1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,000 Hello, ladies and gents Robert Sykes keto Savage.com. 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,300 And today I have special guests. A mapple on the line, Sam is the 3 00:00:07,300 --> 00:00:10,400 author of a book that I have recently read that his quickly 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,200 become one of my favorite books so much, so that I bought a copy 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,400 for multiple people to gift this book because I am such a fan of 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,300 it. The book is called ravenous, it 7 00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:23,900 is about Otto Warburg the Nazis and the search for the cancer 8 00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:27,500 diet connection as what the the sub headline or says there. 9 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,400 And this is just not gonna Elijah. 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,900 It's an incredibly informative book but it takes on the 11 00:00:33,908 --> 00:00:37,100 approach of being very novel, ask in nature, like it's a great 12 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:39,800 storyline. You would read this book and 13 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:41,600 it's like something out of a science fiction movie. 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,700 When you really start diving into all the nuanced, you know, 15 00:00:44,700 --> 00:00:48,600 interlinking between Cancer the Nazis, Otto Warburg his personal 16 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,700 relationship. The discoveries he found truly 17 00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:55,500 truly an incredibly entertaining read but one that you're going 18 00:00:55,500 --> 00:00:59,200 to learn something from. So I cannot recommend picking up 19 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:00,600 this book. Yourself. 20 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,000 I got it on Audible, but get to wherever you want to get it. 21 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:05,200 Listen to it. It's an amazing. 22 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,100 It's amazing. Read all the way through 23 00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:09,900 thoroughly enjoyed the conversation with same here 24 00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:12,800 today because I wanted to dive deeper into the book itself, 25 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,000 what motivated him to write its and his writing style in general 26 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:19,300 and what compelled him to write this book. 27 00:01:19,300 --> 00:01:22,800 It took him five, six years to write this thing and it's an 28 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,500 incredibly impressive read like I've stressed already. 29 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,600 But I wanted to get him the author on here and kind of pick 30 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,000 his brain has to How he went about writing and creating this 31 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,800 novel? So without further Ado sit back 32 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,100 relax and do the podcast with Sam Apple. 33 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,000 We are laughs. I'm a how are you sir? 34 00:01:49,700 --> 00:01:52,100 Good, how you doing? I'm doing wonderfully. 35 00:01:52,100 --> 00:01:55,200 Well, I'm excited to get you on because I just finished reading 36 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,700 your book ravenous and this is one of the best books I've read 37 00:01:58,700 --> 00:02:01,100 in a long time, man. I must tip my hat to you on this 38 00:02:01,100 --> 00:02:02,700 one. Thank you. 39 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:05,700 I really appreciate it. I want to dive into the 40 00:02:05,700 --> 00:02:09,300 storyline, you know, for sure. But I'd love To kind of get some 41 00:02:09,300 --> 00:02:12,400 some backstory new person. Like what what made you want to 42 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,000 research this topic to begin with sure? 43 00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:21,500 I, you know, say around a decade ago, I became interested in 44 00:02:21,500 --> 00:02:27,700 metabolism and metabolic health. I had read some articles and 45 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:32,700 books by Gary Tao sand other authors and that sort of got me 46 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:37,100 interested in the topic. But I had always assumed, like, 47 00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:41,200 I think a lot of people, Still assume that cancer is not a 48 00:02:41,208 --> 00:02:44,000 metabolic disease. I thought that, you know, it 49 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,000 made sense for obesity diabetes, cardiovascular disease, maybe, 50 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:53,500 but not cancer and then really became fascinated by the the 51 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:55,700 science. When I understood that cancer, 52 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,100 you know, also clusters together with these other metabolic 53 00:02:59,100 --> 00:03:00,600 diseases. And, you know, I wanted to 54 00:03:00,608 --> 00:03:04,200 understand why that was. And so I started to research 55 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:09,700 that and think about it a lot. Not because I had a personal 56 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:12,000 connection to cancer necessarily though all of us. 57 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,000 Do, you know and ourselves about the people that I love to 58 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,700 cancer? But, you know, I was really 59 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:21,300 interested in the science and you know like everybody you know 60 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:27,900 wonder about my own cancer risk but you know as I got into it I 61 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:30,300 learned about this scientist that I ended up writing about 62 00:03:30,300 --> 00:03:35,200 Otto Warburg and I found his life and personality to be 63 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,900 fascinating. So then I had You know, both 64 00:03:38,100 --> 00:03:41,400 scientific subject, that fascinated, me and character who 65 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,500 fascinated. Me and yeah, as a science writer 66 00:03:44,500 --> 00:03:48,500 that's what I really look for is both of those pieces and you 67 00:03:48,500 --> 00:03:52,400 know, there's this was really, you know, an ideal project for 68 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,000 me because you know I had both pieces in my mind, have you 69 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,300 written this style of book before like kind of going into 70 00:04:00,300 --> 00:04:02,700 it from the scientific angle but then also kind of making it 71 00:04:02,900 --> 00:04:04,100 novel. Esk innocence. 72 00:04:05,500 --> 00:04:09,700 No I haven't, I've done. It I've done feature articles in 73 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:12,500 which I've taken a similar approach, but moving from, a 74 00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:15,000 magazine article to book is very different. 75 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,700 I have written two prior books for adult audiences, but those 76 00:04:20,700 --> 00:04:25,700 were quite different. My first book was not science 77 00:04:25,700 --> 00:04:29,100 focused, but it was about my travels with the wandering 78 00:04:29,100 --> 00:04:33,000 Shepherd and so some aspects of this were relevant and that, you 79 00:04:33,008 --> 00:04:36,200 know, I talked about the history and Blended things together but 80 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:40,700 a Book of this nature. I had never really done before. 81 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:42,700 What was super fascinating for me. 82 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:45,800 Because I mean, I'm big into the keto space. 83 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,200 So I've heard of, you know, the Warburg effect through ketogenic 84 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:50,500 research and things of that nature. 85 00:04:50,500 --> 00:04:53,600 But to really get the back story about Otto Warburg, as a 86 00:04:53,608 --> 00:04:56,100 personing, just like the time and environment that he was 87 00:04:56,100 --> 00:04:59,400 subjected to when all this was going down, it really added a 88 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,300 whole nother, dimension of storyline to everything that I 89 00:05:02,300 --> 00:05:05,100 had heard prior to that point. So it was, it was entertaining. 90 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:07,800 It was interesting informative, but Entertaining as well. 91 00:05:08,500 --> 00:05:10,600 Now thank you. You know that it's certainly my 92 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:15,400 goal at. You know, when I started out I 93 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,800 really you know I come across his name and an article probably 94 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,100 like you know you had or you know a lot of times when 95 00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:24,300 scientists give a top there's like one slide with a picture of 96 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:28,000 Warburg space and but I didn't know anything about him. 97 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,400 And I really just Googled him and I started to, you know, 98 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:36,000 learn about is time, you know, under the Nazi regime and 99 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,000 Wanting to read more and more because I was fascinated. 100 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,900 But if it's actually challenging because most of it's in German 101 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:46,400 and my German isn't so great. So you know that's how it's 102 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,900 probably the biggest obstacles. I wanted to learn as much as I 103 00:05:48,907 --> 00:05:50,500 could about were but it was hard. 104 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,100 So like with the research standpoints like how did you go 105 00:05:54,100 --> 00:05:57,900 about digging this deep into all the context I would imagine? 106 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,400 Most of the the information around Warburg is specific to 107 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,300 his you know influence on the scientific literature. 108 00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:09,000 Not so much this personal life. Yeah, yeah, it was it was very 109 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,300 challenging I had to, you know, as I mentioned before that, I 110 00:06:12,300 --> 00:06:15,100 don't, you know, I hadn't written a book quite like this 111 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:17,500 before. So I had to in some ways sort of 112 00:06:17,500 --> 00:06:22,500 teach myself along the way to become, you know, an archival 113 00:06:22,500 --> 00:06:26,100 researcher. And it, it was challenging. 114 00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:28,400 But, you know, I learned to sort of navigate these different 115 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:33,200 archives and fortunately for me, Warburg of though, you know, he 116 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,300 is all scientific work is in German, he Speak English 117 00:06:37,300 --> 00:06:39,700 fluently. And so a lot of the letters that 118 00:06:39,700 --> 00:06:44,600 I found were an English and others I needed help with in 119 00:06:44,608 --> 00:06:48,000 terms of translators. But I found that you know it's 120 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,700 letters are scattered in archives all over the world. 121 00:06:50,700 --> 00:06:53,600 I wasn't able to personally visit the vast majority of these 122 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,700 archives but you know it reach out to a place and ask them to 123 00:06:57,700 --> 00:06:59,800 search for Mandy. You know, these archivists are 124 00:06:59,808 --> 00:07:02,000 incredibly helpful they said be scanned images. 125 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:06,000 And so, you know, now you know, 20 years ago, I don't think I 126 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,000 Could have done something like this but now because 127 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,000 everything's online, you can really, you know, search the 128 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,700 world with the help of, you know, these archivists. 129 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:14,900 Hmm. Absolutely. 130 00:07:15,300 --> 00:07:18,100 So I'd love to kind of, I don't want to just eat a recap the 131 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:21,900 entire book, encourage people to go read the book themselves, but 132 00:07:22,100 --> 00:07:25,300 for the sake of painting, a clear picture here, you know, 133 00:07:25,308 --> 00:07:28,500 like in the in the keto space, where I'm pretty much it will it 134 00:07:28,500 --> 00:07:33,000 will involved the the general consensus or you know, topic 135 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,500 very high-level topic that people who are around as it 136 00:07:35,508 --> 00:07:38,900 relates to Quito and cancer is that some of the doesn't really 137 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:41,700 know much of anything will oftentimes say, you know, cancer 138 00:07:41,700 --> 00:07:44,600 feeds off of sugar. There's a damaged mitochondria 139 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,700 within cancer cells and you're not going to really be able to 140 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,500 fuel cancer growth if there's not an abundance of sugar or 141 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:53,000 carbohydrates. And people start, you know, here 142 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,100 that high level View and they start diving deeper and that's 143 00:07:55,100 --> 00:07:58,200 when they discover Warburg and here at the Warburg effect. 144 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,000 So just to kind of continue that conversation because you kind of 145 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,000 dive into basically your book and and kind of a synopsis of 146 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,300 What this really all stemmed from sure. 147 00:08:09,500 --> 00:08:13,800 So, you know, really all begins in 1923. 148 00:08:14,100 --> 00:08:17,100 That's the year. Otto Warburg the scientist, 149 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,600 who's at the center of my book makes this, you know, 150 00:08:19,900 --> 00:08:23,800 fascinating discovery which is that cancer cells take up a lot 151 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,200 of glucose and fermented you know, meaning that instead of 152 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,000 burning it all with oxygen and the mitochondria which is a very 153 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,400 efficient process and a great way for a cell to do in generate 154 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,700 energy and Cancer cells, take up all that glucose and ferment 155 00:08:39,700 --> 00:08:42,700 much of it, which is, you know, I use the analogy of a backup 156 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:45,800 generator in the book, they break the glucose down quickly 157 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,100 and you know, send most of it out of the cell in the form of 158 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:52,200 lactic acid. It's, you know, fermentation is 159 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,800 the same process that, you know, bacteria and microorganisms use. 160 00:08:58,500 --> 00:09:01,200 That gives us, you know, so many of our favorite foods from, you 161 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,500 know, beer bread and wine, and cheese. 162 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,000 So the cancer cells were doing this You know, it was pretty 163 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,100 surprising for a few reasons. One, it was only years earlier 164 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:12,800 that scientists had understood that human cells could do this 165 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:14,500 at all. Now we know that, you know, when 166 00:09:14,500 --> 00:09:18,000 you exercise intensely, you know, produce lactic acid, but 167 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,900 it was all new in the 1920s, but you would think that cancer 168 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:23,500 cells will be the last cells to do this. 169 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:25,500 Because, you know, they need to grow. 170 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:29,000 They need a lot of energy and warmer when he set out to study 171 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,600 this he assumed against ourselves would take up more 172 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,100 oxygen and do more respiration, you know, burning glucose with 173 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:36,600 oxygen. So the fact that They were doing 174 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,800 it less, and instead turning the fermentation was very strange. 175 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,500 And, you know, to this day is is debated. 176 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:45,700 Why cancer cells through this, what advantage does it? 177 00:09:45,708 --> 00:09:49,700 Give the cancer cell. So that's kind of the starting 178 00:09:49,700 --> 00:09:52,000 point for the scientific investigation. 179 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:58,500 And then, in my book, I tried to sort of marry that story to, you 180 00:09:58,500 --> 00:10:03,500 know, a related story which is why cancer is becoming such a 181 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:06,000 common, you know, why it became such a common disease. 182 00:10:06,100 --> 00:10:08,800 He's beginning in the 19th century and continuing 183 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:14,400 throughout the 20th century and I, you know, try to weave these 184 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,100 narratives together in the end by suggesting that, you know, 185 00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:21,700 the answer to both puzzles, may actually be insulin resistance 186 00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:26,000 and elevated insulin, that the insulin seems to be driving a 187 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,500 lot of this Warburg metabolism. And, you know, insulin and 188 00:10:30,900 --> 00:10:33,900 elevated. Insulin might also explain sort 189 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:38,500 of the rise of cancer and In the late 19th century and would 190 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,900 begin to explain why cancer has sort of you know clustered 191 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:47,700 together with obesity and diabetes beginning in the late 192 00:10:47,700 --> 00:10:50,000 19th century and continuing to this day. 193 00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:53,300 So that's a lot. We can go into more detail but 194 00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:54,700 that's kind of the very big picture. 195 00:10:54,900 --> 00:10:57,300 Yeah. I mean it is very fascinating to 196 00:10:57,300 --> 00:10:59,600 hear that so much this research was done. 197 00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:02,700 I mean the reason Otto Warburg it could be argued probably 198 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:06,500 survive to do this research. That has shaped a lot of It is 199 00:11:06,500 --> 00:11:10,400 what modern science agrees upon today is because of Hitler's 200 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,100 relationship with cancer and his motivation to keep Otto, Warburg 201 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:17,800 alive and working. Yeah, yeah, that really 202 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,300 fascinated me. So, you know, Warburg by 1933 203 00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:24,800 when the Nazis came to power where Berg is really at the top 204 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,600 of the scientific World. He's already won. 205 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,700 The Nobel Prize for his work on respiration. 206 00:11:28,700 --> 00:11:30,900 He's already made this, you know, extraordinary discovery 207 00:11:30,900 --> 00:11:34,800 about cancer. So in 1933, many scientists who 208 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,500 are in his position, You know, flee Germany but Warburg who has 209 00:11:39,700 --> 00:11:42,900 two Jewish grandparents. So he's considered a Jew by the 210 00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:45,800 Nazis and lives openly with a male partner. 211 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,200 So, yeah, I wouldn't say that he was out, but he was pretty 212 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,200 clear. That gate, anybody who cared to 213 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,700 pay attention. So he should have been, you 214 00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:57,500 know, sort of the most at risk in terms of Nazi Germany and 215 00:11:57,500 --> 00:12:00,500 yet, despite provoking the Nazis again and again. 216 00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:03,700 And even, you know, in some instances, he chasing people out 217 00:12:03,700 --> 00:12:06,000 of his Institute who were harassing him. 218 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:09,000 And the Nazis ultimately protected him. 219 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,600 And I do think it's because of his cancer research. 220 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,800 You know what I learned is that many of the top Nazi is not just 221 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,900 hit there, but many of them were absolutely terrified of cancer 222 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,000 and you know, fixated on the disease but Hitler more so than 223 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:27,700 anybody probably because his mother had died of breast cancer 224 00:12:27,700 --> 00:12:33,900 and Also, because he was a hypochondriac, but yeah. 225 00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:37,400 So I think that whatever was protected the end because of his 226 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,200 cancer research and you know, he did make extraordinary 227 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:46,400 contributions, you know, so it, it's a very strange story. 228 00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:49,300 Yeah, it's interesting. I didn't know half the stuff 229 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:51,600 that you're running about Hitler with regard to like, I didn't 230 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,800 know that about his mother. I didn't know that he was pretty 231 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,900 much vegan I guess you could say, right? 232 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,900 yeah, I would say, you know, he didn't always stick to it but 233 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:06,200 for he definitely believes strongly and vegetarianism and 234 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:09,700 Aspired to be vegetarian all the time. 235 00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:12,400 Occasionally you know what, eat some animal products. 236 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,500 But he was a big believer and sort of a raw vegetarian diets 237 00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:21,500 as the sort of solution to all health problems and that was 238 00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:24,200 mainly. Because at that time, the point 239 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,900 the finger was pointed at red meat for being the predominant 240 00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:31,300 cause for cancer. Well, I mean some of that was 241 00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:35,800 around already but I think in the case of Hitler made the top 242 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:40,100 Nazis, it had less. To do with the associations 243 00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:46,900 between meat and cancer and more to do with the idea that, you 244 00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:49,600 know, the meat was impure. You know, there's this one 245 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,000 historian who was very, who had a very big influence on my work 246 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,900 and thinking, is named Robert Proctor. 247 00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:59,300 And he talked about the entire Nazi project being, you know, 248 00:13:59,300 --> 00:14:03,100 sort of a delusional state where they wanted to be, you know, 249 00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:07,300 purify everything, the pure Aryan race and anything that was 250 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:10,400 considered Nerd impure, you know, was part of their project 251 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,200 was to rid of it. So meat was impure Jews wear a, 252 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,500 and ultimately their war on cancer was also you know, 253 00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:18,900 diseases are a. So all the, all these things are 254 00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:20,200 linked together. It is true. 255 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,100 That already there was, you know, some scientific discussion 256 00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:26,300 about beaten cancer. But a lot of the science that I 257 00:14:26,308 --> 00:14:28,200 don't think actually, it's very strong. 258 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,500 These correlations came, a little later. 259 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:32,200 Got you? I got you. 260 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,800 I didn't know that about his interest for, I guess, 261 00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:37,500 obsessiveness towards sugar to it. 262 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:40,000 See He was all about it consuming as much sugar as 263 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,200 possible. Yeah, yeah. 264 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,200 He was. I don't know that I've ever 265 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,200 heard of a person who is more addicted to Sugar, you know, I 266 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,100 like to point out that I am by no means suggesting that sugar 267 00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:54,300 is the explanation for his horrific Behavior. 268 00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:57,200 But it's just an interesting historical point in the context 269 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,800 of this discussion, that he was a sugar addict and he took other 270 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,600 drugs to, you know, he was a Madman. 271 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:09,500 So, you know, he did something to, you know, And same degree. 272 00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:12,400 But yeah, the accounts of beyond the amount of deserve he would 273 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,100 eat in a day. It's unheard of the cool thing 274 00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:17,600 about what you're doing with this book is that and I would 275 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,700 imagine in order to write something this detail oriented, 276 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,800 you have to really dive into everything that these people 277 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,600 were doing throughout their day to night, take into account, the 278 00:15:26,608 --> 00:15:29,300 environmental factors are play and then try and understand in 279 00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:31,700 the sect why they made the decisions they did. 280 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,300 I mean as you were writing about Otto it's like you have pretty 281 00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:37,500 good understanding of how this person thinks. 282 00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:40,800 Yeah, yeah. What I thank you. 283 00:15:40,808 --> 00:15:43,000 I'm glad it comes out that way. You know. 284 00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:46,900 One thing that was very lucky is that although he didn't do a lot 285 00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:51,700 of personal writing his sister loto is a very talented writer 286 00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:55,100 and diarist and so she recorded you know lots of their 287 00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:59,600 conversations and reflection. So you know her diary was 288 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,000 probably my most important source for a lot of this. 289 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,200 So I was lucky to have that but at the same time I was actually 290 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,900 a frustrating at times that Warburg I didn't, you know, 291 00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:14,000 often times I would find like a stack of his letters, but he 292 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,700 would immediately start talking about science. 293 00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:17,500 You know, a lot of times he didn't write about himself. 294 00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:20,000 So I had to kind of piece it together from various sources, 295 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,400 but because he was such a genius that many people who met him, 296 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,600 what else do, right? You know, first-hand accounts of 297 00:16:25,608 --> 00:16:28,200 the meeting. So I was able to gather a lot of 298 00:16:28,208 --> 00:16:30,200 those accounts and sort of piece them together. 299 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,200 It seemed like a lot of his personality was was I mean, as 300 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,100 we are, all are largely impacted by our Pants. 301 00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:41,600 And it seems like he was probably as I don't know what 302 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,800 word, you use to describe me and seemed kind of like, overly 303 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,900 cocky, you know. Just just convinced that his way 304 00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:51,000 or no way. Basically, I'm assuming large 305 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,000 large, part of, that was directly related to his success. 306 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,700 The successes father had seen in his upbringing. 307 00:16:57,500 --> 00:16:59,300 Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. 308 00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:04,200 You know, he is Father Emil Warburg was a very celebrated 309 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:09,900 physicist close friend of Einstein and Many other famous 310 00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:14,300 German scientists, including Max, Planck, and really all the 311 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:17,700 leading German mines of the time where people that came in and 312 00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:19,400 out of four bricks house as father. 313 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,099 When you know, it's like chamber music, but with Einstein and 314 00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:24,200 others. So, whatever grows up in this 315 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,099 home, that is filled by a future Nobel Prize winners. 316 00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:33,200 You know, the Nobel prizes were only instituted 1900, but, you 317 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,800 know, he grows up, you know, basically assuming that he's 318 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,800 going to be a great scientist. Just like, you know, all the 319 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,700 people in his childhood home and, you know, he's brilliant, 320 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:46,300 so it's you know, it's a somewhat reasonable expectation. 321 00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:49,500 He grows up in a German Society where science really is the 322 00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:52,000 highest ideal. This is a time when Germany is 323 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,900 truly at the top of the scientific world. 324 00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:57,000 And, you know, wherever it wants that, he pitied anybody who 325 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,900 didn't grow up to be a scientist, they couldn't imagine 326 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:01,900 it. I mean he was just entirely 327 00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:04,700 devoted to his science in a way that, you know, I don't even 328 00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:06,500 think it was possible and remark. 329 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,100 So, So so yeah, but in better, in addition to all that, you 330 00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:14,100 know, some of it was just his inborn, you know. 331 00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:16,100 Arrogance, you know, I don't some of it. 332 00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:20,300 He was just, you know, just incredibly arrogant human being 333 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:25,200 that, you know, was a weakness, of course, in terms of having to 334 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,500 deal with him and other things. But at times was actually a 335 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:32,200 strength, I think in terms of his science, particularly when 336 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,700 he was younger, when he was doing really bold work and 337 00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:39,600 asking both questions that others who Less content might 338 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,300 not have taken on and, you know, in remarkably, when oftentimes, 339 00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:46,200 he would arrive at a question and not actually have the proper 340 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,900 scientific tool to investigate, he would just, you know, all 341 00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:50,900 right. I'll build that tool. 342 00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:53,800 So she actually, you know, engineer and a number of really 343 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,100 important scientific tools which change science in many ways. 344 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,700 Yeah, it's adorable to see his level of commitment to his work 345 00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:02,200 because, I mean, as you said, there's not a whole lot of 346 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,100 people that are seemingly doing that's with any, you know, genre 347 00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:07,600 these days. But when you look back in 348 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,800 history, other people. That Make History are the ones 349 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,800 that seemingly just commit themselves. 350 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,100 Wholeheartedly day in day out. Don't take a break from it 351 00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:18,100 because that is what defines them? 352 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,700 And I would say that's definitely the case with auto 353 00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:22,900 here. Yeah, absolutely. 354 00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:25,500 I would it feel bad when I was reading these accounts of the 355 00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:28,300 people that worked in his lab because they were also am by our 356 00:19:28,300 --> 00:19:29,900 standards. They were also probably 357 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,300 extraordinarily, you know, dedicated and hardworking. 358 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:35,800 But, you know, he was, he couldn't understand why they 359 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,300 needed even one day off, you know, let alone two for a week. 360 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:44,900 And you know, and his his father was, you know, similar and you 361 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:48,600 know, I read accounts of people who studied under his father 362 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,000 would be working at midnight. And, you know, if they weren't 363 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,600 there was like, you know what's going on? 364 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,400 When you're doing your research at midnight, it was a period in 365 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,500 German history that you know, I don't know that will ever exist 366 00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:04,700 again that just extraordinary dedication to science. 367 00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:10,600 And you know, they it it led to Two extraordinary discoveries in 368 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,100 many different fields. So, you know, we're lucky, it's 369 00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:17,800 the dedication existed and it seemed like like his passion 370 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,700 wasn't even so much. The the cancer research I mean, 371 00:20:20,900 --> 00:20:23,400 photosynthesis was his kind of stick, it seemed. 372 00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:26,900 Yeah. I mean, he his three main areas 373 00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:30,600 were respiration, unicellular, breathing, photosynthesis, and 374 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,300 cancer. And you know, in his mind they 375 00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:37,900 were all fundamentally linked to you know, study of cellular 376 00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:44,200 energy So he saw it is all the same, but it happens to be that 377 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,600 he got into a huge Feud about photosynthesis. 378 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,900 So and his last decades, he spent a lot of time, you know, 379 00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:54,000 arguing with people about photosynthesis but I do think 380 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,700 ultimately his greatest contributions were in cancer and 381 00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:59,800 cellular breathing. Yeah, yeah. 382 00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:06,000 What do you think with regard to, like his personal life and 383 00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:08,300 his partner? Like, how did all that come to 384 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,400 Be and it wasn't a whole lot of back story on that. 385 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,200 As far as it kind of started off talking about like, was there, 386 00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:15,600 did you find anything in your research that kind of paved the 387 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:21,600 way for that? Well, you know, so he was pretty 388 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:27,400 clearly homosexual, I think, you know from you know, early in 389 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,800 life when he meets, you know, he goes into World War 1. 390 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:35,600 When he returns, this man comes to work in his house. 391 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:40,400 As, you know, at the time, the phrase used at the time was like 392 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,100 a houseboy, you're like, a manservant type of thing and 393 00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:47,200 it's, you know, they spend the rest of their life together. 394 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,400 Back together at all times. It's very clearly, a loving 395 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,300 relationship. And I think that, you know, 396 00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:57,800 Warburg was actually at the time, it was, you could not be 397 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:02,000 openly gay and German least in his sector of German society. 398 00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:06,000 And you know, Warburg was quite open about it. 399 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,800 Given given the times, you know, and he would sometimes like be 400 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,700 invited to give a talk somewhere and he would say, you know, only 401 00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:16,700 do it if you invite my partner, you know, Jakob lies hidden 402 00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:19,300 refer to them as It's partner, but point, you know, he was open 403 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:21,300 about doing everything with him. When he got letters from 404 00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:23,900 friends, they would, you know, talk about Heist and say, you 405 00:22:23,908 --> 00:22:28,100 know, send my regards. So, you know, it was in the same 406 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:31,100 way that, you know, when the Nazis came into power and 407 00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:34,000 started to harass him, he refused to be budged. 408 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:39,100 You know that same stubbornness, you know, was, you know, a great 409 00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:41,800 credit to him when it came. I think to his homosexuality 410 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,000 that he wasn't going to let people sort of scare him out of 411 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,200 it, so yeah, it's Pretty remarkable. 412 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,900 You know, he was not only a gay Jew, but, you know, he his last 413 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:53,500 name. Whatever was a famous Jewish 414 00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:56,000 name. So, on the surface at least, you 415 00:22:56,008 --> 00:23:00,100 know, he had every reason to be worried about the Nazi threat. 416 00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:02,600 Yeah. I mean, when you stop and like 417 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,900 pure back the layers on all the things that are going against 418 00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:07,700 him as far as his likelihood of surviving in Nazi Germany, at 419 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:09,300 that time. He's pretty much got all the 420 00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:12,700 cars stacked against them mean his his sexual preference his 421 00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:16,700 name and the fact that he is Jewish and yeah, he's pretty 422 00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:19,700 much a Allowed free rein up until the very end there. 423 00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:23,800 Yeah I mean worst of all for him maybe just his behavior you know 424 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:24,500 even. Yeah. 425 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,500 Baby were so outrageous. You know, like this Nazi Customs 426 00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:33,000 official comes to his, you know, inspect his laboratory and to 427 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,500 ask him to sign, you know, a declaration of Aryan descent. 428 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:38,500 That's what I write about in the beginning of the book and 429 00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:42,500 Warburg, not only kicks the guy out, but then sends you a letter 430 00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:45,700 to the authorities, claiming that the guy was unclean and, 431 00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:49,200 you know, smelled bad. He really did everything he 432 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,100 could to provoke them at one point. 433 00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:54,200 You know, they came and asked some of his employees to 434 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,900 participate in a Nazi March and Warburg City, would burn down 435 00:23:56,900 --> 00:24:00,400 his Institute before he allowed it, you refuse to give the Nazi 436 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,700 salute, he wouldn't put up the Nazi flag so you know, the one 437 00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:09,500 hand it kind of made him, you know, very likeable and kind of 438 00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:11,500 a hero. But on the other hand he was so 439 00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:13,300 arrogant. That the more I dug into the 440 00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:17,400 research and read about him. I realized that, you know, as 441 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,700 much as I admire that it wasn't because he was a great champion 442 00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:23,200 of Human Rights so much as he just couldn't stand that, 443 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,100 anybody interfering with him, you know, he if they call them 444 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:28,600 the Kaiser of dalam the neighborhood that he lived and 445 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,500 you know he thought of himself as as an emperor and he wasn't 446 00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:34,600 going to let these Nazi thugs as he called them interfere with 447 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,900 his work. When you when you started 448 00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:40,100 writing this book and you had this this early idea of what he 449 00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:42,100 may have been like what you would have hoped, he would be 450 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:44,400 like and then you start uncovering all this stuff about 451 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,700 his personality. Probably not being, you know, 452 00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:51,200 the greatest Did you steal that you feel more compelled to write 453 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,700 that story? Are you kind of like let down in 454 00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:56,000 a sense? Yeah, it's really interesting 455 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,600 question you know I think it went back and forth you know 456 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,500 some days I would be writing about him standing up to Nazis 457 00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:07,500 and I feel good about him and other days I'd be reading about, 458 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,700 you know him you know, at the end of the war, some of his 459 00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:14,400 loyal and well it's complicated but basically you know, some of 460 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,800 his employees You were sent to the front lines at the end of 461 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,200 the war and he had a chance to protect them and he didn't 462 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,100 because he was, you know, thought that they had betrayed 463 00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:26,400 him or what not. But, so there were, you know, 464 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,400 some really dark moments in his story and I would feel down 465 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,100 about him. But, you know, at the end of the 466 00:25:34,100 --> 00:25:38,200 day, I guess I didn't feel like it, you know, it was my job to 467 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,800 choose one side or the other but just to portray both sides of 468 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,400 him and and to try to tell it as honestly, as I could, you know, 469 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,200 would be nice. If he had been a slightly more 470 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:55,500 likeable person, I, you know, I was somewhat sympathetic to him, 471 00:25:55,500 --> 00:26:00,000 you know, one of his sort of big crimes was not crimes but, you 472 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,600 know, one of the black records on his name if you will, is that 473 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,900 he chose to stay in Nazi Germany and the more I read about his 474 00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:09,200 life, the more I began to understand why he did that and 475 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,000 how he had misunderstood the Nazi threat. 476 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,400 So I tried to look at it somewhat sympathetically at 477 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,600 times, you know. Couldn't even know his arrogance 478 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,200 was, you know, offensive and outrageous at times I couldn't 479 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,800 help but find it comment you know he was a great eccentric 480 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,400 and I've always been drawn to those kind of people. 481 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,200 So I think I like him about as much as someone could give him 482 00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:34,500 the evidence but you know there's no question that he was 483 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,300 in many ways a complete jerk. Yeah. 484 00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:41,900 Well he's made a pretty significant contribution for 485 00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:44,300 sure. It's interesting that all of his 486 00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:48,500 work on rest. Operation was in the Limelight 487 00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:52,200 and then kind of faded for quite some time as the tension turned 488 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,800 towards genetics and then here recently it seems that that's 489 00:26:56,900 --> 00:27:00,100 kind of become much more intertwined than he's gotten 490 00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:02,000 more Center Stage here as of late. 491 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,000 Yeah yeah it's been this really incredible rediscovery of his 492 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,600 cancer where I mean the first incredible part of my mind is 493 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,100 how quickly it disappeared in the post-war period, you know, 494 00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:20,900 by the late Late 20th century in the 80s and 90s. 495 00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:24,000 Yeah, he's like vanished, you not mentioned in textbooks, not 496 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,600 mentioned in famous, scientific papers in that. 497 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,000 It's really only in the late 90s where he's read, has 498 00:27:32,300 --> 00:27:35,900 rediscovered again. But metabolism was thought of as 499 00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:38,700 you know old world science you know biochemistry at all been 500 00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:42,400 figured out and do cool stuff with the molecular biology and 501 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,700 tracing mutations to these signaling pathways Ways and 502 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:49,300 Warburg just seemed to relic of a different era. 503 00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:53,300 So it was really, you know, pretty remarkable thing that he 504 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,000 was, you know, it made such an important Discovery. 505 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,800 And yet it was completely lost and part of the reason, it's so 506 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,500 amazing. I think, is that even as this 507 00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:04,600 was happening. And there was this emergence of 508 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,800 this new diagnostic technique, the Pet Scan, which basically 509 00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:12,400 just looks at where glucose is being taken up in the body and 510 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,500 that's, you know, how you diagnose cancer. 511 00:28:14,900 --> 00:28:19,200 So, you know, in a way - all right, in the face and yet in 512 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,800 the scientific world it was completely lost in its now come 513 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,500 back of course in a major way. That's was so humbling about it. 514 00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:29,700 Like so many people in, you know, today's day and age. 515 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,700 They look at the scientific literature out there and they 516 00:28:31,700 --> 00:28:34,100 just they speak. So confidently as to what they 517 00:28:34,100 --> 00:28:35,900 know in their heart of hearts to be true. 518 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,300 But then like, for me, I could feel that way. 519 00:28:38,300 --> 00:28:41,300 But then I go and I read a book like yours and it's like wow 520 00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:45,100 what if we're just in that era between major breakthroughs and 521 00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:48,100 we're just all, you know, So assuming that we know all when 522 00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:50,700 in reality we're missing a huge piece of the puzzle that's 523 00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:52,800 already been discovered in the past were not giving it the 524 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,300 credit that's do. Yeah, yeah. 525 00:28:55,300 --> 00:29:01,000 No I mean there is no question that you know, that that we're 526 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,900 always missing something and also a third of these pendulum 527 00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:06,800 swing of yeah they'll be an interest in one thing and then 528 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,500 it'll swing back to the other thing and it's just, you know, I 529 00:29:10,508 --> 00:29:14,000 guess hard for humans or scientific communities to look 530 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,300 at the big picture and rather than sort of Focusing in on 531 00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:19,000 whatever. The exciting thing is at the 532 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,100 moment. But you know it's a shame 533 00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:26,400 because you know, I do think, you know, we have, in my 534 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:31,300 opinion, we have missed, you know, one big thing which is, 535 00:29:31,300 --> 00:29:33,700 you know, the insulin story, which you know, connects to the 536 00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:36,900 Warburg story but you know, that's part of why. 537 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,000 You know, I wrote this post, I want to explore the science of 538 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,700 insulin and cancer which I think you know relates to warburg's, 539 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,600 metabolism discoveries in cancer. 540 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,400 That's another topic man. There's so much there's so much 541 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,100 controversy right now especially with in the nutritional science 542 00:29:51,100 --> 00:29:54,900 space about, you know, the driving factor for obesity. 543 00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:57,700 Whether it's hormone-related and insulin or more. 544 00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:00,200 So, just a excess of caloric consumption. 545 00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:04,200 And it's, it's hard to, you know, pick and choose any one 546 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,900 factor and say, with utmost degree of certainty that it's 547 00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:09,600 this or that I feel like it's all got to be intertwined in 548 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:15,100 some form or fashion. yeah, there's a lot of You know, I 549 00:30:15,108 --> 00:30:19,000 think, you know, there's a lot of debate I think between, you 550 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,800 know, the precise mechanism but I think you know, even even 551 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,700 those people that question what they call a carbohydrate insulin 552 00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:31,600 while I think even the people that, you know, prefer these 553 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,800 more standard commonly accepted model of, you know, Cal 554 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:40,000 determining obesity, you know, I think they've integrated insulin 555 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,700 into their model as well. It just kind of put less 556 00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:47,100 emphasis on it, but You know, I think that even a part from the 557 00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:51,500 Obesity story, I think the science of insulin in cancer, 558 00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:54,100 you know, it's pretty strong even if you don't think that 559 00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:59,400 insulin is the key driver of obesity, you know, as I my 560 00:30:59,700 --> 00:31:02,200 personal thought, you know, based on the science. 561 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,900 And I certainly agree with you. That one shouldn't speak with 562 00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:08,600 too much certainty about about any of this stuff, because its 563 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,400 controversial. But what I came away with from 564 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,200 based on my research is you know, Thinking that that insulin 565 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,700 is playing a key role in driving obesity and cancer. 566 00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:22,900 A lot of people think that, you know, obesity is causing a 567 00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:24,600 Cancer and it certainly playing a role. 568 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,800 But I think that the insulin is probably Dragon cancer 569 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,800 independent to the Obesity but it just happens to because both, 570 00:31:32,300 --> 00:31:35,600 you know, for me it's I mean I've been following a ketogenic 571 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,700 diet now for 67 years or so, and for me, it's just it's just 572 00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:42,500 easy, it's sustainable. And it keeps the whole, you 573 00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:44,300 know, blood sugar regulation and insolence. 574 00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:47,800 Already questioned out of the equation like I just know it's 575 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,900 all solid and I feel like, you know, I would never suggest that 576 00:31:51,908 --> 00:31:55,100 anybody has to be following a ketogenic approach to avoid 577 00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:58,800 cancer or obesity by any means. But I feel like it definitely 578 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,500 makes hedging the bed so to speak much easier. 579 00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:07,300 Yeah the way I the way I think about it is that you know if you 580 00:32:07,300 --> 00:32:12,300 are insulin resistant and have elevated insulin which you know, 581 00:32:12,300 --> 00:32:16,200 unfortunately most of us have Happy in America and I certainly 582 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:21,200 did at one point in my life then it just makes sense to to keep, 583 00:32:21,300 --> 00:32:25,000 you know, to follow a diet that will get your insulin lower. 584 00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:26,800 You know, Quito is one way to do that. 585 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,500 Maybe you can find another way to do it. 586 00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:32,700 Maybe, you know it's time restricted eating or, you know, 587 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,100 something else but I think you've got to get the insulin 588 00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:38,200 lower if you are insulin resistant and for me as well you 589 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,900 know, they'll carve Quito is just an easy way to do it. 590 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:46,200 Totally how is your book been? To by mainstream public. 591 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,800 I mean for me in mine, you know, Niche Circle. 592 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,200 It seems like it took off like wildfire. 593 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,200 I posted about it on my newsletter, I've had several 594 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,400 people mentioned on Instagram and it seems to be very well 595 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,700 received within the the low-carb space. 596 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,200 But as far as like the general population goes, what kind of 597 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,400 feedback have you gotten? Yes, it's a good question. 598 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,500 I yeah, definitely I've noticed and been incredibly grateful for 599 00:33:12,500 --> 00:33:14,900 the fact that, you know, a lot of people in the low carb 600 00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:19,400 Community have responded positively to it and have, you 601 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,200 know, put messages out on social media. 602 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:28,500 So I hope that I hope that's spreading to, you know, people 603 00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:30,500 that aren't interested in nutrition. 604 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,800 You know, some of the most rewarding feedback I've gotten 605 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,300 from people. You know, nothing about any of 606 00:33:36,300 --> 00:33:39,300 these subjects and have no interest in, just read the book 607 00:33:39,300 --> 00:33:41,600 and really liked it. And, you know, I think my 608 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,600 favorite was from a cancer scientist who's not into any of 609 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,300 this stuff, but emailed me and said, yeah, after you finish the 610 00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:52,500 book, he decided not to eat the carrot cake, that was sitting on 611 00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:55,100 a table. So I really like that response, 612 00:33:55,100 --> 00:34:04,300 but I think that, you know, in terms of nobody is, Nobody is 613 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:06,200 attacked me, which it, which is nice. 614 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,800 Ah, you know, that sometimes online on Twitter, people have 615 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:16,000 actually been a little concerned that I'm suggesting that, you 616 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,900 know, ketogenic diet is going to cure cancer. 617 00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:21,300 Which I of course don't do and I don't believe that ketogenic 618 00:34:21,300 --> 00:34:23,199 diet is a miracle cure for cancer. 619 00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:27,600 I think that, you know, it has, you know, we need more research 620 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,199 and then it has potential to be used in conjunction with other 621 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:35,800 therapies and maybe an It addition to the other therapies 622 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,199 but that's the one thing that, you know, if face some negative 623 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:43,699 feedback about but my book is actually focused on prevention 624 00:34:43,699 --> 00:34:50,900 as I point out to these people but you know I hope that you 625 00:34:50,900 --> 00:34:55,900 know the book will reach a right a wider audience. 626 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,400 I think it's selling pretty well I actually don't know the 627 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:00,700 numbers. I've been afraid to ask the 628 00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:03,800 publisher. I figure I should stay You know, 629 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,900 keep my head down and keep working to spread the word about 630 00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:10,200 it, and I hope people will enjoy it. 631 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,500 I feel overall I've been very lucky but to get such a nice 632 00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:15,800 response. Well, I definitely would not 633 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,900 think that it did. It's written in a way that is 634 00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:20,900 biased in favor of the kids drink that. 635 00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:23,100 I mean, I think you only mentioned the ketogenic diet, 636 00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:25,200 just a handful of times throughout the whole book like 637 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:27,700 it was not the Highlight by any means. 638 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,600 It just kind of worked well in tandem based off of the methods 639 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,400 and protocols. That That Otto Warburg was 640 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,400 discovering throughout the throughout the book. 641 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,700 Yeah. So, you know, I personally 642 00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:42,700 follow a ketogenic diet then. Yeah, I do I think, you know, I 643 00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:46,100 think I only mentioned it once or twice in the book but you 644 00:35:46,100 --> 00:35:50,100 know if you are familiar with the you know the book clearly 645 00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:53,100 implicates elevated insulin. So if you're familiar with the 646 00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:55,200 ketogenic diet, then you would think okay? 647 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,900 Well therefore ketogenic diet will help me lower my insulin, 648 00:35:58,900 --> 00:36:02,600 I'll do that, but I do not, you know, it's not a prescriptive 649 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,800 book you I just try to present the evidence. 650 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,200 I'm a journalist, I'm not a doctor and then, you know, 651 00:36:07,207 --> 00:36:10,900 people can take away from it what they want, but I think it 652 00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:12,900 is. You know, if you follow the 653 00:36:12,900 --> 00:36:18,000 logic, it does make sense that Kita would be a sensible plan to 654 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,300 lower your insulin or certainly at the very least to avoid you 655 00:36:21,300 --> 00:36:23,600 know, sugar soup. When I say sugar, I mean Sue 656 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:28,800 proce as opposed secretly glucans 100%. 657 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,500 I'm curious, I want to kind of switch the gears from Auto in 658 00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:33,200 and kind of ask you a few personal questions. 659 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,000 I was here, but I admire people that do great work and I kind of 660 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,200 like to tease out, how they do that, great work. 661 00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:44,800 So for you being an author, what is, what is your work for look? 662 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,600 Like what is, what is a day in the life of Sam? 663 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:48,900 Apple. Look like, as far as how you 664 00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:51,400 maintain productivity, how long it take you to write this book 665 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,000 specifically sure. Yeah, it took me five years to 666 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,600 write this book and really, you know, the year before that I was 667 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,700 working on a magazine article that led to the book. 668 00:37:01,700 --> 00:37:07,300 So really six years Years of work, and it was not not easy. 669 00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:12,100 By any means, you know, I'd like to say, I'm one of these authors 670 00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:15,700 that can just sit down and write all day without stopping, but 671 00:37:16,700 --> 00:37:22,100 I'm get burned out after like, three or four hours of writing 672 00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:29,500 and that's on a good day. So, you know, one thing that was 673 00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:32,100 nice for me is that, you know, I can't write for three or four 674 00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:33,600 hours, you know, more than three or Hours. 675 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,500 But I still have some of the mental energy to do research and 676 00:37:37,500 --> 00:37:40,900 other hours. And, you know, I also teach 677 00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:44,800 writing so that doesn't, you know, use the same sort of 678 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,600 mental energy that the writing does. 679 00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:53,200 But you know, I was lucky in a lot of ways that I didn't, you 680 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,400 know, this book took tremendous amount of my time and I didn't 681 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,400 have a heavy teaching load for a number of the years when I was 682 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,300 working on it. So I was in a pretty lucky A 683 00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:08,800 situation but, you know, part of it was, you know, just 684 00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:12,700 eventually realizing that, you know, I had to, you know, 685 00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:16,700 develop better working habits and doing, you know, things like 686 00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:20,000 a lot of people do like you know I got an app that blocked the 687 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,700 internet and you know I would often work at cafes away from 688 00:38:24,700 --> 00:38:27,400 home where you know, was far enough away that I couldn't just 689 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,100 go home. If I got tired, you know, I 690 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,200 tried to, you know, set up little things that would make me 691 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,900 more discipline but There's also, you know, I had a contract 692 00:38:37,900 --> 00:38:41,800 for the book, so I had a deadline and nothing makes fun 693 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,600 more discipline than having a deadline. 694 00:38:45,100 --> 00:38:49,000 You know, when you write a nonfiction book, usually submit 695 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,200 a proposal or a couple chapters and then you get it, you know, 696 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,400 an advance payment, then you have to write the book. 697 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,700 So I wasn't going to get paid, or I would have to actually 698 00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:02,000 return the money if I didn't write the book so that helps. 699 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,200 But if you write a novel, you often have to write the whole 700 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,600 thing at the beginning, and then just turn it over. 701 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,000 So that in a way, to take season, even more dedication 702 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,400 because you don't even have the knowledge that it's going to be 703 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:16,700 published. But yeah, you just, you know, 704 00:39:16,700 --> 00:39:20,800 the advice that I read from another writer, Larry Brown, who 705 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,400 I really like, was he you just got to keep your ass in the 706 00:39:23,408 --> 00:39:26,900 chair. So and I learned to do that, 707 00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:31,800 it's not always easy. But yeah, my my my work day is 708 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,700 not very exciting sitting that. Table, you know typing it's 709 00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:37,900 super impressive though man. Like I've been in the middle of 710 00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:42,400 writing a book for the past. I'm going on two years now and 711 00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:46,500 it'll all commit to writing, no less than 500 words for a day 712 00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:49,000 and I'll do that for, you know, several months at a time, I'll 713 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,400 get a massive chunk of text written and then I'll take a 714 00:39:52,408 --> 00:39:54,700 break from that. Then I'll do a lot of proofing 715 00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:58,500 on that that is already written but it's impressive man. 716 00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:01,900 Like people who have never written a book like to for you 717 00:40:01,900 --> 00:40:04,500 specifically taking five. Five six years to write this one 718 00:40:04,700 --> 00:40:07,700 and the amount of research and discipline towards just honing 719 00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:10,800 in on that craft every single day moving the needle forward 720 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,800 just bit by bit. I mean that's like anything in 721 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,500 life. That requires extreme discipline 722 00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:18,300 over an extremely long period of time. 723 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,600 Impresses the hell out of me. Well thank you. 724 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:27,200 Yeah I appreciate that. And you know I thought you know, 725 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,800 wondered that you're as I understand it pretty serious 726 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,100 weight lifter, bodybuilders. That is that correct? 727 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,500 Yes, sir. Yeah sighing. 728 00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:39,500 Yeah, I thought about that and in terms of discipline as well 729 00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:42,900 like you know how impressive it is that people like you have 730 00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:46,000 have the discipline to do that and have wondered, you know I 731 00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:50,100 try to stay in shape but I have not had the discipline to to get 732 00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:51,900 into the kind of shape that you have. 733 00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:56,000 So I'm equally impressed, I think when it all boils down to 734 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:01,200 it man, whatever anybody's given trade or, you know, interest is 735 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,100 it all stems from being Able to just consistently chip away at 736 00:41:05,100 --> 00:41:07,000 it day by day. I mean, people look for 737 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,100 shortcuts people look for, you know, the make-or-break factor 738 00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:13,600 but it's just simply putting in the work, you know, continuously 739 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,400 and consistently. And if you do that, I mean, 740 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,200 you'll get things figured out. You make a ton of progress over 741 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,100 time? Yeah, no, absolutely. 742 00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:26,000 I mean, a lot of it just, you know, comes down to having the 743 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,400 discipline and having the energy and, you know, I do think that 744 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,100 the keto probably helped a little bit in that respect. 745 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,700 In terms of and getting me, and I didn't like radically changed 746 00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:39,800 my life, but I do think it made me a little bit more energetic 747 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,800 throughout the day. Probably, you know, a little bit 748 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:47,000 more ability to tap, into the fat stores and stay focused. 749 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,800 So, you know, maybe maybe that's the secret. 750 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,600 Did you notice having like, more mental acuity towards your 751 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,300 research and your writing and word flow after you became keto? 752 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,700 I did notice a little bit, but I always try to be You know, 753 00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:09,900 cautious of, you know, the placebo effect and are not the 754 00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:13,100 placebo effect, but just, you know, my own biases. 755 00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:16,500 And you know, I drink, it's just hard to separate out that 756 00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:18,600 variable because I'm always taking different amounts of 757 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,700 coffee or jogging now and then. So I haven't done a very 758 00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:26,300 controlled study of it but I think overall it definitely has 759 00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:31,400 helped and you know definitely you know, definitely lost weight 760 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:36,200 on it and Yeah have gotten you know better at jogging and 761 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,200 playing sports with my kids and stuff says clearly helped me but 762 00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:42,300 whether or not it's really helped my writing. 763 00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:45,500 I don't really know for sure what's in the pipeline for you 764 00:42:45,508 --> 00:42:46,800 man. What do you have coming up? 765 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,000 Here is another book and working on. 766 00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:51,700 Yeah I'm trying with a few different ideas. 767 00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:55,300 I want that. I'm haven't started at all, but 768 00:42:55,300 --> 00:43:00,100 I'm interested in its writing about steffensen, this Arctic 769 00:43:00,100 --> 00:43:03,000 explorer who also made a lot of really important. 770 00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:06,200 Attribution to understanding of sort of low-carbohydrate 771 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,400 nutrition. So, that's one option. 772 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,800 I have, you know, these is partially written. 773 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,600 Now that I've always wanted to get back to so so we'll see but, 774 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,100 you know, unfortunately, can we talk about discipline? 775 00:43:18,100 --> 00:43:20,700 Unfortunately, that promoting the book. 776 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,400 Takes a lot of work. I've discovered the hard way, so 777 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,600 that's taking up a lot of my time now, as well. 778 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,200 Yeah, I think a lot of people don't even realize that once the 779 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,100 book is written, I mean, shoot, the work just begins. 780 00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:35,500 Yeah. Now it's really true and I 781 00:43:35,508 --> 00:43:38,100 didn't do it as much for my first books and, you know, I've 782 00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:41,000 always thought, you know, it would be after working six 783 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,100 years, it would just be stupid to just not actually put in that 784 00:43:44,100 --> 00:43:47,700 last bit of work to do to try to get the word out. 785 00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:51,500 So I'm trying to do that now. But you know it's tough. 786 00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:55,500 I don't. Like to, you know, you know, you 787 00:43:55,500 --> 00:43:58,400 start to feel inevitably, you know, I think people understand 788 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,600 that you have to do it but you start to feel a narcissistic 789 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,100 when you're posting about yourself all the time. 790 00:44:03,100 --> 00:44:06,000 So I try to you know I always have Warburg in my mind as yeah. 791 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,200 Don't don't turn into that guy. Yeah, that's good. 792 00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:11,300 Good way to keep you in check. Just read your own writing. 793 00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:13,700 Yeah. What have you found to be the 794 00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:17,400 most bang for your buck so to speak as far as getting the word 795 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,800 out there and promoting the book like podcast, things of that 796 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,800 nature. Yeah, you know podcast I mean I 797 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:29,000 was very lucky. I got featured on CBS This 798 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,900 Morning and that, you know, that clearly reaches a massive 799 00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:33,700 audience. And, you know, the book like 800 00:44:33,700 --> 00:44:36,800 really Spike for a couple days on Amazon, but I think it's 801 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,800 mostly that. That was a rare sort of lucky 802 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,300 thing that that happened, but most of the time, it's just 803 00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:46,400 about, you know, posting on social media and talking on on 804 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:53,300 podcasts. And, you know, I Try to, you 805 00:44:53,300 --> 00:44:58,300 know, sort of build a voice on social media, which I hadn't 806 00:44:58,300 --> 00:45:00,700 really done before. And I've always, it's kind of 807 00:45:00,700 --> 00:45:04,500 funny that I really very personal books. 808 00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:08,100 You know, my first books, this book is not really personal but 809 00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:12,100 my first books are and I'm comfortable doing that but I 810 00:45:12,100 --> 00:45:16,100 actually feel strangely shy and I'm social media said trying to 811 00:45:16,107 --> 00:45:22,000 get over that a little bit and to tweet a lot more and Yeah, 812 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,500 it's been really you know rewarding to get these nice 813 00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:27,900 responses from from people online. 814 00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:31,500 You know a lot of people who are interested in Quito but not all. 815 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:36,600 And you know my thought is that rather than sort of going abroad 816 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,200 and trying to reach everybody. It's best to just you know try 817 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,200 to connect with the people who are interested in hope that 818 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,300 they'll spread the word to more people. 819 00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:48,600 Yeah, totally. I think going deep as opposed to 820 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,100 going broad as always a worthwhile. 821 00:45:51,700 --> 00:45:53,900 You know where to focus your efforts and I feel like, you 822 00:45:53,900 --> 00:45:58,100 know, if you produce great work then people will spread the word 823 00:45:58,100 --> 00:46:00,900 for you. So I'll certainly keep posting 824 00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:02,900 about it and writing about it and talking about it because I 825 00:46:02,900 --> 00:46:05,400 think it's like I said in the very beginning, one of the best 826 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,200 books are written as of late. So I'll happily keep promoting a 827 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,200 man, I really appreciate that. Thank you certainly certainly 828 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,400 well, Sam pleasure talking with you. 829 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,900 I'm excited for what lies ahead. I will certainly read anything 830 00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:19,000 you have coming in the pipeline in the future. 831 00:46:19,500 --> 00:46:22,700 If there's ever anything I can do for you, Means let me know 832 00:46:23,100 --> 00:46:25,800 where can people go to find out more about you and buy the book? 833 00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:30,800 Sure, the best place to find out more. 834 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,700 I suppose it's my website Sam apple.com, but I'm most first 835 00:46:35,700 --> 00:46:37,600 social media most active on Twitter. 836 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:44,000 It's at Sam underscore apple one on Twitter and on Instagram, I 837 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,400 recently started on Instagram. It's at Sam Apple Books and the 838 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,500 book should be available everywhere books are sold 839 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:53,400 Awesome. Awesome. 840 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,400 I will link answer all of those and do whatever. 841 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,400 I can to spread the word, I certainly appreciate it and keep 842 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,700 right man. All right, thank you so much, I 843 00:47:01,707 --> 00:47:03,100 really appreciate it. Take care.