Hello, ladies and gents Robert Sykes keto, Savage.com.
And today, I've got special guest at Vanessa spider on the
line and we're going to dive into all kinds of things.
Protein is thin fasting, protein sparing modified fast, high fat
versus high protein versus low fat versus low protein, all the
goods, all of the stuff that's controversial right now in the
keto, low carb carnivore space. I've got a lot of respect for
Vanessa, what she does her messaging and the waves, she is
making in the community, so I was super excited to dive into
all of these topics. Can I get her take on?
Them and see what is the most optimal way for people to
approach to nutrition? I learned a ton.
I have no doubt that you will as well.
Without further Ado, sit back, relax.
Enjoy the podcast with Vanessa Vanessa.
How are you? I'm doing fantastic.
How are you today? Robert I'm doing wonderfully.
Well, so for those that don't know, we just got done recording
on your podcast and every time I do it back-to-back episode, it
all kind of Blends together in my mind.
So hopefully we don't cover things that we already covered
thinking that we haven't. But I'm super excited to talk
with you again. Yeah.
And so fun and I'm still just feeling so excited for you guys.
You know that you just shared your wonderful news.
So it was really fun to get to talk about that on the podcast.
Yeah. Yeah I'd love to dive into that
Spectrum on on this show as well with regard to what you've
experienced because you so just kind of bring us up to speed.
I didn't realize this until you pointed out on our recording,
but the last time you and I had spoke on a podcast was in 2019,
which just Seems mind-boggling to me, it's wild.
Yeah, crazy lot A lot has happened since 2019.
Yes. Yeah.
And it's, we had a similar sort of thing.
As, you know, you guys, you know, we were kind of living in
a temporary kind of situation while we were building our new
place and we finally got to move in in the spring and then you
know, the baby came right after. So it was like, house baby like
all that stuff. And, you know, similarly I've
been working on a product which I told you about, so just a lot
of, like, parallels there, but it is amazing.
You know, to think back 20, 19 things were so different and how
quickly life can change, you know, to all of a sudden be
living in a new home and have a baby and and all that stuff.
Well, I gotta tip my hat to you because you have absolutely been
killing it from a from a Business and Entrepreneurship
standpoint. I mean, it looks like your brand
is just continue to grow. I mean people people refer back
to your podcast all the time, many of my clients listen to all
the content that you're putting out there so you're definitely
Making Waves out there. Thank you.
That's so nice of you to say. It's it's so awesome because I
think like we also talked about. I used to work in finance and
you did too and, you know, finances such a like sexy
industry to be an especially when you work in the stock
market. Like I really had a lot of fun
doing that but there was no fulfillment, you know on a sort
of inner fulfillment from that because you're just making
people more money who already have a lot of money.
Like there's just, not a lot of it's not very But then to be
able to shift into something that's been my passion.
In never, I never ever feel like I'm working when I am working on
this business because you know, it's my passion and I love
helping people and I know like you said you just getting those
emails from people that, you know, something you said on a
podcast or some content that you put out shifted something for
them to change their life in a small way for the better.
It makes what you do so fulfilling.
So thanks for saying that. Really appreciate it.
Yeah, yeah, totally for me, but it doesn't have any background
on you. They should definitely listen to
our prior podcast but just to kind of bring them up to speed.
When was it that you left the financial sector and just
started building? What is now your brain and
business? Within the keto low carb space?
Yes, I started ketogenic girl. As my side hustle, I always
really like to encourage people to do that.
If you have something that you're really passionate about,
you know, do it while you still have.
Coming in from your main hustle because you'll have so much less
stress doing it. And so for me, you know I had
been working in the stock market.
I've had my Securities license was doing that right after I
graduated University and I was doing that for a while and then
in 2014 I started sort of doing intermittent fasting trying out
keto for myself and I started the blog was around around that
time like June 2015. And I was doing it just for fun
but also, you know, hoping that it could grow into something
more and then it got to the point where, you know, I was
doing building ketogenic girl, you know, people were asking me
for a meal plans, constantly, and I just decided to create
some and then the income from the business became better than
what I was doing with my job in finance, and that's when I made
the switch. And completely stopped doing
that. So I really waited until the
income was equated and then it seemed like okay well this is
now I have to turn my full attention and you know, if
you're really really passionate about something you love doing
it, it won't feel like work when you're doing it in the evenings.
You know, I remember that first year, Pete still gives me shit
for those. But that first year, I worked
through all of Christmas Eve and Christmas Day because someone
had ordered some meal plans and I had to To finalize them.
And, you know, he had to go spend all of Christmas Eve and
Christmas Day by himself. So we were in Prague at the time
and, you know, it's it's that, you know, hustle you sometimes
have to do it when it's not convenient but, you know, it
definitely is worth it. Yeah, I think, you know, that's
often times gets left unsaid but like the things that you have to
sacrifice in order to get the initial momentum going is, yeah,
like it doesn't seem like a sacrifice to the person doing it
off. Has because it makes, I mean,
such like a like you feel convicted about what you're
doing, but for the people that are close to you, that don't
really get it yet. It's like, what in the world are
you doing with your life right now?
I remember when I, when I proposed a crystal, when she had
just won her competition and I proposed to her on stage that
night in the hotel room, like, you know, had the celebratory
meal, all that stuff. And then most people probably
aren't working after they, you know, just get engaged.
I'm sitting there at the table and the hotel room editing that
That YouTube Vlogs I can go out the same day that all, that just
happened. It's just like crazy little
things like that, that you don't really think about it.
Until after the fact that it's like, the little moments that
you cherish, you know? Yeah.
It is it's all part of the adventure of running your own
business and there's a lot of stress that comes with it.
So you really have to appreciate those.
Those winds in the moments that make it, you know, feel worth
it. Hmm, totally.
So when we were talking on your pain, Cast, we were tucked
discussing some of the, you know, the, the bubbles, the
Hypes, the trends within the keto low carb space and you, and
I have both been putting out content for about the same
amount of time. Now, since 2014-15, somewhere
that window, when we started and in doing that, we've seen quite
a few Trends. Come and go right now.
It seems as though, protein has been given the Halo and fat is
kind of almost, I don't know, villainize is the right word,
but it's definitely been. Knocked down a few pedestals
with regard to what people are prioritizing and I'd love to
kind of get your take on that and just the trends in general.
Like what are some of the things that you've seen come and go and
what seems to stick and what seems to not within the keto
carnivore low-carb space. Yeah, absolutely.
It's a great question. I know that the two biggest
trends that I've really seen pop up in the last few years has
been this push for higher protein, and also like extreme
fasting. It's been like, the two things
that I've really seen, you know, pop up and, and take over and
the one I think is a great thing.
The other one, maybe not so much the protein on the protein side.
I think it's been really beneficial for people to not to
learn not to fear protein on keto, because there is a lot of
information out there about doing keto and, you know, like
you and I just spoke about some people, you know, recommend or
Advocate to have like, you know, No 20 to 30 grams of protein a
day, will you get into ketosis doing?
That definitely, you'll get into ketosis doing that.
But is that good for maintaining maintaining your lean mass?
Is it good for, you know, building lean mass?
You know, definitely not. So that's kind of a side of
Quito where I think people were fearing protein for a while
because it is one of those things that, you know, are
levers that if you pull down on it and you suppress your protein
intake, you will Higher ketones. And there was this, you know,
there is this aspect to Quito. We're having higher ketones.
Doesn't necessarily always mean that you're then going to be
burning body fat. And so, you know, people might
be really not suppressing carbs, almost nothing restricting.
Protein to very, very low levels even 40 or 50 grams which is
sort of around where the RDI are recommended.
Daily intake is and then getting in lots of calories from fat.
But if their goal Goal is specifically fat loss, that may
not be the most helpful thing. If their goal is specifically
body recomposition, it may not be the most helpful thing to
restrict protein to those low-level.
So I've loved seeing this conversation evolved about what
is optimal protein. You know for an individual if
they want to recompose their body towards lower fat Mass you
know maintain or have higher greater lean mass and be as
healthy and a strong that they can be doing that and I think
that you know learning That adequate protein could be around
as you and I were just talking about one gram of protein per
pound of lean mass, and you can determine that doing a body scan
figuring out how much lean mass you actually have and where your
protein should be. There's also sort of this other
concept that I learned from dr. Don Lemon.
And dr. Gabriel lion, which is just, you
know, making sure that your minimum protein intake is around
90 grams of protein per day. And you can, you know, do that
in across three meals a day 30? Each time you're going to
trigger the leucine threshold because you're Lucy and the
amino acid. Leucine will increase by 2 to 3
grams in your blood and so that will trigger muscle protein
synthesis. It's a great way to make sure
you get enough protein to maintain your lean mass and
maybe even grow it to depending on what you're doing, you know,
with your exercise and that sort of thing as you and I, you know,
talked about there is also the other side of it, which is how
much protein is too much protein.
Teen and glorifying protein to the point where you're always
doing high protein and its really, really high.
It may be too high and Beyond what your body actually needs.
So, you know, I think it's important to just talk about
optimal protein and what that sweet spot is for the
individual. And higher protein, doesn't
necessarily mean, you know, eating just all of your calories
from protein or doing like upwards of 40 45, 50 percent of
your calories coming in from protein.
Yeah. I totally, totally agree.
I think a lot of the, the issue comes in that people want these
bite-sized memes that showcase how much they should eat, what
they should eat. And then expect that to solve
other problems, and it does just so much more context that needs
to be discussed. Then you can't put on a meme it
won't fit on the Instagram graphic and I feel like that
push to just make things so simple that it just you know
oversimplifies the entire process and is supposed to be
like a blanket statement that The masses can oftentimes do
more harm than good and causes Mass confusion because I feel
like a lot of people view me as a higher fat guy.
Lot of people view you as a higher protein person, but as we
just discussed on your show are actual protein.
Recommendations are pretty much the same.
So I'm like, I like that. You say optimal protein.
I've been like people asking me what type of diet that I follow?
And oftentimes say, I'm high fat optimal protein and low to no
carb. And I feel like That optimal
protein is something that we both have in common because
depending on the goals depending on the person depending on their
history, that protein may look a little bit different from person
to person. But I'd hundred percent agree
that this massive push for minimal protein is certainly not
optimal and this massive push for exceedingly.
High. Protein is also certainly not
optimal, so optimal protein is optimal.
Exactly. That's really funny.
You said that, you know, we both sort of make the same
recommendations and You know, you are perceived as more of the
high fat person, you know? But that doesn't always equate,
like, low protein. I don't know, you know, why?
It sort of seems to be your high fat, your low protein.
And if you're high protein, then people think you're low fat
which I get on my end and I'm like, no, no, no, this doesn't
mean zero fat. You have to make sure that you
get healthy fats and because you need energy from One Source,
you're not getting it from carbs.
So, you know, it's they don't have to Mutually exclusive.
Yeah totally totally agree and I feel like and we kind of touched
on this a little bit and the other episode is that a lot of
it really just stems from you know, how many calories you
consume because if you're consuming, you know, very, very
low calories and you're trying to consume optimal protein for
your you, nobody stats, then you're not really going to have
much of a lot meant left for fats, or fat, or carbs or fat,
depending on what you're trying to use as your primary fuel
source. So, if you're trying to hit up
some protein, but you're not Not eating enough in general.
Your kind of shooting yourself in the foot and if you're over
consuming, you're not obviously going to be doing the yourself,
any favors either. So the total caloric intake is
going to have a direct impact on the allotment for protein and
your fuel source whether that be fat or carbs.
And I feel like, you know, people are chronically under
eating people are chronically overeating and people have just
kind of kind of lost context of how many calories they need to
be able to function at an optimal rate.
It's Lee not sub 1000 calories. As I see a lot of people
recommending and it's also probably not 5,000 calories.
Right. And I think it depends
specifically on what your goal is and what you're optimizing
for, you know, based on the individuals needs and and
knowing that those can shift and change and there are times when
you know you're going to want to, you know, maybe change
things up and bump up your protein, a little bit higher,
drop your fat, a little bit lower if you are sort of cutting
and that's a nice way for people to look at it, instead of just
looking at the calories, right. And I know that you You talked a
lot about macros as well. It's like, well, you know, if
you're going into a leaning out period, I'm cutting.
So I'm going to drop my fat a little bit, I'm going to bump up
my protein a little bit, you know, that kind of thing versus
just I'm going to cut calories across the board and especially
for doing resistance training. You can utilize that that
protein really well. But then if you are optimizing
for things like fertility, or pregnancy, or just hormonal
health, or if you're sort of healing, From some kind of
condition, you want your body to be able to get into homeostasis
and, you know, not getting enough energy and you're gonna,
you know, not you're not going to be able to experience those
healing benefits through restricting calories and that
way. Yeah, totally agree.
I mean, calories as a word should not be a bad word like
calories. Should, I mean calories are
simply energy, its Fuel and I feel like if people thought of
calories as such, then that would be a much better
relationship with that. Because if you're, if you're
trying to fuel yourself or energize yourself properly,
calories are seen in a much different context than just, you
know, the old adage of calories in calories out.
You know, constantly got lose weight, lose weight, lose
weight, it just becomes this, very negative self-talk that
pushes people to under consume calories in general.
Yeah. And I also I loved one of the
things I kind of learned from dr.
Ted Naaman was changing up the way that you you know, you
conceptualize these different things.
So we have macros and we look at macros versus calories.
There's this other dimension, which is sort of protein and
energy and then, you know, looking into the biochemistry of
things. What is it that makes up fuel or
energy and what is it? That makes up sort of building
blocks or Seen it that's been really helpful.
I know for myself to learn. Well you know, carbs and fat are
on the energy side, the fuel side and you want that to be
your fuel either carbons in the form of carbohydrates or carbons
coming from your hydrocarbons or fat.
And then protein is not fuel, it should be potential fuel but
it's really your body's way of getting amino acids that it
needs to get every day because as you know, it's an essential
macronutrient, you have to get these Nine essential amino acids
everyday. So you look at protein as
building blocks for your body and you should look at fat and
carbs as fuel. You want to choose the
healthiest forms of those carbons, whether it's low
starch, you know, lower glycemic carbohydrates and the fats I'd
you want healthy whole fats coming from Whole Foods.
You know, a lot of animal-based saturated fats and not the
vegetable refined, you know, oils and things.
On the protein side because that's not your fuel.
If you eat too much of it, then it will potentially turn into
your fuel which you don't want. If you don't get enough of it
then you won't have enough building blocks, you know to
restore and recompose your body properly.
So I like looking at it from that Dimension as well.
And like you said, it's so much more than just calories.
Mmm. Yeah, I think you know, a lot of
people are viewing protein as a substrate for energy and that's
just not good. Like, you're We're going to
perform at an Optimum rate. If you're trying to
inefficiently use gluconeogenesis to take the
protein, you're consuming as and convert that into a fuel source,
it's just never going to be optimal.
So I think that view is very, very well Warrenton, speaking of
calories, and I guess the lack of calories.
I'd love to talk about what you mentioned in alluded to earlier,
which is this discussion of long term, extended fasting just
fasting in general and I feel like there I feel like fasting
has a lot of positives that come with it.
I mean, there are most definitely benefits that can
come from fasting, but I feel like there's been a lot of
overuse of fasting and like something like intermittent
fasting in which, you know, over the course of a 24-hour, period.
You're not your, you have a period in which you're not
consuming food, I think that is totally fine.
I pretty much do that daily myself, but from an extended
fasting standpoint, I feel like that is often times overused as
well and has a similar effect. To Chronic under eating because
at the end of the day, if your average intake is just not
sufficient, which is going to be hard to do.
If you're having several days of non-consumption, it's going to
have just the same effect as chronically under eating with
have. Yeah, I love that.
He brought this topic. That was the other Trend that I,
you know, we've both seen come up in the space.
And I think I have to preface this by saying, I think fasting
is one of the most powerful, ancient healing tools in the
world, you know, Hippocrates. The founder of medicine.
He had a floor and his Hospital in Greece where he just fasted
people for disease states. Pathologies it is amazing for
restoring health, in the body, to just cut off your cut
yourself off from all food and just let your body heal.
I think it's incredibly powerful for that for a tapa G.
I'm a big fan of doing like seasonal, fasts or five to seven
days and you know really just getting that etapa, g recycling,
all those misfolded. Canal's and proteins and you
know, really pushing that. You can also get a lot of etapa,
G from exercise, a huge amount from exercise.
So you know you don't necessarily have to go to that
extreme. But what I really don't like is
when fasting is used for the purpose of fat loss because I
think it has more - you know, metabolic adaptations then, you
know, other approaches, you know, sort of like doing a
caloric deficit because, you know, a lot of there are people
out there who say that it doesn't.
Slow your metabolic rate, it actually ramps it up but I don't
see how that's physiologically possible because of part of your
metabolic rate is the thermic effect of food.
So if you don't have the thermic effect of food, then your
metabolic rate goes down just from that.
And then there's other aspects that slow down, you know, when
no food is coming in, just like you said, when you're on a very
restricted, dietary intake from a calories, so, you know, you're
going to be really pushing, you know, on your body, pushing your
body too. Really stress it in a way to
achieve this result. And I think ultimately people
are using fasting for fat loss. They will find that when they go
back to eating anything, they're going to put weight back on and
because the metabolic - metabolic adaptations, they're
probably going to regain what they lost.
So it's a lot of like sacrifice and pushing and stress on the
body when I think that there's other ways of going about it and
some people love doing extended fasting for fat loss.
You know I respect Get anyone's choice or decision in doing
that, but I personally don't think it's the best way to lose
fat. I think that there's, you know,
other approaches that are just much better in terms of fat loss
because the there's two parts of the equation.
You know, when you lose weight is the maintaining, the loss is
the second part that we don't really focus on a lot, but you
can successfully lose weight. But if you're not able to
maintain that loss and you just regain it.
But you're you're not suffering but also your body composition
is worse off because you know, you often lose maybe during
fasting mostly body fat some lean mass Even though that's
also very much debated, you will lose a little bit of a mess and
then when you put weight back on you're not putting muscle back
on you just put that back on so you could end up having a worse
off body composition over the years as opposed to if you you
know just do a caloric deficit and make sure that you're
prioritizing protein you know, and doing you know, strength
training exercise, you know and maybe adding in some cardio as
well. Like there's different things
that you can do. Do you know to lose fat that
don't require going to those kinds of extremes?
Yeah, I agree. I feel like you know as you and
I both stated there's there's absolutely a place for extended
fasting and I certainly don't want to discredit that by any
means because a lot of people see tremendous benefits from it
however, and I don't want to do any blanket statements either.
But I like where you're coming from with regard to using
extended fasting, with the intention of fat loss is Is
probably not the best way of going about it.
And I wholeheartedly agree and there probably are some
situations in which that may be the most efficient way to go
about it. But I certainly don't think
doing extended fasting with the primary objective of losing body
fat is optimal. I always tell people to, you
know, don't do extended fast while you're in a deficit.
That's just too many stressors on the body being in a deficit,
can be a stress on the body. Doing this in a fast, can be a
stretch from the body to having. Both simultaneously is just too
much of a Stress for the body to optimize for the primary goal.
The only time I really ever do extended fasting is just
intermittently when I'm in a surplus, but it's never with the
intention of losing. Bonnie, felt like if I'm in a
surplus, I'm trying to optimize for building muscle and you
know, being an energy balance Surplus.
However, constantly being in a surplus, can have a, you know,
an adverse effect to like it's harder on your digestive system.
It's honestly just kind of tiring to constantly be
Consuming a surplus of food. So, randomly, throughout a
building phase, all intermittent are all in a Implement, a few
days of extended fasting. Just to get my digestive tract,
a break. Give my psyche, my mental state
a break from just constantly eating, but then I'm right back
into a surplus. There's not near the stressor on
the body as if I was doing that in the context of a deficit.
Yeah, exactly. Are using it strategically.
And as you pointed out, it's so important for the body to go
into the fasted state every day and not be perpetually in the
FED State, you know. And you can do that if you're
nourishing your body really well, you'll notice that you
will naturally fast between your meals and that's always been a
big indicator for me of. Are you doing keto really?
Well, if you're not snacking between meals then.
You're eating well at your meals.
That's really a good indicator feedback that you're fat fueled,
because you're not you know, crashing in between meals and
you're able to just sustain yourself off of what you've
eaten and also maybe some of your stored body fat as opposed
to. You know, if you're feeling
hungry between meals, then you're constantly in that fed
State and you're not eating well at your meals and you're maybe
not so fat adapted. If you can't go for those
stretches between meals and It doesn't happen as soon as you
start key, do you know it takes time, you know, for the body to
become really well, fat adapted, but it is a great indicator that
you're doing it. Well, if you can, if you can
naturally just fast or you're like, wow, it's 6:00.
And I haven't eaten, you know, since my, my 11:00 a.m. meal or
twelve PM meal and and I didn't even think about food the whole
time. Like, that's, that's really good
indicator that you're fat field and you're doing it.
Well, totally, I don't know what your stance is on this.
So I'm curious We may actually have a disagreement on this one,
but I'd love to get your opinion on protein, sparing modified
fast, which have also seemed to grow in popularity in recent
months. Yeah, I think we might and
disagree on this. I think that they are a great
tool because I compared them to Extended fasting for fat loss
and you know as dr. Ted Naman pointed out.
It's a really great tool for obese patients, who You are
losing to lose, looking to lose a lot of weight.
Before they go in for some kind of weight loss surgery like a
bariatric surgery, he's seen tremendous success on this but
if you go back on the history of protein, sparing modified fast,
they were invented by these two, men at Harvard and they first
implemented protein sparing modified fast to help their
obese patients. And over the period of time,
that they were doing a protein sparing modified fast, which was
defined as C. 50 to 800 calories, mostly from protein
for a set period of time. You know, not for an extended
period of time that their patients that they worked with
Lawson average of 40 to 50 pounds during that time.
And it was extremely successful more successful than anything
else they did. And also people were not hungry,
because they were not getting in, you know, much energy.
Most of what they were eating was just protein and they didn't
Really, you know, have negative effects on their body
composition. So the only thing that happened
is at the end of it. They found that they couldn't do
it anymore, even though it was so effective because the only
way for those people to transition after they lost the
weight and maintain, it successfully would be to do keto
and they believed that saturated fats would kill you.
So they didn't think it was ethically, you know, responsible
for them to That they do that. So they actually completely left
that field of work because they were like well there's nothing
we can do here, we can successfully get patients to
lose weight body fat, you know, very successfully.
But then afterwards we don't know what to tell them to
maintain those results. So I think it's an excellent
tool for fat loss and just for fat loss and it should be done
you know, during a set period of time and not overly used and I I
personally would prefer it for people who are looking to lose
fat over total fasting. If people are doing no extended
fasting, and not eating all week, or, you know, for several
weeks at a time instead to be taking in some protein during
that time and taking in, you know, the six food 50 to 800 of
lean protein and then doing refeeds, you know, on the
weekends or you know, maybe doing it two to three times a
week. You know, and not doing it
excessively. I think that it can be an
effective tool and I prefer it to people doing fat loss if
that's sort of the two options. But overall, I think that if you
really want to have a great weight loss in a sustainable
way, it's much better to do, sort of a 20, maybe 30 percent
deficit of your overall calories and, you know, have that deficit
coming from either, you know, the energy from fat.
Or carbs, depending, if you're doing, you know, keto or not and
that's going to be really sustainable and it will work for
people. Some people, they try that and
it doesn't work so, you know, I think the protein sparing
modified fasting is a better alternative to fasting when I
see there you go. We don't disagree too much.
I agree with with you in that the protein sparing modified
fast with, you know, an extreme deficit but still getting in
some Dean is very much so a better alternative than extended
fasting with the primary objective being fat loss.
However, I think this basically just the better of two evils, so
to speak. Like it's, yeah, yeah, like it
neither one is really great if the primary objective is fat
loss, like, I don't think it's optimal to be consuming the same
caloric intake as is recommended for a six month old infant, you
know, in a grown adult. Now if everything else has been
exhausted and they're like a life and death situation,
Situation of they've got to lose the fat in order to you know
survive then yeah that's obviously a better alternative
but I don't like how so many people are just you know,
gravitating towards protein sparing, modified fast and
overdoing it. And oftentimes they're there,
they'll turn their average caloric intake, is still far
far, far too low. Like many of the
recommendations. I've seen have been for p SM, F
days of, you know, five, six seven hundred calories.
But then returning back to their, you know, quote unquote
normal day which is Only 1,100 1,200 1,300 calories which I
think is just not adequate for. You know, the vast majority of
the adults out there. Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard
if you know someone has been dieting for, you know, a long
time and their metabolic rate is is not super high, you know,
sometimes they just won't be getting results, you know, doing
it. And, you know, obviously, the
best thing would be to like, reverse diet and, you know, get
your calories back up and then do a cut, you know, at a
deficit, that's something that's sustainable, you know, but there
are situations Engines where, you know, I guess people want to
faster results and to me, it seems like you said, yeah, maybe
it is the lesser of two evils but I don't know, I think the
jury's out on that, you know, I haven't personally tested it to
do it. Like that's something that I,
you know, would like probably would like to pass it to know
more about it and how you feel on it and all of that.
But if someone's doing it and they're feeling great, you know,
like I said, I prefer it to Just not eating any food.
Yeah. You know and as you know there
are people who are just always going to want like faster
results who are going to want to go to the extremes.
And and I, you know, I would rather that people choose, you
know, something that's maybe a little bit easier or less
stressful than total fasting. Yeah, I feel like this, you
know, desire for a quick fixes. Oftentimes the, the main
catalyst for people doing these Dangerous that diets and I think
that just does more harm than good as well.
I mean the the sustainability factors should be a Paramount
significant regardless of the diet you're following.
And if you're looking at it, through the lens of what is the
most sustainable and you know, healthiest especially over time.
It's never going to point to some crash diet, that is
miserable and leaves. You feeling terrible for a very
short period of time. Not like, let me challenge you
on this. What if you You did it and you
felt great the whole time. For one instance, or just, you
know, repetitive use like say you were doing a cut for a
competition and you did, this is hypothetical obviously because I
know you wouldn't do it but if you did a protein sparing
modified fast, you know, for like four weeks or something,
and you felt awesome while you're doing it, like you didn't
feel deprived and you didn't feel like you were struggling
you just felt good on it. Then would that change the way
that you think about it? From what I talk to people who
do try it. They love it.
They really enjoy it. So I think that that's probably
also why I like I'm not so opposed to it.
Yeah yeah I certainly don't ever want to discredit people that
have found success with something that is a little bit
more On The Fringe. So I've been if it's working for
them and they feel better than the and they're seeing the
positive results then that's good news, you know?
Like I'm never going to say that that's a bad thing.
I feel and I've seen a lot of people that have done these
protein, sparing modified fast and they'll try to continue
their day-to-day activities from like a training standpoint.
So if you're if you're consuming, yeah, 600 calories,
and you're trying to optimize for preserving as much lean mass
as possible via resistance training, or you probably
wouldn't be doing protein, sparing modified fast in a
building phase, but even if you are, maintaining your normal
day-to-day activity in your training, it's not going to bode
well to muscle preservation. If you're just that steep in a
depth, especially if you return to a quote-unquote normal day
and that's also in a pretty significant deficit, that's not
going to be the best from a lean mass retention standpoint.
Yeah I can't imagine doing that. If you're trying to gain muscle
you pretty hard. Yeah.
It would be it would be
difficult for sure and I feel like you know a lot of people
kind of goes back to what we're saying on Europe podcast is that
so much of this is psychological so you can't possibly take to
Unique Individuals and then put them in the exact Same context
and expect the same results because, you know, one person
might find higher protein to be more satiating.
One person might find higher fat to be more satiating and there's
this big back and forth as to, you know, things being black and
white. Like there's a people, there's a
group that says, proteins more satiating.
There's a group of his fats, more station satiating their
scuba says, carbs are more satiating, but I've talked to
individuals on all ends of the spectrum and they all have their
own unique opinion, as to, what's more satiating and
satiety is kind of an individual perspective, like, Who's to say
that one's more satisfying, the other, if the person disagrees,
you know? Yeah.
I think I think that those are really good points and it is
interesting to see how hotly debated it is.
What is more satiating? I definitely fall in the protein
camp, for me, I find protein to be the most satiating
macronutrient and a lot of that has been based on some amazing
research that I've seen by dr. David Robin Heimer.
And Stephen Simpson, who Who wrote this?
Fantastic book how to eat like the animals.
And it was all done in these studies where they had, you
know, they prioritize protein. And they saw that, it made
people very, very lean. And so, you know, they had this,
you know, caveat which is this is not the optimal diet for
longevity or for, you know, overall health.
But I do think that it can give people really amazing results if
they do you know really prioritize that And I think that
with the protein sparing might modified fast, the one thing
that is unique about it is, if you are getting enough protein,
say to, you know, just give your body, the protein, amino acids,
that it needs that day. And then most of your energy is
coming from your stored body fat on you, then you're still making
ketones, you're still burning fat, you're still like in
ketosis, you're still kind of doing keto in that.
Way and that I guess that's kind of how I look at.
It is like from the physiological standpoint, you
know, if someone is doing it and they feel horrible on it and
they hate it every day. You know, then it's probably not
a good idea but if they're doing it sort of temporarily and they
feel great on it, then, you know, I guess that's kind of one
way to look at it. Yeah.
I feel like like like you said, I feel like honestly the main
Advocates, that that are pushing for a protein sparing, modified
fast approach, our are Doing so because they feel it's a
healthier approach than extended fasting, which I do totally
agree with. I just don't think it is the
optimal approach or the most sustainable approach, which has
been my biggest push against it. Now, if someone's going to do
either extended fasting, or protein sparing modified fast,
I'd push them towards the protein, sparing modified fast,
I would just recommend, they not do either of those two options,
right? And the thing about satiety is
like, Feel you have to have a little bit of a blend of one, of
two of the three macronutrients. For instance, you know, 500
calories of pure protein isn't going to be that satiating. 500
calories of pure fat. Is it gonna be that's a shame.
But if you have a blend of those two, that's going to be much
more satiating that's going to help stabilize that you're gonna
get more volume with the higher protein.
You can get more of a hormone impact from the fat.
So I think, you know viewing like winning nature to be ever.
Consume anything that's just pure.
Fat or pure protein that nobody's living off of a hundred
percent fat, or a hundred percent protein.
So, having a blend of the two is super, super important.
Yeah. And it makes sense, because
those are the two essential micronutrients, right?
Hmm, exactly exactly. Well, what are there?
Any other main, or pivotal trends that you've seen kind of
come and go as of late or anything, Hot Topic wise or is
those, those the pretty much main ones that you've
experienced lately. I would say that's probably the
main thing. I don't know if there's I didn't
actually ask you about that, but I've kind of haven't been as
involved like in watching what other people are posting and
stuff because I was pregnant. And so I kind of I maybe not
seeing as much as what's, you know, being posted and in a way
I kind of like to live that way. I kind of like to be in like my
own little bubble says, a lot of times, I don't really Know what
is going on? No I think I think I think
you're way ahead for doing that. Like so many people concern
themselves with the livelihood of others to the point that it
distracts from their own well-being and I feel like just
simply keeping your blinders on and doing what you know to be
good for you is oftentimes the best way to to do anything.
Yeah I think focus is so important to preserve and you
can really you know, waste a lot of your energy focusing on what
everyone else is doing. It can kind of steal your energy
As opposed to if you just kind of try to like you said, put the
blinders on and just stay focused on, you know what you
want to achieve and get out of life.
Yeah. And that, that transcends
nutrition for sure. I mean, this past year and a
half, two years with the politics, and the pandemic, and
everything that are in, has been a perfect testing ground to see
who allows all of these external factors to dictate their
day-to-day actions and for a while there.
Of a victim to it as well. I mean I was trying to keep up
with everything trying to dig as deep as possible and try to stay
on top of all the minutiae and the median, it's impossible,
like you, your productivity will drop to nothing.
If you allow that took over consume you.
What I've noticed is that simply, you know, focusing on
the things that I can directly control in my day-to-day life
and and doubling down on that has yielded the best results and
I would encourage anybody to do that same thing.
Yeah, absolutely. The best investment you can make
is always going to be in yourself above anything else.
100%. Well, I know you have a few
things that you're working on and I don't want to pull the
curtain back too far and unveil anything that is not yet ready
to be unveiled. But can you take the last little
bit here? And just kind of talk about what
you've got coming in the pipeline?
Yeah, I'm so so excited about this.
I've been working on it for two and a half years and it's just
something that It's been my dream to create.
So it's so tricky right now because, you know, it's, it's
it's almost ready for lunch by the time.
This podcast comes out. It may already be announced at
most likely will have. So if you want to go check it
out. It's something that I've been
working on, like I said, it's been a labor of love for the
last two and a half years and it's just something that I
wanted to create too. Give back in a way to the
community and you know something that I think people will find
really useful in their lives. Hopefully the love it as much as
I do and I know all that's a lot of Big T so you can go and you
know, look on my social profile or check out the podcast.
I'm going to be officially announcing it on the podcast so
I think that's probably the best way to do it.
I can really talk about it in depth and everything but one of
them is going to be on their way to you guys.
So I can't wait to hear what you think of it as well.
And yeah, it's a really, really exciting.
And, and I'm just so thrilled that it's, you know, finally
sort of manifesting, because it's been a long time working on
it. Well, I have no idea what it is,
but I can tell the excitement and passion your voice.
So I'm super excited for you as well.
Anytime you work on something to that to that extent and it is a
labor of love. Like it's I don't like it.
It's just a very cool thing to see unfold.
So So, best of luck with that unveil, whenever that time
comes, I have no doubt that it will be a wildly popular success
is all of the business entities that you've brought to fruition
over the years have been. So by all means, keep doing what
you're doing. Thank you so much Robert.
I really appreciate it and you know, really respect all that
you've built. So you know how fortunate are we
to be working in, you know, our passions and creating these, you
know businesses and you know, products are that people find,
you know, have value in them. It's really an honor to do that
and, you know, we're really, really fortunate 100%.
We're in good company because there's so many great people
like yourself in the space and I just I feel very, very
fortunate, very blessed to be able to interact with y'all on
the regular basis that we do. So, you're making the world a
better place. You're making waves.
You're changing lives. Just keep doing what you're
doing but that's them. Thank you so, so much.
Where do people go to find out more about you and follow along
if they're not already? Yeah, thank you so much for
that. So I'm most active probably on
Instagram at ketogenic girl. My website is the same ketogenic
girl and the podcast that I do, it's a biweekly podcast with two
episodes a week, and it drops on Mondays and on Thursdays, we
have the protein series episode. So, if you're curious about
protein, I've got a lot of protein scientists and World
experts on the show that talk. Exactly about protein, every
Thursday, and that's been really fun to do.
And that podcast is called Fast keto.
And like I said, I'll be making my big announcement on there.
So, If you subscribe, you'll get to be one of the first to hear
about it. Awesome, awesome level.
Most definitely link out to that and keep in touch.
I'm excited to see how this unfolds and there's ever
anything I can do for you in any way.
Just don't hesitate to reach out and let me know.
Like why is thank you so much, Robert.
Thank you.