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Well, hello ladies and gents, 
Robert Sykes, Keto savage.com. 

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Today I've got special guest Joe
Hoy on the line and we dive deep

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into the wonderful world of 
reverse dieting. 

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So I'm always excited to bring 
somebody on the podcast that is 

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well versed in reverse dieting 
and talks about that because 

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it's so important. 
And I feel like some people are 

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just chronically restricting and
under eating. 

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So getting somebody to talk 
about reverse dieting alongside 

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myself is always a pleasure. 
Thoroughly enjoy the 

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conversation with Joe. 
I've got no doubt that you will 

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take something from this. 
Stop for the delay, sit back, 

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relax, enjoy the podcast with 
Joe Hoy and We Are Live. 

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Joe, how are you, brother? 
Doing good things. 

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How are you I'm. 
Good man, I'm good. 

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I do not know much about you. 
I've I've intentionally not done

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my homework. 
So I like to just go off the 

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cuff. 
But and in reading the intro 

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pitch from your agency, it seems
as though you are a fan of not 

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promoting under eating, which 
I'm also a fan of. 

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And I think that is something 
that we need to dive deep into 

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here. 
I'm a very big fan of that. 

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I'm also a fan of doing 
absolutely no research on the 

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person that's going to be on my 
show cause like you said, it 

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just makes it so much more fun. 
Well, I feel like a lot of 

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people in the podcast game. 
How long have you been 

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podcasting? 
My first episode came out four 

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days ago, but we have another 40
episodes booked. 

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Nice, nice. 
I've been podcasting since 2016,

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consistently since 2018. 
And one thing I've found is that

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it has to be sustainable for me.
And if I'm doing like hours and 

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days of research on a guest, it,
it puts too much pressure on the

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conversation for it to flow 
organically and natural. 

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So I just don't do any research 
apart from, you know, maybe like

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a 30 second glance, their 
Instagram or something, their 

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last blog post and just wing it 
from there. 

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And honestly, I feel like it 
makes the conversation flow 

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better because I actually have 
to listen to what you're saying.

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And then I have better questions
as a follow up. 

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You have to listen. 
And you also, you're just 

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surprised when I say things and 
it's, it's, it's organic, which 

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I think feels much better and 
people can tell. 100% man, 100%.

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Well, where do you want to 
start? 

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I want to get some back story on
you. 

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I kind of want to hear what got 
you into working with 

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middle-aged women to begin with,
man. 

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Like I had a friend that was 
talking to me the other day and 

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he's working with middle-aged 
women. 

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I'm like, man, you're never 
going to be a middle-aged woman.

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So you, you're a excellent 
endurance runner. 

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Let's dive into the endurance 
scope. 

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But some guys can pull it off, 
man. 

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So what got you interested in 
working with middle-aged women? 

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Yeah, that's, that's always the 
starting point. 

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That's always the elephant in 
the room, and rightfully so. 

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So kind of a three-part story. 
It starts with me as a 13 year 

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old boy. 
I had two step brothers. 

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They were in and out of the 
house, sometimes at my mom's, 

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sometimes at their mom's. 
And when they were gone, it was 

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just me and my mom. 
She was my biggest, strongest, 

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most consistent role model and 
she saw me going down a bad 

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path. 
Number one, I was starting to 

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get picked on and bullied a 
little bit. 

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Number two, I was starting to 
hang with the wrong kids and do 

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some pretty dumb shit. 
And because of both those 

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things, he's like, hey buddy, 
I'm going to go to the gym. 

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I'd love it if you came with me 
after your homework's done, 

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after I cooked dinner, will you 
come? 

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And I was like, yeah, I'd love 
to. 

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And it made sense to me because 
I was getting picked on. 

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I wanted to be like the guys at 
the gym that were big and strong

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and confident and didn't get 
picked on. 

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So I went with her. 
I fell in love with it. 

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And from the age of 13 to 18, I 
went just religiously, but I 

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never made any changes. 
I was 511 at 13. 

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I was still 511 at 18. 
I was 135 lbs at 13. 

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I was 140 lbs at 18. 
Like nothing really changed. 

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I was super tall, super skinny, 
still getting picked on. 

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But she did get me hooked on 
that. 

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And that changed the the 
direction of my life. 

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And so I graduate high school, I
start going to college to pursue

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a career in surgery and in the 
medical field. 

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Because of that, I have to start
taking courses on anatomy, 

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Physiology, nutrition, 
kinesiology, and understand what

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it is that the body needs for 
change. 

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So I was my first Guinea pig, 
but at the same time I was at 

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college and I was away from my 
old environment. 

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So I started drinking and 
partying and treating my body 

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like crap. 
And even though I was still 

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going to the gym, still doing 
more of the right things, I was 

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doing a whole lot more of the 
wrong things. 

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And so I gained weight for sure.
But it was the majority of it 

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was fat. 
And so I gained 80 lbs in about 

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a year and a half. 
I went from the 145 up to 225. 

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And then I had a new problem. 
I was still uncomfortable in my 

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body. 
Instead of being underweight, I 

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was just fat. 
And I didn't like that. 

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So I ditched the partying, 
really dialed in everything I 

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knew to be true. 
That created success. 

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And that's when it all came 
together. 

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I I went from 2:25 down to the 
195 I am right now. 

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And people noticed 'cause I grew
up in a small town. 

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So like, Joe, I saw you skinny, 
I saw you fat. 

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You came back from college and 
now you're jacked. 

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Like, how did you do that? 
And enough people asked to where

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I knew I had something and I 
knew I had to charge for it 

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because so many people were 
asking. 

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So I get my job in surgery. 
I'll dive into that in a second.

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But at the same time, I'm 
starting this fitness career on 

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the side. 
It's like my side hustle. 

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And transparently I thought I 
wanted to help people like me. 

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You know, young men either gain 
muscle or lose fat and feel 

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confident in their body because 
that had a major positive effect

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in my life. 
So I start running these online 

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weight loss challenges again. 
Think I want to help people like

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me marketing on Instagram, 
marketing on Facebook and I get 

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a lot of sign ups, but I never 
look at the names. 

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And the very first day that I 
open up Zoom to do that for his 

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coaching call, he got a lot of 
faces looking back at me and 

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none of them look like me. 
They all look like my mom. 

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And I panicked. 
I was like, what the hell 

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happened? 
Like how did this, why? 

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And what I came to realize is 
that just growing up with my 

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mom, spending most of my time 
with her, most of my time with 

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her friends, I learned to 
communicate in a way that 

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resonated with them just because
that's why I was surrounded by. 

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So I think I naturally drew them
in at the end of that first 

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eight weeks. 
We all had fun. 

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They all got our results and I 
loved it. 

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And I said, you know what? 
Maybe this isn't what I set out 

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to do, but I stumbled across it 
and I freaking love it. 

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So I'm going to keep doing it. 
And the last piece is I got my 

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job in surgery. 
I was a surgical technologist. 

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So my role was to set up the 
operating room sterile before 

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the doctor came in. 
And then when the doc was in 

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there, I was helping he or she 
with the procedure. 

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Anything they couldn't do with 
their own two hands, I was 

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doing. 
And again, getting pushed in 

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this strange direction. 
For me, I was the one man on the

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team. 
It was myself and six or seven 

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other women and they chose to 
take me and stick me inside the 

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OB and GYM based rooms. 
So then for the next three or 

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four years, I'm leaning over 
this female patient assisting 

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the doctor on all these female 
related problems. 

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And not only that, but I'm 
trying to be proactive. 

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I'm like taking what I learned 
from the operating room and 

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applying it to my coaching. 
So I'd ask the doctor to like, 

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hey, why is this patient in here
and what could they have done 

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proactively to not be in here? 
So yes, I'm trying to learn from

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my day job, but secretly I'm 
applying everything to coaching 

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and that's it. 
Like six years later, inside of 

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HOI fit, I haven't looked back. 
I quit surgery a few years ago. 

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And that's, that's just my 
story. 

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Number one, I want to give back 
to my mom because she massively 

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changed the direction of my life
#2I resonate with these ladies 

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and I have fun and then #3 I 
understand their body really 

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freaking well. 
I love it man, makes total 

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sense. 
I would imagine too that your 

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impact on the world and the 
amount of people you can 

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positively change is 
significantly amplified in the 

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coaching sphere rather than the 
operating room. 

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One person at a time as opposed 
to the 100 clients that we have 

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right now. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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Did you feel like when you were 
with the, you know, doctor, was 

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it, was there much talk about, 
you know, proactive care? 

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Was it all kind of more of a 
reactionary basis? 

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It would depend on the doctor, 
you know, and just like I think 

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we all go to different doctors 
and experience that, but some of

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them proactive wasn't even a 
thought process they had. 

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It was just like, let's look at 
what we have now and fix that. 

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And some of them would try and 
educate the patient then to 

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proactively solve something that
might come up later. 

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So it just depend on who I was 
with. 

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It's interesting, man, I am not 
marketing to middle-aged females

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at all in any of my messaging. 
None of my color scheme, none of

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my branding, none of my logos, 
nothing. 

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Yet that is the vast majority of
my clientele basis as well. 

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And I think that's probably 
because that's just the vast 

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majority of the demographic that
is looking in, you know, the 

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online space for health and 
nutrition wisdom. 

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So it's a pretty big demographic
to tap into, but it's 

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interesting and I'm sure we can 
agree on this, that of that 

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demographic, middle-aged 
females, the common denominator 

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that I see holding most of the 
magnified to distill it to one 

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simple tangible thing, it'd be 
that they just oftentimes jump 

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from one that to the next, all 
the while chronically under 

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eating. 
That's I couldn't have said any 

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better. 
Like they, number one, don't do 

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anything long enough and #2 
anything that they do is 

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generally wrong because the 
calories are too low and they've

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eaten too little calories for 
way too long. 

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Why is that the case? 
Why is it the common 

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denominator? 
What is the messaging that 

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they're receiving to make that 
the norm? 

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That's something that I, I 
transparently and unfortunately 

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didn't start considering up 
until like two or three years 

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ago. 
And after starting to dig into 

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it, I think it's because they've
just been taught by people that 

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didn't know any better. 
Like we've just recently come 

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into this whole conversation of 
you need to eat more, you need 

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to strength try it if you're a 
woman. 

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But before, when they were five 
years old, ten years old, 20 

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years old, their mom may have 
been or their gym teacher or 

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their health teacher or some 
older peer was doing the best 

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that they knew how to do with 
the information that they had, 

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but it was just the wrong 
information. 

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So it was like, hey, Becky, I 
know you're 12, but I don't want

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you to be unhealthy when you're 
older. 

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So go on this 1200 calorie diet 
now. 

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And that's what they learn as a 
child is good, or that's what 

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they learn as a 20 year old in 
college or a 30 year old that 

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just had a kid and it's just 
ingrained in them for years. 

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So like man, if you don't know 
any better, it's hard to do any 

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different. 
Yeah, 100%. 

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Obviously, the hormonal 
implications can come into the 

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picture when it comes to, you 
know, body composition and what 

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makes a diet sustainable in the 
1st place. 

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But before we even peel the 
curtain back on hormones, what 

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do you notice when it comes to? 
Just like, how do you navigate 

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the messaging when the rhetoric 
of, you know, flexible dieting 

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even fits your macros? 
Energy Balance Calories In, 

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Calories Out is the reigning 
champ in the space right now. 

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It's just I, I'm, I'm not a 
certain diet guy. 

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Like I know that your big thing 
is keto and if people are doing 

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keto the right way, I am all for
it. 

225
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,160
I know that some people's big 
thing is, I don't know, let's 

226
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,680
just say high carb. 
If somebody's giving their body 

227
00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:21,000
the nutrients that it needs and 
the calories that it needs, I'm 

228
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,720
generally OK with it unless we 
start going to extremes because 

229
00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,040
I just want people to find what 
works for them. 

230
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,640
Yeah, I can totally agree with 
that. 

231
00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,400
I feel like a lot of people 
they, when you work with with, 

232
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:40,720
with women, are you noticing 
that they're eating less or are 

233
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,320
they having moments where they 
are eating more and they're just

234
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:44,920
not accounting for that? 
They're not tracking that like 

235
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,040
they're the people that are such
big proponents of the energy 

236
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,360
balance equation in the law of 
thermodynamics suggests that if 

237
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,880
you are in fact eating below 
your expenditure, you will, you 

238
00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,720
know, lose weight. 
So what would be the the reason 

239
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,280
for this obesity epidemic we 
find ourselves in? 

240
00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,320
Like what is the the catalyst 
there in your opinion? 

241
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,200
Man, I wish I had that answer 
like concretely for you. 

242
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,280
No, I, I don't believe it. 
OK. 

243
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,680
I because we do see ladies that 
I know confidently contract the 

244
00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:20,080
right way and they're showing me
that they're eating 800 calories

245
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,200
a day, 1000 calories a day, 1200
calories a day when their needs,

246
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,320
their caloric needs are 
clustered like 2000. 

247
00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:31,320
And so they're not blowing their
calories out of the water Sunday

248
00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,520
and Saturday. 
They're truly under eating and 

249
00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,520
they're gaining weight or 
staying the same. 

250
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,040
So I don't believe that's true, 
but I wish I had this nerdy 

251
00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:45,280
scientific answer for you. 
Aside from the body not evolving

252
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,920
as quick as civilization, I 
can't come up with anything 

253
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,800
else, right. 
What I mean by that is our 

254
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,800
bodies are smart. 
They're built to protect us, and

255
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,280
thousands of years ago, we did 
not have a grocery store on 

256
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,160
every corner. 
And so when calories got sparse,

257
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,120
our body started protecting us 
and slowing down our functions 

258
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,240
that we burned less calories so 
that we held on to more weight 

259
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,120
so that we could survive. 
Now our bodies don't know that 

260
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,720
we have a grocery store on every
corner and if we need, we can 

261
00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,640
just go drive to the corner of 
the store, corner of the block 

262
00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,040
and get some food. 
But that's true. 

263
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,080
Is that, do you agree with that 
or do you think there's 

264
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,680
something different going on? 
No, I definitely think the, the 

265
00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:31,800
evolutionary underpinnings to 
why, like we are designed to be 

266
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,240
innately aware of what we need 
and what we don't need. 

267
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,480
However, that upbringing is not 
in relation to what we have at 

268
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,240
our disposal these days. 
I mean, the fact that we can 

269
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,960
walk to the nearest gas station 
and pick up, you know, those 

270
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,520
macho chimichangas that are 800 
calories a pop and they're 

271
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,640
completely void of nutrition is,
is our reality. 

272
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,120
So that is in complete contrast 
to what our evolutionary 

273
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,720
upbringing was comprised of. 
So that that's definitely an 

274
00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:58,960
issue. 
And I feel like a lot of people,

275
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,960
while they may be consuming 
ample calories, they're not 

276
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,800
consuming ample nutrition. 
So their desire for more is, you

277
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:08,960
know, amplified. 
So they wind up consuming a 

278
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:10,920
surplus there. 
There's people that are 

279
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,320
obviously over consuming, people
that are under consuming, but 

280
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,800
there is certainly a lack of 
nutrition across the board. 

281
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,920
That's a really good point. 
The the calorie versus nutrition

282
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,640
conversation is super true. 
And you're right. 

283
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,000
Like I'm not saying that the the
entire world is under eating and

284
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,120
that's why we're obvious. 
Like there are certainly lots of

285
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,080
people that massively overeat 
every day or on the weekend and 

286
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,360
that's why they gained weight. 
So when you're working with with

287
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,080
people, like just kind of walk 
me through like, what is a 

288
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:41,840
typical avatar for them? 
Obviously we've established 

289
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,640
they're middle-aged women, but 
like, what are they? 

290
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,240
Have they been chronically under
eaten, under eating their whole 

291
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:48,360
life? 
Are they overweight? 

292
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,960
Are they underweight? 
Like what is what is a typical 

293
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:52,640
avatar look like? 
And how do you kind of work with

294
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,480
them to to scope out what 
direction they need to take? 

295
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:02,080
Yeah, so our avatar is generally
going to be a woman, 4050, sixty

296
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,040
year older. 
I actually get really excited 

297
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,920
when I get like that 35 year old
woman that wants to be proactive

298
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,040
because that just makes my day. 
But most of these ladies have 

299
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,680
been on diets, you know, the 
diets, Weight Watchers, Octavia,

300
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,920
all that stuff for 5/10/15 
years. 

301
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:23,000
A lot of times I'm finding now 
since they were a teenager, a 

302
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,920
lot of these people think that 
they need to do more cardio in 

303
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,480
order to lose their weight. 
They don't understand that the 

304
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,800
number on the scale isn't what 
they're after. 

305
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,200
They're actually after a desired
feeling of energy and no 

306
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,440
cravings and no hunger and 
sleeping through the night. 

307
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,840
And they're after a desired 
body, not a not a fake number 

308
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,640
that's on a tool that we use for
data. 

309
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,440
Those are our ladies. 
Makes total sense. 

310
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,520
And when you it's kind of hard, 
man. 

311
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,880
Like I've, I've had several 
coaching calls where it's like, 

312
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,680
I know they're under eating and 
then you have to basically tell 

313
00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,600
them, hey, look, you've under 
eaten your whole life. 

314
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,360
We're going to gradually 
increase your intake or rapidly 

315
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,240
increase your intake depending 
on what they're going to respond

316
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,600
best to. 
And you may in fact gain some 

317
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,640
weight initially until your body
stabilize. 

318
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,240
That's a very hard sell for a 
coach. 

319
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,560
When a client just comes and 
they want to lose weight, build 

320
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,600
muscle, the notion of eating 
more to do so is is a is a hard 

321
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,560
pill to swallow. 
That makes our job way more 

322
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,360
difficult, especially after 
those first couple weeks, and 

323
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,400
the scale might jump up a pound 
or two. 

324
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,120
Not fun. 
Yeah. 

325
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,000
So how how do you kind of let 
the expectation like what does 

326
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,600
that conversation look like when
you're working with? 

327
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:38,560
Them number one, I like to set 
the expectation that, hey, this 

328
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,800
might happen. 
And because I've already told 

329
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,600
them that it might happen, when 
it does happen, they're less 

330
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,520
freaked out because they're 
like, OK, well, you said it 

331
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,040
would, so it's not like it's a 
surprise. 

332
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,480
And then #2 I also like to paint
them a picture. 

333
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,720
And I asked them, hey, Sarah, if
you gain 5 lbs in our first 

334
00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,160
month or two months or three 
months of working together. 

335
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,240
But after that, I helped you 
lose the £45 that you never 

336
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,040
wanted. 
Fit back into your clothes, be 

337
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,520
able to have wine with your 
husband on Friday night, ice 

338
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,040
cream with the kids on Sunday, 
and when you get to work on 

339
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,200
Monday, you still look as good 
as you did before while living a

340
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:20,280
normal life. 
Would you be happy? 

341
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,599
And would you be OK with that 
temporary 5 LB weight gain every

342
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:28,680
time they say yes? 
Are they mostly well versed in 

343
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,400
the gym or is that something 
totally foreign to him? 

344
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,280
Not for us. 
I don't know. 

345
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,560
I don't know about your 
community, but strength 

346
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,120
training. 
And when they hear that word, 

347
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:39,840
they, they think they're going 
to look like you or me. 

348
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,760
And we have to get over, we have
to get them over that. 

349
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,720
Thankfully, it's getting easier 
because we have a few 60 year 

350
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,920
olds, 6764 year olds that are 
just absolute animals in the gym

351
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,360
now and they're lifting heavy 
weights and, and their bodies 

352
00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:56,280
responding amazing to it. 
So it's like, Hey, this is what 

353
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,000
these clients are doing. 
Do you want this life? 

354
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,400
And so giving them the examples 
of their peers rather than me 

355
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,840
makes things easier. 
But now they don't have a ton of

356
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,920
experience. 
I feel like that's, I mean, when

357
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,160
when someone is untrained, 
though, their ability to 

358
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,720
actually build muscle and lose 
fat simultaneously is 

359
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,000
significantly heightened, even 
if they are older. 

360
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,000
So like that can be leveraged in
so many different ways. 

361
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,000
And it gets them excited. 
Like if people are gaining 

362
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,920
weight, but they're able to see,
you know, significant increases 

363
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,080
in the performance metrics in 
the gym, like that warrants that

364
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,040
extra weight gain. 
And it makes that easier to 

365
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,000
stomach as well. 
Absolutely. 

366
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,680
And I, I hope to God that 
nobody's ever judging their 

367
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,640
results simply based on the 
scale. 

368
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,760
Like it's a data point. 
And we also have to take other 

369
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,560
data points like your bi, your 
biofeedback, so your energy, 

370
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,600
your cravings, your hunger, but 
also your measurements. 

371
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,000
And so we'll see. 
A lot of times the scale might 

372
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,400
jump up like you just said, but 
their midsection also goes down 

373
00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,120
and their arm size goes down a 
little bit and their body looks 

374
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:01,520
a little bit tighter. 
And it's like, OK, well, what 

375
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,880
are you after? 
Do you want your body to be in 

376
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,120
the measurements that you want, 
or do you want the number on the

377
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,160
scale to be perfect, you know? 
Are you? 

378
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:11,920
So these people I'm assuming 
probably are not well versed 

379
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,600
with, you know, tracking macros 
either? 

380
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,160
Like if you're not weight 
training, they probably are not 

381
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,480
familiar with macro tracking 
apps generally. 

382
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,520
Not some of them will come and 
they've tracked calories in the 

383
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,400
past, but just because they've 
tracked it, they still didn't 

384
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,800
really have a goal to hit. 
They just stopped By tracking 

385
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,200
their calories. 
Magically, something would 

386
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:29,000
happen. 
Yeah. 

387
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,560
So when you encourage them to 
start eating more, how do you 

388
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:35,120
ensure they actually do eat 
more? 

389
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,400
Do you have them start tracking 
their intake or do you just give

390
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,000
them like a, OK, establish a 
baseline as to what you've been 

391
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,000
consuming and then increase it 
by 10%? 

392
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,280
Like how do you go about that? 
Depends on the person, right? 

393
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,800
If we have somebody that's 
coming from a really disordered 

394
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,160
ass with eating, we might not 
use the scale if they know 

395
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,400
that's a trigger for the 
majority of people. 

396
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,120
We will track food, we will use 
a scale, we will use a tracking 

397
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:01,640
app. 
And let's be realistic, nobody 

398
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,440
likes it. 
Right. 

399
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,960
But also, nobody really likes 
where they're at today, which is

400
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,200
why they come and work with you 
and I. 

401
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,920
And So what I like to tell them 
is this is temporary, right? 

402
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,240
In order to get out of where you
are now, we need to do this for 

403
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,280
a short time just to show you 
what foods actually contain what

404
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,440
calories and macros. 
And when you understand that and

405
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,040
you understand portion sizes, we
can get away from it. 

406
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,040
Because I haven't tracked in 
years. 

407
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,800
My coaches haven't tracked in 
years. 

408
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,040
So you don't have to either. 
I love it. 

409
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,960
I love it When they start 
tracking, are they oftentimes 

410
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,560
shocked at how much more they're
consuming than they realized or 

411
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,040
how much little or how little 
they're consuming compared to, I

412
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,560
mean, is their expectation as to
what they thought they were 

413
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,080
previously consuming accurate at
all? 

414
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:44,480
Or is it totally an eye opener 
form? 

415
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:51,440
His man, a lot of times I'm 
surprised, but a lot of times 

416
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:52,400
they're actually pretty 
accurate. 

417
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,360
Like it's around 12, thirteen, 
1400 calories. 

418
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,480
Every once in a while we'll get 
someone that has no clue when 

419
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:04,160
they're at like 2600 calories or
throughout the week there are 

420
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,040
like 1600. 
In the weekend they're like 

421
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,000
3000. 
So then they average what, like 

422
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,600
2200? 
And I mean, that makes our job 

423
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,040
more simple because we don't 
have to do that reverse diet. 

424
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,040
We can just drop them straight 
into weight loss and that scale 

425
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,320
goes down right away. 
Yeah, totally, totally. 

426
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:21,520
Yeah. 
It's, it's interesting, man. 

427
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,760
People that are eating so 
little, they're oftentimes 

428
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,240
lacking in protein. 
And it's like, I don't know man.

429
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,400
They're, they're eating things 
that are convenient. 

430
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,080
People that are under eating 
often times only eat things that

431
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,680
are convenient. 
And unfortunately, the 

432
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,720
convenience foods are often 
times not the healthiest 

433
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,120
options. 
Right. 

434
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,400
But at the same time, like 
anything can be a convenience 

435
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:45,840
food with a little bit of 
planning. 

436
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:48,760
Totally. 
Do you, you know, like meal 

437
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:49,680
prep? 
Is that something that you 

438
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,520
incorporate? 
I like to meal prep. 

439
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,360
We have some people that it 
doesn't work for them and so 

440
00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:58,960
like maybe they'll make an extra
big dinner and bring the rest 

441
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,880
for lunch the next day. 
And if that works, that's fine. 

442
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,160
What I did is I showed a lot of 
our clients how I personally 

443
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,400
meal prep on Sundays. 
It takes me less than an hour 

444
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,840
for seven days worth of snacks, 
lunches and dinners. 

445
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,240
And so they've all kind of 
adopted that and it's pretty 

446
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:17,960
simple. 
Yeah, that's the way to go, man.

447
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,880
Same thing I do. 
I do the Sunday meal prep. 

448
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,080
I get everything ready to rock. 
And I feel like from a 

449
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,760
psychological standpoint, having
that decision fatigued, removed 

450
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,160
ensure that they don't eat too 
little or eat too much because 

451
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,600
everything's already accounted 
for. 

452
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,400
There's just no, because like 
this, like willpower, as you 

453
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,440
know, is a finite resource. 
And if they're constantly having

454
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,080
to figure out what they're going
to consume that day or how to 

455
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,440
track macros, it just, you know,
taps into that that limit 

456
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,840
limited amounts of willpower for
they can just remove that 

457
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,880
entirely, have everything ready 
to rock, then that's completely 

458
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,240
removed from the equation. 
Their likelihood of adherence is

459
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,040
skyrocketed. 
You also get to wake up Monday 

460
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:00,120
and know you're going to succeed
on autopilot. 

461
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,000
Yeah. 
And that's a really good 

462
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,240
feeling. 
Totally agree. 

463
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,000
So when it comes to reverse 
dieting, this is a concept that 

464
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,600
I've talked about extensively, 
but very few people seem to 

465
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,760
understand. 
So I'm glad to hear you even use

466
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,160
that term. 
How do you go about it? 

467
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,160
Do you do like a gradual stair 
step up increase? 

468
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,080
Do you have like a pretty 
significant increase throughout 

469
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:21,560
the gate? 
Like it's going to be highly 

470
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,920
dependent upon the individual, 
but generally speaking, what is 

471
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,200
your protocol? 
Yeah, I love that. 

472
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,600
So before anything, we need to 
figure out where somebody is, 

473
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,240
right? 
So we'll have them track their 

474
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,080
nutrition for the next 7 days 
and just get an average of where

475
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,640
they're at. 
From there, it kind of depends 

476
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,880
on how long they've been under 
eating for. 

477
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:43,560
Are they 50 and they've been 
doing it since they were 15 or 

478
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,280
are they 50 and they've been 
doing it since they were 43? 

479
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,560
That's gonna play a massive role
in how stubborn their body's 

480
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,160
gonna be and how much it's gonna
fight back. 

481
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,440
Generally across the board. 
We'll go for like a 20% increase

482
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,520
that first week, see how their 
body responds and then based on 

483
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,760
that and based on their diet and
history, we'll bump up anywhere 

484
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,640
from 50 calories a week to about
150 or 200 based on again, how 

485
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,800
the body responds. 
What do you what do you guys do 

486
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,880
kind. 
Of depends if they're like a 

487
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,680
competitive athlete or not. 
If like my competitors, they're,

488
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,600
they're tracking everything, you
know, dieting down for a 

489
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,080
competition. 
We've got all that data leading 

490
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,080
up to that. 
We know exactly what macro 

491
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,200
distribution and caloric intake 
they're responding to. 

492
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,720
And then from there, I'll 
typically give them a bolus, 

493
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,760
increase in protein after the 
show and then fat as well. 

494
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,240
And then I'll kind of taper off 
my refeeds that I have 

495
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,800
incorporated weekly and then 
basically just increase daily 

496
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,960
intake until it exceeds that of 
the refeeds. 

497
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,520
The refeeds become obsolete at 
that point. 

498
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,440
And then we just scale up the 
daily intake until they start to

499
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,640
notice some adverse effects. 
But for competitive clients that

500
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,720
are dieted so lean, they can go 
pretty high with the macros 

501
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,360
before they notice any adverse 
effects. 

502
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:54,000
So they're kind of a a unique 
situation there. 

503
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,280
Yeah, I would say competitors 
are generally a completely 

504
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,320
different conversation. 
Yeah. 

505
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,960
But for my non competitive 
clients, for my middle-aged 

506
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,240
women that have just chronically
under eaten, I'll typically give

507
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,600
them a initial bolus, you know, 
usually around 20%. 

508
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,320
It's pretty good baseline from 
or from their baseline rather. 

509
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,440
And then I'm predominantly 
focusing on the fats and 

510
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,920
proteins, not the carbs, 
obviously. 

511
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,120
And I feel like when you don't 
have carbs as part of the 

512
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:23,720
equation, they don't have as 
much, you know, fluctuation and 

513
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,720
fluid retention weight, which 
tends to work well from them 

514
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,960
psychologically. 
Like if they don't have to worry

515
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,640
about gaining an extra £5 just 
in water weight from 

516
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,000
carbohydrates, it makes 
increasing total calories 

517
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,640
without having that extra weight
increase a little bit more 

518
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,600
tolerable too. 
That's actually a really good 

519
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,880
point, because obviously we both
know that carbs are going to 

520
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,400
cause that water retention. 
If you're increasing your 

521
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,840
calories, and a lot of those are
coming from carbs, you're just 

522
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,440
going to be a sponge for holding
on to that water. 

523
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:51,640
Yeah, that's a good point. 
Yeah. 

524
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,000
But I feel like a lot of people 
that are under eating are under 

525
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,560
consuming protein as well. 
So like, you know, what kind of 

526
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,400
figure out a baseline there, but
that's usually a pretty easy 

527
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,640
macro nutrient variable to 
titrate up without much adverse 

528
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,360
response depending on like from 
my standpoint, how deeply fat 

529
00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:11,080
adapted they are, that kind of 
dictates what that percentage is

530
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,120
in relation to total fat 
consumption as well. 

531
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,240
But most people that are 
chronically under eating are 

532
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,200
just also, you know, under 
consuming protein. 

533
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,200
So they're at an increased risk 
of muscle loss. 

534
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,280
It's just, it's just bad all the
way around. 

535
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,320
But if you can increase 
calories, increase protein, and 

536
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,160
get them weight training, then 
they start to notice, you know, 

537
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:30,760
pretty significant benefits 
right off the bat. 

538
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,640
That's like the recipe for 
success across the board. 

539
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,040
Yeah, 100%, man. 
And The thing is, like, if they 

540
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,800
feel they just have to be honest
with everything else beyond just

541
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,000
the scale weight, like if 
they're establishing that 

542
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,400
baseline and they're actually 
asking themselves, OK, what is 

543
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,720
my sleep quality like? 
What is my libido? 

544
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,520
Like, what is my energy 
throughout the day? 

545
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,840
Where's my recovery when I do 
strenuous activity? 

546
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,160
And they measure against that, 
when they start increasing 

547
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,760
calories, it becomes a very 
obvious win relatively soon. 

548
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,720
But the problem is they don't 
ever consider that. 

549
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,560
They just focus on what the 
scale weight is. 

550
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,560
Yeah. 
And so getting away from that 

551
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,400
and again, redefining what 
success is, is always going to 

552
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:17,040
be massive. 
Because I think that the people 

553
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,000
that it sounds like you and I 
both work with are just, they 

554
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,560
just have the wrong definition 
of success, right? 

555
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,040
Because if somebody really just 
wants to reach a number on a 

556
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:28,640
scale, we can do that and we can
do it fast. 

557
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,000
But when they get there, they're
not going to like what they see 

558
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,080
and they're not going to like 
how they feel. 

559
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:38,520
Yeah, totally, totally. 
I feel like the being able to 

560
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,720
just get them excited about the 
weight training is key. 

561
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,080
So when you're working these 
people that are untrained and 

562
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,920
they don't know, you know, that 
they don't know what to expect 

563
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,960
as far as, you know, soreness, 
adherence, what to expect as far

564
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,200
as rate of strength gain over 
time. 

565
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,080
Like how do you have that 
conversation with them? 

566
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,200
Do you start them off with like 
body weight and resistance band 

567
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,560
movements, then graduate into 
machines and then free weights? 

568
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,320
Is that something that they're, 
you know, easily getting into? 

569
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,040
Like how do you make that work? 
It's pretty common, exactly what

570
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,040
you just said. 
So body weight or bands, 

571
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,560
machines, then free weights. 
Generally I just want them 

572
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,520
moving first, then seeing some 
form of progress either through 

573
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,800
comfort level or strength. 
Then we'll introduce progressive

574
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,760
overload. 
And eventually, like once 

575
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,840
progressive overload is 
introduced, naturally, people 

576
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,960
are going to no longer have a 
need for body weight or no 

577
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,760
longer have a need for banson, 
like they need that heavy 

578
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,920
resistance from a machine or 
from free weights. 

579
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,320
Another big thing that we'll 
take a look at is how often 

580
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,520
somebody's exercising because 
just like most women that we see

581
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,520
are under eating, most women 
that we see are over exercising 

582
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,000
for the amount of recovery that 
they get. 

583
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,400
And so sometimes we'll have to 
tone it down like they're doing 

584
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,800
six or seven days a week of 
strength training and cardio, 

585
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,280
and we're going to need to bring
that down to 3 or 4. 

586
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,840
Yeah, yeah, the cardio thing's 
interesting, man, because I've 

587
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,200
worked with people that have 
consumed, you know, far too 

588
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,080
little for what they're doing. 
Then they'll, they'll, they'll 

589
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,320
not have an eating disorder in 
the sense of, you know, purging 

590
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,480
post consumption, but they will 
do excessive amounts of cardio, 

591
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,720
like, like, like just obscene 
amounts of cardio, like walking 

592
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,680
in excess of 10 miles at the end
of every meal, like just 

593
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,240
craziness. 
So having that conversation and 

594
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,960
having, I mean, having people 
embrace body fat gain initially 

595
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,120
to kind of get to a very healthy
point is, is so hard. 

596
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,840
It's hard for me even as a, as a
seasoned competitor that's gone 

597
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,680
through this cycle multiple 
times. 

598
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,320
I mean, when you see yourself 
lean, then the context, some of 

599
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,160
that is lean and you willingly 
put on more body fat to get to a

600
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,520
acceptable, healthy, sustainable
amount. 

601
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,720
That's a very challenging thing 
for people that are already 

602
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,360
overweight and are under 
consuming and they've wrecked 

603
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,840
havoc on their hormones, 
metabolism and caloral baseline.

604
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,520
You know, it, it's you got to 
have that conversation of, hey, 

605
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,720
look, you may gain some weight, 
but you're going to take one 

606
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,040
step forward or take one step 
backward and you know, multiple 

607
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,280
steps forward. 
It, it's, it's a hard 

608
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,120
conversation either way, But 
it's, it's not a conversation 

609
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,240
that you can have via a simple 
generic macro calculator online 

610
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,640
or suit through some, you know, 
simple one ladder on Instagram, 

611
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,360
Like it's a very involved 
conversation that people need to

612
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,760
hear. 
It is, and there's a lot of 

613
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,920
trust involved with it too, you 
know, because if somebody's not 

614
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,840
bought into the entire process 
and they're looking really short

615
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,400
sighted, really short term makes
it even harder because all they 

616
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,560
see is the weight gain and they 
don't see what's going to happen

617
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,000
after the weight gain. 
Yeah, totally. 

618
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,880
I feel like when people just 
have to be honest with their 

619
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,800
past, their prior year's 
trajectory, like if they are 

620
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,160
unhappy with how they look, feel
and perform and they've quote UN

621
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,520
quote done everything out there,
then in my mind it only makes 

622
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,320
sense to do something that seems
outrageous and extreme. 

623
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,000
Like what's what's the 
definition of insanity? 

624
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,240
Doing the same thing over and 
over and expecting different 

625
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,160
results. 
Like you, you do that extreme 

626
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,080
thing, which in this case is 
eating more, giving your body 

627
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,320
time to up regulate its 
metabolic demands, increase lean

628
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,120
tissue via progress for low with
your training, improve your 

629
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,160
sleep quality, hormone function.
Like that is definitely a long 

630
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:17,440
game approach, but the the 
opposite of that is just not 

631
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:18,800
good no matter which way you 
look at it. 

632
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,720
Like it's a down regulation of 
everything and all things and 

633
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,080
that is not a sustainable way to
live. 

634
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:30,040
Man, I couldn't agree more. 
And and what you said is 

635
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,920
actually what I preach almost on
a daily basis of like, hey, 

636
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,680
let's take a look at what you've
done. 

637
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,480
It's been the same thing over 
and over and over again for 

638
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,440
years and that hasn't worked. 
So we should probably try 

639
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:40,880
something new to get different 
result. 

640
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,600
The problem I see with that is 
it's easy for you and me to say 

641
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,480
because we can look at the diets
that they've done and we can 

642
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,080
tear them apart and look further
than surface level and be like, 

643
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,200
OK, all of these had you eating 
in a massive calorie deficit. 

644
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,360
But I don't think a lot of 
people see that. 

645
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,480
I think that a lot of people 
just look at surface level and 

646
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,240
they're like, well this diet had
me eating only carbs and this 

647
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,960
diet had me eating only fat and 
this diet had me eating only 8 

648
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,160
hours a day. 
And like, yeah, through that the

649
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,080
diet looks different, but if you
really peel it back, they were 

650
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,280
all the exact same. 
Yeah, totally. 

651
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,360
So when you bring somebody's 
calories up and you incorporate 

652
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,920
this reverse diet and you have 
them, you know, ideally at a 

653
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,880
healthy maintenance or slight 
surplus, how long do you keep 

654
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,040
them there before you do 
transition into a fat loss 

655
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,560
phase? 
So going to be different for 

656
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,200
everybody, right? 
I say that the rule of thumb 

657
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,320
that nobody likes to hear is 
that you want to eat at 

658
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,880
maintenance for as long as 
you've eaten in a deficit. 

659
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,400
That becomes extremely 
unrealistic when we have a 50 

660
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,240
year old that's been dieting 
since they were 15. 

661
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,320
That means they're going to be 
over 100 or close to a million 

662
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,360
about a math by the time they 
get in that bikini. 

663
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:54,920
And I don't think they're going 
to do that. 

664
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:01,520
So what we like to say is we 
want to get you to maintenance 

665
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,320
or challenge your maintenance. 
Meaning if the TD EE calculator 

666
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,280
says you should be eating 2200 
calories, let's see if we can 

667
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,280
get you to 2300 without weight 
gain or 24 or 25 or 26, and find

668
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,280
your true maintenance from 
there. 

669
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,640
Let's stay there for a month, 
month and a half, See how you're

670
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,600
feeling, not in terms of the 
scale, but in terms of what you 

671
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,560
talked about earlier, those 
biometrics of libido, focus, 

672
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,800
cravings, hunger, energy, mood. 
And if everything's trending up 

673
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,960
and then has leveled off, I say 
you're at your peak and now 

674
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:37,960
you've earned the right and 
you've built the foundation that

675
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,240
now we can dive into a fat loss 
phase that's actually going to 

676
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,760
work. 
And by the way, you're going to 

677
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,160
eat more calories than you were 
before. 

678
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,480
Yeah, that makes total sense, 
man. 

679
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,320
I, I try and recommend like a 
three to one ratio from a 

680
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,160
competitive standpoint. 
Like if somebody's dieting, like

681
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,920
using myself as an example, you 
know, I dieted for, you know, 33

682
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,640
weeks from my last prep, I'm 
going to spend 3 times that 

683
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,880
minimum in a maintenance or 
surplus before I die down. 

684
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,280
I'm actually going to spend 
significantly more than I'm 

685
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,680
going to take the next four 
years at a surplus before I die 

686
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,360
down for another show. 
But I think the three to one 

687
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,360
ratio makes sense for most 
people unless they've been 

688
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,040
dieting, you know, for the last 
40 years, in which case, you 

689
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,480
know, three times. 
That's going to be a pretty 

690
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,800
lengthy process. 
Nobody's going to stick with us 

691
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,080
that long. 
I like that real thumbnail. 

692
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,440
That's awesome. 
And I'm glad that I'm glad that 

693
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,760
you can talk about that because 
it shows people. 

694
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,120
Look, number one, I'm applying 
it. 

695
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,880
I'm speaking as you right now. 
And #2 I'm looking big picture 

696
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,840
because that's what's best for 
me. 

697
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,520
Like my body's going to perform 
it's best because of that. 

698
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,840
And this is not a finite game. 
Like this is a game that I want 

699
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,080
to keep playing for the rest of 
my life. 

700
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:46,600
Yeah. 
I mean, well, you start and 

701
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,639
think about it like, yes, you 
can build muscle, lose fat 

702
00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:53,040
simultaneously, but you're going
to certainly optimize them if 

703
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,120
you separate them out because 
they kind of compete for one 

704
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,400
another. 
And it takes time to build lean 

705
00:34:58,400 --> 00:34:59,520
tissue. 
But the more lean tissue you 

706
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,880
have, the higher functioning 
your metabolic rate's going to 

707
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,280
be, which is going to like to 
consume more calories, more 

708
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,800
protein, more fats, more 
everything at a healthier 

709
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,680
baseline. 
And if it takes a long time to 

710
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,160
build lean tissue, in my mind, 
it just makes more sense to 

711
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,040
spend more time in a gaining 
phase than in a fat loss phase. 

712
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,600
Because you can, you can lose 
body fat relatively quickly in 

713
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,440
the grand scheme of things if 
you do it appropriately, you 

714
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:22,720
know, with a sustainable 
approach. 

715
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:26,400
So it, it makes sense in my mind
to spend the majority of one's 

716
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,480
time in a building phase. 
It's just hard to embrace the 

717
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,640
fact that, hey, I know how to 
look leaner. 

718
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,600
I can look leaner, but I am 
choosing to not so I can 

719
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,400
capitalize on this lean, this 
building phase. 

720
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,680
But when you do that, the next 
time you do lean down, you 

721
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,160
ensure that you actually look 
better than the last time you 

722
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,560
lean down as opposed to the same
or worse. 

723
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,000
Because you know, father times 
that do us any favors. 

724
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,800
We're not getting any younger. 
So maintenance is a myth. 

725
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,400
You're either getting better or 
you're worse. 

726
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,800
And I think if you do it that 
way, you ensure that you're 

727
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,480
stacking the odds in your favor 
to get better from time to time.

728
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,160
I love that last thought of 
maintenance is a myth. 

729
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,000
We talked about that a lot 
because so many people here that

730
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,680
they're going to get to 
maintenance and they think of 

731
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,080
that as well. 
Nothing's going to change, and 

732
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:13,360
it couldn't be further from the 
truth. 

733
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,040
If you're doing maintenance 
right or hopefully a slight 

734
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,880
surplus, you're gaining muscle 
and like it's like you just 

735
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,840
said, you're going to look way 
better when you do peel that fat

736
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,160
off. 
But the other thing is, as you 

737
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,920
build muscle, you're only 
increasing your metabolic 

738
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,200
engine. 
And so when it's time to peel 

739
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,560
that fat off, it's also a whole 
hell of a lot easier and you get

740
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,040
to eat way more food while you 
do it, which makes sure that you

741
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,600
can actually do it long term. 
Yeah, 100%, ma'am. 

742
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,080
It's, it's interesting because 
I'm obviously speaking to, you 

743
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,800
know, bodybuilders. 
That's, that's what I am. 

744
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,080
And people assume that these 
things wouldn't apply for me 

745
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,440
because I'm not a bodybuilder. 
But we're all human beings. 

746
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,080
And what you were describing 
with the reverse diet, with a, 

747
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,560
you know, building phase, a 
cutting phase like that is all 

748
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,000
the same for all of your 
clientele and none of them are 

749
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,520
competitors. 
So it's like these, these laws 

750
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,080
of, of biology apply because 
we're human, not because we're 

751
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:07,880
competitors or not, because 
we're at the end of the day, I 

752
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,320
was trying to tell people, look,
we're all bodybuilders. 

753
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,880
Whether you step on stage and 
posing trunks or not, that 

754
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,760
doesn't change the fact that 
you're either building up your 

755
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,880
body in a positive way or 
negative way. 

756
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,960
So you might as well do so the 
right way. 

757
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,520
I was just going to say that 
right? 

758
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:27,160
A bodybuilder is just an athlete
and an athlete or or a pro 

759
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,600
bodybuilder is just an extreme 
athlete and that is just 

760
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,720
somebody that takes what works 
for everyone across the board 

761
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,840
and pushes it to his extreme, 
which means it's still going to 

762
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,440
work for you. 
You just don't need to go as 

763
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,040
hard as the professional 
bodybuilder. 

764
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,880
Yeah, 100%, ma'am. 
That's a hard pill for people to

765
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,680
swallow. 
But like they just assume that 

766
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,320
it's something other, something 
different that is not 

767
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,600
applicable. 
They just assume that, well, you

768
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,800
know, I'm not on steroids, so 
that wouldn't work or I'm not 

769
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,440
going to step on stage, so that 
wouldn't work. 

770
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,560
But like having a defined 
building and cutting phase and 

771
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,480
capitalizing on those with the 
right method that is sustainable

772
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,720
for you regardless of your age, 
sex or whatever, like that is 

773
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:09,440
something that we would all 
benefit from. 

774
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,280
And I think the more people 
providing that messaging, the 

775
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,840
better because there are 
certainly no shortage of people 

776
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,520
that are just, you know, 
preaching this chronic 

777
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,160
restriction, you know, crash 
dating gimmick game. 

778
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,120
So I'm I'm glad to hear that you
are not in that camp. 

779
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,920
No, and it's always nice to get 
on a, on a podcast with somebody

780
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,600
like you and like just chop it 
up about these things because 

781
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,800
the conversation we're having 
right now is a massive minority 

782
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,560
in the, in the world that you 
and I live in. 

783
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,040
Well, it doesn't. 
It's not as appealing, man. 

784
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,880
Like it's, it's very hard to 
tell people, hey, look, I'm 

785
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,880
going to teach you how to eat 
more food, probably put on 

786
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,280
somebody fat and you're going to
do it for the next six months 

787
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,400
minimum, but that's going to 
allow you to be healthier than 

788
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,800
you've ever been before. 
Like that's a much harder sell 

789
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,920
to somebody not nearly as sizzly
as, you know, throwing some 

790
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,520
before and after on someone 
that's, you know, jacked on 

791
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,400
their mind on trembolone and 
eating, you know, pop tarts and 

792
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,680
stuff and saying this is how you
you get ripped. 

793
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,800
And that's just, it's not what 
salesman is. 

794
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,720
It's unfortunate because human 
nature is such that it always 

795
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,200
gravitates to this, you know, 
surface level sizzle. 

796
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,480
Whatever is easier, whatever is 
more accessible, that's what 

797
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,960
people are going to go for. 
And so, yeah, I mean, you nailed

798
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,280
it. 
We're fighting an uphill battle,

799
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,280
and in both of our worlds and 
that. 

800
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,440
Have you had a lot of people 
coming into your system asking 

801
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,600
about these Ozempic drugs, 
Wygovy, semaglutide or is that 

802
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,520
not really in the conversation? 
We have a few. 

803
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:45,720
We always shut it down pretty 
quick because we, again, we just

804
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:50,520
look at the big picture And I 
had a friend text me that I used

805
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,320
to work in the OR with actually,
and she wanted to do Ozempic. 

806
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,320
And because she was a friend, I 
had the ability to like really 

807
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,600
go in on her rather rather than 
talk to her like a potential 

808
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,320
client. 
And I was like, OK, let's look 

809
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,040
at your end result if you do 
Ozempic and if you don't do 

810
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,000
Ozempic and do it the way that 
I'd preferably like to see you 

811
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,280
do it, she's like, OK, shoot, 
like great. 

812
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,560
You do Ozempic, you absolutely 
crush your appetite to where you

813
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,560
have absolutely none. 
And you could actually go a day 

814
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,920
or two without eating because 
that's how little of an appetite

815
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,560
you have. 
Protein's the most filling 

816
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,360
macronutrient we have, and 
because of that it's even more 

817
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,760
off putting 'cause you're 
already full, so now you're 

818
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,400
eating next to no calories. 
You're having probably below 

819
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,280
your RDA of protein. 
Because of that, you have no 

820
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:34,760
energy. 
Because of that, you're not 

821
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,480
exercising. 
Because of that, you do get to 

822
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,120
your goal weight, but because of
that, you look like a saggy 

823
00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:43,800
Raisin with legs and you have no
energy. 

824
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,200
Are you happy? 
And she was like absolutely 

825
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,200
terrified. 
She's like, no, no, no, no, I'm 

826
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,520
not happy. 
I'm like, OK, cool, well, let's 

827
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,280
look at it my way. 
And so my way is the 

828
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,560
conversation you and I have had 
for the past 40 minutes. 

829
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:03,400
But after you really explain 
what the outcome is gonna be, it

830
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:04,760
becomes pretty clear on what's 
right. 

831
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,040
And especially like, it's an 
easier sell when somebody is 

832
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,080
considering Ozempic for weight 
loss and they're not getting 

833
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,600
that through insurance. 
And then Ozempic's like what, 

834
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,120
3-4, five, $600 a month, it's 
like, well, do you want to 

835
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,360
invest in that that's going to 
get you to this crappy result or

836
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,280
do you want to spend the same 
money and get you to the good 

837
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,120
result? 
And so again, that makes it 

838
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:28,880
easier. 
With that same amount of money, 

839
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,440
you can get a a solid gym 
membership and some pretty good 

840
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,720
groceries. 
You know, it's like you don't 

841
00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:38,200
need to take the drugs. 
And I feel like people like this

842
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,120
whole conversation around the 
obesity epidemic, people being 

843
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,120
overweight or underweight is, is
certainly a relevant 

844
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,360
conversation. 
But I think more often than not,

845
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,240
people need to have the 
conversation of, look, you're 

846
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:51,800
under muscled. 
You know, you are simply, you 

847
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,680
know, your composition is not 
there. 

848
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,440
Like you are not walking around 
with the optimum amount of lean 

849
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,880
tissue for your height, weight 
and stats. 

850
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,520
And I feel like if you look 
through life through the lens 

851
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:07,520
of, hey, what can I do to build 
and preserve as much lean tissue

852
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,920
as possible, then that totally 
changes the landscape on how you

853
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,640
adopt your nutrition, your 
training, your day-to-day 

854
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,960
lifestyle factor, your sleep, 
your, your party scene, the, 

855
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,960
the, the drug of choice, whether
it's alcohol, something 

856
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:24,240
different. 
Like if you, if you view the 

857
00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:27,320
world to the lens of hey, muscle
is a priority, what kind of to 

858
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,760
build and preserve as much 
linked tissue as possible. 

859
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,480
That is going to drastically 
shape how you go about your 

860
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,000
day-to-day. 
Absolutely. 

861
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:40,760
And not only that, but for the 
women we work with, they're 

862
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,120
already losing muscle even if 
they're doing most things right.

863
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,920
Like at 4050 sixty, you're 
wasting away at muscle year 

864
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:49,920
after year. 
They're also losing your bone 

865
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,400
density. 
And so that's when strength 

866
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,680
training really comes into the 
equation is because yeah, you 

867
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,960
are probably already under 
muscled, but you're also gonna 

868
00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:03,240
become more and more under 
muscled even if you just do most

869
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:05,480
things right. 
So we really need to put a focus

870
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,160
on this. 
Totally. 

871
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:08,960
What about bioidentical 
hormones? 

872
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,640
Man, I know with your client 
demographic that is a 

873
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,400
conversation that has gained 
prevalence, especially in recent

874
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,920
years. 
Yeah, I'm a fan. 

875
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,760
To be honest with you. 
That is not my specialty and so 

876
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,200
I don't dive super deep on it. 
I have had the ability to hire 

877
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,880
someone on the team that's a 
hormone specialist so that when 

878
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,640
somebody presents with low 
testosterone, yes, that's a very

879
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,240
big problem with women, by the 
way, low estrogen, low 

880
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:39,400
progesterone, we can do 
something about it. 

881
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,800
That's just not my fear of like,
what I can talk deeply on. 

882
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,720
Yeah, I would imagine too, like 
if you get these women eating 

883
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:51,720
the right foods and actually 
weight training and eating 

884
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,240
enough of the right foods, their
hormonal feedback and blood 

885
00:43:56,240 --> 00:43:58,960
markers drastically improved 
totally independent of any 

886
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:05,120
exogenous hormones. 
A lot of times, yeah, we will 

887
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,160
see cases when sometimes no. 
The other thing that I like to 

888
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,840
point out is we have a lot of 
women come in that they haven't 

889
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,640
had blood work done right. 
They just feel like crap because

890
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,680
of perimenopause, menopause or 
post menopause and under eating 

891
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,600
for years. 
And so they come in and they're 

892
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:24,160
pointing the finger at hormones,
but they're not doing any of the

893
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:25,880
foundational things that you and
I just said. 

894
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,840
So I'll always level with them. 
Like, you know what, I have a 

895
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,040
connection. 
I can get you really discounted 

896
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,040
blood work. 
I'll help you read it. 

897
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:35,040
We'll be good to go and we'll 
assess what's going on. 

898
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,320
But you don't have the right to 
do that until you've done all of

899
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,960
these foundational things first.
Because realistically, if we get

900
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,480
you on HRT but you're still 
treating your body like crap 

901
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,160
from exercise, nutrition, sleep,
recovery, stress management, 

902
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,040
nothing's gonna change. 
Yeah, I think that's the best 

903
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,080
way to look at it, man. 
Like I I don't ever wanna be, 

904
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,440
you know, Termer knows it to 
bioidentical hormones, 

905
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,400
especially with all the science 
coming up nowadays. 

906
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,320
But I feel like people turning 
to that just as they would would

907
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,160
turn to like a way go V or 
zompic without having the other 

908
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:11,720
things dialed in first and 
foremost. 

909
00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:13,880
I think that's just a a 
distraction. 

910
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,160
It's, it's, it's not where their
priorities should be, but I feel

911
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:18,880
like if they've got all that 
stuff down and then becomes a 

912
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:20,200
much more viable option for 
them. 

913
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,280
Absolutely, yeah. 
And once those things are, are 

914
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,640
in place, if if it's really not 
working, we do take a look at 

915
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,280
that and we have found that it 
can massively help. 

916
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,800
I mean, simply looking at 
progesterone for sleeping 

917
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,200
disturbances in menopause is 
huge. 

918
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,000
Or I mean, again, you were 
talking about bringing people's 

919
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,640
nutrition levels up to manage 
hormones. 

920
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,520
What I find is a lot of women 
will have low testosterone and 

921
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,320
then managing their stress 
levels, bringing stress down 

922
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:54,000
will bring up testosterone. 
And even though hormones aren't 

923
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,600
my my super educated place, I do
know that as a woman in 

924
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,880
perimenopause, your testosterone
should actually increase to 

925
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,320
combat the effects of your 
estrogen progesterone 

926
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,960
decreasing. 
And I mean testosterone's going 

927
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,160
to be made in your adrenals 
along with cortisol and it's not

928
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:15,320
going to make both at the same 
time. 

929
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,520
So if you stress your body out 
AKA under E massively, you're 

930
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,920
going to make more cortisol and 
less testosterone. 

931
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,120
Yeah, and and even before women 
get to that perimenopausal 

932
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,800
state, like when they're in 
their, you know, 20s and 30s, if

933
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,480
they are not having a regular 
cycle, more often than not, man,

934
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,240
I see it because they simply 
aren't eating enough. 

935
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:39,200
If they if they ate more food, 
more quality, nutritious food, 

936
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,000
that cycle almost always 
stabilize and returns to normal.

937
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:46,600
So, yeah, we're speaking the 
same message there for sure. 

938
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,400
Man, I'm glad to hear that I'm 
not the only one shouting this 

939
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,280
from the rooftops. 
No, Sir, we're doing it. 

940
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,520
We are doing it well. 
Let's let's switch gears 

941
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:55,880
slightly, man. 
We got a few minutes left here. 

942
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,440
I want to hear about things from
like a business standpoint. 

943
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,240
I love business just as I love 
bodybuilding. 

944
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,200
So you've been coaching now for 
how long? 

945
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,680
Six years. 
Six years and you get the the 

946
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,840
website, you get women coming 
in. 

947
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,960
Are you doing like a group 
setting with them or what? 

948
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,760
What have you found to be the 
most successful? 

949
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,200
Like a group setting, Like a 
one-on-one. 

950
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:16,720
Yeah. 
So we just do one-on-one 

951
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:18,960
coaching. 
We have 4 coaches that work on 

952
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,400
the team aside from me. 
So we have a registered 

953
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,080
dietitian, she's our head coach,
a hormone specialist, a behavior

954
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:25,960
change specialist, and a mindset
specialist. 

955
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,360
And every coach, well every 
client is assigned 1 primary 

956
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,920
coach. 
But at the same time like I 

957
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,200
hired these men and women that 
have different specialties for a

958
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,440
reason. 
Like I want every client to 

959
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,160
benefit from everyone. 
So for that reason, all of our 

960
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,440
clients, even though it's 
one-on-one Monday through 

961
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,440
Friday, there's always a support
call that's in a group setting 

962
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,000
with every coach. 
Nice. 

963
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,360
That's very cool. 
I like that model. 

964
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,400
What have you found to be the 
best way to get people into the 

965
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,040
system to to learn about you to 
just kind of get that initial 

966
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,040
touch point? 
Just so that they hear about me 

967
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:07,240
and hear about what we do. 
Yeah, this podcast, right? 

968
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,240
Podcasts have been huge before 
that. 

969
00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:13,400
And I mean, if anybody goes to 
my Instagram, you'll see it. 

970
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,160
We're doing 3 reels a day. 
Some of it's fun, some of it's 

971
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,640
educational, some of it's meant 
to kind of poke you a little bit

972
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,440
and make you question if you're 
doing the right thing. 

973
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,280
And it works. 
But nothing works better than 

974
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,320
you and I having a real 
conversation and someone forming

975
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:31,440
an opinion of like, you know 
what? 

976
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,480
I hate this guy. 
I'm not going to listen to him 

977
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,800
or I love Joe. 
I love how he talks. 

978
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:37,560
I love his mission. 
I love why he does it. 

979
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:38,960
I'm going to spend time with 
him. 

980
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:44,520
And so that's just, that's been 
what's been the most helpful for

981
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,320
us to spread our message and 
help more people. 

982
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:47,720
Yeah. 
And I feel like kind of like we 

983
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:50,760
were saying earlier, you can't 
really get this depth of a 

984
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,000
message out in a sizzle reel 
nearly as you know you as well 

985
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,160
as you can for via long form 
medium. 

986
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,440
And podcasting just bodes so 
well for long form medium 

987
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,280
because we can go deep. 
So I think that makes total 

988
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,480
sense. 
Yep, exactly. 

989
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:04,440
What about you? 
Same thing. 

990
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,200
Yeah, I love the podcasting. 
I'm, I'm not doing a really good

991
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,520
job at getting like, I haven't 
promoted myself as a podcast 

992
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,680
guest because I'm always just 
hosting the podcast. 

993
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,280
So I need to actually start 
pitching myself to other 

994
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,880
podcasts. 
I've been on a few, but I just 

995
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,880
love hosting because it's cool 
for me to be a host. 

996
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,320
I just get to learn from other 
people, bring them on, learn 

997
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,320
their story, kind of a deep 
dive, but I need to start, you 

998
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,400
know, ramping up the promotional
efforts to get on other people's

999
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,480
podcast. 
But yeah, podcast has been 

1000
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,920
monumental for me. 
Realistically, like if we're 

1001
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,600
talking from a business 
standpoint, it should still be 

1002
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,760
helpful to help you grow. 
Cause like you're, my audience 

1003
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,160
is gonna hear this podcast and 
if they love you, they're gonna 

1004
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,200
make, you know, I want to go 
spend more time with Robert. 

1005
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,360
And so you should be like 
feeling my audience a little bit

1006
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,360
and everybody else's. 
Do you find that that happens? 

1007
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,080
Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. 
I mean, I've got this will be 

1008
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,240
episode 700 something. 
So I've got so many podcasts and

1009
00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:02,160
so for so many years that yeah, 
it kind of has this like you 

1010
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,800
cast a really deep wide net with
the podcast for sure. 

1011
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:06,560
And everybody kind of 
reciprocates because it's 

1012
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,840
mutually beneficial for both 
parties on a podcast. 

1013
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,960
So I'm all for as long as it's a
good fit. 

1014
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,560
You know, I've had some people 
pitch their podcast to me and 

1015
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,680
it's just that they've obviously
not done any research on who I 

1016
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,200
am. 
So it's just a very clearly and 

1017
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,360
not a good fit. 
Not to say that I wouldn't bring

1018
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,400
people on that I know that I 
disagree with because I think 

1019
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,040
that's healthy as well. 
I don't ever want to become, you

1020
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,800
know, close minded towards 
things, but I like bringing 

1021
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,440
people on that, you know, have 
like, I don't want to bring 

1022
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,840
somebody on talking about, you 
know, some crazy off the wall 

1023
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,840
topic that is not relevant 
whatsoever, but this is 

1024
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,760
incredibly relevant talking 
about reverse diving. 

1025
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:41,800
Yeah, exactly. 
I'm with you. 

1026
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:43,600
And I used to be that way. 
Actually. 

1027
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,960
I would get on any podcast I 
possibly could. 

1028
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,080
And I quickly realized that is 
not the way to go. 

1029
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,760
So I'll get invited on or I'll 
have people want to be online. 

1030
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,360
So you know what, I don't have 
anything against you personally,

1031
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,320
but I just don't think it's 
going to serve my mission. 

1032
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,120
And so same with you, I just 
won't do it anymore. 

1033
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,920
Yeah. 
And I mean for you as a podcast 

1034
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,760
guest, like it, it takes a lot 
of time. 

1035
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,120
Like it takes a lot of time to, 
you know, give your spiel, talk 

1036
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:12,840
to people, lay out what your 
mission is. 

1037
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,240
And if their audience is not 
receptive to that at all, then 

1038
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,560
then you've, you know, wasted 
that time. 

1039
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,160
Not 100% waste because you just 
gained the clarity of, hey, 

1040
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,240
look, this was not a good fit. 
But you you get more honed in as

1041
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:27,520
to what would and would not be, 
you know, and a worthwhile use 

1042
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:29,960
of your time. 
Yep, absolutely. 

1043
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:31,800
I love it ma'am. 
I love it. 

1044
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,520
Well, if there's anything I can 
do to to spread the message 

1045
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,800
further, you just let me know. 
Because like I said, the more 

1046
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,840
people shouting from the 
rooftops about the importance 

1047
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,160
and significance reverse 
batting, I think the better 

1048
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,760
because it is not widely 
understood at all, but so very 

1049
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,040
important whether you're a 
competitor or a 60 year old 

1050
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,720
female that wants to improve her
health because she's been 

1051
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:52,160
chronically eating for the past 
40 years. 

1052
00:51:53,720 --> 00:51:54,600
I love it. 
Yeah. 

1053
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:57,400
I think we went back and forth 
on this and, you know, a little 

1054
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,240
bit, but if it's OK with you, I 
would love to give one of your 

1055
00:52:00,240 --> 00:52:04,400
listeners some free coaching. 
Three months of free coaching. 

1056
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,200
That's it. 
So if you're cool with that, let

1057
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,560
me know and I'll kind of share 
how I see this playing out. 

1058
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,880
Yeah, Rock'n'roll man. 
Cool. 

1059
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:17,520
So for anyone that resonated and
doesn't hate the 30 year old guy

1060
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,040
that helps 60 year old women 
will toss a link in the show 

1061
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:25,200
notes and in there all I need is
your name, your phone number, 

1062
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,240
your e-mail. 
That's how I'm going to contact 

1063
00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:29,840
you if you're the winner. 
And then the last box is a 

1064
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,320
really, really compelling reason
as to why you think you should 

1065
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,480
be the winner of three months of
pre coaching. 

1066
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,680
And if we choose you when you 
get in there, the only thing 

1067
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,320
we're going to sell you is how 
successful you can be. 

1068
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,240
We're going to coach you for 
free for six months. 

1069
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,840
Three months, love. 
It love it. 

1070
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,080
Can't beat that offer, man. 
Can't beat that. 

1071
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,320
I didn't think so. 
Well, I will definitely put that

1072
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,600
in the show notes. 
What what is the the link to 

1073
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,640
the, the website, the homepage, 
the socials? 

1074
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,600
Where's can people find you? 
Yeah, So it's just Hoy fit.com. 

1075
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,880
I'm very, very searchable, just 
like I'm sure you are, Robert. 

1076
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,440
So just search Joe Hoy. 
You'll find me on Google, on 

1077
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,080
Instagram, on Facebook, on all 
the things Internet. 

1078
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:11,240
Awesome brother. 
Well, I will definitely link 

1079
00:53:11,240 --> 00:53:12,840
out. 
Make it easy people to find you.

1080
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,280
Put that link in the show notes.
And like I said man, there's 

1081
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:16,960
everything I can do for you. 
You just let me know, brother. 

1082
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:19,200
Same to you. 
Thank you so much. 

1083
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:20,240
You bet. 
See you, Joe.