Talk to me about your competitive history because
you're like a freaking rock star.
You're three time world champ. So it's 2016 eight and then 21.
You know, I've been competing in Oregon.
That's the only place I've lived and competed, and in Oregon, NPC
is huge and that's the only thing I knew of.
So I just competed just for the heck of it.
And then I think in 2015 somebody said, hey, you should
compete naturally, and I thought, what's that mean?
I looked it up and I found the WNBF.
That's the first year that I competed with the WNBF and it's
just been heaven ever since then.
Feel like the level of conditioning for the natural
athletes at that world's competition is far and above
that of the conditioning. And just like the like the truly
dense muscle of those in the IFBB league.
Their bodies are just trashed out and they just can't.
They don't function like they used to because they put so much
wear and tear on it. And we are live.
Lisa, how are you today? I am good.
Thanks, Robert. How are you?
I'm good, I'm good. It's been.
When was the last time we saw each other?
Was it Aaron's show? I think so.
It's been almost almost a year it seems.
That's a lot. You get anything in the
pipeline, you're a promoter. This would be your first year
promoting, right? It's my first year promoting in
Portland, the very first WNBF in Portland and Natural Show in
Portland. So I'm pretty excited.
It's going to be September 20th right here in a little place
called Multnomah Village. So excited.
Not a lot of entries yet, so a little nervous about that.
But the idea this year is just getting the word out that there
is a natural federation, everybody's welcome, so we'll
see how. I'm, I'm super excited for you.
And what's you it's crazy is you're gonna be judging my show
a week later. So like, I don't know how you're
gonna, you're gonna be so sleep deprived and ready for a nap
after all this. Well, I know.
And then you volunteered. You said that you would show up
for my show and I totally appreciate that.
However, your show is the week after mine and so I thought Nah,
not a good idea on your part. But thank you.
I really appreciate the offer. Oh, for sure, for sure.
I definitely want to talk about the show, promoting and all all
of that good stuff. What made you, you know, want to
do that? But before we even touch on
that, talk to me about your competitive history because
you're like a freaking rock star.
You're three time world champ. Yes, I got lucky three times.
So you know, I've been competing in Oregon.
That's the only place I've lived and competed.
And in Oregon, NPC is huge and that's the only thing I knew of.
So I just competed just for the heck of it.
And then I think in 2015, somebody said, hey, you should
compete naturally. And I thought, what's that mean?
So I googled it, I looked it up and I found the WNBF and I
reached out to John Nickerson, another promoter from the
Northwest, and I said, hey, can you tell me more about it?
And so he we met and he said, OK, you're going to do this
show, this show and this show. And I said, OK.
And so that was in 2016. I did a show in April, got my
pro card, luckily. Then I went to Sacramento and
competed there as a pro so that I could compete at Worlds in LA
that year in 2016 as a pro. So I just followed my
directions. He said, do this and I said, OK.
And then that's the first year that I competed with the WNBA,
and it's just been heaven ever since then.
It's been fun, it's been awesome.
And did you, did you win Worlds that first year?
I did. I was, you know, like I said,
you just never know who's going to show up.
So you show up with the best package you can and everything
falls into place at that time. But you know, just that one
particular day at that hour that I was on stage, I was the lucky
1 to be chosen. So you know you put in the work.
Just see what happens. So what years were was it that
you that you won your 3 worlds titles?
So it's 2016, eighteen and then 21.
Nice, nice. And you competed again in 23
because you and I were backstage together.
Yes, I did. So I competed every year.
Didn't win every year. I mean, but you know, placed I
think top three for those years. So 23 I placed, I was second,
and then in 24 was my last year, I was third.
And so, you know, when it goes first, second, third, you kind
of think maybe it's time for me to get out.
But it's been so great meeting all the people, seeing and
having conversations with you backstage.
That was really fun. And I think who was with us,
Russ? Yeah, I believe so.
Yeah, I mean, we were waiting in line forever for something and
so we just started conversation, which was really good and I'm so
glad I met you 'cause now we get to see each other at different
events, so. I know, I know.
MM Hmm. What were you doing bodybuilding
in the NPC prior to going into the Natural Federation?
Yeah, I was. I was only a bodybuilder back in
the day when I started. I think it was in the late 90s.
There was only woman's bodybuilding.
That's all there was. So you went to a bodybuilding
show, There were men bodybuilders and female
bodybuilders and that was it. No bikini, no figure, no
nothing. So I started as a bodybuilder
and just stayed. I tried Fit Body one year.
Epic fail. Epic fail.
One thing with the high heels. Oh my goodness, I'm so.
I'm so happy that I stood upright the whole time.
Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that didn't work for
me. So just a bodybuilder?
What was your motivation for for getting into the sport to begin
with? Like how old were you when you
started lifting weights? You know, I was active when I
was younger and I think I played college sports.
But then after college, you know how you just kind of fall off
the fitness wagon, right? Everybody just kind of gets a
life, gets a job. And so I was getting these
really awful migraine headaches like almost 2, three times a
month, and it would just knock me out completely.
So one day I was like, I need to get some air.
So I started walking around outside and it kind of went
away. So then I thought, well, maybe I
just need to keep moving. And then I joined a gym and I
just started small little exercise things and I haven't
had a migraine since mid 90s I think.
And then a friend of mine was doing a show, so I went to watch
and I just sat there and went, oh, I so wanna do this.
And I think my first show was 1996 and I, I was £130 to start
off with. And I think I dieted down to
108. People were calling my mom and
saying what's wrong with her? I think she's sick.
So, and then after that, you know, you just kind of, so this
is my story too, is that after you compete, you gain lots of
weight and then you compete again, you lose lots of weight,
then you do this and this and it's so hard on the body.
And after my when I turned 40 or so, I just said, you know what,
I'm not going to do this anymore.
So I just kind of hover now at the at this weight or I'm at
comfortable. So you were never like
overweight before competing, right?
Like that was never your story. I was a kind of when I was in
college I so I'm 53 and I weighed 150 lbs, which is not
obesely overweight, but it was chunky.
I would call it chunky in that time.
And then when I started work and I just got, I lost weight
because I would get sick all the time.
I, I'm a school teacher. I was a school teacher.
So those kids bring everything into the room and I would get
sick all the time. So I lost some weight there, but
pretty much stayed at about 130, which is not thin and I wasn't
fit. But starting that exercise
program and then it just progressed from working out to
actually trying to compete and so on and off.
I've probably done over 40 shows in my lifetime now, which is not
a lot compared to some people. It's a lot of shows, pretty
shows a lot. Of shows, Yeah, well, but I'm,
I'm 62 now, so my last show was 24.
I was 61 at my last show. So, you know, it's all about the
long haul, right? The longevity of the sport.
Playing the long game is key. I keep telling that to everybody
I come in contact. That's why I love natural
bodybuilding, because like, there's such an emphasis on the
long haul. With natural bodybuilding, you
don't really get you don't really get that conversation in
the untested federations at all. Yeah, it's all about the win
right near, right here, right now.
So everything is immediate when you're taking something because
they wanted it yesterday. So they have no patience and it
takes a while to put on that muscle, I tell you.
Yes, it does. So what?
What? What subject in grade were you
teaching? I taught elementary special Ed
for 30 years, same school, and then I decided to retire after
30 and then I went back and substituted for the next 7 years
still at the same school because the teachers got pregnant or you
know, there was just a leave or something.
So for 37 years, special Ed. Were all the elementary school
school kids jealous of how jacked you are throughout all
the competitive seasons? Some of them, but you know, it's
it's odd because people look at me differently because they
don't see a lot of women with muscles in their culture.
So we had, you know, a diverse population and people would look
at me like something was not right because they weren't used
to seeing women with with muscles.
And so, yeah, I get that. Oh, you're jacked.
Kind of comments from the young kids, but you look, it's not as
much I. Mean, I remember one, one year,
how was that a show? You were judging.
You were, I don't know if you were the head judge or or one of
the assistant judges, but you were judging and I was in a row
or two behind you. My my mom was watching that
competition. So maybe I had competed and then
stepped off stage and went to go sit next to her and she kept
looking at you and she's like, man, I want calves like she's
got and I'm like, yeah, that's Lisa.
She's a freaking rock star. And so, you know, that's all
about it's like just kind of living the lifestyle and
encouraging others that it doesn't matter where you start
and, and whatever is your journey to be the best person,
you know, the best that you can be.
And so it just takes time. And I just especially at the
gym, I want to be like that. I said, well, you got a couple
of years, so just keep, just keep going, just keep
progressing. It's just the consistency.
So hopefully that people see me and I'm a natural role model for
them and they know that they can achieve things without any help,
it just takes time. So that's what's so cool about
your story and your physique and just how you done things.
I mean you compete in bodybuilding, which people
typically just assume or you know, really muscle, heavily
muscled and just massive and you're not massive, but like
you're put together like a body butter like you have like it
wouldn't make sense me seeing you in a bikini category like
you. I try to.
It doesn't work. Yeah, yeah, you look like a
bodybuilder, but you're not like this overwhelmingly large figure
like you. You flow and you're a very
aesthetic and it's all healthy. It's all natural.
And you don't have these crazy shifts anymore, you know,
between offseason and in season and, you know, massive 50 LB
swings. What what was that journey like?
Because that's something that often times goes unspoken in the
bodybuilding realms. But most competitors have some
form of disordered eating. They'll have these really sloppy
building phases. I did that my first couple
years. Like we're all guilty of it at
some point. But like, how did you break free
of that negative downward spiral?
Oh, gosh, it and it took, it took a long time because you
know, you just want to eat everything.
I would make lists. I would, I would scour through
cookbooks and all these bad foods and things that I wanted
to eat. But every time I did that, I
felt horrible. You just feel horrible.
You gain 15 lbs in like a couple of weeks and you're just bloated
and you just don't feel good. And then so it really plays a
trick on your mental stability, right?
So I, I would go into a depression after every show
because I wouldn't look like I did on stage the weekend before.
And I still get a little, you know, mental when I look in the
mirror and go, oh, goodness gracious.
But I, I just said, you know what?
I'm not going to do this anymore.
And I just watched my eating. So I did the reverse diet
without calling it a reverse diet and I just minimize all the
extra junk food things. And so I kind of stabilized and
then after that it was easy, but it took a few years for me to
get to that point. And so now after, you know,
after the shows, we have the judges feedback.
And I tell people, I tell everybody, be careful of the
reverse dieting. Be careful of the depression
that you may go through because nobody tells them that.
Everyone's like, yeah, go ahead and eat whatever you want and
just, you know, gain some weight, gain some muscle.
I said, well, don't dirty bulk, which everybody does.
Like, oh, I'm going to put on 20 lbs, Like, well, that's just
fat. So stop doing that.
Put on some good muscle, eat good and then when you prepare
for your next show, it's not so hard.
You won't have to lose 40 lbs, you might have to lose 20 and
the dieting or the prep, whatever they call it is is
easy. And then when it becomes the
lifestyle, then you don't have to worry it at all.
Totally, totally. And I feel like a lot of
federations and promoters don't really help in that regard
because they'll have like treats and stuff backstage for them to
eat after they step off, you know, the final call.
And it's like, well, we're just kind of like feeding into that
negative feedback loop. And I mean, I did that for like
several years. My first show, I lost 80 lbs in
12 weeks. And then I went out to eat and I
gained it all back. Not all of it, but I, I gained
24 lbs in 24 hours with the celebratory meal afterwards.
And I felt terrible, super sick. And then I was like binging and
purging for years. And it's like, that's no way to
live. And there's got to be a better
way. But that that never really gets
talked about openly. So.
It's important. It's important.
I think they're getting better about it because other people,
you know, they're doing it, people are doing it now.
So they're doing that reverse diet.
They're really being more mindful about how your body
adjusts to it because it's not healthy for one.
And then you go into that cyclical, physical, emotional
kind of spiral down that drain. And so I think more people are
talking about it now than before, but still not nearly
enough. So what I'm thinking now, I got
to thinking about that this morning after my show.
I'm going to offer like a, just like a counseling, kind of a,
just like a feedback session for the things that you may go
through after a show. So I think that would be a good
service for for other people to do.
So if it works out, then I'll like cue you in on it.
And so you can do it after your show too, right?
But I'm going to be taking notes for sure.
Yeah, it's all about really, it's all about the education.
Like people are cutting, they're not drinking water, they're not
doing this because that's what they've heard or that's what
Siri says or, or that's what YouTube says.
I'm like, no, you just need to eat.
You need to feed the body, you need to fuel the body.
So I'll a lot of misconceptions out there still and it's just
with education and finding a good trainer and nutritionist.
So I know you do both right. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, education around nutrition is my wheelhouse from
a ketogenic standpoint. Like I, I did the standard
American, you know, flexible dieting approach for my first
several shows. And I went keto to kind of beat
these disorder eating tendencies that I was struggling with.
And I've just been keto ever since for competitions as well.
And you follow more of a, a mix down.
Like you're having, you know, all macro nutrients, but you're
doing very healthy, you're taking a very healthy approach
to it. Like you're eating Whole Foods,
you're eating real nutrient dense stuff.
You're not eating a bunch of junk food, and you're doing not.
During prep season in the offseason is a different story.
You probably don't let yourself go too, too far off off center
because I mean, you still have, I mean, you're not like 50 lbs
overweight right now. Oh.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So I try to to level off.
I could probably maybe between 8 and 10 lbs off of stage weight
just because I'm comfortable there.
But I'll, I'll allow myself trees.
I I'm a big chip fan and ice cream.
So you know, that goes in a vicious cycle.
But my foods are good and, and I just try to stay.
I can, you know, you look in the mirror.
I don't ever get on the scale. I don't count calories and I
don't count macros. I weigh my food because all that
other information is just too much for me.
So I weigh my food. I know exactly how much I'm
eating pretty much. And so I it's easy for me
because it's what I do all the time and so it doesn't change
when I get ready for a show. I just cut out the extra junk
food and the sauces. I love sauce, so everything on
my food is sauce. But yeah, and I just, I can cut
down on this. So I could actually get ready
for a show in four to five weeks if I really wanted to.
How? Do you, how do you structure
your nutrition with taking the mix that approach like if you're
not tracking calories or macros, but you're weighing everything
out, so all that's getting accounted for even if you are
not measuring it out necessarily.
Do you have any idea kind of how much more you're eating in a
building phase versus the cutting phase?
Are you gradually tapering your intake that entire cut, or are
you just dropping it to a lower intake and then holding that
stable? Like how do you typically go
about it? So here's the thing, and this is
pretty much why I I decided to stop.
I look back and I have never really been in a building phase.
So I I train hard. I always train as hard as I can.
Even now, you know, it's harder now because I'm older, my body
is a little bit broken down, but I never like ate excess calories
to try and build muscle. And so in the years, the past
eight years, my muscle mass has probably declined a little bit
every year just because I'm not pushing that boundary anymore.
So I've just been in, I guess, a maintenance phase as far as
eating and and working out everything, pushing as hard as I
can, but not pushing to gain size.
It's because I'm comfortable where I'm at, but it's not
enough anywhere. So that's why I thought, OK, I'm
not going to compete. But as far as neutral nutrition,
so I'll eat the same things pretty much.
I worked with the nutritionist Leo King from in Canada.
He I think was in 22 or 23 when I started having him do my
nutrition plan. And so he gave me a plan and I
just stay on that plan now. I mean, I just do the measuring
of how much, how much things weigh, the proportions of
protein, carbs and fats. And then I can eat vegetables as
much as I want. So I stay with that plan and all
the way up until the show, I would stay with that plan but
clean it up. So less sauce every week and
then until like the last two weeks I would use no sauces,
which is fine. You know, BBQ sauce and stuff is
not that much. And then at times before the
last two weeks, I would actually increase my calories.
So I would almost increase my calories the last two weeks a
little bit at a time just to keep full because my body was
still losing even though I was eating the same amount.
And so I would just maintain it and, and fill up towards the
show. Whereas it's opposite where
people cut down more. But my workout stayed this.
Everything stayed the same except for the extra sugar,
sauces and things like. That so yeah, it's like the the
staples food wise, like chicken, rice, broccoli, like that kind
of stuff. Chicken.
So I'll eat like oatmeal, I love my oatmeal with a protein powder
for breakfast. And then I'll have chicken and
rice and vegetables and meat and riten vegetables and then Turkey
and sweet potatoes and vegetables.
So probably 4 to 5 meals a day of of a variety of things.
Chicken breast, Turkey, ground Turkey and then petite sirloin.
So, you know, meat. I didn't watch the fat as much,
but I knew that in chicken breast and ground Turkey, you're
really not getting all that much fat.
Yeah, so. But yeah, totally opposite of
mine with the high fat. I've been doing like 400 grams
of fat these past couple weeks on an experiment so just crazy.
And then so that's the thing I worry about about people who are
doing the keto with not as much knowledge as you is that they
think they can just eat any kind of fat and things.
Is that bad for the body as far as well?
You gotta, I mean, you want to make sure you're still consuming
quality fats like I'm going to be doing, you know, quality
animal fats, olive oil, avocado oil, like I'm not going to be
getting all my fat from, you know, cotton.
Sea oil or cheese? Yeah, stuff like that.
But like, I get my blood work drawn on a super regular basis
too. And like with this experiment, I
increased my fats like literally doubled and all of my
cholesterol markers actually improved.
So it was kind of interesting to see that unfold for sure.
Yeah, that's kind of like eating more and still losing weight,
but you're doing it scientifically and you're doing
it monitoring everything. Whereas people is like I said,
it's the education part. They're just doing it because
it's the fad thing. Oh, I'm going to go keto this
week, but you don't know anything about keto.
You know you need to do the research first.
So even with bodybuilding, I want to do a show.
Well, OK, I'm just going to not eat carbs and everybody goes no
carbs. It's like then you have 0
energy. So, you know, it's a lot of
education and I'm not quite sure how to get it out there.
The good thing about it is this year I have, well, this is my
first year. I have a lot of teenagers.
So a friend of mine is like a coach, a conditioning coach.
And so he's sending a lot of his kids my way, which is good
because they're seeing that there's, there's a way to do
things without having to take any kind of substances.
So that's yeah. Yeah, the the youth is super
important. Like I was invited to speak at
the local high school football team the other day.
We, I put them through a workout and I was talking to him about
nutrition and I'm like, this is the way to do it.
Because normally, you know, I'll get clients or, you know, older
people that have already kind of made a bunch of mistakes and
they're trying to get healthy after they've let themselves go.
But like, you know, targeting the people that are, you know,
early, early teenagers, it's like, let's catch them when
they're young. That way they kind of have the
right trajectory right out the gate.
Exactly. It's like a proactive way, kind
of like my migraine things. If I continue to exercise, I
don't get them. So if you continue your
lifestyle, your healthy fitness lifestyle journey, then you can
stay on it a lot longer. So hopefully that's the message
we want to give out. That's the message we're
shouting for sure. What about your training in
cardio, like your, your training stayed pretty consistent whether
you're in a build or whether you're an offseason or prep.
And then cardio, I guess you just gradually scale that up
throughout the prep. Yeah, well, I pretty much do the
same cardio all the time. I do everything pretty much the
same all the time. I have the, so I always, I used
to teach a HIT class and so I do that in the morning first thing,
you know, fasted just that's I can't eat until I've done
something. That's just how my body works
now because I've trained it that way.
So I'll do maybe 20-30 minutes of that just to get my body
warm. I found that as I get older, it
takes a lot longer for my body to warm up.
So be mindful as you get, as you age, you'll need a little bit
more warm up time and then I'll do weights because I don't work.
I can hit like legs in the morning.
So I split that up from whatever I have time.
Maybe I'll do quads, really focus on quads one day,
hamstrings the next day, and then maybe focus more on glutes
the third day. So I have like a little
separation of my lower body. And then if I go back in the
evening, then I'll hit chest, back, shoulders and then arms.
I have the luxury of splitting my workouts out if I want to,
and some days I'll do both in the morning, some days not.
It all depends, but that's been pretty much my workout schedule
for the last 12 years, I think. And then I'll do a little bit of
cardio at the end just to walk things out, get the lactic acid
out and stuff, and then all good.
But it's just that consistency and the maintenance.
So I do something every day no matter what.
What if it's just cardio? It's just cardio, but I move
every day so that I feel good. That's the key.
And you've pretty much competed, you said pretty much every year.
I mean, there's probably been a few years where you took off,
but over those 40 competitions you were competing relatively
consistently without a significant.
I did. I did take a break from like my
mid 30s to my 40s through my 40s.
Yeah. I just, I just didn't want there
are less and less competitors after a while.
And then when I started competing, I wanted to do a show
when I was 50. So I geared up for that.
But not really. I mean, I, I planned on it, but
there weren't very many female bodybuilders.
Maybe one or two. Sometimes I'd be the only one.
And so it was, it was kind of not anti climatic as I guess you
could say, because you would show up and then there would be
nobody there. So when I found the Natural
Federation, the first couple of years I showed up, there were
1020 people. So I, it was exciting again.
And now it seems to be dropping. You know, it goes, it goes in
waves with the women. We just, I don't know where the
women bodybuilders are anymore. I think it's because there's so
many more categories that they can compete in that it's just
kind of fallen off. Yeah, there's, there's a lot,
there's been a lot of changes. I mean, just within the WNBF
Federation, they're now kind of linked up with the NANBF
Federation, which I think it's a positive.
You know, they're kind of joining forces there.
But there's so many female categories that like when it was
just bodybuilding, that's what females did.
But when there's now bikini, there's figure, there's fit
body, there's I guess physique is kind of like the fit body
within the Debian being federation, because NPC still
has physique, right? They still have physique and you
know, for a while they, they drop bodybuilding altogether,
but they've, I think they're bringing it back now in some of
the local shows. I know they have women's
bodybuilding, but there aren't very many competitors.
It's still big with physique because the IFBB pros have
physique, but I don't know if they have bodybuilding anymore.
There's other federations like the Wings of Strength.
They have female bodybuilders, but those women are, oh, they're
so they're so big. Those are.
Those are not bigger than. You they're bigger.
Than you? Yeah, they're way bigger than
me. Definitely not natural
federations and the Wings of Strength.
No, no. And I think that's why for me,
it's easy for people to look at me and say, oh, she's little.
I can do that because I don't have to be huge.
And so, you know, keeping this frame, it kind of dispels, like
we talked about earlier, the myth of you have to be huge to
be a bodybuilder. And it's really about, you know,
the muscularity, the the conditioning, the symmetry, it
comes down to that. Even little people can can win.
So totally just yeah, that's. Let me ask you this, Lisa.
So I get a lot of podcast guests, especially here lately.
It's like HRTTRT, like that is very popular right now.
And it's not like it's even they're coming at it from like a
performance enhancing drug standpoint for competitors.
Like that's obviously still there as well.
But a lot of people are going that route as they're going
through menopause, as they're aging, just to, you know, stack
the chips in their favor and, you know, go through that more
gracefully, so to speak. And a lot of the science that's
coming out is kind of painting that in a very positive flight,
Like, hey, there's safe ways to do it.
There's the ways you can test and it can be done properly.
So for you, you know, being healthy, having fitness and
nutrition is such a big part of your life.
What kept you on the natural realm instead of using some of
that? And again, not even for
performance, but just from like a overall health and well-being
standpoint. One, I'm cheap, I don't, I don't
take anything. I don't take the only thing I
take as far as somebody said, a multivitamin.
So you know those little emergency packets, the kind you
mix with water has vitamin C and all that.
It's the only thing I take. I don't take creatine.
I've I've taken maybe A1 bottle of creatine in my whole life.
I just don't want to buy it. If I win something at a show
like a protein powder, I'll use it.
But other than that, I don't take supplements, I don't take
anything. And one, I can't remember to
take it and two, I just don't want to buy it.
So I just stay now completely natural because I'm cheap and
that's not. Resulted in any like crazy
adverse effects like you're like, you know, menopausal years
like testosterone naturally declining like that didn't
result in crazy hot flashes or anything like that.
Oh, I had the hot flashes, but I, I was around so many people
that already went through it and I'd make fun of them.
And so I thought, oh, that's just coming back that karma for
me because now I'm having it. But you know, that was in my 50s
Now I don't have, I don't have hot flashes.
I don't have any of that other stuff.
And I don't know, I maybe I just don't notice it.
But you know, the hot flashes, yes.
Oh, you definitely notice those things.
But other than that, it's just part of life.
I mean, that's what happens to people when they age.
You know, they go through the changes.
It's hard to to deal with it mentally at the time, but then
you get over it and then it passes.
So this too shall pass kind of a thing.
I really appreciate that outlook because I'm obviously natural as
well and I just promote that as a lifestyle.
And I feel like with all the popularity that HRT has gotten
lately, I mean, you can, I can totally get behind the
biohacking and the sciences and wanting to optimize.
But at the same time, like we're human beings and we're meant to
go through these natural processes and some are better
than others. Some might not be desirable, but
it's a phase, just like puberty's a phase and people
aren't taking, I mean, I guess now people are taking stuff
during puberty years to, you know, block testosterone, but
generally people aren't. And it's just you get through
it. And I feel like there's a lot to
be said for that, you know, and like now, now that you are
through it, like you're, you're not experiencing any of those
adverse effects. Your training's still dialed in.
You look amazing. So it's just a just.
Yeah, I mean, it's The thing is you have to, it's mental.
A lot of it's mental. You're you're gonna like, like
losing hair, you know, you can fix that.
You can either take a pill or you can do some other stuff.
Weight loss, everything has a medical fix to it these days.
But it is like you said, it's part of life.
It happens. You know, dogs don't take extra
testosterone because they're getting older.
They just don't know. So they just live the best life
that they can, as happy as they can be.
And then they go and I think it everything happens for a reason.
We are who we are. We can be the best version of
ourselves by just trying to be the best version of ourselves.
And that part, it's harder mentally, I think, because even
now I look in the mirror and I go, oof, I almost wanted to
compete again. Because you miss that.
You miss being at that great shape and, you know, having that
physique again. But at the same time, you have
to realize, well, you're not going to get it back.
I'm not 30. I'm not 40.
So yeah, it's it's being mentally healthy that helps get
you through the physical changes too.
You kind of have to cycle around those things.
And totally apart from the competition aspect of things, I
mean the, the if you live your life like a natural bodybuilder,
you age so much more graceful. Like I would assume you said
you're 61 now. 6260. 2 Now, yeah, I mean, you've discovered
the fountain of youth, in my opinion.
But like you look at your peers that are also in their 60s, like
I would assume that you're able to move, you're able to spend
time with, you know, grandkids and stuff way better than they
are. You're able to get up and down
stairs better than they are. You're able to like jump up and
have some spring in your step still.
And they're, they're not able to do that because they didn't live
their life with that compounding routine that you have.
Yeah, I think, I mean, it's a plus.
I still want to do the things that I want to do and be able to
do it. You know, I've retired now, so I
have freedom to do and travel and do things that I wanted to
do when I was working. And it really it is the
longevity of it. I I don't know how long, you
know, people say I want to live to be 100.
Well, I don't think I want to live to be 100, but I want to
have good quality in life until the day I'm not here anymore.
And that's, that's the part. It's all about the lifestyle and
being happy. I feel good and so I'm always
happy. People say why?
Why are you so happy? Or how can you be happy all the
time? It's like, because I don't have
anything to be unhappy about. I'm healthy.
I can do what I want, you know, it's and I live simple.
I go to the gym and I come home. Then I go to the gym and I come
home. I don't have too many troubles
in my life. You are always smiling.
I don't think I've ever seen you with a frown, which I appreciate
for sure. It's it's noticed.
Well, thank you. Well, it's the only time I found
it's because I can't see and so I'm looking like this.
It's like I just can't see. So with you having you were
competing for so long, when did you start judging?
When did that come into the picture?
Well, I started competing with the WNBF in 16 and I think I
started test judging at in 2016. I met Bob and Tina in April at
my first show and then they were talking about going to Hawaii
for a show and I was going to go to Hawaii anyway the time that
the show was there. So I just showed up at that show
in June and they're like, hey, you want to test judge?
I said sure, why not? And so I've been test judging
and now I'm judging quite a bit and I just love it.
I think I like judging more than competing because it's, you
know, you meet to meet, you get to meet so many people.
Have you noticed the judging panel is it's usually the same
people who are consistent. And so it's like meeting up with
family members. They get it's it's just a great
experience and then we get that encourage athletes.
So it's just fun. I can't wait to be at your show.
We're so. Excited.
I know I'm I'm super excited about it.
You've judged me. I don't know.
Probably more more of my shows than not I would guess over the
years. A couple of times, yeah, I know.
I remember. It's like, wow, when you when,
you know, it's kind of those things with judges, you see
people come out on stage and then there's always one or two
that come out and you go like, OK, this is what it's all about.
And you were one of those. I'm like, oh, you remember that
guy? Yeah.
So you made a very good impression, which is which is
great. And This is why you are who you
are these days. But yeah, you just as a judge,
you see the, the great competition, the great physiques
and then you encourage them. And then with you, I know you
came to feedback, didn't you? You came to the judge's
feedback. The good ones always do.
Those are the ones who want to continue to improve.
And then, you know, so I'm going to just shout this one out that
if you want to be better, you need to know what you're doing
or what you're not doing. The people who never come to
feedback are the ones who complain.
They show the one good picture of them on stage and they say I
should have won. I should have, would have, could
have. But they don't know.
And until you find out, you shouldn't be saying anything.
I have, I have a real pet peeve about that.
People complaining about how they placed but they didn't get
feedback so they don't know. Totally, totally agree.
What is your, has there been any trends that you've seen over the
years as a judge? Like have you noticed, you know,
competitors bringing more signs or more conditioning or is
conditioning lacking from what it was 10 years ago?
Like have you just noticed any trends as a judge?
There's several competitor mentions she has competed at
worlds 4 Times Now four years in a row and she noticed that in
figure that not that she's never competed against the same
people. So now I think some women are
taking time off to to try and build.
Whereas it used to be women would just compete and compete
and compete. And I think a lot more athletes
are now taking more time off to to put on some size because they
see how important it is. So goes with the trend that
people are getting bigger. I think the bikini girls are
coming in a little bit harder at the higher level.
Now we're talking aspiring to that world level that I think
people are just getting more muscular because they're
training harder. They know there's more science
behind the actual training and the nutrition part.
So you know, people are coming in with a little more size.
I've noticed the women at the higher level of bodybuilding are
coming in leaner, whereas before they were coming in big, but now
they're coming in big and lean. So where my conditioning held
off for so long, it's not happening anymore.
It's, it's about everything. It's about the conditioning, the
size and the symmetries, you know, So it's really evolving
like with men. I'm sure you've seen that the
men are also getting bigger with the conditioning and so it's
just an evolving sport. And some of these, I mean, I was
at a competition 2 weekends ago, another show here in Arkansas,
natural shows in AMBF show and man like their, their largest
category was the teen category. And like some of these teens are
just super impressive. And I'm like, where did that
come from? I don't recall being like that
when I was a teenager. No, I feel you.
See that I have posing classes and these kids are coming in
1516 years old. I'm like, Oh my gosh, what have
you been eating? Because I need to eat that too.
I mean, they're just, you know, I don't know if it's what they
always say. Oh, it's the the things that
they feed the cows because they're getting all that extra,
extra help. Right.
Maybe. I don't know.
I don't know what it is. I think maybe they're starting a
little bit younger with actual training because of sports, you
know, so competitive that they're looking for
scholarships. So they're really trying to gear
themselves up to be more competitive at the high school
level so that maybe they can get a scholarship to go on and play
college ball, too. So it could be social media.
Yeah, it. Could be social media for sure.
They're starting young because of them.
I know we're probably going to sound biased because you and I
are both in the Debut and BF as competitors, judges, and
promoters. But am I wrong in thinking that
at the top level, the world's federation or the world's
competition for the WNBF just seems to be like a totally other
caliber than the other federation's top tier?
Well, yeah. Well, it's different because
it's natural. Are are we talking natural
federations? Not even just natural, but just
yeah, I mean all the natural federations even I feel like
worlds within all the natural federations is like next level.
It's the next level, Yeah. But though that's the best of
the best when it's the World Championships, right?
So athletes from all over the world come and bring it.
Whereas I don't know the, I don't know much about any of the
other federations. I just kind of, I'm kind of
tunnel vision because I don't know about it.
I don't really care about the other federations they don't
have. They have so many shows
throughout the year that, you know, I don't know if they even
have like a world's a final destination kind of a thing.
I think like the IFBB has, you know, the Olympia and things
like that, But that's just at their level or at their
federation that level. So that's where ours is.
And people always think, well, I want to see if I get my IFBB pro
cards. Like why?
Why would you want to come in last place to prove that you're
a natural athlete? I mean, there's just no
comparison. So, but I do think that the
world's is is that's, that's the place to be, that's I.
Feel like honestly, even if we're comparing the IFBB to the
Debbie and BF, like I feel like the level of conditioning for
the natural athletes at that world's competition is far and
above that of the conditioning. And just like the like the truly
dense muscle of those in the IFBB league at that level, I
mean, certainly they're much larger.
But like when I look at the graininess and just like the
hard chiseled physiques of the the natural competitors, it's
like I don't see that at the IFBB Olympia.
No, it's just size, all that size and then whatever they're
taking to dehydrate themselves so that their skin can get paper
thin. But you think about how
unhealthy that is. Whereas when you do it slowly
and you do it. Gradually that your body just,
you know, comes to that point where you get on stage and it's
like, wow, like look at Babakar. I mean, that guy's a natural.
He's phenomenal. I know he's the only male to win
three times, right? So that's just says something
about his physique. And I think he got bigger this
year. I don't I don't know how that
happens. But yeah, I think I don't know,
I don't know much about the the non tested as far as how the
body changes. All I know is that most of them
are taking making something like a diuretic to drain the excess
water and they get a, a look, but it's not the same as the the
look that the natural competitors get.
So you know, there's that difference, but.
Yeah. And by and large, the natural
competitors, you know, long after they're done competing,
they tend to hold on to the quality size better than those
that are taking a bunch of gear to get that size.
And they're, they're both, they're all working out hard.
I mean, I'm not taking that from them.
But like when you look at the IFBB competitors that are just,
you know, walking around shredded at £300, then they stop
competing in 10/15/20 years later, they've downsized
drastically. Whereas the natural competitors,
you know, there's, they're still healthy and they're not that
dialed in, chiseled, but they still have the shape and
symmetry they've built over a lifetime.
Yeah, that's, that's what I've seen as well.
And then they're healthy, their body, their joints, everything
else, they're still moving. Whereas like, you know, you look
at Ronnie Coleman and you look at all those guys that their
bodies are just trashed out and they just can't, they don't
function like they used to because they put so much wear
and tear on it early on that now their quality of life is not is
just not the same. But yeah, that's, you know,
that's why the big masters push with the WNBF too.
It's because, you know, we need to address the people who are
still going at it after all of these years.
So I think that's why they want to push the masters categories a
little bit further is that we need to make them still compete
because it's hard to compete. I'm 61 and I was competing
against 30 year olds, 20 year olds and, you know, just well,
smells. Yeah, But you know, this it's,
it's, it's hard. It's still hard.
We, we can't maintain it for that long and we just don't have
the size that they have now. But so, you know, there needs to
be a masters category for the people who are.
But at the same time, people always think, oh, masters just
means that they're old. It's like, no, they've been
doing it a lot longer. So the muscle maturity and the
conditioning is that much better at that age.
So just the size isn't quite the same.
But don't count out old people. They're still.
Going still. In the game so.
Do you think you're actually retired from competing again, or
do you think you'll grace the stage again at some point?
I know everybody sees, everybody thinks that I'm going to get
back on stage unless they have an ultra female bodybuilding
which is 60 and above. And I still don't think I want
to. I still don't think I want to
get back on stage again. I really enjoying judging.
You know, I think I judge almost close to 10 shows a year, so
that just keeps me busy and I really enjoy it.
So I'm good without. I don't have that.
Oh, I wish I was up there. You know how sometimes you watch
something and you think, oh man, I wish I could still do it.
I'm OK. I sit back and I judge now.
I write the scores down and it's all good.
Yeah, I don't think I'll be back.
Well, I'm going to put myself on the spot here a little bit.
So you, I don't remember the last show that I did that you
judged, but the last competitive season I did was 2023.
When you look at me as a competitor, what do I need to, I
feel like I've got the conditioning part dialed in.
Like I don't think I need to. I can't really get any more
condition than I've gotten. Where can I make improvement?
I'm saying this so the listeners can like hold me accountable
because I'm just putting it all out there right now.
Well, you know, like I said, as soon as you walk out, it was,
you know, everybody just like wow, you know, your physique is
just, it's just, it's eye-catching because of your
condition and you're just like dry, you're shredded.
Your muscularity is good. I mean, you're good symmetry and
everything. The only thing is that as you
progress, you're going to have to put on more size.
That's that's it. I don't know where you came in
as far as your weight class, but you always want to be the
heaviest at the lightest weight class that you can be in, so.
I'm typically lightweight and I'm normally in the, the, you
know, the other end of lightweight, the lighter end of
lightweight. Yeah, I think I get down to like
one 51153 last season, but I need to be heavy lightweights
for sure. Heavier lightweights, yeah.
See, like, well, you know, Leo, I mean, with the lightweights,
all you guys come in with shredded glutes.
I mean, how do you judge eight people with shredded glutes?
It's ridiculous. As far as conditioning, so the
guys are coming in conditioned at the natural level, at the
world level, everybody has that conditioning.
So you need to separate yourself by maybe having just a little
bit more size. Again, aiming for the heaviest
of that lightweight class. And that's just going to put on
more muscle. It's going to just add to your
symmetry. So you know, the bigger
shoulders, good quads, you already have good quads.
I remember your quads. You're like boom, spot on.
So anything to make your waist look smaller, so create that
more X frame smoke and mirrors kind of thing.
The bigger the shoulders, the smaller the waist because that's
just going to add to that symmetry.
You know, like Bob a car, he's got those tiny little waist and
big shoulders. So for you, because you're
already a lightweight, you're going to have to come in heavier
at the lightweight. Does that make sense?
Totally, totally. This is why I take so many years
off in between shows like I did 23 and I may not compete again
till 27 but I guarantee you when you see me in 27 it's going to
be a whole of the package. They're like, oh, look at that.
He's heavy at the lightweight and it takes out.
So I'm going to ask you, how long does it take you to put on
like good, a good 2 lbs of quality muscle?
I mean 2 lbs. I feel like if I'm in a building
phase the entire year, you know, £2 a year is pretty realistic.
Okay, yeah, because everybody you see guys at the jewelry, I'm
gonna I'm gonna put on 10 lbs of muscle by August like.
Yeah, wow. I mean, if you like just started
working out, like the first year I started working out, I put on
like 20 lbs and it was pretty solid.
It wasn't solid muscle, but it was pretty solid.
But like, if you're a seasoned athlete and you've been lifting
for five plus years, like, you know, 2 lbs of muscle a years is
really solid, especially for doing it naturally.
Obviously, yeah. Yeah, I know.
That's why. The thing is, you know, I've
been working out for what, 30 some years for me to put on, put
on any muscle I really have to go on a building phase and I
don't want to eat that much to to do that.
And so that's why I just said, you know, that's why I probably
won't ever get back on stage again.
I'm just too small to to get back there and I don't want to
put in the work to do it. So do you just dislike eating
the amount of food necessary to put on that size, or you just
don't like losing that much definition to accomplish that
goal? Or what is the hesitation there?
I think it is. It's, it's, it's both.
I don't want to just spend all my day eating and preparing
foods. I don't like feeling a little
heavier than I normally feel just because you know, you have
to put on and a little bit of extra weight.
And I just, I kind of like the way I look.
It's just comfortable for me and I don't have to do a lot to
maintain the look that I have. So it's just having a happy
balance in life. Whereas I'm I'm good with where
I'm at. Totally makes sense.
Talk to me about the the show that you're promoting.
So what was the motivation for becoming a promoter?
What are you doing different? It's going to set your show
apart. Like give me the details on
that. Oh my gosh.
OK, So I never wanted to promote a show ever because I'm around
it so much that I see all the stress people go through.
So that was never on my radar. Then Bob calls me and, you know,
we lost the promoter that had The One Show in the Northwest
here in Oregon, and he said we need a show.
It's like this was me, OK. And so I agreed to do it
thinking that you know, it, it wouldn't be so bad.
And then of course having to find a hotel and the venue and
so many other things, it just, it was overwhelming trying to do
a website. I haven't so I haven't taught
for years. And so for me to get back on the
computer, it was just mind blowing.
I forgot how to do anything on the computer.
So it's just, but then I have so much help as well.
I've got, you know, the kings up in Canada who are just more than
willing to help out with anything that I need.
Katie is a great, you know, they're all great resources and
really helpful, except Katie. I don't know if you've ever done
Katie's shows or heard about her.
I've never competed in them, no, But Katie's great.
Katie's great. She's great.
She sets the bar very high because she does a lot of swag.
Everybody in her show gets a sword.
Everybody gets a bag of goodies, all the competitors, and I'm
like, I don't have the money to do that.
And one, I'm horrible at asking for money.
So everything for this show is coming out of my pocket.
I'm just paying for everything because I don't know how to ask
for sponsorship and I don't want to.
But luckily the venue is not a big venue, so it's a small one.
Expecting a smaller show because it's the first one and yeah,
we're just seeing what happens. But the more I do posing classes
and the more I meet people and help them with their journey,
the more fun it's become. It's just dealing with all the
other stuff that is really hard. There's a lot of administrative
stuff because I mean like I'm a first time promoter this year as
well. We're in the same boat in that
regard. And it's like, you know, I've
got all the the business stuff that I do.
So that's helped tremendous. Like, I don't know if I don't
know how I would do a show had I not already been doing business
and websites that design and all the stuff that we've done here.
So I feel good there. But like, you know, promoting
it, marketing it, drumming up interests, like going to
different posing seminars, hosting posing seminars, you
know, putting Flyers out, like all of the stuff that goes on
behind the scenes. It's like it's.
It's no trivial task by any means.
I don't know how people do it and I don't know how people do
multiple shows. It's, it's it's crazy.
I, yeah, when I sometimes I get into it going, what did I do?
What, what did I agree to do this for?
So, yeah. And I don't have, I don't train
people. I don't have any business
background or anything. So I'm came, I came in with
nothing. And then I at least I ordered
T-shirts. I have T-shirts.
Well, you've got a massive heart, Lisa, and that goes a
long ways for sure. So I've got no doubt that your
show is going to be a knockout success.
Well, thanks, You know, I did. I tell you, I had an athlete
that follows you. So she's been training, not
training, but she's been doing posing classes with me and she
was so ready to come to your show, but financially would have
been hard for her. But she is like an avid keto
person and so and she did well. She did Katie's show.
She won the debut class and the novice class for bodybuilding.
And she did it all with keto. Yeah.
What's what's her name? Her name is Alicia Philbach.
I'll look her up, that's awesome.
Yeah, yeah, I think her Instagram is Phillip Backside or
something like that. But yeah, I tried to get her to
go to your show. That would have been awesome.
Do you have female bodybuilders? So what I found, and you could
probably test this too, is like competitors are the worst.
They do not register until the last minute.
And I was never like that. I mean, as a competitor myself,
like I register as soon as I have my calendar mapped out.
Like I register as soon as I can so that I can put that date on
the calendar. It's like spoken for, it's done.
It's off of my off my chest. And like most competitors don't
do that. They like wait till the last
minute, which as a promoter is like horrendous because you get
all these expenses coming in and there's no revenue.
I tell you, I under, I totally get that.
And you know, it's like of a panic point because I've never
done this before and everybody says don't worry about it,
they'll register. They'll register like I want
them to register now. I want to use their entry money
to buy the prizes for them. It's like there's no revenue at
this point. So it is.
But you know, that's what people do these days.
They wait until the last minute to see if they're ready because
if they're not, they're not going to enter and and lose
their money so. See, I think that's flawed
thinking. Like I feel like if you register
and it's on the calendar, it's set in stone, then it's like
you're going to have that in the back of your mind when you're
training, when you're hitting your macros, when you're doing
your cardio. It's like if you know you're
going to step on stage and there's no talking yourself out
of it, then you're not gonna shirk that responsibility.
So I feel like exactly competitors would be doing
themselves a favour if they register early and set that that
they set. That date, yeah, it's like this
is this is your goal. This is your deadline right
here. You need to be ready.
But yeah, they don't do the the work ethic these days is a
little lacking. I think, you know, things have
changed since before, because before people would be like,
yeah, I'm going to enter this show and I'm going to do that
show. So.
But these days it's easier to to to to back out than it is to
stick with it. So there's there's that.
Yeah, I know. Well, what, what is the the
website for your show? I mean, anything I can do to
help promote it and spread the word?
I mean, let me know for sure. I'm there for you.
Yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, because that's one thing too, is
I'm terrible about social media, so my posts have been a little
less than desirable. But it's just a Portland rain
natural classic, so that's. Portland Rain National Classic.
Like REIGN, like a king or rain. Nice.
Yeah, I used to play for a softball team called the
Portland Rain, and so that it just popped up in my head, it's
like, OK, that's that's doable. But yeah.
So how do you ask for sponsorship?
I mean, how do you approach companies?
I honestly haven't really promoted or asked for
sponsorships. I've got it on my website.
So like if you go to our competition website,
naturalstatesavages.com, there's like a, you know, a page to
register or if you want interested in sponsorships,
we've got like 3 different tiers and people can do that.
But I speak at a bunch of conferences and I've, I'm a
vendor at a bunch of conferences with the booths.
So I kind of modeled what I've liked on the vendor side, kind
of like for my sponsors, like we've got one company that just
opened up. They're like a DEXA scan and
they've got like they've got DEXA scan, VO2 Max, like a 3D
imaging software and like resting metabolic rate
calculator. And they just opened their doors
right down the road from us and they're going to be a sponsor.
They're going to have a booth there, but also like my company
is going to be a sponsor. It's like we're going to have
our keto bricks there and then I've got like a massage practice
there, a couple supplement companies.
But I didn't really, I didn't really pursue anybody that I
hadn't already had a relationship with.
I just like told the people that I already had a good working
relationship with of hey, I've got a show coming up, would love
to have you as a sponsor if you're interested.
We'll have a booth for you or something like that.
So that's how I did it, but there are probably way better
ways to do it. Yeah, well, we'll live and
learn, right? So the next show we do, it'll be
a little bit better. Right now I'm just wanting to
get people involved and get the word out that we're doing it.
So just saying, hey, you know, I'm not going to try.
Just come and do put up a booth or something so that people know
who you are as well. So it's kind of a it's, yeah,
it's it's just kind of a word, word of mouth kind of a thing
for me at this point. But I'll get better at it
because I want to do more for the athletes.
Yeah. And and that, I mean, that's the
main thing. That's what I'm trying to really
relay it through my messaging. And I feel like when you're
doing it for the athletes first and foremost, then like that
positive word of mouth spreads. And like competitors want to do
your show because you you're taking care of them, you're
offering value to them. So I think you know yours will
continue to grow because like I said, you've got a heart of gold
and that doesn't go unnoticed. So like it will continue to get
better and bigger every single year.
Yeah, as do you. And This is why I liked you from
the get go. You showed up, you were willing
to help and do anything. I think you've volunteered at
Aaron's show the first time that we actually got to after the
world's backstage thing. And it's like, ah, this guy's
for real. He's there to help out.
He's working, he's doing everything that he needs to do.
Because a lot of people don't see that backstage stuff, the
setting up the, you know, papering the walls, papering the
floors, you know, doing all the setup and everything.
People don't see that and judging.
They just think we show up, wear the T-shirt and and score
things. But you know, there's a lot to
be said about what happens in the back scenes.
So when I met you and I saw that, it's like, oh, you guys,
we need you need to get a hold of him because he's he's the
real deal. So yeah, kudos to you for for
being who you are. It's been a pleasure.
It's been awesome because when we got like a family, like we've
got like all the WNBF promoters, Bob and Tina, like we've got
that, you know, group WhatsApp message thread, It's like
everybody's here for the right reasons.
We're all wanting to help with the athletes and like just make
it a better sport. Like bring natural bodybuilding
more center stage. And when you talk to people that
are that have that shared mission, it's like we're all
working together. Like we don't have this
competitive vibe. We're competitive on stage.
Like if I'm competing, you know, like I'm ripping your head off.
But like as a promoter, as a judge, as a fellow competitor,
like we're all just trying to grow the sport so that it's a
healthier option and viable for people to do so.
Yeah, we're all aligned in that. Yeah, well, just show up for
each other and that's why we're so excited to come to your show,
Terry. Katie and I were like, yeah, we
get to go to Keto Savage show so.
Yeah, it's going to be good. I'm excited to have you out
there. My dad's going to be cooking BBQ
for all the judges and competitors, so you'll be
getting some homegrown BBQ. It's going to be good.
It's going to be it's. Going to be good like.
Venue. So I'm super excited about it.
Yeah, we're really looking forward to it.
I'm sure it'll be a great show. Who else is coming?
Do you know judges as far as you have a full panel already?
Yeah, I've got all 7. Let me see here a couple of them
because like Nickerson, they were going to both come but then
they had a wedding or something to go to.
Yeah, his his dog's getting married like in Germany or
something. Yeah, yeah.
So viable excuse for sure. So a couple of my judges, Bob
reached out and recommended some NANBF judges.
So I've got, I guess since we're all sharing the same guidelines
and I think I've got 2 judges there.
Kenneth Fritz is going to be a judge.
I got, I got the full panel, but I got to go back and look and
see all the names. OK.
So Kenneth, first, he was from here because he was at that show
that you were at, right? Yeah.
Is he, is he over there now? Is he?
Did he know he's still, he's still up in the Northwest?
Everybody in the Northwest, like it's funny because I'm in
Arkansas, but most of my competitive journey has been in
the Pacific Northwest. So like most of my connections
are with y'all up in that region.
So yeah, we're all, we're all over the place, but we're all
one big family. It's what exactly?
And then we'll all do what we need to do.
So if there's anything you need in the meantime, just let us
know and then we'll help help you on this end because you
know, we are in the Pacific Northwest.
You're stomping grounds. Yeah, 100%.
Well, if there's anything I could do to help you with your
show endeavors, Lisa, you just reach out and let me know
because I want to see you succeed with it and I'm happy to
help. Thank you.
That's I so appreciate that. It's been awesome.
So the the website one more time for people listening.
Portland Rain Natural Classic. And what is your and what is
your social profile that you're promoting?
I think I have L2 Portland rain at so that's my Instagram and
then. Yeah, L2 Portland range.
So most of those things I think are on the website and how to
contact me and and so forth. So perfect.
Yeah. Well, I'll link out to all that
make it easy for people to find you for sure.
Thank you. I really appreciate that.
So yeah, I know you have a ton of followers, so hopefully
that'll go. Well, whether they compete or
not, it's a different question though.
So hopefully, hopefully that will work out and we'll get some
competitors at both of our shows for sure.
Both of our shows, yeah, back-to-back, do both the
polygraphs no good. There you go, perfect.
Kill two birds and one. Yeah.
Well, Lisa, I think the world of you.
You are truly on top of the fountain of youth.
You look great. Every single, every single time
I see you on stage, you look better.
I mean, you're killing it. You're an inspiration to many.
And I'm just grateful to know you and call your friend.
Me too. Same here.
Thank you so much. All right, well, you take care
and good luck with the baby. Appreciate it, Appreciate it.
We'll keep you posted for sure. All right, take care.