What's going on? Ladies and gents?
Robert Sykes, keto, Savage not comment today.
I have special, repeat guests Sim land.
How are you, man? I'm doing a pretty amazing.
How are you? I'm doing wonderful as well.
So, I kind of I, we were, last time I had you on, we talked
about those about a whole gamut of different things.
We talked about, like, a lot of the biohacking, but I kind of, I
mean, you're the type of person that's just always diving deep
and experimenting. And seeing, you know what, what
the society saying about one thing, and they kind of testing
against it. So, I'd love for you to just
kind of take the reins and run loose, With a man like what are
some things that you're experimenting on yourself?
Now what were some things are excited about, what are some
things that you want to refute? I think at the moment my biggest
Focus has been a lot to do with intermittent fasting and
combining it with resistance training as well.
Just to because the one of the reasons is that although there
are like a lot of these different while acts and
supplements and all those gimmicks you can do to promote
longevity or some health. I sell.
I think think that the Fundamentals are where you get
most of the benefits and the where you were like most of the
effects, Li and like fasting, as well as doing resistance
training to build muscle. I feel like those things are
really one of those, easiest things.
Everyone can do and those things will actually have like the
biggest effects or a general well-being and Longevity.
So you know the benefits are also like I do.
Will you get 20 benefits from both of them?
Because fasting itself is like a really It is like a stressor to
the body, and it is like a catabolic stressor, which like
promotes certain aspects of tissue degradation with that be
like burning your fat or burning, some of the other
unwanted proteins and unwanted muscle tissue in your body.
While at the same time, still having, like, some longevity
boosting benefits because of the, because of the pathway,
called a tough OG and promoting some stem cells, and all those
good things for increasing rice. And he'll spend and that's why I
like fasting itself. He's like, it's it may come off
like some something that is unwanted or it has like negative
connotations, but it still is very beneficial for the body and
it's actually like, you want to be, you know, you want to be
certain to a certain extent. You want to be like slightly
catabolic every once in a while, just your body could clean house
and, and really heal itself from the inside out.
And at the same time, you know, you don't You want to take it
too far because you know the body's still functions best when
it's out of balance and that's where like the aspect of
resistance training comes into play as well you want to build
muscle and you want to maintain it and you don't want to lose it
as you get older especially because it's like more difficult
for you to build muscle as you age and it's comes with a like a
host of other issues. A lot of the age-related
diseases are related to loss of muscle and losing losing some of
the insulin sensitivity. And they're becoming more
intolerant to metabolizing carbohydrates and and generally
like losing this sort of, you know, your bone density and
everything related. So, I feel I feel like using
both fasting and resistance training out, like, you optimize
both ends of the spectrum. So they say, you optimize the
catabolic side, and you optimize the positive or the growing and
anabolic side as well. You know, it's interesting
because, like, you know, for me coming from like a bodybuilding
background. And I don't do this this way
now, but, you know, prior to finding Quito and kind of
delving into that, you know, it was, it was very negative to go
more than two hours without a meal.
Because if you didn't have protein, you know, every two
hours and your muscles were just, you know, breaking down
and disappear in which we all we all know is obviously not the
case now. But it's interesting because
even even knowing what I know like, the term, you know,
catabolism and being in a state of being Pollock is always
viewed as a negative and it's interesting to kind of bridge
the gap and say, yeah. You know, you might you might
forego some muscle building, you might sacrifice some of that for
a, you know, finite strategic period of time.
But then if in doing that you clean house as you say and you
know, give yourself a better Foundation to clean slate that
makes building muscle and being more anabolic more efficient
going forward. It's a worthwhile trade-off and
and most people don't View, you know, dieting and building
muscle and longevity in such a shade of grey.
It's typically viewed as like a black and white.
But, you know, when you look at it in that shade of gray,
that's, that's that's where a lot of the benefits can come
from, I think. Yeah, it's like, there are,
there is, I feel like there is this idea that you can't
optimize longevity and performance at the same time?
So say I would say that in their extremes, they probably won't
coincide with each other, like, an Olympic Athlete.
Probably doesn't you know, optimize That's not their goal.
But for most people, they can still live a healthy life.
Have adequate amounts of muscle, like be strong at the gym and
like this still get all of the other Blonde Joey to booting
benefits from it. So they don't have to enclose
themselves to a cave if they want to live longer or they
don't, they don't have to sacrifice their kind of other
longevity aspects by, you know, trying to build muscle.
And and such you can of course, you can achieve both to a
certain extent, you do stuff to know why How to optimize it and
again like I feel, you know, using resistance training and
being clever with your nutrition is is really one of those key
parts and you in a sense of knowing what kind of a lever, am
I pulling with my metabolism? And my nutrition at that
particular moment? And what kind of a direction, my
body is going to hit, that's where the kind of most, that's
what I feel. The most Focus has to be on
because like I said, in the past, you were kind of afraid of
going catabolic because you thought it was like that for
you. And I feel like in the
mainstream Fitness industry, it's really especially evident
that the kind of advice that that is given to people to eat a
very frequently and have like a bunch of protein and very low
fat and carbs. Then I would say that that a
device is actually doing a lot of harm to people because they
don't get the whole picture. So to say that they don't tell
the whole people. Don't tell the people that what
kind of consequences it may have down the line in a few years or
how it's going to affect their longevity in the grand scheme.
They only get like the highlights.
And the most of the fitness gurus, they don't really know
how does metabolism real work. And what are they like side
effects? Yeah. 100% agree, man.
Like you only see the Highlight Reel and you only see the
headlines. So people they'll bounce around
from one headline to the other and they'll try everything and
in reality their bodies making no Headway at all and only
screwing up their metabolism and even worse.
They're the start their psychology towards being healthy
in the first place. And then, and they just become.
It becomes a very unhealthy. Process like the Quest for
longevity and overall health and and you know, optimizing your
performance should be an in job process.
But when you are constantly moving from one end of the
spectrum, the other and listen to so many different, you know,
points of wisdom that aren't really even wisdom.
It's a, it can certainly become a - I love, I love, I mean, I
don't know to the extent of what the research shows on this, but
maybe you can shed some light on it with, with fasting similar to
like sauna use, for instance, You know, you're actually
there's a period of time there where you're actually, you know,
benefiting and improving the natural growth hormone with
regard to fasting. Is there any way to I'm assuming
this can be very highly individualized but is there any
way to know what the window of opportunity?
So to speak is in which you know, you fast for x amount of
time and you include improve, you know, growth hormone by
enough to Warrant any temporary, you know, catabolic effectual
have on muscle tissue. At that point, like, is there
any kind of way to gauge that? I don't, I don't often think
that you can gauge it that way at your home.
You would probably have to take like a test at a laboratory or
something to see, like how much growth hormone know how much a
tough idea or actually, you know, going through at a
particular moment. But in general, like I said,
it's going to be very individualized and it's going to
vary greatly between different diets and varies greatly between
like the metabolic status of the person at that particular
moment. So for instance, most of the
benefits of fasting such as like increased growth hormone and
Itachi and ketosis. They're mostly kind of mediated
through this fuel sensing pathway of ampk which is like a
fuel sensor that mobilizes. A lot of the energy back up
stores such as like stem cells or esophageal and such.
So ampk gets activated under energy deprivation when your
body gets depleted of sir. The nutrients as most, the most
important ones are amino acids, which come from protein and
glucose, which from carbs. And when I mean no acids and
glucose are kind of low or if you're like liver glycogen is
also depleted then that's going to suppress the pathway of
Emptor and in. So doing that's gonna enable
ampk to do its work. So to say and proliferate the
the the That's going to help to activate autophagy and so on.
So in general if you keep your if you are reading like a lower
carb diet and then you can expect to get into a topology
faster and you get into like the therapeutic zone or fasting as
well faster because you don't have like that much extra energy
in the system. So your body is already somewhat
depleted. The ketogenic diet itself is
already activating ampk to a certain extent because of like
Logan and low. Glucose.
So you your you would probably give you able to again most of
the benefits of fasting much faster on a keto diet because
yeah, you don't have like a bunch of extra fuel that you
have to kind of burn through. Yeah.
That makes the makes total sense.
You mentioned mtor there. Can you can you flesh and then
out because I feel like a lot of people either here mtor the main
target of rapamycin and you know, half the people are like
okay. That's that's great.
That's what builds muscle, I got to have that.
Muscle protein synthesis and that's a good thing.
And then the other half is like, you know, that that's that's a
negative. It can cause cancer like there's
just this like a split right down the middle as far as what
people's view of inventory. So I'd love you to kind of
expand upon that. Well yeah.
And Tory is the anabolic switch of the body that makes
everything grow including the muscle tissue and nerve cells.
And unfortunately, if there are like some cancer cells, then
those things are will probably grow up as well, and aimed
towards oppression has been shown to like, Be able to fight
cancer and tumors, as well as extend lifespan in some species.
So, but the idea of employee giving you cancer specifically,
it's kind of misleading because if you don't have like any, you
know, preconditions or if you don't have any reasons to be
worried about it. If you don't have any cancer
already then and then you probably don't have to worry
about MTAR either because Emptor is still like essential for
life. And it's really important for
maintaining muscle mass as well as a cellular You think so.
Most people, they don't really have to worry about, you know,
over activating mtor within a, like, a reasonable dose.
Of course, if you do, the standard bodybuilding diet with,
you know, eating six times a day with high protein and high carbs
then, yeah. Probably you are over
stimulating Emptor. And that may have like some
unwanted consequences on like accelerating aging and such, but
yeah, on on like a regular type of diet on especially when Ikeda
at where protein itself isn't like super high.
It's still moderate in that case, you don't really have to,
you know, worry about it. And especially if you like do
some form of intermittent fasting or daily time where she
leading, then that's like an additional kind of benefit that
you don't really have to worry about them tour because fasting
is like suppressing mtor quite a lot and that's like the exact
opposite of anabolism. And when you would break a fast,
then you will actually want to consume something that spikes
Emptor just so you know have like the muscle Muscle protein
synthesis active, and you will be able to maintain muscle and,
you know, even build it. So it's kind of like, it's a
good, you know, parallel would be like, mtor is to aikido
adapted athlete as insulin is to a carb dependent athlete, almost
with with the with regard to, you know, the the spiking in the
ebb and flow and how you know, it's a it's an extreme growth
agent basically. Yeah yeah.
Like the biggest in torque is going to trigger muscle protein
synthesis which will help you to build muscle.
Muscle and you don't need specific, you don't need to be
consuming a carbs despite came to our to build muscles.
So to say, insulin would be maybe like using it to
accelerate this Spike faster and, you know, additional like
water, weight retention and such.
But on a keto diet, mtor itself, it may not.
You know what Spike that high? Just because of like, you don't
Spike insulin on a keto diet, insulin would be spiking the
emperor and most This is higher and then then on a low-carb
diet, because on a low-carb diet, you also have more
glucagon which will, which is the counterpart to insulin.
So, the spike of in the spike of eating protein, on a low carb
diet, it's not going to be causing that big of a spike of
in tour. I would imagine Chloe, so repeat
that. If like that, that's a
worthwhile point to stress, kind of comparing the glucagon in
carbon, a inverse sceeto adapted.
Yeah, well, let's say you eat. It probably like been big man
has done quite a lot of research about it and he has shown that
eating protein on a low carb. Keto diet.
It's not kind of Spike insulin, almost at all.
And it's, it's going to keep it, you know, somewhat moderate.
And it's feels like that you haven't eaten anything at all
based on like the incident to glucagon ratio.
And on a carved car, based diet, eating protein with carbs, he's
going to spike incident much higher.
Like I would believe is like 20 times higher than than regular.
Diets or a low-carb diet. And that's simply going to kind
of punctuate further the spike of Emptor as well, because
insulin spikes mtor and carbohydrates bike, Emptor and
proteins by counter. So, the combination of all those
three factors will kind of shoot em tour through the roof,
whereas on a low-carb diet, on a keto diet, the insulin glucagon
ratio is lower so you have more glucagon and insulin and that is
going to blunt the anabolic response.
So to say, your body's still going.
Absorb the protein but it's not going to over exaggerate the
spike of him to reject. Just because there isn't like a
high amount of insulin around. So you may mean we do you feel
it be safe to say that you could probably not build as much
muscle as efficiently per se with a keto, low carb diet based
off of that alone as a you know, carbohydrate-based diet but in
doing so you're also a less like to have some of the accompanying
negatives that come. Those extreme spikes.
Yeah, I would say yeah. Like you know there's a reason
why the professional bodybuilders eat a bunch of
carbs and proteins together and they do it like very frequently.
So they want to stimulate the mtor pathway all the time.
So that would be like the up most optimal for muscle growth.
And they're all of course, they're taking like anabolic
steroids as well which will, you know, emphasize it even further.
So for net, for regular people who don't really take steroids,
or who aren't who don't have, like the goal of becoming Mr.
Olympia then for them, they probably not doing the keto diet
just to build muscle. So to say, it's not the most
optimal diet for muscle building.
Although it's very possible and it's the quality gains are much
more sustainable. In my opinion on a low-carb
diet, you may I see the gains coming slower but it's still
like, it's still possible and really much more enjoyable as
well as preferable from the longevity perspective to do it
that way. Yeah, I totally agree and I've
always said pretty much the same thing in that I don't think
like, me as an athlete. I don't think that I'm building
muscle as quickly per se being strictly key to adapted.
But, you know, when you look at the life cycle or the body
composition cycle per se of an athlete, you know, they'll have
like a, like a bodybuilder will have like a building phase
building season in a cutting season.
And typically, you know, a carb dependent bodybuilder they'll
put on a little excess body fats or a lot excess body fat in the
offseason. The on a lot of muscle then
they'll cut that down and they put themselves in a state that
more times more often than not, you know you know exclusive
excluding the ones that are using some pretty enhanced Super
Supplement so to speak. You know, you are going to lose.
I mean you're going to be in a cat box that you're going to
lose some of that muscle tissue. So you build more muscle in the
offseason, you lose more muscle in the contest prep van.
I would think you know like myself as a keto adapted body
butter would like I'm not building his punch.
Also, per se in the offseason, but I'm also not losing as much
muscle. And then when you look at, you
know, the end of the day, when they step on stage, you know,
who comes out of head for like, I don't think that they're
maintaining enough muscle. When they're cutting to have a
net positive over me as a key to adapt an ethnic, if that makes
any sense, and then I can just basically stay Quito and forego,
a lot of the negatives that come with the crazy, you know, carb
dieting. So for me, it makes sense to To
just stay Quito and maybe, you know, sacrifice some of that
initial muscle gain at such a rate, but then all the other
benefits that come with it just make it, you know, definitely
worthwhile in my opinion. Yeah, exactly.
Like on a carb is that you do fluctuate, much more and not
only like the water weight but also like in terms of your more
predisposed to losing muscle, whenever you're not on the on
point with your diet. So to say that you actually
Reason why you have to be eating.
So frequently is to prevent catabolism on a high carb diet
because the Argo body isn't keyboard update.
And every time you are skipping me also, you're fasting.
Then you're losing muscle just because your body doesn't know
how to use its own body fat versus on the keto diet, that's
like the opposite. You actually thrive in these
moments where you're not eating just because you're going to be
burning, all your body fat and that's going to also protect
against the muscle catabolism, and it's like really a good way
of, you know, getting the, it's a good way.
A of getting all of the positive side of catabolism from fasting
without suffering, entirely from the negative side.
So to say you're not going to lose muscle when you're fasting
and that's gonna simply enable you to fast more often.
Fast more longer and yeah, it's going to have like a more
beneficial effect on longevity. Yeah.
Plus, I mean, just looking at the lifestyle that comes along
with it. I mean, you know, when I'm in a
contest prep and I'm Kido and that eating, you know, I mean,
oftentimes those eating one meal a day.
You know, one or two meals, a day tops and I didn't feel like
I was hungry obviously but I didn't feel like I was just you
know totally incompetent like I don't have the crazy brain fog
that a lot of competitors you know, suffer from when they're
when they're carbs are low, since that's my norm and and
that alone is like another, another huge factor that makes
dieting with a ketogenic approach more sustainable.
But it's a hard, I don't know, like, I feel like a lot of
people we live in a world, In which they want that instant
gratification, and it's A Hard Sell to encourage people to, you
know, forego some initial muscle building, you know, on the front
end to buy for my kids unique diet because they're not
thinking of, okay? All things equal when you step
onstage, you know and you know years from now who's healthier
both internally and who and externally and that's that's
where the issue lies. I think.
I mean how do you convince a bodybuilder?
Did not build as much muscle as possible in the moment, you
know, like that's a heart. That's a hard sell.
Yeah, well, we're gonna probably have to have like some sort of a
full keto athlete becoming ifbb Pro when I'm going to Olympia
stage and you know, winning something.
So, the get like some more attention, so people get
curious. Yeah.
I think like, it's definitely, it's definitely something that
could be cycled as well. And if you are, you know, going
through a certain phase in your life, when you want to maximize
your muscle growth, especially She'll if you were like young
and full of natural testosterone, then then you
would maybe like you know. Okay.
I'm and I'm eating a little bit more carbs but it's not going to
be like a big deal either be as long as you you know cycle it in
a sense that you stay on a higher carb diet for certain
while and then after a while you kind of settle down you start to
gradually lower your carbs. And you know you it's I don't
think it's necessary to be staying on a really strict.
You do that all the time to gain the benefits.
As well as a to avoid the side effects of high carb diet.
You don't even have to be going on a super high carb diet,
within a processed carbs, and, and cereal, and these chicken
breasts you can still say stay even on a like, somewhat of a,
you know, on like a pillow top or tired and still be building
plenty of muscle with it and then on some days on rest days,
for instance, you go into, like a keto template, and you don't
eat any carbs at all. So it's the kind of you but your
body will. Develop the medical flexibility
as well. You just have to actually become
clear adapted to a certain extent for some period of time
so that you can kind of build up the fat burning Machinery, in
your mitochondria. Because most most, the issues,
most of the issues come from the body, not being metabolically
flexible. And on a standard diet on people
who have never fasted or know who have no skip the meal, their
body is very inflexible and that's why they get the cravings
and that's why they get the brain fog.
So, the key to ratification is like the The Cornerstone to
becoming metabolic fixable because you need to, you know,
be able to tap in to a body fat and not be like affected by it.
I totally agree with that. I'm a little on the fence as to
whether or not. I think, once you are metabolic,
metabolic inflexible and you are, you know, benefiting from
from Quito that there is as much benefit from going back to the
carbs. Like if your, if your carb
dependent and you're suffering from all that comes with that or
or whatever. And you, and you go Kido And you
kind of breach in a metabolic flexibility there.
Like that's a huge step in the right direction.
I think that needs to be everybody's goal but like for
me, for instance, I'm not sure that I would have enough benefit
come from, you know, dipping back into carbs to make it more
worth my while. I like once, I'm key to adapt
and I don't necessarily need to be metabolically flexible.
Like my might, like the machineries there.
Like if I was to be stranded on an island and there was no meat
and I had to eat carbs, I got it, I would function just fine.
But given the option, I don't know that I would, I don't know
that. Have much of a benefit from
introducing the cars back. I mean, maybe I don't know.
What do you think? Yeah, it's like, it's like some,
it's not necessarily having to be, you know, like a full blown
out. Fluctuation in a sense, you
don't need to be like I feel like a lot of the negative
connotations about the cyclical keto.com from people going
really crazy with them and eating like a bunch of cake and
chips and all those things and then feeling like crap the next
day. So it's not it's not going to be
supposed to supposed to work, but I feel like you can still
Will you know maintain that aspect of metabolic flexibility
by? Maybe only having like a sweet
potato as dinner on some days and doing it maybe like a few
times a week or maybe a few times a month to know depending
on your goals and depending on how you feel like it's not
necessary to go, like really crazy with it.
And I do think that, you know, for a most time like 80% of the
time you still want to stay on a low carb, keto template just
because of like, you will maintain better key rotation and
you will probably feel better mentally as well.
So yeah, yuge Using I only incorporate some metabolic
flexibility with carbs just so I wouldn't you know get to get
these sort of reactions where I get brain fog, whenever I
accidentally eat some potatoes in a soup at the restaurant or
something, you know that I don't want to lose this and this the
ability to metabolize carbs properly.
So to say if like there are there's definitely a lot of
potential issues of avoiding certain and nutrients.
Like, I don't know, gluten or lectins or A certain period of
time and everybody actually develops that, like, a
resistance towards them and just because of you, you previously
didn't have any problems, but you read some books and at the
dangerous and you started avoiding them and then your
body, you know, develops an autoimmune disorder whenever you
next time we eat em. So that's not like an ideal
place to be, you just, you know, incorporate some, some aspects
of them. Every once in a while, just
search to keep like the metabolic history alive and do
we do we not like affected by them in the long term?
Yeah. I See that, you know, I can see
if you're going to be in a situation or environment where
you're, you know, you're going to have scarves, you know, it
would be advantageous for your body to not, you know,
unrecognized them be unrecognizable.
I what you would want them to be able to know what to do with
them basically. Like for I love to get your pain
on this like for me, you know I can like if I'm at a restaurant
and there's, you know, some potatoes in the soup.
I could just like fast and then eat the soup.
Like if I'm totally Lee cool and fun with not ever having a bolus
of carbs again in my life, which I am like, I am I missing out on
anything. Why do you think that I'm in an
inherent disadvantage? Because I mean, I think, you
know, we live in a day and age, where you know, there's enough
food in abundance that, I mean, I could always pick what to eat.
I mean, I could see where it be at a disadvantage.
If you know, for I was like held at gunpoint and told to eat a
bunch of, you know, carbs but if that's not the case.
It's like do you think I'm missing out by not having the
carbs? No, no I don't think so like not
really like. Yeah if you were to be you know
if you were to be able to go through a life for the rest of
her life on the same diet that you're doing right now, then
that will be like perfectly fine and I sense your body would be
like, really efficient at the cat running ketones and add up
that to that and the same for like the carnivore that as well.
Like, if you were to be eating the same the same meat and, you
know, the same, the same kind of our diet, all the time for the
rest of life, and not consume any plants.
Then that would be like I would imagine, it's okay.
It's just that. They're like, if you are aware
to accidentally eat something out of the ordinary, something
that's not normal to your diet, then you would probably, you
know, experience some of the negative side effects, like some
lethargy, or brain, fog, or even some like serious got orders or
something. So, yeah, this is the second
year, like some proof of preference preference.
I die myself wouldn't want to become.
I myself wouldn't want to Corner myself into like that, that
position. I would want to be like a more
flexible and be able to like tolerate some random randomness.
Like I'm not going to be ordering, you know, potato soup
at restaurants any means or not. I'm not going to go.
I'm not going to be ordered at Liberty ordering the key, but I
still want my body to be, you know, ready for it.
Whenever you accidentally comes or whenever the situation, you
know, writers do you think they're like, you know, and
there's no way to really know this though.
There's no way that I could think of the test because
there's no long-term studies to this degree.
But I feel like being stripped, the heat of adapted as I have
for, as long as I have, you know, for five years now.
It's improved the machinery. That I have at, you know, just
day-to-day function but also, you know, from a performance
athletes perspective, you know, building muscle.
So, like, if I'm not introducing carbs, I don't have that as a
variable in my nutrition, then, you know, I'm still subjecting
my body to the stimulus of training and you know, moving
heavy things and having the form and all that stuff that comes
with being a bodybuilder. I feel like since I haven't
introduced carbs in the Inner Room, you know over the course
of the past 45 years, my body's Machinery has improved to the
point that I'm not even really missing out like my new Norm has
become. The ketogenic diet and I'm able
to build muscle just as effectively if not more.
So than, you know, I was in years prior because I just like,
really just streamlined the operation but again, I don't
know how there be any way to quantify that.
Like it would be just such a, just too many variables at play
to be able to test that, but I do think there's a hair
advantage to, you know, being strictly adapted long-term just
as there's an inherent advantage to being metabolic.
People like depending on what your goals are, depending on
what you're trying to accomplish, there can be an
argument for an advantage with everything.
But what do you think to the terms of just being strictly
adapted for years on end? Well, I do think yeah.
Like that's it's especially true here that if you do it long term
then your body will adapt to. It's a very efficiently
especially like different tissues and organs like the
brain, the mitochondria and even muscle.
So to say that the things that you would maybe want to the
things you could kind of Record if I would be reads of glycogen
resynthesis, especially with things like eating fats and
such. So on a keto diet, your main
fuel source is that and ketones. So they would still kind of
replicate the, the idea that you're eating glucose almost.
So I would suggest that they are like the ketones in the fats.
They are the same as carbs on a car.
But after that Lee and the only difference might be that the The
kind of rates of glycogen resynthesis would still be
somewhat limited by the procedure of the, by the race of
gluconeogenesis, sort of say. So in order to store glycogen on
a keto diet, then you still need to convert those fats into
glucose through gluconeogenesis. So you would probably think
we'll be doing it much faster and much more efficiently than
someone else. So the quarterback or adapted
athlete, they probably don't convert any fat into glycogen.
At least, I can reasonably long. But I would say, yeah, you
probably like resynthesize glycogen faster with fetes and
as well as like you're probably able to trigger muscle protein
synthesis either bitter or either.
You would probably trigger it, you know, more efficiently.
You don't need that much insulin your, you don't need that much
protein to trigger muscle protein synthesis, just because
you like the ketones substitutes, a lot of the energy
requirements, especially for the brain and other vital organs.
So, yeah, you definitely definitely.
Like there is a lot of You know adaptation that will make
running on ketones. Much more efficient especially
if you do it like over the course of a mini years and also
there's I believe there was definitely like some epigenetic
change as well, just because of running on Ketone.
Like there is differently. I got genetic difference between
the Inuit as well as you know, the Maasai or someone from some
some equatorial tropical forest. So to say the running on
different fuel sources and they do genetic Machinery is also
different. And yeah, I would suggest that
the keto diet itself is like a almost like an epigenetic.
If you do it like a long-term, maybe like four years, wouldn't
be like enough to have like some real serious epigenetic changes
but maybe like a few tickets then you were probably your
children will also be borrowing more key to adapt.
Its if you were to do it for like a long period of time, I
would, I would imagine. Yeah.
No this this is fascinating
because like you know, epigenetics is I think really
starting to gain in it. Start to become more in the
public eye. How, you know what you do can
legitimately impact your Direct Offspring, you know, like that's
a interesting phenomenon because it's not like Evolution, you
know, it takes hundreds, thousands of years, it's like
pretty much within the span of a lifetime.
So, you know, on that this is pretty crazy about, you know,
all that's one of the reasons why you would want to pay more
attention to your biomarkers and the diet, and exercise and such
because, like, a lot of children are already already, you know,
being born with pre-diabetes or something, just because their
parents are eating so many carbs and sugars, and the That the
baby food is also like full of photos and all other stuff.
So yeah there is definitely something to like you have to
pay attention to it right now because everything you do right
now is going to have like a quantitative effect in the
future especially our Offspring and your jeans.
Yeah. And in situ I mean I'm a very
strongly in the camp of strict keto.
But on that note, I mean maybe I'm doing my future kids, a
disservice by being so strictly adapted because they may not be
as metabolic and flexible run out the gates.
I mean You know, you never know, it's kind of like just, you
know, like self experimentation and yeah, like although you may
be wanting you may be willing to go on a keto diet for the rest
of Life, your children may not be able to so to say or who
knows like or that the environment in the world is
going to change maybe as well. So who knows?
I guess it's a pretty interesting topic.
Yeah, yeah. Now it is for sure.
And I think a lot of people they don't recognize that that what
they're doing today can have such a profound impact on.
I think it was a Anthony J. I was talking to Anthony J but
he's like epigenetics can have an impact on, not only you, but
for Generations past you, so like your grandkids kids can be
impacted by the decisions you're making today, you know,
compounded over time obviously, but that's just a crazy
phenomenon, like, people need to stop and think about that.
And, you know, it's our responsibility to freaking
Humanity to do what we know to be the best thing for us, you
know, based off the information that we have at hand.
So, I mean, to go against that and to just be blatantly lie.
Lazy towards, you know, self-improvement is just a
disservice to everybody. Yeah.
Like a few months ago I got I did like a Q&A on my own podcast
and one of the questions I was like do I believe in an
afterlife? And I answered it in a way,
something along the lines that you shouldn't focus on trying to
reduce your own suffering, when you're dead.
So to say, you would want to focus on how can I reduce the
suffering. Of those who are left behind me,
especially, they're like my children and my family members,
so yeah. The I would have to, I would
have to take care of myself and my jeans.
So I will, so I wouldn't give birth to a child who is going to
have like, some for some form of disease, just because I didn't
take care of myself. So, yeah, you shouldn't focus
on. How can I reduce my suffering in
the afterlife? You should focus on how can I
reduce the suffering of those who are going to come after me.
And my offsprings are the same my jeans.
I'm really really like them. Have never heard it put that
way, but I 100% in green I think, you know, like looking at
like Conservation for instance, you know like actively taking
measures to make sure that the the wildlife habitat.
You know the natural habitat with that we have on this planet
now you know stays intact and not only you know maintains but
improves and I feel like there's there's such a mindset around
just get it while you can so to speak right now and it's
honestly just disgust me because so many people just are so
greedy and selfish in, you know, benefiting themselves as much as
they can while they can in the moment and they have Thought
whatsoever to Generations, you know, after them and it's all
responsible like if we're if we have the blessing to be put on
this Earth, like if we, I mean the chances of being alive or
like one gazillion, I don't know what the statistics are.
But if you're on this Earth, you're listening to this podcast
and you feel like the world owes you anything, then you're
screwed up in the head like you gotta you gotta do like your
responsibilities on this planet is to leave it better than you
found it period. Yeah this is there is a lot of a
lot of entitlement that, okay. I deserve to Have a six-pack or
a dessert to be rich or something.
I deserve to get Social validation or such Why why isn't
anyone paying attention to me then?
Yeah. It's really something to it's
like what somewhat immature in the sense that you don't
realize. Yeah.
How fortunate you really are and like there's so many things to
be grateful for. Yeah, I completely agree with
him completely agree. I wanted to pick your brain on
saunas and I kind of mentioned them earlier but I know you've
you know, experiment with hot and cold.
Therapy. We talked a little bit about the
red lights on us on our last podcast, but I'm on the fence.
A, I'm not on the fence, like I'm probably going to pull the
trigger on buying a sauna, but I don't know what which type of
song, I don't know that because I mean not all saunas are
created equal, kind of, like most things in life, so kind of
dive into that. And just let me, let me pick
your brain and just learn about. Wow, what I should do going for
with the sauna. Well, I think like, the best
sauna is like a regular Finnish sauna with like a wooden stove
and And the rear rocks and and so that will be like a really
you can get the temperature much higher than in an infrared sauna
and you do like accumulate it's like what also like you know,
natural. It doesn't have any EMF or
something of that sort of like the road.
Probably some ways of even building some finish sona's with
an electrical fire furnace, that would, you know, be usable even
in an apartment. So that will be like my go to go
to think that I would For. But at the same time, using like
a regular infrared, sauna is also, okay, as an alternative.
It's not like the best one in my opinion, but it still works.
And I also have a I have both of them.
So, on a regular on a daily basis, I'm using like, the
infrared sauna. Just just to just do it like,
not been that one time, like heating up the regular Sona and,
you know, firing building up the fire and so on.
So the infrared sauna is much more convenient and quicker in
this sense. But in general, yeah, if you
were to take an infrared sauna, then you'd also have to get
something that is like lower in EMF, because it's not like worth
it to sit in the infrared. Sauna, if you're gonna be
ingredients by these non-native me f and, and other wavelengths.
So, yeah, so you have a ton in which you're making a fire and
like legit hardcore. Old-school, sauna.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like the regular Finnish sauna. Yeah.
I have that one. And it's the best one.
Just because I Very natural and it's also like more I do
experience that in the regular. So now you build more heat that
the temperature is higher. And at the same time, you also
get like the the sweating is also easier.
You start to sweat easier and you feel somewhat better, huh?
So, so what about near-infrared like I here?
I see that term used. Pretty broadly in like the sauna
World near infrared sauna. What does that mean?
Well, it's basically means that the wavelength is somewhat
different and it's going to penetrate less of the skin.
I would imagine not sure like what's the huge like difference
between them, but because most of the, so not actually have
both both lower wavelengths. But yeah, I would imagine that
the near-infrared so nice simply it doesn't penetrate the skin
that deeply. It's like on the surface level
and probably only stimulates stimulates only like the sweat
glands as well as I, you know, the skin and the collagen in
there. But the Regular infrared sauna
that will be probably penetrating deeper into the like
the deeper tissues of the of the body and you want it.
So with regard to the wavelengths like there's pros
and cons to having that wavelength penetration, right?
Yeah. That there's probably some like
the let's say the therapeutic. Most of the research is done on
on the wavelength between like maybe like six hundred and 780
NM somewhere somewhere there. So So I'm not sure like if most
of the sonars are somewhere between there as well, I would I
would say that most of the research is also done in that
area. Can she catch?
And so if somebody was to you know be compelled to go buy or
build a sauna you know, after losing to this like I am, what
would you what would you recommend?
Because their particular brand or like like what what what do I
need to do? I've heard well, I haven't like
try. It's all of the brands in North
America and I'm not sure like which ones are the best ones.
But yeah you probably look for something that has like a lowest
EMF as possible and also like that on their website that they
that they do like have some specific research done on their
on their particular brand. That will be like a good good
sign to look for from a sauna and any can you describe the the
EMF little bit more? Like what is that?
Exactly. Well, EMF is like
electromagnetic frequencies and it's simply going to disrupt
some of your own bodies, electromagnetic field in a way
and like, I haven't researched it that deeply.
But I've heard, you know, that it's real Arrow connected to
some lower testosterone and sleep problems and and so on.
So you get like the EMF all around you on a daily basis,
like from the Wi-Fi router from the cell phone towers, and On
cell phone and so on. So you probably don't want to
you know be exposed to that much EMF all the time and you don't
you want to limit it to a certain point catch and it's
coming from the bulbs in the sun has specifically.
Yeah. And infrared sauna.
Yeah but yeah if you have if you have like some.
So now that is low EMF then that's not going to be like a
huge issue. I would imagine gotcha.
Gotcha. What about the sauna use paired
with like cold therapy? Know because I've You know, I
think the interesting man, I've done research in some people
like, you know, you're getting like 99% the benefits from the,
you know, hot therapy alone with the saunas and they kind of
negates the night. The cold plunge is a nice pass
and whatnot, but where do you stand on that whole topic?
I actually think that, you know, using both of them, the hot and
cold will get you more of the benefits because you're at the
same. Well, I like the benefits of
the, of the Hut of the heat are that.
Gonna raise growth hormone and promote recovery and reduce
inflammation, as well as stimulate the lymphatic system,
you know, flush out some of the toxins and so on while
simultaneously, it's also like feels like a cardio workout to a
certain extent to its can increase your heart rate and
promote blood flow. So when you do get to the cold,
the cold is also reducing inflammation and activates Brown
fat and and, and such. So if you combine them together,
then you're kind of simultaneously.
Training your nervous system as well to jump back and forth
between like the person pathetic state and sympathetic State and
you kind of get a like a field, much more effective and I would
say that yet there has been like a lot of studies done or
research done. Let's look specifically at
what's the benefits of doing them both together but you do
get like an emphasized lymphatic drainage especially like an
increased blood flow as well. So I would say that It's it's
somewhat like a better better to do them together.
So with with you, you know, knowing this as you do and then
kind of doing all the stuff experimentation that you have,
how do you structure your day as it relates to, you know, meal
timing hot and cold therapy as it looks to training like when
you're going to the course of a day, like when do you, when do
you eat, you know, based off training schedule, just kind of
walk me through that. Well, I myself practice It's
definitely daily timers because eating and iterative testing.
So usually on a regular basis on like, maintenance mode.
So eating only once a day and consuming more food within maybe
two to three hours, something along the lines of that, it's
not like a one meal, but it seems like a like a like a
expanded me or over the course of several hours.
And during the daytime, I'm simply a drinking only water,
some black coffee and some teas. Something that too.
Keep myself going as well as a promote, some of the benefits of
the fast like increased fat mobilization and some autophagy
as well. So usually my up my workouts is
also around the afternoon. We're usually working out in a
fasted state, but on some Cajun on some occasions.
I also made take like some protein powder, just during the
workout to get some protein in my system and to have like an
additional anti catabolic effects during The workout.
But on, if I'm not working out then I'm usually eating only
once a day and no additional supplements or anything like
that. During the day and my meals are
primarily. They are still like locard keto
and still higher in protein. So to say that, I still want to
get adequate amounts of protein to to counterbalance the fasting
side of the day to not go like into the catabolic mode.
So does it. Because if you start to restrict
your protein, on top of Ink and on top of training as well.
Then you probably won't get like the optimal results in terms of
muscle maintenance and the muscle growth even.
So yeah, I tend to eat primarily like a lot of eggs which are
good for triggering, mtor, and triggering muscle protein
synthesis because of they have a lot of leucine.
And next to the eggs are still have like some meat and I still
eat like vegetables and fermented foods like sauerkraut
and so on. So that's like a good standard
kind of Dinner that I have likes.
Take some eggs and some vegetables with you having such
an extended fasting period, do you think it would be
advantageous to have like any like amino acids like leucine?
Like even when you're training rather than having the protein
panel, it just having like a branch chain amino supplement,
you think that would be enough to negate any - catabolic
effects? I would think that the regular
protein powder would be better because you get, you still get
like the amino acids from the protein powder but you still but
you also get like Building blocks the a protein, actual
itself. So that we'll be better, just
taking the branch chain amino acids.
Although they may provide some pcas and semantically break fix
they say they won't be able to, you know, you may like
accidentally shift yourself from like into a fit State and just
because you're taking all the BCAAs without the protein, then
you may like go into catabolic mode just because of that.
Whereas, if you take like the regular protein, then you get
both the BCAAs as well as the actual building blocks of
proteins. So you are not going to
sacrifice any additional muscle loss, just because of that.
What, what kind of protein is like a legit?
The Whey Isolate or something? No, I don't really like, like
the generic protein powders because like they have, you
know, these other filler agents and also like the artificial
sweeteners, especially things like, sucralose or Asperger's,
or the, or something like that. So I use a like a, like a
regular protein powder, without any sweeteners.
That has like other adaptogenic herbs and spices like Maca and
cacao. And so on, it's like a natural
protein powder without without this regions.
And what do you get that? It's a brand from the UK.
It's called the Primal Alchemy and they have like a really,
really, really awesome. Like a super food, protein
powder, like then some cacao makka pakka, Ginger.
And other other cool stuff when we talked I guess, has in mind,
I don't know, probably a year year and a half since you were
on the podcast last Have you noticed the ketogenic diet kind
of gaining in popularity over there?
Where you're at, or no? Hmm, yeah.
Well, there is been like, some increase in the popularity of
Quito and fasting and Angelic General by a king as well.
Part of it. Have may have to do with like
the, we organized. Also the biohackers summit a
conference in my home, or home City talent, and there was like
plenty of people there and I think that helped with the
popularity. But yeah, I think simply Quito
is becoming so popular across the entire So most countries
still like some people who are interested in improving their
health and optimizing their nutrition.
Then they are have heard at least I've heard about it and
they may be like have like a basic understanding of what it's
about. Yeah that's very common school
to see it spreading you know beyond just the states here
where I'm at but just you know globally.
Talk about your book man. I want to give you some time at
flesh that at me and I saw the book is no joke.
It's a pretty pretty detailed for sure.
So, can I give it the audience? Listeners some insight into
where the motivation to write that came from and what all it
entails. Yeah, so my new book is called
metabolic at apogee and it is it talks about a lot of the ways
that we talked about in this podcast already or how do we
optimize both fasting and resistance training for
longevity and performance. So the goal is to still be able
to you know build muscle and promote your longevity in so
doing and Once the what and not suffering from some of the
negative side effects of, you know, overly stimulated games or
all the time, and not suffering from the side effects of doing
fasting, and still kind of Bridging the Gap between both
ends of the spectrum and, you know, getting getting the best
of both girls, whether that be for muscle maintenance and
muscle growth or just general well-being, and health catchy
catchy. And what made you?
I mean, you've written books in the, in the past prior.
But what can a What motivated you to hinge off on, right?
This one was like, can he just knew compelling researcher?
Just simply you. No longer you've gone doing
this. The more you've learned.
You just want to put that information out there as well.
I think like one of the biggest reasons I wrote it is to.
Yeah, I refute some of the misconceptions in the, like, a
low-carb Community, about protein and mtor, and fasting,
and so on. So, to Simply to show or to talk
about the science of the, how to actually how it is possible to
do it in. Optimal way.
And yeah, it's simply like teaching the context of the
situation as well, because everything that we talked about
today, they're all very context dependent and the required to
actually know like, what's the particular situation of the
individual and what are their goals and what are their
metabolic conditions? And so on for the book.
So the book itself not only teaches you like what would be
like the optimal way of doing it.
But also teaches you the context sides of how can I apply this?
Same principle? Two bowls into whatever kind of
situation I may come across and how do I actually, you know,
understand how the metabolism works and how can I use those
things? Same principles in these
different situations? Yeah, I've gotta tip my hat to
you on that one manage. There's so much controversy
within like the low-carb space right now and a lot of it is
simply due to people lacking the context.
So the cool thing about you like the reason I love talking to you
is just because you're smart enough and open-minded nothing
reasonable enough to understand that.
Are often is the shading gray and everything's not black
white. You have to look at it, you
know, full circle. So, you know, congrats to you
for having the foresight to write about and hopefully open
other people's as well because it's just kind of pathetic to
see people get. So just frustrated and immature
about things that they don't even totally grasp, you know,
right? Yeah.
It's like the context is where all the magic lies about people
simply don't want to learn about the context and they seem to
want to get like these answers and It goes back to like the
immediate gratification of here. What what, what works for me
right now and they don't really know that it's very context.
Dependent as very complex, human body is, like one of the most
complex things in the universe. So it's like it.
Union shouldn't expect to get an easy answer in in writing the
book and all the research that you did to, you know, write it.
What was something that surprised you?
What did you learn? That you weren't expecting, mmm.
Maybe like things that I still was, you know, I'm amazed about
Towards like the controversy about saturated fats, as well as
like meat and such and that they're all the cause of all of
the diseases in the modern world.
Whereas in reality when you actually go into the science and
look at the research, then you see that okay is not the actual
case. And most of it has to do with
misinterpreting the the science. And even on a mechanistic level
cholesterol as well as I meet their, they don't like have like
a negative effects on the body. In a, like a healthy contact
Jose. In a proper context and in the
context where it's not combined with, you know, the all the
other processed foods of the western western diet.
Yeah. That's, that's a very good
point. Mean, like I look at, you know,
a lot of the information is put out there today and it's totally
in the face of in that. That's much research.
But just the wisdom that people are putting out there.
The government's putting out there today is just so counter
to what all the research is showing and, you know, any
five-minute Google search could pull up, Actual science that
dispels all these myths, but it just really illustrates how
slow-moving this dietary nutritional ship is because it's
like such a behemoth of, you know, information and it's hard
to turn, you know, overnight. And it's unfortunate because so
many people are just going to be late to the party and not being
taken advantage of the the true and accurate information, until
you know, many years after it's come out, but I think, I think,
you know, people like you write in the books that you are.
Podcast, all that stuff is pretty much doing everything.
We can to educate people on where to start, looking for
accurate information. Yeah, we did is true.
Like a lot of different spices as well as different
conflicting. Conflicting interests, those.
All of those things and shape the public opinion, or the pop
of the dietary, guidelines of every country.
Yes, for sure. One more question for you.
Same, what, what do you what are you doing now?
What are you experiment on right now?
That is As get your excitement like, is there anything specific
that you're trying to you know, figure out and find the answer
to you know with yourself for keto or whatever?
They what, what are you what are you diving into right now?
Well, I think at the moment I've been doing a lot of different
kind of workouts. Like every day almost doing full
body workouts every day to assert in some shape or form,
but not like overstimulating, my nervous system.
So this kind of like incorporating more Frequency
into my workout week, but still looking at.
Okay. How can I use these different
ways of progressing in strength and muscle growth?
So yeah, usually that's my at the moment like the my workout
Focus for at the moment, doing full body workouts, with my own
body for like calisthenics type workouts every day and seeing
how I respond, what have you what have you learned so far
with the increased frequency? Its it Feels, you know really
effective in a sense that you have like a elevated.
The elevated protein synthesis signal is cannot remain elevated
for longer and you kind of tend to recover faster from the
workouts as well just because you do it.
So frequently. The only caveat is that you
don't necessarily want to, you know, hit failure.
And you don't want to overdo it because it's gonna simply
jeopardize recovery. But in general, I feel like it's
been, it's been pretty good so far.
The the aspect of getting stronger is definitely faster.
In terms of that you you practice the movements for
frequently and you kind of attack you, you send the signal
to your nervous system to adapt more frequent as well.
So you just have to make sure that you don't overdo it.
Is it hard to pull back on the reins and not go to failure.
If you're wanting to push yourself, I do like hit maybe,
you know 90% of my failure every once in a while.
But usually I don't like Like make it mandatory thing.
So to say that I'm not going to be okay.
This is my only workout for the week so I have to really crush
it. So that's that's like that not
the mindset because I know that, okay, I'm going to still have
some time to do it again the next day or the following day.
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, kind of experiment with
my training as well and it's it's interesting because the
body responds to you know all these different stimulus you
subjected to in some very different ways.
And I've always And I gravitated towards like the traditional,
you know, bro, split so to speak with your, you have one specific
muscle group that you're training that day, typically
only train that one body part once a week.
And then in that one session, you just, you know, hit it hard
for two and a half hours sometimes.
And you just like go to absolute value on everything, you know,
just go to the extreme and then you don't do that again until
the next week. Now, I've been kind of changing
it up sometime, I'm having a more like a higher frequency
style train, not a We day like you, but like, I'll train the
same muscle directly at least twice a week and then
indirectly, you know, three or four times a week, but in doing
that, it's like, you know, you're you're chipping away at
it bit by bit and just makes the whole thing more sustainable.
So, like from a psychological perspective it's it's you know
the final outcome, the in outcome, I think will be better
because of this plus I'm at less risk for injury which is also a
huge win. Yeah yeah.
It's like I myself don't like don't make it like that, I do or
die thing in the sense that if I do feel that, okay, I'm a bit
sore today, then I won't be having like a heavy workout but
I still like maybe move myself around a little bit and you just
out of this. I'm gonna keep having all these
questions. I keep bringing up, but do you
do you have like an ordering or do you track your HRV at all and
you base any of your training off of that?
Yeah, I do have the wiring and and I do pay some attention to
the HRV and heart rate heart rate.
But yeah, it's a good indicator of actually in, you know,
looking at something. What kind of a state, your
nervous system is in. But in most cases, you can also
feel a little bit like, okay, I'm actually feeling sore or I'm
feeling like I have some sort of a code or something.
So, in that case, I'm not going to be, you know, ignoring the
data. And I'm not gonna ignore my
intuition either. So, yeah.
But in most cases is the deviations between, like heart
rate, variability and such, they do fluctuate a little bit.
So, I met Pete, it pay attention to it a little bit, but most the
first kind of focus would be still on like how you actually
feel in my body and heart of my muscles feel.
Yeah. Totally agreement has been
several times where like I'll look at my or ring that it'll
say that I should take a rest day but then I just get mad that
it tells me take a rest day. So I'll go work out and I'll
have like a better workout than had.
I taken a rest day or had been had I you know, seen a good
reading which maybe not a good thing maybe you know.
That compound that over time is going to lead to injury, but
some people get too tied into what some outside factors,
telling them, as opposed to what they're actually feeling being
in tune with your body. And recognizing that is is I
think a Paramount importance than any any wearable, any
technology in the additive is just simply supplemental to what
you should be doing inherently, you know, instinctively anyways.
Yeah. So true people are distant from
their nature, but at the same time that technology itself can
Bridge the gap and get you back closer to your nature and by if
you use it the right way and you don't become like controlled by
it. Very good point, or shoot me an
accident, talk to you all day, but I want to be respectful of
your time. Where can people go to find out
more about you and get the book? Yeah, well on all the social
media platforms, I'm seem Lund. And the book is metabolic
autophagy on Amazon, so it's also written by simulant.
Awesome. Awesome awesome.
Again, man, always a pleasure. Definitely keep in touch.
I'm always curious. Curious to hear what you're
working on and what you're discovering.
So let me know everything that I could do and definitely keep in
touch man because I'm like, I said, I always and Keen to know
what you've discovered, you know, it's in touch, take a bun.