Well, hello ladies and gents, Robertson keto savage.com to
never get special guest Nathan Johnson on the line.
He is the man behind Autonomy, which is a health and fitness
program that he established for catering to South Asian and the
Indian community. So I wanted to bring one of the
podcast pick his branch to what it looks like in helping that
cultural community from a dieting and nutrition
standpoint, how to make things sustainable, what to do from a,
you know, fitness component. Like how, how do you go about
training with a community that is less versed in, you know,
having that just as an upbringing when you have a lot
more of the cultural components with meals and the types of
foods. I just wanted to pick his brain
because that's that's something that I didn't know that much
about the South Asian and Indian community as a whole.
Obviously the same rules apply when it comes to what to
consume, the amounts to consume all that good stuff.
But just how he went about it from a psychological component
and working with that client demographic.
So 3rd into the conversation of getting that you will take
something from it. So for the delay, sit back,
relax and do a podcast with Nathan
and we are live. Nathan, how are you, brother?
Yeah, good man. I'm really.
Really happy to be here, how about yourself?
I'm good man, I'm good. I always enjoy talking with
other fitness nutrition coaches online because everybody's got
their own unique style and technique.
So I'm kind of excited to learn from you, man.
I'm excited to peel the curtain back and and dive deeper.
So what gets you into this in the first place?
So I was just one of those fat kids.
Yeah. It just ended up eating a lot, a
lot of biscuits, a lot of ice cream, and then decided that I
needed to do something about it. As I was going through that
process, I had an injury, so I kind of got into the
rehabilitation space first and then I needed a job to support
that, so I became a personal trainer and that just escalated
into then just enjoying that more.
So ended up becoming a personal trainer by accident really.
Nice, nice. Well, what's interesting about
you is that you're. Where are you located?
I'm in Dubai. OK, you're in Dubai, yet the
majority of your clientele are in South Asia, right?
Yes, a majority are from India or Pakistan or Bangladesh, but
most of them reside in the UK, the US West Coast, East Coast
that mainly like Bay Area and and Chicago and and all of them
are yes South Asia. So you're, you're I, I love
business, man. We can talk about business, we
can talk about nutritional, like good stuff.
But when it comes to to business, you know, you always
hear about niching down on a specific target demographic and
really appealing to them. So what made you cater to that
audience? Do you know, it was never
intentional, but it turns out to be really good is that seven
years ago, I was working for a friend who owns another fitness
company who special. He was Indian, so he got a lot
of referrals through friends and family.
They have a massive community. So that when I started working
for him, I was just this white guy working with these Indian
people that I knew nothing about.
I knew nothing about the food, I knew nothing about the culture.
I had to learn very, very quickly and when I decided to
make my own thing, I just simply people wanted to work with me
because of my methods, how I treated them, the results they
were getting, and then it just became a thing.
It took me a long time to believe that that's what I could
put out, put out on social media.
It was only maybe 2-3 years ago. I, I kind of niched in on, on
socials, but I've, I've been doing the Indian community,
South Asian community for the last seven years.
It was just, it was never really a choice.
It just happened by the clients that you're around.
Yeah, no, totally man. But when it comes to like South
Asian and Indian cuisine, that is like, I don't I don't know
how to I don't know how to track macros, know how to, you know,
manipulate those. But I don't know, the first
thing I had to like do meal prep when it comes to to Indian
cuisine. So like, was that something that
you were familiar with yourself? Is that, but what you were
consuming that just kind of came naturally to you or how did?
You know, having. That conversation.
Yeah, I mean, the the the best part about my job was that I
just got to have to eat a lot of the food and lots of trial and
error and the go around to clients houses and being like,
oh, this is the thing that you've been cheating on your
diet with Ohio. I can see why you've been doing
that. So when we because it usually is
the whole element of tracking macros and hitting protein
targets. And then this community, I guess
really struggled with that concept, especially when they
eat in home cooked food from home.
When mum's making your aunties, making it with God knows amount
of oil and you know, God knows levels of portion sizes.
And within that community, the, the weighing scales or, or like
metric, you know, using, using the way to waste off is not like
not appropriate unless you're making a cake.
The Wayne girls do not belong in the kitchen.
So we had to find different ways around catering to people who
wanted to eat that food. And that's kind of how, yeah,
we, we specialized ourselves where it's like, yeah, if you
want to weigh food and track stuff, that's cool.
But majority of people in that community will fail if they're
eating home cooked food. Which means you just need a
different method, you know, different, a different way of
doing things. Because a lot of what they're
eating is like super, you know, sauce heavy and like soups and
things that would be almost impossible to track with any
degree of accuracy from like a weight standpoint.
Like in America, you know, you're tracking like like a lot
of people have broccoli rice and you know, chicken breast.
So that's pretty easy to weigh out.
But like a bunch of sauces and soups, that's that's a lot
harder. Yeah, really, really hard where,
you know, we, we like to go on the, the, the concepts of like
better and like overestimating as or underestimating.
We even, we know from the research side of things, when
people are largely overweight, they underestimate the calories
they're eating. And then on top of that, you've
got all of the things like cooking sauces and seasonings.
So we try to make AI guess more. If we're looking from a
mechanical perspective, we, we ask for a larger deficit when
we're setting clients up and we use that like kind of buffer of
like like 1 to 200 calories is a bit of a, you know, a source
source buffer, if that makes sense.
Yeah, no, totally. How would you compare their
average consumption versus like standard American diet?
Because like, I know, you know, in America there's all the fast
food that the general population is not a very good spitting
image of health by any means. Most people are overweight.
And there's just a lot of, you know, seed oil consumption, a
lot of processed carbohydrates. There's a lot of junk food.
I'm assuming the same is true there as well.
Yeah. I mean the IT, it kind of is, is
a bit different. So within Indian or South Asian
community, the foods that they consume or that can be high in
fibre can be somewhat nutritious, but they just over
consume it in portion sizes rather than like kind of, I
guess the, the processed nature or the high fat content.
A lot of their foods, a lot of carbohydrate heavy.
So they, they just tend to have a lot more in bolus doses.
So from a cultural perspective, when they go around to someone's
house, it's accustomed to eat food, it's accustomed to have
multiple plates, it's accustomed to not say no because it means
that they're being disrespectful.
So I tend to see that they, they go through waves rather than
maybe the average American or through someone from the UK
eats, you know, consistently 3 thousand 3500 calories.
Whereas I think with the, the Indian community, South Asian
community, they might do two or three or four days on, you know,
lower than that. But then they have these
outbursts, should we say, of large consumptions because they
are social creatures. They are always around their
auntie's house, they're always around their uncle's house,
they're always with family, which then in those moments,
that's when food is everything to them and that then becomes
the largest spikes. You know, it wouldn't be
uncommon for a meal to have two 2 1/2 thousand calories in once
you've had second portions of things.
So it can get, it can get very caloric very quickly.
Yeah, no, totally. So the quality of the food's
probably better than just having these massive bolus spikes of it
from time to time on a regular. Basis, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think also that's a trap that they also fall into because
they believe it's healthier or they believe that it's more
nutritious. So they will have more of it
because there's also that rationale, right?
Who it's like, Oh no, this isn't as bad as that ultra processed
stuff that we get from Chick-fil-A or Wendy's.
So we can have more of this. And, and then they over consume
and, you know, first rule of fat losses, you know, make sure that
you're not eating loads and loads of calories.
So they, they do fall into the trap.
Just a different navigation route.
Yeah, and that makes total sense.
Is there like a specific type of, you know, diet or philosophy
towards nutrition that is that is popular there?
Like here in the States, you know, we've kind of gone through
courses, it kind of depending upon which circles you're
hanging at in. But like there's, you know, the
the Paleo diet was popular and then keto and then carnivores
really popular. Now, are those in the
conversation there at all, or is that not so much a thing?
Yeah. So it's really like it's, it's
split between I guess it's like the the word that they use for
people that are not in India, they're called Desi's or people
that have we call them expats. Like I'm an expat to Dubai.
I come here, I've got my visa, my my residency here.
Whereas if you're Indian or South Asian and you go to, you
know, Bay Area for a tech job, for example, you're called a
Desi. And within the Desi community,
they're a lot more per SE westernised.
So they will have, you know, we have a lot of clients that, you
know, intimate and fast and, or they come in towards intimate
and fasting. They come in towards trying the
quote UN quote, Mediterranean diet or low carb diet.
But then actually within India itself, the more traditional you
go, the more higher verdict that there is.
There's no, you know, medicinal medicine based diets.
So it's almost like a very location based rather, but then
like kind of cultural. Interesting, very interesting.
Now that you've been kind of experimenting with with that
cuisine for quite some time now, what what is an Indian dish
that's very prominent there that you'd never heard about prior to
to get into that, but. Here we go.
I've just had dinner so I'm luckily I'm not hungry.
So there's there's one called a pal baggie.
So pal baggie is basically a bread roll with potato, like a
Mashed potato in the middle with various different seasonings.
Basically, it's a it's a carb carb sandwich.
That's what it is. But it, but it's also like it's
got like a chili in the middle of it.
The sauces come very, very sweet.
So you got like a, if you like your taste profiles, Indian food
is the best for that. So it's got like it's softness
on the outside of the bun. It's got the spiciness of the,
the sauce. It's got the potato in the
middle that's quite filling and texturous.
And then sometimes they add what we call Chevro on the top, which
is like a crunchy, crunchy flavouring, which is it hits all
of the spots taste sweet, salty, crunchy, soft.
So yeah, take take sensation. Nice, nice.
I just got back from a like 10 day stint in Brazil and there's
obviously like a lot of meat in Brazil.
So getting your protein and fats and are not really challenged
there. Is there like a lot of meat
consumption by default in India? Is that not so much the thing?
So I, I get when you split it into two, like there is a large
religious element to the cultural dynamics too.
So there is even small parts that are not small parts are
actually rather large, but there's different religious
diets as well. So there's, there's what we call
a Jane diet, a Jane Swaminorian diets were like, they're not
even allowed like garlic and onion within the house.
They won't eat certain foods. They'll have particular fasting
days where they have they're only allowed to eat certain
types of food as well. So not only is consistency hard
normally, but then when you Chuck in a few of these days
where you can only eat these 10 foods or you can't have it in
the house first, you can't have it in the house, it becomes very
challenging. And it's primarily veggie like
really at home. Traditionally in in India is
much a veggie diet, but there's a large amount of large populace
that do eat the meat from a religious perspective, They
don't, most of them don't eat beef, although there are
multiple outliers that do like a good steak in New York or
whatnot. But yeah, there's there's a lot
more people eating meat now, but there is a big 5050 split on
veggie diets versus like meat eating.
But the majority of them will stay away from beef.
What about like fish? Is there like fish and seafood
consumption higher? It's it's actually much less
like to be honest, like I've been doing this seven years with
India South HP. I haven't heard anyone really
say to me, Oh, you know, I've really enjoyed that salmon this
weekend. So it's normally probably
potentially when they go out for dinner and stuff while they're
having it in the salad. But I've never really heard, you
know, many of our clients go like I've made a good fish dish
today. So I guess it's it's independent
individual dependent, but that's not something that is a massive
thing where where I've experienced.
So I would imagine from from your standpoint, just simply
getting your clientele pool to eat enough protein is probably
one of the bigger challenges. Yeah, it's, it's absolutely
massive. I think there's like a massive
overcorrection now within the Desi USUK community where like
everyone knows that they haven't eaten protein for the last 50
years or whatnot. So they're going super hard on
it. They're, you know, they're,
they're trying to get as much in as possible, which can be to
detriment to, to go over and over over their calories.
But yeah, majority of our work is telling people that, you
know, chickpeas and lentils are not going to grow your muscle
and trying to over consume then trying to chase your protein.
So yeah, we have a lot of like, I guess culture behaviour,
psychological kind of conversations about how they
need to change some of their favorite dishes or the way that
they cook or even that the kitchen dynamics of getting more
protein in their diet. You know, a prime example of
this is most like Indian, South Asian dishes normally come with
a bit of yoga on the side of the plate, maybe 4050 grams if
you're looking at the weigh in metric, whereas no decent
serving of protein in, in, in, in yoga is, you know, 2 to 300,
you know, grams. And getting someone to eat that
amount of yoga doesn't feel natural for them.
So it become that that becomes the most like kind of big
challenge. And we're like, oh, how do I get
them to eat these dosages of protein?
And some of them, you know, have even from a younger age have
been taught 01 egg is enough. You know, the, you know, 1 egg
is, is making know it's going to be 6 crunch protein Max.
So trying to get them to eat three eggs or, you know, egg
whites or various different egg dishes is also quite challenging
as well. So, yeah, a lot of our job is,
is incorporating wherever they sit on that spectrum of protein
and just trying to up it by 1020% at a time until they get
to a point where they're comfortable making it a part of
their lifestyle. As opposed to, you know, me just
telling them you need to go and hit 200 grams tomorrow because
that's, that can become quite a shock.
And adherence is, is obviously the, the, the major factor that
we try and look at. It it's interesting man, like so
many people are so just delusional with regards to how
much protein they actually need. And I feel like that
overcorrection is taking place here as well.
I mean, I see people consuming, you know, way too much protein
and at the detriment of not ample dietary fat, for instance.
But like with when it comes to people that are not generally
eating enough protein, it's strange.
Like they think, OK, I'm eating an egg.
Egg is known for having protein, so my protein requirements are
met for the day. They they assume that as long as
it's got protein in it, they've had protein.
Like there's no thought as to how much protein they should be
targeting a day-to-day basis, but just that a fact that it has
protein seems to be sufficient for them, which is definitely
not the case. No, it's.
I think it's like there's a difference between applying
effort to something and doing enough of it to get a response.
You know, it's that dose response thing.
Most people don't think about the dose response.
They think about is it more than I was consuming before?
Yes. Then it must be good.
We're actually like, if you're chasing protein through peanuts,
you know you're going to be, you're going to be waiting a
long time to hit your hit your numbers, and therefore the
effort could be well spent somewhere else with adequate
information. Totally.
So how do you, when these people
are coming to work with you, where, where are they typically
coming from? Like are they coming from a
place of just unhealth? Like are they struggling with
some type of metabolic syndrome currently or like what?
What is your typical client avatar I guess?
Yeah, client avatar, I guess is 35 to 45 looking at having kids
or or having already one to two of them mainly working in the
corporate or their own business and then coming towards on that
back of maybe having or being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes.
That are large populace within the community, which is unlike
recognized within the research of PCOS.
A lot of the females have that and then coming to us being
like, hey, like I've got this method, I've got this metabolic
thing, I've got this health thing.
And also my weight is hindering not only my confidence, but my
ability to have kids or, you know, to, you know, to, to play
that big role in, in, in the whole relationship side of
things too. So that's where they mostly come
in. We rarely get the younger
generation just because of how we do our coaching.
We, we, we generally work with people that are, you know, 30
plus. Gotcha, gotcha.
And how do you structure your coaching like you have them come
in, do a questionnaire, kind of get some some baseline topics
from how do you how do you typically organise that?
Yeah. We, I think that from what I've
experienced in the past, I think we're quite thorough because we
our, our business is called Autonomy.
So we want to give people choice and control.
So we never really give plans or things based on questionnaires.
I used to do that in the past, maybe at my other companies that
used to work at it just was really, really difficult to
actually diagnose what the person needed.
So we, we do questionnaires, we do detailed responses, but then
we most importantly just hop on a call with them.
And as we go through the call, we're we're very much designing
the plans together to get to a point where they're happy to do
something and it. Also fits with their lifestyle.
We we use like the the the rule of like the.
Three CS within nutrition, which is like, it's not really AC, but
I just coined it this way. It's like home, home life
consistency, work life consistency and you know, social
life consistency. So we make plans for all three
of those areas when they first start.
So, you know, I don't believe that most people have a seven
day plan. They, they work in like
different environments. And if we can create the right
plan for that environment, they're more than likely be
consistent in that environment. So we set it up like that with a
full level of commitment where they are deciding ultimately
what they're going to do right now and if what, what they can
commit to right now. Yeah, I feel like the regardless
of the type of dieting protocol someone's following, I think
most coaches will agree that the sustainability factor is, is
key. And I mean, you could have
everything dialed in perfectly, but if it's not sustainable,
you're not going to see the results with it.
And I would imagine with a community that is so, you know,
heavily culturally based with regards to their food
consumption, finding ways to make that sustainable is going
to be first and foremost the most important thing.
Yeah. Yeah, because happy mum, happy
life. You know, if you're living with
the parents and they rule the kitchen, you know, it doesn't
matter what the diet says, if mum says it opposite, then mum
wins, you know, so we try and play with the cards that we've
dealt and, and ultimately everyone has their own
situations. We've got people that cook,
we've got people that eat their parents food.
We've got people that, you know, live in Central New York and
eat, eat their their local restaurants every single day.
So, you know, ultimately their situation will govern the
ability to adhere to a certain plan.
So we we look at the situations and scenarios that they're
placed in and then plan around it.
How do you how do you get through to people?
How do you work around the cultural component of not
wanting to appear rude? Like if you're going to one of
these these festivities and it's it's customary to have multiple
portions, but they don't need to consume multiple portions.
Like how do you address that? Like a lot of people here in the
States, you know, they'll have they'll have celebrations for
everything drop of a hand. There's a celebration a lot of
times that gets people in trouble because it just gives
them an excuse to eat and excess and eat the wrong things.
So I've kind of taken like an approach of look, you know, if,
if you really and truly want this goal, like if you're
unhealthy, if you, if you're suffering from metabolic
syndrome, then you seem to be like honest with yourself and
those around you. It's like, look, this is where I
need to take things. This is where I need to
prioritize my health. Hopefully you're in support of
that and we can move on to the next chapter.
But that that's often times harder in different different
cultural settings. Yeah, yeah, I, I think totally
depends on the, the pain of which the, the particular thing
they came in for is, is governing their life.
Is that the more pain someone's in, the more they're willing to
make that big jump of saying no. And I think they're less pain
someone's in or they're more be encouraged by other people
around, the more influenced by them.
I think you have to take a look. Maybe a different approach.
So we, we like to present the options.
So if someone goes, are you going to this event, it's going
to be OK. Are you prepared to no say no to
AB and C? And if they say we're not at
this time, it's a big event or no, I feel quite rude.
OK, awesome. So here's what you can do in the
rest of the day to make up for it.
Or we will make a course of the coaching processes to change
psychological behaviours rather than just like offering
techniques for calories. So we, we like to make sure that
even if today you're having that second plate and we've factored
it into, you know, your lunch or breakfast steps, what you're
doing tomorrow in terms of your output, that over the course of
the next three to six weeks, you bring more nose into the
equation to the point where you feel a lot more comfortable to
do so. And at some point I feel like,
you know, the hard arsing me who's not as not as fair
sometimes just says like you just need to get one over the
line of just being a little bit more hard nosed and all of those
feelings will go away. You know, the, the most of the
clients that I've had that have been really successful at some
point stop caring about the alternative opinion because of
where that's LED them. And I think once you get someone
in that position where their actions are not serving their
goals, you can have that conversation and that they're
willing to change. Some people that's at the
beginning of the journey for somebody else that's, you know,
5 to 1020 lbs down and you just can't get the next 5 lbs because
of those situations. They're a lot more open to
change when it's in direct competition to their goals.
So we, we give them all the strategies.
And then when they're ready to take that plunge on making that
big change, then we'll just, you know, even down to the words of
like, we'll script out something that they're going to say to
their family members and we'll help help them like say those
particular words. Because sometimes it's, it's
never really about the nutrition strategy.
It's actually about the communication.
I think from when you mentioned about the cultural dynamics that
it majority comes down to the weight in which the the family
members are seen, but also the communication styles that are
utilized within the community often doesn't lead to somebody
being a lot more open with their dialogue.
So we'd helped even people just communicate their feelings more
openly, which then leads to people understanding and then
giving them a bit more license to, you know, leave them the
fuck alone basically. It's it's tough, man.
Like like us as a species is a strange phenomena because like
you don't really experience this in any other animal species.
Like if you get a bunch of, you know, lions out in the wild and
you got one big fat lion like the other fat lion, the other
lions don't make fun of the fat lion.
They just like, it's not conducive to be fat if you're
trying to hunt your own food. Whereas like when you're, you
know, a human and being, you can easily get food.
Most situations allows you to easily get food.
So like you don't have that risk.
And then it becomes this, this psychological emotional
component that comes to the table.
And it's strange because you can look at the people around you
that are unsupportive of your goals, yet you do not want to
emulate what they have done with their life.
So why would you give a shit what they think in the 1st
place? You know, like it's very, it's
very strange scenario. Yeah, it's a it's a it's the
complex being of, of, of personalities or psychological
subsets. And especially within, within
the community idea with the within, like the research in the
way that the, the upbringing is, there's a lot of guilt and shame
that's utilized in the leverage point of the older generation to
get what they want to exhibit control, to exhibit structure.
You know, even down to what university you go to, what
occupation that you go and do. Like my clients or who are like
35 plus and I speak to them, they've been funnelled down a
path of, of a different occupation than they kind of
wanted to because that was what their family wanted them to do.
So all of these then come into those food situations because
they've been told what to do for the last 10 years with their who
they date, who they eat, what they eat, who they marry, what
job they go and do. And that same person is the same
person telling them to eat the two to three plates.
So they're just conditioned to listening to the person that
provides them with some level of guilt and shame to do the thing
they want them to do. And it's almost breaking 20
years worth of trauma to just say no to a plate of food.
And that might sound dramatic, but it you know, when you when
you. Look at the the levels of like.
In those moments, the way that they're talked to, the way
they're demanded, the way that they're expected, it can be
quite hard for that person to break that mould despite the
most level, the highest level of willpower or motivation, you
know it. Towards their goal because.
Sometimes family to some people and their and their their
relationship with that person mean more to them than the 5 lbs
that they want to lose. What happens when they do start
breaking that mold? I mean, do they start letting
that transcend just the food they're putting in their mouth
and they start, you know, becoming more independent in
other areas of their life? I would imagine like that.
Would probably cause some. It's a it's a beautiful domino,
like maybe their their parents don't think so, but they do seem
to get on board with it later. But it's a beautiful domino
because once someone has a little bit of quote UN quote
autonomy, where the decision making, they're a lot more
happier. They're a lot more free will and
a lot more free spirited to try new things, which then, you
know, transcends and moves into the realm of them doing things
that they like and enjoy and, and get the benefits from those
like kind of new newfound things.
You know, we've had, I've had a lot of people who have gone
through their own fitness journey and decided to career
switch or, you know, change the dynamic they're in, in terms of
relationships or environments because of how funneled it was
previously or how rigid and structured it was to now
thinking about what that what's better for them.
And it's that transition of where they start controlling
their food and prioritizing themselves in that format.
And then they use that framework to govern the rest of their
lives too, you know, is it beneficial for them?
Do they want to do it? Does it have a benefit?
Is it, you know, what I want or is it someone, what someone else
wants? And that moment where, you know,
I've never really had a client that hasn't improved their their
other areas of their life went by not taking it, by taking
control of their food. Yeah, I feel like it all.
I feel like that's like the baseline, man.
Like whenever my life's going crazy, like if I at least
maintain my, you know, principles with regards to my
nutrition and my training, then then I'm solid and I can, I can
climb out of whatever hole I'm in.
But like, if I'd look, if I let those go on the wayside, then
then I'm really lost, you know? Yeah, I'm the exact same.
When I am going through a really busy part with like the business
or, or I want to improve my golf game or what I'm trying to do, I
normally go back into like a more structured diet.
Like I'll even if I only want to lose a couple of kilos, that
little level of like mental focus, that mental clarity, that
structure, that routine, that more inward thinking and what do
I need to do? When do I need to do it a little
bit more? You know, self structure, it
always tends to do really, really well.
It's the moments when I lose those control is more when I
when I feel less in control. Yeah, totally.
I think like when I'm in a prep, I'm eating pretty much the same
thing every single day, every single week.
I'll change the quantities from week to week, but the the
day-to-day meals are the exact same.
And I think removing the choice and the decision fatigue is, is
monument. Like if you get a hard time
going on your life and you are constantly being battered with
decisions and thoughts, some positive, some negative, but
they're just taking up all your mental bandwidth to also throw
on food choices on top of them is what often times knocks
people out their rocker. But if they know, OK, and this
is what I'm going to eat, this is what I'm going to eat, and
this is how my body's going to respond to it, and that's just
never even a question, then they've got all that bandwidth
opened up to do everything that is more important at the time.
Yeah, it's the dichotomy of choice.
Everybody wants choice, but performs worse with it.
Yeah, like I like I I get my food delivered to my door every
single day. And since I've been doing that,
you know, there's there's never been a point where I'm like, oh,
shall I order a take away tonight, you know, or about a
bad day at work. Should we be should we go and go
for drink or whatnot? It's like my foods that the
decisions already done. All I have to do is just open up
it take a spoon and and eat my food.
So I actually, I think clients or go in that, that that loop as
well. They they yearn for more choice
or more freedom. They get that choice and
freedom. It doesn't really end well.
And then they end up like raining in and and self
regulating their choices because of those.
They, I guess they prioritize headspace over, you know, the,
the flavours. And that comes from having ten
different breakfast options or 20 different meal options for
dinner. Yeah.
And it's interesting because just kind of look at this from a
cultural standpoint in, you know, South Asia.
Like if if they are, you know, forbidden a lot of choice in
other areas of their life, I would see how it would make
sense for them to want more choice with their food.
But freedom doesn't. I mean, choice and freedom
aren't necessarily the same thing.
Like I like, I love Jocko's quote of discipline equals
freedom. Like when you are disciplined,
you oftentimes self restrict a lot of choices.
So it may seem limiting in that regard, but it's still a choice.
But you just chosen to have fewer options.
But that in doing so, that allows for much more freedom on
the grand scale, which I think is the the overall goal.
Yeah, Yeah. No, I totally agree.
And we have a lot of like our South Asian plants that are more
like from Pakistan. They're they're primarily Muslim
and in that in that community in itself, which is a whole
different ball game towards compared to India, is that their
only real like outlet they have is food.
They don't, you know, smoke, they don't drink or, you know,
from a from a true practice perspective.
So when they get told to, you know, cut down the portions or,
you know, limit the take away that they're eating, that was
like the only free choice that they had to expand, enjoy and,
you know, live life through it. And I think that that also then
present presents a really hard barrier to to kind of be more
adherent long term. If it's the only thing that you
seek in joy and you only have enjoyment from it, it's really
hard to restrict something that you literally yearn for because
it represents so many other things just than other than just
food. So how do you how do you work
with them then? How do you come back then?
I think the it's more like a, those conversations are more
like, I guess sales conversations rather than like
like fitness and nutrition conversations.
It's like, you know, are the things that you're doing right
now producing a positive or negative, you know, result, you
know, do you think by changing this, it's going to improve or,
you know, contribute what, what benefit are you looking for?
Like what is it that you're looking for out of food?
And then trying to find that middle ground between what they
say that they want versus like what's going to move us in the
right direction. So, you know, they might say,
you know, I really want to have, I want to go out with the boys
and I want to have a mixed grill.
OK, perfect. So let's go and give you a mixed
grill or a chicken, you know, shawarma, for example.
Then here's the here's how you factor in the rest of the day.
So you give them that guest, those short term tactics of like
the buffering, the, the calorie management strategies to 1st get
them on board with, you know, reducing their, their intake
and, you know, seeing some tangible results.
Once you get those results and you see that the, the weight is
going in the right direction, I think you have a lot more
ability to play those more habitual cards later down the
line, once you get some like kind of trust and some authority
that a, this thing is working. I just need to now make some
further tweaks to amplify those results.
That makes total sense. Do you actively push away
clients from America, for instance, or are you like like
what do you kind of do with it? Like you do you factor them out?
Do you work with everybody? You just had the majority of
your clients coming from South Asia, Pakistan, or or do.
You actively avoid most of them are UK or US based.
So like we, we only have like one rule is like if you're South
Asian or you're Indian, we work with you.
If you're white or black or Hispanic, we, we don't.
So we literally, if you fall into that category, we'll, we'll
work with anybody, anytime, any place.
Like we're here to help. So as long as you're part of our
demographic that we know that we do great things with, then we're
good. So yeah, we have a few clients
in India, but majority is, is West Western, Western clients
just. Because of the I guess the the.
The, the gap to finances or you know, you know, money is, is a
large part of, you know, the, the wealth versus poverty in, in
India is a large gap, which is like a very, very wealthy 1% and
they're very, you know, poverty stricken 99%.
So we just don't see a lot of our client base coming from
there. But a lot of our clients are
more the people that have lived in the US now for what their
their parents are the 1st generation that moved over
they've, you know, had a business or they've, you know,
moved into a different kind of occupation and now their kids
are gone through medical school or, you know, dentistry.
Or or Law law for. Example And then now they're
overweight because they're they've gone through Med school
and they've got some poor eating habits.
Gotcha, gotcha. So let's talk about some some
tangibles when it comes to like, if you're, you know, reducing
your caloric intake and you're trying to stay within cultural,
you know, realms of the types of food you enjoy and are, you
know, often times in the the family setting there and it's
not easy to weigh the food. They don't really have food
scales. Like how do you typically go
about that from a very practical standpoint?
Are you doing kind of like a reduced just the meal frequency
throughout the day, kind of like a OMAD approach and push your,
you know, one feeding back to to that festival setting?
Or how do you typically structure that?
So we, we like to take more of that the the long term approach
1st and then move it down to something a little bit more
aggressive. Like I think for us, if we, if
we started with like the one meal a day, a lot of those
people would fair that because they would get these larger
consumptions of their favorite foods and then have one meal
where they could have, you know, below 1500 to 2000 calories.
But I think long term, trying to move people away from that once
they've got a bit of a taste of that is really like it's
problematic for most people because most people can't really
stick to one meal a day for the next 10 years.
So we like to do the precision nutrition stuff without the hand
portion. So we're like what we call it
the one plate rule. So like pick a carb sauce, it's
have a rice or it's roti or nawn bread and then pick, you know,
pick if there's a protein because most dinners within the,
the Indian culture come in like it's either a Curry based dish
with sauce, then it'll have a carb.
And then if you're lucky, there's, there's green things on
the side. So we encourage them to get more
green things, you know, by themselves.
And then we'll then portion out that protein, whether it's the
lentils Curry or it's the chicken Curry, for example.
And then we'll, we'll pick one carb sauce on the side.
So for most people, that's like the starting blocks as they get
further down, you know, if you've got 120 LB female, most
of those meals are still not going to be to the, to the
standard of the chloric needs that they need.
They're going to be have to be reduced.
So for some meals in the day, if they're eating all of those
foods cooked by somebody else, we'll probably, we'll probably
do like, you know, 300 calorie breakfast and then we'll do like
A1 plate rule for lunch, but without the carbs.
So it's just protein veggies and then we'll have like a protein
carb veggies for the evening. And maybe if we can fit in a
snack, depending on the variables, we'll do that.
But most of the time it's teaching them what a real
portion size of carbohydrates and protein and then working
back off those once. You know, I do favour something
that has more about two to four feedings across the day just
because I think from a pattern perspective, teaching people
that they can blow 1500 calories in one meal is feeding the
problem. Probably not, you know,
increasing the ability for change.
Yeah. Do they, do they drink a lot of
the calories? Do you like a lot of sodas or
anything that is it mostly just water?
Most of it is juices and Chai, which is tea with sugar.
So you know, a Chai Chai tea would be anywhere between 50 to
100 calories depending on the sugar.
So we have to factor that in before normally it's one of
those like you would probably talk and talk to to me and you
about how many, how many coffees you have a day and how many
lattes and can you move down to black coffee.
Whereas in that community you don't have Chai without milk.
So it's like a basically you have in the milk and, and we
just have to figure out how many we're going to have.
And then with the fruit juices, normally that comes when people
or the juices did the caloric intake from drinks normally come
in when they start a healthy thing because they think like
orange juice or watermelon juice is healthy or, you know, these
variables and it just leads to them consuming more calories
than they need to. So we try and get them to eat as
much of their food as possible. And then if they do say, Hey,
can I have some orange juice or can I have more tea or whatnot,
then we'll we'll look at factoring that around the the
meals that they've got. What about sweet tooth?
Like they typically have a sweet tooth.
A lot of desserts. Yeah, that's a, that's a that's
a cultural dynamic there as well.
Like every meal like the favorite saying is like a have
to have something sweet after a meal.
So. Again, it's the same
conversation as the before about, but the, the willingness
to change. Like obviously the the easiest
way to do this is not to have something sweet after a meal
like a Coke cereal or something like that might be useful.
But like if they, if the no, for most people, it's like, okay,
well, how much are you having as a sweet after a meal?
Like you're having a full dessert.
That's not you want it in a suite, that's you want in
dessert to speak different, different, different in factor.
So we're trying to minimize it as small as possible to
something that's maybe less than 50 calories and then we'll then.
You know, either, you know, we like trade-offs, you know, we
like to like give them something, but also get
something back in return. So and then teach them that
there's nothing for free. So if they want to have
something sweet after a meal, we'll then also look at probably
a higher step out and be like. Hey, if you want these things,
these are not, you know, normal, you know, dietary protocols or
they're not things that you want to kind of have in because of
this impact or this impact. We will, we will just then trade
off for something different. So maybe more workouts, less,
more steps, you know, minimize, you know that.
Or the niceties that they might like to have like, you know, off
time meals or you know, their toast in the morning for
example, or their savoury sweets.
So we'll do those trade-offs for the real things that they really
want and then teach them. About that kind of psychological
trade off. What I've, I've seen a lot of
people in the US and I've kind of played around this as well,
but for people that for clients and I've had that don't really
know, you know, Mac Tracro tracking macros, weight training
like that, there's not well versed in that.
Simply having them wear CGM, even if they're not diabetic,
just so they can see that, hey, the foods you eat does have an
impact on you metabolically. But that's pretty eye opening
for a lot of people. Do you think your demographic
would be receptive to that or not so much do?
You know, I think it would be the only demographic that that I
would say the majority would are quite desensitized to that.
The only reason why I say that is because the the population
with family members that have got type 2 diabetes and.
But when I asked them about if they're concerned about things
like that, they're like, no, I'm not really concerned about it
because it's just in my genetics.
So they're, they're very much like, unless like you had
someone that was open to data, like we have a lot of very, very
clever clients who are like business owners and open to more
analytical behaviours. They would be perfect for that.
And often they get caught up in like the boot bog or blood tests
or, you know, the, the, the, the Dutch testing, for example.
And they absolutely loved that, which we more than happy obliged
because it's always good to get more data.
But for the people that are more ignorance is bliss.
I feel like you know that that's that'll go that'll fly over like
their ears and weigh in one out here in one ear and out the
other just simply because they've heard it for 20-30 years
beforehand. Oh, don't eat that.
It's bad for your Type D diabetes.
And yet they still do. That's crazy, man.
Like it's crazy that people can just allow themselves to fall
victim to this belief that hey, it's in my genetics, I'm going
to wind up getting diabetes anyways.
Yeah. And and as soon as you it, it
becomes less impactful when you get it, because if if the sum of
the 10 people that you're around, they've all got type 2
diabetes and then you get it, you don't feel not normal.
You feel like you're part of the.
Crew, which is. Which is less than ideal.
So I, I feel like it's, it's more like, like we call it the,
I call it like ditching the pill culture.
So like if your aunties, your uncles, your own, your, your,
your family members, they're all on Metformin, for example.
And then that now some of the doctors suggested you for you to
have metformin. It's not a big deal because
everyone else around you has it. It's only when that one of those
people die is that's when the trigger, you know, one of those,
one of those two people, the three people that were eating
whatever they wanted to were not super active or active at all
and taking all of these pills now pass away.
That that's where I feel like that's where the moment start
triggering because there's a lot of people passing within the
community because of those factors, because of the
cardiovascular disease that comes, which is at higher risk
anyway. That's when people really,
really start to change. But unfortunately at the moment
it's it's more towards that latter phase as opposed to pre
emptive which is I guess it's prevention is always better than
the cure. What about the like the semi
semiclutide and what Govi and all the like the weight loss
drugs that are running rampant right now in the states are
though? Are those in the conversation at
all? They're not so much.
Do you know what they're very much highly like westernized
topics, New York Bay Area and we do get a lot of people ask about
them or we get somebody at least get people that have like, you
know, I've done the exact done the Ozempic.
But as far as, you know, the conversation that we have, like
I'm having with people, it's, it's not really the, the
priority for them. Like they're, they're still in
that phase of were I guess they're edgy.
They're, they're too educated to know that the, the downfalls are
from nutrition and their activity in that lifestyle, but
to like stubborn to change. So they, they know the Azempic
or whatever they, they term it as like, you know, they still
have, they luckily and still well have it as like a fat, fat
thing as opposed to like more of a type 2 diabetes something.
So I guess we don't really, we don't really actually have that
conversation that much, which is I guess a good thing sometimes.
No, that's a good thing for sure.
It's, it's crazy, man. Like I get so disheartened to
see how quickly people are to turn to a pill or a drug or a
potion try and solve the problem that they've created for
themselves after just decades of doing the wrong thing.
It's like you got a. You got a correct course
internally before any external implications are going to solve
your problems for you. Yeah, I think do you know, we're
speaking before about like kind of how the culture of like being
so restricted to do one thing then make sure outburst in other
areas. I think they there's something
mythical about the health and fitness world for some reason
within the community and and just generally everywhere.
Is that the same rules people don't think that apply, You
know, the, the whole rule of like, you know, there's no magic
bullet for anything. You know, most of them, our
clients went through Med school, they went through, you know,
college, they went, did a law degree and they worked their
arse off for four years or five years.
And yet they're the ones that are still like faddish or more
susceptible to fads, even though the same principles applies for
your law school or training for the bar.
Or you know, that process is what gets you the results of
like showing up every day to a certain task, being consistent
and, and doing the right things over a long enough time horizon
get you the the results that you want to get.
Or sometimes when it when the rest of your life is so
structured and organized, you just want this one to click your
fingers and go away. Yeah, there's there's no
nothing. There's no easy button with
anything. I think the sooner we embrace
that, the the more peace will be.
It's like look it just it does not exist.
Yeah, and we'd be a billionaire if that was the case, right?
For sure. What about like weight training,
cardio, like the physical component of it?
Are they all receptive to that? Do you know a lot?
A lot of the people that we work with are still like anti gym to
a degree. Like there's a large amount of
that had look and it all the reason why it comes like this is
because from a childhood or from a young age, sports is not
really prioritized or exercise not prioritized.
So they still only start the gym really when they do this fitness
thing. So when they're 30 or 28 or even
35. So then I think when most people
start at that age, they go in with their apprehensions of what
this gym is a particular thing for the particular people that
they have a lot of like misconceptions about the gym
itself. So there's a, there's a large
amount of people that do go to the gym or they have access and
they go to these classes or or whatnot, and they're very, very
receptive to doing it. But we had still have a large
amount of our client base that are non gym goers because of
they, they, they, they just simply at the point where they
don't really know what to do, how to do it and don't look
stupid at the age of 35 in a gym by themselves.
So we have to, we have to work a lot of people up from non gym
goers to home gyms to home workouts to then go into the
gym. But that does take a little bit
of a while. But it then, yeah, we have that
both, both ends of the spectrum really.
But I think the biggest commonality between either both
of them is that especially within the Western community,
especially in the US, exercise and training is completely over
utilized. It's like this thing that's
going to solve all problems and equally not done in the right
format. So people will, you know, spend
a lot of lot of money on Orangetheory or Barry's boot
camp to go and get a sweat on because they're quote, UN quote
burning 1000 calories per workout and never used more than
a 4K dumbbell. And then wonder why they're
still not, not changing their no, not changing their physique
or building muscle tissue or, you know, really getting
anything more from it because you know, our body is an
adaptive machine. It will adapt to the stimulus
you give it. So if you've been using those 4K
dumbbells orange theory for the last 12 months, if you know
you're going to be, you're going to be burning less calories or
less, less metabolically adaptated because of it.
No, totally agree, man. I feel like the here in the
states at least, it's like people, there's this
apprehension to working out as well, but it's it's weird
because the people seem to know that, you know, moving your body
is important and healthy, but like the the disparity between
those that love it and those that don't becomes that much
broader. It's like we all know, like we
we know that that is good, but some people are just not
receptive to it for whatever reason.
But it's weird because here like the, the sports side of things
is oftentimes just in our culture, like people hear all
about their sports, they, they grow up and doing sports and
it's like in the public school system to some degree.
So it's like that's always kind of brought on pretty young, but
then people just stop doing it once they graduate from school.
And then like the 30s, forties, 50s, people started getting
their dad bonds and everything because they just stopped doing
it and they're living in their glory days.
So you got to kind of like reacclimate them, but they've
always got some, some basic primitive, you know,
understanding of it from early childhood, it seems.
Yeah, yeah, I have that too. I have a lot of like, you know,
a lot of US clients that are like back in my day when I was
at college, I used to debench this amount or I used to used to
curly the the 35 LB dumbbells or whatever it is.
I think especially more for females is like it's more of a
case of that they, they, I don't see it as exciting as other
forms of exercise. So if I don't know like from
your sporting background, but like, you know, sports and
playing competitive sports and doing more activity like that is
much more exciting sometimes. And lifting weights up and down
for 10 reps three sets. And I think most people want to
be excited by the gym as opposed to fulfilled by the gym.
Like fulfilling is, you know, increasing your numbers week on
week and seen that progression progression.
But most people see it as more of an exciting thing about his
boot camp and Orange theory were you are getting entertained for
an hour at the same time. And unless you take that avid
interest as imagine you doing your preps, were you like, I've
got to beat my log book. I've got to make the
progression. I've got to see these changes.
I've got to, you know, make sure that my elbows go in the right
position because my if I don't, I don't activate my chest
properly. That type of level of interest
normally leads to curiosity. Curiosity normally leads to, you
know, some level of like development in that area,
whereas I just don't think most people have a level of curiosity
and level of like interested in the finer details of, you know,
you're, you're lifting weights because it's much like running a
feeling like most people believe that they can run, but not
everyone should run. So they believe that they can
put the foot in front of the other.
So they do it, but they don't take an interest in the
technique, the pacing, you know, your your gels during it to keep
hydrated and, and keep fed. So I think they're most people
just don't have a a level of interest that's required to make
it exciting or make it fulfilling.
Yeah. And I totally can see that being
the case. And for me like like I am a
bodybuilder, so I'm certainly not the majority.
But if I was to look at weight training from the masses
perspective, like I would, I would assume that I would look
at training as just simply the, the, the lowest hanging fruit to
provide the best outcome from a longevity standpoint.
Like weight training, you know, consuming ample nutrition is
like the single easiest and best thing you can do to ensure that
you live a, you know, healthy, vibrant life as you age.
Because like when you look at people that are aging well and
those that are aging poorly, it's like it, I mean, it's, it's
very apparent who put in the work and who didn't throughout
their lifetime. But if you, you know, weight
train, even if it's just like 30 minutes three times a week, like
what that does for you compounded over time, like once
you crush that like 67, 7080 year old mark and you've built
your body over, you know, decades like that is going to
make sure that you aren't falling downstairs breaking all
your hips and bones and, you know, rapidly declining in your
later years. Yeah. 100% I mean my my like I
said, my background was in rehabilitation.
One of my first ever like kind of work experiences was that an
oldly, oldly person's like home and the the people that
recovered from like femur fractures or neck of femur
fractures better. We're always the people that
said that they were, you know, active.
They go to the shop every day, but it's one of the biggest
things like can they raise their leg to the next step, step up?
And even people will, you know, most people in the 70s or 80s
were too weak to even do that. And so they had a high risk of
falls. And from the research, we know
like higher risk of falls leads to higher risk of mortality too,
because once you fall over, once you break a bone, then you go
through that whole process and it's less likely that you're
going to come out of the other side in a positive format.
So most people don't see those those later years until again,
someone else goes through that or you're going through that.
So it's a wish, you know, everyone was just weight
training three times a week, knowing the progressive nature
of it. And most people, a lot of
everybody, would be much better off because of it.
Yeah, I mean, think about it like like insurance, like if
you're, you know, older in years and you're and you know, I don't
know, 1000 bucks a month premium for your health insurance,
banking on it coming in at some point when you have some
ailment. Like if you can accomplish, you
know, roughly the same thing or obviously much better than the
same thing by just simply weight training 30 minutes three times
a week to prevent the need for that insurance in the 1st place.
Like that training becomes the more efficacious insurance.
I feel like if people took that approach psychologically it
would make the, you know, apparent non excitement of the
gym still worth it if that makes sense.
Yeah, for sure. And I think it takes those
actual those conversations with the insurance company to make it
really viable. A lot of a lot of people do come
to us and say, hey, my insurance's premium is going up
because my weight's been up 20 lbs and they won't insure me
unless I go into the next bracket.
So I'm not going to do that. So let me lose my next 20 lbs.
Yeah, financial incentive is quite the incentive for sure.
If you can like make a tangible like that, people tend to be,
they perk up quite a bit faster. Oh yeah, like everyone loves a
return on investment. So if you can, if you can
correlate your own fitness goals with some type of IROI, they
normally get on board very, very quickly.
That's why I think business owners and entrepreneurs when
they, when they can see that their fitness endeavours, I
don't know if you might have seen it the other day, but I
don't know who it was. But they, they, they, they did
like a plotting graph of like CEO earnings and business growth
and the relative levels of deadlifts that CEO's and
entrepreneurs could, could deadlift.
And they did, they cross pollinated.
And he said that the more that someone deadlifted, the more
that they earn in their career and the better the business did.
So people should be looking at that graph going, OK, well maybe
I should deadlift and work out when, when you can see that your
business improves because your fitness improves, then a lot of
people do buy into that hard. No, that makes total sense, man.
Like I, I'm, I'm 100% a big believer in that.
Like if you get your fitness, nutrition dialed in, then
everything else in your life will flourish and stem from it
for sure. I mean, that's like the, the
temple that you exist in. Like that is, that is the base.
Because if you look at everything else in your life, if
all of that is dialed in, but you have no health, you've lost
your mind, you've got the Alzheimer's dementia and you,
you know, you, you can't even, you can't even move.
Then then that's all for not like you have to have the basic
fundamentals. Absolutely.
The the you've got to, you've got to live in this, in this
body forever, right? So.
Yeah. It's going nowhere.
Well, Nathan, what else you get cooking, man?
What are you working on? What are you excited about?
What's the future hole for the training like?
How's how's the future looking? Yeah.
And I mean we've, we've really grown in the last year.
So for us, it's, it's actually more about getting more, some
community basis here. So we're, I'm launching, I'm
launching a school community. I've launched it last week for
our clients, but we're, we're launching it in the next couple
of weeks for anyone that wants to join, who's South Asian, who
wants to understand a little bit more about their genetics.
And I've gone into the, the science of, you know, the, the
cardiovascular diseases, why it's more prevalent, what you
can do about it. So really excited to see how
that education piece does because a lot of people who
even, you know, are South Asian, who are trainers don't express
the, the differences and needs to, to change.
So that'd be really, really exciting.
And outside of that, it's just keep on doing what we're doing.
You know, we've been doing it for four or five years now and
it'll be, you know, another five years and, and helping more,
more people. I love it, man, I love it.
What's awesome to see, you know, people from all different walks
of life, all different cultural backgrounds, getting taught the
right message to just move them closer to health.
Because like you get so stuck in your information silo your, your
own, you know, little circle. And it's like, this is a far
reaching problem where as a species, obviously not getting
much healthier. Like we're on the decline.
So the more people preaching the good message about getting
healthier, eating the right foods, eating the right amount
of the right foods, and being more active and moving more like
I'm 100% on on board with you man.
Absolutely appreciate it and you're doing some good but
yourself. Appreciate it man.
Where do people go to find out more about you and that school
program? What's the link to that?
So I would just go to my Instagram at Nathan dot autonomy
and if you want to get on the school stuff, it'll be on my bio
at that point. And if not, then just just drop
us Adm and we'll, we'll, we'll add you to the group.
Awesome, man. Well, I'll definitely get to
that. Make it easy people to find you.
There's everything I can do for you, man.
You just let me know. Appreciate it dude.
I really, really appreciate it. You bet.
See you, Nathan. Cheers dude.
Thank you.