Hello, ladies and gents Roberts. Thanks, kiddo, Savage that
comment today. I have special guest Michelle
Seager on the line and we dive all into habit-forming, I am
very much. So a habit oriented person I'm
very big into routines. That's just who I am, it's how I
tick. But she has just recently wrote
in a written, a book about how to excel in life, in a
sustainable fashion. If you are not a natural habit
forming person. So I really was excited.
Having podcast pick her brain and just figure out what are
some? Some tangible practical.
All tips and just honestly, what makes people perform one way
over the other. So I thoroughly enjoyed the
conversation. I've got no doubt that you will
take something from this as well.
So that further Ado, sit back, relax and enjoy the podcast with
Michelle Seager. And we are lab Michelle.
How are you greatest Taste of you here?
I'm excited for the conversation.
So I am a big advocate for routines habits, getting
everything dialed in, like I started seeing success in my
life, once I started to, you know, figure out what kind of
habits routine to work well for me personally, and when I was
pitched you as a pun casket, Just you have a very interesting
take on habits and routines and other just kind of dive into
what you found that works well for you and kind of the basis
for your book. But before we dive into them
what what got you started on this life path.
Anyways like what was the motivation for diving deeper
into what makes people sustainably do things?
Well sure, while there was something really specific, I was
getting my first masters degree in.
Kinesiology which is the study of movement in 1993.
And we did a randomized controlled trial with cancer
survivors. Looking to see if exercise could
reduce depressive and anxiety symptoms.
And these were survivors who you know like five years after the
treatment. So they were you know busy
adults not serve not they weren't being they weren't in
treatment. And so anyway we had a finding
That was unexpected despite the fact that the people who
exercised, you know, reducing their depression and anxiety
symptoms compared to the group that didn't, when the study
ended, everyone stopped exercising, not everyone.
Most people, and we knew this, because we called everyone back
and conducted focus groups with them about 12 weeks after the
study and ended, and what became, you know, I asked
people, why do you stop? Exercising and they said, oh my
gosh, Michelle, we are busy. We've got to work and we have
families, and we have this that and the other to do.
And, you know what, became clear to me was that these people had
not stopped exercising, because they were cancer survivors.
They had stopped exercising because they were just busy
adults living their lives. And I thought if people who had
faced a life threatening illness, didn't feel comfortable
or have the right? Skill set to continuously
prioritize their own self care through behaviors like physical
activity. Then we have a real problem in
society and it was that insight and I said, I grabbed that
problem is that that's my problem and I'm going to solve
it. So I hope everything I've been
doing for almost 30 years has been in service of trying to
understand what prevents most people from sustaining self-care
behaviors like Activity and healthy eating.
And most importantly, what, what is the emerging science say
about this? You know, what is my own
research say about this? As well as the research of
others and I've been a health coach for almost that whole time
and what have I learned through working with people.
So that's that's what got me into that.
What do you think? The people I definitely want to
dive into your findings are but out of curiosity what makes you
think the people that are really really good at maintaining
habits and rituals winter? Teens, like, what is it?
That, that predisposes them to be really well at that while
other people are not good at that at all right?
Wow, that's a really important question.
And, you know what, for what I say in the book and I came up
with just a fun way for people to think a little critically
about what they've tried and what works.
And what does I came up with these two new categories calls?
Paul, the have better versus an A bitter and, you know, you
definitely sound like, you're I happen to her and when I think
of someone who, you know, who plant routines and automatic
habits, you're going to work well for, you know, I think of
people like my husband who are very disciplined and organized
and may not have a lot of unexpected hubbub arise in their
life versus other people who might not be as organized as
discipline. If I put myself in that category
and have a lot of unexpected, things arise.
And so those are some pretty big differences that I think
determine whether someone is ultimately going to be
successful with more of a rigid approach to their self care
plans versus people who who just can't seem to maintain that.
I definitely think that, you know, playing The People's
strength is the way to go. I mean, Q.
You don't want to try and fit a square hole or square peg into a
round hole if you want to figure out what is best for the
individual. But is it simply a matter of
teaching that individual how to become more disciplined and
organizers. It totally a reverse engineer
and just doing what works best for them.
Like what does that look like from a practical standpoint like
for you as an example? Sure.
Well, that's another really great question.
No one's asked that question before and I think it's a really
important question. I think to answer that question,
we need to take a step back and understand what the research
shows. So there are always going to be
personality differences that we need to respect.
I don't think as a society, we have approached Behavior change
in a way that has permitted individuals to create strategies
based on their strengths. I don't think we've had as
Enough sophistication in the way we've approached it.
And I also think there's been a Dogma that has predominated our
approach and it's you know you do it right?
Or not at all you hit the bullseye.
And again it works for some people.
I don't think it works for most and so again to refer back to
your question, the research that is looking at whether people for
example, with eating When they look at, for example, there's a
study a weight loss registry strata study.
And they wanted to see over a Year's period of time who was
more successful maintaining their weight loss over a year
and their primary research question or the one they wrote
about was the people who come to weekends, who, you know, again,
these are people who've lost weight and their there must be
maintaining some time. Of eating plan to maintain their
weight. And so the research question was
do people who come to weekends and are kind of, they're more
flexible with what they eat versus people who are more rigid
right sticking to the plan which group better sustains their
weight loss. And this is just one of many
studies that shows that people who are more flexible when it
comes to, like a special occasion, like the weekend.
Or a party actually are better are more successful sustaining
weight loss and sticking with ultimately a more consistent
pattern and and you know, so that's the way I'm going to
answer your question. I don't know that it's going to
help people like me. For example, reverse into
engineer to try to become more of a habit or like my husband.
I don't know that we can change, you know, because it's not just
about our personalities. It's also about her.
Contacts. Now I want to be very clear
planning is very important for everyone.
Whether you have a really busy life, whether you're a habit or
not have or whether you're retired and you you know your
foot loose and fancy free. Because if we don't plan then we
have nothing to aim for, right? So planning is important what
what I'm really asking people to think more deeply about is
whether aiming for the bullseye is really the way to create the
behavior change that most consistently supports your
greater eating and exercise balls.
I got you that makes sense, I feel like sustainability is of
Paramount importance, whether it's with regard to your
nutrition, your training, your business relationships, like
whatever really is, that's all going to be hinged.
On one's ability to sustain that over time, and have that
compounding impact towards Go. I feel like a lot of people,
they, they have like this Bullseye approach, but then if
they derail from that, even the slightest, it causes them to
just totally go off the rails. And, like, using food as an
example. If somebody doesn't hit their
intake on the nose, then it's like they've viewed it as a
total loss and then they'll eat everything in sight and just do
a lot more damage than is necessary.
Whereas people that are more flexible.
Isabel using that word. They they don't view it as a
complete loss, they just trying to get right back on track.
I could see that being the case. I feel like everybody's there's
like a dichotomy that exists between yes, hitting the
everything perfectly and doing whatever is most sustainable for
that individual. But everyone's going to have
everyone's going to figure out what that were that point lies
on their own unique Spectrum, in time, I guess, right?
Wow. So, it would be ideal.
Really fast what happened? But your example of you know not
hitting the bullseye and then feeling like a failure and
crashing and burning. Unfortunately, I mean I use the
word dogma early earlier for a really specific reason.
I you know, I didn't start using that word document until I was
writing the book because um, you know, I've been working with
people for decades and you know, I besides clients that I maybe
were work with, you know, friends.
And family, and you see how people cycle in and cycle out
and stop and start and stop and start but don't sustain.
And the narratives, the stories that you hear people tell about
what went wrong and why they failed.
It's the same thing, they didn't hit the bullseye and you know,
and so it's become a dog mod that gets people to just see
black and white and success and fail.
And so in in in the new story of behavior change that You know,
that that I think we need and that I'm trying to tell is we've
got a we've got a breakdown that Dogma that for most people is
just a lose-lose. Now again, it works for some
people that do the, hit the bullseye, my husband hits a
bull's-eye, like it works for him, and that's great.
And maybe it works for you too, but the research is suggesting,
maybe for your average Joe person or average Jane that
isn't going to work. And so we want to create a new
New world with behavior change. If you will, where people do
figure this out. But I will if I if I were you
know, get if you said to me Michelle I want you to make a
bat. Do you think most people are
going to fall on that kind of rigid part of the spectrum and
be successful with that or that most people are going to succeed
on the more flexible content is part of the Continuum?
And, you know, I would not hesitate to put most people
needing the more flexible approach. and in the end it's
for well, I think it's human nature because if we step out
away from this conversation that we're talking about eating and
exercise and working out, and fitness, if we step outside of
this and we think about every other aspect of Our Lives
parenting and partnering and, you know, when our dentist calls
us the day before and says the day, before an appointment, it
says, hey, I can't make the appointment I need to reschedule
Schedule. We don't fire our dentist,
right? Or if our friend, or if we can't
meet a friend at a plan time or we had planned to like, take a,
you know, whatever have a drink for two hours and laugh and have
fun, what are, you know, whatever we plan to do.
And if we can only make it for 30 minutes, our friend doesn't
dump us. Like in all these other areas of
Our Lives, we flex intuitively, and innately and organically.
But when it comes to eating and exercise, we don't bring the
same. Ability and Grace.
Yeah, I think I've always said that it's better.
I mean you just want to have progress, you know, over time
and I feel like I've always said that it's much much better to be
90% 100% of time than to be a hundred percent 10 percent of
the time. Because, you know, like if
you're looking at something that is sustainable like that and
exercise, like I can go really freaking hard in the gym and I
can nail my macros, you know perfectly, but that done every
single day. A of my life and existence would
get rather monotonous and drab. I wouldn't want that.
And then I would likely burn out.
And I feel like a lot of people, I mean, 100% is not sustainable
for anybody, like, 100% with anything is not much time before
anybody. However, there are times in
life, where you need to be, you know, at Peak Performance but
it's a finite period of time. Like nobody would be able to
sustain a hundred percent maximum output indefinitely Or
else they would literally die. But I Like figuring out what at
what point you can continue to see Progressive progress and
growth day after day after day for the long-term.
Like that's when you kind of know you're in this sweet spot,
this Flow State so to speak. Well, I mean what you're
suggesting speaks to performance goals, which is a really
different type of aspiration, been living a life, maybe that's
full of energy and well-being, right?
So if someone has Formance calls.
Then you do have a specific Northstar that's guiding your
action. So I was speaking at the
University of Texas about this idea.
I don't know, a couple months ago and one a student-athlete
raises hands and said, you know, about this very conversation and
he said, you know, if I didn't train hard, if I decided not to
go to, you know, not to run and in between races that I, you
know, then I'd probably get kicked off the team.
And I wouldn't do well. And so there's a difference and
the answer is of course so if you're an athlete or you're
someone who is so focused on performing and gaining in a
certain way than you do have to achieve certain thresholds.
Right? But I think the problem is that
that type of mindset has Has been has been what the normative
belief has that. This is what we should all be
working toward and with the number of roles and
responsibilities that most people joggle unless you are
deeply committed like someone like you to, or again, you know,
to really continuously improving at a certain level that type of
belief system and Which is people are just going to keep
trying and falling off, right? Because it isn't going to fit
into their lives. So I mean that's a key point is
what do you what are you trying to do?
And I think, as a society we've been over focused on achieving a
certain level of fitness and and using these things to lose
weight, which you know, research shows generally doesn't work,
right? What do you think?
The goal like the main goal? Just keeping with the, you know,
Enos nutrition aspect things. At what do you think the main
goal of you know the general population Society is like
they're not the general Society is not trying to step on station
be a competitive bodybuilder like myself, but I would say
that the general population wants to be the best version of
themselves, right? I think currently people's
primary goal for changing their eating as losing weight and that
is, that's a problem because well, for we know that first of
all exercise is, is not very good at helping people lose
weight. It's helpful at helping people
maintain weight. But if we shift into eating,
Losing weight is is intertwined with so many negative
experiences like like internalized weight ISM and
stigma that it contaminates people's desire and motivation
for eating and healthier and better ways.
So I think most people do change their eating for weight and it
actually sets most people up to rebel against it and not follow
through. Do not sustain.
I definitely think there is a massive percent of the
population that is just under this chronically restrictive
mindset, which I think is very unhealthy, you know, people just
dieting at all times. Not really having any jian-yang
relationship with food, give themselves time and a healthy
Surplus, give them some self time and healthy deficit.
Like a lot of people just chronically under eating, which
is not going to bode. Well from from a metabolic
standpoint, from a hormonal standpoint from a relationship
with food standpoint, as a lot of negatives that come with just
chronically under eating. Do you feel like people are
confused at times about what the north star of health is because,
as of late, you seen a lot of people try and switch gears and
probably gonna ruffle some feathers here about kind of
Sensational, izing being overweight, and that being
presented as a, you know, good thing.
Like, you don't have to be, you know, at a certain The way to be
healthy but it's almost gone to the extreme of advocating.
People be really overweight. Do you think that has kind of
led to the confusion of many people's North Star?
I don't know that has led to the confusion of Nova, Northstar.
I think the and I don't know that there's a confusion of the
North's time, and I think the North Star unfortunately, has
been and continues to be focusing on weight.
Because I think our society has really indoctrinated people to
just continuously be in the cycle, the Vicious Cycle of
failure when it comes to this, I, you know, I think what we
need You to do regardless of whether someone is quote-unquote
carrying extra weight or not or overweight or, you know,
whatever category, you know, they may fall into, you know,
it's counterintuitive, but I think when we start to help
people learn to associate their food choices with how they feel,
and the Neuroscience supports that, this is the way to change
people's relationship with eating and to help.
Reduce Cravings. So, you know, when I work with
clients and when I speak to organizations, I suggest that we
basically, you know, Rebrand health is well-being.
We shift away from Biometrics like weight from external ways
of measurement and we start to use our internal systems to help
guide us. And, and again, that is what the
Neuroscience suggest. I don't know if, you know,
Justin Brewers workout But he started out with addiction and
smoking cessation. He's a neuroscientist and he's
moved into eating and craving and the same principles that he
used for smoking cessation. Such that when you help people
become without judgment more aware, more mindful of their
Cravings, counter-intuitively it actually helps them better
resist, the Cravings rather than Than succumb to them and that
you know, has has implications for long-term effects.
So, I think what we want to do is actually shift away from
weight, regardless of whether people, you know, have
health-related issues or her want to lose weight because, you
know, Decades of experience and research would suggest that
tying are eating changes in eating two and a weight loss
aspiration or North Star. Is not going to is not going to
help us achieve sustainability. It's does that?
Does that make sense at all to you?
Yeah, I can certainly get behind the message of, you know, really
focusing on people's internal signals and honestly just
getting people more self-aware about how they feel and wise, go
that way because I feel like, I mean, I see this with my clients
all the time especially when we're doing something like
increasing calories like in a reverse that many people just
simply focus and fixate on the scale, but they pay no mind to
How much better? They feel their recoveries
improve. Their Sleep Quality has improved
their libidos and prove their energies and provide all of
these are metrics that are worthwhile.
And I feel like those are often times just placed on the back,
but are never really given the attention they deserve.
Why do you think I'm kind of bouncing all over the place
here? So, please forgive me.
But why do you think we are in somewhat of an obesity crisis?
Now, do you think this is the, the main thing is stemming from
a psychological response to Mainstream messaging and that's
kind of derailed the general population.
Or what do you think? The Catalyst for that has been
oh my gosh. Wow, I think the quantity of
food that we have available to us is really, really relevant.
You know, it's not, there's not a single answer, it's a very
complicated thing. But, you know, if you go to the
grocery store, I have a very healthy relationship with food,
you know, and I, you know, maintain my weight just
intuitively. Ali, but if I'm in a situation
like, if I'm someplace or we have a party, we have a lot of
leftover potato chips and Cheetos, I'm just, you know,
it's right in front of me. I'm going to just go to town
because it's very hard to resist.
So I think the quantity, the options.
It's crazy. So I think that's a big part of
it. The other part of it is, Is that
we've been taught that we shouldn't have this quantity and
that creates a rebellion. It's, you know, there's this
Theory called reactance theory that says that human beings are
motivated to rebel against, or to liberate themselves from the
things that are taking away their freedom, right?
So if we should exercise instead of want to do it, then we don't
want to do and if we can't have that then of course we're going
to have it. It's like we have this inner
toddler inside of us. It says, you can't tell me what
to do, like that's what the research shows that, you know,
and it's like a human nature crashing.
So it's a very complex but I think if we didn't have the
quantity of food available and you know, then there's you know
what food is cheaper, right? You know, if you buy Whole
Foods, I mean, I find any way when I go grocery shopping and I
really do prefer to eat whole Foods that my grocery bill is
much higher. If I buy, you have having to
have a big shopping that's full of that type of food than, you
know, and other type of food. So it's very complicated.
No, I agree. I think the, the quantity of
consumption is definitely grown over the years.
I feel like people people just so out of touch with their body
and why they're butterflies the way it does.
It's honestly mind-boggling and think about the portion sizes,
when you go Restaurant. It's huge.
I mean, just huge when you go I remember when I first live in
Spain in the 80s and the portion sizes in a restaurant, we're so
different. Now that may have changed, you
know, I don't I it's been a few years since I've been back and I
haven't, you know, looked at how much they're serving people or
whether it's a touristy spot or not, but you know, we're just
handed so much more on a plate than we actually.
And then we're then we get our bodies used to eating more than
we probably actually need. So it is so there's that too.
Yeah, I think overconsumption of nutritional avoid Foods is
definitely contributing factor because if you're not getting
the nutrition you need you're going to have to consume more of
it. So you're basically getting all
these empty calories and I think people probably have, I mean,
there's been some arguments counter to this but I feel like
on average people's activity is probably less now than it was
you know, 50 100 years ago, just fewer people doing Manual.
Labor lot more sitting in front of a computer, a lot less
movement throughout the day. I feel that's true but I believe
there's been research with hunters and gatherers around the
world that suggests. It's very, very
counter-intuitively that the movement has very little to do
with actually the weight. So our society has certainly
changed and we've become much more sedentary.
Hurry. But you know, this is this is
not my area of research, but I'm pretty sure the the, the latest
research on using hunters and gatherers with accelerometers
shows that the amount of movement isn't going to
influence our weight too much. Yeah, I don't necessarily think
that it moves the needle on the weight that much, but the
composition of that weight. Probably is changed drastically
for instance, like if someone maintains the same weight but
has No, a higher percentage of lean muscle tissue.
They're going to be able to tolerate a higher caloric load
than if they were, you know, had a much higher body fat,
percentage, relative to lean mass.
I think that's probably changed but I don't think they at the
end of the day, the weight has been so much affected by
movement, if that makes sense. You sure.
And that's not really, you know, I don't know to as much about
that as you do, probably. So, I don't know that I can add
to the to that comment, too much.
Let me ask you this. You mentioned earlier.
How? Human nature is such that when
people feel deprived or depleted or disallowed of something, they
crave it that much more in my space like with with my
demographic in the keto space, you know, a lot of people are
totally eliminating carbohydrates as a food group
and they're finding success with that so that it's kind of begs.
The question of, you know, are you a moderator or are you an
Eliminator kind of similar to how you framed it earlier with
people being habit, errs or naturally?
Unhappy bitters, what's your take on the The mud are the
moderator versus Eliminator. So is that just a another token
of Bio individuality there? I, you know, I I would say it is
but I would also say, you know, and I don't know the answer this
because I haven't worked a lot with Peter people following the
keto, although I do recall having dinner a couple years ago
with a friend of mine who had been following the keto and he
just raved about how he felt. And, you know, I wonder if the
people who succeed following the ketone, Diet again, there are
people who are II, don't know if it's, you know, just performance
goal oriented or whether it's, you know, to get healthier in a
certain way. But I would, if I were going to
bat about why the people who are following it, who are sticking
with it, I would bet it's because they know that they feel
better. When they follow that way of
eating, then when they don't, and they've learned the
difference that would, that's what I would assume.
But you since you work with people, why don't Tell me what
you found. No, I agree with that.
For sure. I feel like people that
experienced a tremendous amount of success with it.
Like that's been the case for me, at least for sure.
Like that draws me much more so than the temporary high that I
would get from having a more mixed diet and been able to
moderate things better as opposed to just simply
eliminating the things that I know don't really contribute to
My overall health and betterment and I feel like the end of the
day it kind of bodes. Well for habit-forming anyways,
like if you Have less decisions to make throughout the day.
Like, if you have last decision fatigue, you will have a better
ability to form and stick to habits and sustainable fashion
of the feel like, the more more questions, people are faced with
in the more decisions people have to make, that's has a
directly correlated effect on one's willpower and resolve to
stick to good habits. I think I think you're right.
I think there is an element for the people.
This works for her. At having to make fewer
decisions, simplifies things. But if you are someone
potentially with less in a self control all, and there is some
research to suggest that, you know, people who are more
successful forming automatic habits, they might innately be
more disciplined. So in that case, that would
work, but if you're not one of those people, then learning how
to eat in a more moderate way or with You know, again flexible
restraint is this research that I've been seeing suggest you
know I think it's it goes back to if someone has been
successful then they need to keep doing what they're doing.
But we do know that the majority of people in society have not
been successful sustaining, you know, changes in eating plans
and increasing their physical activity and so If the majority
of people have not been successful and just keep
cycling, you know, and through Vicious Cycles of failure, then
I think they need to ask themselves.
What, what are the ways in, which what are the strategies
I've been using? What are the beliefs?
I've had about what success looks like and if those beliefs
and those strategies, haven't led me to succeed long-term to
sustain the changes that I really wanted to make.
Then I think it's time to, you know, where people need to say,
okay this I have evidence. Am I going to keep banging my
head against the same wall? Or is it time for me to discover
alternative approaches that I haven't tried before?
And that might be 180 degrees from what I have tried.
I agree. I think this this kind of all
boils down to have that software and it's because it, like I said
earlier, it's amazing to me how people how many people lack
Clarity on, even what works? Well for them, and what doesn't
because they, I think it's, I don't know, but I think it's
because people are so caught up in comparing to others,
especially with the rise of social media and how easy it has
become to compare one's life with others.
The more people do that, the less likely there are to be able
to Simply look in the Year be reflective be introspective and
just simply know what they respond best to.
So on that note what do you think would be a good litmus
test so to speak for people that listen to this?
That may not know what they are naturally, you know, inclined to
do from a habitual habit-forming standpoint or more.
So from an uninhabited, inhabit standpoint.
What, what's a good litmus test for people to figure out what
they are naturally likely to be? Well, that's a great question.
So I guess one thing I don't know if there's one what I would
do like if I were working with a client and that client didn't
have a lot of self-awareness and, you know, we were trying to
figure out how to move forward at the beginning of working
together. I would I would have them make a
list like what? Like, let's really do an audit.
Let's do an audit of, you know, people aren't going to be able
to remember everything but like think about what are five to ten
ways. You've tried to change your
eating programs, Done or exercise, you know what?
So I want them to do an audit and then write it down and then
I would want them to rate, you know, maybe.
Well first, I would want them to assess.
Did that work for you? Did it work while or not?
Well, generally, you know, and how long approximately and then
you know the next question for each of the options would be.
Did you like it? You know, did it feel good to
do? Did it?
Did you feel? Like you were kind of in tune
with who you are as a person and so, you know, that would be a
type of mapping if you will or audit of past strategies, how
they worked, whether people liked it and then that would
guide based on the answers to those questions, it would guide,
okay? Like let's say you had, you
tried things that were pretty, prescriptive and rigid and it
didn't work but you also didn't like Right?
While that would be a hint that maybe you should do something
that's has more variety. In fact, there's a whole program
of research showing that when you add variety to behaviors,
whether it's physical activity or eating that people increase
their intrinsic motivation and I'm sure you know you know you
probably know a lot about intrinsic motivation in the work
you do. And that that's a really
important predictor of, it's a very high-quality stable mode.
Aviation, so that would be how I would start and if people wrote
other things, you know, if there's a mismatch with what
people try and and or or if something they've tried doesn't
work and they don't like it. That is, I wouldn't say it's a
red flag. I would say that's a green flag
that you want to go in the exact opposite direction.
What if somebody tries something that is working, but they don't
like it. Wow. so, if The person in the
past. So we are we are we talking
about currently or in the past currently like somebody like
just continue with the nutrition and you know, exercise
phenomenon here, if somebody's doing something and they're
seeing, you know, tangible progress with it but they don't
like it. Is that something that they
should just try and like a certain amount of time that
people should honestly try to sustain something for, you know,
proper homage to kind of, you know, become And lay a
foundation for is there like is there like a certain amount of
time? People should try things to see
if they learn to like it, or what's your take on that?
That's a great question. Well, there really isn't a
period of time that we know that habit formation happens, right?
So, you know, it, there's kind of, if you could see me, I've
got my two hands up. And on the one hand on the
scale, there's if people are making changes for performance
reasons, and they're seeing those Formance reasons like
that's a compelling that is compelling and meaningful to
someone who's deeply committed to performing on the other hand.
If they don't like it, it depends on which hand the
performance goals or the experience of disliking.
It is ultimately going to win out, you know, if someone cares
deeply about the performance but they don't like it.
I don't have trouble. Justin will keep doing the, I
mean, maybe the performance will, you know, again, just
overcome it and it will help you ultimately achieving in those
ways is just going to become very meaningful to you.
But, you know, when it comes to physical activity research, the
research I know about really pretty clearly shows that it's
how you feel during that predicts whether you stick with,
you know, that predicts physical activity over time, not even
afterwards. It's how you feel during and so,
Given that I, you know, again, if you forced me to place a bet,
I would guess that the disliking was going to win out, but I
don't have any trouble, kind of railing someone to keep doing
something that feels meaningful to them, until they may decide.
I just don't have the energy to push through the dislike anymore
and that is an energy level 2. So you mentioned earlier, you
know, that when you eat a keto diet or another, Type of plan,
or what is it called? A witch.
Like a fasting where you're allowed to eat certain During
certain periods of the day. It reduces your need to think,
right? Which is kind of a mental
relief, but on the flip side, when you have to push yourself
to do something that doesn't feel good, think about the
amount of energy that takes. So what I have seen happen is
people decide they're going to do it for, you know, again, it's
usually tied to weight loss, not weightlifting, because I don't
tend to work with, you know, performance in that way.
Um, so it's tied to wanting to lose weight and they may start
out strong and be committed and see results.
But eventually, you know, their motivation bubble which was so
big and and meaningful when they started out on the path, it
bumps up against something unexpected in life, especially
with an uninhabited, her and it just burst right?
Like you're pushing yourself and your using all your harnessing,
your energy to push through the Like like you're tired at the
end of the day but you're or at lunch, but you're going to do it
because you've got this goal but how, you know, how long can we
do that? And then if you find out that
that work deadlines got moved up by two weeks, holy cow, you know
or your kid comes home and has extra homework to do and they
need a lot of help like all of a sudden you have to put that
energy somewhere else and then that's usually when Things Fall
Apart when people have to push through something Don't like
yeah, I think in order for that to work I mean you have to be
seeing some positive return on investment May.
I'm, I'm probably wired a little bit different like I'm probably
like a little bit of a sofa masochist.
Like I like being miserable like I smile when I'm miserable
because I know that most of the successes that I've personally
seen in life have come from, you know, periods that were
incredibly hard and trying and I grew in those moments.
In so many different ways. So I typically view those
hardships, those adversities as as, you know, the darkness
before the dawn. So just be like that's that's
the that's the catalyzing effect that are.
That's making something good. Come from it.
But I have had so many instances in my life where something very
good came from that. I feel like a lot of people,
oftentimes don't experience that positive Roi because they either
don't do it long enough or they don't do it.
Enough for whatever it is. But if they don't experience
that positive at the end of it all, then it would be incredibly
hard to ever have any motivation to do those hard things because
it just seems like it's all for naught, right?
But, you know, and when you were, when you were started
talking, I it sounded to me like you were talking more about life
challenges and finding meaning in them and you know which we
know that You know, both Dan pink and Susan, Cain's new
books, you know, talk about, you know, regret and appreciating
when things might be difficult and making meaning and that sort
of thing. You know, I think that the
research is pretty clear that growth comes from making meaning
of difficult challenges, but I think that is kind of a big
difficult when I think of, you know, someone trying to Adopt a
healthier lifestyle and it being hard, I view that as more
difficult to find the capital and the meaning in it you know
because I think there's so much mundane wrapped up in it both in
what people are trying to do. And again I think what you were
talking about social media. I think that can easily be an
inspiration for someone but on a suit but on a more superficial
Official level and less meaningful level, and that is
also, if people initiate change using social media and again,
there's nothing wrong with being inspired whatever inspires you
is great, right? Like, I'm not saying there's
anything wrong with being inspired.
The question is, whether that type of inspiration is going to
get you to stop and start and stop and start and feel like
failures continuously or whether it's actually going to say you
know what this is. This is what I've been waiting
for. I'm ready to take better care of
myself, right? I mean, that's what I'm, that's
the kind of motivation that my goal is with a coaching client,
is I want to help them discover a really compelling date on a
daily basis. A really deeply relevant
compelling, why? For the choices that they've
decided they want to make? Yeah, I think I think that is
very much so the key Like you have to have a compelling
enough, why or else you just simply not going to be able to
sustain things for the amount of time, necessary to see that
positive Roi feel like you have to know anybody can watch a
movie, or, you know, the social post or something like that and
get fired up in the moment. But if like, you can't connect
the dots to figure out why you're even fired up and how you
could benefit from that in your own life, to the point where
you're wanting to live that out and it Adopt then, I feel like
it's it becomes more of a negative than a positive because
just constantly leaves you in this sense of turmoil, so to
speak. Yeah, that makes sense.
You know, our reasons for doing anything determine have a domino
effect and they influence whether we develop high-quality
motivation, low-quality stable, motivation.
So it is our wise are deeply consequential, and I would
suggest Jazz and I bet you've seen this you know again and
again that there is there in I think in society there's been a
complete under emphasis on the why we've all been focused on
the way, do it this way. Join this program, get this
exercise equipment and not nearly enough has been focused
on why, why are we really doing this?
Why do we really care about overhauling this or that?
Or Eating this or that because that are wise to determine what
comp what follows and whether it's sustainable or not.
So I think we need to open up a whole new conversation at a very
wide scale about our wise. I agree.
I agree out of curiosity. What does a typical day-to-day
look like for you if you're not a, you know, routine oriented
like habitual person? Innately.
What does a typical day look like for you?
Is that, is that different on the day-to-day, or is there much
structure there? That's a great question.
And I have to, you know, let me think about that.
Well, you know, I think there's a self-care higher gear, I
proposed that we should create a self-care hierarchy and where we
know what our foundational self-care behavior is.
So that if we don't do it, our day isn't going to go well, and
for me, that sleep for my husband is exercise and so, So
he'll skimp on sleep, if he works till midnight, he'll still
get up at, you know, 5:00 a.m. to exercise because he needs it
to feel his best but I need to get enough sleep.
So my day, absolutely something that is, you know, routinized is
trying to get the sleep that I need.
I don't always get it and that's just life, right?
You know, I, you know if it's during the school year, I have I
take my The school also you know getting up and I don't have
breakfast until I'm done with that part of it and then I work,
you know, and my my primary physical activity is walking.
I used to run, I love turn but knee problems have prevented me
from maintaining that. So one thing that I do is on a
daily basis, I may not know when I'm going to fit my walk-in, so
that's something that I'm unclear about.
But I have a very strong wife or walking it, you know I like to
walk outside your round because being outside just boost my
mood. There's something expansive
about being able to see this guy walking through neighborhoods
with trees. So in that way but I have the
luxury of you know as a researcher who also does this
other type of work? I am in control of my schedule.
Most people are not right. So That means I want to, I
basically want to own up to having the luxury of being able
to decide when I'm going to take a walk or not.
And you know during the book launch which has been going on
for the last couple months. I've had, you know, a ton of
interviews, my time has really been different.
My daily schedule has been different and I haven't been
able to take my ideal walk on most days.
Notice I said most and not all days.
Right? Because I know that using the
word most has motivational implications versus all.
I can't do all days, right? That gets back to your 100%
situation, so I say on most days but during this season of book
launch, if you will, I haven't been able to do my walk as much
as I would like to do it, but because I know that being
flexible in doing something rather.
Rather than nothing or the what I call the joy Choice, the
perfect and perfect option that lets us do something instead of
nothing. You know, that's what I do.
And a couple weeks ago, I asked my family to take a walk after
dinner and a few steps into the walk, my very astute 14 year old
son, cocked, his head and turned to me and he said, mom is this
walk a joy choice for you which basically meant.
You didn't get your idea. In today.
So this is this is the next best thing.
This is the perfect and perfect option and he was right on the
money. And that's that's what I think
more people need to learn. So that's kind of you know,
hopefully they give you a flavor of that.
Yeah, no totally and I feel like, you know, your your book
launch right now that's kind of like the with with your chapter
in life current. That's kind of like the
performance room. So to speak that you're trying
to optimally could try to get that dialed in, so that's the
area. Oh, that would be getting a lot
of the focus which makes sense. I feel like people have
different Cycles different phase of different chapters in their
life and in those different chapters, you know, priorities
and focuses shift and you kind of have to like I don't know how
to illustrate this, but I've got this concept that I'm working
on, in which case, most of the things that are important to me
in my life, can be placed into five primary pillars, so to
speak, you know, I'm not focusing 100% of my time.
Fit on all five of those pillars simultaneously, but there's
certain chapters of my life in which one pillar gets more
attention than the other. But the the idea is that they
all share a symbiotic relationship and they're all
growing. They're all benefiting from one
another. In the focus, that I'm placing
on one another, but I can't be maximum output on all five of
those at all times. There's there's times where one
gets more attention than others and I feel like that's that Bose
itself to sustainability. Yes, I think I think Right, and
you're absolutely right. And if I were so if I were kind
of an someone who's been in the Vicious Cycle of failure and
I've been doing following some eating plan and exercise, and I
was feeling great. And then the book launch
happened and I just couldn't do what I had been doing.
What typically happens is, someone would deem it as a
failure, right? I failed.
I can't keep going, but notice how I said, it's a season.
Now, I'm in this book, launch season, and I'm not feeling like
a failure. I mean, I wish I could take
longer walks, but right now, like, you emphasized.
The book is the priority right now, but it's not going to be
forever. I mean, I would be in trouble
for with myself care. I would be in trouble with my
family, you know, if I maintained the emphasis that I
have been on my new book, The Joy Choice, then I would be
then. Then that would be overshadowing
these other really important things that I really do need and
care about. So I do the but it gets back to
self-awareness, right? It sounds like what you're
creating is also something that someone has to be really aware
of is, when do you switch, right?
One is, when do you need to switch to this emphasis?
And I think inherent what you're talking about, is an
appreciation for the need to be flexible to be flexible and to I
know that it's certain times of the year or in certain times of
life, you know, think about how different life is when someone
has a child or when they move in with someone or when they go
back to school full-time. I mean, or if they develop a
chronic illness or if their partner, they become as a
caregiver. I mean, all of these Seasons,
necessitate change in some way, and that's life right here,
totally, totally. This may seem I'm like a left
field question but what grade has been 14 year-old put you in
what grade? Yeah, what is what's great?
Is your son in. Um so he's going to start ninth
grade, that's great. Okay, so I would imagine I don't
I'm not sure what kind of school is in.
But do you have any thoughts or opinions towards the way school
is structured for children? Like tomorrow's leaders.
I feel like they're the school system that we are.
Glee familiar with is an incredibly rigid structured
system, in which class has started.
A certain time, you've got a very certain curriculum, it
doesn't seem to bode well to people's innate, natural gifts
versus those. That they have to work more on.
Do you have much of an opinion on that at all?
You know, I I was raised in open school if you will where, you
know, I guess not that I guess it's not surprised.
It's just surprising surprising that.
I'm in this, the field and doing the work that I'm doing, which
allowed me to kind of figure out what my interests were and
strengths and stuff like that. So I do I do think, I mean, I'm
certainly not an educated researcher about education in
this way, but as a parent and just a consumer of information,
I know there's that really popular too.
Talk that talks about how education is, you know, the
system is, you know, killing learning and creativity and
Innovation. And I do think it's a shame that
things are as scripted as they are.
Because, you know, but it's such a systemic, big picture problem.
You know, I don't necessarily have an answer.
I we We we were fortunate that we could have our son go to a
school that did not. That was not like that because
we felt it would enable him to better tap into motivation for
Learning and that sort of thing. What do you have?
It sounds like you have a strong opinion about that.
No, I'm honestly just very open to everybody stands on this
because we just had a kid, some trying to figure out, you know,
I went through the standard Public School.
And it was good for me for sure. Like I mean, but I think that
that system that I went through, was it?
What led to the success that I've seen is just kind of like,
very status quo and I feel like any time you have an opportunity
to just really double down on kids, interests and strengths
and desires. I feel like that's, that's
always going to, you know, pay itself in dividends.
So I'm just curious for people that have parent special people
that are Wanting to focus on their strengths.
Like you've talked about, you know, what your stance was on
all that because I like I'm honestly just it's a selfish
question. I'm just trying to learn myself
know and I would do the same thing.
I'm very curious. You know, one thing I didn't
know about was that I know some people talk about boys
development being behind girls and I have a couple of friends
who didn't start their kids in kindergarten when they're boys
were fired. They wait until they're six and
I, you know, In retrospect, I think that's probably a great
idea. You know, everyone's different,
right? Like some kids might be
insatiable and ready to start school, but that's the kind of
thing that I didn't know about when I first started.
So, you know, I think that's kind of an interesting thought
and I've also heard people talk about the fact that schools and
you know the sitting down all the time that girls do that
better than boys, you know. And I don't know if that's true
so I don't want to propagate Gate any false, you know,
truisms. I've just heard that from
friends. And so, you know, it's
interesting to consider whether certain systems sat may be girls
or boys better up for success. I don't know if this has been so
I'm sure it's been studied. I don't know what the answer is
but you know, or does it make sense to start school later, you
know, than earlier? You know.
So I think you're asking the right questions for sure.
Yeah, I think two things, two very tangible things that I want
to make sure that I'm able to do.
As a parent is simply raise my kids on land like have property
that they can have room to, you know, play and grow and learn
and just develop skill sets that aren't really easily acquired
living in the city. That's that's one thing that
really shaped my development, I think.
So I want to be able to that same thing for my kids and then
also just simply taking them traveling like exposing them to
different. Aunt, different communities,
different people, different thought groups.
Different, just different environments.
I feel like that is a very tangible thing.
That makes a tremendous impact on their developing brains.
Totally I think you're totally right.
Awesome. Awesome.
Well I am very excited about all of you working on.
I'm eager to learn more. What is the name of your book
again? The Joyce, The Joy Choice.
All right? And where do people go to find
out more about that and just you in general.
Sure. My website which is I named
Michelle Seger SE G AR.com. Do you have a social profiles as
well? You know, I'm on Twitter at
Michelle Seeger and Linkedin but that those are the two platforms
that I'm focused on awesome. I will definitely link out to
the book and the website. Make it easy for people to find
you and just keep doing what you're doing.
I think you know, diving into what makes Unique Individuals
tick, what contributes to their success in a sustainable.
Able fashion is of Paramount importance.
So I think you're doing great work here.
Well, thank you. And I thought you asked really
astute questions. I really enjoyed speaking with
you, thank you so much. Thank you very much, Michelle,
not keep in touch, and we'll talk soon.
All right, sounds good. Bye.