodybuilding.
I try to really be stoic like, when with my last private was in
2020 and I started prepping November 2019 and then literally
one week before my first competition covid canceled, the
entire show. So I was like super distraught
but I was at the time reading a bunch of like, you know, books
on stoicism. So I was able to just kind of
like make the most of that situation did a photo shoot and
made the best of it. But like that kind of shit
happens in body. Like things like the stars.
Never align something crazy happens.
It's Perfect scenario. So you have to kind of just take
it and roll with it. But if you know like with
bodybuilding, if you know that you've pulled out all the stops
and have done everything to the best of your ability with the
variables that you can control, then that's pretty much just
where you have to leave it. I mean it's a subjective sport.
Like you may be bringing your best package but that's not what
the judges are looking for that day.
You just have to be accepting of that fact, but they obviously
were looking for what you brought to the table because you
won and went undefeated this year.
Yeah, it's interesting man. Especially as a coach right?
Like everything. I try to tell my clients and and
try to get them to understand with regards to, you know, what
bodybuilding is, right? Like there's no, there's no like
tangible win. You know what I mean?
Like, I had a client and he had come.
He was like ninth just a couple weeks ago and then he competed
again the following weekend. He come third hmm.
And I was like okay like this use this as a Learning
experience because he was buzzing, right?
Like he went, he was so evil. He was pretty upset the week
before and then he comes third feeling, good, happy excited,
top three awesome, which is fair.
And I'm not here to discredit that because I'm very proud of
him because he worked his ass off.
But one thing people have to understand is that like, so for
him? Yes.
We made some very minor improvements that week into the
second show. We peaked him a little bit
better, you know. Just overall we Improve things a
little bit but it wasn't, you know, he didn't put on 10 pounds
of muscle to completely transform his Physique in a
week, right. Right.
The biggest difference was that the athletes that beat him the
week, prior weren't there the second time.
So he by all intensive purposes, looked the same, but his placing
improved by 6. Mmm.
And I'm like, okay, like I get it and that's awesome.
But we have to remember kind of what that represents and that's
and this is just a specific situation that's happening now.
But you know, I tell people that like if Chris Bumstead decides
to do, basically any classic physique show outside of the
Olympia Chris is winning. Yeah.
And that goes for any other top athlete right?
Like you know back in the day if Ronnie Coleman ever wanted to do
another Pro show. Like odds are Ronnie's going to
win but if Iran he's not there then not spots.
Right. But nothing else changes except
the athletes that showed up. Yeah, you're totally doesn't.
Yeah, so it's just I don't know, it's weird man, I love the sport
but it's You need to have an understanding of what it
actually is, because there's no, like, there's no tangible way
for me to, you know, quote-unquote beat somebody.
Write it. Like, there's, there's no direct
physique metrics that they're measuring or they're monitoring,
I can't lift more than you. I can't run faster than you.
I can't throw farther and you like, those are all tangible
things that you can track and measure.
Yeah, bodybuilding is not that. And I don't know.
That's where placings they kind of have an asterisk beside them
like you one. But like I know for a fact,
there's a there's athletes that are amateurs that had they have
come to the shows that I would have done.
They would have beat me. I'm not done to that.
I don't think I'm the best athlete there is in the world
because if I was, I'd be the world champion forever.
It's not how it works. Yeah.
It's just trying to is trying to forge that mature mindset
towards this quote unquote sport because Is, you know, people
would get so hooked on. I want to win.
I'm the best, and then You know, better athletes show up but
better carries so much different meaning to it than really any
other sport like better in track and field is tangible better in
you know, throwing sport or lifting sport like you can
measure what better is the bodybuilding, your kind of can't
ya feel like you have to use the fact that there's going to be
other competitors on stage as a way to keep you honest, with
yourself like you want to be the hardest worker in the room and
you want to leave nothing to chance.
And at the end of the day, the main priority, I feel is to
Simply bring a improved package from what you brought the last
time you stepped on stage because if you get hung up on,
who's showing up, you get in your head and just becomes a - I
mean, I was at a I compete at the WNBA of showing Washington
State quite a bit and Matt ogas competed there one year.
So I went to that because I was living in Washington that time
and had several friends that were competing So he was up on
stage and he was the favorite to win, you know?
Like, every like he is the massive following like everybody
was like, okay, this guy's got a who's playing for second.
And then I don't know where this random guy that was just
freaking yoked. Had no social following, showed
up and destroy him. You know, exotic you can't ever
really plan for that. You just have to bring your best
package. You can't ever get cocky with
it. You just have to Simply bring
your best package, but if you can, you know, take pictures of
each time you step on stage and compare them to the last time
you stepped on stage and see, you know, Nificant Improvement
whether that's better conditioning more muscle
maturity better shape better symmetry than you can feel
confident that you're doing something right now, exactly.
There, you know, Jeff Albert's famously said, Chase the
physique right? And there's so much truth to
that where You know, racking up wins or placings and titles and
stuff like we, all kind of want that but the end of the day you
know we got into this to improve our physiques outside of that 30
seconds on stage, right. Like I remember looking at a
side-by-side of for my last season in 2019 to now when I was
working with Cliff he said you know bring your backup.
So the first thing I did when I got my professional photos was
The side by side. And I was I was honestly very
Blown Away by what I've been able to build.
And that feeling when I saw that trumped, how I felt when I had
won the show the day before. Yeah.
So right at that and and it took it kind of took me aback a
little bit because I was that was when I won my OC B pro card,
which was great and I felt awesome.
And then when I got the stage photos and made that
side-by-side, I was like, damn, like, okay, that's what But you
know, three years of consistent effort looks like from a
physique standpoint. So and like I said, I felt I
felt better and very much. Good about myself when I saw
that. Now, you should man.
I mean, that like, building muscle, especially after you've
been training a long time. Like people have a very flawed
idea of what is possible to build in a year.
But like, once you've passed that point of, you know,
consistent training for five years, anything beyond that,
like it's pretty incremental gains.
It's certainly progress. You can certainly see changes in
physique, but it's not like you're adding 20 pounds of lean
tissue every single year. And I feel like a lot of people
have this disillusioned idea of Is possible so natural
bodybuilding. I feel like a such a great
illustration of what is possible because you look at all these
Elite level competitors, like they're they're not putting on,
you know, 10, 20 pounds of muscle, you have to, you have to
hear they're getting excited about 123 pounds maybe but like
they're all competing at a relatively similar weight.
Each time they step on stage and like you mentioned your last
show season was in 2019. It's 20:22.
I feel like so many competitors, make the mistake of competing
far too frequently and then they spend, you know, hardly any time
and legitimate building phase. So, like, for me, you know, my
preps are anywhere from four to six months long.
I'll take two or three months to reverse diet back.
Then I won't compete again for another two or three years.
Yeah, I remember a guy that I was kind of tight with it.
The gym, he was a couple years older than me and he had
competed and I don't I think he'd done to shows when I
started kind of Normally, I'd ask me who's competing again.
He's like, when I, when I feel like I'm gonna compete again,
knowing that all look different. He's like, my biggest thing is
not returning to the stage and looking the same.
Yeah, the time, I didn't understand that now.
I fully do you know, now my projected return is 20 25 and
people still don't quite understand that and I'm like,
I'm just trying to replicate what I did the last three years.
It's not any different but it sounds, you know, so far away.
Especially, you know, locally. It's very common for people to
repeat season after season after season, right?
So all the people that I know locally are like, wait, why are
you waiting so long? What are you doing?
And you know on like, man, I don't want to, I don't want to
replicate this physique. I wanted improved and a lot of
people, they wind up looking worse.
Like they hit a point at which they're spending more time in a
deficit than in a surplus. They're not really building a
lean tissue there, losing muscle in the cut, so they wind up
looking worse. If they're competing every six
months to a year, Which is like the very last thing you want to
do as someone that's trying to leverage the sport and natural
bodybuilding to improve. I mean if you do it right
natural body, but I've always described as like the Fountain
of Youth. I mean, you can truly get better
and better with each year that passes as opposed to worse and
worse. Oh, for sure.
Yeah, there's those outliers that can do it, but I think for
the most part more time off is, is more beneficial do this from
Life perspective, right? Like, you know, you get so
consumed by it for so long like my prep ended up totaling.
By the time I was done was 35 weeks.
Yeah. So, you know, that's north of
half a year, right? So that's half a year that
you're kind of dedicated to this thing and then, you know, people
are like, well, why you waiting so long to return to the stage
and like mashallah live again? Yeah.
Totally man, you gotta find what sustainable for you so you don't
burn out and that you have some sense of livelihood, you know,
outside of the gym and the the macros.
Sure. I kind of want to dive into the
nuts and bolts of your protocol man.
So like you said, Your first show you were doing flexible
dieting, tracking everything with MyFitnessPal.
Like, give us some stats. Like, how tall are you?
What is your weight competition day?
What your weight off season? How are you kind of structuring
your meals that words that look like for you?
Yeah. So I'm self-proclaimed 57 shows
will call me five six and three quarters but call myself by
seven-stage weight. This year was still in the 150s
for all my shows. I Didn't in way in because they
are all just open class. So this was like the first
season where I didn't get to strap to what I weighed, which
was interesting. Yeah, because before we always
tried to, like ensure I was in the lightweight class so I could
be competitive. The only time we consciously
tried to make a weight was for the untested show because I
knew, at least, if I could get in the lightweight class, I
could be competitive against other light weights, but if I
was a class higher, it might not be so competitive. but this
year, I saw A low of 149. But that was like, very
depleted. So with cliff and I we did like
a very hard to please him. We would do like his rapid back
load, which, you know, for those listening kind of summed up, is
that we basically did no carbs from Monday to Thursday and then
we get it at aggressive load on Friday.
So, the lowest I saw this prep on the last depletion day of the
last peak week was 149. Something.
And then carved up, I was 158 So theoretically from when I
competed in 2019 151 to 152, if I've competed at 1:58 that's
about five or six pounds between That season 2 now, so that I was
happy with that obviously and I was doing there so there's
probably a bit more muscle than that.
But so that's kind of stage weight is has still been sub 160
onstage. Last offseason, I got up to 200
for a little bit. I spent a lot of time in the
1990s. I was big, but I was, I was soft
for sure. Like, they're like, you can
tell, I worked out, but without a shirt on, like I was quite
soft. Yeah.
Right now, I am hanging around the mid 1880s, which seems to be
a pretty good sweet spot for me to, like, hang out.
I'm pretty 80/20 with my food, you know Apes on the time.
I'm kind of seeing the same shit.
Yeah. And then 20 percent the time,
you know, my wife and I want to go out for dinner where I'm
pizza or whatever, then we'll do that.
You know, I'm just I'm not actively pushing food right now.
We have our one year anniversary next month or this this month, I
guess. But next week, we're doing a
photo shoot for that. So I wanted to kind of just not
be a fat pig for that and then we have our honeymoon in
December. So Seeing what I looked like at
200. I was like, yeah, I'm not doing
that for going to Mexico. So right now, I still look good.
In my opinion, I still have some semblance of abs and I'm, you
know, 25, 30 pounds over stage, wait, so body composition wise,
I'm in a good spot. Training is good, food wise.
I have a pretty set plan for the most part so I I'm a full-time
Coach. But I also have like a day job
to Monday to Friday. So I'll eat four or five meals a
day during the week, like exactly the same.
So I'll prep things and I'll try.
I'll have it all laid out and measured just out of habit and
convenience, but then dinners is kind of where that 20% comes
into play. You know, some nights, it's
steak and potatoes and vegetables, and then some
nights. Like I said, you know, we've had
a long day. You want to grab a pizza?
Yep, sounds good. That's how I approach it.
I'm not one to be, you know, as Stringent in the offseason.
Like I said, I just want to live a little bit.
I want to be quote unquote normal and my life's different.
Now you know I could be more, I guess robotic beforehand but you
know I'm married. Now we got a house, we got
friends, like I'm not going to be, you know, I spent enough
time bringing Tupperware to social outings, I'm not doing it
when I don't have to. Yeah, no, totally get it man.
Like I think, like I said, you got to figure out what
sustainable for you and if you're if you're doing I feel
like being a little bit more relaxed in the building phase
because you can afford, And to be more like, as long as you're
training, hard and getting enough nutrition in, you don't
have to be as dialed in with the exact macro G.
And I feel like if your allow yourself that, you know,
relaxation, so to speak, then it allows you to be that much more
strict when it counts in the prep.
And I feel like that is kind of like the yin and yang that is
necessary. Yeah.
Like you know, I've talked to, you know, I've talked to a lot
of athletes and you know, the the common Trend with many of
the top ones is Is giving yourself that that freedom, you
know what I mean? Like, I think a lot of the
younger athletes feel. They need to be these perfect
body building robots, 24/7, 365 off crap on prep, whatever and
some can. But I think a lot that I've
talking to have this Psych I don't want to do this, but I
feel like I have to mentality which it usually doesn't end
well. Whereas like, you know, Cliff is
very smart about this kind of stuff, you know.
Brett Freeman is another one that I'm close with, you know,
Berto. Jeff Albert's like you see, all
these athletes that have been in it for a long time and a lot of
them vouch for that freedom and giving yourself that leeway when
you can, you know, If told me that body buildings like a
dimmer switch, it's never off but sometimes you turn it down a
little bit. I like that.
Yeah, yeah. So on prep obviously, you're
you're cranking that up as prep goes on and by the end of it
like you're running out of 100. Yeah.
But in the off season, you know, you know, my like my day-to-day
is still, you know, a lot of people are still going to be
like, how do you eat like that Bob?
Alright. So my dimmer switch is probably
at like 75, right? But that 25 gives me that
ability. To live, you know, a normal
quote, unquote, normal life, you know, and enjoy time with
friends, enjoy time with family, with my wife, go to Mexico, and
not stress that I don't have my scale with me.
Like, these are the kind of things that, you know, before I
used to struggle with, but now, as I've gotten older, and as my
life has changed and will continue to change right?
Like, you know, what's going to happen when I have kids and
stuff. Like I can't be this robotic
body builder when I have kids running around and stuff like
that. So I'm trying to A I guess
mentally progressing the sport as well as physically, right?
Yeah. And I think that's huge man, I
feel like you know what, what stress load you're able to deal
with, you know, over time is Key and I feel like if you're so
obsessive about getting everything dialed in because I
used to be that way. Like I used to carry my I had
like a duffel bag just for for Tupperware.
If I didn't eat within a certain window, I'd I'd get like
anxious. If I didn't train within a
certain window, I get anxious. And it's just like it takes the
fun out of the sport at the end of the day, like I'm the one
putting the suffering on myself, like I should at least enjoy the
process and if you're so stressed out about every little,
my new detail that you can't live then then you're not going
to enjoy it and then you'll probably reach a burnout and
like my main goal with it is I just want to continue to do it
and continue getting better. You know, indefinitely and you
can't really do that. If it's causing you and reckon
more havoc on your life than I would be optimal.
Yeah, like I don't know, I think I think it can cause much more
stress than it needs to with people, right.
Like I've been there that it's consumed me and you know caused
issues in my life that are so easily avoided.
If I just you know don't be such a I don't know what sort of like
robot about things. You know, you can still enjoy
life while still progressing with your physique Endeavors.
Totally. Year, you said you're around the
180s right now. Do you know what your offseason
building? Phase weight, our body fat
percentage is roughly I'm in the teens for sure.
I've honestly never measured my body fat.
I couldn't tell you you know, looking at myself I'm probably
like 14 to 16 percent probably somewhere around there.
I hold my body fat distribution is like, you know, pretty
favorable. So yeah, I can probably look a
little bit leaner. Like I said, like I'm 30 pounds
over stage, right? And still like when I flex have
visible ABS. I hold a lot of weight, kind of
behind me. So like my lower back and my
glutes and hamstrings Yeah, with a swimsuit on, I still look like
pretty jacked but you know, comparatively speaking.
I'm I'm 30 pounds heavier. Yeah.
I feel like that's a pretty good window.
Post-show, I mean when I did my my first quote unquote building
phase, I got to 30 and I'm like, 57 self-proclaimed.
I want to say self-proclaimed 58.
But my wife correction, it says, I'm 57 so 2:30 at that.
Height is not a good look at all.
So now I'll typically stay within about T, 25 pounds of
stage weights, like right now, I'm like 180 180 to someone that
window but round the same body fat percentage and I feel like
that is incredibly healthier than these crazy building and
cutting phases in which you have to lose 50 plus pounds.
I've done that in the past, it's not good and some people do it.
I mean, Some people prefer that but I feel like you're
sacrificing some of the health aspects, and what we're natural
bodybuilding can truly shine. As there's a healthy lifestyle,
I feel like you're sacrificing Revising.
Some of that if you're doing these crazy extremes on each in
the Spectrum. Oh yeah.
You hear guys, talk about how they get so heavy and that their
sleep goes to shit and their appetite goes to shit.
And you're like, okay, you're now starting to pull from the
fundamentals of this whole thing, right?
Like we have food training and sleep and if you're now, you
know, wrecking, two of those things, then maybe don't need to
be that heavy, right? Like I never done, you know, my
quote unquote off Seasons before like before 2019, we're just
like Like I would gain weight to where I felt comfortable.
Again, I would just wait till I prepped again, right?
So at the time, it was probably like 170 to 175 and then I would
just die it again and then the offseason before this prep, I
was like, okay I'm going to actively try to get a bit
heavier. So once I got to like, you know,
this way 25-ish, then I had to start, you know, consciously
eating more and then once once I got to 200, like I I felt I felt
that like the negative effects from it, and, you know, you get
people that say, oh, you need to get uncomfortable and, you know,
offseason, you need to push up and all that kind of stuff.
And there's definitely some Merit to it, but there has to
be, also, some, like, intelligent behind that with
regards to what? That's affecting outside of the
scale, right? Like I could feel, you know,
being lethargic in the gym. I was strong, but, you know, I
wasn't moving that great. Like, I just felt Heavy, right?
And for some people like that might sound not too bad, but at
200 pounds at 57, like I felt I felt that whereas now, I still
feel good right here, right? Like I train good, I sleep, good
appetites good, you know everything.
You know realistically from a muscle building standpoint is in
a good spot. So then you know, I step back
and think, okay, do I need, do I need to do another huge push
like that. I haven't quite determined that.
If I do it would be a very, very slow rate.
And I don't have any intentions of actively trying to get
heavier until next year after we go away in the fall and December
there. Yeah.
I feel like there's definitely a point of diminishing returns.
I mean, you're not going to, you need to be in a surplus to
optimize for muscle building. But once you kind of hit that
Tipping Point like an increase in calories and body fat is not
going to directly correlate to an increase in lean tissue.
Like there is that point of diminishing returns and then you
start like if your cardiovascular System start
suffering. Like if you're doing a plus
pounds and you get winded on your third rep of squats, then
that's going to hinder your ability, to get the volume and
the intense that you're looking for with the resistance running.
So there's definitely no benefit and going and pushing it to that
extreme. Not exactly.
Yeah, and I just, I think from a lifestyle perspective to like, I
just feel better here. I've felt, you know, I, we're
just this to say, like, I felt fat before, right?
So, you know, your bye-bye, gen pop standards, you're not fat,
but if you don't feel good about yourself, then, you know,
there's probably some Merit to you, not making the progress
that you potentially could wear as now.
Like, you know, when I go in the gym, I got a pump, I guess, I
feel big like a feel like a million bucks, right?
So that's That's probably going to translate into something
positive. Totally man, when it comes to
training and you know, what you're doing in the gym.
How do you typically structure that are you doing like a like a
body part? Split?
Are you doing like full bonded? Like how do you structure that
typically Right now. So, I like after I got done my
season, you know, I had a call with cliff and was like, okay,
what's what needs work now, right?
So before I think I mentioned earlier, it was like my back, so
it was basically my posterior chain, he was like, you know, we
need to bring that up. So you're basically from the
base of your neck, down your ankles needs to improve.
So that was like traps back, glutes, hamstrings and stuff.
So my last offseason was very focused on that this time.
Round. Yo, I think we kind of agreed
that my back can still come up just because there's so much
muscle back there that you can build.
Right? Yeah, you know, the front of
your body like, like, your abs, like, once you've built some
ABS, you kind of just maintain them, you know, your chest can
be a little bit better and that kind of stuff but on your back
there's so much muscularity back there to develop that for me.
Anyways, it's something we still want to work on.
So my split right now, I do too. So I start my week on Tuesdays,
I guess I can go to Sunday. So Sunday is legs, and it's like
kind of my big big leg day. So, it's pretty taxing.
I'm usually pretty pretty sore for a couple days after that
one. So I train legs on Sunday, I
rest on Monday, Tuesday is chest and shoulders with a little bit
of arms because I'm trying to bring my arms up, so they get a
little bit of tension on that day.
And then, Wednesday is kind of like my posterior chain day so
that day kind of counts as my second leg day because I'll do
hamstring work, I'll do some deadlifting, but then I also do
rose pull-downs and stuff then I'll rest after that day because
it's kind of like Sunday. It's a pretty taxing session and
then I'll do arms on their own, which is what I've dabbled into
now is getting back to, like, a full arm day.
As I've noticed that in certain poses, my arms don't look that
great. So I want to bring them up which
is just a product of kind of my training before because I fell
into that, you don't need to do direct arm work, you know, just
a little bit of, you know, triceps after push a little bit
of biceps after poll, and you'll be fine and, you know, turns out
for five years later, that's not the case.
Now, your arms are kind of shitty, so arms get their own
day. And then, so that's Friday.
And then Saturday back gets hit again from after Wednesday.
And then we're back to Sunday with legs.
So it's a five days a week to rest days.
Positioned after the hard sessions I've tried to do too
like, extend it out a little bit and you know have like a
rotating like eight-day split or something like that but I don't
know it just with my Schedule my lifestyle, it's just easier to
have a set plan. Monday, is this Tuesday?
This Wednesday's this and just kind of run with that, you know,
I did it last offseason or work, so I'm just going to do it
again. Kind of the biggest difference
this time around compared to last offseason was is now that I
have a direct arm day, and then I've kind of scrapped to leg
days in favor of like a leg day in Agra posterior day.
Yeah, I feel like having a dedicated arm day is good.
Like you feel You feel good in the gym, like, it's a, it's an
intense day, but it's not like you're going in and doing a
bunch of deadlifts or, you know, squash or something.
Like, it's easier to get psyched up for an arm day and you can't
really focus on the blood flow in the pump.
But yeah, I think I've recently started doing like a standalone
posterior chain day as well, and because my lagging body parts
are hamstrings and chest, like, I feel like my back and arms
probably my strong suit and my hamstrings and chest are my weak
points. I'm trying to dedicate more time
to that but The beauty of a man like you pick apart your
physique, you figure out where your strong where your week we
need to bring up and you just you know adjust the training
accordingly are you, are you doing like a like a certain rep
scheme set and rep scheme that you typically fall in across the
board with all movements or do you mix that up modulate that
quite a bit? Yeah, it's pretty varied.
I'd say a lot of the big stuff is kind of a top setback offset,
approached you. I like that.
I like that structure where you have a kind of one sets, a lower
rep range, one sets a higher rep range.
I'm very pretty Auto regulated with how I feel.
So, you know, now that my strength starting to come back
up like, I'm only deadlifting or right now, like are doing our
dlls only do one set because if I do two, I'm just wrecked.
Yeah, same with squats like a barbell.
Like I can usually get in one good set and then I'm done.
Like I need I need some downtime.
Yeah. What else?
Like, The lower lower rep, stuff is pretty reserved for heavy
compounds, and then I'll do you know, higher up stuff for
smaller muscle groups, right? Like, I'll do lateral, delts
will get higher rep. Ranges.
I like, I like certain exercises in higher rep ranges in certain
exercises and lower ones. I don't think there's a one size
fits all to that, like leg extensions for me, if I go too
heavy on them just murdering my knees, right?
But I can do like a 20 or 30 rapper, and my quads will just
be screaming, right? So it's it's kind of just a
figure it out as you go these last couple of years and then
find out what works and not run with it.
Totally. What about nutrition.
Have you have you you fall within a certain type of dieting
style and went with regards nutrition?
Are you still doing flexible dieting to some extent or like
clean eating? And what's your approach to
nutrition? On prep, it's a set plan, you
know, Cliff Cliff gives me macros, but then I just created
meal plan out of it. I just, I like that.
I like to not think about it. I like the consistency of it.
It's just easier for me to track and, and a mentally be a little
bit Freer from the monotony of tracking.
Yeah, you know, I have some clients who they use my fitness
pal every single day and that's what works for them, right?
There's no right or wrong. It's just what works for you and
I know that I know for me, I'm not going to be the one sitting
on my phone trying to punch stuff.
In just give me a plan and I'll eat it.
Yeah, right now I've I still have like a, like I said, I have
that kind of meals 125 is pretty much the same every single day.
Pretty Whole Food based yo meat veggies post-workout, I have you
know oats and a protein shake and some fruit.
I'm trying to play around with Like a little bit more, I guess
Health side of it, instead of just like macros like trying to
dive into the health side of things.
Ray Drew's is a wbff pro who I'm pretty tight with and he's huge
on this kind of stuff about like the vitamins and the minerals
and you know as much as it is to get like your carbs from you
know, one source. You know, there's probably some
air into getting them from a couple sources and you know,
getting good fats in with whole eggs and beef and stuff like
that. So I'm trying to really dabble
into that side of it. I'm not actively tracking.
Like I could probably if I sat down and could give you a
guesstimate, how much my calories are there probably
around. 3,000. Yeah.
On any given day, how low did you go at the depth of your
prep? The last week of depletion.
We were 1400. Maybe it's pretty low, man.
Yeah, it's weird man. Like so on the depletion it's
basically just like meat veggies and fat.
Yeah, like four days straight and the first one, it hurt.
But then, by the third time, I was used to it, like I wasn't
hungry. It was so weird and I was doing
like, I was doing any cardio really.
So even even that 1400, sounds terrible.
But when you're not, Your expenditures low.
You almost don't feel it. Yeah.
Where's or I've dieted down to the lower you know 14 1500 but I
was doing like an hour of cardio a day.
Right. Right.
And so that expenditure like then you're hungry.
I found the last the last week or so ago I really like
obviously energy and stuff was low but like from a hunger
standpoint of a here that all you must've been so hungry like
I didn't really feel that bad Yeah, I mean it's interesting
like talking with people about nutrition especially like
natural bodybuilding space because when I was eating carbs,
you know, I was doing like the depletion phases and I was, I
was just manipulating carbohydrates and fats,
predominately, I'd leave protein pretty high.
But like now, I mean, I've been doing keto since 2015 and
whatever the ones that being. So I haven't had a card-based
million seven plus years even like with peaking and whatnot.
So it's always interesting for me to see How people that are
doing, you know, more traditional natural bodybuilding
Style with nutrition, like, how they're doing these depletion
phases and whatnot and make it work for my mean Cliffs of
freaking, you know, he's a, he's killing them.
He's got, he's been around for a long time, he's got this dialed
in. So for athletes, that are wanted
to go that route. Like he certainly gets him
dialed in. Yeah, like I could talk about
him all day, he's become not just a coach, but a very like a
good Mentor for me not just within the sport but with in
life. I very much look up to him.
I'm sad. I haven't been able to meet him
yet. But yeah.
Like he's very smart or so when it comes to like the depletion
stuff, like I trusted everything he said and you know, he's like,
okay, we're going to do, you know, no carbs for five days and
then you're going to do 800 on the day before the show and
lunch like, okay? Like whatever you say I'm going
to do it and you know it worked, right?
Like you know what he's doing now.
Totally man. That's awesome.
When it comes to what you get, I know you get your gym times
coming. Assuming I want to be
respectful, I don't want to cut into your training time at all.
But when it comes to what you're what you got going on in the
future, you know, you got your next projected show date, and
2025 potentially what sketch excited to Mean Time.
And you've got said, you'd get your anniversary coming up.
What's in the pipeline for us? Catch it.
Excited to wake up in the morning.
Yeah, just a lot of Life stuff now, right?
Like I so so I coach, right? So, I have athletes on stage,
you know, I'd for on stage this past weekend.
I've got it's competing every month up until the end of the
year. Yeah, we just did a like, as
soon as prep ended, we started a pretty substantial house
renovation. So, for those that have been
following along with that, you've seen what's going on
there. So we kind of overhauled the
whole main floor of our house which has been, which has been
fun. So, you know that and then we
have our anniversaries on the 27th of this month.
So we're celebrating our one-year wedding anniversary,
which is cool. And then we're headed You,
Mexico and December. We're hoping to pop over to
Vegas, to go to the Olympia after that, which will be cool.
And yeah, man, just just navigating life, you know,
probably looking to start a family sometime next year.
So you know, leaving leaving the stage for a little bit is, is is
exciting and different ways. Totally man, we just had our
first kid 12 weeks ago. Now I guess so, hey congrats.
Yeah, I appreciate it, man. It's pretty freaking awesome.
Like I was, I don't know what word I would use to describe it,
but I like I'm an entrepreneur, I'm business-oriented.
Like I'm ambitious that I do the bodybuilding like I didn't know
how having a kid would impact these passions of mine and I
would never want to use having a kid is like a an excuse to not
pursue them with the intensity that like to pursue things.
But since having the kid and in your body butter, like you
probably the same entire like Taipei, like you like to do
things with intensity. But man, let me tell you having
a kid. Is freaking awesome.
Like it's like you just want to be better for their sake and
your own and if you want to be a good, a good role model, you
want to be able to see you, want your kid to see you doing hard
things and excelling at it. So, I'm excited for that for
you, man. I appreciate that.
Yeah, it's helped one of life's biggest challenges so I'm
excited to take it on. Thank you, brother.
Heck yeah, Willie Roman been a pleasure chatting with you.
I love what you're doing with it with the sport, getting the word
out about natural bodybuilding. If there's ever anything I can
do, I mean, that is also a big passion of mine, so definitely
hit me up. Let me know.
I'm happy to help in any way, shape, or form possible, man
because I appreciate what you're doing and I want to help help
spread the word. Thanks man, I appreciate that.
Means a lot you bet man take it where people go to find out more
about you Instagrams. Probably your best bet.
Yeah. Instagram it's just Leroy
underscore Roland's underscore Fitness obviously.
Now D News, Daily is the the other page where we share the
natural bodybuilding stuff. YouTube, I'm I documented prep
extensively on YouTube. It did a great job with that,
but I've fell off that once prep ended because I don't really
know what else to talk about. So I'm trying to I'm trying to
get back on YouTube. We did last two weeks, we've got
a video up at least of some training stuff.
So I'm trying to. But, you know, I struggle with
figuring out what to talk about because the offseason is nowhere
near as exciting because it's like, oh I'm eating this and I'm
working out and then I'm eating and sleeping.
So hey it's not exciting man but I feel like that side of the
equation needs to be talked about because so many people and
I run into this all the time and with my clients and just people
in the community, they don't understand the importance of a
proper reverse diet of a proper building phase of being in a
maintenance or Surplus for more time, they're in a deficit.
So I feel like there's a massive hole in the market in the in the
information for people to dive deeper into that.
Yeah, yeah. So I'm trying to I'm trying to
get you to but Instagram is my main one.
I'm a pretty pretty prominent on Instagram with regards to not
only my own Stuff. But with clients and stuff.
So awesome. Well, I will certainly link into
that. Make it easy for people to find
you. Keep killing a man.
Keep doing exactly what you doing, brother.
Thank you, man, appreciate it. You better take care about
bye-bye.