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Well, hello ladies and gents, 
Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com. 

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And today I'm actually a guest 
on somebody else's podcast. 

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So I was. 
Jonathan Griffiths is a great 

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guy. 
I've had him on my podcast in 

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the past. 
He is the man behind 

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compositionconsultant.com and 
Carnivore Muscle on social and I

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had him on my podcast several 
months back and I thoroughly 

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enjoyed the conversation. 
He asked a ton of great 

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questions or I asked him a ton 
of great questions and he had a 

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ton of great answers. 
And he recently had me on his 

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podcast to kind of go over my 
competition prep, kind of my 

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strategy and protocol around 
nutrition, training, sleep, 

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recovery, etcetera, etcetera. 
And I asked him if I'd be able 

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to just record that audio as 
well and publish it as another 

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stand alone podcast episode on 
my platform. 

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So that that is what we did. 
He graciously agreed to allow me

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to do that, and I figured it'd 
be a great way to point any of 

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my audience towards his platform
as well, because like I said, 

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he's an incredibly knowledgeable
individual and asked a ton of 

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great questions. 
So definitely check out his 

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podcast, his website, him as a 
person, and what he's doing in 

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the space. 
He's an accomplished bodybuilder

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in and of his own right, so 
definitely check that out. 

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But this podcast recording is 
him asking me questions on his 

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podcast, so hopefully you take 
something from it. 

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Hopefully I shed some light on 
some questions you may have had 

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regarding my prep and hope you 
enjoy. 

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Without further delay, let's 
roll the intro. 

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Hello guys, welcome back to my 
channel. 

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So today I'm here with Mr. 
Robert Sykes, excellent 

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ketogenic bodybuilder, an 
absolute pioneer in the field of

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ketogenic bodybuilding. 
He does have some overlap 

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actually, in terms of his belief
system, in terms of like the 

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carnivore diet, I'd say from my 
understanding he is pretty much 

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a carnivore if we're talking 
about macro nutrients and 

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grounds ratios and all that sort
of thing. 

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So it makes sense to me, and I'd
just like you to briefly outline

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yourself and kind of what you're
doing at the moment. 

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What brought you to the 
ketogenic slash carnivore 

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lifestyle? 
Yeah man. 

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Well thanks for having me. 
So I've been doing Keto 

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Carnivore for the last, I guess 
eight years now. 

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Coming up on 9. 
Not really sure exactly what the

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start date was, but I started 
doing natural bodybuilding back 

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in 2014. 
Was my first competition and at 

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that point I was following just 
a standard bro diet. 

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Lots of carbs, lots of protein, 
moderate fat and that worked 

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well. 
I built a lot of size, I started

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at 115 lbs. 
I was the scrawny guy, did not 

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have the genetics for mass by 
any means. 

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So I was following the 
philosophy of eat big to get 

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big. 
I was eating a ton of food all 

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from processed sub poor quality 
sources and bulked up to about 

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230 and on my 5 seven frame that
was not a good look. 

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Lost about 80 lbs for my first 
show in the course of 12 weeks. 

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Got shredded but suffered a lot 
of disordered eating tendencies 

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after that and that plagued me 
for several years. 

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And that's when I started diving
into just different ways of 

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eating and kind of stumbled upon
Keto by accident by following 

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John Kiefer's car back loading 
approach. 

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And then just noticed that I 
felt better without the carbs 

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entirely. 
So I started doing car back 

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loading minus the carbs, which 
lo and behold is pretty much 

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keto. 
And that was I guess some point 

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in 2000. 
Shoot, probably 14 or 15. 

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My first show was 2012, my bad, 
not 2014. 

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So I started doing Keto 
Carnivore 2014 fifteen and kind 

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of refined and polished it. 
Since then there wasn't a whole 

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lot of literature, studies or 
information at that point, so I 

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would just kind of trial and 
error figuring things out as I 

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went and just got deeper, deeper
into it. 

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Did my first prep with a 
ketogenic protocol in 2017. 

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I got my pro card there and then
have been competed ever since 

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following a ketogenic protocol. 
Just got done doing my 2023 

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season, got a pro card in a 
different federation and just 

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been rocking and rolling with a 
strict keto approach ever since 

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man. 
That's some cool stuff. 

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There's definitely some 
parallels between us. 

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The only difference is I fell 
off the diet a lot sooner than 

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you did and I gave in to, you 
know, the emotional eating and 

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binge eating tendencies a lot 
sooner. 

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So it's tough. 
There we have it. 

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And a lot of people like people 
like don't talk about that, but 

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like it's so prevalent in 
competitors. 

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I mean, honestly, I think more 
competitors have disorder eating

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tendencies than not. 
But very few people talk about 

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it. 
Very few people talk about 

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reverse dieting. 
Like those are the dark shadows 

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and the alleys of the sport that
just go unsaid. 

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But I think the more they're 
brought to light, the better. 

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Absolutely, yeah. 
One guy we both know is Colt 

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Milton. 
He had the exact same experience

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I did. 
So, you know, you spend all this

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time dieting, your carbs are at 
like 0, your fat's probably 

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pretty low anyway, Proteins 
wherever it's at, and you just 

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don't feel great. 
You don't know what to do When 

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you sort of come out these 
contest preps, You know, you 

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sort of feel quite good at the 
start of the diet because you're

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getting rid of a lot of the 
processed food and that sort of 

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thing. 
But it seems to be after the 

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prep, that's when you start to 
need to. 

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You need to really sort of make 
sure we get back on track sooner

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rather than later. 
So you don't, you know, spill 

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over and all this sort of stuff.
Yeah, it's, it's funny, man. 

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I mean, my last show this season
was in November 19th, I believe 

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was last show. 
So I'm five weeks into the 

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reverse diet now. 
And in a lot of ways, the 

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reverse diet is harder than the 
prep itself because there isn't 

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that date on the calendar, 
there's not that show date, 

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there's not that specific goal 
that you're striving to. 

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So it's very easy to allow 
yourself to, you know, justify 

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derailing and going off course, 
and a lot of people struggle 

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with that. 
I think it's certainly easier 

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mitigated with a ketogenic low 
carb approach because you have 

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less variables coming in from a 
blood glucose and insulin 

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response standpoint. 
You have less urges to Binge On 

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sugary, you know, sweet craved 
foods. 

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But it's still certainly 
difficult regardless of the diet

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you're following. 
Absolutely. 

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Makes perfect sense. 
You know, for some people it's 

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actually harder to stick to a 
diet. 

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It's got five or six different 
foods in it, but I find it so 

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much easier. 
You know, you're not going down 

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all those endless aisles in the 
supermarkets. 

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You know, the grocery stores are
thinking if I put this seasoning

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of this sauce and this low carb 
option is going to do this. 

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And you know, at the end of the 
day, it's just processed food. 

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We're just not eating most of 
it, really. 

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So it makes sense. 
Yeah, I feel like so much of the

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issue around the store eating 
stems from guilt. 

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And if you are eating foods that
you feel guilty about, that kind

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of it lends itself to binging 
and purging tendencies. 

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Whereas if you're eating food 
that at the end of the day you 

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can feel pretty good about, even
if you're eating it in excess, 

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it's still real food. 
Like your body knows how to 

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process it much better than it 
does. 

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You know, a bunch of Twinkies or
something of that nature. 

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And if there's less guilt 
associated with the food, 

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there's less likelihood of 
relapse to binge and purge on it

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again. 
That makes perfect sense. 

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Yeah, I understand you produced 
a product, a keto brick. 

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I know you've probably been 
making for a few years now and 

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you know it is a slightly 
processed fit. 

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But if you actually look at the 
ingredients profile off of it, 

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it's actually quite innocuous in
terms of the detriment to your 

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health. 
You know, you got a clean source

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of fat, clean source of protein,
There's not much added extra 

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stuff on it you don't need. 
So how did you come to that 

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idea? 
Was it just useful tool to add 

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into your offseason diet? 
How did that come about? 

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Yeah, honestly, man, it was 
never meant to be a product that

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I sold to the market. 
Like, I made that out of my own 

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self-interest during my 2017 
competition prep because I 

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wanted a way to hit the 
ketogenic macro targets I was 

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striving for, streamline my meal
prep, be shelf stable and just 

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take the guesswork out of it. 
So I was, you know, formulating 

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this brick. 
I made the brick. 

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I was documenting my prep on 
YouTube. 

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People kept asking about it. 
So I want to just make it into a

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product. 
So it's kind of made to scratch 

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my own itch so to speak. 
But yeah, I mean we we do all 

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the production in house. 
We have from day one. 

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We're not using a Co pack or 
outsourcing any of it. 

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So I have 100% oversight over 
the quality and integrity of the

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ingredients. 
We have, you know, grass 

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finished, grass finished, grass 
fed, grass finished whey protein

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concentrate and some of the 
flavours. 

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We do have a vegan protein blend
if people want to go that route.

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The main ingredient is raw 
organic cacao butter, which is 

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the greatest source of stearic 
acid. 

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So yeah, I definitely want to 
minimize the processing and just

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put food in the brick. 
That is in fact real food and it

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does great from a satiety 
signalling standpoint. 

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From a convenience and 
portability standpoint, it just 

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makes meal prep more 
streamlined. 

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Absolutely. 
This makes perfect sense. 

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Now understand, you've obviously
just finished up your Qantas 

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preparations about 5 weeks ago. 
I'd kind of like to dig back a 

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little bit deeper into that. 
So initially I know as a natural

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competitor, a lot of guys, they 
start competing and actually 

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start dieting much sooner than a
lot of enhanced guys. 

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So can you sort of take back to 
how many weeks back or months 

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back that wasn't what your 
initial diet was at that point? 

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Yeah, so I started the prep on 
April 3rd, I believe was my 

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official start date. 
It was 182 lbs and about 15% 

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body fat and I dieted for 33 
weeks was the prep time itself. 

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So pretty long prep started off 
with a higher fat ratio at about

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80% of my total calories coming 
from fat. 

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And the way my protocol works 
with regards to Prep nutrition 

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is I'll start off with the high 
fat ratio at about my 

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maintenance intake, and then 
every week I gradually taper my 

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dietary fat while simultaneously
increasing my protein till I'd 

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establish my unique protein 
threshold. 

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From there I start titrating 
protein and fat down and then 

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when my calories get pretty low 
at that point I'll start 

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introducing ketogenic caloric 
refeed. 

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So just a bolus of both fat and 
protein to kind of help with 

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metabolism, help make the diet 
more sustainable and kind of 

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structure around peaking and 
doing some trial peak weeks that

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brought me up into the weeks of 
the show. 

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My first show I believe was the 
first weekend in September and I

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forget what my stage weight was 
then I believe 159. 

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And then I just continued that 
down to that last show on 11:30 

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and then the whole while 
manipulating fat and protein. 

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But carbs stayed very low at 
about 20 grams total throughout 

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the day. 
The types of foods were 

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consistent throughout. 
Honestly, when I'm in prep 

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versus when I'm in a building 
phase, the types of foods don't 

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really change, adjust the 
quantities. 

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So I pretty much ate a keto 
brick every single day. 

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I had eggs pretty much every day
and some variation of ground 

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venison, lamb, bison or elk or 
beef and just kind of tweaked 

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the amounts based off of the 
macro targets, but that was 

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pretty much the the food types 
in in consumption. 

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Absolutely. 
Yeah, that doesn't make sense as

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well. 
I mean, when we're pretty much 

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eliminating a whole macro 
nutrient group, you know, being 

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carbohydrate for the most part, 
I can see why there's less to 

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worry about, less to think 
about. 

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So obviously we talk about you 
know the mass balance model, 

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macro nutrients, protein, fat 
that's that's the thing. 

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There is also the impact of 
insulin on fat storage. 

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And I know as well as you know 
if you're going to sort of go on

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a dye and add in say say added 
100 grams of carbohydrates that 

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are drastically throw off your 
body composition over a period 

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of time. 
Although we're physically 

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00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,320
active, that's what we're adding
in the fat, that's our energy 

228
00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,560
substrate. 
So could you like kind of 

229
00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:31,360
outline why you find like a 
ketogenic macronutrient profile 

230
00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,720
more beneficial for a training 
performance and perhaps any sort

231
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,680
of mood or satiety benefits? 
Yeah, I mean the the list is 

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00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:42,440
long on that one man. 
Like I I I feel blessed to have 

233
00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,840
done preps with a you know, 
higher carb approach 'cause I 

234
00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,840
have that to compare to, but the
satiety factor is is a major 

235
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,680
one. 
Like when I'm using fat as my 

236
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,280
primary fuel source, I've got my
own stored fat to tap into. 

237
00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,360
I've got my dietary fats tap 
into. 

238
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,360
So there is just a a greater 
reserve that my body can pull 

239
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,280
from. 
So simply from a satiety 

240
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,120
standpoint, I'm not fixated on 
eating every two or three hours 

241
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,080
as I would be if I was consuming
carbohydrates. 

242
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,600
So by not consuming as 
frequently, I'm not obsessing 

243
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,080
about food as often. 
So I'll often times transition 

244
00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,880
to an OMAD approach when my 
calories get even lower. 

245
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,280
And then from a sustainability 
standpoint, it's just it's one 

246
00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:23,600
and done. 
Like I don't my meals for the 

247
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:24,920
day, I've got it prepped and 
ready to go. 

248
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,360
I have that meal, I enjoy it, 
but I'm not fixated on food the 

249
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,640
rest of the day. 
So that from a psychological 

250
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,120
standpoint is key from a 
training and performance 

251
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,880
standpoint, you know the 
ketogenic diet, low carb 

252
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,960
carnivore diet, there's tons of 
research that indicates it's 

253
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,480
great from a muscle preservation
standpoint. 

254
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,440
You know ketones themselves are 
anti cannabolic. 

255
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:49,320
By having ample fat and protein 
in the system, I'm able to train

256
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,680
hard and train frequently 
without really risking any 

257
00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:55,640
significant muscle loss. 
And this was, you know, I I went

258
00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,520
to the whole prep documenting 
DEXA scans and body test caliper

259
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,080
measurement strength markers and
I didn't experience any dip in 

260
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,760
strength whatsoever until 
probably the last four weeks 

261
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,760
remaining of the prep, which 
that certainly wasn't the case 

262
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,320
for me in prior preps. 
I mean I was able to continue to

263
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,920
hit my top set PRS on all 
movements up until about four 

264
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,840
weeks until the conclusion of 
the prep. 

265
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:23,440
And I think that speaks to the 
volume of, you know, the 

266
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,560
ketogenic that being anti 
catabolic and honestly simply 

267
00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:29,520
being able to maintain 
relatively high calories. 

268
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,040
I mean for me my maintenance 
intake is about 3500 calories 

269
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,000
and I took my intake down to 
about 1600 or so, which is 

270
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,920
certainly pretty low. 
But I was competing against 

271
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,400
people backstage that were 
consuming 1500 calories and had 

272
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,640
40 lbs on me. 
They had to go much lower and 

273
00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:49,160
they experienced much more, much
more tissue loss than I did fat 

274
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:50,680
or muscle tissue loss than I 
did. 

275
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,320
So that was a huge factor there.
And then from like a, you know, 

276
00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,480
just overall health and 
well-being standpoint, like 

277
00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,840
since ketones can cross the 
blood brain barrier and provide 

278
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,240
an energy source to the brain, 
my cognitive function and just 

279
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,400
mental acuity was on point 
throughout the entirety of the 

280
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,080
prep. 
Like, I remember back before 

281
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,040
doing a ketogenic diet, I would 
just feel like a zombie there at

282
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,320
the last several weeks. 
Whereas the whole time with this

283
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:17,960
prep I was continuing to 
podcast. 

284
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,880
I was continuing to fulfill my 
roles as a father, husband, 

285
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,760
businessman. 
Like I never felt dull from a 

286
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,720
cognition standpoint. 
I was sharp the whole way 

287
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,520
through and I think that also 
points to the benefits of a 

288
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,600
ketogenic approach. 
Yeah, I could attest that as 

289
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,920
well myself recorded a podcast 
maybe a couple of months back 

290
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,040
and I was saying about, you 
know, if we're talking about 

291
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,280
calories, I was eating 3600 
calories at my lowest point, 

292
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,920
whereas before in the past I was
consuming 2800 on a carb focused

293
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,440
approach. 
You know, it's definitely said 

294
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,600
to be said for, you know, 
reducing the carbohydrates, 

295
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,720
reducing the insulin load and 
you actually mentioned an 

296
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,120
interesting point about 
transitioning more towards the 

297
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,560
OMAD one meal a day approach as 
you got further into your 

298
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:06,000
contest prep. 
As I was kind of wondering why 

299
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,040
you did that and I kind of 
understand obviously you need a 

300
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:13,360
certain instant response to 
encourage the kidneys to shuttle

301
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,760
electrolytes into storage mode, 
if that makes sense. 

302
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,480
So is that why you did it or is 
it just you preferred one and 

303
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,000
done out of the way, you know? 
The main thing for me was was 

304
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,120
psychological. 
Like for me from a 

305
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,280
sustainability standpoint, I 
would rather consume one large 

306
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,000
meal that actually satiates me 
and and leaves me feeling full 

307
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,080
and satisfied as opposed to 
multiple smaller meals that 

308
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,920
always leave me wanting more. 
So my main reasoning is is 

309
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,640
simply psychological. 
However, you know, you look at 

310
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,840
all the research about muscle 
protein synthesis having 

311
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,240
multiple spikes throughout the 
day. 

312
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,240
You know you're going to 
activate muscle protein 

313
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,880
synthesis with your training 
load, with your meal, with 

314
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:53,840
certain supplementation 
depending on what you're taking,

315
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,440
essentially amino acids, 
etcetera, etcetera. 

316
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,600
So I would typically train first
thing in the morning around 6:00

317
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,720
AM and never have my one and 
only meal, you know, 2-3 hours 

318
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,040
after that, four hours after 
that. 

319
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,280
So I'm still getting 2 spikes in
muscle protein synthesis, which 

320
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,280
is kind of agreed to be the 
minimum that you'd want in a 24 

321
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,280
hour evolving period. 
So then I think hedged against 

322
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,280
any significant muscle loss. 
Now, there could be an argument 

323
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,160
for me having a better 
activation of muscle protein 

324
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,480
synthesis if I was to break that
meal into two meals and just 

325
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:26,760
separate it a little bit 
further. 

326
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,720
But for me, the psychological 
benefit of actually feeling 

327
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,440
satisfied with that one larger 
meal outweighed that minuscule 

328
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,640
uptake in muscle protein 
synthesis. 

329
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,560
Yeah, I think a lot of it's 
overstated really, kind of in 

330
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,000
the carnival community where 
sort of saying to people, you 

331
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,600
know, the people that we kind of
listened to, Sean Baker, 

332
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,080
Chaffey, Professor Barker. 
You know, they sort of say, you 

333
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,640
know, eat a meal until you're no
longer hungry, then eat again 

334
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,680
when you're next hungry. 
You know, you're listening to 

335
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,080
your own body signals. 
So it doesn't make sense. 

336
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,640
And I think when you're having 
5-6 meals a day and then tiny 

337
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,160
little meals, you're never 
hitting that kind of satiety 

338
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,640
threshold. 
So that that doesn't make sense 

339
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,480
to me. 
And ultimately, I think the 

340
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,319
marginal benefit as protein 
synthesis is very, very minimal.

341
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:12,880
I I think anyway, a lot of 
people are now doing 2 meals per

342
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:14,480
day. 
I mean, can you, can you speak 

343
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,560
at all about what your clients 
are doing or people we've 

344
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,079
coached in the past like what 
what average are they doing 

345
00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:22,240
terms like meal frequency? 
So it just depends on kind of 

346
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,480
where they're at, Like if 
they're in a building phase and 

347
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,200
they're consuming a surplus of 
calories, then often times that 

348
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,560
will be uncomfortable to consume
all that in one sitting. 

349
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,000
So we'll break that into two or 
three meals a day, sometimes 

350
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,880
even 4 if they're in a pretty 
significant deficit. 

351
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,360
We may transition to that two 
meals or one meal a day 

352
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:41,400
approach. 
Honestly, lava just totally 

353
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,320
dependent upon the client basis 
and what they're wanting to 

354
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,320
achieve. 
But generally speaking, when 

355
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,640
their calories are in a pretty 
significant deficit, I find the 

356
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,040
most benefit by sticking to that
one meal approach. 

357
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,600
Because from a psychological 
standpoint, actually getting the

358
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,920
satiety signals that your body 
creates once you've consumed 

359
00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:04,320
ample calories in a sitting 
tends to have a more long 

360
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,520
lasting effect and just 
consuming, you know, five or six

361
00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:10,520
very small meals throughout the 
day that always leave you 

362
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,840
wanting more. 
So when you're that deep into a 

363
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,800
deficit and really kind of 
double down on just the 

364
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,040
sustainability factors of it, 
like what is going to make this 

365
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:20,040
deficit most sustainable for 
you? 

366
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,280
What types of foods? 
What types of meal frequency? 

367
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,360
What types of daily routine? 
Just going to allow you to 

368
00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:29,520
adhere to the rigid goals that 
we need to stick to for this 

369
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,640
finite period of time? 
Most attainable? 

370
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:34,720
Make sure that makes good sense.
Yeah. 

371
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:38,600
Now I know I understand your 
what I believe you're a 

372
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,520
proponent of like measuring 
ketones. 

373
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,880
What kind of benefit have you 
found that has given you and 

374
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,400
what kind of methodology would 
use? 

375
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,320
Is it a blood, urine, things 
like that or breath even? 

376
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:51,400
I'm not a huge proponent for it,
man. 

377
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,000
Like I'll I'll measure glucose 
and ketones if I'm just curious 

378
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,440
for some type of self 
experimentation or introducing a

379
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,880
new food or want to see how my 
body's responding to a certain 

380
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,000
set of things. 
But I mean, I could go the rest 

381
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,600
of my life and never prick my 
finger or measure glucose and 

382
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,960
ketones again, and I wouldn't 
lose a wink of sleep over like I

383
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:09,960
just I I eat pretty much the 
same thing. 

384
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,400
So I know, based off of how I'm 
feeling relatively, you know 

385
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,640
what what my glucose is, what my
ketones are. 

386
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,640
Plus, I've been adapting so 
long, like I don't have 

387
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,920
drastically high ketones. 
The majority of the time that my

388
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,520
body's become so efficient at 
using ketones as a fuel 

389
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,120
substrate, there's not much left
in my bloodstream to be, you 

390
00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:30,480
know, circulating and and 
measured because my body's so 

391
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,960
efficient at taking that into 
the cell and using it. 

392
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,000
Now, that said, if I'm doing 
like a a massive ketocaloric 

393
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,680
refeed, there's a bolus of 
dietary fat coming in relative 

394
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,520
to protein. 
I'll certainly see some high 

395
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:42,800
numbers. 
If I'm doing an extended 

396
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,600
fasting, I'll see some pretty 
profound glucose and ketone 

397
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,600
readings then. 
But I'm not really an advocate 

398
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,640
for just becoming a slave to 
measuring. 

399
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,520
These go so more off of how 
you're feeling. 

400
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,600
If you're if you're eating low 
carb ketogenic and you're not 

401
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,760
having those variables added in 
the 1st place, that even if 

402
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,000
you're not producing a ton of 
ketones as is measured by a 

403
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,400
ketone meter in your blood BHP 
meter, that doesn't mean you're 

404
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,920
not any you're not fat adapter 
using fat as the primary fuel 

405
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:11,960
source. 
So just being conscious of that 

406
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,160
is key. 
Yeah, I absolutely agree. 

407
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,400
I think it's one of those 
objective measures we can look 

408
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,440
at, but it doesn't necessarily 
mean much. 

409
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,200
You know, You know, I know a lot
of people say, oh, I feel great 

410
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,080
on the ketone level of, I don't 
know if the units are the same 

411
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,800
over there, but four or five, I 
feel horrendous with that. 

412
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,240
I feel anxious. 
I don't feel great. 

413
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,680
I feel my heart's pounding. 
I feel good when I have measured

414
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,840
them. 
I'm so between about 0.5 and 

415
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,000
one. 
That's just where I tend to feel

416
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,560
best at. 
So you know, it doesn't, you 

417
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,720
know, ultimately we're chasing a
goal, you know, body 

418
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,080
composition, goal, health 
outcome, A cognition kind of 

419
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:50,880
mindset, feeling as well-being, 
you know, so that could leave 

420
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,240
you anywhere between zero and 
five or six perhaps. 

421
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,960
So that makes perfect sense. 
Yeah, I honestly get more value 

422
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,360
out of testing glucose than I do
ketones because, I mean, since I

423
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:03,720
am consuming low carbohydrate 
indefinitely, like I'm not 

424
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,400
really getting, you know, much 
fluctuation in my ketone 

425
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,920
readings. 
But I'll see changes in my 

426
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,120
glucose readings based off of 
stress levels and that I find to

427
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:16,960
be pretty interesting as opposed
to the ketone readings. 

428
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,200
Yeah, I think it's certainly 
something to be said for like 

429
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,600
the psychosomatic effect on the 
body. 

430
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,680
I think it's often ignored. 
You know, you have a bad day, 

431
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,120
perhaps you don't sleep that 
well at night. 

432
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,760
That's going to impact your 
cortisol levels, your glucose 

433
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,280
levels in the morning. 
Sometimes I've been known to 

434
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,720
just skip a workout date just 
because I don't feel that great 

435
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,000
for the bit, you know, wound up 
about something. 

436
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,200
Just so I'm not going to give it
my all, regardless of what 

437
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,520
measurement I use. 
With blood glucose measurement, 

438
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,480
you know if your mind's not in 
it, you're not going to be able 

439
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,000
to give it your all. 
So I wanted to ask you as well 

440
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,160
about like it does, like macro 
nutrients, percentage ratios or 

441
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,720
have you any kind of measure in 
your news? 

442
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,160
What do you suggest to someone 
that wants to do a ketogenic 

443
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,160
bodybuilding approach? 
Or is there no real guideline? 

444
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,760
So again, it kind of depends on 
what, what phase of the journey 

445
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,840
and like I've got a seven part 
phase or 7 phases in my protocol

446
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,400
for guiding people through the 
prep and the reverse down 

447
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,120
itself. 
I'll typically start people at 

448
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,720
the higher fat ratio of around 
80% of total calories coming 

449
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,920
from fat. 
And then as I'm titrating their 

450
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,160
calories down, their protein up,
their fat down, you know that 

451
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,360
ratio continues to shift and it 
just depends on the clientele. 

452
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:28,240
But I'll often times see people 
hit that threshold when they're 

453
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,200
in males, they typically go a 
little bit lower on that fat 

454
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,360
ratio than the females due to 
changes in hormones, et cetera. 

455
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,160
But a good general baseline for 
the masses, Like if you were to 

456
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,080
look at it from like an 8020 
analysis standpoint, if people 

457
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,720
are targeting around a one to 
one ratio between fat and 

458
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,400
protein in grams, that's a 
pretty good baseline for most 

459
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,520
people at a maintenance or 
building phase. 

460
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,200
And then depending on how their 
body responds in the context of 

461
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,320
the deficit, we can titrate one 
up or down. 

462
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,800
But a good general thumb for the
masses is, hey, if you're 

463
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,880
targeting 1g of fat, 1g of 
protein with ample calories, 

464
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,720
that's a pretty good spot to be.
Yeah, I found exactly the same 

465
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,880
thing, funny enough, and quite a
few people now have as well. 

466
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,560
So there we have it from the 
master himself. 

467
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,720
You know, definitely one to one.
And perhaps if you're female, 

468
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,520
perhaps if you're having some 
hormonal shoes, you might go, 

469
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,120
you know, one protein to 1.11.2 
fat. 

470
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,080
Makes perfect sense also. 
Ultimately, we're looking at the

471
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,880
macro nutrient numbers. 
The ratio is just, it's just a 

472
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,280
number that happens to be 
because of the numbers of macro 

473
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,400
grams we're having. 
So my stuff, I wanted to switch 

474
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,520
conversation over a little bit 
towards like your training 

475
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,480
methodology and I understand a 
lot of natural competitors, 

476
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,000
they'll do a lot of, I'm not 
sure the best way to put it, 

477
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,560
like a power building approach. 
So heavy compound movements, 

478
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,200
intense efforts, usually ramp up
sets, warm up, stuff like that. 

479
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,040
So what does your current 
training look like in terms of 

480
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,920
maybe your exercise selection 
frequency, maybe reps and sets? 

481
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,520
It's funny man. 
I have trained my whole life 

482
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,840
following a traditional bro 
split. 

483
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,880
For all intents and purposes 
hate that term bro split, but 

484
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,640
everybody knows I'm talking 
about my saying you know body 

485
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,760
part split. 
And I got a question on one of 

486
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,680
my AM as ask me Anything 
episodes and it was about a full

487
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,160
body routine and I've always 
kind of frowned upon full body 

488
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,680
routines. 
I just had never really done 

489
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:25,840
them. 
I was kind of talking smack 

490
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,360
about them and it occurred to me
that I've never actually done a 

491
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:31,680
full body routine and gave it at
the time and attention that it 

492
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,000
was due. 
So I decided to try it and that 

493
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,520
was a few months prior to me 
commencing on this prep. 

494
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,520
And honestly, I fell in love 
with it. 

495
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,080
Like it worked out really well 
with my schedule. 

496
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,000
So I decided to just continue 
the full body routine throughout

497
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,640
the prep and that worked 
incredibly well as well. 

498
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,520
I mean, basically how I've 
structured the full body routine

499
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:57,240
is I'll train five days a week. 
Typically each muscle group will

500
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:02,640
get one dedicated exercise a day
and then, you know, I'll do that

501
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,080
the five days a week. 
So I'm targeting every single 

502
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,200
muscle group every single day. 
I train with one dedicated 

503
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:13,840
exercise, typically within the 
four to six set range and then 8

504
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,880
to 12 Rep range. 
Sometimes I'll go lower on the 

505
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:18,600
reps and heavier on the compound
movements. 

506
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,040
But yeah, basically every, every
muscle group getting trained 

507
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,840
every day that I train five days
a week, which is definitely 

508
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,680
higher from a training frequency
standpoint, which I think helped

509
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,880
preserve some of the lean tissue
as well. 

510
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,200
And it felt very enjoyable, like
it was not. 

511
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,880
I remember in the past I would, 
I would be in a deficit and it 

512
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,800
would be like a leg day or 
something, for instance. 

513
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,600
And man, going into the gym in a
depleted state and knowing that 

514
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,760
you've got six different 
exercises for legs is like, 

515
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,880
that's a brutal, that's a brutal
moment. 

516
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,720
But when you go into the gym and
you're like, OK, I've got, you 

517
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,440
know, four sets of one leg 
exercise, then I move on to 

518
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,440
shoulders or whatever, it was 
just a easier psychological hump

519
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,480
for me to climb as the calories 
got lower and lower. 

520
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,400
So it had a better 
sustainability factor in that 

521
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:09,640
regard. 
But I honestly think the 

522
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,360
frequency being higher benefited
my muscle preservation as well. 

523
00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:18,160
So I was a fan of it for sure. 
Nice one. 

524
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,400
Would you, would you say that 
same, you talk about the 

525
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,800
frequency being important for 
you to some muscle preservation.

526
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,760
Would you say it's still 
impactful to actually build 

527
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,320
muscle? 
So for example, would you still 

528
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,400
be doing four sets for, I don't 
know, a squat or a leg press for

529
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,280
example, Five sets per week in a
in an offseason mass building 

530
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:38,720
phase? 
I don't know. 

531
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,320
I haven't. 
I mean I started the full body 

532
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,560
just a few months prior to going
into the the cut, so I haven't 

533
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,640
really tested it out from a 
muscle building standpoint. 

534
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:51,720
What I'm probably going to do 
after my reverse to diet 

535
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,520
concludes is transition to 
something else. 

536
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,080
Like I've got a an 8 day heavy 
hypertrophy split that I've 

537
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,320
developed that I like quite a 
bit. 

538
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,200
I'll probably transition to that
for a period of time while in a 

539
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,520
surplus just to give my body a 
break from the frequency of the 

540
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,280
full body. 
But then after that concludes I 

541
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,800
may try to do the full body 
again in the context of a 

542
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,000
surplus and just see how that 
compares to that eight day 

543
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,080
rotational split. 
I think if all the boxes are 

544
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,200
checked, IE you know, ample 
calories coming in, ample 

545
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,040
protein, ample training 
stimulus, ample recovery, 

546
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,360
there's no reason why you 
couldn't build more link tissue 

547
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:29,800
with the full body. 
That said, I don't know if that 

548
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,360
would be optimal relative to 
something with a little bit less

549
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:34,720
frequency, a little bit more 
intensity. 

550
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:39,920
Yeah, I understand that. 
I've kind of dipped in and out 

551
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,760
of the frequency aspect of it 
myself. 

552
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,440
Like I, you know, I've tried all
these things. 

553
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,680
I've tried front, my body, back 
and body, upper, lower, full, 

554
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,360
body, row split, freeway split. 
I kind of default to a freeway 

555
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:52,720
split. 
It's like a push ball, legs kind

556
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,360
of pattern. 
I've noticed myself with my 

557
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:02,600
training intensity being near 
enough 95% plus to absolute 

558
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,320
muscular failure. 
I found I can't train 

559
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,800
back-to-back days. 
That's regardless of whether my 

560
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,880
intake's high or not in terms of
food. 

561
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,360
Now with that being said, so 
you're doing four sets is that 

562
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:18,600
you know free free warmups, then
a heavy set is just a gradual 

563
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,120
ramp up and is your your heavy 
top set for example. 

564
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,760
Is that to eccentric muscular 
failure? 

565
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,960
Yeah, so I'll typically do like 
a 1512108 Rep scheme. 

566
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,360
So like for instance dumbbell 
bench press. 

567
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:33,680
We'll use that as an example. 
I'll start off at a lighter 

568
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,680
weight, Do 15 reps, increase the
weight, Do 12 reps, increase 

569
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,160
again 10 reps That last set I am
struggling to get 8 reps. 

570
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,120
Sometimes I may only get 6 reps,
4 reps, whatever, but I'm going 

571
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,600
and hitting muscle failure at 
that point and I'll often times 

572
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,240
throw them in a drop set or I'll
do a forced negative forced Rep,

573
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,040
something of that nature to 
truly reach muscle failure from 

574
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,840
both an eccentric and concentric
you know, standpoint. 

575
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,560
So yeah, I'm definitely hitting 
muscle failure on that and it's 

576
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,560
weird man. 
Like even going to failure every

577
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,200
single day on most of my 
movements I don't really ever 

578
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,600
get sore and I think that is 
probably a result of me just 

579
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,400
training that way for so long. 
Maybe the fact that I've as fat 

580
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,120
adapted as I am. 
I'm not having near as much 

581
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,720
lactic acid build up by not 
having, you know, the 

582
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,800
carbohydrates and by having me 
having more MCT transporters 

583
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,280
throughout my body as being fat 
adapted as I am to help clear 

584
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:32,920
that lactate. 
There's a lot of variables at 

585
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,920
play here, but I'm able to train
to failure on most lifts most 

586
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,000
days, and I'm able to pretty 
much hit it hard the same or the

587
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,840
next day without any issues, 
which has been good. 

588
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,640
That's really cool. 
You must be some kind of 

589
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,720
Superman, because if I hit a 
hard set, like I record stuff, 

590
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,960
just like Europe at some, like, 
you know, Rep sets, I even count

591
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,320
my time as tension sort of 
thing. 

592
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,760
Rest periods are pretty much 
identical, you know. 

593
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,640
If I do a set to failure on any 
exercise, I can't do it again to

594
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:07,160
the same degree, the same 
schematic, or level until like 

595
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,120
four or five days after. 
Yeah, I I won't do the same 

596
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,400
movement the next day. 
Like for instance this morning I

597
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,600
did sumo deadlifts for lower 
body. 

598
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,640
I won't do sumo deadlifts again 
until next week, but I will do 

599
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,080
some leg movement tomorrow for 
sure. 

600
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,800
So I'm targeting the same muscle
every day, but I'm not doing the

601
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,400
exact same movement and I'm 
trying to have some time in 

602
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,440
between, Like I'm not going to 
do conventional deadlifts today 

603
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,080
after doing sumo deadlifts. 
So I'll try and pick movements 

604
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,200
then are targeting the same 
muscle but from a different 

605
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,760
angle, different point of 
leverage that it's not going to 

606
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,600
inhibit recovery of that prior 
day's training. 

607
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,520
And that makes sense, yes. 
There's there's an element of 

608
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,320
like water regulation in that, 
which is it sounds sensible 

609
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,360
because I was just picturing you
doing, you know, four sets to 

610
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,120
failure on a set to failure on a
deadlift like 5 * a week 

611
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,120
back-to-back days. 
I was like, yeah. 

612
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,640
No, no, no. 
No, no. 

613
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,200
That would be brutal indeed. 
Yeah, makes sense. 

614
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,120
Yeah. 
You brought up a really good 

615
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,360
point as well about being, you 
know, fat adapted for a long 

616
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,160
time now. 
You know, sort of. 

617
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,640
You said basically along lines 
of you've done it for such long 

618
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,480
time, probably your antioxidants
are in good range, your sleep's 

619
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,160
good, your recovery's good, your
body just fine-tuned like a 

620
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:25,000
machine at this point. 
Now this seemed like a strange 

621
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,480
question. 
So have you added in 

622
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,200
carbohydrates at any point, 
whether it be deliberate or not?

623
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,960
And did you notice any 
detrimental training from that 

624
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,040
point? 
I have not added in 

625
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,320
carbohydrates acutely with the 
intent of using those 

626
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,880
carbohydrates as a fuel source. 
So I had carbohydrates, you 

627
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,800
know, eight years ago as a 
primary fuel source before 

628
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,880
adopting keto. 
I'll have carbohydrates now in 

629
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,200
trace forms just as a nature of 
eating more food. 

630
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,440
But I won't consume anything 
that is predominantly 

631
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,680
carbohydrates with the intention
of using it as a fuel. 

632
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,360
So like I don't do targeted 
keto, I don't do cyclical keto. 

633
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,720
Any carbs that I consume now are
just simply a byproduct of the 

634
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,080
foods that I eat, containing 
some trace carbs, like eggs or 

635
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,000
raw oysters or liver heavy 
cream, things of that nature. 

636
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,560
But I'm not consuming any carbs 
with the intention of using that

637
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,960
as a fuel source. 
OK, yeah, that makes sense. 

638
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,560
I mean, I've tried it just 
myself for experimentation 

639
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,480
purposes. 
You know, Kevin's like, you 

640
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,440
know, if you don't have 
carbohydrates at all, you know 

641
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,000
you're not going to be able to 
form well in your top sets. 

642
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,800
You know that the idea that you 
have that need to get this high 

643
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,840
level of carbohydrate or glue 
for some reason, a few workouts 

644
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,520
I noticed a net negative, so I 
added in fruit and honey for 

645
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,200
three days. 
I felt horrendous, my guts were 

646
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,760
disturbed, I did not feel great 
and my train performance in 

647
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,280
every marker was was down. 
So my my weight wasn't as I 

648
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,760
wasn't as strong, my form wasn't
as good and I absolutely got 

649
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,400
more lactic acid from training. 
So I actually probably decreased

650
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,720
my performance of about estimate
between 10 to 15% on a LED cone 

651
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,480
leg essential movement that I 
tested after adding in the fruit

652
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,360
and honey. 
So yeah, I didn't see it 

653
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,000
benefit. 
There's there's been like this 

654
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,240
big push as of late to 
incorporate fruit and honey. 

655
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,800
You know certain prominent 
people in the space or advocates

656
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,200
for them. 
And I think like if you're not 

657
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,920
as deeply fat adapted, then you 
can most certainly see a benefit

658
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,120
from including those. 
Because you know, if your body 

659
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,000
is not as fat adapted, then it's
still going to be efficiently 

660
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,160
using glucose and it can tap 
into that and have it as a 

661
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,920
readily available fuel source. 
However, if you've been strict 

662
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,680
keto, as long as I have for 
instance, my body doesn't need 

663
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:35,880
that. 
It doesn't look for that. 

664
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,880
It's, it's upregulated all the 
metabolic pathways to be 

665
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,560
incredibly efficient using fat 
and protein as the primary fuel 

666
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,240
source. 
And it's like there's just no 

667
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,360
need. 
And I've seen so many people go 

668
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,840
that route and they kind of stay
in limit, limbo, purgatory land 

669
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,160
where they're not fully 
capitalizing on the benefits of 

670
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,760
fat metabolism, they're not 
fully capitalizing on the 

671
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,760
benefits of glucose metabolism. 
So I've always taken the 

672
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,280
approach of rather than trying 
to be the you know, to split 

673
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,080
yourself two different ways, 
just figure out which one you 

674
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,800
want to optimize for and double 
down on that and then don't 

675
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,600
second guess it. 
Yeah, I get that objection a 

676
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,120
lot. 
Like, oh, you know, I can't do 

677
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,120
it with that much fat intake. 
And I kind of say, what's wrong 

678
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,440
with your body that you can't 
eat something that you've been 

679
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,400
evolutionary designed and 
adapted to eat? 

680
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:28,679
Historically speaking, I'm like,
I don't think my last 100 years 

681
00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:32,000
of ancestry is, you know, 
completely gone, made my 

682
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,960
metabolic engine turn backwards 
sort of thing. 

683
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,199
It doesn't make sense, yeah. 
It doesn't make any sense to me 

684
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,679
either, man. 
Yeah, I think in some cases 

685
00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:42,040
they're trying to like patch up 
a broken body. 

686
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,800
So perhaps they've got some 
liver damage of some kind. 

687
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,760
They can't produce the bile 
acids to breakdown the fat. 

688
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,440
That could be a reason why 
they're, you know, using the the

689
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,480
carbs as like an add on, like an
addition. 

690
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:54,840
I think you said it very, very 
well. 

691
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,160
You know, you pick one fuel 
source and work on that. 

692
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,280
You know, if we combine carbs 
and fats, like I kind of said 

693
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,080
about the carbohydrates, the 
model, the the body won't run as

694
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,920
well, you know. 
We just need to pick one one way

695
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,000
for our body to activate its 
energetic system, you know? 

696
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,280
Yeah, and there's a lot of 
people that, you know, say, hey,

697
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,880
look, if you've got a lot of 
body fat to lose, then don't 

698
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,160
consume much dietary fat. 
But if someone is coming from a 

699
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,200
place of like a standard 
American diet where they've not 

700
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,160
been consuming much dietary fat 
relative to other macro 

701
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,520
nutrients, those metabolic 
pathways aren't functioning at 

702
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,200
high rates. 
So you almost have to, even if 

703
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,360
you have a lot of body fat to 
lose, I think there's a benefit 

704
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,720
to starting out with a 
relatively high dietary fat 

705
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:36,640
ratio so your body can 
preferentially build up those 

706
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,600
metabolic pathways. 
Then you can titrate that 

707
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,680
dietary fat and take down as 
needed. 

708
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,920
But like there's been this 
massive push for protein is key.

709
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,280
Which protein is incredibly 
important, don't get me wrong, 

710
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,320
but if you remove both fuel 
sources, like if you remove 

711
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,040
carbohydrates and fat entirely, 
then and your body's not yet 

712
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,440
efficient using your stored fat,
then you're not going to find 

713
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,280
the diet sustainable or thrive 
there in the beginning and 

714
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:02,960
you're likely to deviate right 
at the gates. 

715
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,520
Yeah, I understand a lot of 
people like that that come to 

716
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,040
comes. 
People like us, perhaps that 

717
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,120
bodybuilders have tried the high
carb thing to lose fat. 

718
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:12,240
They've not been that 
successful. 

719
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,920
My brother, right now, he's 
right in the other room. 

720
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,000
His version of the ketogenic 
diet is, you know, quite high 

721
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,160
protein, low carb and quite low 
fat, believe it or not. 

722
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,600
So like, yeah, no wonder why you
must have flat Cos you're, you 

723
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,960
know, if we're talking about 
calories, you're eighteen, 2500 

724
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,520
calories for four now you're 
eighteen 1600. 

725
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,080
So you've got a massive drop off
in terms you've got engine take,

726
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,800
you're not getting fat adapted 
and you're still training or 

727
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,240
trying to train just as hard and
you've had it in cardio. 

728
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:41,320
So it's like you're trying to 
you're kind of working backwards

729
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,360
against yourself there, I think.
Yeah, totally, man. 

730
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,040
I say all the time people, they 
want to transition to keto low 

731
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,880
carb carnivore, they'll try to 
take a high protein approach 

732
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,200
because that's what's popular 
right now. 

733
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,400
They'll remove the carbs, they 
remove the fat and they don't 

734
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,080
even connect the dots that 
they've literally just cut out 

735
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,560
half of their calorie intake. 
And you know, there's a whole 

736
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,440
lot of debate as to, you know, 
law, thermodynamics, how 

737
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,680
impactful calories are. 
Is it hormones? 

738
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,680
Is it calorie intake? 
And we can have a whole podcast 

739
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,360
on that conversation alone. 
But if you just simply look at 

740
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,440
calories as fuel, which it is, 
and you cut your fuel intake in 

741
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,320
half regardless of what the the 
macronutrient breakup or 

742
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,720
breakdown of that fuel is like, 
you are not going to perform 

743
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:25,320
optimally if you are consuming 
half the fuel in an acute period

744
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,320
of time. 
Yeah that makes sense. 

745
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,680
In terms of like the 
carbohydrate intake, if you're 

746
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:33,480
someone's to follow ketogenic 
style approach, what would you 

747
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,320
say would be like the cut off 
the individual or if you want to

748
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:39,320
might be damn sure like a 
surefire way to say you know 

749
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,280
you're, you know with enough fat
you're going to be in a 

750
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,640
ketogenic sort of state. 
What is that carb cut off like? 

751
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,000
I've had twenty 3050 grams for 
example. 

752
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:48,840
Yeah. 
So I mean everyone's going to be

753
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,080
a little bit different based off
of, you know, how much muscle 

754
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,360
they have, how insulin sensitive
they are. 

755
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,400
If someone's just starting for 
the first time they're coming 

756
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,400
from a standard American diet, 
then I would just say, hey, 

757
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,240
look, try and consume a total 
carb intake of, you know, 2030 

758
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:05,680
grams tops from all sources and 
then focus on your fat and 

759
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,080
protein. 
Then everything else should work

760
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,800
out. 
Now, I know people like myself 

761
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,160
included, I could probably 
consume upwards of 100 grams of 

762
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,240
carbohydrates throughout the 
course of a day and still stay 

763
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:16,880
in a ketotic state the entire 
time. 

764
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,040
I don't because I don't want 
those carbohydrates. 

765
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,680
I don't think it's optimal, but 
everyone's going to have their 

766
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,080
own unique carbohydrate 
threshold and carbohydrate 

767
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,160
ceiling. 
But if you're trying to optimize

768
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,320
for fat metabolism, rather than 
seeing what you can get away 

769
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,840
with, IE how much carb can you 
consume and still stain ketosis,

770
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,600
I would argue the better use of 
your time is to figure out what 

771
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,760
you can optimize for. 
And in general terms, what I've 

772
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,600
found is the lower that is, the 
better because then your body is

773
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,880
preferentially using the fat and
protein as opposed to additional

774
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,880
trace carbs coming in to kind of
deviate and distract from the 

775
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,560
equation. 
Yeah, that makes sense. 

776
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,720
That's a sensible approach and I
always tried to preach that to 

777
00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:59,600
people as well. 
You know, take it back as far as

778
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,000
you can and see what benefit you
can get. 

779
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,280
You know, a lot of people get 
initial benefits when they first

780
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,040
start this sort of diet and they
think or two weeks in, I'll feel

781
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,640
a bit better now, my digestion's
a bit better. 

782
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,920
You know, we should always try 
to up the ante. 

783
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,200
And as you know, coaches 
ourselves, we want the best for 

784
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,880
our clients. 
So we have an enormous ethical 

785
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,400
obligation to offer them the 
best suggestion. 

786
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,320
You know, the, the plan A is be 
as strict as possible, do this, 

787
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,400
do that, see what benefits you 
get. 

788
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,000
Because it might be that they 
just want to be a bit more LAX, 

789
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,640
then they notice the benefit, 
then they think, oh, actually 

790
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,120
I'm going to be a bit stricter 
now, so that doesn't make 

791
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,120
perfect sense. 
Just totally changing the 

792
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:38,160
thought process from hey, what 
can I get away with versus what 

793
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,800
can I optimize for. 
And if you do that like that 

794
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,720
kind of paints the picture as to
what you want to take the 

795
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:45,120
trajectory with in the 1st 
place. 

796
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,440
And when you're trying to 
optimize fat metabolism and and 

797
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,000
burning on fat and protein for 
fuel then then there's not 

798
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,280
really any need to try and 
include more and more 

799
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,160
carbohydrates. 
Absolutely. 

800
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,560
I wanted to ask you well about 
food choices. 

801
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,120
No. 
For a lot of people, beef is a 

802
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,920
good staple. 
For a lot of people around the 

803
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,760
world, it's quite accessible, 
quite cheap for the most part. 

804
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:13,680
If you're to pick say 5 top food
choices overall for the average 

805
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,440
population, what do you suggest 
them to eat? 

806
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,240
Yeah, I mean ruminants are going
to be able to up regulate the 

807
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:22,120
nutrition they eat better than a
monogastric animal. 

808
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,560
So we can go down the rabbit 
hole on like you know you are 

809
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,760
what you eat and based off of 
what they're eating that's going

810
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:29,840
to have some that's going to get
stored in their fats. 

811
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,120
So then maybe stored in what 
you're consuming, which then 

812
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:34,680
could have a negative impact on 
you. 

813
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,600
So a ruminant animal is likely 
going to have better nutrient 

814
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,160
density and be able to upcycle 
their nutrition. 

815
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:45,800
So going with something like 
venison, beef, lamb, something 

816
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,240
of that nature, a ruminant 
animal, ideally finding one that

817
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,640
is fed a quality diet as well is
going to be key. 

818
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,280
But like for me personally, I'll
have some variation of ground 

819
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,800
beef, ground venison, ground 
lamb or bison on pretty much 

820
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,320
daily basis. 
And then I'll have some of those

821
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,680
are leaner sources. 
Like venison is incredibly lean,

822
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,160
so I'll supplement with fat 
sources like fajito brick for 

823
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,520
one with a stearic acid in it. 
Beef tallow, duck fat, quality 

824
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,040
butter, something of that 
nature. 

825
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,200
But I'll just good quality 
animal based sources for the 

826
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,480
most part. 
I don't really consume much 

827
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,320
vegetation every once in a 
while. 

828
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,400
I have some greens but I am not 
consuming a high percentage of 

829
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,560
my calories from vegetation, so 
pretty much just sticking with 

830
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,240
the quality fats, proteins man. 
Yeah, that makes sense to me as 

831
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:34,840
well. 
And contrast to that. 

832
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,320
I've got a question related to 
training, which is I should have

833
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,000
asked earlier, believe or not, 
but it will. 

834
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:41,600
It will do the viewers just fine
I think. 

835
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,760
So if you're to pick say 5 
exercises that you had to do or 

836
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,200
want to do in the gym and that 
was all you could do for some 

837
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,360
reason, what would they be? 
So you can't go wrong with just 

838
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,080
the basics, man, I like the 
basics. 

839
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,680
If I could pick five, I don't 
probably just stick with like 

840
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:01,240
the compound movement. 
So I have a squat, A deadlift, a

841
00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:09,000
sumo deadlift, probably like a a
row, and then either like a 

842
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,040
chest press or a shoulder press 
variation. 

843
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,320
So that'd be 5 right there, five
or six, And they all can be done

844
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,840
with a basic barbell or 
dumbbells. 

845
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,000
I mean, super simple. 
Like, I've been training in my 

846
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,880
own gym for the past five years 
now, exclusively, except for 

847
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,120
when I'm traveling. 
And I've got just the basic 

848
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:30,400
equipment. 
Like, you don't have to 

849
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,160
overthink the training, you 
don't have to have all the fancy

850
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,880
bells and whistles, and my body 
seems to be pretty well 

851
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,360
symmetrical in proportion using 
just those basic movements. 

852
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,280
So definitely don't need to 
overthink it. 

853
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,680
Nice one. 
Yeah, I had a question about, 

854
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,960
well, obviously I understand you
got very lean in your last 

855
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,480
contest. 
Now for someone that hasn't done

856
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,600
that before, they might not 
understand how difficult it is 

857
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,200
on the body. 
Is there any sort of peculiar 

858
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,560
things or quirks that you notice
when you got that lean? 

859
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,840
So obviously you're walking 
around with like striated glutes

860
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,760
and hamstrings popping 
everywhere. 

861
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,400
Like, was sitting down painful? 
Did your feet hurt? 

862
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,320
You know? 
No, sitting down was never 

863
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,360
painful. 
My feet didn't hurt, but I was. 

864
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,760
I mean I still am, man. 
I mean I'm pretty much I could 

865
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,000
step on stage right now. 
I've got the same competition 

866
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,920
waiting for the most part. 
But yeah, I was sub 4% body fan.

867
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:25,800
And when you get down to when 
you get down to like sub 6% body

868
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,720
fat, weird things start 
happening. 

869
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:30,040
Like my testosterone definitely 
did take a drop. 

870
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:33,440
Testosterone's going to be very 
highly impacted by total caloric

871
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,840
intake and body fat percentage. 
So once I got down to the low 

872
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,520
single digits, you know, my 
testosterone really started 

873
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,320
tanking. 
I felt incredibly great 

874
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,200
considering how low my 
testosterone got. 

875
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,880
So I thought that was 
interesting, but certainly not 

876
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,200
optimal from a health 
standpoint. 

877
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,760
But when you're that depleted, 
like your hair stops growing, 

878
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,960
your fingernails stop growing, 
you stop producing as much waste

879
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,480
because your body is using it 
all. 

880
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,000
So your bathroom visits are less
significant. 

881
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,160
But yeah, you just have, like 
you get light headed a little 

882
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,080
bit more easily, especially if 
you haven't quite gotten your 

883
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:08,880
electrolytes and fluid intake 
dialed in. 

884
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,560
There's just like your sleep 
starts to get shifted. 

885
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:17,440
I mean your your body is in a a 
sympathetic state much more 

886
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:22,000
often than not, so it's harder 
to stay asleep longer and 

887
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,640
there's certain ways to hedge 
against that. 

888
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,120
But I mean when you are that 
depleted, your body is 

889
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,680
definitely in go mode and it is 
trying to find the next kill to 

890
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,360
fuel itself. 
So you have to have the mental 

891
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:36,520
fortitude to not indulge in the 
the tendency to overeat as your 

892
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,360
body wants you to, because what 
you're trying to accomplish is 

893
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,560
very far removed from what is 
found in nature. 

894
00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:46,840
But that's probably the way I 
didn't see many 4% body fat 

895
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,440
troglomides running around in 
Paleolithic times either. 

896
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:52,960
For sure, yeah. 
I think the average person wants

897
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:54,240
to be comfortable with their 
body. 

898
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,840
I give most men a range of about
10 to 20% body fat, and that's 

899
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,640
probably quite healthy for the 
most part the average person. 

900
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,680
Some people maintain a leaner 
body than that, perhaps their 

901
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,920
fitness model, which case go for
it, but I don't. 

902
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,880
I don't see many blood panels 
with optimized testosterone, 

903
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,800
subtemps and body fat. 
Personally, yeah, this is 

904
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,280
probably a good segue towards 
talking about the recovery side 

905
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,880
of it. 
And I just mentioned like your 

906
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,320
sleep is trash. 
You don't feel great when you're

907
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,400
sleeping. 
Was there any real benefit you 

908
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,320
found from adding in any 
different supplements at all? 

909
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,200
Tubby sleep, you know, or any 
herbal extracts, anything like 

910
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,440
that? 
Sorry, my camera just died so we

911
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:35,480
switched over to the webcam 
here. 

912
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,960
As far as supplements and sleep 
goes, honestly man, I kept the 

913
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,440
supplementation super basic. 
All I really supplement with was

914
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,520
electrolytes, potassium, sodium,
magnesium. 

915
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,800
I had like an organ blend 
supplement that I would use, but

916
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:52,840
who knows whether it was 
actually effective or not. 

917
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,760
I would do a creatine 
monohydrate and that's pretty 

918
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,760
much the extent of my 
supplementation. 

919
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,960
As far as sleep hygiene and 
protocol, I was definitely 

920
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,760
trying to optimize that. 
My sleep quantity was minuscule,

921
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,920
like there were several days 
where I was getting you know, 4 

922
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,000
hours of sleep is pretty much 
the average. 

923
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,240
So I really tried to focus on 
sleep quality and some things I 

924
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:19,280
would do to ensure that was I 
actually stopped sleeping in the

925
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,920
same bed as my wife, which some 
people may have a hard time 

926
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,520
doing, but by not having 
somebody else moving in the bed,

927
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,120
we have a year and a half old 
son too, so like she would go 

928
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,120
get him at night and that would,
you know, disturb my sleep. 

929
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,120
So I just started sleeping in 
the guest bedroom as the 

930
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,240
calories got lower. 
That helped. 

931
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:39,320
I would have, you know, the the 
temperature downturn down to 

932
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,160
help with a thermal regulation 
standpoint. 

933
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:45,840
I would I would have like, I 
would mouth tape. 

934
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:50,320
I would, I would put in black 
blackout curtains or like a 

935
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,280
sleep cover over my eyes. 
Try to really just dial that 

936
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,320
component in so that when I hit 
the pillow I was out, and then I

937
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,520
pretty much stayed out until it 
was time to wake up again. 

938
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,000
So I I feel like I got that 
dialed in, I just simply didn't 

939
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,160
get enough total sleep. 
So as the calories get higher, 

940
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,320
and as I'm able to kind of 
return to some degree of 

941
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,680
parasympathetic state, I should 
see those markers improve. 

942
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,720
Yeah, for sure. 
And now someone who's tried the 

943
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:18,320
enhanced St. and the natural 
bodybuilding route, I can say 

944
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,600
they're both hard. 
So I expect anyone that does 

945
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,680
either one of those ultimately 
being 4% body fatal low is 

946
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,160
really difficult and everyone 
struggles asleep and there's 

947
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,320
only so much you can do in terms
of like supplements and like bio

948
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,640
hacks. 
So it is a tough challenge. 

949
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,280
I wouldn't recommend anyone 
actually just try to body build.

950
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,040
You'll be fighting against 
yourself and as Robert said 

951
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,080
earlier, it's it's a tough task,
you know, it's not a natural 

952
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:42,880
thing for your body to do. 
You have to have the mental 

953
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,320
fortitude of a a bloody ox to do
it right. 

954
00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:48,120
So I applaud you there on that. 
Yeah, thanks man. 

955
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,720
I definitely feel like, you 
know, it's a mental sport more 

956
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:52,720
so than a physical one. 
Like when you start getting 

957
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,360
deep, deep, deep into a cut and 
your body is changing, your mind

958
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,400
is changing, you're you're in 
this deficit. 

959
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,880
Like you really just have to 
zero in on what matters and what

960
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,600
the priorities are. 
And I always come out of a prep 

961
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,480
better for it, Like it. 
What I experience in the growth 

962
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,840
of my mental state far outweighs
that of the transformation from 

963
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:18,120
a physical standpoint, but just 
simply forcing my body and my 

964
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,720
mind to go through a period of 
time of sacrifice. 

965
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,160
And you know, going without, 
it's something that very few 

966
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,600
people experience because we 
live in an area of abundance 

967
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:30,920
where everything comes and 
people can just easily get what 

968
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,800
they want, conveniently. 
So foregoing those comforts and 

969
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,320
just simply pushing yourself 
beyond what you've ever thought 

970
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,480
possible is so incredibly 
rewarding and it just spills 

971
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,040
over into other areas of your 
life outside the prep and 

972
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:47,960
everything benefits. 
So I'm a huge, huge advocate for

973
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,600
the sport if done healthfully 
and done sustainable, Like you 

974
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,520
don't want to do that every 
single year. 

975
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,880
But if you transition into a 
cutting phase and you go that 

976
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,160
deep with it, you know, 
intermittently throughout your 

977
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:00,920
life, I think there's much to be
gained from it. 

978
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,280
Absolutely. 
Now as you're sort of on the the

979
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,160
outer side of your Qantas, 
perhaps, you're probably looking

980
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,080
back at this point, are you now 
looking forward to thinking, OK,

981
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,000
2025, I'm going to compete 
again? 

982
00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:18,400
And are there any sort of 
landmarks, milestones or 

983
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,520
objectives you must reach Before
you say, right, it's April, I'm 

984
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,360
going to compete next month or a
few months down the line? 

985
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,400
What's weird man? 
Like with the the debut NBF 

986
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,840
federation, which is the one I 
went pro at with this last 

987
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,560
season, which is one of the more
prestigious natural bodybuilding

988
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,200
federations, They require that 
pros compete every two years to 

989
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,000
maintain pro status, which I do 
not agree with. 

990
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,080
I don't think it is optimal from
a health standpoint, especially 

991
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,000
if you're doing such a long prep
like I am at 33 weeks. 

992
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,440
You know, it takes time to build
muscle tissue as a natural 

993
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:54,320
athlete, as a mature athlete. 
So if I'm spending half the year

994
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,640
in deficit, you know, I'm not 
really having that much time to 

995
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,200
build more muscle before I step 
on stage again if I compete 

996
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,800
every two years. 
So I would like to see them 

997
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,320
increase that window of time. 
What I'll probably wind up doing

998
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:10,000
is take five years off or so and
then put on some legitimate 

999
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,000
muscle size and tissue and then 
have to just regain pro status 

1000
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,880
to that federation. 
But I'll be looking better for 

1001
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,440
it, you know taking that much 
more time off as far as 

1002
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,760
milestones that I would want to 
accomplish before competing 

1003
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,840
again, there's a lots of 
milestones from you know other 

1004
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:28,960
areas of my life standpoint. 
I want to focus on the business 

1005
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:30,960
more. 
I want to have another kid in 

1006
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,560
that time. 
I want to focus on homesteading 

1007
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,120
and just some some life goals 
before I compete again and focus

1008
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,960
on the Prem. 
But from a physical standpoint, 

1009
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:44,680
I would love to, you know, put 
on some more size like I I got 

1010
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:46,920
to the conditioning that I 
needed to to be incredibly 

1011
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,320
competitive with the season. 
Like I was consistently the 

1012
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,360
leanest guy on stage, but I was 
often times not the largest gown

1013
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:54,680
stage. 
I don't ever anticipate being 

1014
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,560
the largest guy, but I was 
certainly benefit and be more 

1015
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,480
competitive if I had an 
additional, you know, 10 lbs of 

1016
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,400
muscle on my frame. 
So just simply putting on some 

1017
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,000
more lean tissue over that time?
That makes sense, yeah. 

1018
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,960
Do you think it's realistic to 
say you could gain 10 LB more 

1019
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,160
muscle? 
Because looking at your frame, 

1020
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,880
you know you're not sure, but 
you're shorter guy like have you

1021
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,360
looked at other competitors that
are in your kind of category, 

1022
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,520
your kind of height and said, 
well, they're a bit bigger than 

1023
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,480
me here I can build my shoulders
up or whatever it is. 

1024
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:24,920
Do you do you feel that's a 
realistic goal? 

1025
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:27,320
It'd be tough, man. 
I mean, like, I compete in the 

1026
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:31,520
lightweight class. 
Lightweight is 150 to 165. 

1027
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,400
I was competing at like one 
52153. 

1028
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,040
So if I added in there 10 lbs, 
I'd be on the upper end of that 

1029
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,440
lightweight category, which 
would be good because I mean 

1030
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,480
then I would be on the the upper
end of the category. 

1031
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,400
But gaining 10 lbs of actual 
skeletal tissue in a five year 

1032
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,560
span, as some of that's been 
training for as long as I have 

1033
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:55,200
would be difficult for sure. 
I think it could be done, 

1034
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,120
especially if I'm really 
aggressive with the intake and 

1035
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,120
the training load. 
So I'll certainly make that the 

1036
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,880
goal, but shoot, I mean even 5 
lbs would look. 

1037
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:05,040
I mean honestly it's kind of 
crazy man. 

1038
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,400
Like, I've got pictures of me 
from this last competitive 

1039
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,440
season weighing the same that I 
weighed during my very first 

1040
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,800
competition in 2012. 
Yet my muscle size, shape, 

1041
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,240
fullness, symmetry was 
significantly improved. 

1042
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,720
So you can't really just look at
the scale weight in black and 

1043
00:52:23,720 --> 00:52:25,880
white and say, OK, if I gained 
this much, I'll look this much 

1044
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:27,480
better, 'cause there's a lot of 
other factors there. 

1045
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,480
The roundness of the muscle, the
definition, the density, all of 

1046
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,400
these things. 
I was much leaner this go around

1047
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,680
than I was at the same body 
weight in years prior. 

1048
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:36,800
So I've definitely put on lean 
tissue since then. 

1049
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,880
But if I could adhere to, you 
know, focusing on adding that 

1050
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,840
tissue and coming in at some 
point in the future with the 

1051
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,320
same degree of conditioning as I
did this year, but with an 

1052
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,800
additional, you know, 5 lbs of 
actual skeletal tissue, that 

1053
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:52,120
would make a night and day 
difference. 

1054
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,520
Yeah, I understand. 
Like the the scale weight is 

1055
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,120
just an, it's just a number. 
It doesn't actually depict what 

1056
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,720
you are on stage. 
I compete at the top of my 

1057
00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:03,400
category in the classic 
division. 

1058
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,960
Now if I gained 2 lbs more more 
weight, but dropped another 2 

1059
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,080
lbs of fat that looked 
drastically different on my body

1060
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:15,600
but also compete very very very 
flat. 

1061
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,000
So I complete. 
So I I don't really load up at 

1062
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,680
all. 
I just pretty much die down into

1063
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:21,880
the show. 
When I've got striated glutes. 

1064
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,960
I then know OK, I need to drop 
another £5 just to be sure. 

1065
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:26,800
Yeah, you know. 
Totally, man. 

1066
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:28,360
Did you find that? 
Did you find that at all? 

1067
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,120
Yeah. 
When you get striated glutes 

1068
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,440
that is you know you're dialed 
in at that point because you 

1069
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,400
know many competitors don't 
bring that level of 

1070
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,200
conditioning. 
So I was, I was surprised to see

1071
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,040
that I got as light as I did 
with this go round. 

1072
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:45,920
I think the lightest that came 
in that was 151.2, so pretty 

1073
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:47,880
much 30 lbs down from start 
weight. 

1074
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:50,720
But realistically I mean this 
was the leanest that I've ever 

1075
00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:53,200
been before this was the goal 
with this entire prep was to be 

1076
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,800
the leanest man alive. 
So I feel pretty confident I was

1077
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,080
able to achieve that to some 
degree and I'm just excited to 

1078
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,160
have set a new standard for 
myself and know what I need to 

1079
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:04,840
get better than for the next 
count go round. 

1080
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,000
Excellent. 
Well, I've enjoyed that very 

1081
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:09,200
much. 
I think it's been highly 

1082
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,120
informative to the viewers and 
listeners. 

1083
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,400
Where can people find you if you
want to be found? 

1084
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,560
All things Keto Savage man, Keto
savage.com, Keto Savage on 

1085
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,680
socialketobrick.com, keto brick 
on social for the bricks. 

1086
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:26,000
And we're working on a online 
course right now that totally 

1087
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,800
illustrates this dieting 
protocol, how to optimize for 

1088
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,360
the stage composition changes, 
macro manipulations that will be

1089
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,680
under a different URL, but that 
is not yet live. 

1090
00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:39,640
Excellent. 
Well, thank you for your time. 

1091
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:41,800
Appreciate you coming on and 
I'll talk to you soon. 

1092
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:43,360
Appreciate you, man. 
Always a pleasure.