What's going on? Ladies and gents?
Robert Sykes keto, Savage.com. And today I've got special guest
Kristen bear on the line for you.
She is a board certified, family medical doctor, and we dive into
all things Quito and medicine. She was a former vegan has been
45 years or was 45 years. I should say, as we talked about
that kind of why she transitioned out of that from
there. She went to paleo.
So we talked about that. And then we drove into Quito and
what she's noticed having been keto for as long as she has.
And then we talked about how he do.
Has kind of changed the game a lot within the medical
community, kind of what the future of that may look like
some some possible. Pitfalls some obstacles and some
ways to overcome them. So really enjoyed the
conversation, learned a ton from Chris and she's a wealth of
knowledge. Hope you learned something as
well. Sit back, relax.
Enjoy the conversation. And we're live, Chris, and I are
you. I'm good.
Thanks. How are you doing?
I'm doing great for anybody. That does not know which would
be everybody. This is our second take on the
podcast. We had a pretty good
conversation the first time and then I literally lost all the
audio. My computer crashed right?
After we ended the recording and I just felt terrible.
So I appreciate you jumping back on here with me.
Yeah, no problem at all. It was a good conversation.
Hopefully, we can recap the highlights of it.
Yes. Well let's start with them.
I guess this will be the second time here, a little background
from you but give the audience a little background on you your
past kind of what brought you into the space and kind of I
know we talked about you doing quite a little a lot of
different nutritional protocols prior to finding your way into
the low carb keto space. Yeah, so my background I was
diagnosed with lupus of probably about 10 years ago and at the
time we didn't really get much nutritional training.
In medical school but I was convinced there was something I
could do to treat my autoimmune symptoms which were a mix of
body aches joint. Pains fatigue headaches, just
general malaise and not feeling well I was convinced.
There was something I could do outside of traditional
medication. So I started reading about
alternative treatments and I came across a book that led me
to a vegan diet as a means of controlling autoimmune disease.
So, I was vegan for about five years and I did not feel any
better. I actually think by symptoms got
worse and at a whole bunch of other problems.
Creep up during that time, like a B12.
Deficiency started to develop horrible migraines, ulcers, I
was extremely irritable and anxious and depressed, and went
on antidepressants, and it was just, it was a rough few years
so after Five years of the vegan lifestyle.
I thought this is not working. I need to try something else and
I discovered Rob Wolf's work with paleo and gave Leo a try
and pretty quickly. I started to notice some
improvements and definitely had more energy and my symptoms from
lupus definitely improved but they weren't quite completely
alleviated and I took it up a notch and did the Paleo
Autoimmune protocol, which was great but I found it a little
challenging to stick to for those who aren't familiar.
It's it's pretty restrictive. You eliminate dairy grains.
Nightshades nuts and seeds, and it's a pretty restrictive diet,
but admittedly, I did feel better when when I was on it,
but all this time, I just, it still was not feeling 100%.
I was on and off of steroids plus daily medication for lupus,
Yes. And I was on more and more
medication for migraines, which word like the one thing that
we're not getting better and if anything they were getting
worse, they were getting worse while you were paleo.
Yeah, yeah. And you know, some of it, you
tribute, maybe it's stress lack of sleep.
During this time, I was going through residency which is, you
know, not the best years of your life.
And, you know, there there are other factors that could have
played in but I was really, really becoming debilitated by
Daily migraines. I was throwing up and almost
dysfunctional. When I had one that led me to a
book called the migraine Miracle by dr.
Josh Turk net. And that was the first time I
had ever heard of the ketogenic diet all through medical school
and residency, never heard of this way of eating, even as a
treatment for epilepsy, never crossed our studies.
So, I researched it for a while. First, because it was so, Out of
the normal for what we're taught, right?
You know, we're taught to eat low fat, high fiber, fruits and
vegetables and then this keto diets telling us the opposite.
Eat a high fat diet eliminate grains and I really just wanted
to research it on my own first to make sure it wasn't going to
give me a heart attack and I it just kind of opened up this
whole new world of medicine that I had not been exposed to before
and all these Research and how our nutritional guidelines came
to be and I felt confident. It was safe to try and within a
couple weeks, my migraines were completely gone and I was able
to wean off of four medications pretty quickly and which I
thought was miraculous after having tried everything else
just simply changing. My diet was the most effective
treatment for migraines. And what I wasn't expecting is
that my autoimmune symptoms them's all seem to get better as
well. So after that I started
researching more and more about keto and other applications and
the mechanisms of how it really worked.
And I I've been a huge advocate for it ever since.
That's also I want to dive into. So like you I mean most doctors
and medical professionals like when they go through human
Medical School residency. Like you're given a very minimum
you touch on nutrition very minimally throughout all the
teachings. I mean, I've heard some people
say it's like not even a full page on a textbook hardly with,
with that said, like when you're doing this.
I mean, you're taught and told about how you got to, you know,
mitigate any unnecessary saturated fats and whatnot.
So it's like it's like not even coming from a textbook, was just
kind of like here. Say like the word on the street
so to speak, but then you start actually incorporating that
style of eating and you notice improvements within a few weeks
kind of crazy that. That's exactly it.
We really did not have any Ditional education during during
those years of medical school and residency.
If anything we learned about vitamins and nutritional
deficiencies but not what the proper human diet is.
And it is just kind of going with the Norms of what everyone
else is doing limit that and go with the Ada guidelines and the
American diabetic Association and it's just it was not doing
anything for me and Quickly, I came to realize where these
guidelines came from and it's kind of faulty cherry-picked
science and with people who have financially driven agenda.
And it's a little concerning that so many health
professionals and doctors succumb to all of these
guidelines Without Really knowing where they came from and
the dangers of what we're doing. Yeah, it is, it is mind-boggling
backtracking a little bit more when you were Vegan for five
years, when you were you doing, like a, some assuming you were
pretty knowledgeable about vitamins nutrients efficiencies.
That's what you were studying, basically, did you notice that?
Like most, I feel like most vegans have a nutrient
deficiency over a period of time.
My maintain that lifestyle, that's honestly what a lot of
people State when it comes to, like, all, like, podcast whatnot
are talking about, how And vegan diets leads to some type of
malnutrition nutrient deficiency.
Were you pretty Keen keyed in on that and trying to be?
I just want top of your nutrition and top of your
supplementation and whatnot. While you were being, yes, I
definitely tried and you, there's like, with keto, there's
various ways to do a vegan diet, you can eat Whole Foods and be
very clean about it or you can eat.
You can still eat processed junkie carbs all the time and I
really tried to eat a clean Diet then I ate a ton of beans and
lentils and leafy greens. And peanut butter was my go-to.
I was I was always hungry when I was vegan and I could I could
eat a jar of peanut butter in a day which not healthy, not
recommending it, but they did. Definitely try to keep an eye on
a bunch of, you know, vitamins and minerals specifically
protein and b12 which people become deficient in.
And what I thought was interesting was we're always
taught it beat. Of deficiency takes years to
develop and I developed a B12 deficiency, less than two years
in, you know, we're taught, it's 56 years without animal
products, but no, it, it hit me pretty quickly.
And that's with supplementation. So, I was not doing
intermuscular injections, I was doing sublingual and, you know,
not taking it every day as much as I could, but I thought I was
taking enough where it would be a while.
But I definitely, Flipped B12 deficiency pretty quickly.
So is there like, I don't know, I feel like there's so many
supplements out there for a vegan based diet, that kind of
minimizes that yet. Even in spite of all those
supplements, you feel like so many people are having these
deficiencies. Like, is there, is there any way
to like really hedge your bets, and make sure you're doing it
right? You know, I think it takes.
It takes a lot of planning and skill with someone who is
qualified. To assess the nutritional status
of foods. And what I think people forget
is just because a certain food has however, much of this
vitamin or that mineral or protein, that does not mean your
body is able to absorb and utilize it.
And I think that's the tricky part just because you're eating
all of this plant-based protein or getting, you know, your B12
supplements how much is your body actually absorbing and
utilizing is a complete lie. Lee different amount and that is
it's such an individual concept to that there isn't a
one-size-fits-all. So it does take a lot of testing
and a lot of planning and you really have to stay on top of it
and getting your levels checked frequently and being in tune
with how you feel and they think and it's goes with with every
type of diet, people kind of get tunnel vision and they want to
believe that the diet they're doing is perfect and working.
For them and they tune out some of the red flags.
That could be signaling that there is a problem.
Totally, totally. So when you switch from that, to
a Paleo Approach and you started incorporating meet again.
Did you notice like a pretty Sudden Change with the
introduction of meat? Yes, I think chicken was kind of
the Gateway started with chicken.
The remember thinking it was the most satisfying meal I had had
in years and after that led to To fish and then in red meat
following, but my energy and my moods improved right away.
It's a, that was the biggest thing.
And I was, like, I mentioned before when I was vegan, I was
anxious and depressed, and just very irritable all the time.
And within, I don't know, it wasn't long within maybe a month
or two of incorporating meet back in Irene to off of my
antidepressant to, which was a big deal for me.
You know, I hated saying I was on antidepressants and I felt
better without them and it was just really mind opening that
adding meat and just I think a lot of it was the fat omega-3
specifically that it really helped stabilize mood and energy
with all this, you know, evidence in research.
That points to the benefits of having a meat in your diet and
just like the anecdotal evidence, like what you've
experienced yourself. Is it, is it still kind of crazy
to like hear all the medical recommendations of minimizing
meat intake? Yes, I mean, it really is, it's
a very frustrating part of my job and there is some basis.
I mean, we don't know all the long-term effects of a very
meat. Heavy diet like a carnivore
diet. I do think there's a lot of
benefit but it's the ultimate Elimination Diet, but I do,
Definitely have some concerns still with the amount of
saturated fat for people with genetic varieties.
For example, with the apoe4 alleles and a bow, a to, there
are some variations in how people metabolize saturated fat
that I, you know, would maybe pause for these people before
saying, you know, eat red meat Ribeyes every day of the week.
But for in general, I do think it's safe to eat.
That fat in certain quantities in some people are completely
fine and can tolerate much higher limits but I think in
general chicken seafood, red meat should be part of
everyone's diet for the bio available nutrients and the
nutritional benefit that they comes with eating these Foods.
I feel like there's a especially a benefit to people with
autoimmune issues from the the sake of it being such an
elimination that you're kind of Wiping the Slate clean.
Let your body have a, you know, a fresh start.
So, to speak with with people that are totally healthy, don't
have the autoimmune issues, are they, are they missing anything
per se from not having the vegetation?
I mean, I'm definitely Carnival rest.
I'm not hardcore carnivore, but I eat predominantly meat-based
for sure. But I mean, am I losing anything
by not having ample amounts of vegetation?
Yeah, so that's a that's a great question and definitely Only an
area of debate and I think what people will jump at you first
with is fiber. They're going to tell you, you
need fiber for proper digestion and health and say it e.
And if you're in ketosis and you're producing
beta-hydroxybutyrate I don't believe there's a need for fiber
in the diet. And the reason is fiber is
fermented in the colon and it produces a substance called
Burek acid and that kind of nourishes the Walls of the
colon. And when you're in ketosis and
producing these ketones, the beta-hydroxybutyrate and you're
getting a very similar substance and it's believed that the
butyrate is going to serve the same function as the butyric
acid, that's the product of fermentation of fiber.
So I do think that you are okay without fiber in your diet.
Yes. There is going to be alterations
of the gut microbiome but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
It's just different with dietary changes.
If you're eliminating plant food, or going more, meat-based
you're going to have a change in the gut microflora so we you
know this is an area of a lot of research right now and we don't
know what the long-term effects are going to be.
But it doesn't seem to have a detrimental effect right now at
least in the short term and they can even have Positive benefit
and they think there is a lot of long-term benefit to having low
amounts of insulin preventing insulin resistance, having the
anti-inflammatory benefits of ketones as a specifically in
terms of heart disease and neurological disease.
So I don't at this point, I can't say with 100% certainty.
But from the research that I've done, I don't think you're
missing anything by eliminating plants.
From the diet, they think it's a personal preference right now
and it depends on the individual and that the genetics and their
genetic makeup and just their taste and preference.
But in general, it's an individual feel and I think
you're going to get great nutrition.
If you eat a nose-to-tail carnivore diet.
Yeah, I agree. I feel like with any any major
switch in your primary fuel source, you're going to have
something like that gesture of rebound.
So, to speak, I mean whether You're switching from you know a
lot of vegetation to plant our to carnivore or the other way
around or even if you're like you know, ki do.
But eating a lot of salads and everything Stone.
Then you try to go in dabble in carnivore.
There's like a two to four week adaptation.
Period. Would like your your gut has to
get readjusted and your bathroom usage.
May be all over the place during that adaptation period.
But once you equalize I feel like it pretty much levels out.
Yeah, I agree with that and it's true.
It's just people getting nervous like, oh, it's been a couple
days. My digestion is off.
It's going to take longer than a couple days to adapt.
I think that's a great time frame to 24 weeks and give it a
solid two to four weeks, and it's going to be a little
different from for everyone. It depends on what your gut
microbiome is to begin with and what your diet was like, before
you made the dietary changes to, I think what a lot of people do
notice right away when they eliminate more plant food, is
that Bloating goes down which is a nice benefit.
So you talk to patients who say you know every time I eat I just
feel bloated and distended and you take away the fiber the
grains and plant food and that goes away pretty quickly.
Yeah. Feel like that's like raw food
raw vegetables. I mean if you're consuming a
bunch of raw plant foods like that's all going to get
fermented in the gun and you're going to have the gases that
come as a result of that, which is what People feel so bloated.
Whereas if you're if you are going to eat vegetables like me
personally I always try and Veer towards something that's you
know already fermented like a kimchi or sometimes sauerkraut
or something. It that way.
It's not going to have near the fermentation process inside of
me. Yeah it makes a huge difference
and just going back to where I was in my early 20s, you
remembered not eating all day long.
If I wanted to feel Slim in a dress that night just because I
do if I ate something anything, I was going to feel bloated.
Didn't more distended and it's great.
Now, like once you figure out that it's just the the
plant-based food that's going to cause that if you can go ahead
and eat eggs or chicken or beef that day and be fine, not have
to starve yourself and still feel great.
When you go out that night, yeah, totally, it's liberating.
Yes, it really is. What about like a lot of
carnivores. They talk about plants as
anti-nutrients basically. So they've got the like, the
oxalates For example, in this vegetation, they not they have
nutrients in them, but because of these anti-nutrients, it's
basically causing more of a net negative effect than a positive
effect, but you're taking right. Yeah.
So oxalates are getting a lot of attention.
These days and Sally Norton. If you're familiar with her work
sheet is a great resource when it comes to oxalates.
So we always talk about the benefits and nutrition of
plant-based foods, but yeah, there's just Much attention to
the anti-nutrients and the whole premise of antioxidants and
getting this you know, benefit from plants.
Is the concept of for me, sis is where you're putting low-grade
stress on the body and it sort of rebuilds itself and comes
back stronger, or it causes production of the body's
internal antioxidant glutathione.
But people ignore the fact, or they don't understand the
concept of The family antioxidants work that you know
you are placing some stress on the body plants are not don't
want to be eaten their whole premise, they want to reproduce
and replicate like humans. That's their biology.
So they have these built-in components to distract their
predators or poison their predators or other animals that
want to eat them if you will. So their biology and their Their
operating system is very different than the human
operating system. So there are anti-nutrients and
chemical reactions that occur when we ingest plants that are
going to cause this low-grade stress on the body and there's
varying levels of toxicity or anti-nutrients that come along
with that and there's also phytic acid which binds to other
vitamins and minerals and prevents their absorption.
That's going back to Talking about the bioavailability in
these plant-based Foods just because the plant has on the
label for, you know, on the package that it has 70 percent
of the daily. Recommended amount of iron that
does not mean you're going to absorb all of that and that's
largely because of the phytic acid and some of the
anti-nutrients that go in it. Gotcha, gotcha.
There. I mean, with, with animal
products there's like I mean there Finally, some had created
better than the others, but I feel like generally speaking, a
poor quality Animal product is still going to have much less of
a net negative effect than a high quality plant product.
I mean, I may be wrong in assuming that but I feel like
there's just a lot more - to be had with all these
anti-nutrients and and acids and whatnot.
That could be somewhat poisonous.
No, I agree with that. And I completely agree with that
and there is, I do have a lot of concerns with farming.
Practices in this country specifically and there's varying
levels of quality of meat and seafood.
But in general I do think even a lower Quality Meat is going to
be more beneficial than a lot of the plant-based food.
I think, one thing that I would definitely caution people
against is like the heavy metals and lot of the Seafoods
depending on where you're getting in sourcing these fish,
for instance, I used to live in Spokane, Washington.
That the river was so, you know, bad with heavy metals that you
were not allowed to eat more than one fish a year.
Wow, easy. But I think that like stuff like
that causes, you know, there to be a frowned upon issue with
Justin of meat, but I feel like if you're conscious of that, you
know, knowing where your food comes from, you can mitigate any
of that on the front end and not to worry about it.
Yeah, that that's very true. And this is a little out of my
area of expertise but there are Are binders and and other
supplements, you can take to help bind the heavy metals and
toxins like spirulina and other sources to help mitigate some of
that effect. But again that's that's a little
out of my scope. I know dr.
Mercola has done a lot of work with that and would be a good
resource. But yeah sourcing sourcing is
important and especially with Plastics in the oceans and
things as well. I think people have that option.
To buy higher quality Meat and seafood.
It would definitely be to their benefit.
Totally agree. Totally agree.
So, so what is your area of expertise as it relates to the
medical field. So I'm a board certified, family
physician, and I'm actually studying to take a second board
exam in obesity medicine, which will be in February.
And I plan to take my practice and two full-time, Barry
attrition and helping people, man.
Manage the disease of obesity and all the comorbidities that
come with that specifically diabetes and hypertension and
just really want to kind of dive into lifestyle and nutrition and
help help people get the proper education and diet to help
manage their disease. I feel like working in Family
Medicine like you do currently and you'll probably see the same
thing when you transition to the bariatric surgery and whatnot
our bariatric. Honey, do you notice like just
certain patterns like pattern recognition?
And a lot of the people you've worked with, like, with regard
to Lifestyle habits, or nutritional Habits.
Like, You know, people that are much healthier to, to be a
certain way versus those that aren't healthy.
All tend to follow a similar pattern, like what are some of
those patterns you recognize? Yeah.
I mean, there's it's very basic and what a used to take for
granted as common knowledge, you realize people are still very
unsure about. And one of the biggest things is
sugar-sweetened Beverages. And in Family Medicine, I deal
with a lot of pediatric patients, and adults.
And it's shocking to see how many people are still drinking
juice and soda is their main form of liquid during the day.
There's one thing I would like to promote quickly is get those
out of your diet completely. There's no no need for
sugar-sweetened beverages. Other things I notice is people
who exercise and specifically lift weights tend to pay a lot
more attention to their diet. And what I do really worried
about a sarcopenia which is decreasing muscle mass
especially as patient's age and I think establishing a good
resistance, training program, weight lifting, or just
bodyweight exercises early on is a, it's a great thing to do, but
In general, I think one patients.
Start one aspect and if it's working out or trying to change
their diet, the rest kind of follows.
It's like they start seeing some success and then they want to
take it to the next step. But, you know, in general, the
healthier people, they work out regularly, they do some sort of
strength training, they don't have sugar, sweetened beverages,
they limit fast food. Those are kind of the big
things. Yeah.
And I never cease to be amazed at how How much people drink
these sugar-sweetened beverages? My brother is his bad about it,
he he's gotten better, but he used to drink these Fanta drinks
and I didn't know it was a fan, what a Fanta was and I looked at
the label in one serving is like, 79 grams of sugar.
Like it blew my mind. Isn't that correct?
And there's people that drink several of them a day and kids
specifically, it's, it's crazy. I mean, you'll have someone who
will lose 10 pounds. Pounds in a month, just from
eliminating soda from their diet.
Well what I understand is there's so many Alternatives
like Z via you have your drink Z via I have not tried it but I
I've heard good things about it. Yeah I mean it's just it's
basically water that's sweetened with stevia but there's like
literally a z via alternative for every popular soft drink
either. I just like a Coke version.
A yeah, you know, Cola, I mean there's there's everything and
it's like to me. I mean, I don't have a very
well. I'm not a connoisseur of soft
drinks by any means, but I can't tell a difference.
I don't feel like I'm missing out, so I feel like that would
be an easy, easy switch. It would make such a huge
impact. Yeah, and I think that's a great
Point. These little switches do add up
and I'm not a huge advocate for artificial sweeteners.
But Stevia is one where I personally drink it on an
occasion. I love grabbed Wolf's Lament The
electrolyte supplement with Steve via in it.
That's kind of my thing right now.
But yeah, a lot of the artificial sweeteners.
I think have have some side effects that are going to be
unpleasant. But Stevia is the exception, I
think that's a great alternative for sugar.
Yes. Davey among friend of like this
pretty pretty same for the most part for sure.
Yeah. And you're absolutely right
about, you know, people like that train and work out because
when you do that, like when I first started working, I didn't
I didn't give any thought to nutrition when I thought the it.
This was on the training but you start following a healthier
lifestyle and then it just branches and buds into so many
different other aspects and nutrition is bound to follow.
Because you want to maximize any of the work that you're putting
in the gym. And I don't know.
It's like there's a lot of misinformation out there in the
gyms fears, like the locker room, talk is often filled with
bad nutrition advice. But nutrition advice is often
times better than no nutritional advice.
Even if it's misinformed and there's just so many people out
there that have no No common knowledge to like the basics of
what even a macro nutrient is like that, that's Greek to some
people. Yeah, it is it what I really
like to talk to my diabetic patients, about is limiting
their carbohydrates specifically.
And this isn't even getting into Kido.
This is just, let's decrease your carbohydrate consumption
and some of the questions that I get, what we would you and I
would probably be like, of course, that's a carbohydrate.
They really don't know. You're asking about price,
they're asking about oatmeal. They're asking about whole-grain
bread and you realize you really have to start with the basics
with people and explain what a carbohydrate is, what a protein
is, what a fat is, how your body is going to respond to that in
terms of insulin. And it's just, it's amazing how
little nutritional information people get.
It's kind of funny because like you and I we are in in the
Cheetos fear. Like we're, we're rubbing
shoulders with people that are making waves.
We're making waves like we know a lot of we have a pulse
basically on on the keto space but like for us I feel like
we've we've been here for a while.
We've kind of questioned whether or not we're at the peak of it
all whether it's starting to start going down, but then you
start hearing and talking to people that just don't really
know much about nutrition at all.
And it's like, wow, there's so much work that we have to do
still so much. Work.
I know it's great. You have these platforms such as
Instagram and Facebook, where you can collaborate with
like-minded people who are just as excited about keto and having
benefits and the branch out into carnivore.
And it's great. And you almost forget about the
other segments of the population, which is the
majority that have no idea what this is about kind of my next
project going into 2020. I really want to help clear up
the myth of Quito, just being a fad diet and the concept of
dirty keto, which has become kind of my pet.
Peeve voted right, that they can eat all these keto snacks and
Alternatives and he do cookies and baked goods and bacon and
butter. And it's it's not all about just
being in ketosis. It's the nutrition that comes
from the foods that you're eating as well for Optimal
Health. And the I think there's a lot of
work to be done still Yeah, it is.
That's a good point because like, there's so much I mean,
like he knows gotten so big now within our Circle that it's
like, people don't know. They they feel like they can
kind of it's like it's almost reverse rebounded in a way.
Like you go super strict into it and then you start to like
loosen up and I don't know, some people go, even stricter and
some people loosen up and become incredibly lacks with it, but I
feel like the whole dirty keto thing is is really popular.
The right now as well. And I've never really been one.
I mean I feel like dirty Quito is better than a bunch of
processed carbs. Yeah.
But I don't necessarily think that.
I mean a lot of people are doing dirty keto know better.
You know. Right.
And you know I have a it isn't even a true patient.
It's a actually one of my nurses husband's.
I've been helping on the side, he's a diabetic and he has some
weight that he wants to lose. And so we've been talking to him
about Quito and he's doing a phenomenal.
Nominal job and he's lost some weight but within a few days we
got him off of his insulin and his hemoglobin A1c has gone down
and his blood work just looks incredible but he's doing a
dirty keto version and I find myself unable to argue with him
right now because he's made such good progress.
I'm hoping eventually we can kind of get him into some more
nutrient dense foods but yeah even even dirty keto people Are
having improvements in their metabolic Health, which is hard
to argue against? Yeah, I feel like it's a good, I
mean, if it's a stepping stone, then I'm all for.
Like when I first started keto I was you know I was going through
all the different recipe books and learn how to make keto
cheesecake and keto like all these look like me was basically
but now I feel like the longer I've been adapted and become you
know self-sufficient with my nutrition.
It's like I don't desire that anymore.
I don't create any my don't feel like Missing out or sacrificing
by not having it. So I don't have to make some
kind of look like me or that has subpar ingredients.
I was the exact same way I definitely started as more of a
dirty keto and transitioned into a cleaner version and noticed I
felt better and they think some of sometimes I'll still get
sugar Cravings. It's definitely not.
As much as one. I was eating a plant-based diet
where I crave sugar every day but a all notice I'm more in
tune with with cravings when I eat a healthier keto based diet
and it's usually because I'm deficient in something else, I'm
not getting enough protein, I didn't get enough fat.
I'm dehydrated, I'm tired. I'm stressed.
Feel like it allows you to become more in sync with your
cravings and your appetite and you learn to trust your appetite
again. Totally agree.
I do feel like you know, whenever I do have like the keto
sweets or whatnot, I notice an increase.
Recent and cravings for more sweets.
That like again, not near as bad as what I was eating carbs.
But I started out as an uptick in my desire for those foods and
I feel like I'd be Keen to get your opinion on this, but
there's a lot of, you know, sweeteners that are are like
they have a zero glycemic index score.
So they're not really raising your blood glucose at all.
And I've tested and not seen an increase in blood glucose, but
I'm curious to see if it would result in increase in blood
insulin, because you're still sending a signal to your brain
that you are ingesting. Something sweet.
I'm assuming it's going to result in an insulin response,
right? Yeah.
And that is the million-dollar question.
And what we don't often hear about when people are talking
about the glycemic index, just because your glucose is not
raising, that doesn't tell us anything about what insulin is
doing. To keep your glucose level
stable. And that's also how people kind
of miss the early warning signs of pre-diabetes and diabetes
because They could have normal blood sugar levels, but that
could be requiring a massive amount of insulin to keep it
normal and just these artificial sweeteners.
Maybe, your glucose is staying stable, but it could be all
like, could be spiking your insulin regardless.
So a lot of them I do stay away from, except for Stevia and monk
fruit, like you said, but I think you also raised a good
point about, you know, if I do have Some keto treats their
snacks. If I eat them too often, I start
to Crave sweetness again and they just have to stop it.
You know, I think that's that's a slippery slope especially for
people who have had a carbohydrate addiction or are
trying to lose weight and trim down.
And a lot of that, a lot of these people who are trying to
lose weight, they do have some degree of insulin resistance.
They do need to be careful with artificial sweeteners.
Are you familiar? This concept of insulin
resistance due to long-term get attention.
Basically, you remove carbohydrates from your diet for
so long that your body fails to know how to function in the
presence of carbohydrates. And I've heard a lot of people
talk about this lately and I'm just curious to know if you've
if you've seen much research on that, I haven't done a lot of
research on it, but from what I have done and this is kind of a
normal physiological and That station just like when you're
transitioning into ketosis, there's an Adaptive phase.
It's going to take a while for your body to efficiently, use
ketones. And sometimes it takes a few
months for people. And when you eliminate
carbohydrates from your diet, your body is going to have an
adverse response initially, and then you're going to adapt
again. So, if you've been carnivore for
several years and then you start adding some carbohydrate back
into your diet, you might have an elevated.
Added glucose response, you might have some signs of insulin
resistance initially, but then after a couple months, it does
go back to Baseline and it does go back down, and it doesn't
even take a couple months for some people.
Sometimes it's a couple weeks to adapt.
So I'm really not concerned about that.
I think it's a normal response and there's an adaptation face
and in your body's going to self-correct, don't think it's
going to lead to diabetes or permanent insulin resistance.
Any type of long-term consequence?
Yeah that's been my thought towards the whole idea.
I think you know like like you said with anything that's going
to be an adaptation period And I feel like since glucose is a
very efficient fuel source like your body Burns, it very
readily. It's not going to take even as
long to get back into use and that is it does for ketones to
become efficiently use. So I feel like Peoples eye.
People have legitimately swayed away from the keto diet for fear
of becoming insulin. Austin, which is the most
backwards thing I've ever heard in my life.
Yes, I agree with that. I think the best, you know, I do
like the concept of metabolic flexibility, and being able to
use whatever substrate, your body has available for energy.
And with that being said, I do think it's not a bad idea to
take small periods away from being completely carb-free.
I'm not saying that needs to be on a weekly basis or even a
monthly basis. Door does that mean indulging
and cookies and chips and cake but bringing back you know maybe
some sweet potato or a healthier source of carbohydrate.
Even if it's 100, 150 grams for a few days, making sure your
body is properly utilizing glucose without these spikes.
I think that's it. That's a fairly reasonable thing
to do to keep yourself metabolically flexible but if
you don't, I don't think it's going to cause any problem and
They think staying in ketosis is one of the best things to do to
keep your insulin levels though and prevent insulin resistance.
Yeah, I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate with you because I am
definitely on the side of just strict keto.
I mean I don't say suggest that everybody does that.
But me personally, I've been straight keto for years and I
don't feel any desire or need to introduce carbs.
I mean, like metabolic flexibility for me, is not
something that I feel like I need because I doubt I'll be in
Addition where I am forced to eat carbs.
I feel like there's an abundance of food and that day and age we
live in and I don't have to resort to carbs.
Do you think that we kind of talked about this already?
Like there's not really any long-term disadvantage to
staying straight. Key to that, you're aware of,
not that I'm aware of, no, and there's plenty of people for
medical reasons such as epilepsy or they have a glute one
transporter deficiency that do stay in Quito.
Isis without going into metabolically flexible period
where they're utilizing glucose again and they think that's
fine. And you know, it's it's the
concept of Bio individuality. If you do best in ketosis I have
not seen any evidence or research to suggest you need to
break that. It's all individual preference
at this point. And I think as far as a health
goes, I have seen no no reason to say you need to break break
out of ketosis. Totally agree.
I want to dive into the what's
on the horizon for you. So you're getting another Board
Test going through the bariatric program.
So what does that entail? Exactly, right.
So, there's so most people are familiar with bariatric surgery
and getting the either sleeve or banding or gastric bypass.
Yes. And within the past few years
especially with the growing obesity epidemic, there's become
more of a need for non-surgical. Berry attrition, 's that help
manage. Not only the surgical patients,
but all of the patients that are trying to fight obesity in a
non-surgical way. And that's kind of what I want.
That's not kind of what I want to focus on.
That is exactly what I want to focus on where I'm kind of
deviating from the norm. Is that a Of the focus for
non-surgical Bariatrics is on weight loss medications that we
do have some, some great medications that have come out,
but like with any other medication, there's a lot of
side effects and adverse reactions and possible
complications that can arise from them.
And in my preparation for the exam, and all the conferences
and seminars, feel like we're just dropping the ball on
lifestyle and nutrition. Yes, it's mentioned for a bit
and it's just not not the focus. And part of the reason is just
the structure of the medical system.
We're really being forced to see as many patients as possible in
a day and sometimes we have 5 or 10 minutes to spend with the
patient. And as you know that is that
doesn't even skim. The surface for a proper amount
of time to talk to someone about overhauling their diet and
lifestyle. So I am hoping to get this board
certification out of the way in February and then I really want
to have a more unique weight loss Focus where I can hopefully
spend a decent amount of time with patients on a regular
basis, teaching them more about lifestyle and nutrition and
different options for them. And if needed, you know, we can
do the more traditional medications to help assist and
stuff by really, really want to focus.
The nutrition and lifestyle and that's going to be a bit of a
challenge and traditional hospital just because the
pressures from hospital Administration and everything.
So hopefully, I can get my own Clinic started at some point and
going to do things my way and hopefully achieve some success
for patients. Yeah, I mean, that would be
awesome. I feel like I've talked with
several doctors in the space and one of their largest
frustrations is They've got all this knowledge and experience
with you know how keto can be a healthy alternative to what
people are doing. But I mean you cannot Som
something that doesn't have. That's not literate in this
nutritional protocol. I mean, you cannot expect them
to walk away after a five-minute conversation and have any
direction whatsoever, that's applicable.
I mean you have to actually sit down and give some serious time
to them and the way everything structure now.
I mean, it's just not feasible and it's frustrating.
So, So I can see where the frustration comes from because
it's a broken system. I mean you're basically
penalized if you're not seeing X-Men number of patients and the
way the world Works around money.
I mean, hospitals are structured so that they can prescribe
medication and see a lot of, a lot of patients that's just not
really a recipe for a successful nutritional education towards.
Yeah, that's it. Exactly made.
It takes two minutes to write a prescription for someone.
It takes an hour to properly. Their nutrition and start to
pave the way for Change. And unfortunately, in medicine,
you're not paid for, for quality of time spent, you're paid to do
procedures and you're paid by volume.
So the hospital Administration, they want you to pump out a lot
of patients every day and that's just not conducive to the the
type of work I want to do right now.
You feel like there's a like a bubble so to speak in the
Medical realm, that could bust. Like when you look at
prescription drugs for instance and the cost of prescription
drugs and the rising obesity epidemic as an example, I mean,
the drugs are getting ridiculous.
I mean people are not able to afford these forever and the
insurance. I mean, I feel like there's got
to be, there's got to be a Tipping Point at some at some
point in the near future. I would imagine.
Yes, it's going to implode. It's just a matter of time.
The costs are completely out of control. all there's really
nothing being done to get that contained medications are out of
control co-pays deductibles, it's going to burst and what's
that is we have such great technology and Innovation and
resources in this country but accessing them and providing
quality Care is still lacking compared to other models in
different countries and it's just it's incredibly frustrating
for It's for providers and everyone in between and I think
it is it's just a matter of time before a major overhaul is
coming and I think unfortunately it's gonna take some bad
outcomes before before it changes.
Yeah, film, almost pessimistic for saying it but I feel like
we're so stubborn and money-driven as a nation really
that we're not going to stop doing what we're doing, as long
as we're making money. So it's like, it almost has to
implode and For us to open our eyes and recognize.
There's got to be a better way. Yes, I actually share the same
sentiment. It's unfortunate and I don't
know how to change it sooner or for the better but just the
whole landscape of medicine. If you kind of look at the
rising cost of Health Care in the past, couple decades, you'll
see on the graphs at the same time, there's been this huge
right. Eyes in the kind of middle
management, all these administrative positions and
it's just insane. There's people that have never
treated patients with business backgrounds, that are now
dictating how doctors and other health care providers are doing
their jobs and it's just crazy to me that people, without any
patient care experience or telling doctors how Have to
treat patients. How many patients they have to
see a day and telling them to conform to all these, you know,
guidelines and Norms. When there's every patient is
different. You can't treat one patient the
same as another. And you think that's, that's a
huge part of the problem too. We have to get the business
aspect out of medicine again. And I as you said it's also
money-driven now and once people start knowing how to make money
from it, they're not they're not going to relent that power.
I think it's It's really gonna take a major overhaul to change
this. Yeah, well what I'd love to see
personally just has an individual is, I mean the way
the way human psychology works at least at least for me is like
there has to be a risk reward system in place, you know.
So like for insurance, for instance, you know, I think it
makes sense for people that are very healthy, you know,
health-conscious nutrition oriented to, to see a benefit
from an expense stamp. Towards their health insurance.
Like they should, they shouldn't have to pay the same amount that
somewhere that has no care to learn.
No, no self-discipline. No.
I mean, literally means fast food every day.
Like they're all lumped into the same equation and then charge
the same rate. And it's like, let's incentivize
people indirectly by money. Like if money is the driving
Factor, let's incentivize them to save more money, by giving
them better rates if they actually take care of themselves
and put put the best foot forward to learn about this.
I love that concept. I really do and it's you're
right, it's not fair that people who are taking care of
themselves are paying the same price for those who really
aren't. The only thing about that model
that makes me a little nervous. It's who's defining, what is
healthy, especially in this day and age, where there's so much.
Bad all between different diet forms like vegan versus
carnivore. And you know, what's the Chance
of cholesterol. I worry that.
Government guidelines are going to mandate, what's healthy and
what's not and you know if you eat meat that's going to be
considered unhealthy or something like that.
It makes me a little nervous as to who's going to dictate what's
healthy. And what's not, it's true, it's
true. We seem to like open up our own
board certified keto specific Sanctuary with their own keto
Insurance, their own keto doctors, their own key to Health
Care System would just be like, total, like was just ostracize
herself or anybody else. Hey, I'm all for that having my
own keto Clinic. As is my dream?
That's that's my goal someday. Hopefully in the next few years
I can I can make it work and give it cheap rates to people
who are complying with the keto lifestyle will shoot.
If we can do that, then we can just lead by example and
hopefully others. You know that are not in belief
at the front. End will say that we're doing
something right and suit, right? But I think that is a great way
to control costs to. I mean The money that people
spend on medications for their diabetes and all the
complications that come from it and other lifestyle diseases.
It's mind-boggling. That's where you're really going
to make a dent in health care costs.
If we can get these diseases, under control through lifestyle
and it's just, you're, I think you're right incentivizing.
That is is going to be a great step in the right direction.
I mean looking at like type 2 diabetes as an example.
I mean, I don't You know what, the average cost of insulin is
like for, you know, an average type 2 diabetic spending on
insulin a day. Like what that breaks down to is
it like a, like a public figure this known?
Oh, you know what? I don't know, that's a great
question. I should know that and I think
it's probably dependent on the type of insulin.
If they're on like a glargine plus this Pro like short-acting
long-acting combination. I don't know, but I'm sure it's
not cheap. Quite sure it's not cheap and
that's in addition to probably the metformin that they're on
and maybe another oral agent, typically insolence, kind of The
Last Resort. Like once you exhaust all the
oral medications then you go on to insulin and by then you're
already having other complications you having
retinopathy. You're having enough for apathy
neuropathy. Just all types of complications
where you're seeing three or four different Specialists on
top of that. Yeah, and the solution is just
more insulin. Yes, it's isn't.
That crazy? Just it's so backwards.
When you think about the physiology, you're treating this
insulin resistance and lack of insulin sensitivity with more
insulin, instead of getting rid of the culprit such as
carbohydrates that are the reason people need insulin.
Well, I'm excited for you to roll out.
This this Clinic of your own. Do you have like a rough
timeline on when this is forecasted?
So, If all goes according to plan, I'm hoping once I get my
board exam in February, hopefully work in a bariatric
clinic for a year or so, can I learn the lay of the land and
get get all my resources together?
Hopefully in the next couple of years?
We will we will see that might be a bit aggressive but I've got
some good ideas going and some context I'm working with I'm
currently in Chicago right now. Now, and I think it's going,
it's just not a doctor friendly atmosphere and in Cook County
here. So it's going to probably
require a move as well, which I'm fine with, but I definitely
want to get this going in the next couple years.
Come to Arkansas. I think I'm the only keto person
in Arkansas. We need it, are you?
Hey, I'm I'll go wherever wherever I could make this
happen. I will go.
All right, all right. Well cool deal, Chris and I'm
excited for you. I really am where can people go
to find out more So you can follow along.
So right now my main presence is on Instagram and I'm at
doctoring keto and my website is getting underway.
Hopefully I'll be able to put more attention into that after
this board exam is over. And that's also doctoring.
He do.com. But Instagrams, the the best
place to get in touch with me right now.
Awesome! Are you going to any of the
conference's coming up? I am.
I am going to be at low carb. USA in Boca Raton in mid-January
and then right after that, I'll be going to the metabolic Health
Summit in Long Beach. I think that's like the first
week in February and then I want to get to Quito con this year.
I think that's in June. So those are the big ones on my
radar right now. Well I will be those as well so
I will look forward to meeting you in person.
Yeah, that'll be great. Until next time Chris you have a
good one and let me know if there's ever anything I can do
for you. Thank you so much.
It was great talking to you. Likewise take care.