Hello, ladies and gents Robert Sykes keto Savage.com.
And today I have special guests. A mapple on the line, Sam is the
author of a book that I have recently read that his quickly
become one of my favorite books so much, so that I bought a copy
for multiple people to gift this book because I am such a fan of
it. The book is called ravenous, it
is about Otto Warburg the Nazis and the search for the cancer
diet connection as what the the sub headline or says there.
And this is just not gonna Elijah.
It's an incredibly informative book but it takes on the
approach of being very novel, ask in nature, like it's a great
storyline. You would read this book and
it's like something out of a science fiction movie.
When you really start diving into all the nuanced, you know,
interlinking between Cancer the Nazis, Otto Warburg his personal
relationship. The discoveries he found truly
truly an incredibly entertaining read but one that you're going
to learn something from. So I cannot recommend picking up
this book. Yourself.
I got it on Audible, but get to wherever you want to get it.
Listen to it. It's an amazing.
It's amazing. Read all the way through
thoroughly enjoyed the conversation with same here
today because I wanted to dive deeper into the book itself,
what motivated him to write its and his writing style in general
and what compelled him to write this book.
It took him five, six years to write this thing and it's an
incredibly impressive read like I've stressed already.
But I wanted to get him the author on here and kind of pick
his brain has to How he went about writing and creating this
novel? So without further Ado sit back
relax and do the podcast with Sam Apple.
We are laughs. I'm a how are you sir?
Good, how you doing? I'm doing wonderfully.
Well, I'm excited to get you on because I just finished reading
your book ravenous and this is one of the best books I've read
in a long time, man. I must tip my hat to you on this
one. Thank you.
I really appreciate it. I want to dive into the
storyline, you know, for sure. But I'd love To kind of get some
some backstory new person. Like what what made you want to
research this topic to begin with sure?
I, you know, say around a decade ago, I became interested in
metabolism and metabolic health. I had read some articles and
books by Gary Tao sand other authors and that sort of got me
interested in the topic. But I had always assumed, like,
I think a lot of people, Still assume that cancer is not a
metabolic disease. I thought that, you know, it
made sense for obesity diabetes, cardiovascular disease, maybe,
but not cancer and then really became fascinated by the the
science. When I understood that cancer,
you know, also clusters together with these other metabolic
diseases. And, you know, I wanted to
understand why that was. And so I started to research
that and think about it a lot. Not because I had a personal
connection to cancer necessarily though all of us.
Do, you know and ourselves about the people that I love to
cancer? But, you know, I was really
interested in the science and you know like everybody you know
wonder about my own cancer risk but you know as I got into it I
learned about this scientist that I ended up writing about
Otto Warburg and I found his life and personality to be
fascinating. So then I had You know, both
scientific subject, that fascinated, me and character who
fascinated. Me and yeah, as a science writer
that's what I really look for is both of those pieces and you
know, there's this was really, you know, an ideal project for
me because you know I had both pieces in my mind, have you
written this style of book before like kind of going into
it from the scientific angle but then also kind of making it
novel. Esk innocence.
No I haven't, I've done. It I've done feature articles in
which I've taken a similar approach, but moving from, a
magazine article to book is very different.
I have written two prior books for adult audiences, but those
were quite different. My first book was not science
focused, but it was about my travels with the wandering
Shepherd and so some aspects of this were relevant and that, you
know, I talked about the history and Blended things together but
a Book of this nature. I had never really done before.
What was super fascinating for me.
Because I mean, I'm big into the keto space.
So I've heard of, you know, the Warburg effect through ketogenic
research and things of that nature.
But to really get the back story about Otto Warburg, as a
personing, just like the time and environment that he was
subjected to when all this was going down, it really added a
whole nother, dimension of storyline to everything that I
had heard prior to that point. So it was, it was entertaining.
It was interesting informative, but Entertaining as well.
Now thank you. You know that it's certainly my
goal at. You know, when I started out I
really you know I come across his name and an article probably
like you know you had or you know a lot of times when
scientists give a top there's like one slide with a picture of
Warburg space and but I didn't know anything about him.
And I really just Googled him and I started to, you know,
learn about is time, you know, under the Nazi regime and
Wanting to read more and more because I was fascinated.
But if it's actually challenging because most of it's in German
and my German isn't so great. So you know that's how it's
probably the biggest obstacles. I wanted to learn as much as I
could about were but it was hard.
So like with the research standpoints like how did you go
about digging this deep into all the context I would imagine?
Most of the the information around Warburg is specific to
his you know influence on the scientific literature.
Not so much this personal life. Yeah, yeah, it was it was very
challenging I had to, you know, as I mentioned before that, I
don't, you know, I hadn't written a book quite like this
before. So I had to in some ways sort of
teach myself along the way to become, you know, an archival
researcher. And it, it was challenging.
But, you know, I learned to sort of navigate these different
archives and fortunately for me, Warburg of though, you know, he
is all scientific work is in German, he Speak English
fluently. And so a lot of the letters that
I found were an English and others I needed help with in
terms of translators. But I found that you know it's
letters are scattered in archives all over the world.
I wasn't able to personally visit the vast majority of these
archives but you know it reach out to a place and ask them to
search for Mandy. You know, these archivists are
incredibly helpful they said be scanned images.
And so, you know, now you know, 20 years ago, I don't think I
Could have done something like this but now because
everything's online, you can really, you know, search the
world with the help of, you know, these archivists.
Hmm. Absolutely.
So I'd love to kind of, I don't want to just eat a recap the
entire book, encourage people to go read the book themselves, but
for the sake of painting, a clear picture here, you know,
like in the in the keto space, where I'm pretty much it will it
will involved the the general consensus or you know, topic
very high-level topic that people who are around as it
relates to Quito and cancer is that some of the doesn't really
know much of anything will oftentimes say, you know, cancer
feeds off of sugar. There's a damaged mitochondria
within cancer cells and you're not going to really be able to
fuel cancer growth if there's not an abundance of sugar or
carbohydrates. And people start, you know, here
that high level View and they start diving deeper and that's
when they discover Warburg and here at the Warburg effect.
So just to kind of continue that conversation because you kind of
dive into basically your book and and kind of a synopsis of
What this really all stemmed from sure.
So, you know, really all begins in 1923.
That's the year. Otto Warburg the scientist,
who's at the center of my book makes this, you know,
fascinating discovery which is that cancer cells take up a lot
of glucose and fermented you know, meaning that instead of
burning it all with oxygen and the mitochondria which is a very
efficient process and a great way for a cell to do in generate
energy and Cancer cells, take up all that glucose and ferment
much of it, which is, you know, I use the analogy of a backup
generator in the book, they break the glucose down quickly
and you know, send most of it out of the cell in the form of
lactic acid. It's, you know, fermentation is
the same process that, you know, bacteria and microorganisms use.
That gives us, you know, so many of our favorite foods from, you
know, beer bread and wine, and cheese.
So the cancer cells were doing this You know, it was pretty
surprising for a few reasons. One, it was only years earlier
that scientists had understood that human cells could do this
at all. Now we know that, you know, when
you exercise intensely, you know, produce lactic acid, but
it was all new in the 1920s, but you would think that cancer
cells will be the last cells to do this.
Because, you know, they need to grow.
They need a lot of energy and warmer when he set out to study
this he assumed against ourselves would take up more
oxygen and do more respiration, you know, burning glucose with
oxygen. So the fact that They were doing
it less, and instead turning the fermentation was very strange.
And, you know, to this day is is debated.
Why cancer cells through this, what advantage does it?
Give the cancer cell. So that's kind of the starting
point for the scientific investigation.
And then, in my book, I tried to sort of marry that story to, you
know, a related story which is why cancer is becoming such a
common, you know, why it became such a common disease.
He's beginning in the 19th century and continuing
throughout the 20th century and I, you know, try to weave these
narratives together in the end by suggesting that, you know,
the answer to both puzzles, may actually be insulin resistance
and elevated insulin, that the insulin seems to be driving a
lot of this Warburg metabolism. And, you know, insulin and
elevated. Insulin might also explain sort
of the rise of cancer and In the late 19th century and would
begin to explain why cancer has sort of you know clustered
together with obesity and diabetes beginning in the late
19th century and continuing to this day.
So that's a lot. We can go into more detail but
that's kind of the very big picture.
Yeah. I mean it is very fascinating to
hear that so much this research was done.
I mean the reason Otto Warburg it could be argued probably
survive to do this research. That has shaped a lot of It is
what modern science agrees upon today is because of Hitler's
relationship with cancer and his motivation to keep Otto, Warburg
alive and working. Yeah, yeah, that really
fascinated me. So, you know, Warburg by 1933
when the Nazis came to power where Berg is really at the top
of the scientific World. He's already won.
The Nobel Prize for his work on respiration.
He's already made this, you know, extraordinary discovery
about cancer. So in 1933, many scientists who
are in his position, You know, flee Germany but Warburg who has
two Jewish grandparents. So he's considered a Jew by the
Nazis and lives openly with a male partner.
So, yeah, I wouldn't say that he was out, but he was pretty
clear. That gate, anybody who cared to
pay attention. So he should have been, you
know, sort of the most at risk in terms of Nazi Germany and
yet, despite provoking the Nazis again and again.
And even, you know, in some instances, he chasing people out
of his Institute who were harassing him.
And the Nazis ultimately protected him.
And I do think it's because of his cancer research.
You know what I learned is that many of the top Nazi is not just
hit there, but many of them were absolutely terrified of cancer
and you know, fixated on the disease but Hitler more so than
anybody probably because his mother had died of breast cancer
and Also, because he was a hypochondriac, but yeah.
So I think that whatever was protected the end because of his
cancer research and you know, he did make extraordinary
contributions, you know, so it, it's a very strange story.
Yeah, it's interesting. I didn't know half the stuff
that you're running about Hitler with regard to like, I didn't
know that about his mother. I didn't know that he was pretty
much vegan I guess you could say, right?
yeah, I would say, you know, he didn't always stick to it but
for he definitely believes strongly and vegetarianism and
Aspired to be vegetarian all the time.
Occasionally you know what, eat some animal products.
But he was a big believer and sort of a raw vegetarian diets
as the sort of solution to all health problems and that was
mainly. Because at that time, the point
the finger was pointed at red meat for being the predominant
cause for cancer. Well, I mean some of that was
around already but I think in the case of Hitler made the top
Nazis, it had less. To do with the associations
between meat and cancer and more to do with the idea that, you
know, the meat was impure. You know, there's this one
historian who was very, who had a very big influence on my work
and thinking, is named Robert Proctor.
And he talked about the entire Nazi project being, you know,
sort of a delusional state where they wanted to be, you know,
purify everything, the pure Aryan race and anything that was
considered Nerd impure, you know, was part of their project
was to rid of it. So meat was impure Jews wear a,
and ultimately their war on cancer was also you know,
diseases are a. So all the, all these things are
linked together. It is true.
That already there was, you know, some scientific discussion
about beaten cancer. But a lot of the science that I
don't think actually, it's very strong.
These correlations came, a little later.
Got you? I got you.
I didn't know that about his interest for, I guess,
obsessiveness towards sugar to it.
See He was all about it consuming as much sugar as
possible. Yeah, yeah.
He was. I don't know that I've ever
heard of a person who is more addicted to Sugar, you know, I
like to point out that I am by no means suggesting that sugar
is the explanation for his horrific Behavior.
But it's just an interesting historical point in the context
of this discussion, that he was a sugar addict and he took other
drugs to, you know, he was a Madman.
So, you know, he did something to, you know, And same degree.
But yeah, the accounts of beyond the amount of deserve he would
eat in a day. It's unheard of the cool thing
about what you're doing with this book is that and I would
imagine in order to write something this detail oriented,
you have to really dive into everything that these people
were doing throughout their day to night, take into account, the
environmental factors are play and then try and understand in
the sect why they made the decisions they did.
I mean as you were writing about Otto it's like you have pretty
good understanding of how this person thinks.
Yeah, yeah. What I thank you.
I'm glad it comes out that way. You know.
One thing that was very lucky is that although he didn't do a lot
of personal writing his sister loto is a very talented writer
and diarist and so she recorded you know lots of their
conversations and reflection. So you know her diary was
probably my most important source for a lot of this.
So I was lucky to have that but at the same time I was actually
a frustrating at times that Warburg I didn't, you know,
often times I would find like a stack of his letters, but he
would immediately start talking about science.
You know, a lot of times he didn't write about himself.
So I had to kind of piece it together from various sources,
but because he was such a genius that many people who met him,
what else do, right? You know, first-hand accounts of
the meeting. So I was able to gather a lot of
those accounts and sort of piece them together.
It seemed like a lot of his personality was was I mean, as
we are, all are largely impacted by our Pants.
And it seems like he was probably as I don't know what
word, you use to describe me and seemed kind of like, overly
cocky, you know. Just just convinced that his way
or no way. Basically, I'm assuming large
large, part of, that was directly related to his success.
The successes father had seen in his upbringing.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's right.
You know, he is Father Emil Warburg was a very celebrated
physicist close friend of Einstein and Many other famous
German scientists, including Max, Planck, and really all the
leading German mines of the time where people that came in and
out of four bricks house as father.
When you know, it's like chamber music, but with Einstein and
others. So, whatever grows up in this
home, that is filled by a future Nobel Prize winners.
You know, the Nobel prizes were only instituted 1900, but, you
know, he grows up, you know, basically assuming that he's
going to be a great scientist. Just like, you know, all the
people in his childhood home and, you know, he's brilliant,
so it's you know, it's a somewhat reasonable expectation.
He grows up in a German Society where science really is the
highest ideal. This is a time when Germany is
truly at the top of the scientific world.
And, you know, wherever it wants that, he pitied anybody who
didn't grow up to be a scientist, they couldn't imagine
it. I mean he was just entirely
devoted to his science in a way that, you know, I don't even
think it was possible and remark.
So, So so yeah, but in better, in addition to all that, you
know, some of it was just his inborn, you know.
Arrogance, you know, I don't some of it.
He was just, you know, just incredibly arrogant human being
that, you know, was a weakness, of course, in terms of having to
deal with him and other things. But at times was actually a
strength, I think in terms of his science, particularly when
he was younger, when he was doing really bold work and
asking both questions that others who Less content might
not have taken on and, you know, in remarkably, when oftentimes,
he would arrive at a question and not actually have the proper
scientific tool to investigate, he would just, you know, all
right. I'll build that tool.
So she actually, you know, engineer and a number of really
important scientific tools which change science in many ways.
Yeah, it's adorable to see his level of commitment to his work
because, I mean, as you said, there's not a whole lot of
people that are seemingly doing that's with any, you know, genre
these days. But when you look back in
history, other people. That Make History are the ones
that seemingly just commit themselves.
Wholeheartedly day in day out. Don't take a break from it
because that is what defines them?
And I would say that's definitely the case with auto
here. Yeah, absolutely.
I would it feel bad when I was reading these accounts of the
people that worked in his lab because they were also am by our
standards. They were also probably
extraordinarily, you know, dedicated and hardworking.
But, you know, he was, he couldn't understand why they
needed even one day off, you know, let alone two for a week.
And you know, and his his father was, you know, similar and you
know, I read accounts of people who studied under his father
would be working at midnight. And, you know, if they weren't
there was like, you know what's going on?
When you're doing your research at midnight, it was a period in
German history that you know, I don't know that will ever exist
again that just extraordinary dedication to science.
And you know, they it it led to Two extraordinary discoveries in
many different fields. So, you know, we're lucky, it's
the dedication existed and it seemed like like his passion
wasn't even so much. The the cancer research I mean,
photosynthesis was his kind of stick, it seemed.
Yeah. I mean, he his three main areas
were respiration, unicellular, breathing, photosynthesis, and
cancer. And you know, in his mind they
were all fundamentally linked to you know, study of cellular
energy So he saw it is all the same, but it happens to be that
he got into a huge Feud about photosynthesis.
So and his last decades, he spent a lot of time, you know,
arguing with people about photosynthesis but I do think
ultimately his greatest contributions were in cancer and
cellular breathing. Yeah, yeah.
What do you think with regard to, like his personal life and
his partner? Like, how did all that come to
Be and it wasn't a whole lot of back story on that.
As far as it kind of started off talking about like, was there,
did you find anything in your research that kind of paved the
way for that? Well, you know, so he was pretty
clearly homosexual, I think, you know from you know, early in
life when he meets, you know, he goes into World War 1.
When he returns, this man comes to work in his house.
As, you know, at the time, the phrase used at the time was like
a houseboy, you're like, a manservant type of thing and
it's, you know, they spend the rest of their life together.
Back together at all times. It's very clearly, a loving
relationship. And I think that, you know,
Warburg was actually at the time, it was, you could not be
openly gay and German least in his sector of German society.
And you know, Warburg was quite open about it.
Given given the times, you know, and he would sometimes like be
invited to give a talk somewhere and he would say, you know, only
do it if you invite my partner, you know, Jakob lies hidden
refer to them as It's partner, but point, you know, he was open
about doing everything with him. When he got letters from
friends, they would, you know, talk about Heist and say, you
know, send my regards. So, you know, it was in the same
way that, you know, when the Nazis came into power and
started to harass him, he refused to be budged.
You know that same stubbornness, you know, was, you know, a great
credit to him when it came. I think to his homosexuality
that he wasn't going to let people sort of scare him out of
it, so yeah, it's Pretty remarkable.
You know, he was not only a gay Jew, but, you know, he his last
name. Whatever was a famous Jewish
name. So, on the surface at least, you
know, he had every reason to be worried about the Nazi threat.
Yeah. I mean, when you stop and like
pure back the layers on all the things that are going against
him as far as his likelihood of surviving in Nazi Germany, at
that time. He's pretty much got all the
cars stacked against them mean his his sexual preference his
name and the fact that he is Jewish and yeah, he's pretty
much a Allowed free rein up until the very end there.
Yeah I mean worst of all for him maybe just his behavior you know
even. Yeah.
Baby were so outrageous. You know, like this Nazi Customs
official comes to his, you know, inspect his laboratory and to
ask him to sign, you know, a declaration of Aryan descent.
That's what I write about in the beginning of the book and
Warburg, not only kicks the guy out, but then sends you a letter
to the authorities, claiming that the guy was unclean and,
you know, smelled bad. He really did everything he
could to provoke them at one point.
You know, they came and asked some of his employees to
participate in a Nazi March and Warburg City, would burn down
his Institute before he allowed it, you refuse to give the Nazi
salute, he wouldn't put up the Nazi flag so you know, the one
hand it kind of made him, you know, very likeable and kind of
a hero. But on the other hand he was so
arrogant. That the more I dug into the
research and read about him. I realized that, you know, as
much as I admire that it wasn't because he was a great champion
of Human Rights so much as he just couldn't stand that,
anybody interfering with him, you know, he if they call them
the Kaiser of dalam the neighborhood that he lived and
you know he thought of himself as as an emperor and he wasn't
going to let these Nazi thugs as he called them interfere with
his work. When you when you started
writing this book and you had this this early idea of what he
may have been like what you would have hoped, he would be
like and then you start uncovering all this stuff about
his personality. Probably not being, you know,
the greatest Did you steal that you feel more compelled to write
that story? Are you kind of like let down in
a sense? Yeah, it's really interesting
question you know I think it went back and forth you know
some days I would be writing about him standing up to Nazis
and I feel good about him and other days I'd be reading about,
you know him you know, at the end of the war, some of his
loyal and well it's complicated but basically you know, some of
his employees You were sent to the front lines at the end of
the war and he had a chance to protect them and he didn't
because he was, you know, thought that they had betrayed
him or what not. But, so there were, you know,
some really dark moments in his story and I would feel down
about him. But, you know, at the end of the
day, I guess I didn't feel like it, you know, it was my job to
choose one side or the other but just to portray both sides of
him and and to try to tell it as honestly, as I could, you know,
would be nice. If he had been a slightly more
likeable person, I, you know, I was somewhat sympathetic to him,
you know, one of his sort of big crimes was not crimes but, you
know, one of the black records on his name if you will, is that
he chose to stay in Nazi Germany and the more I read about his
life, the more I began to understand why he did that and
how he had misunderstood the Nazi threat.
So I tried to look at it somewhat sympathetically at
times, you know. Couldn't even know his arrogance
was, you know, offensive and outrageous at times I couldn't
help but find it comment you know he was a great eccentric
and I've always been drawn to those kind of people.
So I think I like him about as much as someone could give him
the evidence but you know there's no question that he was
in many ways a complete jerk. Yeah.
Well he's made a pretty significant contribution for
sure. It's interesting that all of his
work on rest. Operation was in the Limelight
and then kind of faded for quite some time as the tension turned
towards genetics and then here recently it seems that that's
kind of become much more intertwined than he's gotten
more Center Stage here as of late.
Yeah yeah it's been this really incredible rediscovery of his
cancer where I mean the first incredible part of my mind is
how quickly it disappeared in the post-war period, you know,
by the late Late 20th century in the 80s and 90s.
Yeah, he's like vanished, you not mentioned in textbooks, not
mentioned in famous, scientific papers in that.
It's really only in the late 90s where he's read, has
rediscovered again. But metabolism was thought of as
you know old world science you know biochemistry at all been
figured out and do cool stuff with the molecular biology and
tracing mutations to these signaling pathways Ways and
Warburg just seemed to relic of a different era.
So it was really, you know, pretty remarkable thing that he
was, you know, it made such an important Discovery.
And yet it was completely lost and part of the reason, it's so
amazing. I think, is that even as this
was happening. And there was this emergence of
this new diagnostic technique, the Pet Scan, which basically
just looks at where glucose is being taken up in the body and
that's, you know, how you diagnose cancer.
So, you know, in a way - all right, in the face and yet in
the scientific world it was completely lost in its now come
back of course in a major way. That's was so humbling about it.
Like so many people in, you know, today's day and age.
They look at the scientific literature out there and they
just they speak. So confidently as to what they
know in their heart of hearts to be true.
But then like, for me, I could feel that way.
But then I go and I read a book like yours and it's like wow
what if we're just in that era between major breakthroughs and
we're just all, you know, So assuming that we know all when
in reality we're missing a huge piece of the puzzle that's
already been discovered in the past were not giving it the
credit that's do. Yeah, yeah.
No I mean there is no question that you know, that that we're
always missing something and also a third of these pendulum
swing of yeah they'll be an interest in one thing and then
it'll swing back to the other thing and it's just, you know, I
guess hard for humans or scientific communities to look
at the big picture and rather than sort of Focusing in on
whatever. The exciting thing is at the
moment. But you know it's a shame
because you know, I do think, you know, we have, in my
opinion, we have missed, you know, one big thing which is,
you know, the insulin story, which you know, connects to the
Warburg story but you know, that's part of why.
You know, I wrote this post, I want to explore the science of
insulin and cancer which I think you know relates to warburg's,
metabolism discoveries in cancer.
That's another topic man. There's so much there's so much
controversy right now especially with in the nutritional science
space about, you know, the driving factor for obesity.
Whether it's hormone-related and insulin or more.
So, just a excess of caloric consumption.
And it's, it's hard to, you know, pick and choose any one
factor and say, with utmost degree of certainty that it's
this or that I feel like it's all got to be intertwined in
some form or fashion. yeah, there's a lot of You know, I
think, you know, there's a lot of debate I think between, you
know, the precise mechanism but I think you know, even even
those people that question what they call a carbohydrate insulin
while I think even the people that, you know, prefer these
more standard commonly accepted model of, you know, Cal
determining obesity, you know, I think they've integrated insulin
into their model as well. It just kind of put less
emphasis on it, but You know, I think that even a part from the
Obesity story, I think the science of insulin in cancer,
you know, it's pretty strong even if you don't think that
insulin is the key driver of obesity, you know, as I my
personal thought, you know, based on the science.
And I certainly agree with you. That one shouldn't speak with
too much certainty about about any of this stuff, because its
controversial. But what I came away with from
based on my research is you know, Thinking that that insulin
is playing a key role in driving obesity and cancer.
A lot of people think that, you know, obesity is causing a
Cancer and it certainly playing a role.
But I think that the insulin is probably Dragon cancer
independent to the Obesity but it just happens to because both,
you know, for me it's I mean I've been following a ketogenic
diet now for 67 years or so, and for me, it's just it's just
easy, it's sustainable. And it keeps the whole, you
know, blood sugar regulation and insolence.
Already questioned out of the equation like I just know it's
all solid and I feel like, you know, I would never suggest that
anybody has to be following a ketogenic approach to avoid
cancer or obesity by any means. But I feel like it definitely
makes hedging the bed so to speak much easier.
Yeah the way I the way I think about it is that you know if you
are insulin resistant and have elevated insulin which you know,
unfortunately most of us have Happy in America and I certainly
did at one point in my life then it just makes sense to to keep,
you know, to follow a diet that will get your insulin lower.
You know, Quito is one way to do that.
Maybe you can find another way to do it.
Maybe, you know it's time restricted eating or, you know,
something else but I think you've got to get the insulin
lower if you are insulin resistant and for me as well you
know, they'll carve Quito is just an easy way to do it.
Totally how is your book been? To by mainstream public.
I mean for me in mine, you know, Niche Circle.
It seems like it took off like wildfire.
I posted about it on my newsletter, I've had several
people mentioned on Instagram and it seems to be very well
received within the the low-carb space.
But as far as like the general population goes, what kind of
feedback have you gotten? Yes, it's a good question.
I yeah, definitely I've noticed and been incredibly grateful for
the fact that, you know, a lot of people in the low carb
Community have responded positively to it and have, you
know, put messages out on social media.
So I hope that I hope that's spreading to, you know, people
that aren't interested in nutrition.
You know, some of the most rewarding feedback I've gotten
from people. You know, nothing about any of
these subjects and have no interest in, just read the book
and really liked it. And, you know, I think my
favorite was from a cancer scientist who's not into any of
this stuff, but emailed me and said, yeah, after you finish the
book, he decided not to eat the carrot cake, that was sitting on
a table. So I really like that response,
but I think that, you know, in terms of nobody is, Nobody is
attacked me, which it, which is nice.
Ah, you know, that sometimes online on Twitter, people have
actually been a little concerned that I'm suggesting that, you
know, ketogenic diet is going to cure cancer.
Which I of course don't do and I don't believe that ketogenic
diet is a miracle cure for cancer.
I think that, you know, it has, you know, we need more research
and then it has potential to be used in conjunction with other
therapies and maybe an It addition to the other therapies
but that's the one thing that, you know, if face some negative
feedback about but my book is actually focused on prevention
as I point out to these people but you know I hope that you
know the book will reach a right a wider audience.
I think it's selling pretty well I actually don't know the
numbers. I've been afraid to ask the
publisher. I figure I should stay You know,
keep my head down and keep working to spread the word about
it, and I hope people will enjoy it.
I feel overall I've been very lucky but to get such a nice
response. Well, I definitely would not
think that it did. It's written in a way that is
biased in favor of the kids drink that.
I mean, I think you only mentioned the ketogenic diet,
just a handful of times throughout the whole book like
it was not the Highlight by any means.
It just kind of worked well in tandem based off of the methods
and protocols. That That Otto Warburg was
discovering throughout the throughout the book.
Yeah. So, you know, I personally
follow a ketogenic diet then. Yeah, I do I think, you know, I
think I only mentioned it once or twice in the book but you
know if you are familiar with the you know the book clearly
implicates elevated insulin. So if you're familiar with the
ketogenic diet, then you would think okay?
Well therefore ketogenic diet will help me lower my insulin,
I'll do that, but I do not, you know, it's not a prescriptive
book you I just try to present the evidence.
I'm a journalist, I'm not a doctor and then, you know,
people can take away from it what they want, but I think it
is. You know, if you follow the
logic, it does make sense that Kita would be a sensible plan to
lower your insulin or certainly at the very least to avoid you
know, sugar soup. When I say sugar, I mean Sue
proce as opposed secretly glucans 100%.
I'm curious, I want to kind of switch the gears from Auto in
and kind of ask you a few personal questions.
I was here, but I admire people that do great work and I kind of
like to tease out, how they do that, great work.
So for you being an author, what is, what is your work for look?
Like what is, what is a day in the life of Sam?
Apple. Look like, as far as how you
maintain productivity, how long it take you to write this book
specifically sure. Yeah, it took me five years to
write this book and really, you know, the year before that I was
working on a magazine article that led to the book.
So really six years Years of work, and it was not not easy.
By any means, you know, I'd like to say, I'm one of these authors
that can just sit down and write all day without stopping, but
I'm get burned out after like, three or four hours of writing
and that's on a good day. So, you know, one thing that was
nice for me is that, you know, I can't write for three or four
hours, you know, more than three or Hours.
But I still have some of the mental energy to do research and
other hours. And, you know, I also teach
writing so that doesn't, you know, use the same sort of
mental energy that the writing does.
But you know, I was lucky in a lot of ways that I didn't, you
know, this book took tremendous amount of my time and I didn't
have a heavy teaching load for a number of the years when I was
working on it. So I was in a pretty lucky A
situation but, you know, part of it was, you know, just
eventually realizing that, you know, I had to, you know,
develop better working habits and doing, you know, things like
a lot of people do like you know I got an app that blocked the
internet and you know I would often work at cafes away from
home where you know, was far enough away that I couldn't just
go home. If I got tired, you know, I
tried to, you know, set up little things that would make me
more discipline but There's also, you know, I had a contract
for the book, so I had a deadline and nothing makes fun
more discipline than having a deadline.
You know, when you write a nonfiction book, usually submit
a proposal or a couple chapters and then you get it, you know,
an advance payment, then you have to write the book.
So I wasn't going to get paid, or I would have to actually
return the money if I didn't write the book so that helps.
But if you write a novel, you often have to write the whole
thing at the beginning, and then just turn it over.
So that in a way, to take season, even more dedication
because you don't even have the knowledge that it's going to be
published. But yeah, you just, you know,
the advice that I read from another writer, Larry Brown, who
I really like, was he you just got to keep your ass in the
chair. So and I learned to do that,
it's not always easy. But yeah, my my my work day is
not very exciting sitting that. Table, you know typing it's
super impressive though man. Like I've been in the middle of
writing a book for the past. I'm going on two years now and
it'll all commit to writing, no less than 500 words for a day
and I'll do that for, you know, several months at a time, I'll
get a massive chunk of text written and then I'll take a
break from that. Then I'll do a lot of proofing
on that that is already written but it's impressive man.
Like people who have never written a book like to for you
specifically taking five. Five six years to write this one
and the amount of research and discipline towards just honing
in on that craft every single day moving the needle forward
just bit by bit. I mean that's like anything in
life. That requires extreme discipline
over an extremely long period of time.
Impresses the hell out of me. Well thank you.
Yeah I appreciate that. And you know I thought you know,
wondered that you're as I understand it pretty serious
weight lifter, bodybuilders. That is that correct?
Yes, sir. Yeah sighing.
Yeah, I thought about that and in terms of discipline as well
like you know how impressive it is that people like you have
have the discipline to do that and have wondered, you know I
try to stay in shape but I have not had the discipline to to get
into the kind of shape that you have.
So I'm equally impressed, I think when it all boils down to
it man, whatever anybody's given trade or, you know, interest is
it all stems from being Able to just consistently chip away at
it day by day. I mean, people look for
shortcuts people look for, you know, the make-or-break factor
but it's just simply putting in the work, you know, continuously
and consistently. And if you do that, I mean,
you'll get things figured out. You make a ton of progress over
time? Yeah, no, absolutely.
I mean, a lot of it just, you know, comes down to having the
discipline and having the energy and, you know, I do think that
the keto probably helped a little bit in that respect.
In terms of and getting me, and I didn't like radically changed
my life, but I do think it made me a little bit more energetic
throughout the day. Probably, you know, a little bit
more ability to tap, into the fat stores and stay focused.
So, you know, maybe maybe that's the secret.
Did you notice having like, more mental acuity towards your
research and your writing and word flow after you became keto?
I did notice a little bit, but I always try to be You know,
cautious of, you know, the placebo effect and are not the
placebo effect, but just, you know, my own biases.
And you know, I drink, it's just hard to separate out that
variable because I'm always taking different amounts of
coffee or jogging now and then. So I haven't done a very
controlled study of it but I think overall it definitely has
helped and you know definitely you know, definitely lost weight
on it and Yeah have gotten you know better at jogging and
playing sports with my kids and stuff says clearly helped me but
whether or not it's really helped my writing.
I don't really know for sure what's in the pipeline for you
man. What do you have coming up?
Here is another book and working on.
Yeah I'm trying with a few different ideas.
I want that. I'm haven't started at all, but
I'm interested in its writing about steffensen, this Arctic
explorer who also made a lot of really important.
Attribution to understanding of sort of low-carbohydrate
nutrition. So, that's one option.
I have, you know, these is partially written.
Now that I've always wanted to get back to so so we'll see but,
you know, unfortunately, can we talk about discipline?
Unfortunately, that promoting the book.
Takes a lot of work. I've discovered the hard way, so
that's taking up a lot of my time now, as well.
Yeah, I think a lot of people don't even realize that once the
book is written, I mean, shoot, the work just begins.
Yeah. Now it's really true and I
didn't do it as much for my first books and, you know, I've
always thought, you know, it would be after working six
years, it would just be stupid to just not actually put in that
last bit of work to do to try to get the word out.
So I'm trying to do that now. But you know it's tough.
I don't. Like to, you know, you know, you
start to feel inevitably, you know, I think people understand
that you have to do it but you start to feel a narcissistic
when you're posting about yourself all the time.
So I try to you know I always have Warburg in my mind as yeah.
Don't don't turn into that guy. Yeah, that's good.
Good way to keep you in check. Just read your own writing.
Yeah. What have you found to be the
most bang for your buck so to speak as far as getting the word
out there and promoting the book like podcast, things of that
nature. Yeah, you know podcast I mean I
was very lucky. I got featured on CBS This
Morning and that, you know, that clearly reaches a massive
audience. And, you know, the book like
really Spike for a couple days on Amazon, but I think it's
mostly that. That was a rare sort of lucky
thing that that happened, but most of the time, it's just
about, you know, posting on social media and talking on on
podcasts. And, you know, I Try to, you
know, sort of build a voice on social media, which I hadn't
really done before. And I've always, it's kind of
funny that I really very personal books.
You know, my first books, this book is not really personal but
my first books are and I'm comfortable doing that but I
actually feel strangely shy and I'm social media said trying to
get over that a little bit and to tweet a lot more and Yeah,
it's been really you know rewarding to get these nice
responses from from people online.
You know a lot of people who are interested in Quito but not all.
And you know my thought is that rather than sort of going abroad
and trying to reach everybody. It's best to just you know try
to connect with the people who are interested in hope that
they'll spread the word to more people.
Yeah, totally. I think going deep as opposed to
going broad as always a worthwhile.
You know where to focus your efforts and I feel like, you
know, if you produce great work then people will spread the word
for you. So I'll certainly keep posting
about it and writing about it and talking about it because I
think it's like I said in the very beginning, one of the best
books are written as of late. So I'll happily keep promoting a
man, I really appreciate that. Thank you certainly certainly
well, Sam pleasure talking with you.
I'm excited for what lies ahead. I will certainly read anything
you have coming in the pipeline in the future.
If there's ever anything I can do for you, Means let me know
where can people go to find out more about you and buy the book?
Sure, the best place to find out more.
I suppose it's my website Sam apple.com, but I'm most first
social media most active on Twitter.
It's at Sam underscore apple one on Twitter and on Instagram, I
recently started on Instagram. It's at Sam Apple Books and the
book should be available everywhere books are sold
Awesome. Awesome.
I will link answer all of those and do whatever.
I can to spread the word, I certainly appreciate it and keep
right man. All right, thank you so much, I
really appreciate it. Take care.