Hello, ladies and gents Roberts. Exclusive s.com to they have
special guest, dr. Chris Palmer On the Line, dr.
Chris Palmer is a Harvard psychiatrist and he just
finished writing a book called brain energy, where he Dives
deep into looking at neurological disorders.
As a result of metabolic dysfunction, this is something
that I'm very passionate about something that I've probably all
of us have dealt with in some form or fashion.
Family members having dealt with depression schizophrenia OCD
just mood disorder. Orders linked to metabolic
dysfunction. So we Dove deep into his
theories behind. What the cause of this is, what
are some possible solutions. What lifestyle factors we can
incorporate to mitigate this risk?
I thoroughly enjoy the conversation.
I've got a ton of respect for dr.
Palmer and I learned a ton. So without further Ado, sit back
relax and do the podcast with dr.
Chris Palmer. And we are live, dr.
Chris Palmer. How are you, sir?
I am. Well, how are you?
I am doing wonderfully. Well, myself cannot complain.
I have, I met you at the Hard to Kill Summit, that Jamie Seaman
hosted, and I absolutely loved your presentation.
I love to kind of dive deeper into.
I'm assuming your new book is kind of a deeper dive into many
of the topics that you were touching during the
presentation, correct? In some ways.
Yes. And in some ways, even bigger
some ways, even if in some ways even bigger.
So this yeah, I know the book is kind of it looks at all of the
science that has been accumulated in the mental health
field for the past 100 years and tries to put put it together in
one coherent way. And at the end of the day, the
conclusion that I have come to that I think Think the science
clearly leads to did actually mental disorders.
Are metabolic disorders of the brain and that leads to entirely
new ways to understand Mental Illness, but it also leads to
entirely new ways to treat it. When did that shift in?
I mean, is that pretty well agreed upon accepting within
your sphere of influence? Or is there a lot of controversy
around that belief? Oh, there's going to be so much
controversy of, but, but as I said, but the research
connecting it. Well, let me, let me take a step
back. So, right now, if you ask any
leading psychiatrists or neuroscientist, what causes
mental illness, They're going to kind of shrug their shoulders
and say, you know what, that's a really great question.
And it's complicated and no one knows for sure.
And what they'll say is that, but we do know risk factors, and
they lump into biological psychological and social risk
factors or factors involved and that includes things like
genetics or, you know, neurotransmitters hormones
inflammation but also Logical and social things.
Trauma stress, but if you ask them, well how do all those
things fit together? And how exactly do they lead to
mental illness? The prevailing answer right now
is that no one knows. And that is one of the reasons
why we struggle so much in the mental health field, is because
right now, nobody can say for sure what a mental illness is or
what causes it, and more importantly, although we have
many treatments to offer people. The hard reality is that they
don't work or at least not fully and durably for the majority of
people. And so, you know, for people
suffering from schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, you all know
or if you know anybody with those disorders, you already
know. Yeah, our current treatments are
definitely falling short for those people.
But even with bread and butter depression.
The majority of people who get treatment for depression, do not
get all the way better and stay all the way better over time.
So to give you an example, one study followed people with
depression for 12 years and looked at well how exactly how
many of them are getting all the way better and staying all the
way better. And what that study found was
that only 10% of the people getting treatment for
depression, we're getting all the way better and staying
better. So what that mean, what that
means is that people have to switch medications, they have to
up their medications, they have to add Psychotherapy or other
treatments because the depression keeps coming back
out. And I feel like correct me if
I'm wrong here but I feel like up to now or maybe largely now
as well. People have placed this massive
separation between the brain and the body like people.
When they look at this orders physical, you know, implications
that they look at the body, they look at things from it, you
know, the neck down in the neck up, like, they don't like to
think of things in them being interconnected.
I feel like that's kind of the general consensus.
Like, people don't often times see them as being, you know.
Directly correlated and connected when it comes to
proper brain, health and function or a logical function
and everything going on south of the neck.
That is absolutely true. And, you know, I in many ways,
it kind of made sense, we know that mental illness is a
neurological illnesses, largely reside in the brain.
So it kind of makes sense that researchers would focus on the
brain and try to figure out what the hell's going on there.
What like, what is, what is going on with the brain?
And why is it malfunctioning And I think one of the biggest
complications in our field is that the brain is such a
complicated organ. Hmm.
And and the reality is we don't even we barely know the basics
about how it actually functions how neurons function and all the
support cells. We are, we are only beginning to
understand how the brain functions.
And and I think that's part of the complication is that
researchers have assumed well in order to solve the puzzle of
mental illness. We first have to figure out
exactly and precisely how the brain works and once we do that,
then we'll be able to figure out what's wrong.
And the reality is we are probably hundreds of years away
from actually knowing everything that we would need to know under
that model. But the really great news is
that when you do an assessment of all of the research that's
been done, You actually start to see precisely what you were
talking about, it way these disorders that we usually think
of as body disorders like heart attacks or diabetes.
Those disorders actually have strong relationships and people
with mental illness and they end up being bi-directional
relationships. And what that means is that, if
I look at a group of people with heart attacks, they're much more
likely to develop symptoms of mental illness, like depression.
For instance, everybody look at a group of people with
depression, they're more likely to have heart attacks.
Same goes for diabetes, same goes for strokes, same goes for
obesity, actually, just obesity, plain old obesity, people who
are obese, are more likely to develop a mental disorder and
people with mental disorders, are more likely to become obese.
and when we let you know that those were some of the clues
that I started to pursue when I was trying to better understand
mental illness and what might be causing it And when you do a
deep dive into all of those disorders, there's actually only
one way to connect them all and in some ways, I would call it
two ways. So the overarching way is, they
are all metabolic disorders. But if people ask like well what
does that mean? But it really means is that
there are problems in the way mitochondria function in cells.
Gotcha, I'm assuming that correlation has always existed
but it's only been here recently that people like yourself have
been connecting those dots and looking at it from that angle.
I mean, what has been the angle that that people have taken up?
To this point, just simply separating the two and looking
at all the neurological disorders and entity in and of
itself. Well.
You know, I think a lot of researchers and certainly the
overwhelming majority of clinicians.
Either shrug their shoulders and say no one knows it's all
complicated. Some researchers have their
particular passions like it's psychological or you know, it's
due to upbringing and Trauma in childhood or is due to, you
know, a specific hormonal imbalance.
There are there psychiatrist who specializes in women's mental
health and they're focused on preventing and progesterone and
the roles they play in mental illness.
But I think all of those specialists.
I understand that. Well, I'm just focused on one
aspect of mental health but I know that what I'm doing doesn't
apply to everybody with a mental disorder.
There have been researchers, you know, I would not have been able
to write the book that I wrote without all of this pioneering
research by other people. So, so in many ways I'm just
kind of standing up on their shoulders and putting it
together in a unique way that I think actually puts it all
together in a logical coherent and rational way But other
researchers have definitely, you know, have definitely said that
mental disorders are related to metabolic problems and or
mitochondria and interestingly that research goes back over 80
years. So in the 1940s, we had research
showing that people with bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are
more likely to have signs of insulin resistance.
And there are more likely to have problems or abnormalities
in lactate metabolism. And so, for any people who are
really into the science of metabolic problems, you know
that those are kind of Hallmarks of metabolic problems, both
lactate and insulin resistance. And again, that research goes
back to the 1940s by, by the time we the 1990s rolled around
researchers were doing all these brain scans on people with
mental illness. And most people have heard of
these scans, they include things like functional, MRI are pet,
scans are spect scans. All these other scams guess with
all of those cans are measuring their all measuring brain
metabolism. And so, those researchers are
going to hear my theory at first glance and say, well, duh, Chris
Paul are we've known that for decades like everybody's known
that the brains of people with mental illness, are kind of
metabolically different, but I don't think they necessarily
recognize that those metabolic differences are actually the
root cause of the mental illness.
I think that they saw them as just side effects of whatever
was causing the mental illness. So there's some unknown factor
causing mental illness and it is just contributing to these
metabolic differences. What I am arguing Is that the
metabolic differences are? In fact the core problem, they
are the root problem of mental illness.
And it's, it's actually not nearly as complicated to figure
out. Once you, once you see the big
picture, like once you see the forest from the trees is
actually not nearly as complicated.
As I think many researchers have assumed.
It would be. Yeah.
I feel like, you know, looking at it, through the lens of it
being in a metabolic issue, makes a lot of sense.
I read Sam apples book ravenous had him on the podcast.
We're diving into Otto Warburg and his metabolic.
Research on cancer cell growth Warburg effect.
And he was under the impression that a lot of This research on,
you know, cancer being a metabolic disease was, was kind
of put on, hold to some degree because of all the compelling
research and just excitement towards genetics in like the
Human Genome Project. When all that started becoming
Paramount, I would imagine something similar has happened
with regard to looking at these neurological disorders and
people kind of sidestepping, it being a metabolic dysfunction
Can't more so from a genetic and epigenetic standpoint as well.
Absolutely 100%. So, you know, and and again once
again, there's good reason for that.
So one of the things that we know with certainty is that many
mental disorders run and family. So if both of your parents had
schizophrenia, there's a much higher likelihood that you're
also going to have schizophrenia.
Same goes with bipolar disorder, or ADHD or A diagnosis.
And so, for the most part, researchers assumed will, that
means it must be genetic. And so when we map the Human
Genome Project, everybody assumed we were going to have me
remember, Oculus things happening in the mental health
field, because they were finally once and for all get to figure
out exactly what genes are defective in all of these people
and maybe we can use that basic science information to come up
with more effective. Treatments.
Maybe we could even prevent these disorders or even cure
these disorders. It is the end of the day.
What they found? Is that there is no, there are
no genes that confer any significant degrees of risk in
the majority of people who have these disorders.
Instead, there are thousands of genes, that confer tiny amounts
of risk, usually less than one percent increased risk.
And so thousands of genes that confer tiny amounts, Of risk.
All much more importantly, is that there's no one gene for
anyone disorder not even one. So, we would assume that, you
know, schizophrenia is different than bipolar disorder.
So there must be schizophrenia genes and there must be
different, bipolar jeans. But it turns out that's not true
at all. That the genes that do exist,
that confer risk confer risk for many psychiatric and often
metabolic disorders. So one gene can confer risk for
bipolar disorder but also schizophrenia and also
depression and also alcoholism and also epilepsy, maybe even
obesity. The one Zine can confer risk for
numerous different disorders and so the genetic information that
we have make no mistake is invaluable because that research
has been done and it's given us, clear answers, but the answers
are not at all what we expected them to be.
The answers are that mental disorders, even ones, like
depression and schizophrenia are actually not so different from
each other. After all.
And the answer largely is that genes don't explain most mental
disorders in the overwhelming majority of people.
Which if we if we use it as a segue to talk about looking
through mental disorders, as a result of metabolic dysfunction,
like, like pull the curtain back on.
What? That entails exact like, I hear
that and I feel like that is empowering because unlike, you
know, your genetics, which you don't really have a direct hand
in your kind of just what your parents gave you.
I feel like when you looked at to the lens with being a
metabolic dysfunction, it's somewhat empowering because then
you have much more control over your environmental factors.
What you eat what. You're But the day-to-day, and
that's going to have a pretty profound effect on whether or
not these, these you're able to mitigate the adverse effects of
these dysfunctions. 100%, I feel exactly the same way and That is
the thing. that has been shocking to me, and Because it
is completely upended the way I think about mental disorders,
even ones like, bipolar or schizophrenia.
Hmm, But also ones like OCD are even PTSD or depression or
anxiety that these disorders, represent the brain
malfunctioning in a metabolic way.
And what it means is that we can use metabolic strategies.
Exactly like you described diet, exercise, but also things like
sleep getting good sleep. Decreasing your stress.
When you're able to do that, those are all improving
metabolism, or addressing metabolic problems.
And I actually, genuinely believe that we can help the
majority of Well probably not 100 percent of people, but I
think we can definitely help more than fifty percent of the
people who are currently diagnosed with a chronic mental
disorder. I think we can help them fully
recover and even potentially get off all of their medications and
be happy healthy productive citizens, human beings again.
I wholeheartedly agree. If you're speaking with
something like, what is your elevator pitch?
So to speak. Like if you're talking with
somebody that has been diagnosed with, you know, depression OCD
schizophrenia and they are a lay person, that's not really.
In the know when it comes to nutrition metabolism.
All of this stuff. Like how would you talk to that
person to let them know that? Hey, look, this is likely a
result of your lifestyle, factors your diet.
It's your your activities, how would you word that for them to,
I guess give them like a Reader's Digest version of
what's going on here, from molecular level and how they can
be empowered to fix it. The simple version is that
mental disorders are metabolic disorders and under the in order
to understand what that means, you have to understand
mitochondria. And mitochondria are influenced
by numerous things. They are definitely influenced
by diet and exercise. They can also be influenced by
trauma and stress. They can become dysfunctional
through environmental toxins. They can even become
dysfunctional through some prescription medications
including some of the medications, some of the very
men. Occations that we prescribe to
people with psychiatric disorders and so you know,
something like an environmental toxin.
I want to just point out that's not necessarily anybody's fall
forgetting that. They probably didn't know they
they may have done nothing, you know, there may have been
nothing. They could have done to avoid
exposure to that toxin But once that happens, then they can
develop metabolic dysfunction. So, another clear example just
to just to give you an example that kind of lets people
completely off the hook from lifestyle.
We know that infections across the board infections are
associated with higher rates of mental illness After The
Infection, and this is particularly strong in children,
but it, but it can start even with your mother when she was
pregnant with you. If she got an infection with a
virus or a bacteria that affects that child and leads to higher
rates of mental illness in those children, Now, an infection is
no one's fault. Nobody set out to do anything to
get an infection. For the most part, people can't
help it, but that infection can take a toll on your metabolism.
once people understand the science of metabolism and
mitochondria though and once you understand that's kind of
complicated and I dumb it down in the BOK to I really try to
make it understandable to as many people as possible but once
you understand what the root of the problem is Then we can talk
about Solutions and even if you have a metabolic problem because
you got covid and now you have long covid which is resulting in
symptoms of depression or brain fog as our mental symptoms.
So that person is going to say well, it's I wasn't eating a bad
diet. The reason I have my symptoms is
because I got an infection with probe it.
I would say if you actually understand the detailed science,
changing your diet and or changing your exercise routine
and or paying attention to your sleep, or managing, your use of
substances, can all play a role in your recovery.
So even if you were somebody who is relatively healthy
metabolically and mentally speaking, and then you get covid
and you have a horrible, severe case of it and it really beats
you down, you can Bite your way out of that using metabolic and
lifestyle strategies. Now, obviously, as you hinted at
or alluded to a lot of people are, in fact, developing
metabolic problems because of their diets or because they
aren't exercising, or because they aren't prioritizing an
adequate amount of sleep or because they're over using a lot
of drugs and alcohol or other things.
And this solution is pretty obvious for those people.
We need to clean up your diet. You need to start prioritizing
sleep. You need to stop using all the
substances, all of that. Is there much consensus as to?
What is the don't want to say optimal or ideal died?
Because everybody's going to come at me from an individuality
standpoint. But is there a general consensus
as to what diet is likely going to contribute to the least
significant amount of metabolic dysfunction so right now I don't
think there is a consensus on that and as you say we have to
work with individuals and, you know, individuals have to be
willing to do whatever diet we want to prescribe I think that,
you know, one of the things that this Theory raises though is
that we need a tremendous amount of research funding for diet for
dietary interventions for mental illnesses, the the diet that I
have been most focused on. As a professional is, I've been
using the ketogenic diet To help people and the reason I'm
focused on the ketogenic diet. You know, I came across it just
by chance. Random chance.
Hmm. And, and the thing that set me
actually on the path of all of this work was when I had a
patient with schizophrenia use, the ketogenic diet just to try
to lose some weight. And his symptoms.
Dramatically improved. His auditory hallucinations his
delusions. Were dramatically reduced for
him. They didn't go completely away,
but they were like 95 percent down I've seen many other
patients subsequent to him, who did have chronic schizophrenia
or chronic bipolar disorder who are now in full and complete
remission on a ketogenic diet And it's not that I think
everybody needs to be on a ketogenic diet, but I think the
ketogenic diet has tremendous healing potential especially
when it comes to metabolism in mitochondria.
And and I have really seen some miraculous results.
We, you know, we do have five controlled trials underway,
already of the ketogenic diet for serious mental illness.
So, I'm particularly passionate and hopeful about the ketogenic
diet, but I think that, for some people, like one kid that I
described in the book, The only dietary intervention I did with
him was actually to remove sugar during the school week and we
also started using light therapy in the morning for him.
But those two things, light therapy in the morning and get
rid of sugar during the school week.
Those two things were enough to completely change the course of
his life. Is school performance and his
mental health And so, sometimes a fairly straightforward, simple
obvious intervention. Like let's get rid of all the
sugar can work, but I think for other people, especially people
who, you know, have schizophrenia or severe, bipolar
disorder, I think those people are going to need probably more
than just getting rid of sugar, they're probably going to need
some kind of a ketogenic diet intervention, at least early on
What's interesting? I used to have, I used to suffer
from just debilitating OCD like obsessive compulsive disorder,
like Howard Hughes level shit and I adopt the ketogenic diets
in 2015 and it has gone. I mean, it's definitely not
nearly as rampant as it was back then and I still have some
traits of OCD but I think it's kind of more habitual at this
point more so than like, you know, Logical.
But like, just for me speaking and notably on that, I've
noticed a tremendous positive Improvement after adopting.
Can you drink diet with OCD specific at the time?
I had no idea, they would possibly be interrelated.
But I've noticed that personally, Yeah, you're and
you're not alone. I have several patients, who
some of them actually had pretty crippling OCD and the ketogenic
diet dramatically reduce their symptoms and with one or two of
them as far as we can tell put their symptoms into remission.
I you know, I'm happy to share a personally that I to I had OCD
when I was a kid and it persisted into early adulthood
and when I went on a ketogenic diet I definitely notice
significant benefits. And at this point, now, I really
don't have any signs or symptoms of OCD.
Like, I don't even have a twinge of it, like I can do that.
Things that I would never have been able to do before terms of
touching things that I might have considered dirty or
contaminated or gross or whatever.
Yeah, I I don't, I don't even have a hint of it anymore.
Was that personal aspect of your life?
One of the motivating factors for you pursuing this study.
You know, it's interesting because at that point in time.
I was less concerned about the OCD I, so I, when I was in my
20s, I was diagnosed with metabolic syndrome and I so I
had pre diabetes, high blood pressure, horrible triglycerides
like through the roof over 300 and really low HDL cholesterol
and I had a bit of a gut. So I pretty much had it all.
And and I was doing a low fat diet and exercising regularly
I'd finished medical school. I was now doing residency and I
was really doing my best to take care of myself.
I was not a lazy slacker, I was not eating junk food, I was
exercising, I was diligent about following this super low fat
diet and those things were just not doing it for me.
And and at some point I decided Added to try at that point.
It was called the Atkins diet, and I decided to try it in a
last-ditch effort to try to, you know, before my doctor forced me
on medications and you know, within three months my metabolic
syndrome was gone. But the bigger thing that I
noticed was Improvement in my mood and energy, you know,
concentration and confidence and my sleep, like all of those
things got Dramatically better. And You know, at that point, I
didn't even really pair it with OCD.
I assumed these are all different disorders and they all
have must have different causes but I didn't even pair it with
the OCD. I was more focused on my mood
and sleep and all of that. And but that was that experience
actually, was the thing that set me on this calf.
I, you know, I started recommending the diet to friends
and family. They were a lot of them were
noticing these mood. Benefits and you know, mental
benefits and then I started using it in patients with
treatment-resistant depression and sure enough, I started
seeing dramatic benefits and some of them but it was, it was
that in it was that patient in 2016 who had schizoaffective
disorder, who got dramatically better from it.
That when, when I saw that, I could no longer kind of keep
this quiet. Quiet because I was kind of on
the down low with it. Like I'm a Harvard psychiatrist.
I can't be talking about a diet to treat mental illness.
That sounds like a, you get fired for saying something like
that. That's like, that's a quack for
you. Yeah.
And and as you know, and many others, know a lot of doctors
and the low carb and keto Community have, in fact, been
fired or threatened with being fired or lost their licenses and
I was well aware of that. I I want to be one of them, I
was just like I'll just I'll just quietly help the patients
in front of me and I don't need to make noise about this.
It's just you know it's just depression but when I saw it
work for schizophrenia, I was kind of like okay, this is way
too important. This is this represents like a
breakthrough in Takaya tree. Like I can't keep quiet about
this because how many other people might benefit from it?
And and yeah. And then it just snowballed
because is my first thing was like, wait, but this doesn't
even make sense. Nobody's, even gonna believe
this because you know, the keto diet is good for weight loss.
A lot of people know that keto diets also good for type 2,
diabetes. Keto diets getting study for
Alzheimer's disease. Even and now I'm going to come
out and say, it's good for depression and schizophrenia
like that, that just sounds like snake oil.
There's no way in hell anybody's gonna believe that.
So so I have it. Go on this deep dive of the
science, try to figure out Are all of these disorders somehow
connected. And if they are exactly how,
like, how are they connected at the cellular level, and how can
I explain this and understand this better?
And what can it tell us about the cause of mental illness?
and, I think when I finally figured it all out, it was it
really was Way Beyond anything that I had ever imagined I could
do. It was way beyond anything I set
out to do. Who is really just random chance
that I made these observations over the you know over the last
20 years. And I kept kind of accumulating
these observing. Like that's funny or that's
unusual or wow, that's weird. And and then I finally just got
to a point where I'm like I gotta put all this shit together
is just too important. Well it's so like when you're
talking about anything neurological, it's just, it's
just so much Nuance to it. And like, when I think of my
personal space with OCD and yours to, it sounds like like
when you look at what you're consuming on, what you're
putting on your plate to eat every single day.
It's hard to see how that could be the primary driver as to why
you have this aversion to touching things with germs in
your case. Or for me, it was like my OCD
kind of manifests itself in me having this fear of something
bad happening to my loved ones. If I didn't do a certain thing
for a certain number of repetitions, just weird stuff.
Like people that are experiencing that are going to
have a hard time seeing how, what they're consuming on a
day-to-day basis is going to be the driving factor in those
psychological thought. It's, you know.
Absolutely, and well, and and here's the thing.
So this is one way, this is one area where I think I have a
different perspective than maybe some other people in the
low-carbon Quito community. So, a lot of, a lot of people
would assume that if the ketogenic diet can effectively
treat it, You know, in this case OCD then it must mean that what
we were putting on our plate before was the cause of the OCD.
And I think in some cases that might be true.
But I actually firmly believe that infections.
Like we have an abundance of evidence over many many decades.
Infections. Can cause OCD.
And everybody assumes, well, that must be some autoimmune
disorder or something going on, like, the infection is and
there's even a class of OCD it's called and US related to
streptococcal infections, where the thought it largely is.
It's an autoimmune disorder to a bacterium and those antibodies
start attacking the brain and cause OCD symptoms.
And you know, with other infections it might be the
inflammation and so everybody's that's a big theory that
everybody loves it brain inflammation.
Brain inflammation is bad for you and it maybe it's causing
these mental illnesses and what I'm here to say is, yeah, all of
those things are true. And even if somebody's OCD is
due to an infection, the ketogenic diet can be a really
powerful treatment. And why do I say that?
I say it based on Decades of Neuroscience literature that we
have in the epilepsy field. So it turns out that the
ketogenic diet can affect neurotransmitter systems It
reduces brain inflammation. It can stop chronic inflammatory
or autoimmune diseases in some cases.
I've talked to some people who have put autoimmune disorders,
not they haven't cured them but they have dramatically reduced,
the symptoms of autoimmune disorders when they're in
ketosis. And when they get out of
ketosis, the sometimes those autoimmune disorders, come right
back. But the ketogenic diet changes
the gut microbiome, it changes, you know, gene expression, it
does so many things. And so even if somebody
developed a mental illness, Through a non dietary cause like
trauma or an infection. Using a dietary strategy or I
would say overall metabolic strategy can still be important
and so an easy, another easy example of a metabolic treatment
would be exercised. So if so if somebody is
relatively healthy, doesn't have really serious, metabolic
problem doesn't really have a serious mental illness.
And ends up developing a mental illness for any reason exercise
can be a really powerful treatment.
Now, I wouldn't say that the primary cause of that person's
mental illness was the fact that they weren't exercising.
Because there are plenty of people who don't exercise who
don't have mental illnesses, right?
But once you develop that metabolic disturbance in your
brain, you can use exercise as a powerful Intervention to
correct, the metabolic problem that's occurring.
And and I feel the same way about dietary strategies that
you can use dietary strategies, to correct metabolic problems,
even if a bad diet, wasn't the primary cause of your problem.
And to be fair, you know, like you say, it may not have been
the lack of exercise or the poor diet.
That was the Catalyst for that mental disorder.
But if the infection for instance, was the lack of
exercise and poor diet, likely didn't bode well in preventing.
Our improving one's immune Health, to prevent that
infection of take place in the first instance.
Absolutely. I mean I think as a rule of
thumb people who are following healthy diets.
However, we wanted to find that and I would Define a healthy
diet as a diet that confers Health.
Oh, it's if your diet puts you and I think it's now, the eight
percent of the u.s. population that does not have a metabolic
problem. Then whatever diet you're
following. I'm going to say keep following
it because clearly it's working for you.
And if you're exercising, but as a rule of thumb people who are
Health following healthy diets, people who are exercising
regularly, they tend to be much more resilient to infections.
They tend to be much more resilient to Major stressors or
traumas and life. It doesn't make them.
Invincible, all of us are vulnerable.
We're all living organisms. So that means we're all
vulnerable. We're all going to die.
So there's no, there's no immortality, there's no
invincibility for anybody, no matter what you're doing.
But but as a rule of thumb, if you're taking really good care
of yourself, you are going to be more resilient.
And that means, if you do get an infection, you're more likely to
bounce back. And we know this with certainty,
with covid for ends, we have so much data, the people who are
most vulnerable to experience it today.
Dying from covid, Princeton. The number one group were the
elderly, the older you are the more metabolically frail.
You are. We know that.
Then the second group with the highest mortality or people with
schizophrenia, really? Yeah and and then after them
came, like people with metabolic disorders, obesity type 2
diabetes, Those people have much higher mortality rates as well.
Now, again, this this isn't all or nothing.
You could have schizophrenia and have gotten covid and maybe you
fared just fine. And you could also be somebody
who's really met a quote-unquote metabolically.
Healthy got a horrible case of covid, maybe your immune system
just wasn't up to the challenge and it ravaged, your body.
And you maybe some people may have died even though they were
relatively healthy and I do know, one person in particular.
I'm not going to name names but she was pretty vocal about it on
social media that, you know, somebody who is following a very
healthy diet. Had been a, I think a
professional athlete and got covid and really was set back
from it. So you know, there's there are
no absolutes. it's But you're right, as a rule of thumb, if
you're taking good care of yourself, you are going to be
more resilient and you're going to be less likely to have
illnesses. Now, I would imagine you're
likely getting a lot of pushback from conventional, wetter mess,
Western medicine and you know the pharmacology companies on
this because it's going to put the power in the person's hands
largely as opposed to the drug producers hands.
I know like for me personally Personally I've got, I've had
several family members, this hits home quite a bit for me.
I've had several family members that several but a handful that
have struggled with severe depression and when they're in
that state it's like it's strange that they're not in the
nutrition space they don't think like you and I think they're
just looking to fix the problem. They go to the doctor, the
doctor tells them it's a hormonal balance imbalance in
their brain and they are you know they push on this Cascade
of different drugs, ssris to try and Fix this.
It seems to work for a week or two and they changed the
formula. Is there any truth to this
hormonal imbalance in these? These like I know what the cut
when it comes to drugs, there's been some instances where it
seems to make a positive Improvement, but often times
more often than not, it seemed it doesn't really seem to move
the needle forward. Any extensive Direction.
Yeah. So you know, the most prevalent
theory for mental illness right now is the at this chemical
imbalance Theory and the chemicals in that theory usually
are referring to neurotransmitters.
And so the cop, the common belief is that, you know,
depression is due to a serotonin deficiency.
And so, if you take a drug like Prozac or Zoloft or Paxil, then
that'll boost your serotonin levels and that Make you feel
better. And there are different
neurotransmitters for different illnesses.
You know, norepinephrine, maybe for ADHD dopamine, you know, is
that driver and addiction? But dopamine dysregulation is
also a driver in schizophrenia and bipolar And for the most
part, A lot of people still believe that you know there was
a paper that came out you know earlier this year that largely
refuted all of that but that paper wasn't new research.
That paper was a review, paper of research that has existed for
20 years and the author was simply kind of just putting it
in everyone's face that you guys all you.
People who are saying these, you know, depression is due to a
chemical imbalance. It's not, we've got the
evidence. We have tons of research on this
and there is no chemical imbalance, it doesn't exist.
Now. Just because the chemical
imbalance doesn't exist, doesn't necessarily mean that ssris.
Don't were at least for some people.
I think they do work for some people and I've seen them more
and I really have seen them more.
I don't say that. I don't say that lightly and I
offer different explanations in brain energy.
A about exactly how they're working.
There's a lot of research that already exists that shows that
some antidepressants actually can increase or enhance brain
metabolism. And they are likely doing that
through their effects on mitochondria.
And and so, although the explanation for why ssris might
work was clearly wrong. It doesn't take away from the
fact that ssris do work for some people.
And I am not in any way trying to stand in the way of people's
access to ssris if they are working for them. but as I
shared with you earlier, Of all comers who get treatment for
depression, only 10% get a sustained.
Remission of their depression. That means ssris are not working
or 90% of the people, they can reduce symptoms but they're not
putting the illness into remission and they don't last
long term for the majority of people And you know people think
that I'm being too pessimistic with that analysis like maybe
you're one of the lucky people and you're on Prozac and it's
working beautifully for you. And you're like, who the hell's
is, Chris Palmer? Why is he being so negative?
the reality is that depression is now the leading cause of
disability in the United States and on the planet There are no
medical disorders that are more disabling or that disabled more
people than plain old depression.
And it's not that these people are not getting treatment.
These people are getting plenty of treatment.
They are trying till after pill. After pill, they are trying
years or Decades of psychotherapy, they are trying
electroconvulsive therapy. They are trying transcranial
magnetic stimulation, they're getting ketamine.
Injections. Now they're all flocking to get
psychedelics. And the reality is that they are
disabled, they can't work. They can't function because
their depression is so bad. We clearly need new ways to
understand and treat mental illness.
And you know Robert is you and I know the solution is easier than
you all think. It's like it is within your
reach right now today. We don't have to wait 30 years
for somebody to figure out a brand new treatment.
That's going to come out on patent.
We can do these things right now today.
Yeah, 1000% agree with you. I have it's hard having these
conversations people that don't I guess they just don't think
it's that easy like my cousin. For instance who hadn't played a
bad prayer, she still has a really bad depression and he's,
you know, trying these different ssris on a regular basis and you
know, like when you stop and think about it, like 98 percent
of the body's serotonin is producing the gut.
Like you gotta get your digestive health and nutrition
dialed in in order to possibly hope to have you know, high
functioning You know, chemical hormonal balance in the body and
the Brain. But just simply laying that out
there. Like, people don't want to hear
that people that are in their Darkest Hour, simply want to
reach for a bottle of pills to fix the solution because they
place that on so much emphasis. I don't know if it needs to be a
shift in thinking on their part or just to shift in education.
I don't really know what needs to happen.
But when you look at it, like when you feel empowered in the
sense of look, what I consumed, what my day-to-day activities
are, you know, making sure I get quality sleep.
Like, if you die All those things in and still nothing's
working. Then yeah.
Maybe look towards the the, you know, antidepressants but it
makes no sense in my brain to reach for antidepressants
before. If you're following a terrible
diet, you're not getting any sleep.
You're drinking alcohol consuming drugs, recreational
drugs, and you're just not doing the initial groundwork, 100%
agree. And I think that I think that
the next step that I am certainly going to be
passionately pursuing is education.
Because right now, people like him are being told it's chemical
imbalance in your brain buddy. You?
Yeah exercise will be good if you if you if you want to be an
athlete and sure you can change your diet if you need to lose a
few pounds. But depression don't have
anything to do with exercise or Diet.
Depression is a chemical imbalance in your brain.
It's neurotransmitters. Its serotonin.
It's we know that we know that that we I'm a psychiatrist, I'm
a neuroscientist. We know that with certainty.
And what I am here to say as a Harvard psychiatrist and
neuroscientist is no, those people do not know that they are
full of shit. Yeah, and we need to call the
bullshit. and, The reality again, this isn't this is not an
ego battle as far as I'm concerned.
Millions of lives are ruined and devastated because people are
not being given accurate information and we need to give
people accurate scientific information.
We need to let people know, you know, all these pills you're
taking, they actually are not working for the overwhelming.
I mean majority of people who are taking them so let's call
bullshit on our treatments and let's get real and talk about
real solutions. And the reality is you know one
of the biggest challenges is exactly what you brought up.
Well how are you going to get a depressed person to do a diet?
How are you going to get a schizophrenic to go exercise?
They're all, they don't have any energy there, so pessimistic
there. Unmotivated they can barely drag
themselves out of bed. How are you going to get them to
do any of this? And what I am here to tell
everyone is that I can get them to do this?
If you give them accurate information, if you can be
patient with them, if you can encourage them and motivate them
and give them strategies and not give up on them if they fall off
the wagon in the first week or two because everybody does so
just get over it. Yep.
They're going to fall off the wagon.
That's okay. We all make mistakes veins.
In your whole diet is a hard thing to do.
So we got to be tolerant and patient people, but I am getting
them to do it and how do I do that or why are they doing it?
Because the real answer is, they are desperate to get better.
They will do anything, they will but they need to be given
accurate effective information and they need somebody to be
patient and tolerant with them and help them through it.
And I think when we do that, they will rise to the occasion,
they will. But bus their asses, they will
bend over backwards to do what whatever they can do.
Because the people that I work with want nothing, more than
just to be normal, they just want to be normal and live
normal lives. Yeah, I think that's that's
beautiful man. I feel like if you are motivated
by like if you're in the depths of hell and your mind and every
single day is Darkness, then you will literally do whatever it
takes to overcome that. So if if they believe that their
diet and their their exercise or activity can have a profound
effect, they're much more inclined to actually do it as
opposed to a doctor saying, that's not likely going to make
a difference at all. Just take this pill.
Going to be your shortest route of travel to fixing the
situation. I feel like if you flip the
script on that like you are then like if they see if they're able
to connect the dots to understand that this is going to
have a direct impact on their ability to recover, they'll have
all the motivation the world needed to make it you know, have
it. Yes, and I want to empower
clinicians to. I want clinicians to start
offering these treatments to people I want clinicians to
start giving people honest and accurate information.
Scientific information Because right now you're right.
If your cousin goes to his psychiatrist and says hey my
cousin, Robert said that, if I go on a diet it might help my
depression, the psychiatrist, get a laugh and say your cousin.
Robert sounds like quack is he is he is psychiatrist?
Is he a medical professional? No.
Well, then who the hell is he beyond the professional here?
I'm the one who Who knows what I'm talking about?
You got a chemical imbalance and you need a chemical to fix it.
and so we have to change the conversation but that
conversation needs to go through out the mental health profession
and You know I know some people listening might think that Chris
Palmer sounds pretty radical. He's a he's a fat he's like a
rebel Maverick. Whatever reality is I am a
Harvard Medical School psychiatrist assistant professor
of psychiatry I'm currently the director of the Department of
postgraduate and continuing education at what is now.
Ranked the number one Psychiatric Hospital in the
United States. And at least so far, I have the
support of my Institution. In what I am doing.
I have endorsements from major leading psychiatrists
neuroscientists and other Physicians for this book or this
Theory, This is not quackery. This is simply putting the
science together. And the shocking thing is that,
yes, diet, exercise, other lifestyle strategies can
sometimes result in miraculous Improvement in people with
serious, crippling brain disorders.
And this is going to require a sea change, like an entire
transformation in the mental health field.
And so one of the while I'm on this bandwagon, I'm just going
to go ahead and put in my plug if I can before man.
I want your help if you are listening.
And you know people who are suffering or if you yourself are
suffering and you know that we need to change.
We need a better way. I want you to join us.
We I am working with a lot of other people.
Now we want to start a Grassroots movement.
And so I'm going to encourage people to go to brain
energy.com, brain energy.com you go there.
I am hoping that that is going to be the landing base.
Someday soon for a Grassroots mental health movement and we
want we want to educate clinicians and patients and
family members. We want to let them know that
there is hope that you do not have a chronic lifelong
disorder, more than likely that there is hope for you healing,
and we can use strategies like diet and other lifestyle
strategies right now to help you heal.
But I want research, I'm an academic.
I understand that. People are going to want to see
research studies and they're going to want to see this
validated and clinical trials. I'm not I'm not standing in the
way of that. Yeah so let's get research
funding for it. I want insurance companies to
start covering this I want insurance companies, start
covering, not only a psychiatrist or a
psychotherapist, the maybe personal trainer, or a physical
therapist, or a dietitian, or a health and wellness coach.
Those are the people who are really going to put help with
these illnesses into remission and insurance company, should be
paying for it and in case you think, well, that's get a
bankrupt. The system, dr.
Palmer know it. Aim that is going to save the
system, billions of dollars because those interventions over
the course of one year are so much cheaper than putting people
on pill, after pill, after pill, or pills and pills all the same
time for the rest of their lives.
Doing those interventions for one year is a lot cheaper than
paying people disability payments from all of our
taxpayer dollars and these are people who want to work, they
can't work. Their brains aren't functioning
properly. If we can get their brains
functioning properly, through these kind of strategies, we
cannot only relieve their suffering, which is my primary
goal is a psychiatrist. We can get them off disability,
we can get them back to work. And now we've taken somebody who
is a burden to the system and now they will be attacks aimed,
revenue-producing Citizen and what's not to love about all of
it. Yeah, no, I'm in complete
agreement. I mean, when I, when I heard you
speak, when I saw you speak it hard to kill some.
Like I could tell you were incredibly passionate about this
topic and I never heard somebody speak on this from the Angela.
Brought the table. I feel like this is 100% the
message that needs to be put out there.
I love the angle that you're taking with it.
You've got the credentials to mcenamey.
People need to be here in exactly what you're saying and I
want it to be a Grassroots movement.
I want it to be, you know, gaining the momentum that it
should be because I feel like I'm in the day if people buy
into this message, if they started cooperating this in
their day-to-day life, I mean everything will improve like
nothing you're saying is because you're, you know, vested in
some, you know, patent for some SSRI on Table I call.
This is just simply good quality information eating, right?
Have the right activity, you know, improving your body from
the inside out as it. Always has been up to this point
and should be going forward and I feel like if people buy into
that, then everybody wins. Absolutely.
Yeah and I forgot to mention but yeah at the same time we're
doing these treatments for mental illness, guess what?
We're also going to be reducing obesity.
We're also going to be reducing or preventing type 2 diabetes or
going to be preventing heart attacks and strokes and
Alzheimer s disease and because all of those things are
interconnected and I go through the science of that if that
sounds too like to incredible. Unbelievable.
I go through the hard science of all of that.
How all of the mental disorders are interconnected with all of
those other things, obesity diabetes, heart attacks, and
even Alzheimer's disease. And and so if we get people
healthier Then it's going to save the system so much money,
but it's going to save so much human suffering.
It's going to reduce so much human suffering.
And I think as everyone knows when you look around the world
today, the health and wellness of the population of the world
is going down the tubes bass and we need radical changes and new
strategies. And the reason I'm calling for a
Grassroots movement is because There are powerful forces that
will not want these changes, so there are companies that are
making billions of dollars off of the current model.
I'm not here to say those are evil people.
I'm just here to say that those are people making billions of
dollars off the current model. If I were them, I wouldn't want
it to change. I would like being a
billionaire. Why would I want some Chris
Palmer guy coming along taken away?
My billion dollars. I wouldn't like that.
So, I would probably fight it. I would probably say, hey, no.
This this ain't right. We can't we can't be changed and
hold on here, folks. Let's just stick with the
current plan. An because they've invested lots
of money and time and they got a good thing going that doesn't
make him evil. But it doesn't make him right?
Yeah. And it doesn't end.
Does mean we should keep doing it because what we're doing
ain't working and we got to do better, we've just got to do
better. Well you 100% in my vote of
confidence. I mean anything I could ever
help do to spread the word. I mean, Count Me In and I'm
super excited about your book. I'm excited to hear you.
Continue to speak and spread this message.
I'm going to be spreading it sounded from rooftops myself
because I feel like this is, this is what the population
needs to hear right now. Thank you, Robert.
Hi I appreciate. We're going to need all the help
we can get. So we will take your, your
voice, your platform, all of your energy and whatever you can
do to help, we will take it. Well we will definitely have to
have you back on the Pike as any point.
You got an open invitation for sure.
This, this is going to be great for the launch the book, those
brain energy.com you said, right?
Yes, brain energy.com, perfect. And do you have a social profile
as well? People can follow you on.
I do so all my socials will be actually on brain energy out cam
you can, I've got a separate website, Chris Palmer and d.com.
That has some of the more specific research that I've been
doing with ketogenic diet and other stuff.
So if you want to check out more, Chris Palmer, specific
things, you can go to that website and all my socials are
there so you can follow me on Twitter.
Instagram, Facebook On. But yeah.
Now, I am really excited and passionate about this.
And the great news is that. A lot of people a lot of other
people are too. Yeah.
Other people that I'm talking to you are just as excited and
passionate as you are because they look around and they see
how the system is just fail. And so many people and we just
gotta change something. Well I truly truly appreciate
your passion. I appreciate your enthusiasm.
I appreciate you taking the time to jump on this podcast and
speak your mind on this. I feel like you know this this
is this is an epidemic of a scale that we haven't even seen
before and I feel like people need to be equipped the right
information to make a difference to feel empowered.
And I feel like when people feel empowered, they have the
confidence in themselves to make a change know that the changes
they make and have a lasting impact on their health and
well-being, mentally and physically the world as a whole
will improve. And I think you are incredibly
Well Suited deliver that message.
So, keep doing what you're doing keep fighting this fight.
Thank you Robert. Thank you very much sir, until
next time and you have a wonderful wonderful day, dr.
Chris Palmer. All right.
Thanks