Well, hello ladies and gents Robert Sykes keto, Savage.com.
And today, I've got special, guest and good friend, Kim
Howard's on the line, her and her co-author Ken Berry who's
also my good friend recently published a book called Common
Sense Labs blood Labs at demystified.
So we dive into that. What that writing process
entailed, what they learned throughout that process, just
some common questions around lipids, LDL cholesterol, HDL.
Triglycerides. We talk thyroids a little bit.
We talked hormone panel. We dove into To another one of
her new books which is a cookbook, a recipe book.
So we just had a great conversation Kim like says a
great friend of mine. Always a pleasure catching up
with her seeing what she's got cooking literally and
figuratively there. So yeah, got a lot of respect
for Kim. Got a lot of spec for what she's
doing and it was a great conversation that I have no
doubt that you will take something from especially as it
relates to your interest in knowing your Labs.
So without further Ado, sit back relax.
Enjoy the conversation with Kim Howerton We are live Kim,
Howerton, how are you? Hello, I am good.
I hope that you didn't just hear me taking nice, slurping my
coffee as more than interim. It's one of my God, tell people,
I'm gonna start the intro. Give me one second and then I
hit play on Zoom. Then I hit play on my mixer and
then usually that's when they get their drinking water.
But then I just Dive Right into my apologies.
My apology. No, no, I was like well, that
was not the smartest of me anyway.
Right? So we have not, we haven't seen
each other in a while. When was the last time we saw
each other? It was it at Ken's conference.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's right. Kennedy shares the common sense
lab know what. Hello?
What was it called? Proper.
Proper human Summit. Yes.
And that was in everything is through words August.
Yeah. September September Timber, one
of the chamber. Yeah, yeah.
But then the holiday season said in and everything's been You
think since then? Yes.
Yes, yes, yes. So I have always held you in
very high regard. I feel like we always have the
conversations whenever we are in the same vicinity.
We all just kind of connect and I don't want it turns into a
great conversation. I feel like especially when Ken
and Lisa there, you're there Nurse Indies, there.
It always just works really, really well from a
conversational standpoint. Yeah, it's super interesting.
I think we're fine crew and we're so like generationally
diverse. Yeah.
Although I will say, I feel like I've been having a little bit of
fomo here lately because I haven't seen you or can in quite
some time. I guess since his conference and
here you are putting out, you know, books with kin.
And I didn't even know this but you put out a book with Nisha
to. So y'all just doing all kinds of
awesome work and I'm just off in la-la land.
Yeah. Well I mean, you and I need to
collab on something about working out because I have to
say it's it's Was my goal to be better working out last year and
I definitely made improvements and so my goal is also to
improved from last year for this year and it's an area.
I'm totally not. It's not my comfort zone the
working out thing but it's definitely something I found
really important item. I that we're about to start the
podcast and you said, all right I'm leaving the gym now so that
that is at least a step in the right.
Direction. You were.
I went today anyway. Hey that's good.
That's better than not going at. All right.
But you know I'm a middle-aged lady and I it's just come home
to me. So significantly that if I want
to be a healthy old person there's just no other option.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think I don't know it's tough.
Like for me, I feel very blessed because I started working out
and it became like a hat. Early early on.
And a lot of people start working at in high school and
they just, you know, stop like they relive their Glory Days of
high school football and that's just kind of where they're stuck
and they like get the beer belly and then it's all downhill from
there. I feel very fortunate and then I
haven't really ever stopped. Like it's just been compounding
since I started. But for somebody, that has just
started working out and trying to make it a lifestyle in their
40s 50s 60s like that is exponentially harder.
So, for those people, I mean hats off to you because you're
just doing something that's incredibly impressive in my
book. Well I appreciate that.
I mean you know like investing right?
When's the best time to start 20 years ago once the second best
time start today. Yeah and you know my my I'm I'm
of an age where I have aging parents.
I mean I guess we all have aging parents, right?
Everybody's a everybody's aging but they're getting into that
age range, where things start to really break down mmm.
And they're in, they've been in excellent health and my dad
actually still works out several times a week.
He's almost 80. So he's, he's a really good
example of somebody who's just, like, he's not a bodybuilder but
you know, he's like just kept up with being functional and my mom
who I take after much more on a personality level doesn't real.
She was an athlete if the kid, but she doesn't really love to
work out. She likes to win, which is why
she was an athlete as a kid. But she doesn't really like the
the process of the exercise. And so, seeing her struggle.
So much, as she's about to be 80, I'm like, whoa.
Oh, like this, this this Ishq goes off the rails, quick, and
being able to do things like just like cross the street
without tripping or picking something up without hurting
yourself. Like like it goes to the real
basic stuff and Yeah, so that's why that's like, why I'm on a
mission to really change this Paradigm in my own life and
hopefully be inspirational for other people who are like me and
her, you know, naturally more accustomed to lie down than
lift, anything heavy. Well, I think seeing, you know,
your parents go through it for everybody.
Really brings things top of mind.
I mean, I like like my dad, both, my folks are 61 and my
dad. Has never really worked.
I don't even think you know, what is when those are the bicep
curl is but he's always been Super Active like on the farm
like he you know, hopping up on Hay.
Bales climbing up, a frequent battle.
Yeah, farmer work at climbing up on a wall to hammer in boards,
like chainsaw and heavy treat like all kinds of stuff that is
very physically demanding and I don't really worry about his
health at all. My mom is also been very
Physically Active like riding horses and she used to do
aerobics when she was younger. But like she just had two recent
surgeries one was on her knee and one was on her hip and hip
Sarge was a couple weeks ago and she's just lost a ton of muscle
throughout that. Yes and she's like I've got her
doing keto so she's lost a lot of body fat so she's doing Quito
she just doesn't eat enough and I always harping on her she
knows that she needs to eat more like I was over there for
Christmas just the other day and I had to run through a typical
day of what she's consuming and it's like okay you're consuming
50 grams of protein, Maybe. You 114 pounds, you need to be
at least, 800 grams of protein, because that, you know, demand
increases as you age to. And you need to be using your
body need to be using your arms, your upper body and like, she's
like, I just want to ride horses again.
And that's a great workout in and of itself and I agree, but
it's like you got to do other things.
In addition, to just the lifestyle scepter really kind
of, keep the needle moving and your favorable Direction.
Yeah, absolutely. I think there is a real epidemic
of especially older women way under Eating protein and just
way under eating in general. And so I totally and same thing
with my mom, right? She had a hip replacement
surgery, two years ago and had complications.
This was not what we were going to talk about.
But anyway, and had complications.
And then God, what's that? Horrible nerve condition.
It's like shingles. Yeah, like right afterwards on
her leg. So she was not Not very mobile
for a while because it just hurt to move her leg and I just saw
like just enormous degradation of any muscle mass.
And, you know, I was listening to a talk by Doug patent Jones.
Are you familiar with him? That name?
Sounds only for me but I do not know.
He's, he passed away like a couple of years ago.
Sadly, but he's a researcher in a Jang, protein and muscle.
And he did a study on the effects of bed, rest at
different phases, of someone's life.
And what was super interesting is like complete bed.
Rest in a younger person. There's definitely some muscle
loss, but it's not super extreme.
But in an older person like 60, 70 80, it's extreme.
It's like, I mean, if I quoted numbers, By just making them up,
but like, the graph was like, at least double it was a lot more
accelerated muscle loss. And then they were like, well,
we think would millage people be kind of splitting the
difference. No.
Middle-aged people actually looked almost identical to
elderly people, and so you lose muscle real fast once you're at,
once you're out of your like Prime hormone years, if you're
not active, you can lose muscle real quick.
Yeah. And what's crazy is you can
Preserve Muscle relatively easy compared to what it took to
build the muscle initially, like, if you like it, it's very
hard to build muscle. But then, as you build that
muscle, once it's there, it's pretty easy to preserve it as
long as you stimulated and you're eating, you know, a
calories, a protein, a nutrition.
And I think the biggest confounding variable is that as
people age, I just stopped doing as much.
They stop eating as much and they just everything just
degrades rapidly. Yeah, but if you just simply eat
enough and use that tissue, you don't have to be trying to go
for pay ours but just like using it you'll preserve that muscle
pretty easily. Yeah.
Like the bar for just not wasting your muscle is much
lower than people think it's like but you know being like
almost completely sedentary only getting up to shuffle around
your house. Well that's not going to be
enough but yeah. Anyway, it was just an
interesting thing that I've been looking into and Not why we're
going to talk today, but you're always we always get off on a
tangent. I'm I'm like ADHD girl, I'm very
hard to keep on track. No, I like all right.
So one of the reasons we were going to talk today is because
you just recently published a book in cahoots with Ken Berry
called Common Sense Lambs blood Labs demystified.
I've got it here in front of me everybody.
And I've actually got a printout of all of my lipid panels, all
of my hormone panels and I expect you to walk me through
and tell me exactly what you reckon.
Totally. Yeah.
People do they reach out and they're like can I pay you for a
session? And I'm like, please I don't
don't don't send me your money because I all I would be saying
is turn to page 12. Yeah, and so this book was
written so that people could actually compare their own Labs
with the things in the book. So it's definitely a self-help
guide. Yeah.
And I think it's, I mean, it's not intimidating book at all,
like, it's like I've got a copy in my hand.
It now and it is not a huge book.
There's lots of pictures, there's Big Font, like I like
it. Like people can pick this up,
its color coordinated. It's not like a book of like, oh
my gosh, I gotta like, put this on my schedule to chip away at
every single day. It's like, you could totally
just flipped whatever page is relevant to, whatever marker
you're trying to study up on, and it's boom right there in
front of you. Yeah, I mean, we made a
conscious choice to be like, it's sort of like a primer for
adults, right? You know, if you remember those
Is like, workbooks, you had, when you were a kid in school.
I'm kind of along those lines. It's not meant to give you a PhD
equivalent understanding. It's meant to say, like, here's
the basics of what everybody should know about their labs and
then starting sort of towards the back of the book.
There's just charts where you can pull out your Labs about any
topic that you got here. And then just look, What the
standard range is versus the optimal range.
Where do I fall? And what might that mean?
You know, what's the follow-up, step?
I'm curious when you're writing when you were writing this book
when Yuan camera sitting down to do the research on this book,
what did that workflow? Look like like where you just
getting inundated with questions around, you know, specific
topics of like lipid panels on the ketogenic diet and then I
okay we need to read a book on this.
What does the current research show?
Is that research relevant to people that are following a
low-carb diet. Like how did that?
Pan out. Well I mean a lot of it grew out
of the questions that can bury, my co-author gets on his lives
and from his members and his membership, you know, and and
over and over and over again. People would send us their blood
work me included because I talk about health in general and say
like, is this okay, is this good?
What does this mean and we'd have to respond you know, we're
not your doctor we can't respond personally.
About these things. Unless he was actually he could
actually if he was your doctor but he I'm no one stopped.
ER, yeah. And he's not an intern, you
know, he's not your doctor unless he's officially and even
though you feel everyone feels like he is their doctor, he's in
fish. There is no official,
doctor-patient relationship established.
And so, you know, but he gets all these questions and what
super interesting going into this was their sort of two
problems we see. See, overall, the first is that
there are a lot of people out there in or a lot of doctors out
there and mainstream's medical communities who under order.
And we talked about this in the book.
But, you know, they're like, you know, we'll get you a basic
lipid panel and a CBC and CMP or, you know, BMV, you know,
we'll get you the basic stuff. That's everything you need.
And there are a lot of tests left off those Is that these
annual physical? Numbers might run like c-peptide
like fasting insulin, many others, but those are sort of
two of the most common left off most mainstream doctors ordered
charts and they apply a, especially strongly in the keto
and low carb. You know, this book is not only
for that Community, but obviously we sort of have a
leaning towards that Community because people in that
Community, but we so we want to make sure those people are taken
care of, but you could give this book look to your cousin who is
not keto or low carb and it would still apply, but there are
a lot of tests that aren't being run, that should be run.
And then on the other side and this was interesting feedback,
we were getting. And when the book first came out
there were people coming to us and saying, hey, your book
doesn't suggest like all of these other tests that my
functional doctor is, Telling me I should be getting.
And first of all, we say if you're working one-on-one with
the doctor you should listen to your doctor because this is a
general book not a specific book, right?
But at the same time, when I would dive in with those people,
a little deeper, there are a lot of doctors out there or not
necessarily MD's but they call themselves alternative medical
practitioners and things who Are in business, to run a lot of
tests because the more tests you run, the more problems you might
find. And if you can find a test that
you can scare someone with, you can sell them things and so we
were kind of in the middle, right?
We're saying, hey like there are a lot of tests that you're not
getting that you should. But we're also saying, hey,
there are a lot of tests that are probably unnecessary unless
you have specific issues that a lot of people are using to.
Sell supplement packages or things like that, and we wanted
to say, let's let's get a stain. Middle Ground.
How do I just check into my health every year and confirm
that? I am a healthy individual from a
blood lapse perspective? No, I think that is very much so
needed in the space. Actually just had a ride rules
appointment with his doctor was the other day and I was talking
to the doctor about getting some blood drawn, because I'm going
to start my prep soon and I tried Always do a lab panel
done, you know, thinking of the prep halfway through ideally and
then again at the end and I was asking him, you know, if I can
get a thumb, if I've got any holes in here because you might
point something out that I didn't ask, for I ordered a
comprehensive lipid panel with particle size.
I ordered a thyroid panel, I ordered with T3, T4 and reverse
T3, and I ordered a comprehensive hormone panel for
total Test free tests, Sex hormone-binding globulin, and
estradiol and estrogen, I believe, and then a see reactive
protein, is there anything that just jumps out not that I'm
trying to viroid panel where those total T4 and T3, or free
T4 and T3. I probably just said t-33, I
don't know if you, I'm assuming him being the doctor would
probably just a faulty total instead of free to tell.
Right? I would suggest getting free T3
and free T4. Yeah, that makes sense.
It's games, you can understand. So tyroid is found in both bound
and Unbound forms. So total is all the thyroid the,
you know, hormone and then it's separated into the stuff you can
use and the stuff you can't use the free stuff is the stuff
that's available for use and so you really want to focus on
knowing how much of that you got.
Got you basically the same concept is total testosterone
versus free testosterone. Yeah, yeah.
Almost all of these hormones are Carried about in a bound form
and so there's always almost always bound and free and there
are sometimes in specific cases. You need to know total, but a
lot of times you need to know the free any glaring holes in
that panel. I mean I don't imagine you have
high fasting insulin or c-peptide given your lifestyle
and your body fat percentage. So I to I don't know, those are
going to be necessary. I mean they might be interesting
from a curiosity. Perspective, but usually not
always, but usually when someone is low carb, very lean very
active, they're going to have low insulin.
It's just, it would be, there would be something going wrong
if you didn't. But I mean all of that sounds
pretty good. The the book I will say, just
does a basic lipid panel, not because a basic lipid panel.
Is all anyone would ever need it's Because cholesterol numbers
lipids, get so complex. That there are often people that
go into the minutiae of lipids, that might not need to write.
If we know that you have, I'm not not you, but a person in the
world, right? Has extensive severe or even
moderate metabolic, dysfunction, you know?
Only into the minutiae of your lipids might be less beneficial
than, you know, tackling the metabolic syndrome or the
insulin resistance varies significantly.
But there can be interesting things in the lipids and so in
the book we recommend like ways to go further but it's not and I
it's I'm glad I have this opportunity to clarify because
some people don't expect this. This book is not a A deep dive
specifically into lipids that we recommend some resources for
speaking of lipids and I don't want to go beyond the scope of
the book, Banning M. Sure.
But when it comes to lipids, do you feel like that is something
that we are as a medical community as a, as a health
space coming to more or less agreements on?
Or is that something that just continually deepen into dispute?
It's in dispute. I mean, I'm gonna Say like, you
know, if you still talk to mainstream, you know, non low
carb medical providers. There is not a lot of agreement
that, you know, maybe lbl high LDL isn't the worst thing in the
whole world. And so, I don't, I don't know.
I mean, I think one of the things that we, I try really
hard to fight against in myself, is silo ISM, right?
Like only talking to people that are gree with Me.
So, you know, the if the more, if I only spent time with
certain types of people, I be like, I feel like this subject
is really closed. I don't think anyone debates
this anymore, but you see reality is my circle has become
so small that I don't talk to anybody.
That doesn't think exactly like me.
And so I try to avoid that. Yeah.
And so I certainly think there's a lot of people out there who
are not on. Team LDL, doesn't matter and at
the same time, I think there are more people.
Going to discuss the nuance and I think that if you actually
look at the research and, you know, true risk calculators,
it's not, it shouldn't be highly debated.
That there's a lot more that matters than just a simple LDL
number. And so, I think that if you talk
to people that are Very smart and conscientious and you know
you will find people in the mainstream non, you know, Peter
Community. Who who would agree that it's a
debated topic, not a settled science because I feel like I'm
in the same page. Like I tried to intentionally
seek out information from other sources that are not Silent.
Not within my quote, unquote, Echo chamber, I could try to
break free of this Echo chamber mentality.
I was listening to a podcast with Peter T of the other day.
Yeah, yeah, I like Peter a lot. Yeah, I did too.
I think is an incredibly bright guy.
He's in the ketogenic that I feel like he's definitely
well-versed and lot of the benefits of he do but he is
definitely on the page of LDL is a, is a, you know, pretty
correlative proxy for cardiovascular disease, and
risk. And I think he like, I don't
think he's ever said anything contrary to that, and I think
most of the studies do Indicate that to be the case.
However, most of the studies can correct me if I'm wrong on.
This are all done or at least mostly done in participants who
are not following a low-carb, ketogenic diet.
So, it's LDL and proximity or LDL in tandem to majority of
calories coming from dietary carbohydrates, correct.
Correct. I mean, that's my understanding
as well. I'm not lipids expert.
We need our friend, Dave, Feldman for that, one, or
Siobhan Huggins, but you know, The majority of the population
of the world is not on a ketogenic diet.
The the data on LDL versus cardiac disease, risk is done in
the general population. I believe some work on studies
is started has started to be done in the ketogenic Community
but it's not robust and certainly it's going to take a
lot of time. You know.
Will you ever get a heart attack?
You can't answer that question in.
In a year study, right? And so there does seem to be
some more research coming up. I know Dave's work day.
Feldman is working on that fairly significantly in his
life, but yeah, I think, you know, if I listen to, I listened
to Peter atilla's podcast and he definitely, I think, I think
it's him that says LDL is Necessary, but not sufficient,
right? Is that him that says that, that
like high LDL would show an issue or high enough LDL can can
can cause a potential problem, but in and of itself does not
cause a problem. And so, you know, I kind of look
at that to say, you know, we look at like Risk calculators
for because there are these things called risk calculators,
where they've developed them, where you put In a bunch of
stuff, you put in your LDL, your HDL, your triglycerides, your
weight, your height, your body, like a bunch of Health marker
stuff, and it turns out that your risk score which is how
much are you at risk of a cardiac event is very, very
influenced even on these mainstream calculators by
insulin resistance weight, lifestyle choices, right?
So even And when you delve into these other ways of looking at
it, I think, I think any Doctor Who's only looking at LDL or
total cholesterol is being very short-sighted and kind of lazy.
Yeah, I agree. I think it's a fair fair
statement for sure. And I feel like a lot of people,
I don't know. I feel like a lot of these
quote-unquote reference ranges for ideal ideal Spectrum, for
Cholesterol for instances. Like you said, all based off of
a relatively sick population to begin with.
So that is obviously skewing things and I feel like I don't
think there are certainly people out there especially in the keto
low-carb space. That think that all Healthcare
professionals doctors mainstream Western medicine or just out
there in this big conspiracy theory and everybody's just
trying to get more money. I do not agree with that
perspective. I don't need it, I don't either.
I mean I'm man was in the health care like I do not fall under
that Spectrum. However I do think there is
Certainly a lot that is pushed from a narrative standpoint.
That is a very it becomes a very large ship that is not very
nimble like it's very slow to maneuver and adjust things and
with that said and with just the way things have been for the
past, you know, 50 plus years and just the narrative that has
been in place, doctors are often times quick to prescribe statins
based off of a cholesterol. Number that may not in fact be a
dangerous Des number, especially, if that individual
is following a ketogenic low-carbohydrate diet, we think
that's fair statement. I would say that, I think
doctors are generally overworked.
They are generally don't have enough time to spend with each
patient, which is part of the reason we wrote This Book Is
they don't have time to go through and say, okay, this is
what this is and this is what that is.
And this is why I'm ordering that.
And if they had time, I believe, most doctors would like to
explain it to you. They don't they don't they On a
schedule, they have a certain number of patients.
They're required to see over the course of the day and easy
solutions and easy answers are going to be of benefit to
somebody who's always in a rush. Yeah.
And so I think that can influence their thinking as
well. Right.
It's like, well, if I'm always in a rush and it might be
something complicated, but it could also be something easy.
Let's go for the easy option where I can remove In just
prescribe something and I'd it's not that I think they're lazy or
trying to get away with something.
Literally, they're trying to do the best they can with what
they've got and that's what they've got.
Yeah totally totally agree. And then often times take the
takes the form of a Statin in the, in the shape of, you know,
trying to help ones cholesterol numbers.
Based on the quote, unquote reference ranges right and where
as you know, if you came in with to your doctor's office, With
high cholesterol and you were. You know, not maybe not like
maybe just like an average human.
You weren't overweight you weren't under way.
You were just sort of an you couldn't tell by looking at the
person, you know, if they had any like do they exercise, do
they not what's going on? Now, I think for that doctor to
make a truly informed decision around.
You know what course of treatment or is any treatment
actually necessary, they have to sit down with that patient and
say. All right, let's talk about your
Diet, let's talk about your exercise.
Let's talk about your sleep. Are you under a lot of stress?
Like, you got to look at all of these different variables, to
paint a picture of their health and to really evaluate, you
know, what is of concern. And, and I'll also mention, you
know, there are health issues like hypothyroidism that some
people can have without huge, like, you might not know.
Visible, right? If I like a rash, and if you
have a thyroid problems, it can alter your cholesterol numbers,
right? So there can be all different
things going on, and if that doctor can't have this larger
lifestyle discussion with you, their options about what to do
are limited and they're in a paradigm where they've been
taught that cholesterol above a certain number is dangerous and
if they had time to sit down with you and And talk to you and
get an idea of what was going on in your lifestyle.
And the fact that yeah, your cholesterol went up a little
bit, which not, everyone does. By the way I don't have
especially high cholesterol and a lot of people on keto don't
but you know, if it went up but you're like, wow.
But like, in every other marker, I'm so much healthier.
The nuanced discussion even if that doctor still wanted your
cholesterol to come down, would be like, okay, well, what could
we alter in your lifestyle that might bring that number down,
that Violate the principles that you live by that work for you.
I like I remember Dominic D'Agostino somebody, I really
admire in the Kia Community. He had higher LDL at one point,
then he was comfortable with. And so he found when here, I
think it was Dairy when he reduced Dairy and replace.
Oh, he didn't like lower-fat he just changed the types and
sources of fat and He is LDL came down, right?
That wasn't taking a Statin that was making some shifts within
his food choices while still living a ketogenic diet and then
other people don't find that Dairy influences that so it can
vary. But that is very nuanced,
time-consuming treatment. Yeah, I think he also does quite
a bit of monounsaturated fats like olive oil.
He does well. If he switched out.
So he switched out because dairy fat is very high in saturated
fat and it is true that for some people they are very sensitive
to saturated fat. Raising their LDL.
I don't think people realize how strong Dominic D'Agostino really
is like it is oh man. Yeah I mean I don't believe
impressive like he was doing 405 on incline.
Bench press the other day. I'm just like dude you are
freaking animal and I'm like struggling with the bar.
Okay, but like it's crazy because he's incredibly
brilliant people know him for his you know, his research.
Yeah. But I mean just simply from a
strength standpoint like you got to respect what he's able to do.
Totally, I mean, and to your point earlier, he people asking
me know how much he works out now and he works.
He still works out. He has a gym at his farm but he
said he doesn't spend as anywhere near as much time in
the gym since he bought a farm. Yeah.
Like your dad you know he does all this farm work and lifting
bales of hay and things like that is so you can definitely
Get get ripped and stay ripped. Just buy a farm 100%.
Yeah, absolutely yeah. So, yeah, I mean, he's a good
example. Like I think there are a lot of
people in the keto. There's a spectrum of opinions
in the keto Community. You know, some people are like
LDL is never a problem, you know, I move got like what?
Paul saladino, it wasn't as LDL like 700, you know, 25 for sure.
Like this, this is it was at least five.
It was like, Really super high. I was like I didn't know went
that high and and you know, no this is not a problem at all and
then you've got people kind of on the further the other end of
the spectrum where I like, well it might be a problem but it's
one of many variables and so there's there's a variety of
opinions, there's not just one settled opinion and I think we
all have to find what makes the most sense for us and where we
draw our line. And we're we're comfortable.
I could probably turn the page in the book, but do you Top your
head, know what the reference range for LDL is by chance.
So the, so that's an interesting one.
And by the way, interestingly enough we don't have.
So, in the book, we have optimal and, and reference range.
Reference range just means what the lab says is the average
range. Where's that one?
Hey, there's a page right now. I'm sorry, what the page in the
book of mine turned to it right now, what?
About a bad LDL. Yeah.
So if you want the shortcut of the, just the lab numbers,
that's on page 62. And so there's a, there's a part
of the book earlier, which is on page 23, that has words and
things that explain, whereas on page 62.
It's just the numbers and it's the quick.
Reference range. So, for a lot of things, their
standard and optimal in the reference range, but for we put
under LDL for optimal range. It's complicated.
But the standard range, these days of LDL is 0 to 99.
That's what it says on the LabCorp website and The issue
there is it's not always been quite that low it's shifted over
time there was a time in the past where they thought having a
slightly higher LDL than that was fine.
And if you do research historically, you know a lot of
Having LDL up more in in the hundreds rather than under 100.
Seems to be protective of older people because it would appear.
That LDL is somewhat. It's a little bit complicated
about like, is it itself protective or is it called upon
when you need protection? But can be a good hedge as your
aging against infection. People with higher LDL seem to
be less likely to die of infection as their older, which
is a Higher risk when you're older.
So there are certain very interesting studies where heart
disease should not be alright. It is a big concern but it's not
the only thing people die of and so and not everyone with high
LDL dies of heart disease and so you have to kind of look at I
think all the variables. Yeah, I think that's super
important. I feel like it's crazy how how
much you can and I think they felt was done really good job
illustrating this how much you can impact your lip and panels.
By just some you know actions that they Pride leading up to
that blood that blood draw. I know when I'm not competition
prep and I'm an extreme deficit. My lip and markers are
significantly different than what they are when I'm in a
surplus and I think people just need to realize that like people
that are not tracking their intake, not working out, just
not really in tune with their body.
They don't know why their numbers are the way they are,
but if you're tracking on a somewhat regular basis, nothing
you have to be a slave to obey means but track on.
A regular basis knowing if you're in a surplus, knowing if
you're in a deficit trying to get a, you know, lipid panel
done in each phase so to speak and you see how those different
things impact the numbers. It's pretty.
Pretty eye-opening. Yeah.
And then there are just like some genetic things that you
just have to know. Like, I genetically have crazy
high HDL. I just people, I have the kind
of HDL that people are like, how did you do that?
And I'm like, I was born in the right family.
What's your age do it? 97 that's pretty good.
I think I got mine drawn up here to do you use heads up.
Health are not yet, has upheld the track, all the stuff I don't
but I think they're great. I just have I just don't but I
but I think they're fat it's a fabulous service.
Ya know so I didn't catch you after 98?
Yeah well it's been anywhere from 94 to 98 when I get tested
every time it's Tina one point different like that.
So somewhere in there Is there a specific point?
I don't put your clothes too high and I don't want to put you
on the spot here. I don't want removed.
We can go ahead and put our little disclaimer.
You're not a doctor. You didn't play well no, I'm not
a doctor and I cannot give medical advice.
I'm a little bit safer in that I can't give medical advice.
So listen to me at your own risk, but is there a?
But there is a debate. So some people will say there is
no point at which HDL is too high.
There is so I don't believe anyone thinks HDL in, I
shouldn't say anybody. The majority of people don't
seem to think that age High HDL, a man of itself is a problem.
There are certain circumstances, however, where you might see
artificially High HDL, due to other problems happening.
So, if someone has Sky High HDL, you kind of want to look at,
well, you want to work with a good doctor but you want to
leave They probably are going to look at like, you know, does
this person have good? Like, are they an overeater
right? Some of these numbers can.
Like, you were just saying, like, can be accelerated if
you're just in that overeating, right?
And and so, there are some people that might say that, if
you are in a more toxic state, which is a very loaded term, but
literally, like a state of fat toxicity.
Too much body fat, things like that, that can that can play in,
but the general consensus is HDL, is not something you worry
about being high. Unless one of the circumstances
that are coming about, like, like, you have gut issues, you
are chronically overeating, you're forcing a lot of fat that
your body is not accepting. Well, those Those, those are
some possible issues. Yeah, I've always tend to just
kind of focus a bit on the ratio, like my HDL.
My last test was not, it was like back in 2020.
So it's been a while and I had a 138 HDL, so pretty over pretty
high HDL. Yeah, and my LDL was see here.
It was high as well. It was 192 in my trigger 79, so
the ratio was good though. Right?
And, and I was, I was, I was not sure what your said, you might
say, your LDL was not that, that high, a common profile that
Dave, Feldman sees, is something called a lean mass hyper
responder. And I don't remember the exact
cutoff points of that, but it's people who are on a ketogenic
diet or very lean and they tend to be very athletic, not always
but they often are working. Quite a bit, they will have both
high LDL and high HDL. Your HDL definitely is very high
fitting in that category. Your LDL is a bit high sitting
in that category, but sometimes I see people with HDL, like
yours, but they're like, LDL is like 300, but I believe your
numbers, definitely qualify you for that category of lean mass
hyper responder. And there's a lot of study being
gone. Going into these people to look
at. You know, why are these numbers
the way that they are? And it looks like from Dave's
research that there are very Niche group of very athletic
lean, super lean people that that that end up with these
numbers and they're a bit different than what those kinds
of numbers might mean in a not super lean athletic individual.
Yeah, I think the In take home, is it just is so much nuanced
and I feel like anybody that just you know, puts people in a
box and say okay you're within this range, you need ex-drug or
this lifestyle intervention is just totally missing the force
of the trees. Like you have to look at it from
a new on standpoint, have to look at the individual and
there's so much more to it than just grouping people in big
boxes, right? And I would imagine, and this is
probably why you're getting this blood work done.
Right. Is now.
And then later is your, are you starting on a vulgar?
Or a cut. So I'm going to building phase.
Now I'm going to W. My last prep was in 2020 back
when I got this this last panel. So I'm going to do another panel
prior to my cut, which will start in April.
So anytime between now and April, I get a panel done and
then I'll do one about halfway through.
And then again at the the conclusion of the prep, okay?
The hormone panel has changed drastically drastically, right?
But you know, as I mentioned earlier that thyroid hormone
effects cholesterol hormone So you know these all these
hormones, pull on each other, they're all attached, and so and
then sex hormone-binding globulin, you know where you are
with that if it's a binder, right?
So it's going to affect the free amount of certain hormones.
So like you've got, you've got so many moving parts and whether
you're in a surplus like you are in a build phase or in a deficit
like you are in a cot or an extreme deficit like you are Are
towards the end of your cut. Probably.
Hopefully not. But if you know, maybe and
though that's all going to significantly impact.
What your, what Your lipids might do.
Yeah, yeah. That that's so, so important.
I feel like a lot of people, I think one of the actually
recorded a pun or not a podcast, but a video today, for my
course, on this, very subject matter, because I feel like a
lot of people compete too frequently or they just simply
even if they're not competing. Yeah, they go into a cut, too
frequently. Largely because they don't get
these blood panels drawn. So they can't quantify how much
it's truly impacting their markers.
If people were to get that, there was a mandatory test.
That's okay. If you are going to do a cut,
you have to get these panels drawn at the onset.
Halfway through at the end, that would at least make it, you
know, apparent to people how these things are being infected.
And they would at least hopefully not throw caution to
the wind when it comes to, you know, going through an extreme
cutting phase, right? I mean the amount of stress, Is
that, I mean I have never done a bodybuilding cut, but but I
certainly have done a lot of research on the topic and not as
much as you know, nowhere near but, but I've touched on it,
will get you on stand you on Kim.
I go. Oh, yeah, it is, is that it's an
enormous stress on the system just an enormous stress.
And if even if somebody has like naturally great levels of sex
hormones, they are going to be in the toilet by the time.
Stage ready? And you don't want to do that to
a body too often? Yeah, I feel like in my 2020
prep my total, I didn't test free testosterone but my total
went from 719 to I think for 36 and I was 29 at that point.
Yeah. Which is not a trivial drop and
I've you start out with pretty high.
That's a pretty solid testosterone level.
Yeah. I mean, I've had some like 50, I
hadn't won 55 year old client, That had told testosterone of
like, 11:00 or something crazy, I don't know.
Where is free test was, but he was told he was not on any any
drugs at all. Wow, I mean, yeah, I know
there's a lot of variability and at the end of the day like you
know I mean we can all like have measuring contest about things
and like oh yours is fired - multi, you know, it's like it's
really like how do you function, right?
Some people do well on lower numbers, just fine, but you got
to really look at, you know, are you feeling good?
Are you functioning? Well, and I don't know very many
late cut contest, Preppers who are like I am raring and ready
to I mean there's there's a fair amount of force.
Yeah, but I feel like, you know, that that is stressed to like
it's crazy how much stress can just wreak havoc on hormone
levels, testosterone specific. I've seen people's testosterone
look as if they just finished a competition prep.
Simply based off of them being under a lot of stress at that
moment. Acutely.
Yeah, I mean you know we've talked a bunch about about
lipids but really the focus I like the my strong points on
writing. This book were much more about
like metabolic Health topics. And one of the things that I
think I so often see in my practice with clients on, I do
coaching is that, you know, they come over and over and over
would like what, you know, maybe it's I should cut one more gram
of carbs or you know, Is it that it's like food.
It's all like food, food, food, food, and, you know, when
they're not seeing the results they want, and I'm like, well it
back it up there because you know, whether you're eating five
grams of carbs or seven grams of carbs probably is not as
essential as the fact that you wake up four times a night.
Yeah, and we need to talk about that.
Like let's stop paying attention, like nutrition is
absolutely 100% the foundation, in my opinion of good health but
you still have to build a house on the foundation.
And if sorry go ahead no I'm just totally agree with you.
I feel like yeah on that subject.
I've actually get this is relevant.
I get two new employees and I had two extra.
See GM's that were sent to me so I don't like plug these see GM's
into my two new employees who are not well versed.
In Quito nutrition, welcome here at all.
They're just kind of learning as they go.
Yeah, you know, and it's been super cool for me to use this as
like a learning experience for them.
Because like it's like you and I and people that are like
listening to this podcast we take for granted how much we
know about nutrition and we just you know that we take it for
granted but like when you have somebody who just simply eats ad
libitum whatever and they don't really realize how it impacts
them for them to be able to have a CGM and see like one of them
was waking up at midnight to eat a bunch of cookies.
It's like yeah that's gonna have a pretty profound impact on your
CGM. Scores on that note there for a
while. They're there was like this big
debacle in the ketose. Space about people using see
GM's and lot of people that were not in the keto space where, you
know, Throwing Shade and saying, why in the world are you used to
CGM? If you don't, if you're not
diabetic I'd be curious to get your take on see GM's and how
somebody would use them to Garner actionable data.
Right. There's actually a section on
that in the book page 48 ish about, you know, ways that you
can use blood. Add sugar testing to help you
make good food choices. What should your blood sugar's
look like on a you know a diet that's working well for you.
I will say that in the book I do and we do say there are some
people, we don't recommend, get a CGM and those are people that
are going to obsess about it, right?
Because I do think that sometimes there are certain
personality types Oops who are going to just constantly freak
out and the CGM. The monitoring is going to
actually increase their overall stress and so there, I think
there are people who it's not a net win for.
Yeah, because the reality is, if you're already making generally
good food, choices your blood sugar might go up and down a
little bit, but it's not gonna go crazy unless you have These
are some other type of problem, which, you know, you should rule
out for sure. But if you're somebody who eats
a low-carb ketogenic diet isn't snacking all day, stays away
from the keto junk food, most of the time, you know, maybe even
eats just a low-carb diet, not even fully keto, you're not
going to have wildly swinging blood sugars.
And if you eat a purely, ketogenic diet, we all often say
that watching your CGI. IM on a ketogenic diet is about
as exciting as watching paint dry.
Yeah, it's a pretty flat line and so you can, you can totally
learn from wearing a CGM. But I think there are certain
personality types and I've talked to them, that they, it's
very hard for them to understand the limits of the CGM.
So, a CGM isn't gonna. It can't differentiate between
two very close together numbers. So it's only accurate within a
certain range So I will have people come to me and say well
my CGM said, my blood sugar was 78 and then I ate this thing and
then it went to 80 and I'm like those are effectively the same
number. You're a CGM is guessing at that
point because they're within a sort of range of tolerance of
numbers or an error range and so I would be unethical of me to
suggest that something and there or something didn't happen there
because the data is not precise enough, the data are not precise
enough, I always use the wrong it for you to draw a conclusion
and I do see in the keto Community people trying to draw
conclusions on bad data sometimes or incomplete data or
inaccurate data and and on blood on their CGM and I think those
people Probably could use a wake-up call, and it would
probably help their stress level to say, you know, as long as
you're curve, is relatively stable, you're doing great, and
I would stop worrying about the little minutia.
However, for people that aren't those people, you know, the
people who like fast and meditate and you know, take cold
plunges, you don't a real like that like hyper on it, people.
Those people are more like, maybe you need a nap, but if
someone is like, ah, I just eat cookies because they're Tate,
you know? Like the other end of the
spectrum where they're not like your employee new employees,
right? Who are super not conscious or
regularly falling off and just assuming it's okay.
You know, for those people who need a wake-up call, I think a
CGM. Probably is a great idea.
Yeah, it's kind of the whole debate with like monitoring
ketones to like I am never one to say people have to monitor
ketone Seems like when I get a new client and they ask if they
should purchase a keto monitor, like I tell him, it's totally up
to them, we can do everything that we need to do without it,
it's handy, but it's not necessary and I feel like
there's definitely a component of, you know, analysis,
paralysis. If you just allow yourself to
become a slave to whatever number that shoots out at you.
Yeah. And certainly, then I also see
that the opposite, right? I have a lot of people come to
me, who are like, I'm not losing weight.
Should I get a CGM? I'm like, well, a CGM is going
to tell you things about your health, potentially that might
be useful to you, but I don't find a lot like on a very pulled
back level. Yes, there's a correlation to
like wildly swinging, blood sugars and and not being super
healthy, but it's not going to be a guide.
That tells you how to lose body fat.
Yeah. For most people, right?
And same thing with a ketone monitor.
It can certainly Help, you know, if you're in ketosis or not.
But are you hungry? And are you being driven to eat
more or less? Like that will tell you what,
you are probably more looking for an answer to.
Yeah, I'm just waiting on them to come out with a CCM.
A continuous cortisol monitor so I can see what my Pops that
can't. Yeah, that'd be good.
I thought you're going to say, continuous insulin monitor.
That was the dream for a while. Yeah, that would be good too.
I mean, they've got the
technology, right? It's just, it would be not
cost-effective for most people. It, the problem is that insulin
is Is a much more tricky thing to test.
Like the the, what they're testing, what they're running,
the tests on like it has to be kept cold, it's not as stable.
And so it's harder to do without a lab gotcha, it makes sense.
You need a bigger sample, you know.
So but that people have tried. I once met with a guy who was
trying, it never I don't I haven't seen it yet.
So we'll think about speaking insulin.
What's your take on physiological?
Insulin resistance resistance, I prefer to call it.
Adaptive glucose pairing, right. Define that for me.
So, physiological insulin resistance is essentially, when
a body acts, like, it's insulin resistant.
And what, what is insulin resistance, right?
It's There's pathological insulin resistance, which is
when you develop the pathology which, you know, I mean I don't
want to get to layman's terms here, but I tend to think,
pathology problem, you know, the disease course of becoming
insulin resistant is when your body stops recognizing insulin
as what it is there to do. So, in a healthy body, You have
a need for insulin which is going to help you shuttle.
It's like a nutrient partitioning hormone so you eat
a piece of fruit and your body says okay well we now are taking
more glucose on board than we need in this moment.
We're going to raise insulin slightly that insulin going up
is going to shuttle some of that glucose into other parts of the
body, the liver. Ever muscle cells.
If you but over time, you can overtax the system and become
insulin resistant, which means I always like, I'm your audience
already knows this. But I like in it together, like
really like a song on the radio and you just keep turning it up.
It stops sounding loud after a while.
Yeah, and then somebody else gets in the car and they're
like, what is wrong with you? That is too loud.
You become sound resistant. As you keep cranking up the
volume, When you are constantly overwhelming your cells, they
become insulin resistant, they don't recognize insulin at lower
volumes. So you keep, having to raise the
volume, which means, whereas a little bit of insulin, we used
to do the job now, you need a lot of insulin.
And so that's insulin resistance and that, but that's
pathological and from a busy and mechanistic standpoint that
continually elevated level of insulin, Owen.
Yeah, is very inflammatory towards the body.
It is very inflammatory and that chronically elevated insulin is
associated with a lot of progressive diseases, heart
disease, cancer. Like it's insulin is a growth
hormone and it tells the body to grow.
And so it is very associated with a lot of problems.
If you want to read a book about that been bickmans, why we get
sick is a good one about how Anemia chronically High insulin
leads to a lot of health problems, including type 2
diabetes but not exclusively, but not only that one, but there
is in the literature something that can occur called
physiological insulin resistance.
Now, in this case, of physiological insulin
resistance, you won't see high fasting insulin or high
c-peptide, which are both markers that.
Say, your, A body is, in a chronic hyperinsulinemic state,
right? You're you're not swimming in a
sea of high, insulin people who generally have physiological
insulin resistant or people that actually have low fasting
insulin. But what's happening is that
their body has gotten so used to not needing much insulin to help
their so insulin. I'm stopping to try and make
sure I'm explaining this in ways that will help people.
Let's have you ever heard of people doing a glucose test?
Like, Crystal probably was asked to do one when she was pregnant,
right? It's where we knew would fail.
It's where you're like they give you 100 grams of sugary carbs or
75 or some number. And they're like drink this.
We want to see what your glucose does.
If someone's been eating low carb for a while, they will fail
that test because their body is not used to that much glucose,
and insulin is very stingy. So if if you are constantly
teaching your body, that we only need this much insulin for the
amount of carbohydrates, we tend to ingest.
It's like you live in California so you don't own a heavy parka,
right? Because you don't need it here,
but if I suddenly drop that person in the middle of the
Arctic, they're going to die because they so.
But if you prep someone properly like if I took a low-carb person
and fed them carbs for three or four days, they're fasting
insulin would creep up enough that they Hood handle that
sudden influx of glucose. And so, that is a short-term
physiological issue. It's not a chronic or
pathological issue. It's just how you've trained
your body to respond. And so, I don't see it as a
problem. Yeah.
I like the Adaptive glucose sparing terminology a bit better
and I think, I think there's been a lot of fear-mongering
around this. Geological instant resistance,
but I feel like, yeah, like like by my standards, if I was to
consume a whole bunch of carbohydrates, I kind of liken
it to the inverse of Quito. Flute-like if you have not been
in a ketogenic diet for years and then you do a ketogenic
diet, you're going to have these quote-unquote keto, flu-like
symptoms, because you're basically 180 degree shift in
your body's primary fuel source, the same is true in Reverse.
If you've been key to for quite some time when you transition to
consuming more carbohydrates, it's not like your body forgets.
How to process, though. That just takes a little Bit of
a nap regulatory period. Yeah you just weren't ready,
click your body like whoa, whoa, whoa, we don't have the gear yet
and so you just need to. Yeah, your body will not forget
what to do with carbohydrates. It, that is Elemental to who we
are the species. It is just that you need to.
I mean I don't think that abrupt change is good for anybody.
If you were, if you took like months off of going to the gym
and then you went in and did your normal gym routine you
would break yourself. Yeah.
It's just like anything else. You gotta be aware that
transitional periods are weird and you've got to take care of
yourself in them. And I think some people have
used this concept of physiological insulin resistance
as an argument in favor of always consuming some A sign
carbohydrates to prevent that from happening which I totally
respect that argument. But I don't necessarily think it
is inherently required. It's just kind of like what do
you want to optimize for so much?
Right? Well, I guess my question to
them would be like, why? Like, I mean, like I eat more
carbs than you do these days. I'm more on a low-carb diet than
purely keto. So I don't think I would fail a
glucose test but but I'm Very strongly on team.
Eat the way that works for you. So I'm not against if somebody's
like, hey, I like to keep carbs on board.
So I'll never be in that state of my body being confused, but
you would never know that you're having that problem.
Unless you did a blood test right there are if you are
somebody that now some people get gastric distress, their
stomach gets upset when they eat a food, they're not used to, but
that's good. That's a separate topic.
I mean, that will happen with a lot.
Like if you're lactose intolerant, there's so many
reasons. You might get a stomach ache.
So you gotta, you gotta play into that but just the like the
fact that your blood sugar was a little higher than it normally
is Most people I said a little bit higher.
I don't mean like sky-high but a little bit higher, you won't
notice that. Yeah there.
Well there's no downside if you're working out and you eat
some extra carbs and I fed you an apple right before a workout,
your body would just use that in the workout.
I don't think you would, unless you got a stomachache, I don't
think you would really, actually even probably notice it.
And so the argument that people might be making That you don't
want to get in that state where your body is confused.
I just, I think they're not giving their body enough credit.
Yeah, I totally 100% agree. 100% agree.
I have been remiss had not even talked about your other book,
which I honestly, to be fair. I don't even know you had
written until you see the comet since last book which I had a
copy of that, but thanks for the additional copy but I didn't
realize that you had written a Recipe book A book Niche.
Yeah, yeah Nation. I a couple of years ago were
hanging out and we were talking about like, our sort of family
favorites over the holiday season.
And so we decided to put them in a book and we just had a digital
book at the time. But we when we printed Common
Sense Labs, I realized, oh, let's get some of these books
printed as well of the, it's called our holiday table.
And it's you know, about 100 page recipe book, easy.
Not too. There are a few that I'm like
this one's kind of complicated but it's fun for the holidays,
but most of them, super simple. It's all like celebratory
holiday style food. Some of the recipes are niches
based on Family Recipes. Some of the recipes are mine
based on family recipes and it should have fun way to get some
holiday recipes in Your Arsenal. I like it.
I like it was is a fried turkey in there.
There is not fried turkey but there is Now, in the cookbook of
next year, they'll be an update by the way, but this year.
So in the cookbook I did. I, Nisha does cornish game hens
and I did the turkey and my turkey recipe used to be cooking
the turkey upside down, which is the breast side down and the
Dark Side Up. It doesn't look as good but then
as you're cooking it all the fat from the dark meat, drips
through the chicken, the breast part gets you.
And so it keeps Is it moister it Cooks?
It slower. So you don't end up with dry
white meat. But this year, Eric my boyfriend
and I did spatchcock to Turkey. What does an this spatchcock
case pellet? Which we SP a TC HC Ock, I think
span fat measurement for. If you basically remove the
backbone of the turkey, you can also spatchcock chicken or any
bird. Right.
You remove the spine. And then you've basically got
and then you and then you break its rims.
So you can see it's a very aggressive way to prep a turkey
but you cut out the spine and then you crack the ribs.
So you basically have a flat turkey.
Okay, does that make sense? Yeah, I'm following you used to
be sort of round and you take you cut out the back part of it
and then you crack it. So it's flat as possible.
So now it's all one plane and then you cook it and it Cooks
super fast. And it is so good and juicy and
because it Cooks so fast, it doesn't have time to dry out.
Gotcha. Gotcha.
We've always done a deep-fried turkey and are Hampshire.
That's delicious. It is amazing.
Like I love deep-fried turkey. It is hard to beat, it's
definitely a southern thing. I believe in my dad was getting
a doctorate Minnesota. He would deep fried turkeys for
people up there and they just like looked at him funny and
then they tried it and they just wanted him to keep bringing
deep-fried turkey. It like everybody uses, peanut
oil for deep fry a turkey and I don't know.
Like, what's your kind of get along little punk ass right now.
You sure peanut peanut oil is very high in poof, has
polyunsaturated fatty acids. So some people are very
concerned about the composition of their oils, one of the issues
about boils, you know, I have a good.
Well it's like I don't know if it covers all of it but I'll
send you a note. Oracle.
If you want to include it in the notes but about different oils
and cooking them at different things.
And So some like some people are very concerned about one frying
because frying causes a lot more oxidation and it's oxidized
peugeot's are considered to be pretty bad by a lot of people
for sure. But then other people will say
well when you fry something it Cooks so quickly that oil is
only in contact so is that really an issue, right?
So there's lots of debate about these things.
If I were to If I'm going out to a restaurant, I'm not worried
about what kind of oil you use and I'm going to assume it's a
bad one. I would just not get fried food,
right? I'm just like at there's a
little of it, not canola oil that I'm not super excited about
in that, I'm just going to assume it and move on with my
life but I don't buy it for my house.
So it's going to be a small fraction of my diet, right?
So I guess then my question is you know how many things you
frying peanut oil? If it's once a year or your
holiday turkey, am I going to freak out about it probably We
not yeah, but if it's a regular thing you do then I think it's
something to think about and in that case I would probably be
more inclined to fry in maybe tallow.
Which is beef fat. I agree.
It's very tasty. I was pricing out what it would
cost to get enough Tallow to deep-fried turkey and it's
something like 150 bucks for that.
That's probably not cheap. You know, you can render your
own callow. I know you hunt so you could
save the fat and render it for later.
But yeah, I mean the problem with frying like a turkey is
you've got to get like a giant Boiling fat.
Yeah, not use a small amount. So yeah, I mean it's definitely
something to think about but again, like I really try to go
on the like let's just be saying adult humans and if you're doing
this once or even twice a year and your diet is like top-notch,
all the rest of the year pretty much, I don't know that you're
ingesting enough. Problematic compounds in those
two servings of turkey, a year that were fried in peanut.
Boil. The I'm going to be upset about
them. Yeah, that's kind of the, The
Stance of taking on it because we'd literally did once twice a
year, but I do want to try it at a low fried, turkey, just
because that sounds like it's going to taste amazing.
Even if it's well maybe you could do just part of a turkey
or a very small turkey and see it so you don't have to buy as
much towel. There you go, maybe we'll have a
deep-fried recipe next to the spatchcock recipe.
Sure, you know, send it over, we'll put it in the in the
recipe book for next year. Love it.
I love it. Well, Kim, where do This book
comments and slams, what what does the neighbors?
Find it at Common Sense? Labs book.com you have to
include the word book. Common Sense Labs, book.com will
get you to the link for getting the labs book and Kim Howard
send.com forward. Slash books will actually get
you to all books that I have written.
Some of them are just ebooks and some of them are ebooks and
physical Books available. Is there a Separate website for
the recipe book as well or that is on Kim Howerton.com books.
It does not have its own URL at this point, it might in the
future, gotcha. I gotcha.
And for anything in all other things.
Kim Howard. And where do people go?
Tim. Howard and.com is my website.
So that's probably the number one place on social media on
Instagram and Facebook. I am the Katonah State.
Th e KET 0 n is T. And on YouTube, I'm just
empowered to love it. Well Kim, we're an hour 10
minutes into this and there's just still so many things.
I'd love to chat with you about what you seem to like, see each
other again here soon. What I know me to hang I will be
in Denver for low carb, Denver. You going to that?
I don't know, I've been invited. I've been invited to have a
booth there but I'm probably will not be going there to be
totally understand mate, and make its, which decision last
minute. But this first quarter, I've
intentionally not gone to any punt conferences that I can just
stick my head down and get to work on some things for smart.
Yes, I probably will not be going to that one.
My first for sure conference is the one is Quito Con in April.
Yeah, I wasn't going to go to Kyoto con, but Nisha and Ken
Berry talked me into it. So, I'm attending I'm not
speaking or doing anything official.
I'm just going to go to say, hey, to people.
Well, let's most certainly get if not before then.
Certainly then let's get like a, like a little meet and greet
setup. We're all had dinner, something
together, like, we normally do, and we'll just go talk shop and
catch up. But hopefully, I mean shoot,
we'll have to see each other all before that.
That's not until April. Yeah, absolutely.
Let's we'll find a Time. Awesome will Kim.
It is always a pleasure. I think the world of you, I've
got most respect for you. What you doing, what you stand
for and I cannot wait until our next conversation.
Thanks so much. I back at you, I have to say, I
mean, you're just a pillar of the community or a stand-up guy,
a super awesome person and you married well and your kid isn't
bad either. So you're all a great.
A great family and I love what you're putting out there in the
world. Thank you, Kim will definitely.
Let's also definitely have a conversation in the
not-too-distant future. Maybe another podcast about
weight training, I'm curious to see what you've done with the
personally but then also throw your community specifically kind
of how how I can add any value to them if at all possible.
Because I think like you were saying at the very beginning
this podcast incorporating that into the day-to-day routine is
absolutely Paramount. Absolutely, I love to talk about
that in the future because so I think weight training for the
emotionally resistant is probably, you know, a good thing
to talk about physiological resistance, we get emotionally
resistance. I like you were coming up with
all kinds, there's all sorts of resistance out there, yes, yes,
awesome camera. We will talk soon for sure.
Until then you have a wonderful 2023, you too.