Well hello ladies and gents, Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com.
Today I've got special guest Robert Johnson on the line and
we dive deep into the wonderful world of mushrooms.
He has been an avid mushroom aficionado since he was a
teenager. He's grown his own mushrooms.
He started several companies around the cannabis industry,
but also now mushrooms. Micro Boost is the name of his
company and we just dive deeper into mushrooms as a nootropic.
The different strains of mushrooms that we're probably
familiar with, Lion's mane, Chaga Rishi, things of that
nature. But then also some of the psycho
psychedelic effects of mushrooms and how there could be use case
scenarios there. So very interesting
conversation. I don't know that much about
mushrooms at all so I was excited to dive deeper and learn
more and I've got no doubt that you will take something from
this conversation. So without for the delay, sit
back, relax, enjoy the podcast with Robert Johnson
and we are live. How are you, Robert Johnson?
Doing great. Thanks a lot for having me on
the show. Hey man, I'm excited to be
chatting with you. So you are a mushroom
aficionado. And it's it's funny that we got
this podcast going, because one of my employees is big into
growing mushrooms, is his apartment looks like a
laboratory right now. He's got grow tense, he's got
multiple different strains cooking as we speak.
So I'm excited to learn more about the whole mushroom
industry. Yeah, yeah, we're seeing more
and more of that everywhere. Mushrooms are are easy to grow
and and they bring a lot of benefits. 100% man.
Well, what? What gets you interested in
mushrooms in the 1st place? Like, was that something that
you've always had an interest for?
Was it like an ailment that you were suffering from and that led
to the mushrooms or have have that unfold?
Well, I started a supplement manufacturing company in 2019
and part of my job is working with all sorts of different
brands and people approached me wanting to make different
formulas or they have, you know, key ingredients in mind.
And one thing that just kept coming up over and over again
was lion's mane mushrooms. And so as as part of my my
consulting with these people, I did a lot of research into
lion's mane mushrooms, how they work, what's beneficial about
them, but also the the proper amounts to put into product to
really make them therapeutic and and work well.
And what I found with a lot of the people that I was consulting
with was they they had interest in in Lion's Mane and its
properties, but more from like a marketing standpoint than
actually putting together a product that was really going to
be beneficial to people. And I've seen this a lot and not
just not just people making mushroom products, but
supplements in general. And supplements you know
sometimes get a bad reputation not because of this a lot of a
lot of products on the market just are are are more marketing
and you know placebo at best or or misleading the customer at
worst. And so as as I made these
products and help people make products that I thought were not
as good as they could be, it really motivated me to to make
like the best possible thing that we could.
I think that's key man. Like, I don't take a whole lot
of supplementation, but I always get frustrated when I look into
supplements and many companies are just skating below that
effective dose required to have any benefit from it, just so
they can slap the ingredient on the label and kind of overly
hype the the formulation. But often times they're hiding
behind some proprietary blend, they're putting a bunch of a
filler ingredients in there. You're not getting enough of
what you need and getting too much of what you don't need, and
it's just a kind of a shady marking in a lot of ways.
Yeah. And it it doesn't even really
make sense to me from a business perspective because acquiring
new customers, making them aware of your brand and getting them
to try it is such a time consuming and and financially
costly endeavor. And so you know once you once
you have them, once you got them to try the product, you know
that's the the biggest challenge.
And so making something that they're going to realize is
really working for them and and have them be a customer for
life, I think you you got to make a quality product for it.
So I just don't understand the the mentality.
I guess it's very short term that, you know, you're just
trying to get over on people. I agree.
So when it comes to mushrooms,
and like nootropics in general, I feel like nootropics as a a
genre of supplementation has definitely gained a lot of
popularity in the past several years.
But a lot of people are using mushrooms as a predominant
nootropic, particularly lion's mane.
Can you kind of just peel the curtain back on what a nootropic
is, where mushrooms fit into the fold of nootropics, and just
what some of the popular use case scenarios would be?
Yeah, Nootropics are generally defined as like cognitive
enhancing products, right. And I think there's a a big
reason for the demand for these was partially due to the
pandemic and us all working from home and trying to find ways to
stay productive, stay efficient, stay motivated, focused and and
then also the the growing age or the rising age of the baby
boomer population. And I think that so many of the
the baby boomer generation has seen parents with cognitive,
neurodegenerative, cognitive issues like Alzheimer's and
dementia and it's such a sad thing to see that.
And I think people want to avoid that fate themselves.
And now you know, not just the the baby boomer generation, but
all of us are trying to, you know, be the best versions of
ourselves and and stay stay focused, stay sharp.
And so I think that's a big reason why the the popularity of
nootropics has really spiked. And then Lion's Mane in
particular is probably the most effective but nootropic that
that we work with because it actually works in your brain to
develop new brain cells. It's a term called a
neurogenesis and then also new neural connections which is a
term called neuroplasticity. And so yeah, the ability to
recall words better, have a better memory, stayed more more
focused and have energy that's not just from something like
caffeine, which is, you know, really spikes your your energy
levels, but then also comes with a crash later on in the
afternoon. Yeah, I feel like swamp an
ounce. Excessive coffee consumption or
certainly energy drinks for something a little more down to
earth, like some mushroom blends, would make a lot of
sense for a lot of people. Because I feel like many people
way overdue the caffeine. I was guilty of that myself and
then I swapped over to, you know, a blend that uses Lion's,
Mane, L Theanine, things of that nature, and I I get the same
mental acuity, but without the crash afterwards.
Yeah, and mushroom coffee is the the most popular form factor
right now for for mushroom supplements.
And it makes sense. You know coffee is the most
widely used drug on the planet. But but getting people to to
switch that really strong habit is is something that requires I
think not only a a quality product but something that that
tastes really good too you know. So I I think coffee, you know
it's probably an acquired taste for most.
I don't think like most 5 year olds try coffee and and want to
have it every day but but you know breaking any habit is a is
a challenging 1. And so that's one thing that
we've really given a lot of thought to and and in our
product formulation and our marketing and and so far it's
been, it's been a fun ride. I love origin stories, man.
I've always been curious about how some of these mushrooms come
to prominence and how people figure out where they can be
efficacious. I mean, people just sitting
around eating mushrooms and find out that some will kill you,
some will make you see things and some will make you smarter.
Like, how does that work? How does origin story of
Mushrooms being so effective in certain scenarios come to be?
I've definitely seen that meme before, right?
You know how how did we originally figure out oh this
mushroom is going to kill you, this mushroom is going to be
good for your your brain health or this mushroom is going to
make you see an alternate universe for 6 to 8 hours.
I'm not sure you know how that how that all started but but for
5000 plus years you know the Chinese have been using
mushrooms in in Chinese medicine there's even a famous Iceman
Otzi. The Iceman was this Neanderthal
that was discovered preserved, his body preserved in in ice.
And he has a little satchel on him that had a medicinal
mushrooms that archaeologists surmise were used as like an
antibiotic and you know, for treating other medicinal issues
that he might have had, you know, in the in the harsh
wilderness some 5000 years ago. Very cool, very cool.
Let's just talk about different strains of mushrooms in general.
Man, this is something that I'm not very well versed in, but
most people know of a handful of mushrooms.
They've probably heard of lion's mane.
They've probably heard of chaga, Rishi or portobellos or stuff
like that. But what?
What are different mushrooms that you typically use on a
regular basis, and what do you use them for?
Right, Yeah. So there's the three categories
of mushrooms. You got your your edible of
pizza toppings like your your portobellos, your crimini
mushrooms. And you have the psychedelic
mushrooms, which come in a variety of strains.
But the functional or medicinal or adaptogenic mushrooms that we
work with at Microboost include that Lion's mane which we've
talked about is is good for your brain.
To summarize it in a word like Cordyceps, your listeners might
really appreciate is as a natural energy booster and
athletes use it as a pre workout.
It's really good for the respiratory system.
You can get more oxygen into your lungs.
And one of my favorite anecdotes about Cordyceps came from
Chinese women's track Olympic team in the 90s.
And they broke so many records, won so many medals that the
Olympic Committee drug tested all of them.
They they passed all their drug tests.
You know, they came back clean and their their track coach
credited Cordyceps mushrooms for their increased performance and
you know, record-breaking running.
So that's that's one we combined Lion's Mane and Cordyceps
together in a product from Microboost called Brain, which
is really my entrepreneur fuel. You know, it keeps my, my mind
sharp and also the energy to, you know, work a 10/12 hour day.
And then the other mushrooms that we work with are Chaga,
Rishi and Turkey Tail and all of them, you know in general
besides the brain health affect your immunity and our
anti-inflammatory which is a source of most disease and
issues in the body And then besides the brain for mood
regulation, mushrooms really regulate our gut microbiome.
And I think besides what's what's happening between our
ears, what's going on in our gut can really affect our mood.
Our our outlook are just general attitude.
And so those are what mushrooms, you know, to really summarize,
are are regulating the most. And what is the effective dose
from a a performance standpoint on those mushrooms?
Like, is it probably going to some degree be totally
independent on the individual, but generally speaking, what is
an effective dose for that as a supplement?
Right. Yeah, that is a key, key answer
right in the the beginning of my desire to make the best possible
mushroom product. So depending on who you ask,
it's between 803,000 milligrams of functional mushrooms as a as
a daily serving. So our our mushroom coffee has
the 3000 milligrams per serving. We make vegan soft gels that are
1500 milligrams each. So you can take, you know, 3000
with with A2 pill serving. But but yeah, that is, that's
what's key. And that's a big difference
between Microboost. There's other good quality
mushroom products out there, but then there are a lot of them
that are real filler. And then a real key difference
too between between Microboost and a lot of products out there
is is is some terminology, right.
So when you're growing mushrooms commercially, you grow them on a
starchy substrate. You know your your employee, if
you've seen his his home grow I'm sure has these substrate
blocks and they're typically made out of oats or rice or
corn, some starchy medium that you inoculate with the liquid
culture or the spores of the strain of mushroom that you're
looking to grow. The mycelium or the root system
of the mushroom grow throughout the substrate and then the the
fruiting body or the, you know, the stem and the cap that we're
all used to the the mushroom comes out of this substrate.
So with Microboost, we harvest that mushroom and make a further
concentration of it to put, you know, a significant amount of of
beneficial properties into a small dose or a small form
factor like a cup of coffee or a soft gel.
But what I found a lot of these mushroom companies do is they'll
buy the myceliated oats from these mushroom farmers.
And the mushroom farmers are using the fruiting body at stem
and cap for selling at a farmer's market or putting into
a high end product like Microboost.
But a lot of mushroom companies market this myceliated oats as a
mushroom product, and the difference is you're just
getting a ton of filler. It might be the best oats or
corn or rice on the planet, but if you're paying, you know, top
dollar for a mushroom supplement, you're getting, you
know what the dirt that it was grown in for the most part.
And there are benefits to mycelium, but a lot of studies
will show that the fruiting bodies actually have
significantly more of the the beneficial properties of the
mushroom. And so there's actually a
petition to the FDA right now from from companies like mine
that are asking the FDA that companies that are using
mycelium not be allowed to market the product as mushrooms,
call it mushrooms or even put, you know, any sort of mushroom
imagery on the packaging because it's misleading to customers.
You know, it's like selling the roots of an apple tree and
calling it an apple or or worse the dirt that the apple tree was
grown in. And when, you know, when I was
first realizing this and and I'm wondering you know, what is the
the difference between this myceliated oak product versus
the fruiting body product. I assumed maybe it's you know, a
12:50 difference, but actually it's more like 500 to 1.
So that's that's it causes a couple of key things for me.
One I really want mushrooms to be an industry that doesn't go
the way of other supplements like CBDI worked in in CBD for
many years and and still do. And I think because people made
were rushed to make so many products, made a lot of
outstanding claims about them that that people would try them
and you know their their reality didn't match their their
expectation. And so they kind of just rule
out CBD as something that would be that works for them.
And I don't want to see that happen with mushrooms because as
much as I think CBD and cannabis are really powerful, I think
mushrooms are even more so. And so that's a that's a main
thing. And then also just from a, you
know, a marketing perspective on our own, the challenge is, you
know, if you're next to a product that's made with
myceliated oats, which are significantly cheaper to
produce. You know, how do you explain to
a customer that we have more mushrooms in a single pill than
in a a bottle of, you know, 300 capsules that are are primarily
the, the substrate that the mushrooms were grown on?
Yeah. And he was telling me about that
too. I didn't.
I had no idea that was the case. But they're making it with the
substrate like you're saying. And then I guess so many of
these companies are just using that as the predominant thing.
And as it sits currently, there's no differentiation in
the labeling requirements whatsoever, like if it's
marketed as a mushroom anatropic or supplementation of any form,
like there's no differentiating factor at all.
Yeah. It's really up to the brand and
some brands will disclose in the, in the fine print on the in
the ingredients on the back that it's made with my celiated oats.
But there's no requirement to do that.
And so therefore a lot of companies don't you know and and
even some that are that are using fruiting bodies won't say
how much is in it as well. So I'm always about like
transparency and and you know people that I think are the the
ideal customer for this are the people that are really want to
know more and and asking these sort of questions and so that's
that's what we aim to do is is educate you know not only
through our brand but but I write a lot about mushrooms and
and speak at conferences about them and and like I said I want
I want micro boost to succeed but more important I just want
the industry of mushrooms to really succeed because I think
they could help so many people totally.
Man, So I'd love for you to because like I went over to my
employees house here and he kind of showed me the workflow, but
it's everywhere. So like he just bought a place
to start making this in a more organized fashion.
So I'm super excited for him because he's really passionate
about it. But for the listener's sake, can
you kind of walk us through the start to finish process of what
it takes to get the the fruiting spore and get the the culture,
get the fermentation, like get the whole thing from start to
finish? Because it's really interesting
and I just want more clarity on what that entire process looks
like. Yeah, you know I I first tried
to grow mushrooms in my closet when I was 16 and I quickly
learned that a sterile environment is is key.
It's crucial for for mushrooms because you know you're growing
a fungus and and bacteria and contamination are your your main
enemies. And it turns out a 16 year old
boy is not the boys room is not the most sterile environment.
So that's that's really crucial and so sterilizing not only you
know the air and and everything that's around where you're
growing but the the substrate as well you know is either
pasteurized or or sterilized using that big pressure cooker.
From there it's inoculated with the the liquid culture or the
spore and then it takes a a week to two weeks for the mycelium to
populate and grow throughout that that substrate.
And a few weeks after that you start to see the mushrooms come
up and then that you know mushrooms are are typically
dried to preserve them. And the majority of the weight
is water. So if you have, you know, 100
grams of of wet mushrooms, by the time you you dry it down,
you're down to, you know, maybe 10 grams.
But then once they're dried, they'll maintain their their
potency as long as they're stored in a a cool, dark place.
But yeah, that's that's a quick summary of of how to grow
mushrooms. It's a lot easier and and
cheaper than growing cannabis because you don't need light
right, that you can. You can keep them in the dark,
and as long as you keep them, you know about the temperature
that that humans like about 70 to 75°.
They grow quite easily now. Is there any loss of potency in
dehydrating that versus like freeze drying it?
Because like with certain, like meats for instance, you know
you're going to lose some nutritional value when you're
dehydrated versus freeze drying. Is that the case with mushrooms
or no? That's a really good question
and I I don't have experience of freeze drying with to to say one
way or the other. But of anybody that's that's
tested mushrooms, I feel like I'm I'm up there on the list.
For a while I was just so curious about about what people
were doing with with mushrooms and mushroom extracts that for a
couple of years I offered anybody that was extracting
mushrooms or growing some, you know, what they thought were
were really phenomenal mushrooms.
I offered to test it for free mostly just because I wanted to
meet the people that were you know really The Pioneers of the
industry and get to know them and and also increase my catalog
of of understanding you know what's possible in in mushrooms
for example. You know I think a big big
difference between a cannabis and mushrooms is is cannabis
typically in stores you're going to buy flour that has between
1525% active THC. And I think you know non real
mushroom heads are are surprised to learn that psilocybin the the
active ingredient in psychedelic mushrooms is actually like less
than 1% of the the total weight on average Like a .6% is about
the the average amount of of psilocybin in a mushroom.
But because of its, you know, long criminality, there were a
ton of studies on on mushrooms and psychedelics in the 50s and
60s before the the controlled Substance Act.
And now as as they're coming out of the closet and more, more
research and development money is being put into it.
There's a lot more studies going on.
But you know, people are still not sure like where exactly in
that mushroom the psilocybin is. And so consequently making
extractions of it have not evolved to the same place that
we have with with cannabis extraction where you can you
know make close to 99% pure cannabinoid extract.
Mushrooms are are still in their their infancy with the the
science behind that is that. Why?
That excites you more than the cannabis industry.
Yeah. I mean I I like, I like emerging
markets. I find it interesting especially
with the with things like mushrooms that you know have to
reconcile between being this this ancient religious
ceremonial substance that was put here on earth and then
merging with like the capitalism of of the United States and the
world. It's a it's an interesting mash
up and so I find that really fascinating and and you know
with with cannabis we sold our last cannabis company in 2018
right as as legalization for adult use was starting in
California and the industry just really changed really fast and
it became as soon as it became legal it, it went from a lot of
you know seemingly you know mom and pop operations to some some
giant investments which for most people have not gone that great.
And I think the reason for that is, you know, unlike alcohol
prohibition, which was just thirteen years in this country,
cannabis was prohibited for so long, decades, almost 100 years,
that an entire cottage industry was able to really flourish and
and evolve. And you know, you've got
generations of people that have been doing this.
And so when the government finally decides, OK well let's
make this legal and and let's tax the hell out of it.
Well it it makes the the the original growers, I don't know
facing less penalty if caught. So consequently the the prices
go down but but there's no like undoing this whole industry
that's been operating for so long And in California anyways,
it's estimated that still 90 plus percent of cannabis sales
in the state are done outside the the legal system.
And so I think that also presents an interesting
challenge when decriminalizing and and then ultimately
legalizing these things that have been prohibited for so long
as is how do we do it in a way that that doesn't just make the
black market stronger and make all the people that invest in
trying to do it the legal right way just lose their shirts.
And that's that's what we've seen in cannabis.
And and so, yeah, similar to not wanting to see Lion's Man go the
way of CBDI think most psychedelic activists don't want
to see psychedelics go the way that that legal cannabis did.
So it presents an interesting set of challenges.
What is the actually, before I go there and like just kind of
talk to me a little bit about the cannabis industry as a
whole, like is there any reason for it to be prohibited?
I mean, a lot of people, there's such a bad wrap around that and
I don't smoke weed. I don't really, I I don't have
any personal experience or knowledge of this matter
whatsoever. But it seems like there's a a
growing demographic of people that are leveraging that from a
health standpoint to help with anxiety, to help with stress.
I don't, I'm not really a fan of people leaning on anything as a
crutch to help prevent them from, you know, finding that
solution, you know, internally naturally, without any exogenous
introduction of substances. But I I'm not naive to think
that's should be outlawed across the masses.
Like, where where do you stand on all that?
Like, how does that work into our desire for better health as
a species? Well, yeah, I mean, as it was
legalizing, I've been in cannabis since 2008.
We kind of had a similar sort of trajectory.
What's going on with psychedelics now where it's
being approved in Oregon and Colorado for medical use only
and for assisted therapy? You know with cannabis back in
the day we used to roll out, you know the old old granny is with
glaucoma or arthritis and you know these these medical
ailments that cannabis and CBD are really good for and use them
as a as a poster child for why we shouldn't make it legal for
medical use. But ultimately, it's a plant
that was naturally put here. People have been using it for
thousands of years. And if you compare it to alcohol
or tobacco or things that are legal in this country, you know,
there's a lot less risk and involved.
You know, I had a lawyer who I always like to say, you know,
you never heard about a guy smoking a joint and going home
and beating his wife, you know, like, like you hear about
alcohol. So I think adults should have
their own freedom to be able to choose if you know they want to
unwind at the end of the day with cannabis versus versus a
beer. And I think you know from a
medical point of view are just like a happiness and general
well-being. You know, if you, if you smoke a
joint and watch a Bill Murray movie or some cartoons and you
have, then you laugh and and you know, just enjoy yourself that
that's that's really good for your mental health.
You know, we're all so stressed out all the time.
You know, it's good to to be able to unwind, yeah.
I feel like that that makes whole sense to me.
I've heard that the the main adverse effect often times comes
from cannabis. At least when you have
adolescents that don't have fully formed brains.
Chronically using it can kind of contribute to an increased
anxiety over time. I'm not really sure how true
that is. Yeah I've I've definitely heard
about that and and now too with the the potency of products that
are available now too in the ease of use.
And you know I know if if I could if I had a vaporizer and
and 50 milligram THC gummies in high school I probably would not
have gotten as good of grades or or brain developed as well.
But that's all the more reason for for regulation and and
legalization because also in high school I could a lot more
easily obtain cannabis than I could alcohol you know.
But but I think that that the legalization of cannabis I'm
First off like why it was criminalized in the first place
had a lot to do with the with hemp and with textiles and how
it was a competition for for paper and for cotton.
And so you know as we we look back at these these things that
that were that made illegal 100 or 60 years ago you really start
to question why that was. And a lot of the the source or
the the central theme of my writing is about like what are
people's financial benefits of saying what they say.
And and we we see that a lot in in cannabis or or in
psychedelics for example. You know if if your business is
psychedelic assisted therapy then it's in your best interest
to say well this is the only Safeway that that psychedelics
should be administered and and we should clean up and you know
make sure no one has access to stuff because it could be you
know tainted or or you know miss miss advertised.
And it's I find it kind of hypocritical because the same
people that were were pushing to to get psychedelics to that that
medical acceptance had to overcome a lot of that
propaganda themselves. And so I find it, you know,
strange when when they start proliferating their own
propaganda. Yeah, but but with, with
cannabis, I think, you know the the legalization of cannabis,
which is now I think 39 some odd states between medical and and
recreational has been the the best evidence of of democratic
activism in this country, at least in my generation.
You know, it was enough of a a grassroots campaign of people
who said to the government we think that this law is wrong and
that it should be repealed and that we should reconsider it.
And the psychedelics has a similar sort of history.
You know it was banned by Nixon in in 1969 and still to this day
is listed as a schedule one drug above scheduled 22 drugs which
include heroin, cocaine, crystal meth.
So the government is saying that that psilocybin and and
psychedelics are more dangerous than than these known narcotics.
And I think the obvious reason for that is because people that
were taking psychedelics and for that matter smoking cannabis in
the 60s were very anti war, anti government, anti capitalism and
that was really dangerous. Nixon said himself that that
drug users were like the biggest threat to to the country, the
biggest domestic threat. Yeah, it's interesting how all
the politics and the propaganda and the the red tape gets
intertwined with, you know, cannabis and and and mushrooms.
It's just there's definitely some ulterior motives at play
here, like who's going to make the most money?
Who's going to benefit from XY or Z?
And let's shift the regulations in favor of them is kind of how
it's unfolded, it seems when it comes to magic mushrooms,
psilocybin, are there really many known negative side effects
like that's not something that people probably going to do on a
daily basis? I wouldn't think it's kind of.
I mean, it's not really addictive in nature, correct?
Yeah, I really predicted that that mushroom legalization would
not go nearly as well as cannabis from a from a financial
standpoint for that very reason. That, you know, people will
smoke cannabis every day, but it didn't seem like like mushrooms
was something that people would take on a daily basis.
But that's proven not to be the case with the the popularity of
micro dosing. I think psychedelic mushrooms
are are taking on like a whole new meaning or a whole new
purpose for people. So instead of you know taking
3-4 grams and having this kind of shamanic ethereal experience,
people are are micro dosing just for general Wellness, mood, anti
anxiety, help from their their PTSD or even just to be a better
parent to their kids. And it's not that they're
they're high with their kids, but but the psilocybin and and
silicon and the ingredients in magic mushrooms are just working
in the background on a really small level.
And and that has become I think the main reason why it's
becoming mainstream. You know, it's it's less
daunting for people whether they've had a mushroom
experience or not. You know, I meet a ton of people
that that took mushrooms in high school or college and it was
such an intense experience. They're like, well, I don't
really need to do that. Again, it's not something I'm
interested in, in my thirties, 40s and 50s.
But the concept of micro dosing and I think really intrigues
people because it's more of like dipping your toe into the cold
water rather than, you know, jumping in naked without really
testing it. You know, it gives people an
opportunity to to revisit mushrooms from a different
perspective than maybe what they remember.
So from a a mechanistic standpoint, what is happening in
the body when someone's micro dosing psilocybin?
Like what is happening to give them a greater sense of calm,
reduced or anxiety? Like like how is that unfolding
physiologically? Right.
So neuroplasticity which we talked about in Lion's Mane is
is something that happens with psilocybin as well.
So the the Lion's Mane is with the closest legal mushroom to
psilocybin in that way and in extreme cases, you know, forming
new neural connections with with a psychedelic like psilocybin
can cause what's called synesthesia and that's
connections that aren't normally happening across the senses and
people report being able to see music or taste color, right.
And that's an extreme example. But in a micro dosing, I think,
I think of it as like creating new pathways in the forest and I
think mushrooms bring an enhanced awareness and just
living more in the present. And so for me, when I have an
experience or or just something that happens in my day where
normally I would be overtaken by my just gut reaction to it, I
think I'm having more awareness of my emotions and my thoughts
associated with, you know, saying like a customer hangs up
on me or something like that, right?
Normally I would just be, you know, frustrated, annoyed.
Now I'm sort of seeing that emotion and really thinking
about how that feeling of frustration or annoyance is a
choice. And because of that, it's kind
of presents a crossroads, if you will, where my mind is teaching
me, or maybe it's the mushrooms teaching me that.
How I react to that is really up to me.
And so I think that that is what is making people less anxious.
Having a better life is just more awareness and having more
ownership of of your feelings and of your thoughts and not
having them being controlled by the actions of others.
So it's kind of like supplemental meditation almost.
Yeah, yeah. The point of meditation, right,
is to live in the present and and be in the moment and and
realize that that is is everything that there is right
now. Is is all.
There isn't. Anything in the past or the
future is a is a memory or a projection?
So out of curiosity, like for for you as an example here
everyone again is going to be a little bit different based off
of you know, their body stats and how responsive they are to
different substances. But like, what is your personal
dosing strategy for both cannabis, CBD, THC and
mushrooms? Like how do you go about that?
How do you work that into your day-to-day?
Well, I start every day with a cup of mushroom coffee,
Microboost mushroom coffee, which has got 3000 milligrams of
the five different functional mushrooms that we work with,
3000 total. And then I also take our brain
supplement, which is a combination of Lion's Mane and
Cordyceps from From what I. Learned and read about
microdosing psilocybin, well for one like microdosing by
definition is subperceptual. So really if you're if you're
taking a a real micro dose, it's not something that is going to
affect your perception in a super noticeable way.
However, I found that that most people wanna have it something
just right on. The edge of perception, which I
found for most people including myself, is about 250 to 300
milligrams of your average strength mushroom.
Now this also really goes down another rabbit hole about
testing the psychedelic mushrooms and knowing how much
active psilocybin is in there. But just as a a general rule of
thumb, 250 to 300 milligrams of of your average strength
mushroom is just above that that threshold of perception.
And I take the the psychedelics only three or four mornings out
of the week and the reason for that is you can build a a
tolerance to it. So if you if you take it too
often, you just have to take more and more and it kind of
diminishes the effect. But but the combination of the
functionals I think really enhances it too, because they're
all working on your brain. They're all working on the body.
And I think, you know, one of the cool things about mushrooms
is they're, they're transformative in nature, right?
They take fallen trees and and dead dead animals and can
transform them into new soil and and and part you know just
reincorporating them into the the ecosystem.
And it's my belief that mushrooms work on people the
same way and that you know, that mushrooms know what what Robert
needs or or what Bob needs and what Sally needs.
And it's all all different. And so I think with the the
daily use, not just the, you know, occasional use that that
these things are are really changing our Physiology.
And and 250 to 300 milligrams of a psychoactive mushroom.
Is that like the equivalent of like one mushroom cap or what
does that look like in your hand?
Yeah, it all depends on the on the size and the weight.
But really what's important is that the active ingredients.
And so that's that equates to about 1 milligram of of
psilocybin or silicon in in about a 300 milligram dose.
And the quote UN quote hero dose is like, what a full Maggie
full. How's that work out?
Yeah. Typically that's at least like
an an eighth or 3 1/2 to 4G of mushrooms is is what's taken
for, yeah, really going on that that hero's journey and that's.
Probably not something that most people would be inclined to do
on a daily basis. Daily basis?
No, not unless you're a shaman. They're working in the spirit
realms, but it is it is amazing what what people are spending
money on now. There's a company in Colorado
that is inducing long, long DMT trips and DMT is a is another
psychedelic. It's found naturally in a in
ayahuasca and but typically it's it's smoked in its isolated form
and and last you know 10 to 15 minutes.
But there's this company in Colorado spending millions of
dollars to put people under a DMTIV drip and prolonging the
trip some 1012 hours at a time. And what's really interesting
about DMT is it's it's naturally released in our brains two times
when we're born and when we die. And so by taking DMT and you
know there's a lot of shared experiences that happen on this
where people report you know going to the same place or
meeting like entities in this other realm that that this
particular company suspects is because or they postulate that
it's a an actual place that we're visiting.
And so they're they're spending millions of bucks to have, you
know two guys go under this DMT drip in different rooms than
trying to like meet on this astral plane even going under
and and like a cartographer mapping this world that they're
exploring. So it's just fascinating to me
that that one people are spending millions of dollars to
to do this research, but it's, I don't know, just a cool, cool
time to be alive that that this is something that we're
exploring. Yeah, I've.
Heard I've heard about that a little bit like on Rogan's
podcast, where people will have a similar experience and they
see things, they see the same things having not met each other
in the past. It's just very it's like a it's
like a shared dimension when you're in there, which is just
crazy. Like all this is very trippy to
me for sure. Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, if it's a the drug that's released in your brain
when you die, I think it, you know, might have might explain a
lot of, you know, the near death experiences that people come
back and say that they, you know, saw their their aunt or or
an Angel or or a bright light and whatever that was.
And of course, I think that that, you know, death is, is
still like the universal question, what happens to us
when we die. And and I think also that what
happens in in sleep is something that I predict like in the
future if we're going to ever have some sort of like
scientific, you know, aha moment akin to like Galileo or
Copernicus where, you know, humans discover, oh, we're not
the center of the universe or that the the sun doesn't revolve
around the Earth. But.
But vice versa. I think that the fact that we
all, like, lay down for 7 to 8 hours a night and experience
this different level of consciousness and then just wake
up and, you know, immediately get pissed off in traffic or
start chugging coffee or you know, jumping on to a a zoom
call without really integrating what's going on.
Or even just like considering the fact that we are beings that
are operating or living in these sort of different dimensions or
reality or states of consciousness on a daily basis.
Yeah. No, I think it definitely adds a
whole other layer of perspective to us for sure.
I mean, it's so easy for us, especially with the current day
and age everybody be just so trapped in their day-to-day that
it's hard to break free of the noise in our lives.
And I feel like anything that we can do to break free of that, to
actually focus on what is truly important and discard that that
isn't, or at least recognize that it isn't.
I think it's key. What about really bad trips,
like a lot of people will do, you know, certain drugs and
they'll experience really bad trips.
I I've heard that a lot of that's just based off of your
frame of mind going into the trip like you want to be, you
know, in a safe place mentally prior to.
But like, can you speak on that at all?
Yeah. And you know people that are
advocates of the psychedelic assisted therapy would would
definitely point to having some guide, especially for the
uninitiated or the inexperienced to, you know, hold their hand or
or walk them through what could be a really profound the
experience. But you're right the the set and
setting as a as a common phrase used in in psychedelic trips
where the your environment is so crucial to your experience and
also your intentions going into it.
And I think that real psychedelic advocates would say
that there are no bad trips or that, you know, something that
is in the moment feels like a a challenge or a struggle or a
quote UN quote, bad trip is something that you need to
address or something that the mushrooms are are trying to show
you and something that is bothering you in your life.
And so I think that that that they have meaning as well or
that that they can. Yeah, that.
Makes sense to me. I feel like there's probably a
lot of pushback on legalizing psychedelics from an ethical
standpoint and people just being wary of, you know, playing God,
so to speak. What's your stance on that?
Like? Should people be able to figure
out how to be mentally, physically, emotionally healthy,
independent of these substances? Should that be something that
they are inclined to use as as a tool?
Like, how does one navigate those ethical waters?
Yeah, that's a great question and and I think one of the the
dangers of marketing any sort of supplement and you know but the
problem with with capitalism really getting involved in
psychedelics is it has become already marketed as this magical
cure all. There's the, there's a term
called the polan effect that's that's coined after the author
of this book that was published in 2018 that Michael Polan wrote
a book called How to Change Your Mind.
And it the Polan effect describes how it the, the
effects of psilocybin or or mushrooms can really be
overhyped and oversold. But really like you say it
really is a tool and I think it's one of the most powerful
tools that we have naturally occurring in the in the world.
So in that regard it does make them you know either extremely
helpful or potentially dangerous because they are so, so
powerful. And so I mean playing God it
seems to be something that our society is moving towards more
and more you know with with AI and with our our technology.
And so it seems appropriate to me that pharmaceutical companies
and and everybody else would be interested in harnessing these
natural tools or natural plants or fungus that are that are
growing on this Earth. And you know, trying to either
one like make that into a billion dollar product or just
on a, you know, a person to person level, you know, use it
as a tool to ascend and or be the the highest versions of
ourselves and maybe you know show us something that we
wouldn't have seen otherwise. But you're right.
I don't think you know using them as a crutch or or using
them on a daily basis is the point at all.
Rather it's it's to just open our minds to the possibility of
of what we already are or what we already can be.
Yeah. Is is there anybody like a
certain demographic or personality type that would
definitely not be a good candidate for experimenting with
this? Yeah, someone with bipolar
disorder or or serious mental health issues for sure.
As is the first person or the group of people that are always
advised against taking psychedelics as it could, you
know, enhance or or create like a psychotic break, you know.
If people are already prone to that, then then playing with
that part of your brain is probably something that you want
to avoid. I've I've talked to several
people that have struggled with incredible incredibly
debilitating, you know, dis disordered eating tendencies and
just OCD and things that have hindered them in life that have
gone the route of pharmaceutical drugs that wind up crippling
them even more. That have seemed to to make
incredible breakthroughs leveraging these more natural
remedies. Which, and my mind is great,
like if you can harness something that's more naturally
occurring and not, you know, be a a slave to pharmaceutical
prescription drugs for years on end like that just makes good
sense to me. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah.
There's a a great documentary on on Netflix called Fantastic
Fungi and probably the most famous mycologist in North
America. His name's Paul Stamets and he
had a stutter as a child and his first psychedelic mushroom
experience. He got rid of the stutter that
had bothered him his entire life.
You know, one experience and he never stuttered again.
You're right. I have friends that that quit
smoking or or quit drinking from 1 psychedelic experience.
And that's what I find also interesting and curious that
pharmaceutical companies are so fascinated and and racing to get
as many psychedelic patents as they can.
Because it seems counterintuitive to the
Pharmaceutical industry that they would sell a a product that
could cure your ailment in one treatment and not require you
know you to buy the product for the rest of your life and take
the product forever. Yeah.
It it is. Well man, like I know several
people that have used marijuana as a way to get off of just
excessive drinking and smoking. And just from a a physiological
standpoint, I mean I I don't know that much about the long
term implications of marijuana, but it certainly beats the long
term implications of excessive drinking or tobacco.
So the better of better of those options for sure.
Yeah, Bing Crosby. You know, singer from the the
40s famously beat his alcoholism by smoking cannabis.
I would assume like with smoking or just delivery vehicles in
general, like like let's talk about that for a second here.
When it comes to cannabis, you know you can smoke it, you can
do the gummies. What about delivery vehicles of
of the mushrooms? Is it predominantly just
consuming it as a as a gummy or as as the mushroom itself?
Like are people vaporizing and taking out the oil and
extracting the oil and using that in oil form?
Or like how is that done? Yeah, well First off, I mean the
the people who are making mushroom products are primarily
people that were we're in or still are in the cannabis
industry. So there's a lot of veterans
that you know already have the the machinery to make edibles is
the is the main form factor that mushrooms come in.
Chocolates, gummies, capsules, and no smoking mushrooms is
something that I've definitely seen a lot of people attempt,
right? Because the vaporizers are are
such a popular delivery system for cannabis.
But as far as I understand that the psilocybin is is really
temperature sensitive. So you might have a mushroom
vaporizer cartridge that might have some effect on the first
few hits but beyond that you're damaging the the actives in the
in the product. But, but besides the the
vaporizing now I'm starting to see all sorts of really creative
products out there from like electrolyte drink enhancers to,
you know, just every every flavor of of candy and chocolate
and you know, the same sort of form factors that were
popularized in in cannabis. Yeah.
That's interesting for sure. The gummies, I feel like those
blew up in popularity with the cannabis, but that's where you
get that ultra high concentration and people can
tend to overdo that pretty easily, right?
Yeah, and I mean as a as a supplement guy, we really saw
gummies blow up across the the supplement industry.
You know now now people like to take a gummy for for sleep or
for their apple cider vinegar or or whatever they're taking.
And I don't know if it was if it was cannabis or the the
supplement industry that was really the the first one there
to start popularizing that. But we've seen it across the
board. Interesting.
Well, what are you excited about, Man, there's all kinds.
I mean, you're on the the cutting edge here.
You're on a new frontier with the mushroom industry as a
whole. What?
What's got you excited with regards to your company and just
where things are heading? Yeah, I'm really excited.
I'm speaking at South by Southwest in Austin, TX next
month, March 8th. I'm on a panel with with some
friends who are are big mushroom advocates and and media and
mushroom testing and journalism. I'm really excited about that
and and this year I'm working on a book about mushrooms and just
exactly what we've been talking about and all the different
angles that people are coming to this emerging industry.
And so that's that's where I I'm spending most of my time and and
I'm really excited because it allows me the opportunity to
meet and interview and and talk to people that have been doing
this for a lot longer than me that come from all different
walks of life and have just really fascinating personal
experiences. You know, that are commonly back
go back to like the Amazon jungle or Timothy Leary in the
60s and you know some of my favorite writers like like
Hunter Thompson and and Burroughs and and Jack Kerouac.
So that is, is just really what excites me.
You know I find something that I'm I'm really curious about and
I I make it my life you know and so mushrooms are and micro boost
are a brand that I'm really passionate about but getting to
meet the the whole community especially I think before it
potentially sours like we we've seen the the cannabis industry
go is is a big thing for me and something that I'm I'm trying to
actively be a part of seeing this industry go differently and
in a better way for for everybody than cannabis I can.
Tell you're passionate about it, man, And that that's cool.
Like, I feel like a lot of people are getting into the
industry now because it is the hype.
I've seen that with the nutrition space unfold multiple
times and it it it is sad when it sours and people getting in
for the wrong reasons. But I mean the fact that you've
been trying to grow mushrooms in your closet since you were 16
years old speaks the fact this is something that you've
actually got a lifelong passion for, which is great.
And you built a business around that passion when it comes to
sourcing different mushroom supplements because there are so
many of them out there nowadays. Like where can people obviously
go to your company. But like just in general like
are there is like a third party testing you know stamp of
approval that is on reputable brands like how can people
ensure that they're getting good quality stuff.
Yeah, really soon. On our website I have a like
downloadable guide about how to read a mushroom label.
But you know, basically looking for that difference between
myceliated oats and fruiting bodies is the is the first step.
And so if you're evaluating a mushroom brand or a mushroom
product, that's what I'd look for.
You know, on their website or they're frequently asked
questions and if they don't specifically say 9 times out of
10, I would predict that that's a mycelium product.
But of course you can always ask as well.
Send the company an e-mail and ask them if they're using
fruiting bodies or mycelium in their product.
And if they kind of dodge the question then that gives you
your answer too. But that is the main difference.
And then otherwise, I think if you find a fruiting body product
that you like that that tastes good and you start to notice
that it's it's beneficial for you, then I'd stick with it.
And you know, people always ask me like why are these going to
work for me? And I always say like, hey, you
know, if mushroom coffee costs 30 bucks and and that'll give
you a month trial period, you know, even if there's a 10%
chance that it can improve your memory, your focus, your your
mental health, it's a great investment in my opinion and.
What? What is a?
What is a good like for somebody that that takes supplements?
A lot of someone's out there. I mean they've got great
marketing around them. They people spend a ton of money
on them. They can't feel a a bit of
difference whatsoever. What is a good supplement for
people to try, whether it be a coffee Creamer or a a pill or a
capsule for them to be able to know.
OK, this is legitimately I can feel a difference from that,
like just in Y'all's Park line as an example.
Like what would you recommend people try to to feel confident
they can actually experience a difference?
Well, the mushroom coffee is our most popular and it also has the
most amount of mushrooms per serving of any product that we
offer. So that's if you're going to try
just one product, that's what I'd recommend and it gives you a
little bit of of all the mushrooms that we work with.
So good for the brain, good for the gut, good for the immune
system, and that's where I'd start.
Awesome. Well, order me some, man.
I'll give it a shot. I'm curious to try it.
Oh yeah, yeah. Let's give me your your address
after this this interview and we're happy to send you.
So awesome. Man, I appreciate it.
Well, where do people go to find out more about you and just dive
deeper into your world? Man, I know you've got a lot of
blog posts on the site, very informative there.
So like, where do people go to just dig deeper?
Yeah, it's microboost.com and it's MYCRO Boost.
And that's also our Instagram handle.
You're right, I have a lot of writing about functional
mushrooms on that site and all the benefits of all of our
products in each individual mushroom that's in there.
And then if you want to find my my writing about psychedelics,
you can just Google Robert Johnson, Rolling Stone and
psychedelics. You'll find I have ten articles
up there now, not all of them about psychedelic mushrooms, but
all of them are about about mushrooms.
Some of them are about the the functional ones like Lion's Mane
that we've been talking about today.
But but those articles I'm really proud of.
You know, I I went to school for writing.
I always wanted to write about mushrooms and cannabis and
Rolling Stone and so it's been a a a dream fulfilled and one I I
continue to enjoy. It's awesome.
Man, it's awesome. Well, by all means, keep
fighting the good fight, keep doing what you're passionate
about, and keep adding value. I'm excited to give it a try
myself. I'm excited to dive deeper into
the mushroom world. I'm I'm really excited to see my
employee, you know flourish with his mushroom growing potential
because it is, it's just a cool process man.
Like, I like seeing things from start to finish and mushrooms
are are very unique. Like it's a pretty cool fungus.
Yeah, Thanks a lot and I really appreciate talking to you and
and I hope the listeners will have learned something and, you
know, give mushrooms a try. Absolutely.
Man. Well, until next time, Robert.
Take care, brother. Thanks a lot.
Cheers.