1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,880 Well hello ladies and gents, Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,800 and today I have special guest Eric Helms on the podcast. 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,560 Eric is a PhD, he is a WNBF pro bodybuilder. 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:14,400 He is the Science Officer at Team 3 DMJ and he is an amazing, 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,720 amazing individual. I get the pleasure the honor of 6 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,640 competing alongside him this past competitive season. 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,120 I spoke with him on numerous occasions backstage and at the 8 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,360 judging feedback session, and I just was continually impressed 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,960 by his character and overall demeanor. 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,159 He is a wealth of knowledge. He's been in the natural 11 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,200 bodybuilding space for quite some time. 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,520 He was in it long before I was. I was watching his contents when 13 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,440 I was first getting into the space and I really wanted to 14 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,440 just pick his brain on his reverse diet, or as he calls it, 15 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,120 recovery diet because he and I both competed at Worlds as our 16 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,160 final show. So he and I are both in the same 17 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,840 stage of our recovery journey. So I wanted to kind of pick his 18 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,960 brain and tease out how he structures that, because that is 19 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,160 a topic that does not get enough attention. 20 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,560 We talk a little bit about nutrition, we talk a lot about 21 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,160 nutrition. We talk about body fat, set 22 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:10,600 points, how to improve one's body fats, how to maintain a 23 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,520 healthy composition, post show, how to make natural bodybuilding 24 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,440 and changing one's composition in its entirety a healthy, 25 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,120 sustainable endeavour. We dive into the science a 26 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,800 little bit. We talk about 3 DMJ, We talk 27 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,680 about all kinds of things. I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoy 28 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,320 this conversation. I'm definitely going to have to 29 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:30,240 get him back on the show because there's so many additional 30 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,840 things I wanted to pick his brain on that we just simply did 31 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,600 not get the chance to cover. So I have absolutely no doubt 32 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,560 you will take something from this conversation if natural 33 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,160 bodybuilding, changing one's body composition, healthy eating 34 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,320 habits is of any interest to you whatsoever. 35 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,760 So that for the delay, sit back, relax, enjoy the conversation 36 00:01:48,840 --> 00:02:01,120 with Eric Helms and we are live. 37 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:02,400 Eric Helms. How are you brother? 38 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:04,720 I'm good, Robert. How you doing man? 39 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,320 I'm good. I'm excited to be chatting with 40 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,039 you man. I had the pleasure of meeting 41 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:12,720 you in person at the Washington show and I chatted with you bits 42 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,600 at the judges feedback session afterwards. 43 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,680 And I just continue to be impressed by your level of 44 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:18,920 character every time I see you, man. 45 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,640 Well thank you dude that that's that's really a huge compliment 46 00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:24,800 for you to say that specifically about my character it means a 47 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,240 lot and again just huge congratulations on. 48 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,280 I mean I don't, I wish people could could see the the win you 49 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,040 pulled off because you were up against some very, very stiff 50 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,440 competition and not only did you win a very competitive 51 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,080 lightweight class, but then you win to the overall against a 52 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,040 heavyweights heavyweight and then just a very, very good 53 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,120 middle weight with some really stand out body parts. 54 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,560 And you just brought a conditioning and peak and 55 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,320 hardness that was undeniable and you snatched up both the 56 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:55,960 potential pro cards man. So well done. 57 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,120 Hey, I appreciate it, man. That show specifically has been 58 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:05,480 on my radar for quite some time. I competed in that back in 2015 59 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,160 and I got first in my class I believe and then second in the 60 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,960 overall. And then I competed in that that 61 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,440 show in 2017, and I think the same thing happened. 62 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,960 And in 2020, when I had planned on competing, COVID cancelled it 63 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,200 all. So that show's been on my sides 64 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,320 for a while and. That's pretty cool, 'cause there 65 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,520 there's obviously a story behind that show for myself and and 66 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:33,040 Jeff Albert, who competed in the pro division, that was the, I 67 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,880 would say probably the the, the last series of conversations 68 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,680 that kind of solidified the future of three DMJ forming at 69 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:44,040 the end of O 9. Jeff and I did multiple shows 70 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:49,480 together. Berto was my wingman and we did 71 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,040 the NGA California together. We did what was then the cap 72 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,320 city, now the muscle mayhem and then Jeff lost to Moji Alua in 73 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,400 the overall by one point at the mayhem, I had the privilege of 74 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:04,360 being in that overall being a distant third or fourth, I'm not 75 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,480 even sure emoji and Jeff. And then being in the same 76 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,400 position when we went to the Washington State back when it 77 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:17,279 was still promoted by Kevin. And yeah, at that at that time, 78 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,000 I think Jeff actually won by one point beating out Luke Ellis, 79 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:26,160 another you know, very great heavyweight who got his WBF pro 80 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,600 card, not I think the next year in that same show. 81 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,280 So there's been a number of people who've that show has been 82 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:36,960 like they're, they're Crucible, like Luke Ellis, Jeff as well as 83 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,000 you. And it was pretty cool with Jeff 84 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:44,320 for us to come back to that show 14 years later and just to see 85 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,120 it thriving so well. And Aaron Orton now stepping in 86 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,400 to do such a good job. And yeah congratulations man. 87 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,480 That's awesome that you were able to to come back and not 88 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,080 only like tick that box but like tick it in stone and just etch 89 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,160 it like you. You definitely put it down I. 90 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,400 Appreciate it man. Well it was, it was cool 91 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,320 competing alongside you and Jeff and I mean you got your pro card 92 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,080 this year as well and I know that's been quite the quite the 93 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,240 journey for you too, man. So it was it was cool to see you 94 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,400 cross that finish line. Yeah, dude, that was a very good 95 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:19,160 experience for me as well. And I had to do every single 96 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,120 show I had planned to to make that happen. 97 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,080 And I was willing to even, you know, sneak out and try to do 98 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,880 one more show in the States couple weeks before Worlds if I 99 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:29,720 had to. But yeah, I was able to finally 100 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:36,160 close the deal and close that chapter after jeez, 14 years of 101 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:41,880 competing for it and having it as a goal for 17 years in 102 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,880 October at the the WBF Australia show. 103 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,720 So that was a that was a that was a it was a great season for 104 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,840 both of us and it was a privilege to be able to compete 105 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:51,200 at Worlds in the pro Division. Man. 106 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:52,640 So. Yeah, 100%. 107 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:54,920 Yeah. I mean the so how many how many 108 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:56,440 shows did you do total this season then? 109 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,560 I did a total of five. That's what I did. 110 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:01,640 Five is five is a lot of shows, man. 111 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,040 It is it. I think I wanna say it's the 112 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,640 most I've ever done. I in O nine, I did 5 shows as 113 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,600 well. And then in 2019 I did four. 114 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,600 And then in 2007, my first season as well as 2011, I just 115 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,680 did two. But yeah, there's a yeah, it's 116 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,400 it's I I I I spaced it out a little bit better this time 117 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:29,280 because I did those five shows in the span of seven weeks, 8 118 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:33,320 weeks. So it wasn't like 09 or my first 119 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:39,640 show was in I wanna say April or May and then my last show was in 120 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,080 September. That was one of the harder 121 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,880 seasons I've ever done. So yeah, I, I, I, I I kind of 122 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,200 picked my spots a little better. I got in shape and then I just 123 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,280 did all the shows that were remaining in the calendar year. 124 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:54,720 But yeah, you're you're not wrong, man. 125 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,360 I don't know if you ever listened to Iron Culture, but we 126 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:04,960 had Natalie Hayes on, who won the women's pro bodybuilding and 127 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:06,680 amateur bodybuilding at them GIF Worlds. 128 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,720 But that was I think the 10th or 11th show she did that season. 129 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,560 She's been competing the whole year since, I wanna say May or 130 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:18,120 June and just like all over the States, you know? 131 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,880 So yeah, like there are some people out there who make five 132 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,160 shows look like just half their season, but that's that's a rare 133 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:26,840 breed, man. She's obviously a rare breed. 134 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,040 Yeah, that's wild. I mean, five shows. 135 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:30,920 That was the most I've ever done in the season, for sure. 136 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,480 And most of mine were like flip flopping from one end of the US 137 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,600 to the other. And I was driving to most of 138 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,280 them with my wife and 15 month old kid. 139 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,000 So we were like going back and forth, staying at Koas and just 140 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,680 total nonsense man. But it was quite the journey. 141 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,760 But yeah, I don't think I'd want to do any more than five shows 142 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,800 by any means. Yeah, dude, I'm trying to think 143 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,360 what I'd prefer to because it's in some ways driving is worse 144 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,560 and better, right? You know, like you you have to 145 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,400 stop to. I mean obviously with a 15 month 146 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,400 old that's a whole nother like you win let's we'll just 147 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,840 establish that if if this is a a who who who had a, you know, a 148 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,200 harder season than you already win just with being a parent. 149 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:14,480 But but yeah, like the the trip to the States from New Zealand 150 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,480 is you got to think about it 'cause we're like a day ahead. 151 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,360 And depending upon how you go and where you end up going, it's 152 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,320 almost a full day of travel. You know, like it's a 12 hour or 153 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,880 13 hour flight or 14 hour flight depending on whether you're 154 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,960 flying into San Francisco, LA or Houston, or if you fly into New 155 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,679 York, that's like a 16 hour flight, you know? 156 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:39,840 So yeah, we're kind of not near anything except Australia down 157 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,679 here, but driving across the state, same thing, man. 158 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:44,720 It's like, you know, that's that's not a short trip by any 159 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:46,880 means either. And with these threaded glutes, 160 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,680 I don't know about you, but I can't sit down for that long, 161 00:08:49,680 --> 00:08:51,720 even on a cushioned seat, without just getting 162 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,960 uncomfortable. Yeah, nothing's comfortable when 163 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,520 you're this lean for sure. But yeah, it was, it was, it was 164 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,800 quite the season, man. But I'll kind of want to talk 165 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,080 about, you know you mentioned, I want to talk a lot of things 166 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,080 here, but you mentioned that this was 14 years in the making 167 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,240 of getting your pro card. I was at 17 years. 168 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,280 I didn't hear you right there. Yeah, so I did my first INBF 169 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,640 show in 2009. So, like, if we were to talk 170 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,320 about how long have I actually been trying to get on stage to 171 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,680 do it? It's 14 years, but I actually 172 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:27,000 attended my first INBFWNBF show in Augusta, GA. 173 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:34,280 I was a test judge in O Six at Rodney Hilaire's show that was 174 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,920 going on there. And that was what I I like, 175 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,680 became fully aware of what natural bodybuilding was and 176 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:42,920 looked like because I was kind of only aware of what was in the 177 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,600 magazines and the, you know, the NPCIFPB scene. 178 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,280 I'd only started lifting in O4 and I started getting 179 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:54,000 competitive aspirations in O6 and and like becoming a big fan 180 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,040 of the sport. And then attending that show 181 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,320 meeting Rodney Hilaire starting to follow the I, MB, FW, MB, F 182 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,120 reading natural bodily fitness and magazine for all the old 183 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,960 school people who remember the pre social media era. 184 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,520 And then seeing the overall winner who I would describe him 185 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,040 as like a taller Natty Tom Platts. 186 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,400 He just headed this incredible legs and he was diced. 187 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,640 And mind you in in O Six there was not a lot of people who were 188 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,120 bringing strata glut to the stage. 189 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:28,040 So he had a look that I did not associate with being drug free. 190 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,720 But he had a size and you know, I knew what you had to do to get 191 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,640 on stage and the testing and the quality of the people. 192 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,600 And I was just like, wow. And it shifted my perspective 193 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,840 entirely. You know, I was thinking about, 194 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,160 well, maybe one day I'll have to consider using PEDs if I wanna 195 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,560 be competitive at that level. Let's see how far I can take it. 196 00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:50,600 And then I just like, you know what? 197 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,760 Now I can draw a line in the sand where my, my competitive 198 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,760 mindset won't push me to do things that I'm maybe I'm 199 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,640 eventually uncomfortable with. Because I know that if I had my 200 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,120 training right and my nutrition right and I couldn't, you know, 201 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,160 reach my competitive aspirations, I would probably 202 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,840 end up doing things that I would rationalize as an enhanced 203 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,000 competitor. That wouldn't be best for my 204 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,800 health, for my longevity, or or my legal status, right? 205 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,520 But like, I don't. I don't think I would have been 206 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,760 striving for a pro card for, you know, depending on how you count 207 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,480 at 14 or, you know, 17 years, if I hadn't had an opportunity to 208 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:28,840 go right now, I can stay natural as a pathway because it's not 209 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,080 like I haven't been frustrated, you know, since in this time 210 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,160 period I've been in a lot of overalls, I've placed second to 211 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,160 a lot of overall winners. And and like you, I've been 212 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,280 very, very close. So I I think I probably would 213 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,360 have made different decisions with my life if I just hadn't 214 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,200 gone to that show. And I'm really glad that I did. 215 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,480 So yeah, competing for it for 14 years, but inspired to do it and 216 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:55,160 had that on my, my main list of of competitive aspirations for 217 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,120 for 1617 years. Yeah. 218 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,160 But the beautiful thing is man, you fall into the lifestyle and 219 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,640 then your day-to-day grind is not predicated on whether or not 220 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,080 you get that pro card. I was actually doing a client 221 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,320 call with a joint client I have with Aaron Orton the other day 222 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,000 and a lot of competitors that I talked to, especially first time 223 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,760 competitors, they they put that pro card on this, on this 224 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,240 pedestal, this is ever elusive pro card and it's like that's 225 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,760 what drives their their intent, their motivation. 226 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,880 It's like they just want to do the show to get my pro card. 227 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,960 Now you and I both are pros. Like not a lot changes when you 228 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,720 earn a pro card. Like what you do as a natural 229 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:33,280 bodybuilder. What wakes you up in the morning 230 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,160 to do what it takes shouldn't be predicated on whether or not you 231 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:39,720 have a pro card. Like you just simply fall in 232 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,360 love with the lifestyle and the time passes anyways and then 233 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,400 eventually you have enough time in the saddle and you earn that 234 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,200 pro card. But like that should never be 235 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:49,520 the driving factor, I don't think. 236 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,480 Yeah, I think I I was going to make a joke about the reason I 237 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,840 was one minute late for our podcast as I was getting off the 238 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,920 phone with Nike. And they're we're making the 239 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:03,960 Helm's shoe now that I'm pro. Yeah, Yeah, but it was actually 240 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,520 just because it wasn't recognizing my headphones. 241 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:14,120 The absolutely true, even IFBB pros are most of the time not 242 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,960 experiencing a huge shift in their lives, even though they 243 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,440 are potentially getting far more exposure because it's really 244 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,040 only the top people in the sport. 245 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,040 And these days it's you have to be the top in your sport and to 246 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,800 have a large social media following for that to impact 247 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,040 you. But ultimately you like you 248 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:39,320 said, the lifestyle required to get to that level is the same 249 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,920 that it is required just to do the thing you know. 250 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,080 And then if you happen to have what it takes and the discipline 251 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,360 and all those things and the the talent and and in the years in 252 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,920 the game, you'll get there. But IA 100% agree from a a 253 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,200 motivational perspective. If you're purely focused on an 254 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,440 extrinsic reward, and this is something that I've seen as a 255 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,440 coach, this is something I've experienced personally, and this 256 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,920 is also something that is actually supported by sports 257 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,960 psychology research. Being purely focused on an 258 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:14,080 extrinsic reward is actually less likely to support you in 259 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,400 its achievement, which is, I think, really ironic. 260 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,200 It's actually the focus on the process rather than the outcome 261 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,400 that seems to more consistently result in better acute 262 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,920 performance of the steps leading up to a goal and eventual 263 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,320 achievement of the goal. We've got a ton of data on 264 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,640 intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, so nothing wrong 265 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,560 with having the goal of getting your pro card, but I always tend 266 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,720 to describe it as like you want this layered cake, and the 267 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,160 biggest part of that cake should be a love of the process. 268 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,560 Like you said, living the lifestyle that you know, this is 269 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,760 who you are to some degree and it's probably attached to, you 270 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,040 know, an identity. You know, this is kind of like 271 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,200 your why at the center of everything. 272 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,880 And then you might have other goals that are a mixture of what 273 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,280 people might think of as intrinsic or extrinsic, like I'm 274 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,240 trying to beat myself. It's still an outcome. 275 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:08,120 It's not necessarily a process, but it is not requiring you to 276 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,120 achieve something in terms of replacing that is in the hands 277 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,960 of a panel of judges that you know are subjective in a 278 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,840 subjective sport. And it's not related to who 279 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,280 shows up on the day, which is a huge, you know, randomizer in in 280 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,080 bodybuilding. It is just you know, compared to 281 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:26,960 how you were able to present last time. 282 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,880 And you know from now being 40 and from talking to Jeff and and 283 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,880 my colleagues who are, you know, at the still at the peak of 284 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,280 their their bodybuilding career competitively, but very aware 285 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,920 that they might be at a a twilight phase where they may 286 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,800 not be able to beat the prior version of themselves even that 287 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,640 gets eventually taken away from you like all things in life, you 288 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,720 know, or eventually gonna die. And I think that makes the 289 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:58,000 moments much more special. And it's important to be focused 290 00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,880 on the now. And you know, one of the things 291 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,080 that Jeff has talked about and I've heard other masters 292 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,000 athletes talk about is being the best version of themselves that 293 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,360 they can be. Now, that's all there really is, 294 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,720 is what is happening right now. And it's a luxury. 295 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,920 I've come to see it as I've gotten older, to be able to have 296 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,360 the goal of I'm gonna beat my prior version of myself. 297 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,920 Because eventually all you can do is be your best. 298 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,520 And ultimately, even when you are trying to beat the prior 299 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,760 version of yourself, the only way to do that is to be the best 300 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,880 version of yourself right now and hope that the plan you set 301 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,320 in place and the lifestyle you've been living supports 302 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:32,800 that. And that's kind of like that 303 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,440 smaller second layer of the cake, maybe the icing. 304 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,160 And then the cherry on top is the extrinsic rewards, the 305 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,600 placing and whether that placing comes with a pro card, et 306 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,880 cetera. Because you don't want to be in 307 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,640 the position where you've done everything right. 308 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,680 And if you had those two lower layers, you know, you were 309 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,240 better than your prior season. You had a really great prep. 310 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,360 And if you were focused on the process, you'd be like, damn it, 311 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,040 yeah, I emptied the tank, I emptied the clip. 312 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,520 I did everything I could. I should be proud of myself. 313 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,880 But you get a placing that you that didn't meet your goal and 314 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,200 you see it as a failure or it makes you feel bad about 315 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,560 yourself. I think that is just that's 316 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,119 honestly, it's toxic, you know, for lack of a better word. 317 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,599 And I think that results in some of the, I'll say, displays of 318 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,280 poor professionalism that we sometimes see in our sport, 319 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,400 which I think you know, you're allowed to have a moment, but 320 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,119 just try not to have your phone in your handle. 321 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,240 You're having it. You know where you're 322 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,080 disappointed with the placing or you don't agree with it or you 323 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,040 just need to get it out of your system cuz damn it, you wanted 324 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:34,160 to win. Like that's all good. 325 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,240 And I've had those moments too and fortunately I didn't have 326 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,320 them online. But but I think you wanna be 327 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:46,160 able to at least within days, if maybe not weeks, reflect and go. 328 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,920 I'm proud of what I did because you know, I I either was the 329 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,360 best version of myself that I've ever been that I could have 330 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:56,400 been, or I ticked every single box given the constraints of my 331 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,680 life and the the randomness that life threw at me. 332 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,640 And I did my my my best, which is all I can do. 333 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,160 Yeah, I think bodybuilding, natural bodybuilding especially, 334 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:10,720 is a great vehicle to put yourself through those 335 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,400 experiences. Like it's a great metaphor for 336 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,920 life. If you step back and look at me, 337 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,240 this is honestly why I why I do the sport in the 1st place. 338 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,520 Like, if I can know wholeheartedly that I gave the 339 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,600 prep every single thing I could and I didn't hold anything back, 340 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,000 then there is no remorse, regardless of the placing. 341 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,600 Honestly, the most relaxed I am in life when I'm sitting there 342 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,680 backstage waiting for my turn to go on, because at that point 343 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,400 everything's done. Like, I literally just go out 344 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,200 and and execute. But everything has been done up 345 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,800 to that point. And if you can be at total 346 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,080 complete peace for yourself in that moment, then regardless of 347 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,280 what the judges say, regardless of what the other competitors 348 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,360 bring to the table, you have no no say in that. 349 00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:53,240 Like you can be at peace with yourself and what you brought, 350 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,680 and then nobody can take that from you. 351 00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:58,920 Well said. Yeah, I I totally agree. 352 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,760 It's easier said than done, but it sounds like you've got that 353 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,120 mentality down pat. Interesting thing for me. 354 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:07,480 Yeah. Yeah, it it, it's something you 355 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,040 do have to try at, right? You know, yeah, I'm pretty good 356 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,920 on game day. But I would say the few days 357 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,240 leading up to game day this season particularly because I 358 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,480 really kind of put my cherry on top out there. 359 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,240 You know I let myself feel like I was gonna be a competitor this 360 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,160 season knowing that ultimately yeah, like I I was confident 361 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,320 enough in my intrinsic attachment to the sport that it 362 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:33,760 is who I am. It is a lifestyle. 363 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:38,120 All those things that we both share in our mentality that I 364 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:39,960 I'll be doing this no matter what. 365 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,680 You know I'd be I'd be lifting if there was an apocalypse you 366 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:44,680 know. And I'd be probably going 367 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,080 through seasons and setting up a timer and and comparing pictures 368 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,920 and posting them on my own wall if I was, you know, and I am 369 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,520 legend kind of Will Smith scenario because it's just what 370 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,160 I do and it's the way I push myself and express myself, you 371 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,960 know, both creatively and in terms of, you know, honing my 372 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,880 blade as as a human, I guess you could say. 373 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,200 But I also do have competitive goals, right? 374 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,320 You know, And when I brought them out to the forefront and I 375 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,080 was like, listen, I'm gonna have the goal to get my pro card this 376 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,800 season and it's something I'm gonna put out there. 377 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,400 I care about it and I'll be disappointed if I don't get it. 378 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,600 I think that's OK so long as you've got that anchor of 379 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,080 intrinsic motivation. But I tell you what the double 380 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,640 edged sword to that was. You know, I would get nervous a 381 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,760 few days out of each one of the shows and I would find myself in 382 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,400 the week of peak week like, oh, there's there's something riding 383 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,240 on this and I want to win. It gave me another little boost 384 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,640 of motivation at times when I'm deep in prep and I'm feeling 385 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,200 really dragged down in the middle of a workout or middle of 386 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,840 trying to get my my 15,000 steps or whatever it was for the day. 387 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,200 And that was great. But you know, sometimes two days 388 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,080 out I'm, you know, I've got work to do. 389 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,520 I've got a, you know, pack. I've got to travel. 390 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,560 I've got to be a present husband, friend, supervisor for 391 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,200 my students or what have you or you know do some administrative 392 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,720 work for for something. And I'm thinking about, you 393 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,840 know, like posing God, you know, like there there was a certain 394 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:17,200 level of anxiety, slash, apprehension, slash nervousness 395 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,960 that I didn't, I I I didn't surprise me, but I didn't 396 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,880 anticipate it when I brought my competitive goals to the 397 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,160 forefront. So that's going to be something 398 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:26,720 that I get to work on in the future. 399 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:29,560 But I do think I'm going to have less of that now competing in 400 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,960 the pro ranks because I kind of feel just privileged to be 401 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:35,240 there, although I still want to move up the ranks. 402 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,400 It's it's it's a different feeling I think competing as a 403 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,040 pro versus for a pro card until you get to the point where 404 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,320 you're trying to you know win titles and and place in the 405 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,680 podium and things like that. No, I totally. 406 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,000 Agree man, like figuring out, like when you put yourself out 407 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,640 there, there is this, especially when you're, you know, seen as 408 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,360 an expert and an influencer and there's so many eyes on you from 409 00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:58,840 the accountability standpoint. There is that added pressure And 410 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,080 something that I did different with this prep is I had the 411 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,120 primary objective being to become the leanest man alive, 412 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,160 totally independent of the competitions. 413 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,360 The competitions were just kind of in tandem to that goal, and I 414 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:16,000 think that worked well from a psychological standpoint because 415 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:21,440 I put that conditioning as the forefront and then the I timed 416 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,640 it such that the competitions just were were there by 417 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,360 happenstance, so to speak. But it may have also been kind 418 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:31,720 of a detriment because like my last two shows, I was leaner 419 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,240 than I was at the Washington show. 420 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,800 But I I may not have been as filled out and just brought that 421 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,200 fullness because I was on such a quest to get leaner than I was 422 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,320 at the Washington show. So from a psychological 423 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:44,720 standpoint, I think it worked to my benefit. 424 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,520 But if I'm looking at it strictly from a competitive 425 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,440 standpoint, what it looked like on show day and may have 426 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,560 benefited more by not being, you know, trying to get as lean for 427 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,920 that Leanest Man Live title and just focus more on the 428 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,480 competitions. Yeah, dude, There. 429 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,040 I think there is a point where you're down to, I'll say, as 430 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,160 lean as you were at the Washington because you were 431 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,120 peeled, where even getting leaner, you don't necessarily 432 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,240 look leaner because of what you might have to do. 433 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,640 And the fact that like, you know, bro, like you probably had 434 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:18,680 like 100 grams of of subcutaneous fat on your body. 435 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,000 Yeah, you know, and. And how much of that can you 436 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,680 lose? What do you have to do to lose 437 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:23,920 it? And at that point, it's so 438 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,240 spread out, like, can you even see the difference? 439 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,800 Because I don't know if you were the leanest man alive, but you 440 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,400 were absolutely on the Benjamin Schuster, Dirk Emmerich level. 441 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,880 And I think at that point the difference between who looks 442 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,240 leaner comes more down to OK, who got that lean and then who 443 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,360 has the development to show it. You know, So totally. 444 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,520 Yeah. Like I I, I imagine maybe if 445 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,280 your goal was a little different and you could have been more 446 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,160 objective or if you had someone in your corner who was being you 447 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,960 know, objective which is the value of coaching, they would 448 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,120 say, right we've ticked that box let's eat up. 449 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,440 And and you could have potentially looked leaner even 450 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,920 if you put on another 10 grams of of fat, which is a, you know, 451 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,720 the whole eating up into a show kind of thing, which is, which 452 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,680 is really interesting. And I think people don't realize 453 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:09,760 that. But yeah, dude, you brought the 454 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,600 conditioning, that's for sure. I appreciate it. 455 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,160 Man, I I kind of want to touch on reverse dining because both 456 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:19,400 you and I ended our season with the you know that world show 457 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,480 which was the 19th of November. Now, both of us are 9 weeks post 458 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,400 show, and I know you do a great job about talking about reverse 459 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,960 dining, and I've listened to a few of your podcasts, I've 460 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,040 listened to a few of the debates. 461 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,200 There's a bunch of controversy around the best protocol around 462 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,280 reverse dining. But honestly, I'm just glad that 463 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:38,880 people are talking about it because that is one of the 464 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,800 topics that just often times gets left out of the 465 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,760 conversation entirely. And so many people, you know, 466 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,760 fail to reverse properly and they're that's what triggers 467 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,320 eating disorder. That's what triggered eating 468 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,120 disorders for me in the very beginning and kind of led to my 469 00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:58,920 current dietary lifestyle. So that said, post show what 470 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,960 what has been your protocol with you reverse that you're you're 471 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,160 about what, 10 lbs above stage weight right now. 472 00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:10,920 Yeah, I'm actually right now I am in the 8586 kilo range which 473 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:18,440 is like one 87188 and I was on stage at 79 and a like 175. 474 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,400 So I'm like, yeah, just a little over £10 up, 9 weeks post show. 475 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,040 I'm about the same. Yeah. 476 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:32,840 You know, and I'm, I would say that's maybe a little more than 477 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,120 half body fat, you know, if we were to try to just kinda 478 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:39,760 compare of and I've put the videos out there and no one's 479 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,960 giving me pushback on that. So I don't think I'm delusional. 480 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,360 Yeah. So and I do think some of that 481 00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:48,400 is maybe regaining loss muscle tissue. 482 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,400 A lot of that is regaining lean mass that is not necessarily 483 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,840 muscle mass totally, which we'll get into in a moment, some 484 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,640 really kind of physiologically interesting mechanisms of what 485 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,960 quote, UN quote, metabolic adaptation is. 486 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,680 And I do think some of that is actually gaining new muscle 487 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,480 tissue, which is pretty cool and I will take that all day. 488 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,080 I I wouldn't expect it and I I don't expect it as a coach and I 489 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,680 haven't expected in prior seasons. 490 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,600 But I think the unique circumstances where I've been 491 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,160 juggling being a strength athlete and a bodybuilder for 492 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,920 the entirety of my career now, moving purely into bodybuilding 493 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,240 training and doing my recovery well has actually enabled me to 494 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,360 put on some some new tissue, new lean mass I haven't had 495 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:34,800 previously in this phase, but you know, realistic only 496 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,000 probably a couple pounds. So anyway, the the approach that 497 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,400 we've popularized at 3D Muscle Journey, we've made a very 498 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:48,080 distinctive, purposeful goal of changing the terminology of 499 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,680 saying reverse diet to recovery diet. 500 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,800 And I'd be lying if it was like a firm hard difference that we 501 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,120 could, you know, write down and many people would describe what 502 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:00,160 we do as recovery diet as a reverse diet. 503 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,920 And it's not that I'm I I'm a stickler on the terminology and 504 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,840 I'm fine with people calling it whatever they want. 505 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,600 But I think saying recovery diet I think helps people 506 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,800 psychologically understand that it is not just the process of 507 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,760 increasing calories out of the diet and putting some of the 508 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,440 body fat back on. But this is a phase where the 509 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,560 goal is recovery. And sometimes even when you know 510 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,760 you need to put back on body fat and you've accepted that and you 511 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,120 know you need to increase your numbers when it's reversing and 512 00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:34,960 you think of a certain pace and you don't want to go too fast, 513 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,080 you will sometimes be unnecessarily or overly 514 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,560 restrictive because you have some arbitrary quantitative 515 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,680 numbers for your either your macros that you're trying to hit 516 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:53,080 your calories, your body weight and over a certain period of 517 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,320 time where you're slowing down your recovery. 518 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,200 And I think when we call it a recovery diet and from a 519 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,120 coaching perspective or even a self coach perspective, if 520 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:05,480 you're thinking of it this way, when you think the goal is 521 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:10,040 recovery, you can be like you know what, I am on track to gain 522 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,760 weight a little faster than anticipated. 523 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,000 But when I was doing it slower, I couldn't sleep and my libido 524 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,960 was still tanked or I still have a menorrhea. 525 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,720 My my menstrual cycle isn't happening regularly regardless 526 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,600 of what we anticipated might be the right pace so. 527 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,080 So we purposely use the language of the recovery diet because I 528 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,800 think some not all iterations of the reverse diet especially kind 529 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,200 of like the the version one point O. 530 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,760 They had some narratives around them that were much more focused 531 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:47,120 on the staying lean while eating more food rather than thinking 532 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,760 of this being a time to recover maximally so that we could have 533 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,360 a productive improvement season or offseason or whatever you 534 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,120 wanna call it. Yeah, and a lot of kind of the, 535 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,200 the marketing and sales tactics to be frank around some of the 536 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,840 early reverse dieting were very appealing to the mindset of a 537 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,240 competitor Towards the end of the diet like you, your, your 538 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,400 goal is to be the leanest man alive and that means your entire 539 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,960 focus that just you know gets enhanced by the process of 540 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,840 contest prep was on like well, alright, do I have another line 541 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,960 at the top of my glutes? Like do I have a vein in my 542 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,680 adductor now right? And everyone has that to some 543 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,000 degree and it's challenging to turn that ship around when it 544 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,920 has so much momentum and time behind it to go right now, the 545 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,760 goal is to purposely gain body fat. 546 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,360 It's incredibly and also you're in very hard, very hard. 547 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,920 And also we are super hungry. At the end of contest prep, we 548 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,440 are physiologically starving and the natural response is to be 549 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,680 more food focused, to think about the flavor of a carrot, as 550 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,640 I've said a few times on podcast, which is just a 551 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,680 ridiculous thing to think when you're 20 lbs over stage weight 552 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,200 deep in the offseason and you're like, I don't really want to eat 553 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,840 at all, but it is very different, but it's the reality 554 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,840 at the end. So So when you sell someone, eat 555 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,480 more food, when you love food and stay lean, I think 556 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,280 competitors eat it up. But that is not the goal of this 557 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:15,960 phase. The goal for someone who is 558 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,920 doing a reverse diet after a season is to as efficiently as 559 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,480 possible recover. So they have as productive as an 560 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,080 offseason as possible. And there is physiological 561 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,320 recovery that needs to happen, and there's also behavioral and 562 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,680 psychological recovery that needs to happen. 563 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,320 So that's the first point I want to make is that I'm going to use 564 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,520 the terminology recovery diet because I think it gets at the 565 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,920 heart of what the actual goal is, and I think it makes it 566 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,280 psychologically more palatable when you're using that the the, 567 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,760 the appropriate terminology. No, I can totally. 568 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,680 Get behind that. I think terminology is 569 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,000 important. I've not. 570 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,120 I've talked about reverse dieting in the same context of 571 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,640 it being primarily focused towards recovery, so I don't 572 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,600 have a negative stigma in my mind towards it. 573 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,320 But I think when it comes to reaching the masses for the 574 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,080 right reasons, calling a recovery, that makes all the 575 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,720 sense in the world, so it's by all means use that terminology. 576 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:11,680 Perfect. Well said. 577 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,880 Yeah, I I agree, yeah. It's not something I don't like 578 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,640 to ascribe negative connotations to things when people don't mean 579 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,760 it by any means. And so, so yeah, I, I, yeah, 580 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,760 it's not like a a, a finger waving thing. 581 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,160 It's just let's let's think about you know what kind of 582 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:28,840 messaging and what we're trying to accomplish. 583 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,520 So yeah, the recovery diet, the way we describe it at 3 DMJ is 584 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:39,160 kind of like what seems to fit most people is that within one 585 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,120 to two months post show we're trying to get people. 586 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,920 This is an outcome basis and I'll talk about the process in a 587 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,840 second. Somewhere between 5 to 10% over 588 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,640 stage weight once their body weights like stabilized and 589 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,200 that's when we say stage weight, we mean you know a more filled 590 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,200 out version not like the lowest body weight you had on you know 591 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,600 some two week out rough dehydrated day where you finally 592 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,000 pooped the day before or whatever it is. 593 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,880 But but yeah, like maybe looking at your, your average weight the 594 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,600 week of peak week or your your stage weight unless you did some 595 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,840 kind of massive like back load or something like that. 596 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,680 So that is a goal like that. That's a reasonably broad range 597 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,040 when you think about it and time frame, but it's also fast. 598 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,880 And what we saw was that when we were trying to do the more 599 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,720 regimented, strict reverse diet on the more extreme end, like, 600 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,600 hey, let's go up 500 calories from the end of Prep, cut your 601 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,440 cardio in half and then we'll just increase, you know, maybe 5 602 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,800 grams of fat, 10 to 25 grams of carbs when your body weight is, 603 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,840 you know, not going up too quickly. 604 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,600 We had like an abysmal success rate. 605 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,720 And people were really starting to lose self efficacy because 606 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,120 they would try to follow it and then they would go off the rails 607 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,880 and it would create this almost binge purge cycle. 608 00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:03,160 You know, this this kind of controlled damn right down, 609 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,800 right, almost bulimic kind of response, not actually purging 610 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,600 in a sense of making themselves vomit. 611 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,360 But, you know, actual technical clinical bulimia does not 612 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,280 require vomiting. It just requires binge purge 613 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,660 cycle. So someone would, quote, UN 614 00:33:16,660 --> 00:33:19,920 quote, below the reverse diet and have this massive blowout 615 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,000 where they're supposed to eat 2800 calories and they get asked 616 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,200 to go out to a restaurant and they go, OK, sure, you know, I 617 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,360 can work in this appetizer and they're at 2500 calories. 618 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,200 And man, that appetizer tastes good. 619 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,920 They're with friends and family. They rationalize for a second. 620 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,400 You know, why am I being so strict with this? 621 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,360 I can make it up tomorrow. The next thing you know, they're 622 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,520 they're at home having eaten 5000 calories and feeling 623 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,120 terrible about themselves and wondering what happened to that 624 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,880 competitor who had so much willpower that they could grind 625 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,640 themselves to the point of being, you know, striated 626 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,600 glutes, you know, and then being recognized and applauded and 627 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,320 seeing success because of their conditioning. 628 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,640 And now they can't stop themselves from having a second 629 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,640 deserted Applebee's. Like, it just makes you feel 630 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,800 like you've lost something. And that's a terrible place to 631 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:05,800 be. I've been there. 632 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,360 I've, I've coached people through it. 633 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,159 And what I realized was that I shouldn't be coaching people 634 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:13,520 through this. This is it's it. 635 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,440 I'm setting up competitors for failure. 636 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,520 And when we move to a model where we're saying, hey, you 637 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,679 know, these these quote, UN quote slip UPS are probably just 638 00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:24,320 an indication that you needed to do that. 639 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,280 And instead of 2800 calories, let's have the goal of 3800 640 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,719 calories. You know when you give someone a 641 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,719 very large surplus, you know probably the biggest surplus 642 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,840 that they're gonna have in their their postseason period as they 643 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,360 recover and move into the offseason. 644 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:43,960 And we tell them explicitly the goal is to put on a a healthy 645 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,280 level of body fat to get you kind of back to your lower 646 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,000 intervention point because that's part of the recovery 647 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,280 process. All of a sudden we started 648 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,360 seeing more like 6070% compliance and the the the 649 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,240 remaining 30 to 40% is it just happened a little faster than 650 00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:00,680 we'd want. But it's much easier to coach 651 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,440 someone and say hey you know you're you're recovering faster 652 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,960 than the goal target was. You're doing great, you know, 653 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,440 because really the only thing we want to avoid is being on either 654 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,880 end of the spectrum of gaining weight so quickly and putting on 655 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,880 so much body fat that you lose your runway for gaining, you 656 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,240 know, and that you find yourself three months post show and you 657 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:25,800 need to do a cut or a mini cut. That's rough because hey, you're 658 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,160 probably not fully recovered and we can talk about what's going 659 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,000 to dictate recovery, but you're you're, you know psychologically 660 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,520 it's really tough to do a cut that close to the prep. 661 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,960 You feel like a failure and and it's it's just very challenging. 662 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,720 Like I said that ship turns around slowly to look up one day 663 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:45,440 and be like man, it was not that long ago, I like the way I look 664 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,840 and now I hate it. So you don't want to be there. 665 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,960 You don't want to have a plan that sets you up to essentially 666 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,120 spend your whole offseason in and out of mini cuts to get back 667 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,080 to something that is more reasonable and and productive. 668 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,920 But you also don't want to successfully do an extreme 669 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,280 reverse diet where you're actually holding your own 670 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,520 recovery back and you're spinning your wheels. 671 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,920 And I think that's something that more experienced 672 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,480 competitors, competitors with a little more of a restrictive 673 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,800 kind of restrained eating, you know lifestyle that had that 674 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,720 probably before they even got into physique sport and 675 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,480 competitors which is quite common who might have a history 676 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,160 of disordered eating or even a full blown eating disorder 677 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,120 before they came to the sport that that that can't happen and 678 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,680 I have seen that. So we want to be just between 679 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,720 those two. We don't want to slow down a 680 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:41,080 recovery and we don't want to blow way past it so that we're 681 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,720 we're, you know, having to cut because both of those 682 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,160 essentially from a performance perspective, just make you have 683 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,880 less time in the offseason to make productive improvements in 684 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,400 your physique. I completely agree and I've kind 685 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,080 of played around with both ends of the spectrum as well. 686 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:58,920 I've had clients that have played around with both ends of 687 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,880 the spectrum. I want to talk about nuts and 688 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,000 bolts of how you get there in the most efficient manner 689 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,640 possible. But I kind of want to touch on 690 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,080 your personal reverse diet right now from a psychological 691 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,960 standpoint because you and I are both in it and you and I both 692 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:15,760 have been doing this for quite some time. 693 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,440 And I would, I would venture to say I don't want to put words 694 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,120 into your mouth, but I would venture to say that you nine 695 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,680 weeks post show still have some psychological tension with food 696 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,320 and it's you haven't got it all figured out 100% yet, like you 697 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:31,720 still struggle with that to some degree. 698 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,040 Is that a fair statement? Yeah, yeah. 699 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,440 I'd say I'm like, nearly back. But like, just last night, for 700 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,200 example, I found myself reaching for a smaller spoon to eat Greek 701 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,120 yogurt. You know, 'cause I wanted to 702 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:45,840 take more bites and I'm like, all right, I'm not. 703 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,000 I'm not all the way back yet. Have you had? 704 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,520 Some some pretty high days like since the show have you had some 705 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,840 days that were you're just like like I'm looking at my data 706 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:58,000 right now and just from a very high level, what I tend to do is 707 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,080 I'll try and lean on a bunch of the the habits that I've done 708 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,920 throughout the prep because I feel like when you change course 709 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,880 180° like it just really screws with you psychologically. 710 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,160 So I've still posed. I've still practiced my routine. 711 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,040 I've still tracked all my intake. 712 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,560 I've allowed myself much more flexibility. 713 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,840 But I like to keep some of those habits in place because it just 714 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,440 I'm I'm able to free up my mental bandwidth of what the 715 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,680 prep and the shows looming put on me. 716 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,680 I'm able to maintain those habits, led to my success, but 717 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,920 with so much more mental freedom that I can stay locked in and 718 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,600 productive with everything else in my life while still leaning 719 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,320 on those habits. So what I do is, may I'll 720 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,840 increase my intake on a daily basis, but I'll gradually reduce 721 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,160 what I'm allowing myself on the refeed days and kind of playing 722 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,280 around with the weekly averages based off of how my body's 723 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,880 responding. But I had several, not several. 724 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,800 I probably had four days or so that were 8000 calories. 725 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,200 Seventy 508,000 calories. So a lot of food. 726 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,880 But I was tracking everything. I was tracking my sodium. 727 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,640 I was weighing everything out because I wanted to see how my 728 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,040 body was responding. I was going at CGM when I was 729 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,280 eating those large boluses and I feel like I am able to relate 730 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,280 more with people that are struggling with it for the first 731 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,880 time. But I don't not struggle with 732 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,440 it. Like there's times where I'm 733 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,080 just like, man, I could really eat an extra steak right now, 734 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,720 and sometimes I'll allow myself that. 735 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,000 But I think if you're looking at it objectively and seeing the 736 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,120 numbers, seeing how anybody responding, that for me is 737 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,960 better than to just eat intuitively and have no idea why 738 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,720 my body's doing what it's doing. Yeah, I I think so to answer 739 00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:40,400 your question broadly, yes, I have maintained some structure 740 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:45,400 and yes I have had some high days, not not that high but I 741 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,040 would say so for example the night of the of world's when I 742 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,400 ended my season we went to Cheesecake Factory and I had 743 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:53,640 Cheesecake. You know that right there is 744 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,600 like 1500 calories on top of you know the the dinner that I had 745 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,640 that was probably, you know with the the, the skinny Long Island 746 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,840 I see I got probably. Close to 800. 747 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,840 So I I think I, I put down, you know, 2300 calories in one 748 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:08,680 sitting. Yeah. 749 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,600 However, I think I'd only had 800 calories on the day because 750 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,720 that's kind of the way I roll in the peak weeks is I I load early 751 00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:19,040 and then I clean up nicely and I'm, I'm not eating much on game 752 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:20,800 day. So I think of the day of the 753 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,560 competition only had about 3000. And then the next day we had Big 754 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,760 Breakfast to do a photo shoot. We had dinner out. 755 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,360 I was probably in the three thousands and then when I 756 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,160 noticed that my recovery was a little too slow based upon the 757 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,800 initial, you know, kind of guesstimates I started with, I 758 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,560 did move to like, hey, let's eat on average 3000 calories, but it 759 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,360 wasn't 3000 calories every day. I probably had a 4000 calorie 760 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,720 day at a Christmas party, but I I think probably the highest 761 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,640 high day I would have had was around 4K. 762 00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:57,360 Yeah, and I'm not a metabolic monster by any means. 763 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,440 You know, my maintenance energy intake when I'm lean is probably 764 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,320 closer to 2000 and 2100 despite being a middle weight. 765 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,880 But yeah, I definitely had those days. 766 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,120 And from a what? What kind of behavior 767 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,560 scaffolding did I maintain? The big ones that I maintain are 768 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:21,080 tracking step count, weighing in every morning and maintaining 769 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,320 the same eating structure and schedule. 770 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:30,120 So qualitatively someone who is not, you know, thinking about 771 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,400 the, the calories in the food I'm eating would not notice a 772 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,440 big change in my behavior. You know, they're gonna see a 773 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,480 different choice of the of a fruit that I eat at lunch and a 774 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,480 second fruit. They're gonna see a different 775 00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:47,080 brand of Greek yogurt that I eat before bed that has, you know, 776 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:48,960 higher fat or higher carbs, right. 777 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,800 And they're gonna see me going to the the same cafes with my 778 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,480 wife where I get breakfast, but there's gonna be different 779 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,360 choices of of of what I get. You know, instead of it being 780 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,200 smoked salmon with eggs on toast, it might be, you know, a 781 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,720 bowl of oatmeal with fruit and some smoked salmon, right. 782 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,920 So the way I live my life is becomes different, you know, and 783 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:16,040 and instead of dinner being something that is mostly 784 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,320 vegetables in a protein source, it'll be vegetable the protein 785 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:24,520 source in a carbon fat source. So, but so So for me, I maintain 786 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,280 what we call like the default diet which is more so the the 787 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,880 plug and play options. But what I plug in is gonna have 788 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,840 higher calories, higher carbs, higher higher fat at each meal 789 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,720 and everything else is maintained. 790 00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:41,600 I I didn't take it as far as you with practicing posing but I did 791 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:49,560 do a a six week post like six weeks recovery mark check in 792 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,440 with Brian. So that was another thing that I 793 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,760 intentionally was like hey Brian Minor one of the three DMJ 794 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:55,880 coaches. Let's let's continue a coaching 795 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,680 relationship where I'm checking in once a month tracking data 796 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,240 have a spreadsheet. So I kind of have that same 797 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,960 behavior pattern because I was checking in with Berto during 798 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,040 prep as it's kind of like my my overseer my guidance. 799 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,440 And so all of those things absolutely maintain a certain 800 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,360 structure. And I think that helps 801 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:21,880 tremendously because you when you remove that structure, it is 802 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,160 very easy to rationalize and just to slip up and to have that 803 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,160 turn into something that kind of goes off the rails. 804 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,600 And I think the way you can tell whether or not you're a more 805 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,720 mature competitor, which I think is defined by living the 806 00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:39,240 bodybuilding lifestyle in season and offseason, is how similar 807 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:42,120 qualitatively, again, not in terms of energy intake or body 808 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:47,560 fat like on you how similar your offseason and season look from a 809 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:52,360 behavioral perspective and competitors who are relatively 810 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,720 early in their career. It is a really big deviation 811 00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:58,040 from what they might have been doing prior to getting into 812 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,720 bodybuilding to live the quote UN quote lifestyle. 813 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,360 They do it during prep, but they find it fatigues them, You know, 814 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,760 maybe they don't want to eat those same foods, they don't 815 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,920 want to have that same food structure. 816 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,360 They want to be more flexible with when they train things like 817 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,560 that and and that's OK and it does take time to kind of just 818 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,040 ingrain the habits of being a bodybuilder day in and day out 819 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,760 cuz it is quite an abnormal lifestyle which you know it is 820 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,840 what it is but but once you do it without thinking about it 821 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,160 that is a good sign. So when I have a competitor, and 822 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,800 this is often more common in first or second time competitors 823 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,800 or those who had a maybe a history of being overweight and 824 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,440 the first time they got lean was in the course of contest prep. 825 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,360 When they are feeling like to recover, they need to let go of 826 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,640 the structure. That tells me that we have work 827 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,760 to do in the offseason and they're not quite there yet. 828 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,600 And there's a big risk. You know, those are the people 829 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,920 who tend to like myself. In my first season, I was a 830 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,920 skinny kid who just ate everything And then I started 831 00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,480 bodybuilding. And all of a sudden I kind of 832 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,560 locked in all these behaviors that were totally foreign to me 833 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,120 and I hadn't done for my entire life, you know, And then all of 834 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:09,400 a sudden at 20, I guess I was 23 in my first contest season when 835 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,600 I started it, I'm drastically changing everything because for 836 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,360 me, the offseason bodybuilding was just the seafood diet, you 837 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,320 know? So when I came off of that back 838 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,000 to normal quote UN quote eating, I thought I'd just go back to 839 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,160 the seafood diet. I'm a skinny kid. 840 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,680 It'd be fine. I'm not gonna gain weight. 841 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:30,040 And I found myself two months post show, 48 lbs up and for the 842 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,160 first time in my life, actually looking in the mirror and going, 843 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,160 I'm over fat. You know, Like I don't this is 844 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,160 not an experience I've had and struggling with not being able 845 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,480 to put down the, you know, the fork. 846 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:47,920 So that was a a very eye opening experience and probably a good 847 00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,960 one that I had because now I I I knew like no one's exempt, not 848 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,800 even the naturally skinny. You know, people who come to the 849 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,800 sport who never had to think about food issues like the sport 850 00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,400 will bring it to you if if you didn't already have it. 851 00:45:59,720 --> 00:46:01,760 Yeah, no, I totally. Agree. 852 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,360 I think leaning into those habits that led to the success 853 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,320 in the 1st place like you're doing yourself a disservice if 854 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,760 you deviate from them entirely with with your recovery diet 855 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,720 protocol. What what do you consider the 856 00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:18,120 quote UN quote endeavor like? When does that conclude? 857 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,320 When you reach a point physiologically where your 858 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,640 hormones are stable and your body fat is at your running 859 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,280 average throughout a building phase? 860 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,760 Are you looking at it more from a psychological standpoint? 861 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,200 Like what is the the end marker of that recovery diet? 862 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:34,920 Great question. And I would say that the true 863 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,400 end of it is when the person has behaviorally got back to a kind 864 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,760 of quote UN quote baseline. And I would say that is gonna be 865 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,080 subjectively determined. It's where they're not 866 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,800 experiencing lethargy, which tends to come into prep. 867 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:54,480 They're not experiencing signs physiologically of suppressed 868 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,640 hormonal systems. Very easy to check in women, you 869 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,400 know, are you having a regular menstrual cycle in men? 870 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,440 The parallels tend to be are you back to a normal, at least 871 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:11,280 seemingly normal libido and frequency of morning erections? 872 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,440 I think that that's probably a decent proxy. 873 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,800 Is your sleep normalized if it was disrupted? 874 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,120 Those are things to focus on. Are you seeing performance going 875 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,720 up in the gym? Is your body water, indigestion, 876 00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:27,920 normalized? Those are things that that also 877 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,880 kind of look a little funky, like when you start to gain your 878 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,920 weight initially back, it gets distributed in strange ways. 879 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,040 You retain body water when you're trying to digest, even if 880 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,280 you eat the same foods just in higher volumes, you're gonna see 881 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,240 your GI tract need to adapt. I think you're actually 882 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,880 literally regaining smooth muscle in the in the GI tract 883 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,400 and there's probably changes that are going on in the gut 884 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,360 microbiota based upon what you were feeding it in the offseason 885 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,280 versus in season in the amounts. So when all that stuff is 886 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,920 started to normalize, I I think you you are recovered. 887 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,320 One of the most important signs I think though is the food focus 888 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,760 and you this one kind of comes back gradually and you're you're 889 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:12,280 looking for like not grabbing that smaller spoon or not caring 890 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,520 about the flavor of a carrot eventually. 891 00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:18,960 But I think it's important to take a step back and discuss 892 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,600 like what are probably the determinants of recovery. 893 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,840 So we have to acknowledge all of them and sometimes we focus on 894 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:27,880 one to the exclusion of the others. 895 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,440 We get a little too one track in our mind and and the way I see 896 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,160 it is there are three main pieces. 897 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,440 One is actually energy availability. 898 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,080 Are you eating enough relative to your physiological needs 899 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,320 acutely like currently right now, what's your energy intake? 900 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,640 And that somewhat independent of other things can have an impact. 901 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:52,080 Like if you put someone who is very heavy, like you take a 902 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,080 woman with obesity and you put on a really, really low calorie 903 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,080 diet, you will start to quickly see changes in like luteinizing 904 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,280 hormone. And it's possible that they will 905 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,880 actually start to experience a menorrhea regardless of the fact 906 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,760 their body fat is high and it's only been a short period of time 907 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,320 on the diet. So these are potentially 908 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,560 independent factors, but they do impact one another as well. 909 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,160 So there's just how much energy are you eating relative to your 910 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:18,920 body's needs and how active you are. 911 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,600 And you can express that as a value to, you know, relative to 912 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:28,200 lean body mass in calories, you know, after taking away physical 913 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,680 activity, calorie expenditure. And we can see in the 914 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,720 literature, there's even relationships there between 915 00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:35,640 what's called Red's Relative Energy Deficiency Syndrome, 916 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,360 which has massive overlap, what we describe as the consequences 917 00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,640 of contest prep, but not entirely because there are other 918 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,560 factors. We're also not only restricting 919 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,720 calories, we're restricting calories to the point where 920 00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:50,480 we're getting very, very, very, very lean. 921 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,200 And there are data and we have probably the most robust model 922 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,080 to explain what happens when you get leaner than your body would 923 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,960 otherwise like you to be is what's called the dual 924 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,680 intervention model. We've probably heard of the set 925 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,520 point or settling point model and where it kind of assumes 926 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,840 there's like this one body fat percentage that your body likes 927 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,120 to defend. But that's not really what we 928 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:14,520 observe. It's more of a range. 929 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,440 Like most competitors, you talk to them, they'll tell you like 930 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,040 the diet's easy until I get to X body weight, and then it seems 931 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:23,680 like I have to disproportionately do more 932 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:29,040 cardio, reduce my calories, and the same process feels harder 933 00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:33,240 because I'm leaner. You know, one anecdotal 934 00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:37,480 experience I have is that when I'm in a higher deficit, when 935 00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:39,560 I'm in higher body fat, it doesn't affect my sleep. 936 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,600 When I'm in a higher deficit on a given day, when I'm lower in 937 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,760 body fat, I'm going to wake up after 4 hours and have to work 938 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,960 to get back to sleep. And that seems to be a very 939 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,360 predictable thing for my body, not everybody. 940 00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:54,600 There's definitely some interaction between energy 941 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,640 availability and body fat. And when we look at kind of just 942 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,000 the range of individuals and we take a look in understanding 943 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,400 evolutionary biology, we see that there's this what's called 944 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,360 a lower intervention point and upper intervention point, and 945 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,880 humans are much better on average at defending against a 946 00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:13,720 lower versus a higher intervention point. 947 00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:17,480 What that means is that yes, some people, if they get high 948 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,880 enough in body fat percentage, you'll see a disproportionate 949 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,960 increase in energy expenditure. Their meat will go up, non 950 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,400 exercise activity, thermogenesis, their RMR will go 951 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,600 up to a greater degree, even relative to their body mass, and 952 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,120 they will get a suppression of appetite. 953 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:34,720 You know they won't want to eat as much. 954 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,960 So there's this defense of not getting higher in body fat. 955 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,240 Now when you look at other species, like, for example, Gray 956 00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:47,440 animals like mice, they're much better and more consistent at us 957 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,920 than defending against high adiposity levels. 958 00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,000 And that makes sense because if you have a fat mouse, what is it 959 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,520 to a predator, it's slow and tasty, right? 960 00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:57,640 Right. You know, you get, you get that 961 00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,200 good marbled meat, you know, for all those those, those, those 962 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:04,160 keto savages out there called, you know, felines, right? 963 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:09,720 So humans, however, you'll see some people who are very good at 964 00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:12,320 defending against high, high body mass, 'cause, you know, we 965 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,160 are, we are mammals, and we're gonna have some genetic lineage 966 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,080 that's shared with some of the species. 967 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,240 And there was a time where, you know, we had to think about 968 00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:21,040 running up trees and then not getting eaten. 969 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,640 But pretty damn early on in the development of our our our 970 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,000 lineage. We're throwing rocks, we're 971 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,160 throwing sticks, we're getting high ground, we're setting 972 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,240 traps, we're we're hunting in groups. 973 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,680 And we're no longer at threat of predation. 974 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,520 But famine, on the other hand, and starvation absolutely has 975 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,120 been the biggest threat to our species over time, over multiple 976 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:47,240 ice ages and even not necessarily starvation itself. 977 00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:51,760 But being low enough in body weight and having the associated 978 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,280 negative impacts that makes us more vulnerable to pathogens has 979 00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,200 been something that you can look at from an evolutionary biology 980 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,400 perspective. So we're really good at 981 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,120 defending against losing weight. And you can kind of just observe 982 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:05,840 this by looking at the obesity epidemic. 983 00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,720 You know, if we had all these robust systems present in every 984 00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:12,120 single human in in the species, we wouldn't have higher obesity 985 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:16,360 rates. So people struggle, in fact, to 986 00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,320 lose weight and keep it off when there's an abundant food supply. 987 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,040 And we actually see this in other primates. 988 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,360 You know, when you look at captive apes, when you give them 989 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,480 a steady supply of food, they slowly gain body fat and body 990 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,880 weight at almost the same rates as Homo sapiens, which I think 991 00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,040 is really interesting. And that's all the way from, 992 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,200 like lemurs all the way up to, like orangutans, like all kinds 993 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,160 of primates. So anyway, for without getting 994 00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,640 too far off track here, that's another component is your 995 00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:43,960 individual lower intervention point. 996 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:46,640 In being below your lower intervention point. 997 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:51,200 It's gonna keep you in a state of metabolic adaptation, keep 998 00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:54,320 you in a state even when you're eating enough calories, of the 999 00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,440 amount of calories you can eat being a little lower than what 1000 00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,120 they otherwise would have, you're suppressed, if you will. 1001 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,480 It's gonna keep you in a state where you're probably not 1002 00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:03,480 producing the same number of sex hormones. 1003 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,760 It's not gonna be as bad as being on a diet and being lean, 1004 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,400 but they are independently factored in there. 1005 00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:15,560 So those are two factors. And then another factor I think 1006 00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,720 is time. Because there is gonna be a lag 1007 00:54:19,720 --> 00:54:24,920 time before the increase in body fat and the increase in calories 1008 00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,200 is going to result in the changes in your body and the 1009 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,280 changes in your mind. The psychological and 1010 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,840 physiological changes that result in full recovery. 1011 00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,760 So you can quickly gain body fat and you can restore your your 1012 00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:40,520 your calories. But like you and I are 1013 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,760 experiencing, even though we're almost nine weeks post worlds, 1014 00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:48,600 we're not 100% back. Even though I am what I think at 1015 00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,880 my or slightly above my lower intervention point and eating a 1016 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,760 sufficient amount of calories, from experience I think it's 1017 00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:00,160 gonna take me a few more weeks and and the reason I believe 1018 00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,960 that is also based upon last season in 2019, I kind of did 1019 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,000 the upper end of what we consider the recovery diet. 1020 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,480 I was competing around same body weight 80 ish kilos and I got to 1021 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:14,440 90 kilos within six weeks versus 85. 1022 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,480 So I was 11 lbs heavier. I wouldn't say that was all body 1023 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,440 fat and eating a sufficiently higher amount of calories to 1024 00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,360 achieve that in the same time frame, but I felt pretty 1025 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,240 similar. You know, I I don't remember 1026 00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:31,040 being more recovered. I remember sometime in November 1027 00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:35,880 or December after finishing my season in mid August feeling 1028 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:37,680 like 100% and just kind of looking up. 1029 00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:41,400 And we were in New York and I wasn't licking plates, you know, 1030 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,920 And I was like, oh, OK, well, if I was in New York, even in 1031 00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,040 October, this would be, I'd be like, oh wow, this is a great 1032 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:52,160 spot and lots of food, you know. So I think to some degree you 1033 00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,560 don't want to try to rush the process too much because you 1034 00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:56,560 simply can't and it will take time. 1035 00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,440 You know I I didn't spend 41 weeks in an active contest prep 1036 00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,160 phase and expect that six weeks would do it. 1037 00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:05,800 It's just not it's I don't think it's realistic even from a 1038 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,280 behavioral perspective. My whole brain was tilted 1039 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:13,560 towards this one goal of getting as shredded as possible and even 1040 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,040 trying to turn around as fast as I can. 1041 00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,200 I just think it's it's it's setting yourself up with 1042 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,120 unreleased unrealistic expectations to think that you 1043 00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:21,520 can just turn on a dime like that. 1044 00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:25,600 So the markers you're looking for, Yeah, yeah. 1045 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:26,960 So I'm probably repeating myself. 1046 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:31,120 But the markers you're looking for those subjective factors and 1047 00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,640 then some of those objective factors which I think you can 1048 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:35,800 tell without needing to actually get lab work done. 1049 00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:40,240 Like, you know, your sleep quality, menorrhea, you know, 1050 00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:43,680 some of the markers in men parallels for for hormonal 1051 00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,040 status. And then also, are you eating a 1052 00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:51,040 reasonable amount of food? You know, so as an example, even 1053 00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,240 though I have a slightly slower metabolism, quote UN quote, or a 1054 00:56:54,240 --> 00:56:57,440 lower energy expenditure you'd predict, I know in the offseason 1055 00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,280 my maintenance energy intake should be in the mid 2000. 1056 00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:04,040 So like I'm currently eating like 2526 hundred calories. 1057 00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,200 My weight's still going up a little bit and that tells me 1058 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,160 that that's weight I probably need to gain. 1059 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,120 That's indicative of incomplete recovery. 1060 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:16,600 If 187 LB male training five days a week and getting, you 1061 00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,360 know, 8000 steps on average per day is gaining weight on 2500 1062 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,200 calories, I'm not that much of an outlier, right. 1063 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,280 That's indicative of some type of suppression. 1064 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,480 So in those cases, that's another thing. 1065 00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,960 It's like OK, if we set up a reasonable calorie intake based 1066 00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,320 upon your history and what we know is reasonable for your 1067 00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:35,240 activity levels and body mass and we think you're tracking 1068 00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,240 accurately, which I'm pretty confident I am. 1069 00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:39,280 OK. Maybe that's what you need to 1070 00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,120 gain. So that's kind of the objective 1071 00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:42,400 side of it, subjective side of it. 1072 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,240 Then you just have to have the the time, the body fat and the 1073 00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,360 energy intake. And when you focus on any one of 1074 00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,120 those exclusively, you can get yourself into trouble. 1075 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,960 You can think, OK, I've restored my energy intake, why don't I 1076 00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:54,200 feel better? Well, maybe you're you're 1077 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,120 staying too lean. You just eating at maintenance 1078 00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:57,560 isn't going to cut it. That's kind of the old school 1079 00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:59,840 reverse diet. Well, I've gained a lot of body 1080 00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:01,920 fat, but I'm still hungry. Well, you probably did it 1081 00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,080 really, really fast. And gaining more body fat isn't 1082 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:05,720 going to help. This is going to take some time, 1083 00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:07,080 so maybe we need to slow it down. 1084 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:11,080 Or, you know, it's been a bunch of time. 1085 00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,000 Why don't I feel better? Well, if you've been eating too 1086 00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,400 little and if you've not gained enough body fat, So I think you 1087 00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:16,720 have to take all three into account. 1088 00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,120 When it comes to all of that and the ranges, and that's going to 1089 00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,960 be a little bit different for everyone, what what's your take 1090 00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,160 on homeostatic set points? You were touching on it there 1091 00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:30,360 about that being a window. And one of the commonly held 1092 00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:34,800 beliefs is that you can reset that homeostatic set point at 1093 00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,440 higher or lower levels depending on typically how long you stay 1094 00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,920 at a given composition. What is the the the science and 1095 00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,680 the data show on that? The data does not actually 1096 00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:54,040 support that unfortunately. It suggests that really within 1097 00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,880 the two ranges, your upper intervention point and your 1098 00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:02,000 lower intervention point, that there's this basically regulated 1099 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,560 range if you will, or non regulated range where 1100 00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,520 physiologically you could be about the same. 1101 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,320 But what is gonna dictate whether you're floating closer 1102 00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,720 to your upper intervention point or your lower intervention point 1103 00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,680 is largely environmental. And when I say environmental I 1104 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:20,200 mean that in a much broader sense. 1105 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:24,160 That includes your own purposeful changes to your 1106 00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,200 environment like quote UN quote living the bodybuilding 1107 00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,320 lifestyle. But most people are a little 1108 00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:33,400 more of a hazulty of their environment than bodybuilders. 1109 00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,880 We as bodybuilders we architect our environment tremendously. 1110 00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,000 You know all the things we talked about that we're 1111 00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,200 maintaining that's quite abnormal compared to most of the 1112 00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:46,160 members of our species right. So you know athletes they they 1113 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,960 they change their environment to get to a certain outcome but 1114 00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,200 most people and and that this is normal and it would be nice if 1115 00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:54,600 they this is all they had to do. But the modern environment has 1116 00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,880 changed so much that it it leads to this they just live their 1117 00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:01,280 lives and someone living their lives in 2024. 1118 01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:08,320 Versus 1824 in the same country with the same genetics, they're 1119 01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,920 gonna have two different body compositions. 1120 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,480 And there's actually hints of this and some of the research on 1121 01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:20,080 people who are living in more technologically like 1122 01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:22,880 oppositional societies. So, so, so Luddites. 1123 01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:25,280 That sounds a negative connotation, but you know your 1124 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:30,840 Quakers or your people who are living as agricultural farmers 1125 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,440 even in the modern age, people who don't drive cars. 1126 01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:37,720 You know, you you can go to these these societies where 1127 01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:41,760 they're still living more, more traditional types of of lives 1128 01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,400 that you would see in the colonial places where they where 1129 01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,480 they live. So you these, these societies 1130 01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,360 have been studied in the United States. 1131 01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:52,720 You can go to a community and some researchers have, and 1132 01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:56,160 there's some studies in the 90s where they would get pedometers 1133 01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,480 and they would do body composition testing on a whole 1134 01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,960 bunch of people in these traditional societies. 1135 01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:06,480 And the average body fat among men was like 9 to 11% body fat. 1136 01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:11,320 And the men were clocking, you know, 20 + 1000 steps per day. 1137 01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:15,000 And you see a little bit higher in women, but that you're also 1138 01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:18,360 seeing them give birth to like nine children on average, which 1139 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,680 is a very different, OK, they're they're, they're they're quote, 1140 01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:23,520 UN quote traditional societies. They're also very, very 1141 01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:24,840 different. You know, they're they're 1142 01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:26,200 religious sects most of the time. 1143 01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:32,760 So but anyway, when you look at historical data or there's even 1144 01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:35,480 some data that come out of, there's there's there's 1145 01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:42,080 Australian actors who work in a hey, we're recreating this, this 1146 01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:47,360 historical farming life of the first people from Europe who 1147 01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,720 settled Australia. And you look at their step 1148 01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:51,680 counts and you look at the changes in their behavior and 1149 01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:53,280 the fact that they're only eating things that they're 1150 01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,480 making. And you will see, despite the 1151 01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,800 fact, despite the fact, this is the interesting thing, once you 1152 01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:04,920 get out of looking at the hunter gatherer era, era of humanity 1153 01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,000 and you start looking at the agricultural era, there's a big 1154 01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:09,640 change. You see an increase in food 1155 01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,280 availability, but you don't see a decrease in activity. 1156 01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,080 Yeah, it's hard being a hunter gatherer, but it's really hard 1157 01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:17,040 also being a farmer. They're they're, they're 1158 01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,840 comparable number of steps and you're constantly moving and 1159 01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:21,600 there's a ton of manual labor in either case. 1160 01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:27,280 But you've got butter, you've got dairy, you've got constant 1161 01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:31,240 access to meat, you've got grains, you have food 1162 01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:33,200 availability. So for example, in some of these 1163 01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:37,000 societies, the average energy intake for men is like 3800 1164 01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:40,400 calories, but they're 9 to 11% body fat. 1165 01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:43,280 However, when you look at hunter gatherer societies, they're 1166 01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:47,760 shorter in stature. They are, you know, producing 1167 01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,000 far less energy expenditures than you'd expect for the 1168 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,200 activity levels. Their body mass is lower and 1169 01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:54,640 they're consuming fewer calories. 1170 01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:58,080 So they're kind of in this constant state of, you know, 1171 01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:00,920 basically energy, energy expenditure suppression. 1172 01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,280 They're they're metabolically down regulated so they can 1173 01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:06,000 survive cuz they don't have food available. 1174 01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:09,960 But body fat is also low. So I think that's a really 1175 01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:14,480 interesting thing when you look at what's going on and to answer 1176 01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,240 your question, to get all the way back to it, I'm pretty 1177 01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:22,120 skeptical at least that you can modify your physiological 1178 01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:24,160 intervention points. I do think unfortunately you 1179 01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,000 might be able to put push up your upper intervention point. 1180 01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,280 I think that there is some potential mechanistic 1181 01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,440 explanation for that. You know with with gaining new 1182 01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:36,600 fat cells and and just making it easier to regain body fat. 1183 01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:40,000 I don't have strong data for that, but I think if there was a 1184 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:42,520 way you could alter your your upper and lower intervention 1185 01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:44,520 point, it's much more likely you could your upper. 1186 01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:47,880 But I think the majority of what explains differences between 1187 01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:51,680 individuals is whether they're closer to their upper or their 1188 01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:55,240 lower intervention point based upon their environment. 1189 01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,520 And that's why you see, for example, in in Asian societies 1190 01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:05,960 or agricultural societies, despite having, you know, some 1191 01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:08,760 of the same pieces in place, like a high energy intake, for 1192 01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,640 example, in those traditional societies I was talking about, 1193 01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:15,840 you'll see a lower body fat that they're walking around. 1194 01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,720 And it's not because they've reprogrammed their Physiology. 1195 01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:22,000 It's that their behavioral environment and their the foods 1196 01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:26,600 they're eating and the activity levels they maintain and the the 1197 01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:30,560 palatability of the foods they're eating are much 1198 01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:32,800 different to what we're experiencing in in our modern 1199 01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:34,120 lives. So from a. 1200 01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:35,520 Practical application standpoint. 1201 01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:40,480 If somebody is wanting to remove body fats and just maintain a 1202 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:43,520 healthier composition, and they feel like they can do so through 1203 01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:48,320 an extensive cut and recovery diet and reset homeostatic set 1204 01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,640 point, so to speak, what they're likely going to experience in 1205 01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:55,800 reality is doing those things, building the habits, forming 1206 01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:58,560 that lifestyle, and then in doing so improve their 1207 01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:01,680 composition. And then by adhering to that for 1208 01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:05,880 a long enough period of time that simply becomes easier than 1209 01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:08,760 it was previously. It becomes the new normal, so to 1210 01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:10,360 speak. So they're able to maintain that 1211 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:14,560 composition more so as a direct result of their environmental 1212 01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,760 and behavioural changes than anything that's happening under 1213 01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,120 the hood, so to speak. Perfect summary exactly. 1214 01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:22,760 Couldn't have said it better or more succinctly myself, clearly 1215 01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:24,640 because I spent a lot of time saying exactly that. 1216 01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:27,680 Now, I like it, man. I think. 1217 01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:29,600 I mean, This is why we do. We did. 1218 01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:33,600 This is why we love the the lifestyle, because we see like 1219 01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:35,800 it. It just bleeds into every aspect 1220 01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:38,600 of our life. Like your relationship with your 1221 01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:43,120 spouse, your your ability to perform in business as a coach. 1222 01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:48,120 Like all of these things benefit from just the habits ingrained 1223 01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:51,360 in us as a result of bodybuilding, and that is so 1224 01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,080 much more than a pro card that is so much more than a a body 1225 01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,720 fat scan or caliper could dictate. 1226 01:05:56,720 --> 01:06:01,200 I mean, that's just who we are to the core, and we can't help 1227 01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,240 but love it. Absolutely. 1228 01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:07,120 Yeah, I totally agree. And yeah, that's that's 1229 01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:09,440 something that I think it's missed out a lot on. 1230 01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,840 I think social media really emphasizes the look of 1231 01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,640 bodybuilders. But I think I like to say 1232 01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:21,200 instead of the aesthetics, it is the aesthetic ASCETIC, the monk 1233 01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:23,040 like existence. You learn to live and then start 1234 01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:24,920 to appreciate and love and habituate. 1235 01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:29,720 That almost frees you up to operate in our modern world and 1236 01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:32,080 be more effective. You know you you start to look 1237 01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:34,840 like the outlier. Why is it that they are not you 1238 01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:40,360 know, like I'm 40 and all my friends who are 40 who are you 1239 01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,840 know, not participating in sport or some type of regular 1240 01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,040 activity. I look younger than them and 1241 01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:50,280 they ask I'm the guy that asked for advice and and I I'm the 1242 01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:52,840 person who they're like wow, like you have so much discipline 1243 01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,880 and I go like you know I did have discipline at one point but 1244 01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,960 I don't have to exert discipline on a day-to-day basis now 1245 01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:04,080 because these this is just how I live and that's that's a hard 1246 01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:05,600 thing for people to get and it's a hard thing. 1247 01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:08,240 I mean obviously we both talked about how we still struggle with 1248 01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:11,880 it and contest prep. Is that purposeful? 1249 01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:16,680 Like let me throw, you know, let me throw a wave at this, this, 1250 01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:20,400 this boat and see if I if, if I can regain my stability. 1251 01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:24,800 And I think that is why the recovery phase is so challenging 1252 01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:27,800 for for even bodybuilders who have this ingrained healthy 1253 01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:31,000 lifestyle is because it's a big difference between me walking 1254 01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:35,840 around it in the high one 80s, low one 90s and looking, you 1255 01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:38,400 know, beach lean and just seemingly effortlessly 1256 01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,320 maintaining that versus going from what would be considered a 1257 01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:44,560 lean physique to losing. Oh let me let me go ahead and 1258 01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:48,920 lose like 15 to 20 lbs of body fat and and then see if I can 1259 01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:55,480 make it you know so so yeah it it is it is absolutely a a 1260 01:07:55,480 --> 01:08:01,480 constant forced decision every time you compete to to to 1261 01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:05,520 reingrain the behaviors and re establish your why and and and 1262 01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:09,560 recommit to the lifestyle and transition in and out of you 1263 01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:12,000 know these these slightly more normal phases that to the 1264 01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:13,680 average person still look quite abnormal. 1265 01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:16,760 And yeah, I think, I think it makes you a more resilient 1266 01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,120 person if it's if it's something you can really habituate to 1267 01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:23,680 100%. Post recovery diet, when you are 1268 01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,960 in a slight surplus and prioritizing, you know, building 1269 01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:30,600 more link tissue, are you taking as a regimented approach to 1270 01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:33,720 tracking your intake? Or are you pretty much just, you 1271 01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:35,560 know, maybe checking in from time to time, ensuring that 1272 01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:37,800 you're eating enough total calories, enough protein, and 1273 01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:39,160 then implementing progressive overload? 1274 01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:43,359 Great question. Yeah, I I trend more towards 1275 01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:49,000 outcomes versus the variables the deeper I get into the 1276 01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:50,840 offseason. So what I mean by that is like 1277 01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:54,760 right now I'm weighing in daily, you know, I'm, I've got my step 1278 01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:58,760 count tracker on my on my wrist and I actually have a calorie 1279 01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:00,640 target. An average calorie target 1280 01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:03,319 doesn't mean it's not like I can't like right now like I 1281 01:09:03,319 --> 01:09:07,840 said, I'm targeting 25 to 2600. If I think yesterday I probably 1282 01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:11,520 had 2200, so today I'm probably gonna have more like 2700 and 1283 01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:13,160 that's that's totally fine, right. 1284 01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:18,240 I'm not having like 1800 and then you know 3200. 1285 01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:21,600 But I'm staying within some kind of reasonable range, maybe plus 1286 01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:25,359 or minus, you know, 10% on the calorie target or so. 1287 01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:33,200 But that becomes more of AI stopped tracking calories later 1288 01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:37,319 unless my data, my outcome data is telling me I probably should. 1289 01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:41,920 So what does that mean? So I have a A target, you know, 1290 01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:45,560 like I have a rate of weight gain and upper end weight that I 1291 01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:47,520 associate with a certain body composition. 1292 01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:50,279 Of course if I'm looking awesome and I'm heavier than I thought I 1293 01:09:50,279 --> 01:09:51,800 would be great. That means I'd probably put on 1294 01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,960 some lean tissue. But essentially I have kind of a 1295 01:09:56,000 --> 01:10:00,800 cap on how much body fat and what body weight relative to my 1296 01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:03,400 stage weight I'm gonna allow myself to get up to before it 1297 01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,440 triggers that eventual mini cut. You know, that comes with kind 1298 01:10:06,440 --> 01:10:08,320 of the end of the runway of a gaining phase. 1299 01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:12,560 And once I'm out of the period where I would consider me still 1300 01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:18,000 recovering, energy intake is maybe not tracked if a body 1301 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:20,240 weight is. And I'm going to start tracking 1302 01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:24,560 my scale weight the minimal number of times that I think I 1303 01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:28,960 need to get a realistic average, so maybe three times a week. 1304 01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:31,120 And I just have a spreadsheet that calculates an average. 1305 01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:33,800 So I'm basically looking at the output of the equation instead 1306 01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:37,920 of, you know, energy intake minus expenditure equals, you 1307 01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:40,560 know, net deficit or surplus which will result in the change 1308 01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:42,920 in body mass. I'm just looking at body mass 1309 01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,640 and then allowing myself to auto regulate based upon that. 1310 01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:49,200 Oh, I'm I'm starting to plateau. OK, I need to, I need to modify 1311 01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:52,040 things and I start to focus more on internal cues. 1312 01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:55,960 So I find that the heavier and heavier I get, the more my 1313 01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,880 weight loss will slow down and the more satiated I feel. 1314 01:11:00,480 --> 01:11:05,680 So for example, if I actually get over 200 lbs, if I am just 1315 01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:08,640 satisfied after meals, I'm probably in a slight deficit. 1316 01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:13,320 But when I'm under 190 like I am now, if I am just satisfied 1317 01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:16,080 after meals, I might be in a slight surplus, right? 1318 01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:19,400 And if I'm eating at maintenance, I might feel just a 1319 01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:21,400 little hungry, like I could eat more. 1320 01:11:21,480 --> 01:11:23,560 You know, like you said, I could have a second steak, right? 1321 01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:28,280 So during the recovery phase, I'm weighing in daily. 1322 01:11:28,480 --> 01:11:32,080 Not so much that I need that data to get an accurate view of 1323 01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:36,600 my scale, weight or it's change, but I find it's good reinforcing 1324 01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,160 behavior for monitoring that keeps me on track. 1325 01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:41,360 It's just like you doing your posing. 1326 01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:46,760 So I will probably stop checking my body weight daily when I'm A 1327 01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:49,600 not gaining as quickly and B, don't feel that I need that 1328 01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:52,840 accountability because right now, when I see my scale weight 1329 01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:58,040 tick up more than it should, it creates A manageable level of 1330 01:11:58,040 --> 01:11:59,720 anxiety. You know, because I know I'm 1331 01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:01,680 supposed to be gaining weight. I know I still need to recover 1332 01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:06,800 based upon how I feel, but at the same time I am, I don't need 1333 01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:09,400 to take that any faster than I need to cuz there was that time 1334 01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:14,360 component that I talked about. So where I am currently is 1335 01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:18,040 weighing in daily, having a calorie target and having 1336 01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:21,480 somebody weight goals, but those are proxy proxies for how I 1337 01:12:21,480 --> 01:12:23,200 feel. So right now I'm a little ahead 1338 01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:25,720 of pace than what we initially anticipated for my recovery. 1339 01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:29,800 But we're talking about like a kilo, not much nearly fully 1340 01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:32,120 recovered body weight is starting to stabilize. 1341 01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:37,160 So I'd suspect maybe by February I'm gonna slow down the number 1342 01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:40,800 of weigh insurance that I do, just maybe do three per week and 1343 01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:44,840 I will shift towards maybe not having a calorie intake target. 1344 01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:48,920 But just trying to see my my average body weight, my running 1345 01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:51,640 average and my two week average slowly tick up. 1346 01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:54,720 We're talking the goal is to gain roughly 100 grams per month 1347 01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:58,240 because that'll kind of get me to where I want to be, which is 1348 01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:01,240 is roughly a pound a month. It's it's slow weight gain. 1349 01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:06,600 So and and that then becomes an outcome goal rather than me 1350 01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:08,400 tracking every little metric that gets to it. 1351 01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:10,560 I'll still keep tracking steps because I got a Fitbit and 1352 01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:12,240 that's easy and it's also good for health. 1353 01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,640 But then I just really focusing on tracking my training. 1354 01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:18,240 That's the only thing that doesn't change is I am tracking 1355 01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:22,480 Rep sets, RPE load, and looking at that over time. 1356 01:13:23,440 --> 01:13:27,040 Because if I'm not making progress in the gym, at least on 1357 01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:30,520 some kind of time scale, then then something needs to change 1358 01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:33,160 because I'm potentially not inducing enough overload to to 1359 01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:35,160 hopefully put on muscle. Are you using? 1360 01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:36,760 A. An app or anything or just a 1361 01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,120 spreadsheet for tracking your training metrics. 1362 01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:42,560 Bit of both. I used Boot Camp, which is an 1363 01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:45,240 app I I really like. Fully transparent. 1364 01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:48,960 I am an advisor on the app, but I'm only an advisor on it 1365 01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:52,320 because I like it. I used to use Gravitas, who I 1366 01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:55,720 also have been an advisor for, but those are two great training 1367 01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:58,800 trackers where you can look at personal data and you can look 1368 01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:02,640 at your volume over time, past PR's, your historical records, 1369 01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:06,000 and associations between that and changes in strength, which 1370 01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:08,320 is great, and how much volume you've done for and for 1371 01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:11,480 different muscle groups. But and you can track things 1372 01:14:11,480 --> 01:14:15,040 like RPE. But anyway, I use Boot Camp to 1373 01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:19,480 track when I'm in the gym, and then I transfer that to a Google 1374 01:14:19,480 --> 01:14:23,480 spreadsheet, which is so Brian can see it and that I can look 1375 01:14:23,480 --> 01:14:25,480 at a little, you know, more more intuitively. 1376 01:14:25,480 --> 01:14:27,760 And I've got my body weights on a separate sheet, so I do both. 1377 01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:30,960 Gotcha. Yeah, I'm I've always trained 1378 01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:34,440 pretty intuitively, like I know kind of what my markers are and 1379 01:14:34,440 --> 01:14:37,160 I'm I'm sure to increase those. But this will be the first year 1380 01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:41,640 I really dove into tracking all of my training metrics without 1381 01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:44,760 fail, like I do my nutrition. So I'm really kind of curious to 1382 01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:47,000 see how that impacts things going forward. 1383 01:14:48,480 --> 01:14:54,480 I find it keeps me honest and I also like it because it allows 1384 01:14:54,480 --> 01:14:56,440 me. As you know, it's an advanced 1385 01:14:56,440 --> 01:15:00,320 lifter like we used to have the mindset of like each session I'm 1386 01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:03,240 gonna find some way to improve. I'll add a Rep here or I'll do 1387 01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:06,480 something. And it's not necessarily always 1388 01:15:06,480 --> 01:15:10,360 realistic to progress each time you repeat an exercise or a 1389 01:15:10,360 --> 01:15:15,200 session. But what I do like to do is 1390 01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:18,360 shift between different Rep ranges and find ways to do 1391 01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:21,080 something I haven't done before. Like, let's say I'm I've got an 1392 01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:23,360 exercise which I'm currently training in the six to 10 Rep 1393 01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:26,680 range, and I go into a session. I'm just not feeling good for 1394 01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:27,720 lifting. Heavy on that. 1395 01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:30,880 And I go, you know, well, what's my best 20 Rep set? 1396 01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:34,440 And since I haven't done that in a while, maybe three months ago, 1397 01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:37,160 and I have been accumulating little bits of progress, I can 1398 01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:39,880 look through my tracker and I have good memory, but not that 1399 01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:41,840 good a memory. I'm not gonna remember that nine 1400 01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:46,360 months ago my my 20 Rep Max on you know bicycle was like 15 1401 01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:49,760 kilos or something like that. And I I can see if I can try to 1402 01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:54,440 beat that and then I can have a run at a higher Rep PR for a 1403 01:15:54,440 --> 01:15:56,800 while across four sets or something like that. 1404 01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,840 And then when I'm really burnt out on on the burn, essentially 1405 01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:04,320 I'll jump back down to 6 to 8. I don't always do it like that, 1406 01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:07,560 but it gives me more options. It essentially gives me like a a 1407 01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:11,920 a better memory and it puts more opportunities on the table for 1408 01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,080 me to get that like a little endorphin kick of like I'm 1409 01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:18,360 making progress. And it feels a little more like 1410 01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:22,520 when I was earlier in my lifting career and I could make very 1411 01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:25,640 clear progress, you know, adding 5 lbs week to week or adding a 1412 01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:27,680 Rep you know something like that. 1413 01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:31,920 So I really enjoy it. And when you combine that with 1414 01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:35,560 kind of like an auto regulated progression model use what's 1415 01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:39,960 called dynamic double progression and then you know 1416 01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:43,080 you can I I I'm a little more motivated going into each 1417 01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:46,600 session because I'm gonna find a way on at least one exercise to 1418 01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:48,560 to move move the needle up a little bit. 1419 01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:52,080 And right now obviously during the recovery phase it's going so 1420 01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:55,200 well that I actually am making progress more like an 1421 01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:58,880 intermediate which is which is just I I love it, I I'm, I'm 1422 01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:01,360 very motivated going into every session, but I think the log 1423 01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:03,720 book can help with that as well it is pretty. 1424 01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,160 Exciting when you have that influx of energy coming in and 1425 01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:11,560 you just feel on top of the world post show, he can just go 1426 01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:13,560 kill the training sessions, but you've still got all that 1427 01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:16,960 vascularity and definition that you brought to the stage. 1428 01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:19,480 And I just you feel like an animal in the gym? 1429 01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:23,680 Absolutely. Yeah, I'm still, I am. 1430 01:17:24,440 --> 01:17:28,880 I've probably got another 3-4, five pounds that I can gain 1431 01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:33,240 before I stop getting like, oh shit, visual feedback, you know? 1432 01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:37,400 And I am planning to stay a little leaner this offseason, or 1433 01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:40,440 at least experiment with it that I have in previous seasons. 1434 01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:43,320 Just based upon how well I preserved strength and how I 1435 01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:46,360 felt in the course of pacing This prep really well. 1436 01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:49,640 And all the signs are indicating that I have probably just been 1437 01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:52,960 trying to get too heavy and you know, you've been in the game a 1438 01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:56,600 while, just like I have. And early on in the mid 2000s, 1439 01:17:57,160 --> 01:18:00,320 the messaging we got was just like, you know, eat big to get 1440 01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:02,480 big. There wasn't a lot of delineated 1441 01:18:02,480 --> 01:18:04,040 information for natural athletes. 1442 01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:07,520 And you know, you tell someone and they see you and you're 6 1443 01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:10,160 foot and you got a narrower frame and they're like, yeah, 1444 01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:13,000 well, you know, even as a drug free athlete, I expect you to be 1445 01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:17,760 220 lbs on stage at some point. And now I know that that's just 1446 01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:19,600 not realistic. You know, there's maybe some 1447 01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:24,360 world out there where I'm able to get up to like 185 on stage, 1448 01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:28,800 but that's still a far cry from even 200, let alone 220. 1449 01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:33,200 So I was consistently getting a lot heavier than I think my, 1450 01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:38,640 what was was benefiting me And just seeing like pictures of 1451 01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:41,560 myself as a teenager walking around with with abs and 1452 01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:44,000 probably at, you know, 10 percent, 12% body fat. 1453 01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:47,200 Naturally, I'm starting to reassess whether I was even 1454 01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:48,520 benefiting from getting that heavy. 1455 01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:53,040 And I'm experimenting with having a leaner offseason, which 1456 01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:55,080 I I do think motivationally does help. 1457 01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:57,960 Yeah, you know, having just having bicep feints, man. 1458 01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:02,560 It just makes training much more more font, so there's definitely 1459 01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:04,360 a point of. Diminishing returns with putting 1460 01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:07,560 on body fat for the sake of building maximum amounts of lean 1461 01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:08,680 tissue. I mean, I used to do the same 1462 01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:11,800 thing. I got up to 230 lbs, my first 1463 01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:14,400 legitimate building phase, and I'm only 5, seven and a half. 1464 01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:16,040 So like, that was not a good look for me. 1465 01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:18,080 That's huge. Bro, yeah, I was. 1466 01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:20,960 I was a beefcake. But The thing is, like, even if 1467 01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:24,120 you put on more lean tissue, which one could argue if you are 1468 01:19:24,120 --> 01:19:26,000 or not, yeah, you've got different leverage points. 1469 01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:28,800 You could probably lift more weight, but you have to diet so 1470 01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:31,840 much more aggressively if you're trying to maintain some 1471 01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:36,680 reasonable length of prep time and then you risk losing any of 1472 01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:39,560 that added lean tissue in that more aggressive dieting period. 1473 01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:41,920 So at the end of the day when you step on stage, I don't think 1474 01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:44,680 there's any benefit plus there's certainly not as much of AA 1475 01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:47,600 benefit from a health standpoint, just overall 1476 01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:50,720 enjoyability and longevity standpoint by getting that heavy 1477 01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:52,400 I totally. Agree. 1478 01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:56,560 And and ultimately the proofs in the pudding, I have just never 1479 01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:00,400 seen it work out the way we ambitiously wanted to as young 1480 01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:02,440 competitors. At least in the natural scene 1481 01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:07,240 where you go, all right, you know, I competed at 160 and my 1482 01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:10,600 off scene I was 180. So let me push it up to 190 and 1483 01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:12,600 then I'm gonna, you know, get down to 170. 1484 01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:15,360 It's like more like you push up to 190 and you get down to like 1485 01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:17,600 161. Yeah, you know, and then and 1486 01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:19,960 then the next season and then that's like your second season. 1487 01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:24,120 Like my stage weight, it increased from 2011 to 2019. 1488 01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:28,160 But that was an 8 year period of me being in a surplus, you know, 1489 01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:32,160 or at least in maintenance. My stage weight in 2023 versus 1490 01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:37,160 2019 was almost identical. It functionally was identical. 1491 01:20:37,480 --> 01:20:40,120 But I then the individual changes I made were targeted, 1492 01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:42,840 you know and they're in muscle groups that you know having 1493 01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,960 slightly bigger medial delts is really not going to shift your 1494 01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:49,000 stage weight very much or like upper or lower lat or something 1495 01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:52,200 like that. So IA 100% agree. 1496 01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:56,480 I think it is the presence of a surplus and and the absence of a 1497 01:20:56,480 --> 01:20:59,760 deficit and being above your lower intervention point. 1498 01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:03,880 Those are the main boxes to tick and then you just want to give 1499 01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:05,960 yourself as much time in that state as possible. 1500 01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:09,600 So I think gaining too quickly it essentially gives you a 1501 01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:13,800 marginal benefit for losing a lot of time and it ends up being 1502 01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:15,720 kind of a tortoise. First, the hare scenario. 1503 01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:20,160 And just like you said, you can carry more lean body mass at a 1504 01:21:20,160 --> 01:21:24,080 higher body fat, but you can't carry more lean body mass once 1505 01:21:24,080 --> 01:21:28,840 you die it down And even and some of that is also artifact of 1506 01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:33,520 DEXA scans, like it's not actually an artifact, it's body 1507 01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:35,800 composition testing. We actually have data that 1508 01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:38,640 there's obligatory lean mass losses when you lose adipose 1509 01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:43,160 tissue cuz fat mass is not entirely composed of fat of 1510 01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:45,520 triglyceride. There is some lean tissue there 1511 01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:49,440 and when you gain fat and when you lose fat, there's a small 1512 01:21:49,440 --> 01:21:51,120 proportion of it that is lean mass. 1513 01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:55,480 And like you said, you know, leverage, I think leverage is 1514 01:21:55,480 --> 01:21:57,720 kind of a catch all term. Someone really pinned me down 1515 01:21:57,720 --> 01:21:59,880 and asked me what that was and say, OK, well it's changes in 1516 01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:03,560 range of motion and it's your ability to brace against load 1517 01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:08,480 with different exercises and and you know, things like that 1518 01:22:08,480 --> 01:22:10,960 rather than actually a true quote UN quote physics leverage, 1519 01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:12,320 right. But there is a reason we have 1520 01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:14,000 weight classes in in powerlifting. 1521 01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:17,480 Yeah, the majority of it is yes, you're probably carrying more 1522 01:22:17,480 --> 01:22:19,040 lean tissue at higher body masses. 1523 01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:23,200 That is contractile tissue or connective tissue or scalable 1524 01:22:23,200 --> 01:22:25,080 mass. I do think that is something 1525 01:22:25,080 --> 01:22:28,000 that actually happens is when you're walking around at 5-7 and 1526 01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:32,400 230 lbs, you're probably carrying more bone mass because 1527 01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:36,440 that constant weight on your scalable system is going to 1528 01:22:36,440 --> 01:22:39,520 increase bone density to some degree, which is probably gonna 1529 01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:43,760 allow you to move more weight. And I I would say this because 1530 01:22:43,760 --> 01:22:47,080 we know the inverse is true, that when you look at studies on 1531 01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:50,600 astronauts, when they are out of a gravity well, they start to 1532 01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:53,040 quickly lose it. And there is something to be 1533 01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:57,840 said for a constant higher tension on a given tissue. 1534 01:22:57,840 --> 01:22:59,920 You're going to see it. It's not the same as the 1535 01:22:59,920 --> 01:23:03,120 stepping in the gym for an hour four days a week or five days a 1536 01:23:03,120 --> 01:23:05,240 week. I don't think you can quite 1537 01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:09,480 replicate being 230 lbs and walking around day-to-day living 1538 01:23:09,480 --> 01:23:13,880 your life 24/7 for months with, you know, lifting as heavy as 1539 01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:17,040 you can in the gym. So I wouldn't be surprised if 1540 01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:21,440 you know the Robert Sykes at 230 lbs have higher bone mineral 1541 01:23:21,440 --> 01:23:24,440 density in addition to having just more lean mass in your 1542 01:23:24,440 --> 01:23:27,680 adipose tissue to where you could move heavier weights and 1543 01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:30,000 and lift heavier loads and carry some more muscle. 1544 01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:32,400 But you you just can't replicate that. 1545 01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:35,440 Unless maybe you're going to do the the weighted vest 24/7 1546 01:23:35,440 --> 01:23:38,000 thing, which sounds awful to me. Yeah, does not sound. 1547 01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:40,680 Pleasant. I've. 1548 01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:42,280 Got a bit of a selfless question for you Sir. 1549 01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:45,560 So you've been in space for quite some time. 1550 01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:49,320 I mean, I remember watching whiteboard videos of you long 1551 01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:52,000 time ago and you have been a voice of reason. 1552 01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:55,880 You are very well spoken and you are incredibly knowledgeable. 1553 01:23:56,800 --> 01:24:01,320 I have made it my point as of late since I've adopted this 1554 01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:05,440 ketogenic way of eating and lifestyle to offer that as an 1555 01:24:05,440 --> 01:24:08,920 outlook for people that want to compete at a high level and 1556 01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:11,480 simply do better with that format of eating. 1557 01:24:11,480 --> 01:24:13,800 I don't ever want to come across as dogmatic when it comes to 1558 01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:15,360 nutrition. I mean, people obviously get 1559 01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:18,280 lean with a variety of diets and I got lean. 1560 01:24:18,280 --> 01:24:20,520 It was very competitive when I was eating carbohydrates. 1561 01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:23,240 Having not consumed carbohydrates now for eight 1562 01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:25,760 years and still have a love for bodybuilding, I've wanted to 1563 01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:29,520 kind of be a voice of reason for people that resonate more with 1564 01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:35,120 that lifestyle. What is your take on not say 1565 01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:37,320 what I've personally accomplished, but that could be 1566 01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:41,120 folded into it, but just natural bodybuilding from a ketogenic 1567 01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:42,760 perspective? Like, there's been a lot of 1568 01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:46,600 pushback from people in the bodybuilding space towards me 1569 01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:49,640 for wanting to do this in the complete absence of 1570 01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:52,720 carbohydrates. And I've always kind of been 1571 01:24:52,720 --> 01:24:54,920 like a let me show you what I can do as opposed to tell you 1572 01:24:54,920 --> 01:24:57,560 kind of person. So I felt like this prep season 1573 01:24:58,040 --> 01:25:02,080 illustrated that quite well, but I'd love to get your take on 1574 01:25:02,080 --> 01:25:04,800 that, just with your background and your knowledge and 1575 01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:07,640 experience in the sport and in nutrition in general. 1576 01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:11,080 Yeah, there's some interesting stuff there for sure. 1577 01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:17,800 I think the first thing is that anecdotes I think are something 1578 01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:21,240 that we don't give enough credit to in any time. 1579 01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:23,160 People kind of step into the quote UN quote evidence based 1580 01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:24,080 space. And that's even true of 1581 01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:27,240 scientists, cuz we have definite tilt towards I want verifiable 1582 01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:29,880 data. But the one thing that anecdotes 1583 01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:35,640 will tell you is whether or not for a given person, population 1584 01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:39,920 or kind of phenotype or genotype if you will, whether something 1585 01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:44,560 is required for success or whether it is it is a sufficient 1586 01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:46,720 barrier to success. And then when you get even more 1587 01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:49,240 robust anecdotes, like in your case, we can look back on your 1588 01:25:49,240 --> 01:25:52,920 prior preps with carbohydrates and without and you can see, oh, 1589 01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:55,560 did he improve? Did he look better or worse, you 1590 01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:58,400 know, or or, you know, maybe he would have improved anyway, but 1591 01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:02,280 if it was that big of a barrier to him being better, he wouldn't 1592 01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:04,480 be able to get better. But I would say you, you would 1593 01:26:04,480 --> 01:26:09,800 probably say that your physique now in 2023 on stage presented 1594 01:26:09,800 --> 01:26:11,960 better than eight years ago when you weren't eating 1595 01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:13,760 carbohydrates, right? Yeah, 100%. 1596 01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:19,080 So you've been able to improve your performance in a sport 1597 01:26:19,440 --> 01:26:21,520 while being ketogenic for eight years. 1598 01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:26,480 So what we know from that that anecdote is that the key 1599 01:26:26,480 --> 01:26:30,640 determinant of your success was not carbohydrate intake and we 1600 01:26:30,640 --> 01:26:36,400 also know that a a a potential barrier to your success was not 1601 01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:39,320 the presence of carbs or not. And I think that's really 1602 01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:41,280 useful. That's not to say that there 1603 01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:44,120 aren't going to be some people where that's not the case, but 1604 01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:47,480 we absolutely know that there are individuals like yourself to 1605 01:26:47,480 --> 01:26:50,520 where carbohydrates are not going to be required for high 1606 01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:54,240 level success in bodybuilding and or even improvement. 1607 01:26:54,240 --> 01:26:59,520 And I think that's important and that's a really, really useful 1608 01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:01,280 thing. Just to know purely from not 1609 01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:04,360 even looking at the Physiology or the research or the science 1610 01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:08,560 and be aware of that. I think another perspective that 1611 01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:11,840 I have as I've gotten more into the history and sociology of 1612 01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:15,240 bodybuilding is to realize that we've gone through phases. 1613 01:27:16,200 --> 01:27:21,480 There were phases where there was more of a dominant focus on 1614 01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:24,600 a lower carbohydrate versus higher carbohydrate diets within 1615 01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:26,360 the industry and within different regions. 1616 01:27:27,920 --> 01:27:32,080 So for example, when you look at surveys of bodybuilders in the 1617 01:27:32,080 --> 01:27:38,800 UK versus the US, you see a lot more people in the US using low 1618 01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:41,240 carbohydrate diets in the UK tends to be more dominated by 1619 01:27:41,240 --> 01:27:43,160 high carb diets. This is probably just due to the 1620 01:27:43,160 --> 01:27:47,080 cultural influences of who were the dominant like voices in the 1621 01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:51,600 space or or or pros. You can also see a lot more use 1622 01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:54,560 of ketogenic diets. We're currently in some of South 1623 01:27:54,560 --> 01:27:58,720 America right now and it's not like you're seeing these trends. 1624 01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:03,960 We're at IPB World Championships or the Olympia or even WMBF 1625 01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:08,080 worlds where you know, high carb or low carb diets is dictating 1626 01:28:08,080 --> 01:28:10,760 whether or not that country is relevant for a period of like a 1627 01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:14,280 decade or not, you know. So the influence of those 1628 01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:18,560 dietary trends within bodybuilding is going to be less 1629 01:28:18,560 --> 01:28:21,680 of an important factor than we can see based upon like the 1630 01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:24,120 population of the country and the popularity of the sport. 1631 01:28:25,240 --> 01:28:28,840 And then when you think about the energetic demands of 1632 01:28:28,840 --> 01:28:31,720 bodybuilding, which is essentially going to be mapped 1633 01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:35,440 on to the energetic demands of hypertrophy training, we see 1634 01:28:35,440 --> 01:28:39,240 that, well, shit, you can get hypertrophy from a range of 1635 01:28:39,240 --> 01:28:43,600 volumes and even Rep ranges. It really comes down to, you 1636 01:28:43,600 --> 01:28:45,720 know, doing the appropriate amount of work for the person, 1637 01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:49,240 the right proximity to failure, and then even if they're not 1638 01:28:49,240 --> 01:28:51,400 doing, could quote UN quote optimal amount of volume. 1639 01:28:51,400 --> 01:28:55,000 You can still make progress, you know, and it's very difficult to 1640 01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:56,680 know whether you're actually doing this optimal. 1641 01:28:56,760 --> 01:29:02,920 So I I do think that there can be a clustering of factors for 1642 01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:05,520 someone where they respond better to lower volumes. 1643 01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:12,240 They they they tend to be pretty metabolically flexible and do 1644 01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:15,440 just just as well with a low carbohydrate diet compared to a 1645 01:29:15,440 --> 01:29:18,360 high carbohydrate diet. And they might also even get 1646 01:29:18,360 --> 01:29:21,200 some other benefits of a low carbohydrate diet because there 1647 01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:24,520 is some data indicating that not for everyone, but for the 1648 01:29:24,520 --> 01:29:33,080 majority of people it can result in more satiety that that makes 1649 01:29:33,080 --> 01:29:37,000 the dietary adherence easier. And I'm actually curious about 1650 01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:38,760 this and I almost wanna flip the question on you. 1651 01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:43,400 I do wonder if the peaking process for some people might be 1652 01:29:43,400 --> 01:29:46,880 better because yeah, theoretically you might be able 1653 01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:50,280 to achieve higher levels of fullness with carbohydrate 1654 01:29:50,280 --> 01:29:54,240 loading versus say fat loading or just bringing your energy 1655 01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:57,400 intake back up. But from a data perspective, we 1656 01:29:57,400 --> 01:30:00,440 see that people who are adapted to high carb diets, their 1657 01:30:00,440 --> 01:30:02,120 glycogen levels aren't chronically low. 1658 01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:05,720 They're they may not be able to get super compensated to the 1659 01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:09,120 same degree. But because you're using fat and 1660 01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:13,600 because you're adapting to some degree to as much as one can to 1661 01:30:14,320 --> 01:30:16,840 the energy substrates you're taking in, you can probably 1662 01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:19,120 maintain quote UN quote normal levels of glycogen. 1663 01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:21,880 But then you're not necessarily dealing with some of the 1664 01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:26,640 potential spillover or acute shifts in appearance that you 1665 01:30:26,640 --> 01:30:29,360 get with carbohydrate loading. I I I do wonder, and you would 1666 01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:31,520 have more experience this with this than I would. 1667 01:30:32,440 --> 01:30:35,360 Is there that you mean high fat that adapted to high fat, That 1668 01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:37,320 right I did mean. Adapted to high fat diet. 1669 01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:38,280 Thank you. I'm following you. 1670 01:30:38,280 --> 01:30:39,440 So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1671 01:30:39,440 --> 01:30:43,560 So I guess what I'm saying is you're you're you're you're not 1672 01:30:43,560 --> 01:30:46,320 gonna get flat trying to do a fat load, right? 1673 01:30:46,560 --> 01:30:50,480 You may not get as full maybe. I don't know, but I do wonder if 1674 01:30:50,480 --> 01:30:53,760 there's less likelihood of having a spilly look when you're 1675 01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:56,600 doing a carbohydrate protocol that that's low in 1676 01:30:56,600 --> 01:30:58,800 carbohydrates. Do you find there's this less 1677 01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:01,360 likelihood of oops when you're when you're taking that 1678 01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:02,240 approach? Yes. 1679 01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:06,480 So there I I was doing several trial peak weeks in preparation 1680 01:31:06,480 --> 01:31:09,720 for my for my first show and I would get incredibly aggressive 1681 01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:12,880 with sodium, fats and proteins and the ratios, macro 1682 01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:17,800 distributions and I could be on the incredible aggressive end 1683 01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:20,720 and not risk near the spillover that I was experiencing when I 1684 01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:24,240 was incorporating carbohydrates. There could be an argument for I 1685 01:31:24,240 --> 01:31:27,360 didn't get as filled out, but it it would be. 1686 01:31:27,560 --> 01:31:30,400 I don't even think it would have been a noticeable difference 1687 01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:32,680 even with the trained eye because like I'm looking at 1688 01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:34,880 myself, I'm critiquing my physique, I'm, you know, 1689 01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:39,520 training and look at my muscle fullness and I never felt flat 1690 01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:42,920 after doing one of these peaking protocols with the ketogenic 1691 01:31:42,920 --> 01:31:44,360 approach. So I don't feel like I was 1692 01:31:44,360 --> 01:31:47,720 sacrificing any from a fullness standpoint, but there was much 1693 01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:51,160 less risk of spilling over. Even if I was only aggressive 1694 01:31:51,160 --> 01:31:55,480 and or if I timed it closer or further to the actual show day 1695 01:31:55,480 --> 01:31:57,720 in the week 'cause I was trying to front load and I was trying 1696 01:31:57,720 --> 01:31:59,080 to back load. I was trying to figure out what 1697 01:31:59,080 --> 01:32:01,240 timing made the most sense. And that's going to be a little 1698 01:32:01,440 --> 01:32:04,920 bit nuanced for the individual. I kind of landed on a 48 hour 1699 01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:08,600 out as the high calorie day, but I was getting super aggressive 1700 01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:10,760 with my sodium too. I mean, I was typically around 1701 01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:14,560 11 to 14,000 milligrams of sodium a day, which is pretty 1702 01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:18,920 high by most people's standards. But I didn't cut water, so I was 1703 01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:21,320 able to maintain hydration throughout the entirety of it. 1704 01:32:22,040 --> 01:32:25,840 But I don't feel like there's near the risk for spilling over 1705 01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:29,280 if you remove the carbohydrates from the equation. 1706 01:32:30,840 --> 01:32:32,400 And honestly, I said that makes sense to me. 1707 01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:36,000 And I have noticed that there's an extreme variation between how 1708 01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:40,600 people respond to carbohydrate loading protocols and some 1709 01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:45,280 people can get quite full and I think they wouldn't respond as 1710 01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:47,400 well. Like, you know, they there are 1711 01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:50,800 some people who are really hard to spill over and eat a 1712 01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:53,120 ridiculous amount of carbohydrates and they look 1713 01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:56,760 better the more they eat. And I've coached them and I've 1714 01:32:56,760 --> 01:32:58,800 met them. I was talking to what Benjamin 1715 01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:02,160 Schuster was taking in for his carb load this 21 year old that 1716 01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:06,000 looks like he's got the muscle maturity of a 35 year old and 1717 01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:08,760 we're like the same weight on stage or close to it, roughly 1718 01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:10,360 the same height. He was the 2nd tallest guy in 1719 01:33:10,360 --> 01:33:12,480 the class. I was the tallest. 1720 01:33:12,840 --> 01:33:16,600 But dude, he was eating like 800 grams of carb a day like the 1721 01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:20,160 whole week. And I'm loading 2-3 days out on 1722 01:33:20,160 --> 01:33:24,080 500 grams of carbs and tapering it down and I'm just like, I 1723 01:33:24,080 --> 01:33:26,920 know our stats look the same, but we are not the same, you 1724 01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:29,320 know. So I I think that's really 1725 01:33:29,320 --> 01:33:32,880 interesting. And I would say you know to to 1726 01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:37,640 give some validation to your experiences is that I think it 1727 01:33:37,640 --> 01:33:41,960 would be a good idea for a coach to understand that if they've 1728 01:33:41,960 --> 01:33:46,080 got a client from a peaking perspective who is very 1729 01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:51,320 unpredictable and they're often looking worse based upon even 1730 01:33:51,400 --> 01:33:54,680 conservative carbohydrate loading protocols on game day, 1731 01:33:55,280 --> 01:34:00,000 they would be remiss to not at least try a low carb approach to 1732 01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:02,720 peaking. Where the best chance at having 1733 01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:05,920 them look their best on game day is to just make sure they're not 1734 01:34:05,920 --> 01:34:11,800 flat and then to emphasize, you know, loading fats and and 1735 01:34:11,800 --> 01:34:13,880 sodium. In my mind, the only potential 1736 01:34:13,880 --> 01:34:20,920 downside is that you might set back the actual fat loss aspect 1737 01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:23,520 because you know you're not going to spill over a quote UN 1738 01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:25,480 quote. But if you are overdoing it on 1739 01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:28,760 fats and calories, then you're just going to be higher in body 1740 01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:32,680 fat over the next couple days post show, right, Which which 1741 01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:34,800 may or may not be an issue. I think, I think when you're at 1742 01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:38,280 the level of conditioning you're at, that's, you know, So what 1743 01:34:38,320 --> 01:34:40,640 you gain 100 grams of fat like you're you're, you're, you're 1744 01:34:40,640 --> 01:34:43,880 fine, right. And that may be occurring anyway 1745 01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:46,800 with a carbohydrate load and and if someone's celebrating post 1746 01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:49,240 show, etcetera. So I definitely think there's a 1747 01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:54,480 use case and I think that there are some people who adapt better 1748 01:34:54,840 --> 01:34:56,440 to low carbohydrate diets than others. 1749 01:34:56,440 --> 01:34:58,440 That's absolutely something that we've observed in the 1750 01:34:58,440 --> 01:35:01,000 literature. I was actually part of a trial 1751 01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:03,320 for a master's student this is offseason. 1752 01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:06,960 It wasn't in the context of dieting, but I went on a 12 week 1753 01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:12,560 period of consuming around 70 to 90 grams of carbohydrates a day 1754 01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:14,680 but still eating maintenance calories and high protein. 1755 01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:18,120 So this is a modified low carb diet, not quite ketogenic, 1756 01:35:18,200 --> 01:35:20,920 although I probably was actually in the if I was to, you know get 1757 01:35:20,920 --> 01:35:23,720 a keto stick probably was in ketosis some more days than not. 1758 01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:28,400 And I was one of four other athletes, a mixture of weight 1759 01:35:28,400 --> 01:35:31,600 lifters and power lifters and there was some really 1760 01:35:31,600 --> 01:35:35,720 interesting divergent responses. So we did four weeks of tracking 1761 01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:38,000 just that maintenance, our normal, you know, our normal 1762 01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:41,880 diet, 12 weeks on this modified low carb diet. 1763 01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:45,280 And then four weeks afterwards going back to our habitual 1764 01:35:45,280 --> 01:35:49,000 eating patterns. And we looked at skin fold 1765 01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:53,200 changes and subjective interviews and reports of 1766 01:35:53,200 --> 01:35:57,560 satiety and also progress in terms of our lifts relative to 1767 01:35:57,560 --> 01:36:00,560 the trajectory of our progress in prior competitions. 1768 01:36:01,280 --> 01:36:07,200 And it was kind of clear we had one person who was actually me 1769 01:36:08,200 --> 01:36:13,960 who did not who basically saw a a poor outcome in terms of their 1770 01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:16,520 strength performance when they went on a low carb diet like 1771 01:36:16,560 --> 01:36:19,320 it's I stopped progressing and I actually regressed a little bit. 1772 01:36:19,880 --> 01:36:22,960 And then we had two people who kind of plateaued their strength 1773 01:36:22,960 --> 01:36:26,160 but they lost somebody weight from the body weight you'd 1774 01:36:26,160 --> 01:36:28,360 expect to lose going low carb. So the relative strength 1775 01:36:28,360 --> 01:36:31,680 improved And then we had two people who kept the same exact 1776 01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:34,240 trajectory of strength improvement and lost body 1777 01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:35,480 weight. So their relative strength, 1778 01:36:35,480 --> 01:36:37,720 they're coefficient in powerlifting or weightlifting, 1779 01:36:38,320 --> 01:36:41,120 Sinclair score at the time Wilkes score and their absolute 1780 01:36:41,120 --> 01:36:42,960 strength kept increasing at the same rate. 1781 01:36:43,560 --> 01:36:47,880 And then you saw people whose body weight stayed the same and 1782 01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:49,840 didn't go down and you know, I saw other people who had 1783 01:36:49,840 --> 01:36:52,280 dropped. So for me, for example, while my 1784 01:36:52,280 --> 01:36:55,760 performance went down, I also started to lose skin folds and I 1785 01:36:55,760 --> 01:36:59,000 found myself satiated for the first four weeks. 1786 01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:03,280 So like my, when I eat a a low carb diet, I walk around 1787 01:37:03,280 --> 01:37:07,160 probably 2% body fat lower all the time. 1788 01:37:07,920 --> 01:37:10,240 Whether that's worth it in terms of the gym performance. 1789 01:37:10,240 --> 01:37:15,000 I ultimately said no. But I I think you're gonna get 1790 01:37:15,000 --> 01:37:18,320 people who are gonna cluster and have some beneficial outcomes, 1791 01:37:18,320 --> 01:37:20,640 some negative. And if you get enough clustering 1792 01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:24,160 for a person where the positives outweigh the negatives, that's 1793 01:37:24,160 --> 01:37:26,880 when I think you get those anecdotes of like, well, this 1794 01:37:26,880 --> 01:37:28,680 has really worked quite well for me. 1795 01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:35,680 So it's absolutely possible to do bodybuilding on a low carb 1796 01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:41,560 diet for I would say a sizable minority, if maybe not a 1797 01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:45,400 majority of people. Whether it is better or 1798 01:37:45,400 --> 01:37:49,000 beneficial or optimal, I think that probably would be a far 1799 01:37:49,000 --> 01:37:51,200 lower number. But I think we have enough 1800 01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:54,880 anecdotes where it's you cannot deny that some people would do 1801 01:37:54,880 --> 01:37:57,200 just fine on one or the other and then they can lean on 1802 01:37:57,200 --> 01:37:59,320 personal preference. And there are gonna probably be 1803 01:37:59,320 --> 01:38:03,560 some people who would actually is better for and it might be 1804 01:38:03,560 --> 01:38:05,040 worth experimenting. I think an. 1805 01:38:05,040 --> 01:38:07,960 Important caveat when it pertains to the ketogenic diet 1806 01:38:07,960 --> 01:38:12,080 and optimizing performance is that individuals that want to go 1807 01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:16,480 that route truly allow their body time to fully adapt to 1808 01:38:16,480 --> 01:38:19,520 maximize fat metabolism as the primary fuel source. 1809 01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:23,320 I see so many people bouncing from one to the other and trying 1810 01:38:23,320 --> 01:38:26,360 to, you know, play the middle ground and they wind up getting 1811 01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:28,680 stuck in this purgatory limbo land where they're not really 1812 01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:31,640 capitalizing on the benefits carbohydrates have to offer or 1813 01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:34,880 fat metabolism has to offer. And most of the studies 1814 01:38:34,880 --> 01:38:37,320 unfortunately are such short period studies that they're not 1815 01:38:37,320 --> 01:38:40,480 really allowing the participants to fully adapt anyways, which is 1816 01:38:40,480 --> 01:38:43,680 going to skew the results, oftentimes negatively, towards 1817 01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:46,840 the ketogenic diet. And the adaptation process is 1818 01:38:46,840 --> 01:38:50,400 not, I mean you can be producing ketones in, you know, short 1819 01:38:50,400 --> 01:38:52,960 order, but that is far different than actually performing at a 1820 01:38:52,960 --> 01:38:54,960 high level. So that process takes a lot 1821 01:38:54,960 --> 01:38:59,040 longer than many people are willing to to undergo so. 1822 01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:02,080 Anecdotally for you, how long have you observed when you've 1823 01:39:02,080 --> 01:39:05,800 had people go on ketogenic diets, how long does it take for 1824 01:39:05,800 --> 01:39:08,280 them to to fully adapt to it well? 1825 01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:12,240 They start getting the psychological benefits and just 1826 01:39:12,240 --> 01:39:16,760 like they they report better mental acuity, better satiety, 1827 01:39:16,760 --> 01:39:20,440 things of that nature within, you know, a few days to a week. 1828 01:39:20,760 --> 01:39:23,000 But from a performance standpoint, I always tell 1829 01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:26,240 people, look, give it a solid six months without deviation 1830 01:39:26,240 --> 01:39:28,120 before you make an opinion one way or the other. 1831 01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:32,520 And what I've noticed in myself is that that continues to trend 1832 01:39:33,040 --> 01:39:37,040 positively the more time I am adapted, which is why I don't do 1833 01:39:37,440 --> 01:39:41,080 cyclical keto or targeted keto or have random high carb days, 1834 01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:43,800 because I don't want to interfere with that deeper level 1835 01:39:43,800 --> 01:39:46,040 of adaptation that seems to compound over time. 1836 01:39:46,960 --> 01:39:50,040 Interesting, yeah. Because one one of the issues I 1837 01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:53,480 have with some of the critiques of the studies of ketogenic 1838 01:39:53,480 --> 01:39:58,960 diets is that the IT almost presents itself as a logical 1839 01:39:58,960 --> 01:40:01,400 fallacy. Like no matter how long people 1840 01:40:01,400 --> 01:40:05,040 watch the adaptation, period. The people who who have a bias 1841 01:40:05,040 --> 01:40:08,600 towards low carb diets be like I wasn't long enough, you know? 1842 01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:11,120 I agree and I and it becomes remove those fallacies for sure. 1843 01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:13,560 Yeah, and and. I'm not saying you're saying 1844 01:40:13,560 --> 01:40:15,720 that, but it does become like how long is a piece of string, 1845 01:40:15,720 --> 01:40:18,640 you know? And I'm not saying this, this 1846 01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:20,960 encompasses everything. But when we look at some of the 1847 01:40:21,080 --> 01:40:26,760 studies on muscle Physiology and the metabolic adaptations to 1848 01:40:26,760 --> 01:40:30,640 actual muscle tissue, those happen pretty they've pretty 1849 01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:34,320 impressively the degree that one can adapt and the studies on, 1850 01:40:34,800 --> 01:40:37,400 you know, glycogen preservation, how it kind of goes down at 1st. 1851 01:40:37,400 --> 01:40:40,200 And then all of a sudden you're seeing people with normal quote, 1852 01:40:40,200 --> 01:40:43,680 UN quote, glycogen levels who have been on low carb diets and 1853 01:40:43,680 --> 01:40:45,280 are endurance athletes. And you're like, well, what's 1854 01:40:45,280 --> 01:40:48,080 going on here? And I don't think most people 1855 01:40:48,080 --> 01:40:51,760 know this, but like if you give people a glycogen depleting bout 1856 01:40:51,760 --> 01:40:55,320 of training, not even who are necessarily like keto adapted 1857 01:40:55,320 --> 01:40:58,400 and you just give them water, they do replenish glycogen. 1858 01:40:58,520 --> 01:41:02,000 Like we have a robust ability to exchange energy substrates 1859 01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:03,320 because glycogen's too important. 1860 01:41:03,720 --> 01:41:07,640 So I think there are some misconceptions around it and 1861 01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:10,880 that this process probably happens even faster in when one 1862 01:41:10,880 --> 01:41:13,120 is keto adapted. But from what I've seen, you 1863 01:41:13,120 --> 01:41:17,560 know, where you're talking on the order of weeks, the muscle 1864 01:41:17,560 --> 01:41:23,320 has made energetic adaptations to where it is using fat far 1865 01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:25,040 more effectively, and that starts to plateau. 1866 01:41:25,040 --> 01:41:28,160 But I'm definitely open to the idea that there are other, more 1867 01:41:28,160 --> 01:41:30,920 systemic adaptations that take longer. 1868 01:41:30,920 --> 01:41:34,760 Or maybe it's a psychological or behavioral habituation, or maybe 1869 01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:37,200 there's neuromuscular adaptations that are more 1870 01:41:37,200 --> 01:41:40,240 central. Because you're not the only one 1871 01:41:40,240 --> 01:41:43,720 who's told me that anecdotally it seems to take longer and that 1872 01:41:43,720 --> 01:41:48,200 it gets better with time, although I'm not sure if that is 1873 01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:52,160 necessarily like all Physiology or even all muscle Physiology. 1874 01:41:52,360 --> 01:41:55,120 Yeah, I've got no. Doubt that some of it is is in 1875 01:41:55,120 --> 01:41:58,720 tandem with other factors beyond just Physiology, but I wouldn't 1876 01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:02,280 recommend somebody totally 180 their nutrition like during peak 1877 01:42:02,280 --> 01:42:05,080 week for instance, without yeah. Testing. 1878 01:42:05,080 --> 01:42:08,840 Things out beforehand, Yeah. Eric, I can literally talk to 1879 01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:10,480 you all day long man. But I want to be respectful of 1880 01:42:10,480 --> 01:42:12,520 your time. We'll have to do another follow 1881 01:42:12,520 --> 01:42:16,040 up podcast because I want to dive deeper into 3 DMJ and that 1882 01:42:16,040 --> 01:42:18,640 as a business that as a brand that as a coaching platform 1883 01:42:18,640 --> 01:42:21,520 because I love what you're doing with that alongside your your 1884 01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:24,920 colleagues there. But I also have to extend you a 1885 01:42:24,920 --> 01:42:29,760 Congrats because just last week the WNBF changed their their 1886 01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:31,880 regulations. So we do no longer have to 1887 01:42:31,880 --> 01:42:35,560 compete every two years to maintain pro status, which I I 1888 01:42:35,560 --> 01:42:37,840 feel you are excited about. I'm certainly excited about 1889 01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:40,720 because I think as natural athletes competing every two 1890 01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:44,280 years, when you're spending six months in a deficit and three 1891 01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:46,800 months, four months, five months on recovery, that that's just 1892 01:42:46,800 --> 01:42:49,000 not ample time. Yeah. 1893 01:42:49,000 --> 01:42:52,120 I mean I'm sure you and I both are very motivated now that 1894 01:42:52,120 --> 01:42:57,360 we've turned pro to try to bring the next level and considering 1895 01:42:57,360 --> 01:43:01,440 how long it took both of us to turn pro, I know for me doing 1896 01:43:01,440 --> 01:43:04,160 that in a two year period, it feels like a tall order for a 1897 01:43:04,160 --> 01:43:07,200 short period of time. And yeah, and then just 1898 01:43:07,200 --> 01:43:10,880 generally like you know I I have, I've competed no no more 1899 01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:13,240 frequently even as an amateur than every two years. 1900 01:43:13,680 --> 01:43:16,160 So to think that I kind of have to hold myself to that schedule 1901 01:43:16,160 --> 01:43:19,240 has always been something that I would say the entire natural 1902 01:43:19,240 --> 01:43:21,920 community has kind of kind of raised their hand and go hey, 1903 01:43:21,920 --> 01:43:24,440 can we change this. And I'm really, really pleased 1904 01:43:24,440 --> 01:43:27,760 and appreciative of the WNBF leadership for taking that step 1905 01:43:27,760 --> 01:43:29,800 forward. I think it's an important thing 1906 01:43:29,800 --> 01:43:32,240 for our sport, so that's, I think it's great news, man, I 1907 01:43:32,240 --> 01:43:33,280 am. And I'd love to. 1908 01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:37,120 Come back on to talk about 3 DMJ for sure, yeah, yeah. 1909 01:43:37,120 --> 01:43:39,800 You are always invited. I definitely want to keep the 1910 01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:42,160 conversation going because that is definitely something I wanted 1911 01:43:42,160 --> 01:43:45,720 to touch on because like I said, y'all been in this for a long 1912 01:43:45,720 --> 01:43:46,960 time. You bring a wealth of knowledge 1913 01:43:46,960 --> 01:43:50,080 to the table and you've changed more lives than than y'all were 1914 01:43:50,080 --> 01:43:52,560 ever ever realized. Just with the content you put 1915 01:43:52,560 --> 01:43:55,440 out freely on the intra webs, what you're working, you know, 1916 01:43:55,440 --> 01:43:57,760 doing with people, one-on-one and client coaching 1917 01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:00,160 relationships, just how you interact with people on a 1918 01:44:00,160 --> 01:44:02,080 day-to-day basis. I haven't got utmost respect for 1919 01:44:02,080 --> 01:44:05,200 you and the entire team and I'm excited that we were able to 1920 01:44:05,200 --> 01:44:07,600 formally meet in person and keep the conversation going. 1921 01:44:08,720 --> 01:44:10,680 Thank you so much, Robert. I really appreciate that It 1922 01:44:10,680 --> 01:44:14,160 means the world and I feel I owe so much to the natural 1923 01:44:14,160 --> 01:44:16,880 bodybuilding community. So to hear that we're making 1924 01:44:16,880 --> 01:44:19,440 that positive impact it it means a tremendous amount. 1925 01:44:19,440 --> 01:44:20,720 Thank you. You absolutely. 1926 01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:22,320 Are Where? Where do people go to find out 1927 01:44:22,320 --> 01:44:24,080 more about you and dive deeper into your world? 1928 01:44:25,360 --> 01:44:28,200 3D muscle journey.com You said it, so that's the the number 1929 01:44:28,200 --> 01:44:30,960 three, the letter D musclejourney.com. 1930 01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:35,040 And then from there you can find the links to all kinds of stuff 1931 01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:38,960 from our our YouTube channel where I'm logging my offseason, 1932 01:44:38,960 --> 01:44:41,320 and to where the other coaches do a lot of great work. 1933 01:44:41,320 --> 01:44:45,640 As well as well as to the vault where we have courses. 1934 01:44:45,640 --> 01:44:48,880 If you want to become a student of the sport, and if you really 1935 01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:51,320 want to nerd out, we've got links to my books The Muscle and 1936 01:44:51,320 --> 01:44:55,560 Strength Pyramids as well as Mass Research Review, where I'm 1937 01:44:55,560 --> 01:44:59,120 one of the the many authors who writes about the latest 1938 01:44:59,280 --> 01:45:02,160 scientific information that's most relevant to, you know, 1939 01:45:02,160 --> 01:45:05,160 hypertrophy, body composition and and strength and resistance 1940 01:45:05,160 --> 01:45:06,600 training, adaptation and fat loss. 1941 01:45:06,960 --> 01:45:08,640 Well, I will certainly. Link it to all those. 1942 01:45:08,640 --> 01:45:09,920 Make it easy for people to find you. 1943 01:45:09,920 --> 01:45:12,160 And if anybody's listening to this podcast, they should also 1944 01:45:12,160 --> 01:45:14,720 go ahead and subscribe to the Iron Culture podcast because 1945 01:45:14,720 --> 01:45:16,680 that is also putting out some great information. 1946 01:45:17,560 --> 01:45:19,240 Yes. And we also have the three DMJ 1947 01:45:19,240 --> 01:45:22,480 podcast if you really want a natural, bodybuilding specific 1948 01:45:22,480 --> 01:45:24,000 podcast and I appreciate that, man. 1949 01:45:24,000 --> 01:45:25,040 Thank you. I love it. 1950 01:45:25,200 --> 01:45:27,640 Eric we'll keep killing it, man. We'll be in touch and have a 1951 01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:31,200 great 2024 brother and enjoy the remainder of your recovery diet 1952 01:45:31,960 --> 01:45:33,400 back at you. Take care, man. 1953 01:45:34,080 --> 01:45:34,480 You too.