Ketone IQ has always been used as like the sports string, the
performance string, the fuel or these athletes need.
For the first time ever we looked at ketones and anaerobic
because for the longest time we always thought ketones are
always associated with aerobic exercises or endurance exercise.
However, in this study that was published, the results came out
were very, very impressive because we are looking at
improved average power, improved peak power, improved cadence and
decrease fatigue index. So not only they are pushing
harder, they're also pushing faster because the cadence also
improved. Another interesting study that
is also revolving around oxygen, looking at ketone IQ, just one
dose in heart failure patients. They managed to improve the
cardiac output, the stroke volume and the ejection
fraction, all of which are really important clinical
outcomes that improve the survivability of these patients.
And we are live, Doctor Ladd. How are you, Sir?
Good. Thank you.
How are you? Good man, good.
I had you on a podcast, but I was trying to think when the
last time was. It's been over a year, two
years. Yeah, I think, I think about two
years now because, yeah, because it was right before I started
hosting the HVMM podcast and I hosted it for about a year and a
half and then took a break in the past year.
Is that podcast still going? No, it's, it hasn't been going
for a while now. I think for about 6-7 months now
because I have been focusing my efforts on grant applications
and research collaborations to really push the science forward.
Because while I was doing that every week, because we were
releasing episode every week, I, I, I got very little bandwidth
to really expand the science. So now we're actually seeing a
lot more collaborations, a lot more researchers who are
interested in using ketone IQ to treat certain diseases as well
as increasing performance. Nice.
Well, I definitely want to dive
into the collaborations, man. But with us having talked two
years ago now, I'm sure there's a lot of new science in the the
realm of exogenous ketone supplementation.
Yeah, I think two years ago we were just covering the ketone
one O 1, right? You were, you know, obviously
you were very well versed in the, in the ketone diet and, and
we're just talking the differences between like
exogenous ketones and endogenous ketones.
So here I think we can do a little bit more of a deeper dive
on, on what's new, right. And I'm going to take a ketone
IQ shot. I need it in the middle of the
day. I feel like I meant to actually
drink some before this episode. I normally have a sip like I've
got like a 60 mil shot that I'll take before I record an episode.
But I've changed my studio setup so all my stuff's different.
So I sat down in the chair earlier than I normally do and I
totally forgot mine. My shot of ketones man.
So. I mean, feel free to go take it.
I mean, we can always edit it, you know?
I might have to, man. I might have to.
So, yeah, let's roll up our sleeves, man.
With the science, like with all the new and, you know, upcoming
science and just everything that's elapsed over the last two
years, what what has changed, what has been learned, what has
shifted since our last recording?
OK, let's let's focus first on the performance because I think
ketone IQ has always been used as like the sport string, the
performance string, the fuel that all these athletes need.
So the two main papers are 11 paper that has been out.
The other one we are just wrapping up and and about to
submit end of this month mainly focusing around performance,
athletic performance. So the paper with University of
North Georgia was out in January that was looking at anaerobic
exercise. So for the first time ever, we
looked at ketones and anaerobic because for the longest time we
always thought ketones are always associated with aerobic
exercises or endurance exercise because it is it is derived from
fatty acids and fatty acids get converted into beta
hydroxybutyrate, which is ketones in your liver.
So for the longest time we thought, OK, fatty acid is
better for endurance, glucose is better for anaerobic exercises
because there's a high intensity anaerobic exercise.
You need glycolysis, which is oxygen independent, you get a
fast ATP production. However, in this study that was
published, what we have seen is that these people, they are,
they are not keto adapter people.
They have had a breakfast, standard breakfast that we give
them. They have glycogen stores and we
just give them ketone IQ and at the end of the 5K run, they jump
straight onto a bike, a stationary bike and we make them
do a Wingate test. So they have to, they have to
push as fast as they could, as hard as they could for 10
seconds and then rest for 30 seconds and then do that for
five times. And the results came out were
very, very impressive because we are looking at improved average
power, improved peak power, improved cadence and decrease
fatigue index. So not so not only they are
pushing harder, they're also pushing faster because the
cadence also improved and then they feel less fatigued at the
end of it. So that to us is a very novel
finding that a lot of us didn't expect.
Because if we look at the RAR, which is the respiratory
exchange ratio, they are still burning more glucose than fat.
They're still above 1, but they are significantly lower than
those who are in placebo. So we're pushing it towards fat,
which technically would make them do worse, but they're doing
better. So what we think is happening is
the effect of ketone IQ on the brain, similar effect similar to
that of a caffeine effect where it numbs your pain during that
anaerobic exercise. So it's a sort of analgesic
effect so that they they feel less pain in the localized
muscle area where you are exerting force for the
anaerobic. Exercise.
So like what? What from like a lactic acid
standpoint? Like, were there any tests done
on, you know, lactic acid levels and any shifts between the
ketone IQ group and the placebo? We, I wish we did, but we didn't
do any muscle biopsies to sort of reduce the invasion the, the,
the invasive techniques and making sure that we get passed
quickly on the ethics and make sure we get the study up and
running quickly. But there are studies in the
past that showed with ketones, exhaustion, ketones, lactic acid
buildup was decreased. But that was in endurance
exercise. So it'd be very interesting to
see what difference would it make in anaerobic high intensity
exercise where lactic acid buildup really quickly and then
they dissipate very quickly as well as you get oxygen in.
Yeah, 'cause I can feel like from, like from my experience,
you know, having been keto adapted, fat adapted for over a
decade now, my MCT transporters are in greater abundance, which
clear, you know, pyruvate and lactate.
So I don't have near the burning sensation that I used to before
adopting a ketogenic diet. But I would be curious to see
what happens for, you know, acute settings and individuals
that are not deeply adapted. Yeah.
I mean we have seen the UP regulation of MCT transporters,
mono carboxylates transporters when people have taken ketones.
So it's definitely upregulated. Now whether or not that
upregulation of MCT affects the accumulation of lactic that we
don't know. Interesting.
So. So what all markers were tested
for with this test specifically? That was purely on the
performance level it was in. We didn't I I don't believe we
tested any markers apart from blood glucose, blood ketones.
Got you. When we're going to have a test
with like resistance trained athletes, that's what I'm really
curious. To see that, that would be super
cool. That's the problem though.
Like because of the conventional understanding of metabolism that
they, a lot of researchers don't believe this result, right.
So even like getting it published, we had so many
reviewers just say like, it's not enough or like it's, it's,
it's, it's not convincing enough.
But like this is what the data shows.
I mean, we HVMN, even though we sponsored the study, we did not
have any Privy to the data. We were not involved in the data
collection. We were not involved in data
analysis. We were not involved even in the
manuscript writing until the end.
So I think this paper now gives way to say, hey, like let's do a
more a more comprehensive study that includes like resistance
training athletes and we could potentially even include keto
adapted athletes versus non keto adapted athletes.
It's just finding funding and the the institution who is
willing to do that. Yeah, I know it, it's tricky,
man. Like we've, we've had there's
been I think 2 keto brick studies done on my product and
like they'll ask for funds to help fund the study.
So I'll, you know, quote UN quote sponsor the study, but I'm
not involved at all in the data collection or the publication.
What I'm just helping them meet the funds necessary to pay the
powers that be. But yes, studies, I mean, it's
it's a crazy grind, man. Like it takes so long, It's hard
to find good participants for it, especially trying to find
people that are actually found adapted because most of them are
food survey studies. And who knows how accurate those
are. But I think they're definitely
be more research around exogenous ketones and just
ketosis in general for people that are in fact adapted because
from an athletic standpoint, so many of the performance based
studies out there are pulling, you know, standard American
diets, consumers off the streets.
They're not giving them any adaptation period whatsoever.
So of course the studies are going to show a drop in
performance. Yeah.
And I'm so glad you brought up how difficult it is to actually
run a study and how long it takes.
And, and I appreciate that because a lot of people outside,
they're like, oh, why don't you just run a study on this?
Why don't you just run a study on that?
I'm like, well, the funding, the facilities, the people, the
human resource we need, the expertise we need on the
techniques, the different assays that we need to run.
And even after all the data collection is done, there's also
like data analysis and manuscript writing.
And we just can't just like publish overnight.
So that I think more people would need to understand the
difficulty and the challenges that comes with running studies.
And that's also why a lot of times we lag behind on evidence
versus what's already commercial in the market, especially
substances or supplements that are much less stricter being
regulated that than than those who are strict, which are
stricter being regulated than FDA by FDA.
Right. And then the other paper that we
are just about wrap about to wrap up is around EPL.
Right. Real quick before we go to that
one. So this that we just talked
about that has been published now.
That has been published when? When would that one go live?
That was January, like two months ago.
Yeah, you have to send me the link to that one, Yeah.
So what I'll do at the end? I'm going to send you a Notion
doc that has all the upcoming, current and upcoming
publications in that I have all the links of all the studies
that we are currently doing. If those who are, which are
completed, it will have a publication link and those which
are ongoing, it'll have the clinical trial Gov link.
In case if, if your, if your audience somehow happened to be
in that area and they're interested in joining that
trial. Hey, go sign up, you know.
Totally, man. All right.
So it's hard to do really there. What What's the study that you
are currently wrapping up now? So that one is around recovery
and we looked at EPL, which is erythropoietin, which is a
settling molecule that increases red blood cells formation.
And then we looked at angiogenesis, which is new blood
vessels formation and looking at all these biomarkers that comes
with hypoxic adaptation. So a lot of athletes, they like
to train in high altitude because that increases their own
EPO production. When you increase EPO, you
increase the high red blood cells.
When you increase red blood cells, you increase oxygen
delivery. And as we know as we work out,
we always need oxygen in order to create ATP.
And in endurance exercise, especially the more oxygen you
can deliver actually in, in, in all exercise, the more oxygen
that you can deliver, the, the, the higher the potential that
you can reach. So that's why EPO was
considered, you know, illegal and blood doping where people
directly inject EPO into their body and get to get it to a
super physiological level that increases risks of other side
effects and, and possibly death. And that was why it was banned.
But what we have seen in this study is that ketone IQ can
enhance your own endogenous EPO production, which means, yes, it
is limited to your own own genetic capacity and genetic
potential. But nonetheless it does increase
it to a significant level where you get an advantage over the
placebo group that did did not have ketone IQ.
So that is a great show of not only the ability to increase EPO
and delivery of oxygen, but that that if you think about the
application side of things, we are looking at multiple things,
not just performance. We're looking at even hypoxic
adaptation. So for divers, for hikers, for
people who are, you know, mountain climbers, you get that
adaptation to hypoxia much quicker and making sure that you
you reduce mountain sickness. There's also another paper that
showed ketones reduced mountain sickness in higher attitude as
well. And then with regards to
angiogenesis, we are looking at new blood vessels formation.
So think about you work out really hard.
A lot of people also, you know, always say that the recovery is
as important, if not more important than the workout
itself. Because you spend 1-2 hours
working out, but you are spending the rest of the time
after recovering and getting stronger and rebuilding your
muscles, rebuilding your your nervous system to make it more
adaptable as well as more resilient to the stress that
you're giving it every day. So the recovery has been shown
to improve via androgenesis markers.
So we are making new blood blood vessels to deliver the increased
red blood cells into the muscles.
And that is really good thing, because now not only you are
delivering oxygen into your muscles, you are also delivering
the building blocks that you need in order to repair the
muscles, the glucose, the amino acids, the proteins and all
those you need in order to recover well.
And is all of that like is the mechanism of action in both of
those instances simply a result of increased beta hydroxy
butyrate in circulation? Yes, it is.
It is increased beta hydroxy, beta oxy butyrate and as a
result of that and ketone IQ specifically uses R13 Visine
dial, which has been shown to have a vasodilation effect.
And we can talk about that later in in certain therapeutic
disease where, excuse me, certain disease where you have
the lack of blood flow, either it's via, you know,
atherosclerosis like vaso clogged, clogged, clogged up and
vasodilation is essentially helps with that blood flow.
So that could be one reason also why the recovery is better
because you're getting better blood flow and obviously during
exercise that also could result in lower heart rate, lower blood
pressure as you are ramping up the intensity, which makes your
makes your perceived rate of exertion to be a little bit
lower as well. What?
What is your measure to quantify the increased in dilation of
blood cells, blood vessels better?
I believe it's the arterial blood flow.
They, they measured when, when, yeah, they, they, they mentioned
the arterial blood flow, the blood pressure and all that.
And then they also identified the inhibition of endothelin,
which is a signaling molecule that constricts blood vessels
with ketones. It inhibits it, so it allows
your blood vessel to relax and dilate.
And again, this is a result of increased beta hydroxy butyrate
in circulation or the 1-3 butanediol specifically before
it converts. So the study that showed the
vasodilation of butanediol was independent of BHP.
So we can't, we, we, we weren't able to really separate those
because when you taking butanediol, it automatically
gets converted into BHP in the liver anyway.
But obviously you will have butanol circulating in your
blood, which could be the reason.
But that is also accompanied by the increase in BHP.
Now it could very well that they work in tandem causing the
vasodilation and then the BHP causing the rest of the
signaling downstream effect, which will be the angiogenesis,
the EPO and all of that because EPO was also seen to improve
without, you know, butane all being involved.
And what what is the dosage on on these?
Studies. The study for the anaerobic
study was 0.5g per kilogram of body weight.
So that's quite high dose. For the recovery, it was a
little bit lower. It's 0.3g per kilogram of body
weight. Gotcha.
And the so I'm just familiar with the little camp that comes
with, I get the the concentrate. So I'm typically taking 60 mills
per serving, give or take 45 to 60 mills.
So what does that equate to in grams?
So which one did you get the? I'm getting like I've got those
taller bottles, like is it this one?
Yeah, yeah, those. So concentrate, that is the
dilution. No, this is the 10 doses.
This is, I mean technically this is more concentrated than the
shots because it's 10 grams per 35 mil and then the shots are 10
grams per 59 mil. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
So. So this one has 10 doses on it,
so that will be equivalent say how?
How do you know how heavy you are in kilograms?
I'll tell you how heavy I am in pounds.
Let me do a little quick conversion here.
Some 187 lbs, give or take. Let's see here 187.
It's 84 kilograms, 84.8. So you would take 25 grams for
recovery? Grams and the.
So 2 1/2 doses. Of the 60 mils.
Of the so so 35 would be 35 would be 10 grams.
So you would need 7070 plus. Hold on.
I could just take 90 mils and call it good. 5 * 2.5 yeah 90
mils yeah 87.5. Perfect, Perfect.
Yeah, sweet. Yeah, I'll, I'll up my dosage a
little bit. Yeah.
I think from a recovery standpoint, that's what I get
excited about, man. Because I think, you know, I
typically take it before podcast from a mental clarity and
cognition standpoint, but I think, you know, post, it's not
like a stimulus at all. So I don't really take it as a
stimulatory agent necessarily, but I think from a recovery
standpoint post training, but I guess there's like a lag effect
to it. So I could just as easily take
it before workout and then it would still have the recovery
benefits well afterwards. Yeah, exactly.
I would take it like half an hour before workout and then
I'll take it. So I'll work out at like 6 or 55
or 6:00 PM and then I'll take two doses before bed just for
that recovery as well. So feel free to top it up.
And I would normally just take one shot.
So way lower dose when I'm just sedentary and just using it for
cognitive purposes. I feel that one, just 35 mil was
enough for me to be focused and have that mental clarity.
And as you said, it's not a stimulus, so.
When I take it for cognitive purposes, for podcasts for
example, it actually calms my brain down and make me able to
say what I want to say in a coherent manner.
Whereas if I have caffeine it makes me jittery so I'm may
sound more hectic than I would normally.
Totally. So you are killing it from a
marketing standpoint. I mean, you are like I saw
someone of the team, team members of y'all was doing an
interview with like Cameron Haynes and he was shooting
arrows off of the head. I was going to.
Oh really? Yeah.
So if you were able to come here for the in person podcast, I was
just going to offer the same thing for you.
You know, I could just shoot one off of your head.
Probably wouldn't be as accurate as campaigns.
So I wouldn't recommend it. But but y'all are appealing to a
pretty broad demographic of potential customers.
Like what are what are y'all really trying to hone in on?
Like what is the the most common use case scenario I guess.
The most common use case the way I always say it is any activity
that use your brain. So pretty much anything, right
you can use your brain for work, you use your brain for workout
you use your brain even when you're asleep because you are
consolidating all the memories, all the learnings throughout the
day. So all those instances Keystone
IQ will be able to help you. But right now for the honing in
of the marketing point of view is that we are trying to disrupt
the five hour energy drink, the energy drinks market because a
lot of people are laden with sugars and caffeine.
And the problem with caffeine is that you do build up tolerance.
And as you build up tolerance, you will just want more.
You will just need more. And then not only that, when you
are hooked on it and you come off of it, you get the
withdrawal effect that you get the, the headaches, you get the
chronic tension headaches, which is not ideal obviously, because
now you are dependent on it. Ketones, on the other hand, you
can go on and off. You can cycle it off and there
is no side effect and it does not build up tolerance because
even if I've taken it for two years, I can stop tomorrow and
nothing will happen. Will I still get the, the sort
of focus and benefit long term? We haven't got a long term study
to look at that yet, but my my feeling that it is, it does
hold. Like I genuinely feel that my
memory recall has been better in the past two years, even on the
days that I don't take ketones. Yeah.
And there's not really an upper threshold to it where there's
not really a, you know, LD 50 dose to it, so to speak, is
there? So I was asked this question
earlier today actually in another another interview with
anything else, the something is better doesn't mean that more is
better. With metabolism, you want to
always stick to that optimal zone and I would always go for
between 1:00 to 2:00, one point, 2.51 to 2.5 milli molar blood
ketone levels. Now when it comes to dosing it
right, I usually two to three doses will get me into that zone
for a good six hours if I'm not working out.
If I'm working out, it'll get me, you know, into that zone for
about two hours. I wouldn't take more than three
at a time. Feel free to top it up because
we have had ultra endurance athletes who took 1212 shots.
So 12 doses in 22 hours. Because she was, she was running
for that 21st 2 hours. She was running for back water
and she took twelve shots in 22 hours.
And that's fine, but do not take 12 shots in one one seating,
obviously, I think I think that is is not advisable.
If you are, you know, if you find yourself needing to dose
more than three doses, I wouldn't take more than, you
know, three at a time and then wait half an hour, top up
whatever you need and then top up later in the day if you need
it. Yeah, makes sense.
Are you using like a, are you checking your blood ketones
throughout the day based off your dosage just to kind of see
what it's doing to your, you know, your millimolar range?
I did in the beginning, I did very consistently and that's the
beauty of exogenous ketones because it's dose dependent.
So once you know what dose gets you to what level, you basically
don't need to check it anymore because it will be consistent
every time. It's not affected by what you
eat. It's not affected.
It may be affected by your activity.
So if you're working out, obviously it would drop quicker
because you are using up the ketones, but it is not affected
by a baseline physiological state.
Gotcha, whereas keto diet is is a bit hit or miss.
If you you know have a bit of hidden carbs and what not, they
might kick you off ketosis. Right, right.
So on that note, I think we probably touched on this briefly
when the last time you were on the show, but kind of comparing
use cases for those that are trying to tackle this from like
a dual fuel standpoint and still consume relatively high
carbohydrates versus those that are following a ketogenic diet.
And are, you know, in ketosis by way of what they're consuming.
How How does the exogenous ketones impact those two groups
differently? I think for a lot of people who
have been on ketosis who who have been on keto diet already,
they find exogenous ketones to be useful to bridge into the
keto diet whenever they're out. So it gets them into the keto,
into ketosis much faster. And then when the exogenous
ketones wear off, they already ready to burn their own ketones
because it does lower black glucose as well.
So if they have a high glucose meal, they know their sure their
basal metabolic rate or their basal physiological state is not
in ketosis. Then they take a shot, gets into
ketosis and then a few hours passes by, their blood glucose
is already dropped and then they go back into ketosis.
For people who are not on ketogenic diet, they find the
the they find the advantage is the fact that they don't have to
go on a certain diet to have that benefit as well.
So they still experience the cognitive clarity, the focus, as
well as the glycogen sparring effect if they're doing
exercise. Yeah.
Have there been any studies done or maybe just even an adult
experience of people that are diabetic like type 1 diabetics
using ketone IQ? Like what what is happening
there? I mean, it's obviously dropping
the glucose some, but like would they be able to feasibly reduce
their insulin requirements? So not type 1.
So I I believe the the study was on type 2 diabetic and that was
done by University of British Columbia Dr. Jonathan Little.
So he has looked into the glucose lowering effect of
ketones in obese patients, in healthy patients, in diabetic
patients. And what they have seen is that
after food and then take ketones, their blood level drops
up to like 50 points in the in the US unit and that is
significant. So type 1, I don't know what
sort of difference that would make for the diabetic.
For the type 2 diabetic study, they didn't see any change in
insulin. Now mind you, that is also a
very short study. I believe right now they're
running a three month study to look at the chronic effects
because as we know, like our bodies will take time to adapt
to that, right? Even though our blood glucose
spikes and drops and highs and lows at all times depending on
what we eat and what we do. But when it comes to insulin
resistance, insulin sensitivity, that takes time for our body to
readjust and recover. So I'll hope that because these
people are not having as much glucose spikes throughout the
day for three months that we are going to see some form of
reduction in insulin. And then that also shows the
increase in insulin sensitivity in muscle cells.
I think that will be the ideal outcome of a study that I would
I would definitely be rooting for.
Yeah, I'm, this is super interesting.
I've got an employee that's type 1 diabetic and he's recently
I've, I've recently convinced him to switch over to a
ketogenic diet. So he's been doing that for
about two weeks now, but at the same time, his pharmacy put him
on a different insulin. So just a ton of variables.
But I was having him use some of the exogenous ketones post
perendial after his lunch meal and he noticed that it didn't
have near the spike that it was having previously.
So I'm kind of curious to see how all that plays out through
some more manipulation. But I think there could
definitely be a use case scenario there.
That is exactly what they experienced in in the study
there, there, there was no spike and in fact it just dropped.
However, you have to be a bit careful because of the drop in
in blood glucose. For type one, they are unable to
produce insulin. So that's a very different case
to type 2 where you're trying to reduce insulin because they
already have high insulin and you want to increase the insulin
sensitivity in the muscles. Whereas for type one, they
already do not have insulin to begin with.
So if there's any, you know, sharp drop in in black glucose,
there is no way to to regulate it internally unless you just
take in more glucose externally. Yeah.
And I don't think, I mean, it didn't drop his drastically, but
if he's able to just get that dialed in so that his insulin
requirements are at least somewhat mitigated, so he's not
having as much of it, I think that would be a huge win as as
well. I mean, obviously with the Type
1, they're probably still going to have to take some exotic
insulin in some form or fashion. But like just reducing that
dosage I think would make a meaningful difference long term.
Yeah, especially with healthcare these days are so expensive, you
know, like it's, it's no kidding.
Like a lot of people are suffering because they don't get
their insulin dosing and and people can die from it, right?
And you know who you should follow?
Who is type 1 diabetic and a scientist?
Doctor Andrew Koenig, he's a good friend, brilliant
scientist. He always talks, he's passionate
about type 1 diabetic and you know, different ways to, to live
healthily and, and he's jacked and he, he also uses keto diet.
So follow him and and he, you know, I'm happy to introduce him
to you as well if if you want to learn more about the type 1
diabetic and ketogenic diet. Yeah, I've had him.
I don't think I've had him on the podcast.
I've talked with him, I think online or somebody was telling
me about him. I follow him, I'm pretty sure.
But yeah, I'd love to keep him on the show for sure.
Yeah, yeah. So.
So what about the relationship with the 13 Butane Diol and I
guess alcohol? I mean, it's, it's a, it's not
an ethanol, but it has similar properties to like alcohol in a,
in a sense, right? So, so this is this is a topic
that was brought up a lot when we first launched, right?
Our competitors would say, oh, this is alcohol, like this is
unhealthy. But then over time, we now see
that it is being metabolized very differently than alcohol
and it does not have the same effect as alcohol.
And in fact, a lot of our Olympics athletes are using
ketone IQ for performance. And if it does exit the same
effects of alcohol, there is no way they're going to jeopardize
their entire career using ketone IQ.
So I think this goes back to what I said earlier, the just
because something is good doesn't mean that you need to
take more of it. So that's where people overdose
and get too much at one time and you may get that oozy feeling,
but even then you don't really necessarily replicate the entire
effect of ethanol on your system, so.
Yeah. I mean, just the fact that this
has been shown to be a vasodilator, whereas alcohol as
a vasoconstrictor like that alone from a performance
standpoint, shows that they're pretty different in how they
respond to the body. Exactly, exactly.
Would you would you pop on a breathalyzer test if you're
pulled over after Downing a whole bunch of the ketone I?
Don't think so. I don't think that would that
would yeah, it'll be interesting.
You you should try it just. Try it.
Like just speed around a little bit and now the.
Ketone. I just buy a breathalyzer and
then have a bunch of ketone and then breathe into it and see
what happens. There you go.
I'm gonna have to do that test for sure.
What's the next study in the pipeline?
And so you're wrapping up that one now what's what's next in
the queue? The next in the queue, we are
actually applying for quite a few grants and a few grants are
in review at the moment, one of which is with NIH and
collaborating with Johns Hopkins University.
Looking at sleep apnea, so obstructive sleep apnea where
your Airways are blocked in one way or another during sleep and
because of that, your body is getting less oxygen.
And again, we're coming back to the oxygen.
It seems like ketone does improve oxygenation in a lot of
ways. So this is when you're sleeping
and you have decreased oxygen delivered to your body and AS as
time passes you are increasing your risk of cardiovascular
disease, obesity and even mortality.
So that is obstructive sleep apnea and a lot of people, I
believe up to 1 billion people are affected by it over in the
world. Before I misspeak, let me let me
double check that that number. It sounds right, but yeah, I
don't want to misquote you. Yeah, 1 billion people.
So essentially one in eight are
affected by obstructive sleep apnea in the world.
So it's more common than people think.
And most people who have sleep apnea, they also snore.
However, if you do snore, you don't necessarily have sleep
apnea. But if you have sleep apnea,
most probably you will snore. And we are running the study
with Doctor Jonathan June looking at using ketone IQ as a
way to increase their oxygen saturation and increase their
sensitivity to carbon dioxide so that they can the body can
adjust so to to improve their symptoms.
So previously they published a paper using just ketogenic diet.
And then they were curious whether it is whether if it is
the diet itself or is it the ketones.
And that's why they decided to work with us to really isolate
the diet versus just beating diet or beta hydroxybutyrate to
look at the effect of that on on sleep apnea.
So fingers crossed. Interesting, interesting.
I was at a conference, I guess earlier last year and I forget
the, I forget the speaker, but he was talking about sleep,
improving sleep quality and how a simple technique people can do
is just simply open their bedroom doors or a window as
they sleep. Because if everything's enclosed
in your bedroom and you're just constantly exhaling through the
night, the carbon dioxide builds up and that massively down
regulates overall sleep quality. So if you open that up, get
better oxygen, and you pair that with, you know, the exogenous
ketones to improve oxygenation all the more, That makes total
sense to me. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And then another interesting study that is also revolving
around oxygen is a collaboration with Duke University heart
failure and we are running a, an 8 week, sorry, we are running an
8 week study putting about 20 heart failure patients on ketone
IQ. And this is also very similar to
a study we having in Denmark with Arhurst University.
That study is shorter, it's 30 days, but we are running it on
250 heart failure patients. So that is already ongoing.
And what we have seen so far. And this Denmark group even
published a paper on the 24th of December last year, just
Christmas Eve looking at ketone IQ, just one dose in heart
failure patients. They managed to improve the
cardiac output, the stroke volume and the ejection
fraction, all of which are really important clinical
outcomes that improve their survivability of these patients.
Interesting. So think about what we talked
about, fossil dilation, improve oxygen delivery and now we're
talking about heart failure patients who essentially they
have they may or may not have had a heart attack before.
They have some form of dysfunction that stops the heart
from functioning properly. Either it's, you know, reduce
blood flow, reduce or some cardiomyocytes being damaged
during a heart attack. But now with ketones, you have a
more efficient feel, you have vasodilation, increase blood
flow, increase oxygen, increase delivery of substrates and
repair materials and they are improving.
Interesting. This may be just wishful
thinking on my part, but are there any things in the works
for studies around patients with Alzheimer's and dementia as far
as exogenous ketones is concerned?
Yes, I do believe there has been going around going going on for
a while now. I believe, like when I first
joined HVM and in 2019, there were already a study funded by
the NIH using exogenous ketones on Alzheimer's and dementia.
We currently don't have anything specifically or we have a grant
with the Naval Health Research Center looking at traumatic
brain injury, which also increases your risk of
developing Alzheimer's and neurodegenerative diseases later
on in life, but specifically Alzheimer's.
Not yet. I am going to, I'm going to
Pittsburgh, PA to speak with a group that is specialized in
neuroscience and University of Pittsburgh and they are
interested in collaborating. So potentially we're looking at
some form of brain research going on there and applying for
grants, which will sort of support more studies around
neurodegenerative diseases. Because I feel like, I mean,
this hits home for me and I'm sure many others.
I mean, I've got grandparents that are starting to show signs
of Alzheimer's dementia. And it's like, I know they would
benefit immensely from just adopting a ketogenic diet,
removing the excessive sugar and lack of proteins, quality fats
in their food. But like getting people that are
in their elder years to adopt A totally different lifestyle is
like nearly impossible, it seems.
Whereas if they could just simply consume an exogenous
ketone, that could bridge that gap a bit easier for them, you
know, because ketones can cross the blood brain barrier, they
can provide that energy for, you know, neural tissue.
I feel like that would be a very easy win for them.
Low hanging fruit. So that those those studies
really interest me for sure. Yeah, But for sure, absolutely.
And I think there is also the challenge of like, sticking to a
keto diet, right? So if you can pair that with a
intermittent keto diet with exogenous ketones, that gives
them a little bit of flexibility because, you know, I have the
same problems. Like my mom shows some signs and
she's only 70. And I'm like please take your
ketones because it does work. Yeah, yeah, 100% man.
What about you personally? What, what, what gets you
excited outside of the the studies of which you have
multiple that you're working on? Yeah, I've got multiple and
we've got even cancer studies actually that is very different
mechanistically to what we've talked about in terms of like
the oxygen, oxygen delivery and all that.
They are very different mechanism of actions which
effects specific cancers. So with Upenn, we're looking at
colorectal cancer and then with Stanford we're looking at
lymphoma and leukemia. So that's that's another
collaboration that we're working on.
But for me personally, I've been going through my own
transformation in the past year. In 2023, I was weighing 185 lbs.
Now I'm around 165 lbs, so 20 lbs.
But I also measured my muscle mass throughout the year.
I lost about 26 lbs of fat and I gained a little bit of muscle,
which I was, you know what, I I'll take that rather than
losing any muscle, even if it's 1 LB, I'm fine with that
because, because having been on a calorie deficit for most of
the time in the past year, because I'm doing carb cycling
and managing to lose all that body fat and maintain muscle,
I'll take that as a win anytime. Doctor Lance getting jacked,
man. Well, the jacked part is, is is
hopefully later. So I'm training with Jay
Ferrugi. I don't know if you know him.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So I'm talking with Jay and he's
like, you didn't no, we need to get you like lean enough before
we we do a reverse diet and get you jacked.
I was like, so I'm still waiting for the Jack part, but I'm
definitely, you know, lean enough, well, leaner than I was
and I I never thought I could because I was, I'm hitting forty
this year, right. So I'm like, great, like, you
know, where, where does my metabolism stand?
And one good thing about me growing up unhealthily, so I
grew up overweight. One of the good thing is that I
never knew what peak was. Whereas a lot of people who
peaked in high school and they were like the football jock or
like the the sportsman, they knew what it feels like to be at
that peak. And it they feel like, Oh, I'm
not as I used to be. Whereas for me now I'm fitter
than I've ever been. So it feels good because I'm
like discovering new heights rather than trying to get to my
past height. Yeah, no, that's awesome, man.
I feel like so many people relive their glory days from
high school and college, and it's just like, to me, that's
just depressing way to live. Like, if I'm past that time,
that chapter in my life, I just constantly, you know, reminisce
on that as that being my my prime.
Like, that's sad. Whereas now, like I'd
legitimately feel and look and perform better with every year
that passes. I mean this is the freaking
found the youth right here man. Yeah, absolutely.
You just you just said it perfectly.
It literally you create your own peak whenever you want.
Yeah, 100%. So with you dieting down, losing
all that fat, I'm assuming you're, you know, obviously
dropping your intake, eating a little bit of a deficit, Did you
notice that the exhaust ketones had much of an effect from a
satiety standpoint? Yes, absolutely.
Especially at night. So I'll have my dinner around 8
or 9, which is quite late already, but I sleep around like
midnight and by that time I'm I'm already hungry.
So because I use ketones for my sleep recovery, not necessarily
from a appetite suppression standpoint, but it works very
well complementary to the appetite suppression standpoint,
because at that point I'm already hungry and I'm going to
take ketones anyway. So that stopped me being hungry
and it improved my sleep, my sleep quality.
So how soon after your dinner meal at 8 or 9 would you have
the exogenous ketones? I would have it right before
bed. OK, so still have it right
before bed. Interesting.
Yeah. So I don't.
Have it. I don't have it with my dinner.
I don't have it like post exercise, even though the study
that showed improvement in recovery, they have it half an
hour post exercise and half an hour before bed.
I only do the before bed part because usually like you said,
you'll have a delayed effect. So I have it before my workout.
So I'll still have ketones in my in my body.
And because I work out in the evening, the window is much
smaller anyway so I don't need to top up that often.
So just I'm just going to do before workout at 5 or 6 and
then I'll do it before bed at 12.
Interesting, do you fall asleep pretty quickly or just working
on the evening kind of hinder? Then Nope, I have no problem
falling asleep. I, I love my sleep and, and I
think it's a lot to do with my life, you know, living in all
these different places and travelling a lot.
So I've trained my body to be able to sleep in any condition,
including like on flights and on buses.
Heck, I've, I've slept in a club before when I was in my
undergrad. I was just tired.
I I, I took a check leaning against the wall and literally
fell asleep for half an hour and then the bouncer came and woke
me up, thought I was on something.
I was like, no, I was just asleep.
Yeah, it's not a bad thing, man. Being able to sleep at the ready
is is probably a superpower honestly.
Yeah, I know. Well that's so man, kudos to you
for dropping the body fat. And when?
When do you start reverse dieting and actually focus on
the muscle building then? Where?
Well, according to Jay, when my my, my fat percentage gets a
little bit lower than than I am now.
So anytime soon, but because I went back to Malaysia for two
weeks and a half and during the Lunar New Year end of February,
early February, so that travel really screwed me over because
my sleeping, my nutrition and everything was not consistent.
So I came back and I probably gained some more fat.
So now I have to like get back to consistent.
But then I'm going on a podcast tour, you know, So heck, you
know, it's that's the challenge of us.
Who wants to be consistent? You know, you always end up
doing something that that forces you to not be consistent.
Yeah, it's, it's tough, man. I've got a lot of clients that
are, you know, busy traveling or whatever the case may be.
But it's all just a matter of like what you want to
prioritize. I mean, you can make it work,
nutritionally speaking, no matter where you're at.
So you can find the gym, Definitely.
It's harder when you're traveling, but you can.
I think the gym the gym part is the easiest because especially
if you're traveling in the US like I can always find a gym and
and have a guest pass and whatever.
I think the and even nutrition could be easy.
I could rent an Airbnb where I can actually cook so that way I
can measure and count my my macros.
The hardest part for me would be the sleep and sleep effects my
weight so much much more than nutrition and my workout because
I realized on days that I do not sleep well it it either goes up
or stays the same even at a calorie deficit.
Either I'm bloated with water retention or whatever.
I don't know, but it's certainly affect my weight loss
significantly, much more than my workout and my nutrition.
Yeah, I mean, so much of, you know, lack of sleep is just
going to be an increase of, you know, stress and cortisol, and
that's obviously going to increase fluid retention as
well. I mean, if I get a good night's
sleep, I'll literally wake up two or three pounds lighter with
nothing else changing to my nutrition.
Yeah. So 100%, ma'am, we'll shoot next
time we do a podcast. You'll definitely have to come
here in person. We'll get a lift in.
Yeah, 100% like I would love to, you know, pick your brains on on
like different techniques and different routines, like what
sort of cycles, you know, of how you you do your, your, your
lifting days and what are the benefits of like, you know,
upper body, lower body versus push pull leg versus, you know,
bro split or whatever, you know, all that stuff.
Yeah, 100% man, We'll do that for sure.
I'm getting some. Actually just ordered some new
equipment from my gym this morning so it's just getting all
the better getting it ready for you when you come.
Sounds like I if I go there, I have to be there at least for
two days. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Awesome, brother. Well, Doctor Ladd, I appreciate
it. Pleasure as always.
Where do people go to find out more about you?
The studies. We'll put the studies in the
show notes, but the website, all that good stuff.
Yeah. So if you go to ketone.com,
that's where you can find everything about ketone on a
queue, including the science page.
If you want to follow me at Lat Mansour LATTMANSOR on all social
media. And yeah, if you have any
questions, DM me, e-mail me lat@ketone.com and we'll speak.
Awesome. Appreciate it, brother.
Pleasure as always, Jim. Thank you.
Take care.