What's going on? Ladies and gents, Robert Sykes?
Keto Savage.com today. I've got special repeat guests,
Austin Paulson on the line Austin, and I met during my 2017
competition. He had a client, that was
competing there as well. And we were started talking
backstage. He does not do keto, he does
more of a carbohydrate mixed diet nutrition protocol, but
I've got nothing but respect to this guy because he freaking
kills it. When he competes.
He just did a show not too long ago and had amazing conditioning
and I wanted to bring him on the show to talk about what his
strategy. G was like, where's nutritional
protocol was like what his training was like, we talk a
little business. He had a tumor not so long ago
that was affecting his hormone production endocrine system and
he is now doing trt and everything with his competitive
Endeavors. So I wanted to kind of pick his
brain and kind of compare and contrast what that's like versus
competing as a natural. So awesome.
Awesome conversation, like said nothing but respect for Austin,
he's killing it in the game just to honestly.
Good genuine, dude, so got no doubt that you will take
something from this conversation.
Especially if bodybuilding is at all of an interest to you.
So without further Ado, sit back, relax, enjoy the podcast
with my good friend, Austin. And we are live.
Austin. How are you man?
Good brother. How are you doing?
I'm good. I'm good.
Last time we spoke has been about two years ago.
I think. And try remember you had just
had like a surgery or something done.
If I remember correctly, right? Our, you're about to have
surgery. I don't know.
I can't remember because a couple years ago.
It might even be longer than that, dude, because I remember,
we started out we met back in Spokane, right?
Anyway, and when I competed in at that gbo showing 2017, I
think was because you didn't compete them at you had a client
that was competing, right? Yeah, Tom and yeah, he was you
did by building. He did the classic hidden.
You obviously, destroyed everybody in bodybuilding and he
was doing classic and and doing a runway show.
Up there, but yeah, then after that except like I had you on my
podcast. I think.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Yeah, and then I can try to remember with surgery because I
did get ACL surgery, way back when.
But I think what you're talking about might be when I was
diagnosed with with a brain tumor, the fun stuff.
That's what it was, what it was, whatever came of that, because I
think you had just gotten diagnosed last.
We spoke. Yeah, so the fun stuff is for a
while there. My endocrine system was just
messed up, right? My total test my total
testosterone dropped at one point in time.
It was like a 97 nanograms per deciliter total test.
And yeah, it's a classified as prolactin Oma.
So it's a pituitary tumor that elevates my prolactin
production, female stuff. And just antagonize.
Is that testosterone production? So so 1 through a lot of
struggle there for a bit finally, had a great friend of
mine. She competed and she was a nurse
practitioner. She does figure and this had to
been at least what three four years ago or so, I think and she
said I need to get an MRI and I was like, what MRI?
You know, I'm like don't tell me.
My mom, she gonna freak out right but she said yeah, I went
and saw it in a chronologist. Always people.
They said no, you know, you're fine, but she said I need to get
an MRI. And so I did in there.
It was whole tumor on my pituitary gland and cool.
Part is had a couple different routes of, you know, trying to
do that brain surgery or just take some some medication and I
took the medication route and so we just gotta Implement a
dopamine Agonist. Just to kind of counteract that
prolactin production and then I have been just utilizing some
trt since then just to keep my stuff in range, but some all
healthy all good to go and feel normal, but it's kind of that
story. That's crazy, man.
I mean, that's kind of be like, it's a good thing.
You don't have to have surgery. I mean you can just do it all
you know with the exhaustion of supplementation as opposed to
going under the knife. Yeah.
It was just kind of a thing where you know, I look a success
rate Dad could have done it, but And just the thought of that,
you know, I don't know. I'd rather just try to to go
that route and be healthy, obviously an exercise and eat
properly and just use that form of MBA medication just to try
and syllabus a a, a good life, a good quality of life, but I have
to obviously get brain surgery. And actually, the cool part is,
is from taking what I'm using is called bromocriptine.
I know you're using the fitness stuff and a lot of people follow
you. Probably, you know, I know you.
Are you still natural athlete Robert?
Honestly have hardly any knowledge of anything.
That's not natural. So in like yeah.
Oh no. Yeah.
So essentially I'm taking what's called bromocriptine.
And like I said, the dopamine Agonist different one that a lot
of body, builders might know of as caber or giggling.
It's just a difference. Essentially, in the half-life of
this others to kind of control your parole acted.
But anyways, I've been table 15 for Less.
I don't know. A couple years at least and I
got another MRI the following year and actually the tumor
shrank which is they said it was it would be hit and miss.
If it just stayed the same size or it might shrink.
And so my in show that it shrank, you know, it goes by the
mm in size but still it was a good good little progress.
So I might get another one here this year at the end of the year
and see where we win. But but no, everything's been
going good though. So, She can't complain.
Well, that's awesome news, man. I mean, I remember when we
talked and you, you gave this information to me is like you
didn't know what you were going to do.
And then I saw, you know, you did a show.
What about 20 some odd weeks ago now?
Something like that. Yeah.
Well I started yeah, so I just finished up in 2021.
I did a run of three and I did yeah.
Pre-shows to down here in a Z1 in.
L1 and Tucson actually went and did NPC Nationals for the first
time ever. And that was a great experience,
very humbling, but very great. And we ended up cracking top 10.
So that was for my first time and that was a big
accomplishment. I know a lot of guys were
chasing that Pro card and all that but honestly man, when you
go to an event like that on an NPC level, you know, untested
and I'm only 25 and you know, there's guys up there 30 35, 40
years old to have you The training rate and years of
exhaustion and its use of hormones and all that stuff.
And there are some monsters if it gives you a reality check,
but it's really cool to see. And so yeah, we got we got ready
for that. And definitely was very happy
with how that progression went. Definitely had her own personal
best, you know, so that's what really matters in my eyes.
Well, I mean, just seeing the pictures that you've been
posting Instagram and let me you look freaking ridiculous, dude.
Like you like The people that listen and what are your stance?
I mean you're you're not that heavy and you're not that
tongue, but you look I mean the level of conditioning you
brought the table was out of this world.
Yeah, I appreciate that. That's that's where my only
Fighting Chance is going to be, was a, the conditioning,
exactly. It's because I don't have that
size and most of maturity and I don't like to just for health
purposes to push it the, you know, drug usage, you know, like
like other guys, like I said, I'm just trying to keep it
low-key, just trying to be healthy and I've been pushing
obviously out of the natural route because of my pituitary
tumor. So, my only Fighting Chance and
why I think I've done well like back in 2019.
I did Empire up in Spokane. I won that overall.
And I think the guy that got S. I mean, he had at least 20
pounds on me, but just because of conditioning.
So I just knew that if I'm going to keep doing this, but I'm
gonna have to bring the stress. And so I really want to give a
lot of credit honestly not to myself but to my coach and
Mentor a guy named cliff Wilson. Mm-hmm.
A lot of people think, I don't know.
Maybe you get this too. But as a coach, they assume
that, you know, everything and mean, you know, you're a
professional in the realm, but I'm always a student even though
I am a coach and so Cliff acts looked over my stuff and he's
kind of known for obviously is bringing in condition to
athletes, especially in the natural realm.
And he's actually mentored me for the last probably three or
four years coaching clients together.
Really great guy. And so he looked over my stuff
and he's like, yeah, he's got to bring that conditioning and then
from there, you know, obviously we know our weak points and when
you lose sighs, you know how it is when you get into going to
comp mode and you kind of gotta you gotta weigh out the risk
reward of more conditioning and losing some strong muscle.
The look of the muscle, I guess. Like in my quads, I'll loosen
size and fullness just because I try to bring in the glutes a
little more. It's just that it's just a game
right there is no right or wrong answer.
It's like, you know, we are working with what you got,
right? So let's been in this space for
a long time. And I mean, he's super
respected. He's been around for a while.
He's known for that. Crazy carbohydrate loading like
north of 1,000 grams on occasion, with some athletes
during like the night before the show, right?
Yeah. This is rapid.
Backloading protocol. Yeah.
He actually wrote a book, you know, I don't know if You, you
might have heard of it or he wrote with Docker.
Pete is kinda sure. Yeah, it's kind of test prep
book and he goes through his different peeking methods of
relative to, you know, obviously always starts out with if you
are actually our condition enough to do a proper Peak, we
great. But then depending on what class
if you're male or female, you know, if you're going to be need
versus a bodybuilder, you know, probably would do a different
peaking protocol of the And look.
But yeah, I think what you're talking about.
This is rapid backload with some huge amount of carbohydrate on
the backend, huge hard deplete and then you know, water and
sodium going into the show. Pretty pretty a lot different
than most people would think or do I guess from a traditional or
old-school method, but the really cool thing is is if you
want to dive into that, we can. But the really cool thing is, we
actually learned a lot from doing three shows and we
actually picked differently. All three shows, kind of some of
them were relatively the same, but actually we change the
electrolyte manipulation with potassium actually.
And, and he's noticed an enhanced athletes versus a
natural athlete. The effects of loading, a little
more potassium actually had a lot of, but bigger effect on me,
obviously being in the hands route.
So I just learned a lot of cool data points.
Yeah. Definitely.
I'm curious to Diamond it is because I mean, I'm I've got a
very In Peking strategy without carbohydrates than the sum of
its use in carbohydrates. Like, for you in, going through
these past, three shows. Like, what did you wind up
settling on? Is being the best strategy for
you? That's right.
Yeah, and I would like to know a little more how you peek to with
more the keto Yahweh. Obviously.
Because I've always been interested in because ever since
that show tell you the truth up until now like being with cliff
and seen some of his athletes but prior to even knowing him or
just kind of get introduced with my own clients.
When I first met you, you were hands down the most shredded
person I have ever seen on stage and the crazy part was, you told
me you were doing keto and I said, how do you look?
A hard and full write it without muscle glycogen, you know, like
carbohydrates loading into the muscle and pulling type of
change, water out and all that kind of stuff.
Well, I'd and subject matter. I'll send you a copy.
Oh, really? Okay.
Yeah. No, I'd love to check that out
because it's definitely very interesting of how you guys how
you do it, you know, obviously very differently than the
carbohydrate route. Traditional kind of diving, but
but, but yeah, it's answer your question to find.
The best look. That's what you asked me.
Well, we trialed different Peaks, but different Peaks
relative to my conditioning at the time.
So my first show I was the heaviest and I looked a lot
bigger on stage and I still had gluten lines, but it wasn't as
condition is like Nationals. And it was because the local
show, the original show down here.
The cutoff for Any was for light or middleware, I couldn't do
light weights to the cutoff at 165 was actually 154.
So you came so that's what the kind of know the cut out that
the cut off of that. So I had it, I wasn't going to
do that and sacrifice all that knowing that I have two more
shows ahead of me. So the cap was 176.
So we came in a little heavier. I think showed a, I was around
170 year somewhere in there. Are you again?
Remind me like five. Six.
Five, six five six. Yeah, five six.
Yeah. So so we did that and we saw
some glue lines, but we just ran, you know, essentially a
four-day deplete and then we just kind of how might we it
goes bye-bye types and honestly a big one is ethnicity.
A lot of people might not take that new account with Peak
methods like an African American versus a Caucasian or Jenner
something like this or something of sorts, but what how a my body
kind of responds best is to taper all taper carbohydrates.
Up will say, 3 to 5-day load, as well as you can manipulate
sodium by. Not, you know, a lot of people
traditionally will just kind of drop sodium, will say, three
days out and it's completely get rid of it to try and, you know,
drop Water, right? But there's just so many
mechanisms of needing water, sodium or just electrolytes in
general, and carbohydrates to kind of accumulate muscle
glycogen in the muscle rather than just holding carbs in the
bloodstream and not really loading them properly.
Right? So I would get like, I would say
that we the first show I did probably the second show is the
hardest deplete because I want to get down about 165.
But the first show, I did a moderate to play.
For day, then I just a moderate load because we knew that I
wasn't going to be your end. Look, we want to see how I
responded to. Like.
I said, that potassium and stuff with usage.
We just use like sweet potato stuff like that.
To kind of gauge that and the second show we did a little
harder to pleat just to get down because the second show did have
a 165 cut off. So we got down to Bare and I
brought definitely the most condition, but in order to do
that, you really have to play the game of How hard and the
timeline you are depleting? Because you just need time to
obviously fully fill up. And I think that, that it
probably is what Clips known for is a lot of guys, if they
deplete hard, they never really get back to fully saturated.
But I think people can handle a lot more food than they think if
they are conditioned enough. But anyway, so we did that
second show. And in the funny part is, is
because of the will say it. Your to break between shows and
you bring calories back up a little bit.
And that upregulation. They're going into Nationals
sitting at that 165. I actually didn't have a
deplete. I just maintain exactly where I
was and disc actually got a little increase in food until we
started loading into the show. So it's a plus.
Yeah, you have any idea what your amount like, we were.
You calculating and tracking your sodium and potassium and
inflation. Like, you know, what your mg and
take was of each of those. If I pulled up sheets, I could I
could probably give you a better answer, you know.
Off top my head. I don't have an exact number for
to go by like relative. What's that?
Pretty good bit of sodium though?
What is it? Can you elaborate on what a good
bit would be? Yes, like four million in my
clients. I'll typically have them like
they're based on will be like, you know, four to six thousand
milligrams of sodium a day and then the day before the show
will bump that up, you know, by 1500 to 2000 mg.
So they're like eight thousand milligrams the day before, and
that's probably more than most people consume, but you
typically need a little bit more electrolytes.
If you're doing a ketogenic diet, especially in the
beginning, and I'm going to try to elicit a certain response
like you are. Quake.
But most people probably aren't consuming 8 grams of salt a day.
Yeah. So I totally the would agree
with you like how you're going about that and and blank natural
athletes and then enhanced I've seen immediately you can be done
a little differently but to give you reference mine wasn't quite
as high. Probably I think it was more
about the relative changes and I think Think, I think because of
that, I probably started somewhere around. 3,500 to 4,000
during deplete and then maintain head between a 25 and 3,000
probably during I've been kind of just manipulating last couple
days to see, honestly, where the scale weight was.
So we could we could honestly most people think that you gotta
like deplete and then start loading going into last couple
days of the show, but actually We were able to keep the scale
weight the same or not, keep dropping by just lowering a
little bit of sodium, but actually keeping carbohydrates
tapering up throughout the week. So you're actually loading
glycogen, as you're still kind of starting to pull some
subcutaneous water and just keeping your your scale weight
relatively the same. So I didn't have to, you know,
do any sort of rule cardio or you know, like last minute, you
know, scale manipulation is to weigh in properly at this if the
So I would say that there was probably a little taper down if
anything, but those are kind of like my ranges.
I would say from a 2, to a 4000 kg range sodium.
Rather than that. You said four to eight, I think
Craig. Yeah, it's interesting.
I think like the, the one, the one common, you know,
denominator across all Peak weeks, regardless of the type of
diet you follow, is that you got to be in condition going into
peak week. And I feel like so many people
totally butcher that, And then they just get worse and worse.
As I tried pulling levers haphazardly.
Yeah, 100% in the really cool thing to, I don't know if you've
noticed this, I want to get your thoughts.
But when you're peaking athletes, the more conditions
you can get them or relative to the category or whatever.
They're competing in. But the more condition they can
be the harder, you can push a load, but also the bigger the,
what I call it insurance policy on the athlete we have right?
You seem to be able to fix things a lot easier and you can
say, look, you even do a more of a conservative load.
Much like what's a, a Saturday show and you do like a Monday
through Saturday or do a Tuesday, through Saturday and
you want to do a little conservative of adding carbs and
day over day steadily throughout the week and your case.
I don't know exactly how you would structure that.
But you know, like from a tradition like a carbohydrate
standpoint. You can do a clean up day on
Friday the day before where you can really push things.
And if you see you spill over a little bit, you can clean it up
and pull back at feel like it's really hard to do something of
Sorts when you're not conditioned enough.
And that's, that's the cool part is, I feel like there's a bigger
inch insurance policy, where you can fixing the lot easier.
If you do, get to the level of conditioning.
Yeah. 100%. And if you look amazing going
into Peak Week, like if you've got straining glutes, you know,
on Monday shows on Saturday, even if you don't nail your your
Peak, you're still gonna look super freaking impressive and
that's more than some competitors can say, you know,
so like if you have there if you're on stage and you guys
training It's here already in a standout again, amongst the
competitors. 100%. Yes, exactly.
What you're saying is you can guy, you know, guy it condition
properly can beat and he could peek at maybe 70 to 80%, right?
Of its full Peak and still beat out the guy who hundred percent
take perfectly. That's not as condition.
Bingo, right, so that I would I would agree with that.
Definitely. Do you know, do you remember off
the top of your head? What you're like, calories?
Got down to it. The depth of your deficit there.
Yeah, that's the crazy thing that's going on right now is the
Rica I like the document stuff. You know me.
I'm like a data nerd. So post shows been pretty crazy
how much up regulation that's just been happening with.
My endocrine system is my metabolism General, but but
lowest during Peak actually look at that the other day and I
think I got somewhere around. 1,800 calories.
Maybe it was between was around 17, 1800 I think and my I did
zero cardio the whole time up until probably Last four weeks.
I put in some walking and I think the hardest that second
show, like, I was saying, the hardest deplete for that
four-day deplete was just my normal resistance training and
then it was just 60 minutes of walking day that I was at the
heart farthest. Push.
I guess you could say, but sounds like nothing, right,
compared to a lot of what a lot of people do.
But I think that It's just relative to the PACE, the rate
of loss and what you need to do in order to get to the
conditioning, right? Yeah, totally.
I think you know, a lot of people make the mistake of just
way going overboard with the cardio and I always like try and
think of cardio is minimum viable dose like the least you
can do to get the, you know, a tick in the right direction.
That's what you want to do. I mean, if you can go through
prep with, you know, miniscule amounts of cardio than your
better for it. Yeah, 100%.
I agree. And that's something I can, you
know, kind of brought light shed.
Light was Cliff, you cut actually taught me that is you
can if you take cardio. It's definitely a tool, right?
And it's a tool to push that car gets better to lose body fat,
right? Push that scale way down if
needed. But when you can elongate your
dieting, phaser, maybe give yourself more time, which is
usually the number one thing that I see competitors fail at
doing is giving themselves, actually just enough time.
It's not the peak wig. It's not the right Foods or
whatever eating is not the sole. It's nothing except the primary
thing here is time and patience. And so, the thing I do is when
you're implementing that tool of cardio, I actually advocate of
cutting food first rather than putting in cardio, and I know
there's like your different energy flux systems.
If you're trying to run a higher caloric output with the
hydrochloric intake, still crepe that deficit.
But in my opinion, when you can exert your energy or prioritize
your Gee output with resistance training for muscle preservation
purposes, and then, and then not implementing that cardio because
cardio does take a level of recovery, right?
So just more cortisol responses or just just recovery in general
especially if you're doing hit sessions and stuff, stuff like
that. I just feel like it puts more
strain on your body and I've seen that your overall look
going into your last week. Or peak week, you look a lot
less stressed or a better, you know, blossoming moment of the
end. Look that makes sense.
Yeah, it's much easier to just come in looking super flat.
If you're doing, you know, an hour plus a cardio a day with
any form of cardio, but no, especially for doing longer
forms of cardio, you know, in several days leading up to like,
you're just not going to look as full.
Yeah, Harbor Second. And that's where, like, you
know, I did have to do, like I said, it's no cardio through the
hole and I think I started it. 211.
And, you know, my ending the very last, the Nationals, you
know, I weighed in and 165 or whatever that cap was your start
with lemon. A yeah, I pushed her have your
offices. Yeah, and I usually don't push
it that I probably won't push it that far this time.
But definitely this kind of tried to stay in that gaining
face as long as possible. And I still, you know, still
showed like a little tiny bit of an outline of the ABS, right?
So like, well, Keep pushing it. I guess.
How long was your baby, too? So we started because travel in
the country a little bit there and we started probably spring
or summer of twenty, twenty one. So I had to wait at least a six
or eight months prep, you know, if not a little bit somewhere in
there. You know, I'm always I always
say there's never really an offseason.
There's always on season just different phases of it.
Right? So I was, you know, everything's
being hit and track and manage. But I would say the diet.
In process problem started eight months out or so somewhere
around there. Yeah, I think, you know, that's,
that's definitely a mistake. I see a lot of monks people that
are wanting to lose body fat and lean out, they don't get
themselves near enough time. I mean, my first show before I
knew what the hell I was doing. I was 2:30 and I've never gotten
that heavy since, but I'm only 57 58, so I'm not much taller
than you and I gave myself 12 weeks and I lost 80 pounds in 12
weeks. Oh my God.
Total nightmare. Like it was like, I would not
wish that on my worst. It's enemy.
So now I give myself like, you know, five, six months pretty
much as just a baseline like, no matter what, I'm giving myself
five or six months, but now I honestly stay like I'm one 81-83
right now and I compete in like 160.
So I'm still within about 20 pounds of stage.
Wait. Yeah, and I love that, too,
because you get in here. I don't know how you feel.
You'd let me know, but, like, you getting your optimal kind of
performance range, right? You have like your your range
that you fluctuate? Maybe 15, 20 pounds.
Up and down but still feel like your training is productive
energy. I mean, everything is going
working well and you can kind of bounce up and down throughout
that scale range. Still make progress.
But yeah, not set yourself up for a prep.
You got to lose 50 plus pounds because that's that's mentally
grueling. I see people do it and I'm like,
man, that's that's a lot. Like I wouldn't even do that.
You know, it's, you know, know it's it's a it's definitely a
mind trip when you get a see the You see the scale?
Drop that much time to know that you're going to be competitive.
I mean like right now I do, I mean I'm stronger than ever
been. Right now.
I'm lifting heavier and look at hoarder feel really good.
But I go run every day. Like I'm a, I'm doing a 50 mile
run this weekend. Holy cow, dude, that's crazy.
But it's kind of, its kind of weird doing that.
David Goggins four by four by forty eight.
So running for Miles every four hours for 48 hours.
So 48 miles by probably going to do another two to make it an
even 50, but I don't think that's Conducive to
bodybuilding. Like I'm not suggesting that,
then people do that. But besides that, I'm running,
like a mile every single day, just because I like the, you
know, mental break that it gives me, but I'm probably going to
stop that after this 50-mile deal because I'm going to start
prepping again later this year. And I want to make sure that my
cardio bass lines a little bit lower than running every single
day. Yeah.
I know, that totally makes
sense. And, you know, honestly, dude, I
would say, from a physiological. A logical perspective.
Like yeah, it just not as beneficial to body like you
said, but I think that it has actually a huge impact of, you
know, you doing that. That that correlates over into
the psychological part of contest dieting, right?
Yeah, for sure. And a lot of people they don't,
I don't think about that. Have the mental part of it.
But, you know, you tell me your thoughts, but I think that to
get to the conditioning, you need to get to.
And you can have the best strategy in place, but if you're
not able to mentally withstand the, you know what, it takes to
get there. Then you know, you don't have
all the tools in the toolbox yet.
You know what I mean? Yeah.
I mean, my my my best attribute as a body butter is certainly
not my size or stature genetics or any of that stuff like my,
you know, trick, so to speak. It just simply being
relentlessly consistent towards whatever I say I'm going to do
it. I've got to set macros for the
week. I will not deviate it from.
If I've got a training. Plan for that day.
I will not deviate from, like, I just am consistent with
everything throughout the entire four, five, six months span, and
that's my hack. So to speak, you know, I love
it. Now.
That's what, and that's the funny part.
It's a lot of people, I feel like you're out there looking
for all this information of how to do their diet, early
training, and all that. And that's all viable stuff.
Right, but I think that, you know what, I started to notice
this myself naturally, preaching more as the psychological part
of whether it's dieting or Are gaining days or a contest prep
or just a normal? You know, my mom just had a
couple of kids trying to get back into it or a military guy
like no different demographics. You know, I feel like that
psychological component. Like you said, it's your own
pack, but I feel like that's become in my eyes, really big.
If not the biggest portion of the pie, the people, if they get
a hold of that, and they can conquer and create that, like
you said, would you say Relentless consistency?
I love that. Yeah.
If you can adapt, that is the skill set or have it, you know,
make it habitual. I mean, you're pretty much
Unstoppable at that point, you know, I feel like that's that's
the one thing that I mean, it doesn't like when you look at
bodybuilding and you and I both body butter.
So I feel like it's very says, like you can dive super deep
into the rabbit hole of nutrition or training or
programming or any of that stuff like you can go as deep as you
want to get with that. But if you if you extrapolate
all that out and just look at it from a high-level view, like you
can look pretty freaking awesome with the Basics with the common
sense techniques, and it's honestly not that, you know,
it's pretty, it's pretty simple. It's not easy, but it's pretty
simple. So if you just simply
consistently, apply those techniques apply, those
common-sense principles, you're going to look pretty.
Dang, good, but most people falter with that consistency
aspect of it. So you get that down, then it's
all downhill from there. Yeah, no, I don't resent doing
that. The thing that's not sexy.
Right? The thing is called consistency
of doing the same thing day in and day out.
It's not, it's not the sexy things being marketed to saying,
it's a quick fix and all that. So it is hard and I totally get
that and I do think that there is a little bit of the mental
part of like, being able to adapt that skill set, but I want
to know, because I have been really kind.
Transitioning. Our like go about things with
coaching people over the last probably a year or two.
But how do you approach clients with their nutritional kind of
structure of the flexibility of it within a macro count?
Yes. I mean, I've got like the way I
do my clients and this is going to hold true, whether they're
stepping on the stage, trying to improve the body comp, but I
give them macros every single week.
So I adjust their macros on Friday or Saturday for the
Coming week. I have a spreadsheet.
I put the macros in there and then I basically have them get
within five grams of those goal, macros, if possible.
It's kind of like, the way you want to drive, because if
they're consistently getting within 5, G that I'm able to see
how their body is responding, and then I can make better
adjustments from going forward. So all my clients are ketogenic.
So they're all, you know, following a ketogenic macro
distribution, but they have more flexibility with regards to like
if they want to mix up the types of fats and types of proteins
and types of vegetables are using to hit those.
Macros, and then it's all coming from good quality sources, like,
I'm fine with that. Gotcha know, that sounds kind of
like how I go about it in a more of a traditional macro
distribution is to macro count, just kind of adjust things
accordingly and checking and stuff like that.
Because I feel like maybe you notice that client like prior to
being a client like applicants it previous programs or diet
plans or whatever they started with getting into and we'll just
make an example of the key. World.
They were like following a specific laid out meal plan
before coming to you. Do you often see that?
Yeah, see that a lot in. I've got I'm honestly like never
really been a fan of meal plans because I people people and they
just look at a standardized meal plan.
They see. I don't even way out their food
have a time. They just say, Okay, chicken
breast and broccoli. So I'll just eat chicken breast
and Bach broccoli. With no, no, inkling of an idea
of how much chicken breast or broccoli.
They want to do, but at the same time, one of the arguments I've
seen in favor of meal plans. If you're weighing it out
obviously, is that a lot of times people just do macros and
they're pretty removed from the equation.
Like, coaches will just send a, you know, an email to her client
with the, with some accurate recommendations and their
clients will deviate, you know, quite a bit broader than that, 5
grand window, for instance and then it becomes really hard to
get things dialed in as well. So in that scenario, it might
make sense to have a meal plan. I mean, you can't have to just
like for me, I'm very, you know, straight for with my clients.
I'm like, look, I can't really be the best coach I can be for
you. If you're not even hitting the
numbers I'm giving you. So if you're not seeing the
results that you're wanting, but you're not hitting anywhere
close to the numbers. I'm giving you like, this is
just a good fit, you know? Yeah, 100%.
I love that. Yeah, I feel like there's the
needs to be more transparency like that in the realm of the
fitness room. But, um, yeah, I was asking you
because, you know, I'm noticing the same thing with with
Starting out with fad dieting, right?
Or yo-yo dieting before maybe coming on board and seeing for a
good fit. Maybe you experienced applicants
coming in and they tried like I said, diet plan or something
where they may be did get a little progress, but then I
gained the weight back and now they're looking for that answer
and I feel like going the route that you explain, and that's
I've really transitioned. I was already like that but I do
have deeper into the psychological part of that over
the last Year 2 of actually being able to provide more
education to the client when having that flexible approach,
because I feel like a lot of times people will will say,
okay, what do I need to be eating?
And they will say, in terms of our food selection, or food,
type, or Source, or how many calories, or, you know, what
should I be eating? What is the best thing to lose
fat? One and say, for example, and
it's really there's so many other factors that go into it in
my eyes. Eyes.
And maybe you've seen this as the process of understanding and
learning how to adapt is the biggest skill that if people can
really acquire, it's not like everybody can measure out on a
scale, 4 ounces, right? But being able to be able to
withstand curveballs or audibles.
I call you gotta, you gotta get a call, your audible during the
day, when your work schedule, your social event schedule your
you know, school schedule, whatever it is all of those
factors in your day to day. Obviously will impact what we're
able to eat when we're able to eat, you know, all those things.
Right? And so, that's what I've really
realized is, is over last couple years is understanding what
makes people tick and how they handle stress, and how they're
able to adapt. And I feel like going that
flexible approach, if you want to throw in some meal timing, if
you want, you know, different level of clients.
They're wanting different things of how crazy into it.
They are right. Or is more a lifestyle approach
workers. Is more of a contest prep, but
but being able to educate them and help them in their specific
scenarios of what their schedule looks like with their stress.
Looks like, and all that kind of stuff like allows clients to now
just progress and have progress or have results.
But also learn how to sustain it for long term.
No, I mean 100% agreement never get, you know clients that like
they're in a building phase or not really as strict with their
macro tracking. There, you know, we're ensuring
that they're getting enough calories enough protein, etc.
Etc. And all their lips are going up.
You know, that's great. That's sustainable for them
where they're at. If somebody's coming to me and
they're want to Simply, you know, get to the desired body
composition as efficiently and effectively as possible and pull
out all the stops and a perfect world scenario.
Then I've got them hitting those macros within 5, G and meal
prepping, and the beauty of Aikido, you know, approach to
this is that meal prep is so much easier.
Because I mean, I'm only typically One or two meals a
day, like when you're eating once or twice a day meal prep is
a breeze. Yeah, that is one thing.
I've always even think I'd last time we talked away backgrounds
and I gotta try this keto thing because man, like not time prep
in and and running, he like, he tells energy like you feel
better. No, no insulin spikes and
crashes, blood, glucose crashes during the day, you know, and
all that stuff. So because yeah, they're great.
Now I got told you by Lois, Clark and table.
Outside with your hunter or something sorts, but now up
regulating show. It's been crazy because I wanted
to document it for people to understand what is possible.
Coming out of a dieting face. Going back into a controlled
increase of food, going into maintenance and then a slight
Surplus even, but I think that I'm experiencing an unusual
amount honestly, right now. I'm, you know, I don't know how
much you've seen. My, my stories and stuff from
about 11. Weeks post.
Show. I still have my glutes striated
and I'm eating like 3,600 calories online low days and
4000 on my high days. So that's that's so important.
And so I definitely want to talk on that because I see if I had
to pinpoint the biggest. I don't know misstep that I see
people making and nutritional, you know, dietary circles and
body re compositional circles. It's that people are chronically
restricting. And they don't know how to
properly reverse diet. So I've been beaten that horse.
You know, from day one screaming from the rooftops, but I think
you know, you've done a you Illustrated perfectly, what's
possible? If you're coming out of a
deficit and you got a plan, you get a strategy and you increase
those calories with that strategy.
And I mean, you're holding on to all your definition and you look
freaking amazing. And you're eating, you know,
3,000 4,000 calories a day. Yeah.
No, we could definitely dive
into that because I think I would like to hear more about
your approach with a post-show to because I think back when you
Figure out what show you did. You told me you were going to do
somebody else's post show fat, loading or something of sorts,
right? And you just blasted fat super
high, super high, caloric intake, and you actually stayed
straight it for you. No, I'm saying I would like to
learn a little more about what you did to but yeah, definitely,
I think we can dive into what happened, doing.
Whatever questions you got. Are you doing just like a slow
and gradual increase of all, macros, or across the board
coming out of the shower? Kind of, how do you have that
broken down? Yeah, I think that kind of what
I've learned and notices for competitors.
Let's say what slightly we treat this process like a like pushing
like a pendulum right harder. You push the pendulum the
harder. It can come back at you, write
the force. So I think that most times I can
you just brought up is especially see this with bikini
competitors, but the, when you push super hard and we'll A were
in a deficit, for a long time. We get to that conditioning, we
need should be low in calories. The first initial thought
there's this mind game because the body image is a factor.
You got to play into of the person but they offer.
Oftentimes will go post show and they'll eat all this food binge
or whatever, right? And then they'll see some scale,
adjusting adjustments, sea, water, retention, and then
they'll immediately resort to not liking that.
Look and look, go back down to the lower intake of calories of
what they were at. The problem is is because of,
you know, metabolic adaptation. You are adapted to that low
caloric intake and all that pulse of food does not mean that
you just upregulated your metabolism to be able to meet
those standards going forward, right?
So when you accumulate body fat, you're still have a suppressed,
you know, hormones all across the board.
Essentially where Doing that. Like, how do I put this?
You can't just go die it again. Like, you can't just go back and
do things, right? You can't that you're gonna have
to try and dry it off the fat. You just died it off.
But in order to do that, you'd have to go even lower.
Yeah even lower than you were already doing before because
your adapted it that maintenance right?
So I think the on the opposite end coma coming out of the show
people can actually be a little more aggressive.
With putting in food, then what people would think if here's the
caveat if it's in a controlled manner, right?
That's the hardest part for people is the aspect of
post-show or post dieting to Annex decent, you know.
Trim level body. Fat is.
If they binge then, increasing food at a rapid rate is not
going to work, but because of what we just explained before,
but if you do in a controlled fashion, like, for example, I
think for myself For I know that my frame and mind, you know,
metabolic function is different than other people, but I think I
added in at least 90 100 grams of carbs, straight, right?
After, you know, show go into my next week and at least probably
15, 20 grams of fat, you know, I increase counters really quick
and got my calories up pretty fast the first probably three to
four weeks but didn't controlled fashion.
I didn't bend, I didn't overeat. I mean, heck Cliff, he had to
convince me to go out to eat with Kaylee.
My fiancé because I'm like, no, no.
No, I want to I want to see what happened as we're filling up
here to see if we can even PQ and harder.
Right? That's me.
That's my mindset. And I'm like, no, I the
sufferings. Okay, let's just keep trying new
things and see what happens. Right?
So, but, uh, but yeah, so I would say that once you go
through this process, where you can probably you can push food
least from my traditional kind of will say carbohydrates and
bringing those up as well as fat.
I would say the protein stays the same.
In my lowest protein intake, those probably 230 grams and you
keep your protein. Pretty much constant throughout
the whole prep, right? Yeah, I would say that will
actually push protein higher in the offseason.
Once you're like, wait what? But I just really like to try
and preserve as much insulin resistance.
So we'll push, you know, obviously carbon fats as high as
we can go. They'll start adding some
protein and kind of inching our way and then actually most
people will say Don't cut protein during the battle phase.
But I think that I mean I get the the logic, the theory behind
that but well actually cut things out.
You gotta Cook County, good cook a little tray, right?
And so I think they will say my top end for last offseason,
probably 260 to 270 grams protein intake and then we'll
just kind of chipped away at that a little bit.
Do you remember my Prime was at that show that you saw me in?
No, I don't feel much like raised, but you'll never guess
it. I remember, I couldn't of you're
following your stuff and I was trying to understand it better
and I don't matter if you're liking the hundreds.
So g 65. Yeah, and that's it for.
I go any further. Let me just tell people.
Listen. I'm not advocating people at 65
grams of protein. I was basically just pushing the
envelope to see how low I could go without any adverse effects.
And I went to 65 grams for a finite period of time and saw no
adverse. X, but it's crazy because like
you tell that to people in the traditional, you know,
bodybuilding protocols. It's like, you know, they're
doing 265 grams. Yeah, exactly.
No, you're out of the right. And that's where I think that,
you know, you're the trigger queue approach for sure is loved
every exercise. I know you gotta I'm not in full
understanding of all the same in-depth information is like,
you probably utilizing but to withhold muscle tissue.
It's a little different. I think that a lot of Quito get
it isn't there? Like variations, you know, with
like a, what's the name? Date Palumbo.
Kind of Quito. Whatever it will save
bodybuilder Realm. Is variation and there's like a
key will even try and convince me.
This is like a cheap carbohydrate load muscle,
brought muscle glycogen replenishment on, you know, once
a week and then dive back into ketosis and he will show me
different routes, and I don't know what your exact route is of
what you follow, but I think it sounds like the more actual
medicinal, like, traditional route of a ketogenic diet.
Is that what you kind of follow? Yeah, man.
It's kind of crazy, like, like the die.
Diets. The ketogenic that's kind of
gotten bastardized over the past few years.
Like people have got these different versions of key to the
point where it's not even key to any more like you doing car
Bumps by definition. It's not keto.
I mean, that's just yeah, that's what I was.
I was I was wondering because I've because obviously you're
not going to self out and filling up and but I've noticed
I don't know if you tried it, but people who go deeper into
ketosis. I've seen some data points where
the deeper you go into. Joseph.
I've been have that carbohydrate day and maybe supplement with
some other figure out what kind of salt beach be or yeah,
different salts. They try to bring yourself back
into ketosis, but the deeper your in ketosis.
The easier it is to get back into keto secret.
Knock yourself out. Is that, is that true that
valid? I'm not really sure.
Yeah. I mean, your body, your body
develops, metabolic pathways to shuttle ketones, you know,
through the body. So like if you are in a deep
level of ketosis, you it's like you're losing all those
metabolic pathways. If you deviate And so it's
definitely easier to get back on track when you do and people
that do go back and forth, you know, like that's their money,
their prerogative more power to them.
But my thing is always been trying to optimize bodybuilding
natural bodybuilding from a ketogenic standpoint while
following a legitimate ketogenic diets.
So I've not done the crazy car Buffs since I've been doing it
Quito. Yeah, but I'm isn't, I mean
people have been getting freakin crazy lean and when it shows
doing all kinds of diets, so yeah, great.
There's a lot of different ways. It's going to cancel.
Let us think, you know as yep. Exactly. %.
Ya know, and that's that's very interesting because I think, I
even remember seeing some of your some content about body
composition stuff and especially your strength.
You're like, hey, I haven't had any carbs today and I just ER,
right? And it's just really
interesting. It's cool to see and that's why
I feel like there's. He's, there's coaches out there
that are like preach one thing. Just one thing and talk shit
about the other. Honestly, rip the real.
E of it is that I don't think there needs to be a bunch of
trash talking and everybody has their own methodology and not,
everybody can be like you just said it's not what more than
her. There's more than one way to
skin a cat. And I think that the cool part
is were all chasing like Optimal results with that one pathway
that we really enjoy learning more about and then comparing
it, right? And we're always trying to be
the winner, obviously, because we're all competitive, like, are
always better, but there's obviously a clickable stuff.
Each individual kind of nutrition route.
Like I think that and I was going to ask you about this too,
because I had a buddy that diagnosed with cancer.
I think it was about a year ago or something and he got it all
figured out, but I saw that he's one of my best friends are like
bad. I don't I'm not familiar or in
depth with the information for ketogenic diet and to Aid in
this. But I do know that there is a
lot of evidence out there. I just have a dope into it, you
know. And I was going to ask you about
is if you've, if you did of into the kind of more the medical or
that disease route with utilizing that the ketogenic
diet. I mean, that's probably where
the ketogenic that truly shines. I mean, they're the research
that's been done and is being done right now.
From a medical front for using the kids drink diet, for
patients with cancer near generative disease like that.
That's what's got me more excited to anything in the
performance realm, to be honest. I love the performance from, I
mean, I'm a performance athletes.
That's A, what I resonate most with, but the efficacy of the
kids drink diet, in mitigating the adverse effects of cancer
patients. And people who have Alzheimer's
dementia, things of that nature is really, really promising.
Yeah, that's what I've seen and so that's what sparked my
interest about it too. But yeah, I really like that.
How your that's kind of a traditional, you know, medicinal
route. And I like how you're putting it
in the performance for them because a lot of people have
different opinions. Obviously, but you're showcasing
that, you know, keto still has its still it's not, it shouldn't
be overlooked. I guess in terms of performance,
right? Yeah, our body billion general,
you know, and so because I'll yeah, you're like, the underdog.
I love that. You know what I'm saying,
especially the bodybuilding room.
Yeah. I feel like bodybuilders are
definitely going to be the last to adopt or even.
I don't need to know if I ever will adopt in legitimate.
Ketogenic approach form, you know, mainstream bodybuilding.
It's probably always. Going to be on The Fringe.
But I mean, I'm okay with that. Like, I'm not trying to take
over the world with what the prominent dining protocol is by
any means. And, you know, to each their own
whatever's, most sustainable to you and best for you, you know,
keep doing that. I mean, that's why I want to get
you on the show because, I mean, you look freaking amazing.
You look healthy, you're eating, you know, ton of calories.
Now, post-show. You got a smile on your face.
I mean, you're obviously doing something, right?
Yeah. No, I appreciate that.
Yeah, it's been fun. It's been interesting to just
see cuz I'm just like I said a big advocate of just constant
constantly acquiring his most consistent data as I possibly
can going forward, right? I think that a lot of people
probably think I'm crazy. Honestly.
Because post-show, all, they're thinking about is burger and
fries or whatever the hell they think about.
But I told kettle of gaily and like, look, I got to be able to
track if we're gonna go out to eat or whatever we're doing it.
Can we just cook here? Because I want to be able to
track and see what happens because you're just in such a
Sort of position that you're not going to be able to maintain,
you shouldn't maintained for a long-standing period of time,
just from an appearance standpoint, but I want to
acquire as much data as I possibly can because that data
gives you the ability to make really good projections for the
future. You know what I mean?
It's so kind. So editors to just go off the
rails. Post-show, and even if they're
tracking, like, they'll have, like, one or two or three days
that are just not tracking, and then it's just like, it's total
crap. She like, you have no idea what
you're taking in. It's probably north of 10,000
calories. I mean, it's just a ton of food,
and I've got one client right now.
She's a bikini competitor. She competed 22 weeks ago and we
got her down. I think as low as I think 1400
calories was as low as we went and she's been reversed outing
since then and she's currently at 2,100 calories.
And she weighs she weighed 113 on show day and she weighs 110
now lifting more weight on all of her lips, like, Considerably
and of all, my clients. She's probably the one that has
been the strictest. Post-show like, she's like,
hitting all your Macros on the hand like perfectly, post-show
like, like as if she were doing a print.
Like, she's post-show now, though.
So, like seeing that kind of opened my eyes to the point
because even I like I'll get a little more aggressive because I
know I can post show and I'll stay, you know, within a
reasonable weight, but I don't get nearly as strict as she has
been but seeing her as strict as she had, it's like shoot.
I'm motivated to go this rigid with it because I mean seeing
her weight actually go down and her conditioning continue to
improve while her lips have gone up.
It's like it's kind of eye-opening to me.
Yeah. No, I love that too.
And that's, that's super cool. You got to witness and you had
somebody that could eventually do with stained and actually go
through that control environment because yeah, you get to see a
lot of very interesting things that I think that, you know,
reversing out of that. It didn't go in a controlled
route and The Implement more calories is just starting to
shed distress off a person, right?
And you can see the just the positive effects of that, and
that's super cool. She even got leaner because
that's what I was experiencing between.
Each of my shows is that little bit of up regulation, especially
after the Nationals and stuff. I started to increase in food
pretty aggressively, but controlled my stret.
I didn't even I most people, you know, how you go to the gym.
Post-show and you have all these carbs loaded and you go and get
a huge pump and your little heavier.
You getting excited to be back in the gym, but you're still
your body still like fatigue from that extensive.
Oh, yeah. Hounding, you just put on it.
Right? And so what I really prioritized
is sleep, and actually I reduced my training intensity where like
I would go in the gym and I would not trained like, you know
soft, but I wouldn't be training.
Super intensely, you know, just getting some Amen.
And prioritizing honestly distress and and and I kind of
started separate my mind away from bodybuilding and more into,
like, my business and my relationship with my fiancé,
just kind of get my mind off things that I've been in that
realm for the last six to eight months.
Right. And started try to shed stress
off and I felt like in doing so and trying to recover for more
of an internal endocrine standpoint.
I feel like that, you know, I don't know for sure.
I don't have a Actual science or data showing this.
But I would assume that I have some correlation to the amount
of increased caloric intake that I've been able to withstand and
still hold this lower body fat percentage, you know, percent
and with you, you know what I mean?
So I like I said, I'll have like actual scientific blood markers
and all this kind of stuff, the Showcase.
But I do think there is definitely some some Merit
behind people may be focusing a little more on their stress
reduction. And maybe pulling back on the
intensity of your training plan. Your body like recover for a
second and focusing outside of body building or whatever it is.
Is it your stress or your mind, you know, all those emotional
emotions and stuff fluctuating during prep, when you're in
local or levels and low body fat levels, all that kind of stuff,
obviously happens, but coming out of it.
Yeah. I don't know your thoughts and
what she's kind of relate to you in terms of post-show and
reverse dieting and going through that, even maybe do you
notice that? It by fat percentage is
withstanding or if I should getting leaner.
She's deaf. I mean, she's I mean her body
fat probably stayed pretty consistent.
But I mean, it's like it hasn't gone up from what it was during
peak week, which is quite. So it's already like at its
lowest and it's very still showcasing all those same lines
and separation between the muscles.
So I mean, she looks amazing and she's lifting heavier.
So I mean that's been a pretty big eye-opener to see there but
100% agree with you on the stress.
I mean, I think the amount of I mean if you're crazy stress, All
of them in your testosterone is going to take a massive
nosedive. If you're not sleeping your
recovery. So your training frequency and
intensity is going to dive. I mean, everything is going to
be dictated based off of your levels of stress and I feel like
my personality type is such that I just white-knuckle it all the
way through which only increases stress and kind of wines a foot.
I think all these body butters are just smoke weed throughout
their entire pressure on it became that, that's not what I'm
doing, but I Feel like I feel like there's probably some
method to that Madness, you know, you just like in this
happy-go-lucky mind-state the whole way through and like you
probably feel and perform better because of it.
Yeah. No, I remember back to the yeah.
It's a lot of love by Builders do and they like no, I don't
drink. I just smoke weed and I'm like,
okay, but I totally get it. Like you're right.
I think probably some method to that Madness, but I'm just not a
huge. I'm not a person that, you know,
smokes weed. But yeah, I can see why and I
think that as long as they can keep their sleep actually
getting into REM Cycles everything while, you know,
using that as an aide. And yeah, I bet you probably
helps them a lot. But yeah, I think that will
happen the same as you though, white-knuckling it and that's
kind of the biggest lot of people say.
Yeah, when they will say they do well, they were in a show or
they placed a certain placing at Nationals and everybody's
congratulating me. You know, me on some of those SS
I had and I really appreciate it and it's it's awesome to feel
like you accomplished something in that sorts, but really my
biggest accomplishment for those this last contest prep had
nothing to do with my placing or any of that stuff.
It's it was actually the growth in the mental part of prep,
being able to manage emotions stress work life social life.
All those balances and still being able to achieve that level
of conditioning that I got to. If that makes sense totally
mild. It's super commendable.
Yeah. This because like that was my I
guess it kind of came up because I remember it was probably and
Club hasn't peed in a while because of some things going on,
but it's probably like two three years ago.
I think it was funny, guys, Pro card.
I remember talking with them and he was in peak week and he's
laughing. And on the phone happy-go-lucky
and I see. And he said, yeah, I'm just kind
of busy. I'm moving houses right now.
I said, you're in, we're peak week and you're moving like,
like, you have the energy to do that.
Yeah. Yeah.
We were just getting it done. And it took that moment where he
told me, you know, his biggest accomplishment was when his wife
at the time, they're not tail anymore, but I told him that she
didn't notice a difference of Is him personally of the
personality, or snapping at or any of those kind of variables
from the time, he was out of prep to the day of the show
email. He withstood his character
personality. He was, you know, showed the
tension or, you know, they have a daughter.
Now, all those factors and life, a lot of people.
I feel like start to sacrifice or feel like they need to
sacrifice certain things in order to keep progressing.
And in terms of getting to that Elite level of conditioning,
right? Right, could ya your energies
down emotions? Are a little elevated, all that
stuff. But I think that everybody has
control or is has the ability to control those factors, right?
No, I think that should be the goal, for sure.
I don't know that I've made through yet.
Like my wife can definitely tell when I'm in a prep versus low,
however, say, yeah, definitely not made there.
But at least you keep inching your way.
I think every prep you will get better and better but that's
kind of like my goal. And so that.
Yeah, tell me yours. Experience though.
Yeah, I think I think that definitely improves with the
number of preps. You go through collect the first
prep, you do you have no perspective.
And with that complete, lack of perspective, you have this
massive fear of the unknown and that Stress and Anxiety weighs.
So heavily on you and your day-to-day, you know, demeanor
that you just become this miserable wreck.
No matter what you're doing. And then as you do, more and
more certain like, the first row is always the hardest, but then,
as you Do more and more shows and you gain that perspective
like you're able to juggle everything much more efficient
and it's not like this huge overbearing weight that just
constantly burdens you. Yeah.
No, I agree 100% because exactly what you said, a lot of people
don't take into account just that stress of the unknowing,
right? It's just like anything in life
when you don't know it just you know, know how to prepare for or
anything like that. Right?
And so yeah, I would definitely say the first show is probably
the most exciting because you're getting on, you know, for the
first time on stage and optional this but definitely the most
stressful, the Because I think that it's like that mental
barrier that each show or each, but maybe you've seen this,
you've been able to push a little further down with a
little more Comfort. I guess you'd say that because
you know when that next phase of.
Okay, here's when the brain fog starts to kick in or here's
where I know my energies might get down a little bit or here's
where, you know, whatever happens like it's just going to
happen. Right?
And you just got to embrace it. That this is part of the
process, right? Totally man.
Um, so I I agree with you there. I'm curious.
Have you noticed? Because you competed naturally
prior to the the tumor, right? Yeah.
Have you noticed like what have you noticed in regards to
changes in performance recovery, sleep energy conditioning with
the addition of the trt. Like, is it pretty tangible
difference? What's a good question?
A lot of moving factors there? I would say that.
The look of the physique, I can say definitely different.
And I've actually tried to, it's funny.
I've been texting, you know, I'm enhanced and using these
different. I've used testosterone, but I'll
be completely transparent, usage of different Peds as well.
And the funny part is, is the more I'm trying to be in the
growth of gain muscle tissue and going down this route of the
untested and PC. And ifbb is I'm trying to
withstand Natural body. Builders look, just with a
bigger this more muscle mass accumulated.
Does that make sense? Yeah, like tight, good stuff.
Tight waist. Actual death.
Like the Shred, the striations and the cuts and everything from
a natural body builder perspective.
Like I've seen the look is a lot different especially in the
enhance world. When people push chillingly hard
drug usage, especially implementing, you know, if
you're using form of insulin and different, The look of the
muscle just becomes different. It's a little more inflated.
You don't see as many lines. Right?
And I really admire and respect heavily, the look of natural
body builders because you could tell, you can like really tell
their hard-earned what like their life story through their
muscle density and all this kind of stuff.
Right? It's kind of weird to say, but
that's it just it's more of an art look, you know, it's actual
aesthetically pleasing in my eyes.
And so I try to chase that That and that's why I another I'm an
advocate of not pushing super hard with that increased from
usage because yeah, it's gonna take me a lot longer.
If I even one day potentially turn pro.
Who knows? I'm not worried about it, but
it'll take me because of my process is a lot different than
guys. So I figure out my age pushing
at least four times the amount or five times or more that I use
in terms of drug usage, to try and get as big as possible to be
able to be to the size that you need to be in order to play at
the highwomen. Our level of by Billy great but
it's not really what it's all about my eyes.
I totally get it and respect it and you know, people go that
route. That's totally cool.
That's their choice. Right?
But in my eyes it's funny to say but I feel like I'm chasing a
natural body. Builders.
Look just with more accumulated muscle tissue, right?
Yeah. Now, there's definitely a
different look that I've tried to, like, pinpointed and put it
into words, but I feel like you didn't much better job than I
could have, but it's like The the depth of the, the muscle
cuts and the grayness and just the level of conditioning seems
to pop a lot more on like the the world's greatest natural
competitor. Looks much more conditioned in
the world's greatest enhanced competitor, you know, like on
IMDb stage in my opinion. Yeah.
Yeah, I guess that paper thin but just the especially the
glutes everything. Yeah.
I just it's just a different look and I don't know.
You know, can't say all the mechanisms behind it and
everything. Obviously, this enhanced
anabolic effects of the Peds. And now, the one thing that I
learned heavily lifted to, it was great to see, we recorded,
very stringent data points, but the usage of certain compounds.
But also, when removing certain compounds at certain times,
definitely heavily affects the ending look.
Because, actually, once I removed things, Some things and
technically, post-show just coming, you know, releasing all
that. And just being on tier key dose
of testosterone for a little bit, and I actually just got
done bridging with, no testosterone replacement
therapy. And just having a doctor
familiar with bridging protocols or PCT.
Protocols of using terms, like clomiphene or people use
different ones with a CG in there to kind of stimulate
natural production again, but I was It more for fertility
purposes because I know couldn't stay there forever and keep a
good range of testosterone but for fertility purposes, so
hopefully that's yeah. Yeah, right.
I just bridge look that but I noticed that the retention of
water is that the look I've started almost look a little bit
harder. Coming off some things that
really opened the eyes of Life gate who probably could actually
change things and not have to deplete so hard.
The come into this, the cap of the scale, wait for that
division that we want to get to without having to push more
stress, but actually just made me bring a little bit of dosages
or compound in a certain way. That makes sense.
Yeah. So very, very, very interesting
kind of data points. We got there, but in terms of, I
don't know what you ask maybe like in terms of dieting or
training and Recovery, you said yeah and like any like, strength
changes. I would imagine your ability to
Raintree. Pain muscle and continue to lift
as hard. And heavy is probably heads a
little bit in the favor of one. That is enhanced.
Yeah, I would say. So I say, I personally
experienced more of those strengths and those kind of
wholeness and they all that kind of stuff more and my offseason
when implementing something or my sorry, not in the dieting for
that cuz I don't say offseason rates on season, but just in a
higher body fat percentage when you're not dieting for show,
yeah. That's what I would notice.
Usually a lot more but I would say yeah muscle preservation.
Definitely. I've noticed the keeping I was
holding on. I was really trying to hold on
to my quad fullness as per dear life, you know, and finally it
was just kind of the last week's.
It'll you made a decision to bring in the glutes L'Amour
obviously. And you know, I the end look was
what I was couldn't. Couldn't have beat it.
I had my opinion, but but yeah, I definitely think that holding
on Strengthen and some fullness of the muscle muscle
preservation, almost things definitely enhance athlete.
You can hold onto. You can usually push a little
harder to you'll notice like with my enhanced versus my
natural competitors, depending on how you do your your prep.
If you push. Like I push harder personally on
the front end of a dating phase. So most people get confused when
I'm like, okay, we're five months out, six months out.
We're going to start trying to lose it.
A pound and a half or two pound loss a week.
Right now, they're like, wait, what?
We're so far out, but it's just thinking about the foreshadowing
of the few. Like, what's going to separate
you? From your competition on stage.
You can separate them by conditioning, right?
And so usually, you know, everybody's pushing eight weeks
out. Everybody's doing tons of cardio
and eating nothing and, you know, trying to get shredded,
but what are they doing right now?
Six months out? A lot of people are out messed
around bars and all that kind of stuff.
But the reality of it is, if you could push now at a higher body
fat percentage, it gives you a chance to Reservoir of that
muscle tissue when you are at a leaner body fat percentage, if
you slow down that rate of loss, when you are leaner, right?
So that's kind of how I go about things for, for those people.
I find out what else we're talking about there.
But yeah, I just wanted to mention.
No, I think that's super important, man.
I feel like you know, a lot of people they they they don't
they're kind of fast and loose with in the beginning and they
just crammed time at the end. It's much better to come into
conditioning earlier or just shy of it and kind of Coast into the
prep or into the peak week as opposed to you know, everything
going ballistic right there at the end percent.
Yeah, and then you might even experience like what you're
talking about with your bikini. Competitor is a as you can
start. Feeding them up into the show
actually. Yeah.
I actually have a feeling I have a guy that's competing in the
he's gonna stretch, it shows on the East Coast, Maryland and one
of them is in Baltimore and I do some over there and you know
what I noticed. Is he didn't know it, but his
sodium intake was so extremely high.
He actually started getting headaches and he wasn't crappy
and I don't have people just like when there's so much to
track. It becomes more stress of so
much to do, right? So normally, I'm not just
natural levels of whatever I try to shoot for at least a 25
hundred, maybe 3000 mg minimum, but I'm not going to be too
standing on it. You know, I know there's going
to be a different fluctuation of water in pictures or whatever.
But I'm not worried about it right now, but he was having
such a high amount of started getting headaches.
And obviously it is fluid consumption.
Couldn't offset. That ratio was just doing some
extreme amount, right? And and so when push them and
he's already either as a guy can metabolize carbohydrates very,
very well. And so it's Clark intake is
still pretty high relatively to most people coming in and being
very lean. And I suspect because we noticed
that And we reducing sodium and he already started just losing
obviously weight, just naturally because of that lowering of
sodium. And I would suspect that because
of that word, actually not going to have to keep cutting food to
get leaner. He's actually going to be
starting to increase food into the show.
Just just because you're looking at a different variable, but but
you're ready early. It's never, it's never bad to be
ready, early. Right?
I think that's what your kind of alluding to.
Yeah, but it sucks. You can't fix when you're not
ready in time. Hey, no, totally mean.
I feel like if you're, if you're able to speak earlier, it's much
easier to hold onto that and kind of add a little bit more
polish than it is to try and fix it on the tail end because then
you could be more aggressive with the amount of the refeed
calories, and, you know, fill out a little bit.
When I do a bunch of trial, refeeds in the weeks, prior to
the actual peak week, so I can figure out what intake of fats
and proteins and electrolytes and water, they respond best to
If you only if you already are coming in sharp, several weeks
prior and you have more weeks to really try that out and
optimized for it and you're way ahead of the game.
Yeah, no, I would I would agree. Yeah, I think that this is my
stretch. I mean I didn't do trial people
Express because I knew I was going to do like three maybe
four shows. So I was using that first one.
I've got a as my trial, I guess you'd say because I wasn't like
a huge or a, you know, Big Show that I was trying to, you know,
do you know win or whatever. And I don't have didn't even
winning that one to piss me off. Absolutely.
This guy came in just don't know where he came from, but he Beat
me out when I got s about one. But anyways, trialing is great
though. I think that you're spot on
there because allows you to see how you personally respond to
your protocol and you're loading and that's where you get to see
and it's okay to spill over, you know, because you can fix it,
you got time, obviously, to then go into your actual Peak and
know, you can't push it as hard, but I think a lot of times
people will find during their trial, Peak is, they can push
actually harder Other than they think?
Yeah, totally. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it kind of gives them confidence to because they can
see where they can, you know, be more aggressive or be more
conservative. And then, if they have that
knowledge going into the actual Peak Week, their level of
stress, during peak week is significantly reduced.
So then they're not holding a much unnecessary fluid from that
stress. 100% Exactly. Exactly.
Yep. I agree. 100% but shoot man.
I don't want to take all your day here.
What's in the pipeline for you? Get me.
I know you're probably done competing for the season.
Yeah, not even trying to get me to bridge over because I seems
like I could be here pretty quickly with just, for some
reason, keeping these low body fat percentages.
But, uh, now I mean, I gotta take time to grow obviously and
who knows when I'll compete again.
Like I said, my primary goal isn't isn't the pro card, but I
just love this stuff and I love being able to acquire more
information to help. I want to be more of a coaching
role, you know, we are insolvent in, right?
Right now, I'm actually in Arizona.
You can pick one of your shows in Washington, still.
Yeah, I did back then. Oh, yeah, when you were up there
and you travel them did that when I was doing my shows and in
Spokane, but now been doing shows in Arizona and I went over
to Florida for Nationals and then who knows where I will be
next. I think that right now I'm
changing gears two more just like a business aspect of just
getting two more shows, I think. Next time, I compete.
Like I said, it's not about the pro cards much as I want to go
meet more people. I want to, you know, show people
and talk more about like my strategy of how to get here and
all that kind of stuff. Just because I want to try and
just just grow. And from a business standpoint.
I guess you'd say, well, instead of just the athlete perspective.
No, man, we can shoot, we can talk with him.
Holding the podcast on business, but we gotta be going to compete
next year, man. We got it.
We got to step on stage the same time, some time, you know.
Oh, man, I gotta push. What are you gonna do?
You feel like I probably will start prepping in November of
this year and then plan on like competing starting in like,
april/may timeframe. That's typically what I wanted
up doing, but I did a, my last prep start in November of 2019
and I had like seven shows lined up had a super busy for in 2005
season, but right, like literally a week and a half
before my first show, covid, hidden all the show.
Oh, no, so I did. That prep work for nothing.
Well enough. Oh, that's so roughly.
I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm cool.
Well, he's gonna die out document a little bit of open
showcase for the people. So, again, like so official
photography done. That was that, that was good.
I mean, I'll be able to use that, you know, on the website
and everything but be, I'm definitely itching to get back
in the back in the prep, you know phase.
Yeah. I know.
I'm excited that to see to give you.
You made a lot of progress in this, seeing their condition.
Before and you hold it just baffles me.
How much muscle tissue you hold as a natural athlete.
I'm just gonna be honest, like, it's just crazy to me.
So you look, you're you're very competitive position going up.
And what? So, what Pro status you have,
you have those, he be and you got, what else have you
accomplished? Because, I know, I know compete
in the the that you and bf, I guess their amateur division.
Okay. I + BF.
I in international body building for yeah NBF, but The pro show
that I won, was that? That's the one that your client
was in an in Spokane. That was WGBH.
Oh TV. Oh, that's all right.
Yeah, I think that's untested. Yeah, that was untested that one
that one, but I definitely want to just focus on the natural
shows, but I would like to get the debu and bf Pro card and
yeah, and I want to compete. Like I've competed in BC before
I don't mind compete in MPC and I kind of for whatever reason.
Like a lot of people like I'm trying to do everything is
totally different with a ketogenic.
Perspective. And a lot of people give me
Flack for saying, you know, I wouldn't be competitive not
having carbs so I can only show them.
I can tell them all day long, but I really seem to show them.
So I kind of wanted I kind of want to beat all their asses and
do so on an untested show. So beat the people that are
using gear and taken in carbs and me beat him with natural
without carbohydrates. Like that's what I want to do.
Yeah, I know. I think you have every
opportunity to do that, too. There's no doubt.
My, I don't know how your shows are around there.
But just from what I saw you and I was freaking three, four,
whatever it was. It was evidence in least three
years ago. Yeah, 17.
That's a long time. So there's no doubt in my mind.
You could do that. I mean, how I know Cliffs even
got vegans. He's better going and doing
Nationals and stuff like that and then PC.
And I really think that pretty broad spectrum.
It's a because he's naturally like, he, Pete's.
He didn't recently but he's still totally natural, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Some, he coaches all kinds. So he's pretty impressive in his
own right for sure. Yeah, and I think that with is
your foundation and it's like you're yeah, I definitely can.
You go to NBC shows in this clean house?
Sure. That want to see you.
I don't know. What is it.
I am BF show or I qualifier to fear wbf.
Yeah, the one in the neck. Springer talked about.
Yeah, so the show and normally doing Washington.
It's the Washington's state Pro-Am Puget.
Sound Pro. Am I and B FW + BF Pro
Qualifier. It's in Marysville Washington.
And that's, that's the one that I've I got second in it.
One year, I got second in it. I won one year and then get
second of the overall. That was when I was that was
before I was key. That was back in 2014, I think.
Ink. And then in 2017 I got second in
it. So I've kind of just you know,
got it. You got a chip on my shoulder to
take the overall title on that show at some point.
Yeah, of course, so that'll be good.
That'll be good. Well, maybe you'll rope me into
it. I will see cuz I might be
becoming a married man around that time and I don't think prep
and get Mary's good, good combo. Probably at the same time, but
We'll see. Okay, that's awesome.
Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, but I know that well,
we'll see cuz I know that instead of going over to Florida
next time. I don't know what was crossing
my mind at a time, but they switched USA's least last year.
They did. I don't know how it will switch
it back, but it was in Vegas, but now it's in Scottsdale,
which is where I live makes it easy.
So, yeah, make it a little easier.
I don't know why, but that's usually in July, but I know
that. That the qualifiers are probably
around the same time, you're talking about April and May or
whatever up in Spokane. The usual timeline, you know, I
do hate how with a lot of match for shows.
Like the a lot of pro qualifying shows are early in the year.
And then you get you know, like world's is the W + BF, big one
and that's like in November. So it's like you gotta have that
massive spanning between show that I'm not a fan of.
Yeah, you think they're more like because you know, they got
like USA's and Junior USA's and National Junior Nationals and
like a couple other ones that are National shows to go pro but
I think in a lot of natural shows, correct me if I'm wrong,
all of those are pro qualifiers rather than like having to do a
national show to become Pro, correct.
Yeah. There's a, there's a lot more
Pro qualifying shows for sure and they're not all pro
qualifying shows, but it's not like you have to do like
Nationals like the the NPC Nationals.
There's not like an equivalent of that in the natural
federation's that I'm aware of. Yeah, that's yeah.
Yeah, so, but they go the pro row and, like your sophomore,
the circuit, then. Yeah, you have to wait till the
end of the year. So it does make it tough.
You kind of have to. It's kind of making them chose,
like people want to do more heavy on the back end of the
year just because of that reason, you know, and then I
don't know Generations like they can few earn your pro card
status. You have to compete in a pro
show within a year to maintain your pro card status, which I
also I mean that's that's not good either because like You're
if you if you win your last show of the season to get your pro
card and you don't plan on competing again that year.
Then you've got a literally not have hardly any offseason or as
you say non non. Come on.
Yeah. Yeah.
Do it again which and that's not
really conducive to much muscle growth, you know?
Yeah, that's exactly what I would say is, you know to know
like Becomes of the genetic kind of portion of it.
Where? Yeah, you turn pro and then you
can go do well at a pro show and then go on.
From there. It's like I yeah, usually I have
a lot longer of a downtime between shows for my clients if
they even if they. Like, for example, I have a
client turn pro and OCB last. Yeah.
Actually about a year and a half ago now, and you want to do like
a pro show and like now we're going to take a break because
it's a totally different world, you know, from the amateur level
to the pro level not natural bodybuilding.
It's a Different level of competitiveness, for sure.
Hands down in my eyes. Yeah, and it's not just, you
brought in some glutes parameter, show, maybe turn pro.
That's great. But you best believe that every
single person at the pro circuit, at that next Pro show
is going to be killed. You know, they're going to be
shredded, they're going to bring glutes, are going to be full of
mean, they're just, you got to have time for the muscle
acquisition part of it, and then bring the conditioning, even
better than you did for the amateur show.
So, I would agree. It makes it tough.
If you that they want you to maintain that status going.
Right from your amateur to a pro.
Unless unless you just, you know, you have the genetics to
do. Well at that, that next level of
competitors, you know, 100% 100% Well shoot man.
I've been talking to your wife for over an hour.
Now. I know you got stuff to do
probably work out no gym right now.
Yeah, exactly. I get it in.
So no, I really I really sincerely.
Appreciate you having me on. I'm really happy.
Have to catch up. I love talking about stuff
today. And I'm just glad that you're
doing well. Dude.
You sound good things go. Well, with the company and the
new set up at the warehouse. You have to let me know.
Oh, we got it. May be struggling to.
I don't know if you knew that. Oh my God, my goodness, dude.
Yeah, that is one thing. I don't really know how that's
going to shake down with me prepping the same time.
The newborn like I don't really know.
That's probably not going to be great for reducing stress.
Yeah, probably take it in before before.
Baby pops out or whatever, but regardless that's that's
awesome. Congrats, dude.
That's super, super awesome. Yeah, I appreciate it, man.
So yeah, lots changed since we last tongue, but but always good
catching up with you, man. You're always killing it.
It's always cool to follow along and just see what you're working
on. Where people go to find out more
about you men and follow along as well.
Oh the plug moment. Yeah.
So I guess Instagram Facebook just want to type in what would
be Instagram Austin pulse and fitness is kind of my No there.
And then on Facebook, my company name is AP performance.
You'll see a little logo with a do.
It. Kind of looks like a Batman
symbol almost honestly, but for my personal assist, Facebook
coach that awesome possum, and then if you want to visit my
website to its www.a peeper form.com, it's all one word, and
I'll have a podcast on there too.
If you want to scroll back to back in, back in our younger.
Our days might have still should be linked up there with the feed
and you can see our very first podcast we ever did me and key
of Sounds here versus now. But yeah, that's where you can
you know choir do all that fun stuff.
But I love meeting new people especially in your world to I
want to learn more and read and connect with more people in that
the key to world. So shoot me a follow on
Instagram. That's kind of my main Hub right
now, but but yeah man, that's about it.
Awesome man. Well, I'm a link out to those
sites make Easy for people to find you, for sure.
And keep in touch, man. I mean, like I said, I'm always
excited to see what you got going on.
If there's ever anything I can do for you brother.
Just let me know. You get my number.
Yeah, of course, dude. No, I appreciate you having me
on. So we'll touch base.
Will do another one. Sometime sounds great man.
Take care of brother.