1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,600 Well hello ladies and gents. Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com. 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,480 And today I've got special guest Doctor Gabrielle Lyon on the 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:06,800 line. She likely needs no 4 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,640 introduction, but we dive deep into the wonderful world of 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,960 protein, amino acids, protein distribution, muscle 6 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,760 preservation, muscle building and all things anti aging. 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,360 She's got a new book that just recently came out called Forever 8 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:22,480 Strong. So we talk about that, we talk 9 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,560 about all kinds of things. I've got no doubt that you will 10 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,320 take something from this conversation. 11 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,600 So that further delay, sit back, relax, take some notes on the 12 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,240 podcast with Doctor Gabrielle Lyon 13 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:45,000 and we are live Doctor Gabrielle Lyon, How are you today? 14 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:47,160 I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. 15 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:48,960 Hey, I'm excited to be chatting with you. 16 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,440 So we've interacted at various conferences that we've spoken at 17 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,960 together. You are certainly leading the 18 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,120 charge as it pertains to eating more protein, making sure that 19 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,280 you're metabolically sound, especially in the the female 20 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,320 demographic. I feel like we've needed a 21 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,840 figure in that space for quite some time, so I'm glad to see 22 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,720 you grab and laugh by the horns and just wrinkling then. 23 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:12,440 Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. 24 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,400 You know, when we go back and we think about the health and 25 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:20,440 Wellness journey of our world, especially from Western society, 26 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,200 there really is a huge dichotomy. 27 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:28,120 The heavy weights, the eating steak is all for the guys and a 28 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,840 woman should eat salad and do some cardio, maybe some cardio 29 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:37,040 classes, grab a leotard, maybe a a bandana and get her done. 30 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:42,200 But the reality is women need to be lifting and lifting heavy 31 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,760 things and eating more protein, and nothing is going to help 32 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,640 their fertility. Nothing is going to help their 33 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,440 body composition, their brain function. 34 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:56,160 They're aging more than being physically strong. 35 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,400 I completely agree. I don't know where that 36 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,800 narrative started from because like maybe I'm biased, but when 37 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,720 I look at females out in the space, I find it much more 38 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,440 attractive if they're a sturdy is a good word. 39 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,560 I feel like if you're self-sufficient and able to be 40 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,240 just capable, like if you're able to go pick up heavyweights, 41 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,840 that is much more appealing to me than just simply walking on 42 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:19,520 the treadmill. If you're able to eat a steak 43 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,240 and not, you know, be shameful of the food you're eating as 44 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,760 opposed to a picking out of salad, like, I don't know where 45 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,400 this narrative to just eat very small amounts and only stick to 46 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,160 cardio started, but I'm glad to see that it's shifting. 47 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,080 Yeah, me too. Me too. 48 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,480 And it really it really, the time is right. 49 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,040 And I think women particularly are just simply fed up. 50 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,480 No pun intended, but fed up with the way things have gone. 51 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,360 Completely agree. I want to get a little back 52 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,600 story like you are. You've been in the space for 53 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,040 quite some time. You've been like putting out 54 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,800 content for years now. What was your catalyst for even 55 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,680 getting in the health and nutrition space to begin with? 56 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:02,200 Like, did you struggle from some type of some type of ailment in 57 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:03,680 your prior life? Like what was the initial 58 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,560 catalyst? Yeah, I am a bit unusual because 59 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:12,000 my training in nutritional sciences started when I was 17 60 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,240 and I never changed. I graduated high school early 61 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,600 and I moved in with my godmother who was one of the original 62 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:25,000 founding idea Pushers of Functional medicine, and she was 63 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,640 the group before Mark Hyman, before functional medicine had a 64 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:31,280 name, and her name is Liz Lipsky. 65 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,800 For those in the functional medicine space, she is the gut 66 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:42,160 health person who really wrote one of the original books on 67 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,080 health and gut healing, and that was called Digestive Wellness. 68 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,760 I moved in with her when I was 17 and became fascinated with 69 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,600 nutritional sciences. I really felt that that was the 70 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,240 way of the future and that's how individuals could change the 71 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,440 trajectory of health and aging. And from there I went and I 72 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,880 studied nutritional sciences, was so grateful to fall into the 73 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:09,360 mentorship and the lab of Doctor Donald Lehman, who is, or the 74 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:14,040 listener is really a pioneer. He's a world class scientist and 75 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,200 a world leading expert in protein metabolism and protein 76 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,600 nutrition. And he's mentored me over the 77 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,240 last 20 years and I never changed. 78 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:29,840 You know, I I never changed my perspective that food, nutrition 79 00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:33,560 and fitness were key. I mean, there was a moment where 80 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,440 I realized that it wasn't about fat and it really was about 81 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:40,840 skeletal muscle. And that happened in my 82 00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:43,600 fellowship. So Fast forward through medical 83 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,680 school, I did undergraduate nutritional sciences, and then I 84 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,080 did a fellowship actually in nutritional sciences and 85 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,080 geriatrics at Washington University, which is very a 86 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,120 prestigious institution. And I had this aha moment there 87 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,720 that changed everything for me. I would imagine in working 88 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,440 alongside geriatrics you like that that is just a frontline 89 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,360 view as to what happens as you age if you lack lean tissue. 90 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,240 And I'm glad to see the narrative shifting from people 91 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:16,720 just focusing on losing body fat to actually building and 92 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,080 preserving lean tissue. Because if you are doing 93 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,800 everything to optimize for that, the body fat becomes somewhat 94 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,000 secondary, like it's just going to happen by default. 95 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,400 Yeah, that that's absolutely right. 96 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,800 And arguably that's what we've seen happen for the last 50 97 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,680 years. We've been hyper focused on 98 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,000 obesity and with that focus we think about what one has to 99 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,920 lose. And if you're constantly focused 100 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,520 on losing quote weight, we all know especially, I mean 101 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,600 obviously you do this for a profession that when you go 102 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:55,200 through crash diets and when you go through really intense pushes 103 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,880 for weight loss, you invariably lose not just fat, but depending 104 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,560 on the way in which you do it, you could lose 50% muscle mass. 105 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:09,320 And that over time becomes devastating for people. 106 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,040 And that is what we have seen, especially with an aging 107 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,840 population, because habits are very difficult to change. 108 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:23,640 And when someone begins the Jenny Craig experience in their 109 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,360 30s or even in their 20s, they're likely to continue to 110 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,720 repeat this every year. People are going on some kind of 111 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:33,920 expansive or intensive weight loss experience. 112 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,120 And over the years, it really does destroy metabolism. 113 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,440 Yeah, I I've been trying to shout that from the rooftops for 114 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:46,160 years as a natural bodybuilder because I feel like the fat loss 115 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,880 phase gets all the attention and people seldom talk about the 116 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,880 importance of proper reverse dieting and coming out of those 117 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,760 deficit periods. Not that there's anything wrong 118 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,960 with the deficit if done healthfully and strategically, 119 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,320 but there's a whole other side of the coin there. 120 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,080 And that is oftentimes unspoken. And if you are chronically 121 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,480 restricting your intake, totally independent of the macro 122 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:08,920 nutrient distribution of that intake. 123 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,840 But if you are just simply not eating enough fuel, what that 124 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,240 does to you from a hormonal standpoint, from a metabolic 125 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,680 standpoint like that, does not bounce back instantaneously and 126 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,160 people are digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole. 127 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,280 Yeah. I think that you bring up a 128 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,040 really great point and especially when you think about 129 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,520 are people overconsuming or are they underconsuming and how do 130 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:38,120 we determine which person is doing what. 131 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:43,280 And really at the core of all of this from my perspective is you 132 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,200 have to begin by looking at what kind of dietary protein and how 133 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,480 much they're having. Of course you can't just, you 134 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,080 know, ingest dietary protein and build muscle. 135 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,320 You do need a very particular stimulus. 136 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,880 But from a foundational nutrition perspective, I love 137 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,600 reverse dieting. I think it is very important. 138 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,880 And then, you know, a second step to that, especially as we 139 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,000 think about aging, is dietary. Protein becomes even more 140 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,800 important. And it's actually the only macro 141 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:17,200 nutrient whose needs change because an older population and 142 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:22,120 an aging population has a decreased efficiency of protein 143 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:28,000 utilization, not just from gut extraction but from this 144 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,680 phenomenon called anabolic resistance. 145 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:32,559 And I think it's really fascinating that you're a 146 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:38,039 natural bodybuilder because I I often think about how women fare 147 00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:43,360 or would fare within that because men don't necessarily 148 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,440 have to have a decline in testosterone. 149 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,880 And it's it's so it's fascinating to me, but women 150 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,640 will all have a decline in hormonal status, but men not 151 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,120 necessarily. It's really interesting. 152 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,440 So when it comes to fluctuations in hormones, as one ages there, 153 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,560 I've had several people on the podcast that have talked about 154 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:07,960 this and there it's kind of like the Wild West right now, like 155 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,880 there's all these different hormone clinics that are popping 156 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,920 up. Some are are well warranted and 157 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,640 some are probably not. So much what What is your 158 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,960 overview general stance on exogenous hormones for an aging 159 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,600 female demographic as those natural fluctuations and 160 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,800 hormones change? Yes, I believe that hormone 161 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,920 replacement therapy is of great benefit and really the the 162 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,760 women's, the Women's Health Initiative has done hormone 163 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,200 replacement a huge disservice. I mean this, this group of 164 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:48,200 studies came out 20 some years ago and nobody critiqued it, 165 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,320 nobody really examined the data or questioned it in a way where 166 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,560 it really put a bad spin on hormone replacement therapy. 167 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,640 From my perspective, I believe hormone replacement therapy is 168 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,200 extremely safe. And I think, yes, it is the Wild 169 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,080 West right now. But in the next 10 years, I 170 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,080 think that everybody is going to be on hormone replacement 171 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:09,520 therapy. And in fact, you're probably 172 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,160 going to go to your doctor, and if you're not on it, they're 173 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,520 going to think that the doctor is way behind the times. 174 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,640 Yeah, I I definitely think that is the way things are moving and 175 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,320 obviously people need to get their own individual labs 176 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:21,320 checked. You're not going to make any 177 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,120 blanket statements for the masses, but is there a 178 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,680 demographic of females that would benefit from not 179 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:29,680 necessarily jumping on HRT as they age? 180 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:32,840 Or is it pretty much a unanimous, you know, if you're 181 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,520 wanting to become optimal from both a health and longevity 182 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,520 standpoint, that's going to be the route you take. 183 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,400 I do. I I do believe that that is 184 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,360 going to be true. Certainly it is a woman's 185 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,320 prerogative whether she chooses to go through hormone 186 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,040 replacement therapy or menopause replacement therapy. 187 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,360 I I think that we do see cardiovascular benefits, I think 188 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,640 we see bone benefits, we certainly see muscle benefits 189 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:05,800 and brain benefits is there. From my perspective, unless a 190 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,560 woman has an active cancer that potentially is estrogen 191 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:12,880 positive, then maybe that would not be ideal. 192 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:20,480 But again, you know, from a male perspective, there was a long 193 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,480 time that individuals thought that testosterone replacement 194 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,200 therapy caused prostate cancer. And in fact, they found that not 195 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,080 to be true. And there are a handful of 196 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,280 trials, especially now that are coming out that those 197 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,600 individuals with prostate cancer actually do better on 198 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:39,320 testosterone replacement therapy. 199 00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:42,880 So I think that there's still a lot we don't know in terms of 200 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,400 how positive it is. As you get more and more steeped 201 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,480 in the research, would you recommend a specific modality 202 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,320 for administering this exogenous hormone? 203 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,240 Like is the bioidentical format typically the best? 204 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,640 Is there like 1 medium that you've seen more success with 205 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,560 than others, whether it be the the pellets or the injections or 206 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:07,440 the creams? I find that injections are best 207 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,200 you can control it typically a sub Q injection more than once a 208 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:13,360 day or more. Sorry. 209 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,200 More than once a day, more than once a week seems to be the best 210 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,160 for both men and women. And then for women. 211 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:26,560 Some women do better with a cream of estradiol cream. 212 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:28,240 Some women do better with a patch. 213 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,320 It just certainly depends. And how often, always, always 214 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:38,720 oral progesterone versus a cream because of the it's metabolized. 215 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:40,480 Yeah. Yeah, and how often should 216 00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:43,520 someone go and get their labs drawn to make sure that they're 217 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,560 administering the right dosage as their body changes? 218 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:52,360 Once you're once, you're stable every six months and prior to 219 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,120 that stability. Every three months. 220 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,400 Yeah, Yep. I want to kind of switch gears 221 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,320 and talk about protein. I feel like you probably get 222 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,600 asked about protein non-stop. You're probably tired of hearing 223 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,640 the same questions, but you just have a book come out that talks 224 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,480 largely about protein. So I feel like it's relevant. 225 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,480 Yes, Forever strong first book of its kind. 226 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,120 Yeah, I'm excited to read it. When it comes to protein, 227 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,280 there's a lot of misconceptions around the type, the quality, 228 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:24,160 the quantity, all the above. A general rule of thumb for 229 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,160 protein consumption that I've seen tossed around that's been 230 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,120 in the the bodybuilding space for forever and it's probably 231 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,280 pre applicable to the general public, is if you are targeting 232 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:38,160 about 1g of protein per pound of lean mass as a minimum you're 233 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,800 pretty well safe. From a muscle degradation 234 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:42,480 standpoint. That should be a pretty good 235 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,400 baseline, Would you agree? Well, the I think I would need 236 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,240 some clarification because what how would we define lean mass If 237 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,760 we don't it's challenging because we don't directly 238 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,280 measure it. A DEXA is somewhat of an 239 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,400 extrapolation. So how I mean I would say ideal 240 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,320 body weight. I I don't go off of lean mass 241 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,720 because I don't think that we the data would suggest that we 242 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,040 don't have a direct way in which in which we're measuring it 243 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,720 accurately and most people don't know their lean mass. 244 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,080 So that would be my clarifying question. 245 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,800 So when you're looking at protein recommendations and you, 246 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,000 you typically do 1g per pound of ideal weight. 247 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,680 Yes, because most individuals don't know their lean body mass 248 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,640 or their skeletal muscle mass. They just, they don't. 249 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,240 And we have found that over the years, over the last two decades 250 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,200 to be really effective for ideal body weight. 251 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,360 And then of course an individual will say, well, I don't know 252 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,120 what my ideal body weight is. And I would say that the last 253 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,440 time they felt amazing. And again, it's it's all about 254 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,400 what is the goal that one would want to target. 255 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,080 And then you mentioned that as one ages that protein 256 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,760 requirement shifts as well. What does that look like? 257 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,760 Do you change that recommendation as that person 258 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,600 ages or how do you kind of navigate? 259 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,840 Those well, we could first think about what is the current 260 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,400 protein recommendation. And the current recommendation 261 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:18,760 is .8g per kilogram of body weight or 0.37g per pound of 262 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,120 body weight. That is the minimum requirement 263 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,240 to prevent deficiencies. These numbers this is the RDA. 264 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:31,200 These numbers have not changed easily since the 80s and is 265 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,360 based also on high quality proteins. 266 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:40,920 For example, the .8g or .37g per pound is not based on plant 267 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,040 based proteins, so that's something to understand. 268 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,560 And these were nitrogen balance studies. 269 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:52,920 Nitrogen balance studies are, or was a way of collecting 270 00:15:52,920 --> 00:16:00,760 information and studying animals that allowed them to grow with 271 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,400 the lowest amount of protein and still get growth and the 272 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,160 cheapest way to do it. So it was the highest amount of 273 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,160 carbohydrates, lowest amount of protein to to still support 274 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,480 growth. That was originally where it 275 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,560 came from. And then 18 year old they were 276 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:23,360 largely soldiers. 18 year old men were evaluated and those 277 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:28,160 individuals were found to have .8g per kilogram of a need to 278 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,760 prevent deficiencies. And this leads us to two 279 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,080 questions. Number one, what kind of health 280 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,080 outcome is a nitrogen balance and we don't look at nitrogen 281 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:43,320 balance as a health outcome. And then #2, how is a young 18 282 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:48,240 year old active male really going to represent women in 283 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:54,040 menopause, older women, older gentlemen, men in their 40s, 284 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,000 etcetera. So the the baseline 285 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,880 recommendations have been determined to be quite low, 286 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,640 especially to support healthy aging. 287 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,720 And if you look at some of the position statements like the 288 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:14,200 proteage paper, then you'll see that 1.2 to 1.6g of protein per 289 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:19,160 kilogram, Those individuals do much better from a muscle mass 290 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,319 perspective, from a body composition perspective, from a 291 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:27,040 blood glucose regulation, triglycerides, insulin and fat 292 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,480 loss. So we have to think what is a 293 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,040 optimal protein diet and an optimal protein diet is double 294 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,840 the RDA. And when you implement that, we 295 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,360 do see you know the the evidence supports that those people 296 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:49,040 always do better the difference between .8g to 1.2 to 1.6 people 297 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,480 always fare better. I think I I'm in total agreement 298 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,280 with you. I I'm pretty heavy-handed on the 299 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,640 protein. I also consume quite a bit of 300 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,400 dietary fat and overall calories with my training load. 301 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,440 But I feel like so many people, women especially, have for 302 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,600 whatever reason a very hard time getting adequate protein in. 303 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,240 I don't know if it's because they are just simply not 304 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,280 consuming enough overall calories at their metabolic rate 305 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,960 and hunger signaling is down regulated, but so many people 306 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,760 struggle with just simply getting 80 grams of protein in a 307 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,160 day. Do you have any recommendations 308 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,320 for that demographic? Yeah, I mean you're absolutely 309 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,240 right. So the the data would support 310 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:32,320 that. The protein intake is around 68G 311 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,000 for women, maybe around 100 grams for men. 312 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:40,120 Shakes are wonderful. You know, it is challenging for 313 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:42,920 women, it seems like specifically to get in more 314 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,840 protein. This is where structure comes in 315 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:51,480 and sparking your metabolism. Not having chaotic eating and 316 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,240 throwing in an extra protein shake could be very valuable. 317 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,520 Preferably A whey based protein shake. 318 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,800 Yes, for sure. But I also think that they now 319 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,800 have animal based you know, Mark Bell made a great steak and 320 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,440 shake. I think that there's other ways 321 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,480 for individuals who can't tolerate whey. 322 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,280 Yeah, the steak shake's great. We put that in one of our keto 323 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,160 brick flavors. It's. 324 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,720 Probably amazing. What do you guys usually 325 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,160 recommend? So I've got several different 326 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,960 flavors we've got, we've got a brick that uses his steak shake 327 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,160 for the organ blend. We have some that use whey 328 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,440 protein concentrate, that's grass finished whey. 329 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,640 And we do have some that have a plant protein. 330 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,720 But on the plant protein ones we use one that has both pre P 331 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,120 protein and rice protein concentrate. 332 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,240 So you get the full amino acid spectrum. 333 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:39,680 Yep, and that's certainly a way to do it. 334 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,280 Now, I'd love to kind of pick your brain when it comes to 335 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,120 protein distribution, because there's a lot of people in the 336 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:48,560 low carb keto space that are doing like an OMAD approach. 337 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,760 And there's pros and cons to that depending on what the goals 338 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,960 are, what, what is sustainable, what your daily routine looks 339 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,160 like from a muscle protein synthesis standpoint. 340 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,960 If the goal is to build and preserve muscle, there's 341 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,560 certainly a benefit to having more than one meal that contains 342 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,040 adequate protein throughout the day. 343 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,880 When people come to me and they ask if I'm consuming ample 344 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,840 protein throughout the day, but it's coming in one sitting, am I 345 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,480 doing myself a disservice there? What would you say in that 346 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,800 regard? Absolutely. 347 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,440 And really this came out of, if you look at some of the earlier 348 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:29,520 studies by Arnell in the 90s and again this was in elderly women. 349 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:34,320 But they looked at what's called protein pulse feeding where they 350 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,080 looked at a distribution. For example, they fed women 351 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:43,040 close to the RDA which was low 64 grams of protein in either a 352 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:48,240 spread pattern which was small meals of 20 grams or less or at 353 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,880 least one meal with 50 grams of protein. 354 00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:55,120 And then they showed that the pulse pattern which more than 355 00:20:55,120 --> 00:21:01,800 one meal of 50 grams, so it had 50 grams and then an additional 356 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:06,480 meal those individuals had a greater 24 hour protein balance 357 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,320 and they were able to maintain greater fat free mass. 358 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,200 And this was really one of the first studies that highlighted 359 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:18,640 that adjusting dosing per meal while was important even while 360 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,440 macro nutrients were the same, you know and that's one. 361 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,760 And then from from there, it, sorry about that. 362 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:31,480 From there, it talked about how when you stimulate muscle 363 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,440 protein synthesis at least more than once a day, you certainly 364 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:41,880 have a better muscle response, particularly in aging. 365 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,000 And there's multiple ways to stimulate muscle protein 366 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,520 synthesis, like weight training for instance, also stimulates 367 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:48,800 muscle proteins. Absolutely. 368 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,960 So if somebody was to go the route of an OMAD approach, if 369 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,280 they're consuming ample protein in that one meal largely are 370 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,040 ideally, you know, greater than the recommended daily allowance. 371 00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:05,440 And they're also training in a window of time that is a little 372 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,800 bit separate from that. They're still getting those two 373 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:13,640 muscle protein synthesis spikes. Yeah, yeah, I I do think, yes, 374 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,640 training absolutely stimulates muscle protein synthesis. 375 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:22,360 I I definitely think that the literature would support more 376 00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:28,120 than one meal a day because from a muscle perspective, you Max 377 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:31,960 out the muscle protein synthesis, the amino acid 378 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:37,200 integration at around 55g. And when we think about muscle 379 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,880 protein synthesis from a amino acid perspective, it's the 380 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,880 incorporation, It's a biomarker of muscular health. 381 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:51,680 It's what we believe over time to be a mechanism that helps 382 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:56,000 with lean mass retention, muscle protein synthesis in terms of 383 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,760 hypertrophy over time. Again, it's not a direct 384 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,160 measure, but when you incorporate these amino acids 385 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:08,360 one time a day, you have a lower 24 hour muscle protein synthetic 386 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:12,480 response. So in an ideal world, if you and 387 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,120 I actually wrote about this in my book, I did 3 tracks. 388 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:20,640 I did one track for hypertrophy, which was 4 meals, 4 meals a day 389 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,280 of hitting at least 50 grams of protein. 390 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,080 Arguably, if you're a a woman, you might not need that much. 391 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,480 There's ways to adjust that. But if you're really thinking 392 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,280 about longevity, then two meals a day of at least 50 grams of 393 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,440 protein will certainly protect muscle mass in a more robust 394 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,400 way. Yeah, it's interesting. 395 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,960 Like when I'm in a building phase, I'm consuming north of 396 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,920 3500 calories. So for me in that state, I don't 397 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,560 find it pleasant to consume all of that in one sitting. 398 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,600 So I'll typically break that into two or three meals by 399 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,920 default. When I'm in a cutting phase, I 400 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,480 find it more psychologically sustainable to have one large 401 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,840 meal that I actually say to me, as opposed to multiple smaller 402 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:08,600 meals that always leave me wanting more. 403 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,240 So I'll do the OMET approach in the deficit, which again is not 404 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,560 trying to prioritize muscle growth more so me just trying to 405 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,280 make being in a deficit as sustainable as possible. 406 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,840 But in that context, if I separate the training from the 407 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,880 meal and then maybe supplement with some leucine or amino acids 408 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,160 intermittently in between, that would likely be the best way to 409 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,240 mitigate any adverse response there. 410 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,000 I don't know if separate I, you know, I think it's an 411 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,920 interesting in perspective. I I certainly would never 412 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,160 recommend supplementing with leucine alone because when you 413 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,600 supplement with leucine alone you create somewhat of an 414 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,320 imbalance of isoleucine and valine. 415 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,120 So there's leucine, isoleucine and valine, and leucine alone 416 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,200 would not be something I would supplement. 417 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,200 But where there could be some benefit is an essential amino 418 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,800 acid mix where you have all of the amino acids and then your 419 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,320 body will make the remainder. That could certainly help offset 420 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,360 any kind of degradation or potentially allowing you to 421 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:20,680 mitigate those aspects. Totally out of curiosity, what 422 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,200 is a typical day of eating and training frequency look like for 423 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,240 you? Like how do you structure your 424 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,280 routine to optimize muscle protein synthesis and just go 425 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,800 throughout your day-to-day? Yeah, I train first thing in the 426 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,000 morning. I train first thing in the 427 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,040 morning and then I'll have some kind of protein. 428 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,640 I do train fast it I haven't today because I've been kind of 429 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,960 rushing around with you know I've had two very little kids so 430 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:50,400 been rushing around this morning but I will eat, you know I might 431 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,640 eat two to three times a day and I will obviously always 432 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,800 prioritize protein. The and it might be actually low 433 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,640 fat Greek yogurt with some berries post training. 434 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,320 It could be and it doesn't have to be post training Again, the 435 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,440 more active you are, the less it matters when you're getting that 436 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,400 protein in. I will also have some lean 437 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,560 steak. I love Piedmontese, We eat them 438 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,160 all the time and I'll have some greens. 439 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,520 I love Shishado Peppers but I have around 100 to 110 grams of 440 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,160 protein a day. I'm a very small person. 441 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,360 For me that's around 1g per pound, ideal body weight, and 442 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:33,560 then actually I'm more carbohydrate heavy. 443 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,400 I just seem to be a really fast burner. 444 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,600 So I'll have that equal amount of carbohydrates but not quite 445 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,080 as much fat. I seem to just not do very well 446 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,800 on FAT. Any idea what your total caloric 447 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,720 can take? Averages out on a daily basis. 448 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,840 Probably around 15 to 2000 calories, 15102 thousand 449 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,160 calories. And you feel pretty satiated and 450 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,160 fuelled with that. Oh yeah. 451 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,240 Oh yeah. I I have to actually force 452 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,680 myself to eat. I probably do better and perform 453 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,840 much better if I can get food down. 454 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:11,520 Have you been? Are you? 455 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,240 Like, you know, so it's interesting. 456 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,400 I some people live to eat and some people eat because they 457 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,200 just have to. I am one of those people that I 458 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,640 do not care about food at all. I'm so uninterested in terms of 459 00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:25,160 it doesn't really have to taste good. 460 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,400 I mean, listen, in my book I made everything taste good and 461 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,280 it really is well designed and well done. 462 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,320 But for me, I'm not a I'm not a foodie, I'd say that. 463 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,160 Yeah, I am, definitely. Whether or not I'm a foodie is 464 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,000 totally dependent on whether or not I'm in a cut or building 465 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,320 phase. If I'm at a surplus, then I 466 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,760 could think less about food. Like, it just is what it is, you 467 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,440 know, part of the day when I'm in a deficit, it's like, OK, I'm 468 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,560 definitely thinking about that next meal because I'm getting 469 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,960 hungry for sure. When it comes to weight 470 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,760 training, especially in the aging female demographic, I've 471 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,360 got to give shout out to my mom. I've been trying to get her to 472 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:04,480 adopt A keto low carb diet for forever now and she's finally 473 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,320 doing that and she's killing it with it. 474 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,160 And she's eating ample protein. She's up to 2000 calories a day. 475 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,800 She weighs about 100 and 10115 lbs, So getting ample nutrition 476 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,840 in there and she's recently started weight training, which 477 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,920 I'm also super proud of her for. But I feel like a lot of women 478 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,960 that are in the aging demographic have this resistance 479 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,160 to weight train if they weren't brought up doing that. 480 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,640 So how do you kind of structure the conversation around teaching 481 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,480 them the benefits of, hey, look, you're not going to look like 482 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,040 Arnold Schwarzenegger in two weeks. 483 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,440 How is this going to benefit you from a longevity standpoint? 484 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:40,960 Like what does that conversation look like? 485 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,080 I mean, one thing that we have to think is how do they want to 486 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,360 age? People can appreciate, like you 487 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,920 said, you can sit in the you get to sit in the front row of 488 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,160 aging. You get to see how your parents 489 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,840 age and that is typically striking enough to make people 490 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:04,080 pivot. And understanding that it's it's 491 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:09,400 really critical to re evaluate how you go forward and you have 492 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,760 to understand that muscle is like your body armor and you 493 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:18,520 have to put in the effort now before it becomes a liability 494 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,520 later. You pull, you put in the effort. 495 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,440 You know skeletal muscle is metabolic currency, It's your 496 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,560 health currency. It cannot be bought, it cannot 497 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,200 be sold, it cannot be bargained for. 498 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,760 It has to be earned. You have to build strong muscle 499 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,840 because it's not that you want to train to get better at 500 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,200 exercising, you want to train because you want to become more 501 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,520 functional. You want to be able to go on a 502 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,120 flight and put your suitcase up. You want to be able to get out 503 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,360 of your car, get off the toilet, get off the ground, pair your 504 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,760 groceries. If you fail to train for 505 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,120 everyday life, you will lose the capacity to do these things. 506 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,480 Totally agree. A lot of people that are older 507 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,320 feel that it is nearly impossible to build more lean 508 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,720 tissue at that stage because they just simply haven't been 509 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,720 doing it. As their hormones change, as 510 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,320 they age, as their ability to synthesize muscle protein 511 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,320 shifts, what what does the research show in their ability 512 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,160 to build more lean tissue if they are consuming ample 513 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,040 nutrition, ample protein, and providing ample stimuli through 514 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,080 that training load? That women, that men and women 515 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,600 easily at 75 years old, there's data to support that they will 516 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,600 build muscle so it's never too late. 517 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,920 It is never too it is never too late, which is is incredible 518 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:45,440 that 7585 years old that they can improve strength and 519 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,280 hypertrophy regardless of the age. 520 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,000 Yeah, I was hoping you'd say that. 521 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,360 I totally agree. Talk to me about your book. 522 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,640 What was the what was the motivation for writing this 523 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,360 book? How is this different than any 524 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,600 other books out there? Just kind of give me some back 525 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,800 story on the book. Yeah, I'd love to. 526 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,880 People believe that we have an obesity epidemic. 527 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,760 I don't think that we do. We do not have an obesity 528 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,040 epidemic. What we have is a muscle crisis. 529 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:14,120 We have a midlife muscle crisis. And when you think about all 530 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,640 these diseases of aging, we think about that they're caused 531 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,000 by obesity. But the cause, one of the 532 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,960 primary causes of obesity and all of these metabolic diseases 533 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,760 is unhealthy skeletal muscle. And that's really the framework. 534 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,360 And that's the beginning. And this book shatters every 535 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,360 paradigm about thinking about obesity. 536 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,600 It talks all about skeletal muscle health from a medical 537 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,000 metabolic perspective that is easy for everybody to read, and 538 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,000 it will shift the entire paradigm of thinking we don't 539 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,920 have an obesity epidemic. The the issue is the skeletal 540 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,960 muscle that we have ends up over time when it is sedentary and 541 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,000 fueled incorrectly, will end up looking like a marbled stake 542 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,160 rather than a filet. This happens decades before 543 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,040 someone becomes obese, decades before any of these issues 544 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,240 happen. And this book. 545 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,040 We know. When I wrote this book, there 546 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,680 really was. There was two reasons why I 547 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,560 wrote this book. When I was in my fellowship 548 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,920 doing geriatrics and nutritional sciences at Washoe, I fell in 549 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,480 love with one of these participants, and she was a mom 550 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,040 in her mid 50s. She'd had three kids. 551 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,440 She'd cycled with the same 20 to 30 lbs her entire life. 552 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,280 She did exactly what the medical community had told her to which 553 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:42,120 was eat less and exercise more. And what ended up happening is I 554 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,480 was looking at the interface between brain function and body 555 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,600 composition. And so I imaged her brain. 556 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,280 This is part of the research I was doing, and her brain in her 557 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,240 50s looked like an Alzheimer's brain, looked like the beginning 558 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,720 of an Alzheimer's brain. And it was so devastating, and I 559 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:04,080 felt so deeply responsible that I failed her, the medical 560 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,480 community had failed her, that the messaging had failed her, 561 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,360 that I started obsessively thinking about it. 562 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,760 And I started to think about the patients I was seeing in the 563 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,000 nursing home, the patients I was seeing in the dementia ward, the 564 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:17,680 patients I was seeing in the hospital. 565 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,840 And I realized that the one thing they had in common was not 566 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,720 that they were over fat, it was that they were under muscle. 567 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,920 And it wasn't that they had an obesity problem, it was that 568 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,000 they had a muscle problem. And that is why I wrote the 569 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,000 book, to protect the next generation, to protect this 570 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,360 generation. And I wrote the book or my 571 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,960 mentor Doctor Donald Layman of 20 years who you know again as 572 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,360 one of the world leading protein and muscle experts, has taken me 573 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,960 under his wing and taught me. And so the book is dedicated to 574 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:56,000 him and I wanted to take all the bench side research, put it in 575 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,920 an evidence based, easy to read layman book. 576 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,440 I love it. I'm certainly excited to read it 577 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,600 for people that want to kind of have a proxy like some people 578 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,199 need like an eye opening moment that brings clarity to their 579 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:13,320 life and the fact that hey, look, this is not the ideal 580 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,159 lifestyle. This is not people even realize 581 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:19,159 how sick they are because it's just become a chronic situation. 582 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:20,920 They just accept that as the norm. 583 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:24,880 What is a good proxy for people that are listening to just be 584 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,960 objective in whether or not they need to take more of a priority 585 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,760 to building and preserving lean tissue? 586 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,840 Like, is it an MRI scan? Is it just simply being 587 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,719 objective on how you feel and function throughout the day? 588 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,800 Like, what do you recommend for people that are not so much in 589 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,880 the health and nutrition space, but just the everyday person to 590 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,480 just have a an awakening moment of like, hey, this is the 591 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,880 reality of the situation. This is what your body is 592 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,480 telling you. This is what needs to be done 593 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,840 about it. Yeah, there's really two ways I 594 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,800 look at that physical strength. Are you physically strong? 595 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,200 How many push ups can you do? How many sit ups can you do? 596 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,720 How many or not sit ups? You know, it can be push ups. 597 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:06,280 It can be squats. How long can you hang on a bar 598 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,600 for? What is your deadlift or how 599 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,400 much are you moving if you're not someone who is in the the 600 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,800 gym lifting free weights? How much are you moving on the 601 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,440 machine? How strong are you? 602 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,280 You know how strong you are. Are you happy with that 603 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,160 strength? What is your strength going to 604 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,360 look like in five years if you continue the habits that you're 605 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,120 doing and then Fast forward to What does your blood work like 606 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,040 look like? What is your insulin? 607 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,800 What is your glucose? Show me those markers. 608 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,840 What is your triglycerides? What is your APOB? 609 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:44,480 Show me your fasting sugar. Show me your hemoglobin A1C. 610 00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:46,680 All of these are markers of skeletal muscle health. 611 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,960 Then yes, right now we have access to a DEXA. 612 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,040 Eventually we'll have something available called a deuterated 613 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,120 creatine AD 3 creatine study. We don't have that yet. 614 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:03,360 AMRI is not financially feasible for many people. 615 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,040 So the DEXA is the best that we're going to have. 616 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,880 So go ahead and use that. You can use an in body scale and 617 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,280 you track it, use the same thing, same hydration, same 618 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,640 time. And that's how I would look at 619 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,320 it. I would look at the strength, I 620 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,120 would look at the markers and then I would look at the 621 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,400 objective physical body composition aspects. 622 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:24,760 Totally. What is your recommended minimal 623 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,480 viable dose or most bang for your buck approach to training 624 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,240 in that demographic that is just simply trying to get healthy? 625 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:35,680 Is it like a basic simple compound movements, variable 626 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,400 resistance training using something like the the X3 bar 627 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:39,880 and bands? I know you recently had him on 628 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,480 the podcast like how? How would you structure that for 629 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,080 some of us getting into this? Well, one it that is, it really 630 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,800 just depends on where the person is. 631 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,320 I think that we have to think about how do we train to get 632 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,520 better at life. And again, it it fully depends. 633 00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,320 In an ideal world if someone had been training, I would really 634 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,040 like to add in some kind of high intensity interval training. 635 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,120 That doesn't mean doing sprints. It could be an Airdyne bike. 636 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,480 It could be something very safe, something that really challenges 637 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,960 that cardiovascular system, that really challenges that full body 638 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:18,240 capacity, that anaerobic system. So I do think that there is a 639 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:23,360 huge benefit to that type stuff. There's huge benefit. 640 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,720 And then also having some kind of heavyweight, whether it is 641 00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:34,480 kettle bells, whether it is again a squat, again, it really 642 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,080 depends on the person. But three days? 643 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,640 A week of heavy resistance training? 644 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,240 Again, if someone is older, they can do lighter weights and more 645 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:47,880 reps having one kind of high intensity interval session 646 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:55,560 again, it could be 10 minutes. And you know the the next thing 647 00:37:55,560 --> 00:38:00,080 that I would think about is kettle bells, carries those 648 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,920 kinds of things. Yeah, functional type movements. 649 00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:05,480 Yeah. Yeah, I was, I was diving into 650 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,800 some research and it looks like, you know, you've got the 651 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,640 hypertrophy, you've got the strength component, you've got 652 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,760 the cardiovascular conditioning. But of all of those, explosivity 653 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,200 is one of the first things that we lose as we aid to doing 654 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,240 movements that really focus on the explosive nature and the 655 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:21,160 range of motion. So like something as simple as, 656 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,040 you know box jumps, which may not be feasible for people right 657 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,320 now, but something they could work towards. 658 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,240 But just simply working on the explosive factor is one of the 659 00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:31,240 things that you really want to privatize as you age 'cause 660 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:33,920 that's the 1st to go. Yes. 661 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,880 And also, I love that you said that. 662 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:42,200 What about being able to have some kind of plyometric landing 663 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,440 in terms of if they fall? Yeah, totally. 664 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,480 Push up very much agree A. 100% I want to kind of shift the 665 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,360 conversation and talk a little bit about mindset and 666 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,880 psychology. Like for you personally, do you 667 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,840 feel that you are doing your calling in life? 668 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,600 Like is this fulfilling your purpose? 669 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,080 It seems as though that's the case, but I'm. 670 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,520 Curious as to like. How you know that to be the case 671 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:09,880 and how you? Know. 672 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,480 Oh my gosh, are you kidding? I was uniquely positioned and 673 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:20,080 groomed for this. What are the chances that I 674 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,280 graduate high school early and my godmother is one of the 675 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,400 founders of functional medicine? What are the chances of that? 676 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:34,360 Then I decide I'm going to study nutritional sciences and I land 677 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,400 in the lab of one of the world leading experts who made the 678 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:45,200 discovery that we all stand on today about protein distribution 679 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,360 and recommendations. What are the chances of that? 680 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,000 I mean, that's extraordinarily unusual. 681 00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:58,520 That then trained and mentored me, who continues to mentor me 682 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:03,000 over 20 years later. And not only that, it is an 683 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,440 obsession for me. It is not it. 684 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,880 I I love reading about it. I'm going to tell you something 685 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,720 that I don't think I've ever seen on a podcast. 686 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,480 I love reading about amino acids. 687 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:16,920 That's pretty nerdy. I. 688 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:25,200 I love reading about the way in which amino acids work, the way 689 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:30,240 in which protein works. It is, I mean, so fascinating 690 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:36,680 and the desire to share that it feels like it's a 691 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,400 responsibility. So do I believe that I am living 692 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,960 my purpose? There is no one else that is 693 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:50,640 uniquely positioned that has had the mentorship that I've had or 694 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,320 the education right. The education is incredibly 695 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:59,840 unique that I have been given. And the other last piece is it's 696 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,240 not about me, it truly is about the message. 697 00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:08,200 It is not about the messenger because I I think that that 698 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:13,040 always keeps me humble and my husband who is a former Navy 699 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:19,360 SEAL is a very service oriented servant leader and I it is the 700 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:24,640 way that we operate as a unit and our belief of what we put 701 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,760 out into the world. I think that last component is 702 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,960 key because I I resonate with everything you just said. 703 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,560 I feel like I am most certainly doing my calling in life and I'm 704 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,600 uniquely positioned to do so. And for people like you and I 705 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,160 that have that degree of certainty and confidence that we 706 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,600 are waking up with purpose and intentionality, it makes going 707 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,840 through the day-to-day struggles somewhat effortless because you 708 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,560 know what the bigger purpose is. But knowing that you're doing it 709 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:53,520 for others and that you are just a messenger is key. 710 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,760 Adding more value than you take is paramount. 711 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,240 I feel like if you were to do all this selfishly or if I was 712 00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,240 to do all this selfishly, they would not be the foundational 713 00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:04,440 base that needs to exist in order to sustain the day-to-day. 714 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,240 But for people that have not yet found that calling, they don't 715 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,200 know their purpose. I think simply from a health 716 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,920 standpoint, recognizing that they can be a better service to 717 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,960 others, enrich the quality of life of those around them, have 718 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,840 more quality time with their friends, with their children, 719 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,680 with their grandchildren, as their age. 720 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,840 Like if you have that as the motivating factor as to why you 721 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,760 should prioritize your health, ample protein consumption, 722 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,440 resistance training. It makes the struggle of getting 723 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,720 up and going to the gym or putting the right food on your 724 00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:41,000 plate so much more easy. Yeah, you know, and certainly 725 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,800 also having community. Yeah. 726 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,440 And having people that hold you to a higher standard, you know, 727 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,200 in our house, and what we talk about a lot is that you don't 728 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,960 set goals. You set standards for the way in 729 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,640 which you execute your life. You set standards for what you 730 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,960 believe, what you will tolerate, what you believe are the right 731 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,400 things to do. And when you set standards for a 732 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,720 way of operating, then you rely on your standards over your 733 00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:07,520 feelings. You rely on your standards over 734 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,560 your discipline. You rely on your standards over 735 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,520 your flexibility and that allows you to move forward. 736 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,080 I agree. I feel like we live in a society 737 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,080 that values moderation and flexibility and balance, and 738 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,520 I've always said that balance is bullshit. 739 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,920 Like I I like having non negotiables in life that you 740 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,480 don't ever deviate from. And if you structure those in a 741 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,680 way that propel the overall trajectory forward, you're not 742 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,800 likely going to deviate. And while you may not make 743 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,400 substantial progress on the day-to-day, you are still making 744 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,240 progress. And that, compounded over time, 745 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:44,240 is what leads to a truly successful in fulfilling life. 746 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,320 Wonderful. I totally agree with that. 747 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,920 Out of curiosity, you said you have two kids. 748 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,720 How old are they? Three and almost so Three, 749 00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:59,000 almost 3 and 4 1/2. OK, so this is a somewhat 750 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,520 selfish question because I have a year and a half year old as 751 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,520 well. Or now and anytime I bring some 752 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,400 on the podcast that has children and they know the importance of 753 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,360 eating quality food and that's the kind of food they bring to 754 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,880 their home. How do you navigate the waters 755 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,000 of what they're eating outside the home when you don't have 756 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,960 control of the groceries? Like how do you kind of 757 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,360 structure that? Yeah, it's really challenging. 758 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,680 I try to minimize any kind of drama, you know, it's it's just 759 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,640 very challenging. We teach them what is healthy. 760 00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:36,000 We teach them what is unhealthy, but we want to make it so if 761 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,640 they go to a birthday party, they're not the weird kid that 762 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,120 can't have something. So again we say, oh wow, do you 763 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,000 think that that's a healthy choice or this? 764 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,040 But we we certainly don't restrict and we also don't have 765 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,280 junk in the house. Yeah, I think that's key. 766 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,720 Like finding a you know, what you provide for their 767 00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:57,000 environment within the home is totally up to you. 768 00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,320 But then as they go out into the world, you can't rule them with 769 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:00,760 an iron fist. The rest of life they're just 770 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,840 going to rebel and no one wins. Right, totally agree. 771 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:07,480 Well, I know you're short on time. 772 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,960 You got a busy schedule, but I am super grateful for your time 773 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,440 for this podcast and I'm incredibly excited about your 774 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,320 book. I do love the Paradigm Shifters. 775 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,080 I do love those that go against the grain. 776 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,640 It's it's live now, right? People can. 777 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,240 Yeah, so they can get it on Amazon. 778 00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:24,600 It's called Forever Strong. It was an instant New York Time 779 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,240 bestseller. It outsold Atomic Habits, and it 780 00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:31,640 outsold Arnold Schwarzenegger's book in his first week. 781 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,000 Very cool, very cool. And where do people go to find 782 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,800 out more about you independent of the book? 783 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,960 They can go to my Instagram or my website Doctor Gabrielle 784 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,320 Lyon. I have a great podcast as well. 785 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,480 We have a YouTube with a great newsletter that gives tons of 786 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,280 free information they can and also when does this come out 787 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,200 actually? Just a few weeks. 788 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,000 I'm not super ahead on my podcast. 789 00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,040 Oh wonderful. I have a summit in Austin, 790 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,520 January 13th and 14th, and it's a forever strong summit. 791 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,640 Love to have you there and it's going to be incredible. 792 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,200 Awesome. I will certainly see if I can 793 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:10,600 make it. Are you going to the Metabolic 794 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,040 Health summit? I will not be able to go this 795 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:14,080 time. All right. 796 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,440 Well, hopefully I'll see you in Austin then. 797 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,360 Yes, we'd love to have you so you can message me separately 798 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,040 and I I would love to get you a ticket to that. 799 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,040 Sounds great. Well, Doctor Gabriel Line, I 800 00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:26,680 certainly appreciate the time. I appreciate all you're doing 801 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,800 for the space and for the health of just everybody out there. 802 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,920 So keep fighting the fight, keep doing what you're doing. 803 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,320 And if there's everything I can do to help, by all means, just 804 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,160 let me know. Thank you so much. 805 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:37,440 Thank you my friend. Take care. 806 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:38,880 Have a good one. OK. 807 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:39,360 Bye.