Hello, ladies and gents Roberts is Quito Savage.com, and today I
have special guest Robb, Goodwin on the line fellow, ketogenic
bodybuilder. And I've never talked about
before. So, I didn't know what to expect
from this conversation. I just went into it, blindly
hoping for the best and I was blown away.
So he is more of the high protein, moderate fat, low carb
type of guy. I am more of the high fat
moderate protein, low carb, kind of guy.
And when you, when you bring those two together, you,
oftentimes get this just massive disparity between certain ways
of doing things and everybody at each other's throats.
So I didn't know if that was going to happen or not, but
we're cut from the same, the same cloth when it comes to our
mindset and approach from a, from a mentality standpoint on
how to do bodybuilding, how to do intense anything in life.
And then we transcended that. And start talking about the
specific nuts and bolts and nuances, two different types of
macro manipulation metabolism, you know, calorie intake
hormone. Of going through a prep and
there's a lot that we have in common is if there's a
definitely some differences but we're able to sit down and speak
civilly with respect towards one another and we both came out of
conversation, Having learned a ton having appreciate each
other's viewpoints and having benefited from it.
And I've got no doubt in my mind whatsoever, the any bit of LED,
listen to this podcast will experience the same.
So without further Ado, sit back, don't relax, just get your
notepad, get your pan ready, sharpen your pencil, take some
notes because you're gonna come out of this.
Conversation, having taken some very tangible tangible steps
that you can do in your Fitness Nutrition Journey, hands down.
No questions. Asked thoroughly enjoyed the
conversation. I've got no doubt you will as
well. Without further Ado, enjoy the
conversation with Rob good one. And we are live Rob Gordon.
How are you? Ma'am, I'm doing great by
brother. How are you?
It's great to be here. Good to have you man.
Good heavy. So I'm curious.
I'm assuming Rob is short for Robert, right?
It is not see. My parents were hippies back in
the 60s and the only, my wife, and my mother called me Robbie.
That is actually my name. Yeah, Robbie is actually.
Okay. So did you do you introduce
yourself as Rob or Robbie? I introduced myself as Rob but
you can't tell anybody my name is Robbie, wait a minute.
It's already out there. There's never mind.
It's funny because I ask because my name is is Robert.
I've always introduced myself as Robert, but for whatever reason,
everybody calls me, Rob, I never introduced myself as Rob.
That's just, I guess what? Sticks, I don't know.
People don't like two syllables. Well, now, you know, everybody
there, damn, uncle's going to like like pile on me and call me
Robbie from now on. So thanks, man.
I appreciate pleasure to man. Place to do it.
Well, shoot, brother. I'm excited to have him because,
you know, week before we started recording you and I are both
From the similar cloth, in the whole ketogenic and bodybuilding
realm. And, you know, I've talked about
how I got to that space in my Hill training, but I want to get
some back story on you, man. Like what led you to Quito
bodybuilding in the first place? Well, I try to make this short,
which I always promised that, and it always goes off the
rails. But I promise, I'll try really,
really hard. So, I grew up in the 90s
bodybuilding culture, and I started training with a
competitive bodybuilder, literally from day one.
I was like a One, a year old guy that didn't know where the hell
he was going in life, and I was working a shit, dead-end job.
And this little Jack, dude, named Melvin walks up to me and
he's like, you don't look like you belong here and I'm like,
well, you don't either and we hit it off immediately and like
five minutes into the conversation is like, you want
to go work out. I'm like, what the hell?
I hadn't really worked out much since high school.
So I dove into it and he proceeded to absolutely
annihilate. Me and destroy me and That went
on for days. And the thing about it was is I
absolutely fell in love with it right out of the gate.
I love the experiment of it, I love the challenge of it.
It gave me some sense of purpose and some clarity.
Give me something to focus on, and at that time, because I'm
working with this competitive bodybuilder, who grew, who grew
up in that, 80's 90's, hardcore culture, and I said, so what do
I got to do? You know, to really put on
sighs, what do I got to do to get big to be good at this and
he said, well, you have to train your ass.
Off until you're about to die and then you have to eat tons
and tons of food. You can't party anymore, then
you got to get lots and lots of sleep.
Expecting me to say, screw that. I immediately said I'm in.
I'm in the sounds great. So you know at that point back
in the 90s, there was no internet.
So we literally you know, I was rabid about the whole thing I
do. Right in 150% and started
training my ass off and absorbed everything, I possibly could on
the body building culture for Or me bodybuilding is the sport
that I love. Like like many people love
football or baseball or whatever.
I love the sport of bodybuilding.
I always have. So I dove right in.
But for me, I'm also very analytical.
I like to know how things work and it became the experiment of
seeing how far I could push the limits of my physique.
So, the cool thing was and, you know, all about this, genetics
plays, a big role in this, and I sort of stumbled onto by
accident the fat, I had really good genetics for this stuff and
so I went, I went from this 170 something pound guy.
And within a year, I was about 215, 218 pounds, and then within
two years, I was approaching like, 230 pounds and 4 in for
people who are wondering, yes, a drug-free.
But I literally was killing myself in the gym.
I was eating and I'm not exaggerating or kidding.
When I tell you back then I was eating eight to ten.
Thousand calories a day and I've got lots of stories to support
that but that's what I did. I did that for about a decade
and for me it was the experiment.
And and so I never really wanted to be on stage fact that that
was not my thing standing in front of 2,000 people in my
underwear isn't what sort of flipped my trigger.
I wanted to be on the back end of I wanted to work with other
people. I wanted to continue to push the
limits of my own physique and that's how I got into being a
trainer and a coach. And now I've been doing that for
Approaching literally, I can't believe it 30 years I've been
doing it about 27 years now and so that's what got me into the
whole bodybuilding scene and it just it went on from there.
Now fast-forward, that after about a decade of living that
life, being a coach being a trainer working in some really
big Jim's, I decided to take a little time off from that, so I
started doing just a little bit more general fitness stuff, lost
a little bit of weight leaned out, whatever.
But I noticed that I had a lot of joint distress.
A lot of inflammatory markers were high.
I felt like okay, I'm a fit guy, I'm a muscular guy.
Why do I feel like this? And that was probably in the
early 2000s about 2005 2006 and that's what I'd really jumped on
the ancestral Health bandwagon. And, you know, at that point, I
started to cut back on carbohydrate.
I looked at the inflammatory nature of foods, processed
foods, and all these things. And that's when I really started
to cut the car, Herbs a lot of the seed oils and the factory
Dairy and all these things but I want some more sort of like a
meat vegetable based diet. At that time, was probably a bit
more paleo if you had to put a tag on it, even though I hate
tags and that we did really, really well.
And then in about 2010, is when I read these, very obscure
articles about ketogenic diets. And of course at that time, it
was about the therapeutic style, ketogenic diets.
But also the odd thing was So, here's this former hardcore.
Bodybuilding guy learning about ketogenic diets.
From the endurance Community, I was reading about how Ultra
endurance Runners and cyclists were using ketogenic diets to
help them go longer and harder with less food and burning their
own stored fat for fuel and burning ketones, and just really
obsessed with that. It made so much sense to me.
So as I fast-forward again on denim, condensing a lot of stuff
and do a short short explanation.
Patient here. But then in Hazard start
approaching 40 years old, I got the bug started training hard
again. I really wanted to get hard back
in the gym and I decided, okay, bucket list time, I want to
compete. I want to get on stage, I didn't
do it when I was in my 20s. Now, I want to do it so and I
thought to myself, can I bridge the gap?
Can I sort of combine, ketogenic or ancestral.
Primal principles with nutrition with this hardcore.
For bodybuilding culture because you and I both know, you know,
back then I mean I'm older than you obviously.
But you know is chicken and rice steak and potatoes, high carb,
high protein, low fat. But when you start looking at
the physiology of it, it just made immediate sense to me not
to everybody else. Because everybody thought I was
a damn whack job but it made immediate sense to me is why
can't I reduce the carbohydrate replace you know that energy
source with dietary fat be a little Kinder and gentler on my
I'm still getting the adequate nutrition in the Attic calories.
I need keep the protein, very high to spare and add lean
tissue. And so I dove into that and just
kept tweaking it and playing with it.
And that's where my ketogenic bodybuilding protocol came
together. And I literally went through a
prep in 2014 and exactly as I just described.
And what I did is I sprinkled carbohydrate, you know, as you
know, sort of TKD a little bit of carbohydrate around my
workouts and then I would incorporate some refeeds one day
a week to sort of replenish and that worked phenomenally well.
So my first show I placed second in both the Masters 40-plus and
the heavyweight open and then, you know, as time went on and
I've been competing every year since then.
I just sort of kept tweaking this and developing it.
And you know I've never looked back and no it's not.
We say listen, this isn't your Aunt Betty's key.
Do you know, this isn't swapping keto cheesecake recipes and fat
bombs and putting butter in your coffee.
This is, you know, the subtraction of carbohydrates,
systematically, and using carbohydrate as a tool around a
higher protein, moderate fat approach, and I look at that as
an energy source, it's still energy balance.
So I try to take in the optimal amount of fat, whether I'm going
to gain phase or a cutting phase to supply, working energy and,
you know, no nutrient dense foods to my lifestyle while
still keeping the protein High despair muscle.
So, again, I've sort of taking these two worlds, these two
things that don't seem to go together like two magnets then
I've sort of joined them together but the cool thing is
and we can talk about this is I started a ketogenic bodybuilding
Facebook group, several years ago, I guess is about 3 years
ago, and I expected like nine people to Joy.
Literally, I thought, okay, there's probably like nine or
ten people out there doing this. Maybe we can get these people
together and we can, you know, share stories and talk training
and talk about how you're doing this and I'm doing this and it
just absolutely exploded beyond my wildest imagination.
And now we're, you know, sitting at 10,000 some odd members and
not only is it just 10,000 members but as 10,000 very
close-knit, very tight, rabidly loyal just This, it's like a
family and it's been such a blessing to me and then.
So it's just, it's just exploded for there.
And from there, that's kind of where we're at now.
And then, of course the coaching inquiries come in and now I'm
sitting at over 100 online clients from all over the world
and I've got my own private Gem and you know, so things couldn't
be better. Bringing these two unlikely
worlds, together to combine to something that has just been
very very enriching in my life and so many others.
I love it man. I feel like you know when you
take something that's not supposed to be and you make it
be like that gets me excited because like the the Nuance to
something that General society says can't be done.
Like when people tell me I can't do things.
I'm like, man that much more inclined to prove them wrong and
that's what happened with me when I started training with the
ketogenic that like everybody has working out with the gyms.
Like, you can't do it. You can't compete, you can't
build muscle. So I was bound and determined to
prove them all wrong and that kind of led me down my rabbit
hole. So, I'm right there with you,
man, I feel like doing things that Our society says, is not
feasible, is often where all the Innovation and progress comes
from. So I'm excited that I've been
here because I feel like with the fitness industry as a whole,
you know, a lot of the fitness industry is built on the
traditional, you know, bro, dieting approach to food or like
flexible dieting. If It Fits your Macros gained a
ton of popularity throughout all the 2000's, the 90s you
referring to the 90s, you know, that that was like such a sweet
spots for, you know, competitive bodybuilding not necessary from
a channel standpoint but just from like a bodybuilding and
fitness genre as a whole like when I when I first started
lifting probably in two thousand seven or eight I guess all of
the videos and you know, content that I was consuming around the
sport was all from the body butters of the 90s because like
their level of just discipline intensity and shape was in my
opinion. Unparalleled from anybody else
at that time, I'm assuming you probably on the same page.
I 100% agree and I sound like that.
I sound like that crotchety old man.
Like, get off my lawn. Looks like Clint Eastwood in
Gran Torino or something. When I talk about Nikes
bodybuilding and you know, there are some phenomenal competitors
now. And but back in the 90s, the
conditioning was so much better and I think it's because back
then the focus was literally on two main, you know, two main
things. It was super hard training.
You can never take your foot off the gas.
You know, I had these wonderful opportunities to trade in and
work with and speak to some Legends in the industry.
You know, I got to train with, you know, the legend, my
commencer. I got to work with legendary
coach. John Perillo, I ran a very large
Gold's Gym down in Florida where we had half a dozen magazine,
cover ifbb pros and there that I would hang out with and you
know, train with and talk to every single day.
And again back then you didn't pull up a webpage.
You didn't pull up an internet. For them, traveled, you would go
to the seminars, you would seek these people out.
I would be that crazy kid knocking on some doors saying,
you know, hey, I'm from two states away and I want to meet
you, I want to talk to you, can you give me ten minutes of your
time? And that's how we didn't back
then. And you go to the seminars and
you talk to these people and back.
Then, the pros didn't have Instagram Pages.
You know, they had the magazines that you get once a month or you
would go listen, Them talk at a seminar and that was your only
real connection with those people that back then.
So you tried to absorb every moment that you could to sort of
peace, all this stuff together and then you apply it to your
own training and your own physique and your own lifestyle.
So I think there was so much more incredible insane work,
ethic back then, and not to say that it's not happening.
Now, it definitely is because that's another thing is, I think
bodybuilding is making a comeback.
I don't know if you see that or not and where you're at, but I
Talk to judges, I talk to promoters and they're like, you
know, entry fees have doubled. The excitement is back.
It hasn't been like this since, you know, Ronnie Coleman was mr.
Olympia. And I think it truly is making a
comeback and I see it with my own clientele, the probably the
most proud moment for me or the most proud part of this.
For me, is of all, with all my clients, I'm not training, ifbb
Pros, I'm training, soccer moms, I'm training businessmen.
Women and just if I think aback at the last five or six people,
that I've prepped to go into a physique competition.
If I think the last five or six right up the top of my head,
four of those people are women over 50, mmm.
And who have never competed in their lives.
Who said, okay, this is a bucket list thing for me.
You've convinced me that I can do this.
And that's, that's part of our job.
You and I both know this were motivators but we're
influencers. We let people know that if
you're willing to keep died in this gym and you're willing to
crush your Macros and you're willing to do exactly what's
required of you. Then you two can do Hercule and
things and you can do things that you never thought were
imaginable than if you're very upfront.
And you're very forward with people.
And you are willing to walk through fire with these people.
And you do then they understand that, hey, you know, I trust
this guy, he's been there, you know, and my clients and The
women, I mean, just will blow your mind.
These women will eat freaking lightning and crap thunder all
day. They will push the point that
just will blow your mind. So, I love this little universe
that I'm living in working with these hardcore people.
Again, it's, you know, if you're if you don't train and you
sitting in a cubicle all day, you want to lose some weight.
Hell yeah, I would love to work with you and help you any way I
can. But I'm not gonna lie to you,
you know, my join with it. What I do is working with these
These people who want to walk into that, you know, hot gym
every day with Rusty, barbells and slap the iron on and put
their bodies through, whatever it takes and to be compliant
with their nutrition, no matter what it takes.
And when I tell them, listen, you have to track this, you have
to, you can't miss workouts, you have to sleep more, you have to
recover, you can't lose it up on the weekends.
You know, I tell my client. So you got to have a half a
bottle of wine every night too. With your life.
Now you don't need a trainer. You didn't 12-step program,
okay? You don't need me.
So if you're but if you're willing to walk through fire,
I'm willing to walk through it with you and these people just
get they change their whole demeanor changes.
And those are the kind of people that I want to be lockstep with
these are the people that I want to join with and help them
achieve these incredible goals. I mean, that's the most
rewarding thing on in the world. 100%, man.
I mean, I've got, you know, clients across the whole
spectrum and And, you know, I love them all.
I do right by them all, but there's definitely a special
place in my heart for all the competitors because, like, when
you, when you go through a prep, especially one, that is a very
lengthy prep of, like, you know, four to six months, which is
what I typically recommend, personally.
It's like that you could tell when they're in it all the way
and regardless of what they're placing is, but if they, you
know, never stray away from hitting the numbers.
Never stray away from the intense training session, and
just push it to the Limit every single damn day for six months
straight. Like they've earned this whole
nother dimension of respect for me because I've been there and
it's cool to see other people go there as well.
And then tap into this potential that they've never even realized
they had from within themselves. I mean, like that is just
unparalleled and they're just, we're living this day and age
where it's so easy to be soft. So you have to have the
self-imposed hardship, placed upon you in a competition prep,
that you go all in on is in my opinion, one of the best.
Best ways. I've personally experienced how
to bring on that self-imposed hardship and just figure out who
you really are. Then you know that that's
exactly right. You know exactly what I'm
talking about as funny as a funny story.
I was chatting with a couple of people and I just mentioned that
I was going to be on your podcast today.
They're like oh I know that guy and the first thing that comes
out of the month, he's competed. It's like Instant Respect.
Okay, I love that guy. He's competed.
I've seen the pictures. The guy walks the walk.
He talks the talk I'm like, yeah, this is going to be great.
So it's instant, you know, credibility, it's Instant
Respect because these people are walking through the process and
when they know somebody, who's who's reached the top of the
mountain, the respect is never going to go away and, you know,
it's a it's a constant back alley knife fight.
You know how hard it is? There's no off time.
Yeah, you're not playing in the local Rec basketball league
where you got to show up on Tuesday nights, it It is 24/7
every single day, every waking moment, and it's not so much the
things that you do. It's not necessarily just doing
the workouts to a very high intense level.
I'm a big high intensity guy. My clients know this, everybody
around me knows this if you're not in a on it, on the workout
floor in a puddle quivering questioning Your Existence.
You didn't go hard enough in my opinion and that's just the way
I trained myself. And that's what I expect for my
clients and I expect my clients to be Set with their macros to
be consistent with their nutrition to be consistent with
their sleep. Now, we talked about it's as
much as what you don't do, is, was you what you do do?
So, it's refraining from the party lifestyle refraining from
the, the binge eating, and, and calling a refeed, a refeed.
When it's really just a cheap bitch and you wind up, you know,
sitting in an alley somewhere with powdered sugar, all over
your shirt, cause you just knocked out three dozen donuts.
That's not what we're talking about here.
So it's a constant back alley, knife fight, And I tell my
clients, you need to be the freak in the room, wherever
you're at. And if, you know, my audience,
who's listening to this, or they're all nodding their head,
no matter what room you're in, wherever you're sitting, you got
to be the freak in the room. That doesn't mean just
aesthetically that just means attitude, that just means your
mental perception of what it takes every day to be the
absolute best that you can possibly be.
And once you understand that and you're willing to be the freak
in the room and you understand that what we're embarking God is
we're not just talking about getting in shape.
I you know, our our tagline for ketogenic bodybuilding is
Extreme physique. It's Tito for the extreme
physique culture make no mistake, we're a niche.
This is for people who want to take this to a whole nother
level and be something, they never thought they could be and
Crush through those boundaries and arrive somewhere, they never
thought they could be. And once you arrive, you know,
this is well as I do, you never Ever question, the pain that you
went through to get there, all that is behind you, it's only
what you've become and where you've been.
And you know, when you've stood on that stage under those hot
lights you know in your underwear in front of a couple
thousand people and your reach that Pinnacle.
It's a it makes you part of a very unique club and I'm not
saying you have to compete but I tell all my clients it could be
a competition or it could be a photo shoot or it could be six
months from now you're going. You go to your sister's wedding
and you want to be the most smoking-hot person there.
Whatever the case may be, the process is still the same and
we're going to get you there. Yeah, totally green, man, I'd be
curious to get your take on this.
So I feel like there's like with most things in life.
There's this dichotomy that exists between, you know, going
far enough going too far and not getting anywhere close.
And I feel like, you know, with all the Innovations and
scientific advancements that have been made in recent years,
especially around, you know, diet.
And exercise and the fitness Community as a whole.
There's like this this weird, you know, plethora of
information out there about how like the bio hacking Community
which I'm a huge fan of and a big part of but it's like
there's so many different there's so much attention placed
on, you know, the minimum viable dose to achieve a certain you
know, outcome or goal and that hasn't turned had this like
backfiring from a psychological perspective because it's like
people don't want to go to the extreme because They assume that
there's probably a smarter way to get there without near as
much heartache and physical ailment and I think you know
that that can be good to a certain degree for sure.
But I think with with something as as niche as like
bodybuilding, for instance like you're probably going to be
doing yourself more harm than good by not willingly going
there. Anyways.
I mean if you look at anything through our culture through our
history, reaching Victory, reaching the Pinnacle achieving,
the goal has never come from doing the minimum to get there.
I mean, you know, all through history, it's about conflict but
that doesn't have to mean hand-to-hand conflict.
That just means conflict with yourself conflict within your
own head conflict with fighting your own.
Own personal demons, nothing. Positive in terms of the
ultimate Victory comes from settling or finding that least
amount of resistance. It's always, you know, you got
to crush the, how can you possibly not succeed if you're
giving it everything, you have, hmm.
You don't want to leave anything behind you.
You don't want to leave anything to chance.
You never want to question yourself.
I mean, this this, you know, this it when you go through a
prep and you That peak week. I always tell people when you
get to peak week and for listeners who don't understand
what that is, that's that final week before your competition, if
you got to come up with a whole bunch of voodoo and bullshit,
good. Guess what?
You didn't come and shape. Yep.
You should be going for Peak we call, you should have to do
during peak week, is going to carb up a little bit
systematically. And I know how to do it.
I might cut a little bit of water, I get to such a couple
little tweaks. There's that little carb up
before the pump. Up up, if you come in shape, if
you're there, if you've done the work, if you've left nothing to
chance, if you've taken yourself to the farthest end of your
absolute ability, then you're going to sit there with your
feet up on the coffee table during peak week saying, bring
it bitches. I'm ready.
I'm ready to own the stage and walk up there and claim what's
mine? You never want to sit there and
question could I have done more? No I mean when you're talking
about all this biohacking bullshit that's just saying
what's the least path of resistance that I can take to?
Cheap, the skull screw that. What's the most?
I can put into this, to make sure that I've left nothing to
chance. That I'm going to walk up there
and claim and own this. And that doesn't mean a
first-place trophy, that just means knowing that I gave this
everything, I could possibly get it.
And that once again just to reiterate, that doesn't mean
necessarily stepping on stage that can do is just me.
Pushing yourself to be the absolute best, that you can
possibly be, that could be running a marathon, they could
be doing a triathlon, or it could be something like You
know, martial arts Jiu-Jitsu, whatever the case may be, or
just being your absolute best, on this certain day, in July, to
prove that you had the ability to push yourself further than
everyone else. And you left nothing to chance.
And when you do that, the, the calmness the, the level of Zen
that washes, over your body, when you know that this is, you
put everything into it is unparalleled.
Wouldn't you agree with that 100% verbatim at night?
May I couldn't have said it better myself like We time I've
gone into a peak week, like I've been just, I've been the most
calm I've ever been in the life during a peak week because I
know there's been no Stern Stone left unturned.
There's been no shortcut taken whatsoever.
So, regardless of the placing, you know, I'm gonna go in with
absolute utmost confidence because as you can attest to
like body building is a, it's not a sport in which, you know,
the end-all-be-all success. You know, measure is how you
place against other people. It's how you place against
yourself. I mean if You're doing
everything right and you're doing it to the Intensive.
Should you're likely going to place ahead of most of the
competitors or take that first place trophy?
But like for me, I go in trying to beat myself from what I was
the previous time I stepped on stage and every time I've gotten
better, and every time I've known that I haven't left,
anything left to chance, and that alone has given me the
confidence, and just the serenity, we're like peak week.
I'm just coasting through and enjoying the moment.
Actually, I couldn't have said that better myself.
I mean, that's, that's absolutely perfect.
I mean, I think a case in point in 2019, before all the covid
bullshit happened. I did an NPC National qualifier
and as we just discussed, I don't think.
Well, we always say, we could have done something a little
harder, but I'm not sure I really could have.
I think, I really pushed my genetic potential to the
farthest I've ever in my life, and I was fortunate enough.
To win the 50, plus Masters, but what really blew me away as I
won the open heavyweight, and this is all ages.
And that was probably the most gratifying experience of my
life. But in 2018, I did another show.
Another big NPC qualifier National qualifier.
And I placed second in the same two divisions and I pushed
myself to the Limit, I dieted my ass off, I suffered, I did
everything I could. But you know what?
What the guy next to me was just freaking better and sometimes
that just happens. If you feel like that, you took
your foot off the gas at any point during that prepped,
whether it be offseason, gain, phase, cut phase, whatever.
Then yeah you have to you have to understand.
I could have went harder own that shit and do better the next
time. But as you just said it's so
much a competition within yourself and if you know that
you put everything on the table and you gave it everything you
had, you know, I walked away with those.
Places proud happy. And I walked up to the guy that
beat my ass and I said, dude you are amazing.
God bless you, you know and I'll try harder next time and that's
the beauty of it to man. Like like with me you know in
the natural federation's that compete in a lot of the
competitors. Like we go to the same show like
we all know each other and like, before before the virus
canceled, the show that I had planned on doing in 2020.
We were all going To compete at the same event and I had all of
them on the podcast. We're all just kind of like
talking shit to one another but like in a very friendly manner,
but that's good because it pushes them to be better.
Pushes me to be better and it's like this friendly camaraderie
that you would see in the bodybuilding you know, of the
90s and prior to that because it's like everybody wants that
competitors to be the very best that they can be because it
inherently pushes you to be the best that you can be.
Absolutely 100%. Totally agree.
So you know competition is a great thing.
I love it and I will probably continue to do it as long as
God, blesses me to be able to train hard and do the things I
need to do and still take care of my family and be the husband
that I need to be in the father that I need to be.
And, hey, I'm a grandfather. So that's pretty cool.
So, you know, I can put my grandson on my lap and say, hey,
look what you're crazy. Freaking Papa.
Did you know that? That'll Own is worth the
suffering to me. Yeah, to lie to leave that
lesson and that Legacy to those underneath you and your
children, and your grandchildren.
And I mean, you know, it's a beautiful thing.
But again, it's not only just about, you know, competition,
you know, competition can just be life in general and, you
know, life kicks our asses. And if you ever question that
just look back at 2020, I mean, what better way to lift the fog.
Ugh of such a tumultuous and crazy year than to focus on, you
know, projecting the best human being that you can possibly be
and making that shift in making that change.
And, you know, it's all right in front of you, you just got to
take the steps. And the cool thing is as we both
discussed, once you go through that work and you go through
that effort, you will never regret.
You will never regret the path that got you there.
No matter how painful, no matter what you'll never look back and
regret that sort of like childbirth.
Looks like my wife's like, yeah, I had fun.
I pushed for kids out. It sucks, it hurt.
But I would never in my wildest dreams of a regret that because
I have four beautiful children. It's the same thing when you
push yourself to that degree of pain, you know?
And again, life life in our human existence has always been
about to some degree of suffering.
And it's only in our recent culture that we've all tried to
find the leaf least path of resistance.
And I think we all see the evidence S of that.
And it's taking us in a negative path and I think the
consequences of that have been dire.
Yeah, I completely agree, man. I mean it's I don't know, like I
like being able to exercise my stomach muscles, I like being
you know having a hardships and obstacles in front of because it
inherently makes me a better person and I feel like anybody
that has that mentality is going to be better for it even if they
have to go through a period of discomfort.
I mean that's that's what life is.
So you just got to Cowboy up and go for it.
Exactly. I think we are speaking the same
language on all fronts from everything.
I can tell this far. So I really want to kind of get
into some specific nuts and bolts to like dining protocols
and strategies and macro manipulations because I'm
curious to see how you personally manipulate macros and
in kind of go about it with a ketogenic approach because
there's so much there's so much Nuance to kill genic
bodybuilding. I've got a system that I feel
like I have not perfected because we can always get better
but I feel very confident. I feel like You and I probably
have a few differences of opinion on certain specific
strategy. So I kind of want to pull the
curtain back and see what see what you working with here, man.
So that said, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the whole, you
know, Cal versus hormone debate. Do calories really count.
Okay? Number one, let me be very, very
clear about this and I fight this in my ketogenic,
bodybuilding Facebook group, I fight this and all matters of so
So media, you know, that can be everybody's a badass behind
their computer. If what you're doing is working
for you. God bless you.
Let me just say that right out of the gate.
I don't want to get the thing about it is, is I follow, and
this is no secret. I'm a high-protein, moderate
fat, low carb guy. I am that works.
By far the best. For me, it is worked
spectacularly. Well, with my clientele and many
in my group, Would attest to that.
However, if you're more of a high fat moderate protein, low
carb diet, God bless you, if it's working for you, then by
all means, continue. I'm not a zealot.
I'm not some cult leader, I'm not any of these people.
I follow this simple rule when it comes to human beings.
I don't care who you are. What you do, what race you are.
What gender you are? Everybody is Beautiful to me.
I judge everyone under one criteria and one criteria only,
and that's whether or whether or not you're an asshole.
If you are not, then we can be friends.
I don't care if you put two sticks of butter and your coffee
and drink, you know, do shots of melted bacon, grease all
throughout the afternoon, if it's working for you, fantastic.
But if I happen to come forward and say, I tried that approach
and for me, combining And the old school, there's a couple of
things that I have adopted from my old school bodybuilding
approach that I have brought into the mix because I can tell
you without question, they have worked the best for me in
building my physique as well as the clients that I've tested but
you can talk about science, all you want.
But you and I both know that when you work with clientele day
in and day out, you get to know these people on a very personal
level. It is, the ultimate daily,
controlled experiment. It is a Research study in and of
itself kind of percent. So when I work with these
people, like I will say, you know many people have come to me
and said I started doing a ketogenic diet.
I lost 25 pounds right out of the gate, I'm just throwing out
some examples and now everything has stalled.
I in all nearly every case, tell this person after running some
numbers, let's bring your protein up a bit.
Let's back off on the fat a little bit.
We're going to keep your carbs very low and that seems to
always break the stall. My reasoning is, is I do believe
that it is about energy balance. First hormones, do definitely
play a role, but I do believe in the law of thermodynamics.
Nothing has made me change that yet.
Yet. So I do believe that you do like
if you're in a game face to put on bustle, you go into a caloric
Surplus and then when it's time to cut, you go into a caloric
deficit. I also firmly believe and this
is where a lot of people. This is where it starts to
become a back alley knife fight because the keto zealots come
after me with their claws out. When I say, I am not a big
intermittent faster. I'm not a big person on fasting
if that works for you. I think that's phenomenal.
If fasting Helps you achieve and maintain a caloric deficit to
lose weight. I say, go for it.
Do that all day long. God bless you.
But for me, trying to maintain as much lean mass as humanly
possible, when we're talking about protein synthesis and
nitrogen balance, I have found that I still find the old school
approach that meeting frequently throughout the day.
I eat every two to four hours, making sure that it's protein
heavy moderate fat, low carb has worked Phenomenal for me but
I've also found out is it has worked phenomenal for my
clients. The other thing I've noticed is
and you will understand this phrasing where others may not.
When I am ingesting, some protein and nutrients every two,
to four hours. I feel and I maintain and muscle
fullness a muscle pump, everything seems to click better
with me, but again, this is about enhancing the extreme
physique. This is not about cubic.
Sitting Sally trying to lose 20 pounds.
This is about the person who's trying to maximize lean tissue
growth to the ultimate degree. Maintain it I'm 52 years old
from. So for me now it's really about
maintaining and trying not to lose anything that I've worked
so hard to put on and I think the science supports the fact
that if you're trying to maintain lean tissue masks, the
two things that would support that support that over anything.
Is keeping protein high and training.
A hard in the gym because obviously you're going to lose
some lean mass in a cut. That's inevitable.
So you try to you know keep those losses as minimal as
possible so my ketogenic bodybuilding hybrid.
Okay, kids remember I use the word hybrid, I'm joining two
things together to create, something to fit a specific
goal. So, I do take in higher protein
and for me, and my clients that's anywhere from point. 82,
literally 1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight if
you're not morbidly obese. If somebody who's carrying a lot
of body fat than will convert that into a lean body mass, but
that's another conversation and then we use fat according to
your energy output. So essentially we're reducing
the carbohydrate. We're bringing good dietary fat
into support or modal function, nutrient density and to supply
energy to working muscles. So my Approach isn't, you know,
everybody kind of freaks out when they come into my group and
they're like, we have been doing the, I've been doing keto.
It's 75 percent protein, you know, you know, twenty percent
or 75 percent fat, 20% protein, whatever and like.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, it's not just a
blanket formula, you know, it's a little different for
everybody. We're all different, we all have
different goals, will have different needs.
So in the ketogenic bodybuilding, Old that I live in
that I coach in and 10,000 members would attest to this.
And many of my clients here in my gym, the higher protein,
moderate fat, lower carb approach works really, really.
Well, one more thing to add on top of that, and this is really
where people start throwing things at me, I also believe
that. Okay, don't everybody freaked
out. Take a breath carbs, are not the
enemy, they're not the devil, okay?
Now Now, I think that carbs in excess to be terribly bad, they
don't work well for me, and that's why I changed my entire
approach, all the way back in 2005.
However, if you have a toolbox full of tools, you've got your
duct tape. You've got your WD-40 and you've
got your crescent wrench that will handle most shit that
happens in your house. But every once in a while you
need to bring up that one number seven, star, bit wrench that
just works on the back plate to your you know why?
Heater. And if you don't have that damn
wrench, then the whole freaking your whole day is going to fall
apart. Well, carbohydrates are that
same way. So I will ingest a small amount
of carbohydrate around my workouts to fuel those workouts.
So if I take in 20 to 30 grams of a fast absorbing carbohydrate
like a cyclic dextrin or even something, more simple, like a
cream of rice with my workout intensity.
Those carbohydrates are gone by the time I do my last set so
it's just A tool that I pull out of my toolbox to fuel May
through intense training and then they're gone.
And then I go back to high protein, moderate fat, low carb.
And that I also advocate for most people, not everyone, some
people cannot tolerate them truly, but I also advocate
refeeds for certain athletes, and this could be 100 grams of
carbohydrates on a Sunday, or it could be 500 grams of
carbohydrates for a Robotically, genetically, gifted 230-pound
male body building and then they absorb those carbohydrates,
replenish that glycogen, and then they go back to normal
eating on Monday and everything. Just works great under the hood
so that, in essence, you know, if I just had to Broad Strokes
here. I mean, obviously, it's nuanced
depending on the individual. If I have 15 clients here,
everybody's numbers are going to be different.
Everybody's, you know this. But but that, that is Definitely
my Approach. And again, it is a hybrid and it
works phenomenally well for me and my clients, especially, I
can attest to the fact that those clients who have got on
stage. I've never had I'm a very proud
to say this but I've never had a client not placed top three that
I've coached ever. And we all do high protein,
moderate fat, low carb, according to that individuals,
unique energy output, you know? So does that answer your
question? Yeah, yeah, I love I'm smiling
right now. This is just Audio Only but I'm
smiling right now because you and I have a lot of
commonalities and how we view nutrition and we have a lot of
very Stark differences, but what's interesting is that I'm
hearing what you're saying and it's like, I totally respect it.
Totally appreciate it. Totally, you know, get behind
what you're saying. I'm a little different in some
of the specifics, but here we are having a very civil
conversation where it's like, there's probably people in your
camp that would throw shade on what I would.
What I would recommend is people in my camp that would throw
shade on what you just said. It's like people get so
defensive about these dietary protocols.
They have this very Zealot like approach to it, which to me is
just, you know, it's there's no good that comes from it.
So I like that you and I have, you know, very commonalities
towards certain things and very different takes on other things
because it allows us to just pick each other's brains and
grow from it and be able to have a intelligent civil conversation
together. So look like, you're not doing
anything wrong. I'm not doing anything wrong.
And the thing is that drives me crazy is we both Advocate
ketogenic style principles of eating, just because we differ
on some of the nuances doesn't mean we can't all get along.
We're the ones that should be uniting against the processed
food, crap. Big Pharma, all the things that
are just you know, decimating, you know Our culture through
shitty nutrition, poor advocacy. I mean, we should be uniting,
not being divided by G of freaking fat, I think it's
absolutely insane if, so, if a client of mine came to me and
told me that they've begun working with you because your
principal seem to be working better for them.
I would say, well, hell yeah, he's a great dude.
He knows what he's doing. I applaud that, you know,
everybody's different rent and I would go about my business
again. I'm not one of these zealots.
I'm not some freaking cultist, I don't understand that mentality.
I mean II do think that these people that just recklessly
sucked down fat with Reckless abandon have it wrong?
I think that they need to take a step back and take a look at a
few things. But apart from that, I mean,
it's just twisting the knobs and flipping the switches and
turning some We're here and we can all get along and whether
it's your approach or my approach, someone out there
could take yours take mine or meet somewhere in the middle and
you damn, well know they're going to make a very, very
positive change in their life, no matter which approach, they
take. Yeah, hundred percent man.
So to kind of dissect what we have going on here, just for the
listener second. I think there's gonna be some
really good nuggets that people, listen, this can get out of it
so you and I, you know, like I'm probably more of a high fat,
moderate protein. Very low to no carb.
Whereas you are more high protein, moderate fat, very low
to no car, but we're similar in that.
We're both very minimal carbohydrates.
So we got that going for us as far as the the energy balance,
think I think we're probably on the same page there.
I definitely like the high-fat from a hormone standpoint, I
like the high fat from an energy standpoint, but I am right there
with you, on saying that people that are just simply guzzling,
down, fat, without any, any you no attention whatsoever.
To energy balance, they're just shooting themselves in the foot.
So we're on the same page there. There's probably a lot more
commonality that we have than differences.
I don't do any of the targeted carbs or the cyclical carbs.
I keep it pretty strict keto throughout and I think by doing
a high fat moderate protein approach, that's probably more
conducive to not seeing any necessary gain from The High
car. However, I can see your approach
in, which its higher protein, less carbs, you can, you can
have More of a lever effect from the carbon Appalachian.
So there's there's sense in that too.
So I feel like we probably have a lot more common than people
would think. Oh, absolutely.
I totally agree with that again, with the carbohydrate
manipulation and I think manipulation is a fantastic
word. Believe me when I assess a
client's carbohydrate intake around workouts, I already have
a very good understanding of their level of intensity at the
chip and let me reiterate this and be very, very clear if For a
moment think that there would be any and you know this term if
there's any spillover from any carbohydrate ingestion around
workouts that I'm going to reduce it or eliminate it.
I also and again you know this as well as anybody, it depends
on the individual. I've got some women especially
if for some reason it's always women.
My men generally called tolerate carbohydrates, so much better
than women. But I have women that if I give
them M, let's talk about on a refeed.
Let's say, like, I could get, I have were five male clients that
I can give 500 grams of carbohydrates on a Sunday and
they'll walk into Monday, chiseled ripped, vascular, no
spillover. Look amazing.
And I have women that if I give them 40, damn G, it's a damn
train wreck. Everything just goes off the
rails. Now, what I have learned and
you've probably done this as well, is some of my metabolic
refeeds as I like to call it. Is it?
I will just do a caloric or even a fat receipt where if I have
them on a little bit. Like if I have them in a caloric
deficit, if they're on a cut. So I've got their fat grams a
little lower and then I'll bring them in on a refeed day.
I'll up the grams of fat raise their caloric ceiling a bit and
I find that that's enough to sort of get the metabolic
Machinery Back In Motion, get things working again.
Sort of shake off that stall and I know that if I give these
women carbohydrates once again, it just goes Goes off into the
weeds. So you have to assess every one
individually and I think I've kind of gotten known you know
I've had people come to me and say hey I heard you're the guy
that can kind of tweak my shit like okay.
I'm not sure what that means. But painting, I'll treat your
shit. All right, but no, but but let's
say so that's what I do. So instincts are very important
and when you doing been doing this as long as I have you
develop Your instincts were when you're looking at an individual.
And again you probably do this too.
But I have my clients submit photographs regularly.
Yeah. And you look at these
photographs and it's shocking when you have a good eye and
you've been doing this a long time, how something that I will
see? They don't even see the like,
okay, well that worked well but let's do this in two weeks, you
know, for the next photo shoot or let's do this.
So you tweak things and you keep manipulating because if I could
Drive home. One thing that this ideology is
that every human being is different than that.
One of us is the same. None of us have the same DNA.
We're all unique. So everybody needs something
slightly unique with their programming.
I did a lot of give a lot of people.
Same workouts. Obviously weights are different,
but when it comes to nutrition, let's let's shave off a few
grams here. Let's tweak this.
Let's raise that. Oh well, you know, I totally
screwed up on that carbs, don't work for you.
Let's try this. So that works phenomenal.
So we keep everything moving in the right direction and when you
see constant, you know, graphs of people's weight loss coming
down and down and down and they're keeping their lean mass
and retaining the lean mass, which is the goal.
Then you know, you're moving in the right direction because what
drives me crazy Did the scales, not drive, you nuts, the scales
drive you insane, like, like body weight, scales are food
skills, like body weight scales, like stepping on a scale that
drives me insane because it's about body composition.
Yeah, it's about retaining lean mass and removing body fat.
Like I will literally have clients say, well, you know I
look better in my clothes. My pictures look better.
I'm actually down a size but the scale hasn't moved.
So this obviously isn't working. Yeah, that dress Bloods.
That drives me nuts. The third grade math problem,
I'll say okay. Okay, listen pumpkin, if you put
on two pounds of lean tissue, you've made a spectacular change
in your body composition. If you lose two pounds of body
fat which believe it or not is very substantial amount of body
fat reduction. You're going to make a dramatic
change in your overall physical appearance and how your clothes
fit and how you feel, but the net result on that scale is
zero. Hmm.
So you want us, I tell people To burn their scale, take it to the
gun range. Smash it have a scaled
thrashing, party, whatever I make my clients submit
photographs and circumference measurements because I don't
give a crap about the scale because, you know, as well as I
do, it's about body composition. So what I'm looking at their
numbers and I'm tweaking things as well, how can we retain this
lean, beautiful sexy, gorgeous muscle and bring this body fat
down to reveal that muscle and to give this woman or this man?
The physique that they say, So long for and, you know, once you
convince them of that and clear that fog and make them
understand that then our job is so much easier.
Yeah, that totally agree. I'm definitely a fan of doing
consistent weigh-ins but also in the context of the pictures in
the measurements and the composition scans.
I mean, it is all about composition where I find the
benefit of the scale is if I'm tracking trend lines, I'm trying
to see, you know, what what manipulations result in more
water retention or something like that, you can see that and
pictures as well. But Like that.
I see a benefit in the scale but people that put their entire
measure of success waited in the scale weight alone.
That's just a very flawed perception.
Absolutely. And I get it as a metric of
success and that definitely works.
It's like the thing that so many people it's just it drives you
crazy how the people's perception even at today's
culture as intelligent as we are as incredible as technology has
become, you know, it's like I like I'm sitting here right now
and I weigh 230 pounds. Pounds and I'm probably sitting
somewhere around 10 or 11 percent body fat.
I could go find 25 men. My age that weigh 230 pounds,
line them up next to me and they're all going to look
completely different, you know how that works and it's still
230 pounds, but the body composition is completely
different. So it's such a people.
Just don't, they don't think about that.
They don't run that through their computers, not if I have
somebody who's You know, clinically obese.
Then I think the scale is very important because you have to
see those little victories. And if you are, you know, if
you're at a point where you're, you know, you know, 40% 50% body
fat then. Yeah, you want to see that
reduction in the scale because then, you know, the compliance
is where it needs to be from that individual.
But when you're talking about somebody who's, you know,
visible abdominals. And you know, they're trying to
tweak themselves video, absolute best, they can be there becomes
a point. Where the scale becomes very
arbitrary and now we have to start taking a harder.
Look at that visual appearance and those circumference
measurements and just putting an eye on these people.
And that's where it really starts to come together.
Totally, totally green. I want to get your take on macro
adherence because this is a really hot topic as well.
I feel like, you know, from an intuitive instinctive, eating
standpoint, you know, the the ketogenic low-carb diet is, is
perfect for Able to just kind of, you know, strip away all
the, the crazy fluctuations is going to get from a craving
standpoint due to the insulin release.
And if you're going to be intuitive and instinctive, you
can do so much more easily on a low-carb, be judging that.
However, from a body re comp standpoint, like if people are
really want to change the way they look lose a ton of body
fat, gain a ton of muscle mass, especially if to the extent of
like stepping on stage and being a competitive bodybuilder, I
feel like so much of it. Hinges on one's ability to be
disciplined and strict with macro adherence for a, you know,
defined period of time. So, I'm curious to see, you
know, like, when you're working with clients, you know, what
kind of window do you consider to be reasonable?
Like, if you prescribe them certain macros for a week, you
know what window outside of that range?
Do you think is realistic or reasonable?
That's a really, really good question.
I think we have to step outside of that.
Just one step And look at it as how can I put this?
Well, let me use an example. First of all, what you said
about adherence with the ketogenic diet is so critical.
And I'm glad you brought that up because we haven't covered it
yet. I think it's Paramount when I
was doing high carb, high protein, low fat, you know,
eating when I was doing the bodybuilding, back in the 90s,
it was so difficult when I I got to that point, where were you
start cutting to start getting to that point of working towards
being the leanest physique that you can?
And when you bring up the word suffering and diet, when you're
you, when your body's use, you know, to that roller coaster,
that glucose roller coaster. And then you all of a sudden
subtract that nutrient, and then it becomes just an absolute
sufferfest. One of the most beautiful things
about a ketogenic style approach, is that I it was just
floored me, is that I went to higher protein, moderate fat,
low carb. My level of satiety was so
incredible, it almost freaking me out.
It kind of scared the shit out of me because, you know, and I
do believe in gain phase cut things.
I believe, if you're trying to put on lean mass, you have to go
into a slight Surplus. And then if you're trying to
lose, you have to go into a deficit.
And then if you're trying to get to that point of extreme
physique, we're going to step up on stage.
You are you and I both know. No you and I both know it'll get
to that point where you have to go very very you know deep into
your deficit to get to where you want to be.
Yeah, the bizarre thing that I found and discovered back in
2015, when I prep for that first show was when I went down.
Even I was getting to the point where I was taken in like, you
know, 17 1800 calories. And this is for, you know,
220-pound guy. I still had a level of satiety
that blew me away. I mean, I Back in the 90s.
If I went down to 1800 calories, to try to get shredded, I would
be absolutely crying miserable like like yelling at people
beating people up wanting to sleep all day.
I hate my life screw you, you know, offending people.
And when I went to a ketogenic style diet and I flipped the
script from, you know, carbohydrate and fat and kind of
flip those nutrients. My level of satiety went through
the roof. So in terms of got dietary
adherence to, you know, that entire our protocol that
ideology has been invaluable in working with clientele to adhere
to the diet. Now, the downside is receipts
and I'll admit that and we talked about that you said
that's not necessarily your thing and I get it and it's not
always necessary. Re fades in my thing, I do
refuse but they're ketogenic colloquy feeds more so than the
Carberry feeds so they're similar but different.
Sure. So what I found is the only
downside is you have to be at a high level of adherence and
discipline because when you tell somebody, okay, Sunday, I want
you to have 250 grams of carbohydrate, and I want to want
you to drop your fat down to 30 grams.
And I want those carbohydrates to come from sweet potatoes,
cream of rice, you know, brown rice, you know, traditional
nutrient, dense, bodybuilding sort of carbohydrate nutrient
for lack of a better term. Nutrient dense.
What? We know how that is.
Yeah and then that certain you get that certain eventual that
has okay I've just had sweet potato that I had some rice with
my chicken at lunch and then I had you know, whatever potato
with dinner and then that potato turned into ice cream.
And then it was, you know, like like like, pinning, my daughter
against the wall and stealing her french fries and then like,
rating the house at three am looking for jars of Nutella.
Yeah and then you know, two days later you see the guy sitting in
an alley panhandling for carbs and sugar so you have to be very
aware of the individual that you're working with that.
They can have that mental discipline at that point in time
to adhere to that. So you know, you have to be
careful. It's a slippery slope and so I
know I got off track a little bit with your question, but it
brought up a sort of a greater point that I think what needed
to be said that the ketogenic. It principles have been
absolutely invaluable with that level of satiety, and that
dietary adherence. And the one thing I would say
is, you know, a lot of the ketogenic people out there
saying, you know, fat is the most satiating nutrient.
Well, the science suggests, otherwise, that protein is has a
little higher level of satiety and I would agree with that.
But I think, when you combine the two with the absence of
carbohydrate the level of dietary adherence, Becomes so
much easier than the old school carbohydrate approach.
Now we're I like to bring in the carbohydrates to touch on
another quick topic, is a lot of people in the ketogenic
Community, talk about insulin like it's this evil horrific
thing that you never want to get near where I would argue that if
you're trying to build lean mass and the most extreme muscular
physique that you can, you do want to have periods of insulin
secretion to maximize Has the ability to gain and maintain
lean muscle mass because it plays a role.
Does that make sense? Yeah, it does play room.
Totally. I mean it's weird that people
villainize insulin in the the ketogenic space may not
everyone. But I mean instance, a pretty
important hormone in our body. So it's not like we want to just
disbanded it completely. There's like, again, there's a
dichotomy to every single thing that we're talking about here.
Right. Right.
Absolutely. And the points you're making are
absolutely perfect. And I think they need to be
said, so any and you're right? We agree on so many things, but
we're not completely lockstep. And that's the beautiful thing
about this and I'm so glad that you're, you know, thousands and
thousands of listeners out there, hearing this.
To listen, guys, you don't have to be just I'm on this camp or
I'm on this Camp. There's something to be learned
from both. Now, once again, the, the crazy,
you know, butter chugging two sticks of butter in my coffee,
you know, in fast for the next nine days.
People, I can't get on board with that, but the absence of
carbohydrate and then, you know, the adherence to that nutrient,
dense, fat. And the high protein for the
maintaining, the maintenance of muscle tissue and the growth of
tissue Etc. I mean it makes perfect sense
and So many people don't understand how you can combine
the worlds of strength training and bodybuilding and that
extreme physique culture with ketogenic principles is beyond
me because it's just a simple look at some of the science
dictates that it the marriage really actually works perfectly
together. If you go back to the Golden Era
of bodybuilding like Vince gironda, the dude was eating
like three dozen eggs a day. You know, you talk about Arnold
Schwarzenegger Was like, if you asked him what his perfect meal
was the, dude always said, steak and eggs.
And again, for those people out there, I'm not.
I'm not one of these keto cheesecake cookie dough pizza,
Kita. I've always said, why don't one
of my tenants one of my Commandments is, is the first
thing that you do when going key do is start looking for keto
versions of the shit that got you into this mess in the first
place, you're screwing up. Okay, that's not going to work.
So, when I think of Carb ketogenic, Primal ancestral,
Health Nutrition, I'm thinking steak eggs, chicken fish,
salmon, avocados, healthy omega-3, oils nutrient-dense,
quality fat foods that are actually going to give you a net
positive results with not only the ability to build and
maintain muscle. But your overall hormonal
Health, longevity, Vitality, all of these things, it's not just
about, you know, figuring out how to Change the crust on your
damn pizza to adhere to some bullshit.
Ketogenic lifestyle that you read about Shape magazine, total
agreement. Totally totally agree.
Sorry for the language. But you know when Slimfast has a
keto freaking Shake, even don't you see through that shit
immediately. I mean, they're just trying to
sell you some more processed garbage and lend to your
inability to take your Anywhere it needs to be while they've had
their wallets. These people don't care about
your results. I don't care about your health
and fitness they sit in their boardroom talking about how they
can increase advertising dollars and Pad their damn wallets and
make their shareholders happy. They don't give two shits about
you losing weight on your health.
So you're going to talk to people like yourself, you got to
talk to people about like me and other fantastic people in our
community so we can band together and work together to
try to change the culture whether it's to be the step on
stage. Age that me this ripped amazing
freaking machine or just, you know, the local, you know, your
grandmother who needs to stay away or morbid obesity.
So you can hover around for another 20 years to give wisdom
to your grandchildren, kind of percent man.
I think, you know, it's strange because there's so much in
common with in the low-carb, keto Community, you know whether
it's higher protein, higher fat, I mean, it's all built on a very
Miller Foundation that I get so frustrated seeing all this, you
know, like Cutthroats disparity between the groups that are all
at the end of the day in the same subculture to begin with.
I mean, I wish they would all just sit down and have a
conversation band together and what they have in common and
recognized that where they have differences is oftentimes just
you know personal preference by own individuality something
probably be improved upon here and there but for the most part
we're all speaking the same language so banding together and
fighting The same fight is is key.
You know, Paramount of importance.
Are you doing? Good on time, I do have one more
question for you. Oh, I'm totally good on time.
I don't have a life. What are you talking about?
I'm going to gyp. Well, in that case, I'll bring
up two topics, the butter chugging thing.
You know, it's interesting because I feel like there's,
I've often been pegged as this high fat, low protein guy which
I've fought tooth and nail from from the beginning.
Because I've it, This is weird, you know, pendulum shift in the
keto space in which people have become fearful of protein for,
you know, the sake of it, decreasing their Beach be count
on a blood meter, which is a massive frustration for me.
I mean, protein is so incredibly important.
And yes, there is a period of time during the very latter part
of a prep. We all have my protein down,
very low relative to my fat intake, but I am all for
consuming a lot of protein that right now, for instance, I want
to building phase and I had 225 grams of protein.
Yes. So that's pretty high protein
for something that weighs 180 pounds.
While we're like brothers, then, you know, we're like brothers
than. That's, exactly right?
I mean, here's what I would say about that is you have I'll get
these people that come to me and talk about their taking a super
high amounts of fat but they tell me that their goal is to
drop body fat. So I told them okay,
thermodynamics is still up thing, energy balance is still a
thing hormones, do play a role and each macaron.
Trent differs from the other macronutrient, you know, we
have, you know, protein has a, you know, higher thermic effect.
You know, that that differs as well as well as carbohydrates
do. But my thing is this and it's
almost become a catch phrase within the people within my
group. And the people that work with me
and follow me, if you're number one, goal is the reduction of
body fat. That's your goal and your taking
in fat in the excess of what your body needs for energy.
Energy output to consume for energy output, which is the
purpose of it. You know why?
I always ask a question, I always say, give me an answer.
Would you rather burn the butter in your coffee?
Or would you rather burn the fat on your ass?
To this day. Nobody has said anything other
than ass fat. So, you know, if you take in fat
in excess of more than your body needs for, you know, output and
energy, then any unused fat, like any other, you know,
nutrient is going to store. Now the one slight exception to
that rule is protein protein has a job to do.
It doesn't necessarily want to convert to body fat of the three
macronutrients in terms of body fat, Version fat can convert to
body fat fairly easily. Carbohydrates can definitely
convert to body fat fairly easily.
That's why we have to watch the amount of fat that we take in
and use it for constructive purposes.
Whereas protein wants to break down into amino acids, it wants
to fuel and wants to repair and replenish the body wants to
build muscle. That's its goal.
It is like this little construction workers that slap
on their hard hats. It's closed up.
Their lunch pail stamp out their cigarettes, and they're ready to
get to work. Protein has a job to do of all
the three major macronutrients. The one that is the most least
likely to convert to body fat, who has the highest you know,
thermic effect of food is protein.
So that's why people like, you know, competitive bodybuilders
for as long as you and I can possibly remember go very, very
high on their protein and, you know, back in the 70s and 80s,
they would go moderate fat, and very, very low carb on their
preps. And then that kind of shifted a
little bit little bit in the 90s, but they were still very
cognizant and aware of the amount.
They were taken in, to make sure here's that word again, but it
doesn't spill over. You have to be aware of that.
But the one nutrient macronutrient that there's
little awareness, put toward in terms of storing, his body fat
is protein. So, and, you know, there's some
great. Listen, I'm the boots on the
ground. I'm like, the The guy out there
you know he's got blood stains on his fatigues, you know,
marching with my troops out on the bloody dirty Battlefield,
taking them to war. That's what I do.
There are other guys out there a lot more intelligent with me
that the lane Norton's of the world.
The Marty candles of the world that said Naamans of the world.
So many others that I could list that I've forgotten.
Even Dom D'Agostino that would tell you the same damn thing.
You know. It's not just about consuming
fat with the Reckless abandon, it's about being very
disciplined. Your fat intake to make sure
that you're getting the required amount that you need without it
spilling over. And then letting protein just do
its damn job. Okay.
And then people talk about oh gluconeogenesis gluconeogenesis.
Well we also know through the science that gluconeogenesis is
demand-driven, not supply driven so you don't have to be
terrified of it. Like so many people are, that's
another major misconception in the key to world that if you're
taking in all this protein, is just going to immediately
transform into glucose, you know.
Protein does not turn into gummy bears.
That's not what it does. Yeah but we've been led to us.
So once again, you know you're definitely on the same page.
I think I'm on the same page so we kind of find the nuances
between those macronutrients that work best for our level of
output and energy. Now, I'm a 230-pound guy.
I'm a big guy. I always have it out of 11 pound
baby with big-ass, broad shoulders at nearly killed.
My mom coming out, you know, and I put on weight, like I, I'm a
self. Listen, I'm not naive.
And I tell, every young guy that I meet good.
Please listen to me young kid. Please.
It's about genetics. It's about work, ethic, and you
have to kill yourself. Don't for a minute, think it's
about anything else so, you know, it's definitely your.
What is your stage? Wait, when I'm a lot lighter
than you. I come on stage at like one
between 157 and 165. Depending on what look I'm going
for. Okay.
So your between 115 165 and And the and 219 I was at 2:13, you
know, I was a heavyweight, we're two completely different
individuals, but the same thing remains.
We have to find the right. Nuance between those
macronutrients that work best for our level of output.
Our size, our genetics are body weight.
I mean, so many things come into it goes all the way back to.
What we started talking about. 45 minutes ago, every unique
individual has unique needs and you have to find out what those
needs are and Take them and turn the levers of twist the knobs
until you find the right formula.
That works for those individuals.
Totally, totally green. I want to I want to pull the
curtain back on something. You said here because I feel
like this is a point of contention.
Amongst a large part of my audience and likely large part
of your audience. I'm like, people say, you know
you don't want to eat a bunch of dietary fat.
If your primary goal is to lose body fat and I understand what
they're saying. I typically don't like that
Viewpoint because I've always He's viewed it to the sense of
like what I'm doing a prep. For instance, I'll have a very
high fat ratio and I'm cutting body fat, like crazy.
I'm taking a lot of dietary fat more dietary fat real to the
protein by a long shot, and I'll still be losing body fat.
So, if it was just that, that wouldn't necessarily apply to me
and I'm assuming that I'm not like a, you know, the one person
the world with that would apply to.
However this is where this is what we're going to.
Wow some people here so much of it hinges on metabolism.
So if somebody is Consuming like somebody's down regular their
Metabolism from chronic under eating and they're only
consuming 1000 calories that they're trying to can't maintain
a high fat ratio like 75 percent or greater, they're not going to
be consuming near enough protein to to be healthy.
Whereas if you get a very high functioning metabolic rate due
to having a period of a building phase like you when you were
talking about earlier you're going to have a lot more caloric
Runway from which to taper from going forward and you can
maintain a high fat ratio while still.
Zooming, totally adequate protein.
Like I don't want to be ever pegged as a low-protein guy.
I'm the adequate protein guy. There's periods.
I have high protein a or have low protein, but depending on
the goal that goes up and down my whole view, towards the high
fat percentage is that if my primary fuel source is coming
from dietary fat, and I'm consuming a lot of dietary fat,
my body's efficiency at using fat, as a fuel source is
heightened where that's dietary fat or stored body fat.
But all the while I'm consuming adequate protein.
So I think this would be a good You know, I want to just kind of
run with it for a second on the importance of having periods in
a surplus to ramp up metabolism because no matter what protocol
you're following. Whether it be high fat moderate
protein or high protein moderate fat.
If your metabolism is screwed at the onset, you're just shooting
yourself in the foot with a ton of caloric restriction.
Oh absolutely, I would 100% agree with that.
I have clients that I've have, well, I've got one client who's
fat is higher than their 18. But I've got a handful who are
equal very much equal and it works so well for them and they
are lighter leaner high metabolism, kind of guys.
And I would 100% agree with that.
I am. I am one of these people, you
know, I'm a bigger guy and I am a self-professed.
What's the term I always use? Well, I look at a weight.
I put on muscle, I've always been that way.
I'm a hyper responder with with that comes.
If I am not on my game, I put on fat quickly and easily, okay?
So I have to be very, very cognizant of that.
And I 100% agree with your premise and don't ever, I don't
want anybody to confuse the fact.
They think that I'm don't think my moderate fat take.
Don't confuse that for low fat by any stress because when I
first set somebody's intake, Oftentimes you know, fat has
nine calories per gram to proteins for.
So even though the G are considerably different, when you
look at the percentages, they often equal out, that make
sense. Yep, exactly.
So when I'm working with somebody, especially on a gain
fence for sure or even at maintenance support, when
working with somebody at maintenance, which I usually
start them out at maintenance and then grow them into a game
face. There's a term that I like to
use called growing into the diet when you put somebody at
Maintenance calories and you up their intensity and the gym and
you change your level of training and you manipulate
their macros, they will grow into that diet to wear those
initial macros that you set. Have to be altered or
manipulated because they've added some lean tissue and drop
some body fat so they sort of grow into the diet.
So, you know, you can look, if you look at some of these macros
on my app, like all of my clients, get this very, very
cool app that they use to track everything, you know, somebody
might be at, you know, No, 47 percent protein, and 46 percent
fat. That's that's not that's not low
fat, it's just but if you look at the G, if you're not educated
on this, you think oh, look how much lower the fat is in the
protein. Well, you know, elementary
school stuff here. Don't you don't forget, it's
nine calories per gram opposed to 4.
So I'll often start you out nearly equally in terms of
percentages. But if you look at the G,
there's a stark difference because of the calories per
gram. That seems to work very well,
then if I take somebody into a gain phase, there's even been
times for that. Percentage is in the is in the
greater column with the fat, just depends on what the human
being can tolerate, what their metabolism is you know all of
these things that you mentioned. So I would I would 100% agree
with that. Once again we've realized that
we're not very far off here. It's working with each
individual's unique needs to create the most you know the
greatest. Just body composition that we
can muscle is a premium. You lack of muscle is a bad
thing. Always 100 percent body fat is
bad. Always 100%.
You do need some. I'm not I'm not being ridiculous
here obviously, you know, I always tell my client, I was
clients and you know, them that get super, super lean, you get a
guy that gets sub 10 percent. You get a woman that gets like
sub 14%. And they love the way they look
and like I'm going to live this way you around.
No you're not because that's crazy and we need to think about
your health. So we bring them back up to a
desirable maintenance and bring them back to a healthy body fat
percentage and give them a diet break for God's sake.
And then we look at, you know, because of what I do with my
clients, I look at everything as a season and we take you through
again. We might be a take you through a
maintenance diet break. When we met I take you through a
cut will achieve a goal. We will reset read manipulate
and then we will start the process.
Again, I mean, that's just the way that I look at it.
That's just the way I'm wired and so far, my clientele loves
that approach. It's not for everybody.
Some people want to be think they want to be set on the same
macros. The same caloric ceiling and
live that way year-round. And if we do that and that works
for you, great, I'm all for that.
If the clients happy I'm happy. But, you know, as well as I do.
How many happy clients you have 12 months out of the year?
I mean come on I mean isn't it all literally on a weekly basis?
You can have somebody who's that eight pack abs looks amazing.
Vascular chiseled just just ridiculous and they're going to
find flawed because that's just the way our minds work.
You know if you're getting if you're coming to the end of a
prep, your two weeks out, everybody in the gym says, oh,
Robert you look absolutely stunning.
You're going to crush this. Nobody's close to you.
You look in the mirror, you see Napoleon Dynamite, that's just
the way our brains work. Okay.
We all see that, you know, we all see the flaws, we all have
clients that will send me a pic and say, I look fluffy, I look
fat. I look like absolute dog, shit.
I don't know what the hell's going on and they are chiseled
and ripped and amazing and muscular and vascular and just
just Exquisite. So I've got to talk him off.
The damn ledge explained to them in 13 paragraphs.
Why you're being too hard on yourself?
You look amazing and then hopefully they'll see the logic
behind my the way I'm talking to them but I'm getting I'm going
off into the weeds again. I do that.
Now I totally agree man. The grass always looks greener
on the other side especially like when you're in a certain
phase like when you're at the at the end of a cutting phase.
Like all you can think about is getting into your bulking phase
and as soon as you get in too much of a surplus and you're
like a little bit fluffier but you're hitting new PR.
You're like man, I can't wait to get into another cut.
It's like people never wanted fully embrace the phase.
They're in Exactly. They, they never want to pull a.
I mean, I went to I'm 15 weeks out from my first competition,
and then I go to Nationals a month after that.
So I've got a national qualifier on June the 19th, and that I've
got Masters Nationals in Pittsburgh, on, I believe it's
June the 23rd. So, when I made that shift
where, you know, I went through my best, what, I call gain
phase, I believe in my life, and I'm stunned.
I was able to do that at 52 years old, you know, how that
works muscle memory muscle maturity?
You know, it all builds up over the years.
So I was very, very pleased with what, the level I was able to
take my physique but then, you know, I got up to my greatest
body weight of all time without being fat because of a ketogenic
principles that I use back in the 90s.
If I got to 240 pounds, I'd have been a fatass.
Yep. Ketogenic principles that I've
used in adopted. I'm able to get to 240 pounds
and still Have lightly visible abdominals but holy crap, you
know, you've been there. So you know, then you make that
shift into, okay, I'm cutting. Now, I've done the math.
So now it's time to taper and make that transition.
And then when you make that transition every week basically
brings something slightly different slightly new as you do
the calculations bringing you into that first show, and what's
the first thing you start thinking?
I'm shrinking, I'm getting small, you know, even though
you're looking Better because you're chiseling away the body
fat. We're not filling out the shirts
like you did. You don't, you're not the big
guy in the gym anymore, like, all damn, I'm shrinking and I
gone too hard. If I go too fast, don't need to
slow it down. You know, do I need to eat a
potato? You know, you know, and you
start questioning everything. So you just kind of surround
yourself with good people. Have that second set of eyes.
That guy that I mentioned when we first started talking, but
seems like hours ago, still helps me to this.
Stay the guy that got me into training million.
Back into back in 1993, still walks into this gym today and on
Fridays and said, all right, take a shirt off.
Let's have a look at you. He's now an NPC judge nice and
he'll walk in and say all right, you know what I'm here and I'm
going to take my damn shirt off and I'll take my shirt off and
I'll walk through my mandatory poses.
And you'll say, you know, very very calmly, you're good.
I like this, that's looking good there.
You have more density in your back, your lat.
A little wider I like the striations in.
Yeah, I like the separation in your hams and quads things are
going well. Okay, we're going to do this.
He's basically my opposing coach because I suck at that.
So he's like okay so you're going to do these poses every
day for the next week you're going to hold each one for 30
seconds. And when you're not looking
like, you're a quivering fish about to die, they're going to
take that to 20 seconds and he holds me accountable to that and
he gives me that second pair of eyes.
So when I'm looking in the mirror and I see nothing but
shit, he looks at me and says Yeah, yeah.
You're coming along great. You're going to, you're going to
dominate this. You're doing awesome.
Don't change a damn thing. Don't screw this up.
Don't be stupid. Okay, thanks.
And then he leaves and that's all I needed to hear and then I
carry on carry on. So, yeah, that's huge.
Managed to Simply having some some additional accountability
and a second set of eyes, to kind of.
Give you give your put your mind at ease is so so important.
Oh, no doubt, man. No, doubt, you've been through
it. Well, shoot, man.
I could probably sit and talk to any of the three hours or so.
But Respect for your time. We got to do around to them and
because I feel like there's so many questions that still have
four. I love to get your take on some
things, we need to like get together in person and do like a
full-blown workout, and then record a podcast.
Yeah, we need to get together, train, record, that shit and
show those people out there. Hey, we may be a little off at
where the same damn, you know, or part of the same network were
part of the same club, we dominate the same space, and I
think that would be great for people to see.
I would love that. And I would be honored to be
back on your show at any time and hey I don't know if you knew
this or not but I've got a little podcast myself and I
would be absolutely honored if you'd be my guest so I could
pick your shit apart. Yeah man.
Come in 100%. Let's just get it on the books
and make it happen. I would love that, man.
I would love that and I really appreciate it.
It's phenomenal being on your show.
Well, I'd certainly appreciate having you on here.
Where can people go to? Listen to your podcast and find
more about you, man. It's the ketogenic bodybuilding
podcast. It's on all major platforms,
iTunes, Spotify, iHeartRadio Google all of it and everything
you need to know about me. Is that Rob good one.com our, OB
G OD wi n and that's got all my coaching on it.
It's got links to everything that I do if you're not a member
of the ketogenic bodybuilding, Facebook group do a quick search
on that the links are also on my website would love to have you
as a member. It's a great supportive group
and I just started Only because I'm old and I'm slow about these
things. There's now a ketogenic
bodybuilding Instagram page. It's just simply at ketogenic
bodybuilding on Instagram. Would love to have some of your
listeners come over. I'd love some of their feedback
and because I know we're all kind of like minded and I would
just be honored to sort of merge.
Our universe has 100% man. Well, I will certainly link out
to all of those sites and loved get on your podcast and we can
dive even deeper and I'll have you back on my show.
Will get a workout schedule, man.
I would love that man. Please stay in touch and I think
I sent you my number so give me a call and give me your number
and we'll connect and I would love to continue some of these
conversations. That sounds great to me man.
Take care of I would love that man.
Please stay in touch and I think I sent you my number so give me
a call and give me your number and we'll connect and I would
love to continue some of these conversations.
That sounds great to me man. Take care of