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Well, hello ladies and gents, 
Robert Sykes, keto, savage.com. 

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Today I've got special guest 
Doctor David Wiss on the line 

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and we dive deep, deep, deep 
into the world of disordered 

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eating tendencies, food 
addiction, what causes that, 

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what the catalyst is, what are 
some of the driving forces? 

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How to recover from that? 
We talk about body positivity, 

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we talk about different 
modalities for recovering from 

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different forms of disordered 
eating, both overeating under 

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eating, bingeing, purging. 
This is a topic that I hold near

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and dear because this is 
something that I've struggled 

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with in the past. 
It's something I've worked with 

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multiple clients on. 
This is something that often 

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times gets swept under the rug 
because people are shameful in 

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talking about it, but 
nonetheless is an incredibly 

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important topic that needs to be
addressed and people need to 

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find recovery from. 
SO. 

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I've thoroughly enjoyed this 
conversation. 

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I've learned a ton. 
I've got no doubt that you will 

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take something from it. 
Whether you are struggling with 

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a disordering tendency or you 
know someone that is, by all 

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means let them know about this, 
share it with them and let's 

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move the needle in the right 
direction as it pertains to 

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recovering from food addiction 
and disordered eating. 

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So without further delay, sit 
back, relax, enjoy the podcast 

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with Doctor David Wiss 
and we are live Doctor David 

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Wiss. 
How are you Sir? 

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Super. 
I'm so glad to be here chatting 

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with you today, Robert. 
I'm excited to be chatting with 

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you man. 
So we are going to be diving 

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into the topic of psychology as 
it pertains to one's 

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relationship with food, eating 
disorder tendencies, things of 

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that nature, which is something 
that I feel like a lot of people

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deal with but is often times 
left unsaid. 

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So I'm really excited to just 
roll up her sleeves and see 

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where the conversation takes us.
Where was the the inspiration to

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get into this field to begin 
with for you, man? 

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Yeah, I think when I was in 
Graduate School getting my 

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master's degree, I did a 
master's thesis on nutrition and

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substance abuse, and I was 
trying to learn about 

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connections between certain 
substances and how they can lead

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to certain nutritional 
deficiencies. 

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And I really realized there 
there was an exciting area of. 

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Nutrition for mental health that
was largely untapped. 

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The eating disorder field has 
been around for a few decades. 

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It has made some progress, but 
the progress has been pretty 

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slow and I got really interested
in nutrition for substance use 

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disorder, which got me 
interested in nutrition for. 

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Addictions as a whole food 
addiction. 

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And then we learned about 
nutrition's role in depression, 

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anxiety, and it got really 
exciting to know that there was 

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a field that was needed and also
largely untapped. 

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And I said, I'm not going to 
wait for the research. 

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I'm going to go ahead and be the
guy that does the research. 

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I love it. 
I love it. 

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When you were doing your initial
research, what kind of 

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substances were you studying 
that were leading to these 

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deficiencies? 
Yeah, I mean the the data is 

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quite sparse. 
It's not super robust in terms 

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of having trials and actual, you
know, studies. 

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There's a lot of associational 
studies which point to 

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correlations. 
But you know, as a as a broad 

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stroke, you know, alcohol has 
the most pronounced effects on 

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the gastrointestinal tract. 
And of course, opioids are known

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for impacting gut health as 
well. 

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And when I was doing my initial 
research, this was over 10 years

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ago. 
It was before the microbiota 

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research had really exploded. 
So in recent years, you know, 

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we've been able to see very 
clearly that for example, 

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alcohol causes shifts in the 
internal ecosystem, changes in 

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the microbiota, it can lead to 
intestinal permeability which 

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can activate. 
Inflammatory cascades. 

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We know that the alcoholic liver
disease isn't actually from the 

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effects of ethanol itself on the
liver. 

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It's more from the effects of 
alcohol on the gut, leading to a

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gut leakiness which you know can
release. 

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Endotoxins and and bacteria, we 
call it bacterial translocation 

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into the bloodstream which ends 
up in the liver and that's the 

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source of a lot of liver damage.
So we're looking at the gut 

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lining, we're looking at the 
microbiota, we're looking at the

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liver. 
And yeah, alcohol and and 

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opioids have the most pronounced
effect on the actual GI tract. 

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And then of course, you know we 
have other substances, 

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stimulants. 
Cocaine, methamphetamine, 

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etcetera. 
And there just isn't a lot of 

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data there. 
But we know, we know that 

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certain substances are 
associated with certain 

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nutritional deficiencies. 
But it's still unclear if the 

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deficiency comes from the 
substance over utilizing 

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nutrients or leading to 
deficiencies, or from the poor 

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dietary intake, because most 
people that are using alcohol 

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and drugs don't have a good. 
Nutritional regimen per SE. 

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So yeah, there's a lot of 
unknowns there and I got really 

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interested in it. 
But the data didn't move very 

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quickly. 
And I I I was like kind of 

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screaming nutrition for 
addiction from the rooftop for 

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for many years. 
And then I started to see where 

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the data, where the studies were
happening, and that was in 

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nutrition for depression, 
nutrition for anxiety. 

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And the literature linking 
nutrition interventions for 

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improving depressive symptoms is
actually quite robust. 

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And that's where I've. 
Really Sort of pivoted to 

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because depression is a growing 
problem and we need people to 

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think about how food and 
lifestyle medicine can be a part

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of the solution. 
Yeah, I completely agree man. 

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On the alcohol front, it's 
interesting. 

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I've been, I have, I've never 
really had an issue with alcohol

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consumption, but I started a 
challenge as part of a challenge

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with some people and I haven't 
had a drop of alcohol in over a 

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year now and I'm not really 
motivated to have any more. 

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The more I dive into its 
implications on the gut 

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microbiome, just sleep quality. 
Like there's not really anything

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working in favor of. 
Alcohol. 

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That's right. 
That's right. 

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But as far as food as a catalyst
for good mental health and 

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well-being like that is 
something that I'm profoundly 

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interested in. 
Because the depression rates 

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seem to be ever skyrocketing, 
and it seems to be pretty well 

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correlated to people's lack of 
proper nutrition and 

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nourishment. 
So it makes total sense to me 

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that they would be interlinked 
in some form or fashion. 

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They're so, they're so 
interlinked. 

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And I think what questions still
need to be answered is, you 

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know, is it the ultra processed 
foods themselves that are, you 

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know, leading to biological 
cascades and inflammatory 

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cascades that increase 
depressive symptoms or is it the

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absence of the other nutrients? 
That are needed, right? 

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Is it is it the inflammatory 
fats that are in the processed 

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foods that are increasing 
inflammatory conditions and 

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leading to depression? 
Or is it the lack of the 

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polyphenols in the fiber and all
the other essential nutrients 

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that people are not getting when
they're eating mostly a western 

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diet? 
Or is it a combination of the 

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two? 
Like, I know some people that 

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have zero fiber in their diet 
and they seem to be thriving, so

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I don't know if we could parse 
it out to just fiber 

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specifically for instance, but 
likely some combination of both 

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bad stuff coming in and not 
enough of the good stuff coming 

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in. 
That's right. 

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It's always a combination. 
It's always nuanced, right? 

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A 100% So when it comes to 
viewing addiction through the 

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lens of food, I've had several 
people on the podcast always 

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like picking their brain on this
like that seems to be a 

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controversial topic. 
A lot of people think that 

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viewing food as an addictive 
substance is very unhealthy, and

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a lot of people view it as 
rightfully A justifiable, you 

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know, lens and an objective, 
honest lens. 

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I'm assuming you are of the 
latter. 

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I'm actually quite nuanced 
there. 

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I do a lot of my clinical work 
with with people that have 

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eating disorders, and so I'm 
very aware of how certain types 

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of food addiction messaging can 
be harmful. 

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I'm very aware of of how certain
communities have taken the food 

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addiction message. 
And turned it into something 

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that could be a little bit 
extreme or be very pass fail. 

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So for example, I think one of 
the major criticisms of food 

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addiction is people end up 
approaching it from a very 

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rigid. 
Pass, fail, approach and that 

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you're doing really, really 
good. 

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You're counting days and then 
one time you have a little bit 

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of sugar that's hidden in a 
salad dressing and now you know 

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you have to go back to day zero.
There's a lot of 12 step history

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with food addiction and I think 
that's where a lot of the 

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controversy comes from. 
I think people would agree that 

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food addiction exists, but I 
think the disagreement is in the

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conversation of what do we do 
about it? 

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And I I, I, I've done a lot of 
work on this area to understand 

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the actual condition, the 
phenomenon, and to understand 

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the nuances of it. 
I'm still not convinced that I 

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know you know what the best 
course is. 

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I've I've written about it. 
I'd love to talk about treatment

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from ultra processed food 
addiction, but yes, I do believe

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that it's a real thing. 
The literature supports it, but 

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I'm also aware that some of the 
approaches out there. 

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Can actually make people's 
relationship with food worse 

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rather than better. 
Yeah, I can agree with that for 

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sure. 
Do you think the addiction stems

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from more of a psychological or 
physiological phenomenon? 

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Great question. 
And you know there are people 

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that have genetic legacies of 
addiction, right? 

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So maybe one of their parents, 
both their parents grandparents,

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have alcoholism and that tends 
to lend itself to a more 

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biological phenotype. 
And you know, it's been my 

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experience when people have the 
genetic legacy and they have the

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early life adversity, the 
stress, the trauma, all the 

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other risk factors, and they've 
overexposed themselves to the 

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substance. 
They've taught their brain what 

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the substance does and how it 
reduces negative affect. 

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And they've had some efforts to 
try to stop, quit or even 

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moderate that have been 
unsuccessful. 

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You really do cement the 
addiction in place. 

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And so to answer your question, 
I think there are people that 

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might have the genetic legacy 
but less of the other risk 

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factors and they just have the 
biology, the biology of a person

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with a use disorder. 
And then there's people that are

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more circumstantial. 
Maybe they don't come from a 

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genetic legacy of addiction or 
alcoholism, but they have maybe 

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gone through a really tough time
a a divorce. 

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And then the food issues started
to spike and they developed an 

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addiction like relationship with
food. 

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So it's pretty difficult to 
disentangle the biology and the 

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psychology, but I think that 
there are probably some 

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different phenotypes based on 
who has more of a genetic 

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predisposition versus who 
developed it based on stressful 

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life circumstances. 
Totally. 

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It is pretty hard to disentangle
nutrition as an addiction 'cause

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when you look at something like 
methamphetamines or alcohol, 

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which is something that the body
is certainly not required to 

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have, you know you can simply 
cut that out and know that 

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you're moving in the right 
direction. 

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Whereas with food you have to 
consume food, obviously. 

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So the question as to what foods
to consume and what quantities 

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to consume them is always top of
mind for people that struggle 

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with these disorders. 
What is, in your opinion, the 

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right way to frame one's mind 
and thinking around viewing food

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as an addiction if this is 
something that they struggle 

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with? 
Yeah, great. 

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I, I I think that first of all, 
there's been a few studies that 

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looked at whether this concept 
of food addiction is 

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stigmatizing to the general 
public. 

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And and there's been a handful 
of studies that have suggested 

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that when people understand that
sometimes the experience of 

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living in a larger body is based
on neurobiology, based on 

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addiction, like eating rather 
than willpower, it does decrease

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stigma. 
So, so I think addiction as a 

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whole has come a long way in the
last, you know, 80 plus years. 

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People are starting to 
understand that it's not always 

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just a matter of choice that 
people have neurobiology that 

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makes it very difficult for them
to always make the most rational

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decision. 
And I think that with alcohol 

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and other drugs, we've come to a
place where we understand that 

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sometimes or most of the time, 
people need treatment. 

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They need to actually put their 
life on pause. 

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And address their underlying 
issues. 

234
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Be put in a safe environment 
where they can teach their 

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nervous system that they are 
safe and that they can heal, 

236
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,040
right. 
And I, and I do believe that 

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00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,280
with food addiction, just 
thinking about it in a similar 

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00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,680
way can be very, very helpful, 
which is that this food is very 

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00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:55,560
dopaminergic. 
It does have the power to 

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00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,560
override common sense and 
willpower. 

241
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,560
Therefore, people that want to 
stop usually can't. 

242
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,240
And we'll continue to use 
despite negative consequences. 

243
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,200
And with that knowledge, right, 
you start to realize that the 

244
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:15,240
solution is going to actually be
more of a recovery rather than 

245
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,000
some new meal plan, right? 
Or some. 

246
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,280
New fitness regimen. 
I think a lot of people are 

247
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,000
still stuck in believing that 
all food and body issues can be 

248
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,360
addressed with food and body 
solutions, right? 

249
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,560
And I think that the concept of 
food addiction is really saying,

250
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,200
yes, we probably need to look at
your food, we probably need to 

251
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,480
move your body, but we probably 
also need to do some trauma 

252
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,720
work. 
We probably need to teach you 

253
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:45,520
how to breathe differently. 
Take a look at yourself. 

254
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,800
Clean up some of the wreckage of
your past. 

255
00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,560
Maybe focus on relational 
health, quality of life, develop

256
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:56,400
new purpose, meaning direction, 
new sources of dopamine, right. 

257
00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:01,280
So food addiction doesn't 
necessarily mean that you have 

258
00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,680
to put so much focus on the 
food. 

259
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,760
In some cases, yes, you do. 
There are cases where the food 

260
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,800
plan is the key ingredient to 
recovery, but there's a lot of 

261
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,080
other cases where what people 
really need to do. 

262
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,600
Is look at the entire picture of
their life and all these other 

263
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,360
dimensions of Wellness and see 
how they can create a supportive

264
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,840
plan of recovery so that they 
can live with the brain 

265
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,080
chemistry that they have in the 
food environment that we live 

266
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,160
in. 
Yeah, I don't ever want to be, 

267
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:36,480
you know, a negative vibe or 
implication to people's path to 

268
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,440
recovery. 
At the same time, there's all 

269
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,560
this societal pressure that 
people are facing, like for an 

270
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,040
alcoholic for instance, if 
they've become debilitated in 

271
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,920
their ability to function 
because of their addiction to 

272
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,920
alcohol, you know it. 
It's obvious and clear that 

273
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,520
there's a problem that needs to 
be resolved. 

274
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:56,400
They can take steps accordingly.
Do you think this stigma and 

275
00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:01,400
societal pressure has like with 
with regards to the body 

276
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,120
positivity movement for 
instance? 

277
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,280
Do you feel like that is moving 
things in the right direction or

278
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,280
is that kind of giving people a 
scapegoat, so to speak, in order

279
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,240
to just lean into that addiction
and not view it as a negative? 

280
00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,680
Yeah, I think there's there's 
both. 

281
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,680
I do. 
I do believe that the body 

282
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:26,640
positive movement is is 
necessary and essential because 

283
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,880
a lot of times people do 
internalize weight stigma and 

284
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,080
they isolate themselves and they
start to make assumptions that 

285
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,760
they don't fit into the world. 
And they really, really 

286
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,160
internalize some of those 
negative messages. 

287
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,440
And with that from that place, 
it's very hard to actually 

288
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,440
achieve what I like to call 
sustainable recovery. 

289
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:54,280
So I I I do believe that the, 
the journey towards what some 

290
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:59,520
people call fat liberation, body
positivity is the the ticket for

291
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,680
people. 
It is the revolution because 

292
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,320
once people realize that, you 
know. 

293
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,960
You know, waging war on their 
bodies is not going to lead to a

294
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,800
positive outcome once people 
realize that they need to start 

295
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,640
engaging in life now instead of 
waiting for it to happen that we

296
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,160
do get positive outcomes. 
But I I think I I understand 

297
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,760
what you're asking and I want to
offer the flip side to that 

298
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,040
coin. 
I also believe that the food 

299
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,160
industries. 
And the pharmaceutical 

300
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,680
industries have been smart 
enough to identify that message 

301
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,200
as being beneficial to their 
bottom line and have amplified 

302
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:40,880
voices in that community. 
And I do think that, you know, 

303
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:45,520
some people have taken that too 
far and gone to extremes. 

304
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,120
And I know social justice 
movements always sort of need to

305
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:54,200
be extreme and have have really,
you know, use that message to 

306
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,040
say. 
You know stop caring about what 

307
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,480
you eat and just you know, be 
inclusive. 

308
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,720
Eat intuitively and and I I've 
seen that message that I believe

309
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,440
to be positive get spun in a way
that really promotes the the the

310
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:13,760
financial outcomes of the food 
companies and and really doesn't

311
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,119
you know, isn't grounded in 
science as much as it is 

312
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,880
grounded in emotions. 
Yeah, I would agree with that 

313
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,440
for sure. 
But I think there's definitely a

314
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,760
point at which the individual 
has to be objective and honest 

315
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,160
with themselves. 
And if their their blood 

316
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,920
markers, their health markers 
are all starting to decline as a

317
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,360
result of their obesity, like 
you can't really turn a blind 

318
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:35,840
eye to that as well. 
And you have to just start 

319
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,560
accepting responsibility of the 
fact that your actions are 

320
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,360
likely not boding well for your 
overall health, and then to take

321
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,360
actions accordingly. 
Yeah, I definitely agree with 

322
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:46,200
that. 
But I I I think the main message

323
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,960
that has come out of the weight 
stigma research is that. 

324
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,920
If someone is in this very fight
or flight state and they're 

325
00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,240
trying so hard to make something
happen by forcing it through, 

326
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,680
you know, unsustainable dieting 
or exercise, that it can 

327
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,960
actually work against them 
rather than for them. 

328
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,400
And I think that's an important 
piece to remember, that 

329
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,800
everyone's different, and that 
stigma sometimes motivates 

330
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,400
people to change. 
And for other people, it does 

331
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,400
the opposite. 
And I think a good example is 

332
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,840
smoking. 
Like, I'm in California and 

333
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:26,080
smoking is like kind of like 
almost, you know, socially 

334
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,040
unacceptable in in in the area 
that I live in Santa Monica, 

335
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:31,560
right? 
Like you're like you'll get a 

336
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,960
ticket if you smoke a cigarette.
And so, like, there's a level of

337
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,400
shame that comes with smoking 
that has made a lot of people 

338
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,000
stop. 
Right. 

339
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,720
And of course people have 
switched to vapes and whatnot. 

340
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,600
But but I, I, I, I think there's
this positive that comes out of 

341
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,720
some level of what some people 
might call healthy shame. 

342
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,200
But I do think that when people 
feel shame about their bodies, 

343
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,960
sometimes it motivates them to 
go make the changes right to get

344
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:03,240
serious and get to the gym. 
But other times it makes people 

345
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,080
just want to isolate and they 
get worse. 

346
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:10,120
So for those that isolate and 
get worse, what is the the path 

347
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:11,960
to recovery look like for them? 
Like how? 

348
00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:14,320
How does that tangibly manifest 
itself? 

349
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,880
Yeah, I think that what I try to
offer people is to stop being 

350
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:25,560
hyper focused on nutrition and 
exercise for appearance and even

351
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:30,720
for biomarkers and start moving 
into changing your food and your

352
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,560
movement patterns for the sake 
of mental health and and and I 

353
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,400
feel like that's something that 
people can. 

354
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,560
Can can get behind. 
It's not always appealing 

355
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,160
because I know a lot of people 
have appearance related goals 

356
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:49,280
and and I I am in full support 
of what people you know use to 

357
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,240
motivate themselves. 
But when when we pitch, you 

358
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,080
know, let's get moving, let's 
get you out into some sunlight 

359
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,720
so that you can reduce some of 
your depressive symptoms, you 

360
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,800
can start to feel better and 
then have energy to go to the 

361
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,920
grocery store. 
It's a different message than 

362
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,080
let's count your steps because 
we need to burn calories, if 

363
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,280
that makes sense. 
Yeah, no, it totally makes 

364
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:12,440
sense. 
I feel like people have to be in

365
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,200
the right frame of mind in order
to see any momentum with any 

366
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,880
life change that they make and 
it has to be done in a 

367
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,000
sustainable fashion that they 
can continue to build momentum 

368
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,480
and compound on over time. 
So I'm totally in favor of 

369
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,880
making the the mental shift for 
the right reasons. 

370
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,920
First. 
A lot of people have trouble 

371
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,280
with that, man. 
Like they they. 

372
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,040
They'll start a diet, they'll 
start an exercise program, 

373
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,640
they'll start a meditation 
practice, and it seems to falter

374
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,160
within a matter of days. 
What do you think needs to 

375
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,280
happen or to kind of elicit this
staying power? 

376
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,600
Yeah. 
I think a lot of people, 

377
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,600
especially in in the populations
that I work with in in mental 

378
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:58,160
health, have very clear patterns
of cognitive distortions where 

379
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,560
it feels like you're doing 
something, you're on the wagon 

380
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,000
or you're off the wagon, right? 
So you do something for four 

381
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,760
days in a row, and then you miss
it for one day and the mind gets

382
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,800
very negative and says, ah, I 
missed it. 

383
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:16,120
Now I'm like, you know, I'm back
to day zero and I'm gonna miss 

384
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,120
it again until I'm ready to 
start again. 

385
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,680
And and I think that cognitive 
rigidity does prevent a lot of 

386
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:26,040
people from moving forward with 
positive momentum regarding 

387
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:30,240
their lifestyle habits. 
I think it's it's wiser to think

388
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,560
about things in a big picture. 
I try to discourage people from 

389
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,960
always thinking about things in 
a 24 hour a day mode. 

390
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,720
Like think about nutrition over 
your lifespan. 

391
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,760
What are the trends that are 
happening in your life? 

392
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,080
And you know, I like to start 
sessions with people by looking 

393
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,600
at the positives. 
I think especially with people 

394
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,320
that have any history of trauma 
or addictions, the tendency is 

395
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,760
to make negative predictions 
about where it's headed for them

396
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:56,560
to have a negative bias where 
they always point to the things 

397
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,920
that are going wrong. 
If someone were to meditate for 

398
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,000
four days in a row and then 
missed 2 days and then showed up

399
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,000
for session, they might say, 
wow, I'm bummed. 

400
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,400
I I, I I ditched my meditation 
practice. 

401
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,160
But then, you know, you might be
able to point to like, wow, you 

402
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,280
haven't really had a morning 
practice ever. 

403
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,600
And you did it four days out of 
the last six. 

404
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,640
So, you know, let's continue 
that trend. 

405
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,760
I do believe in making small 
changes over time, and anything 

406
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:27,000
that feels past fail is usually 
going to generate negative 

407
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,560
emotions. 
And that's why in mental health 

408
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,400
counseling, we try to use 
guiding principles rather than 

409
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,560
rules. 
I know that the mind loves 

410
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,040
rules. 
The mind needs things that are 

411
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,000
concrete, and I'm all for it. 
OK? 

412
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,480
Like, I believe there are people
that need rules, but when you 

413
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,000
can create guiding principles 
like let's do this to the best 

414
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,200
of our ability, let's do this as
often as we can, let's start 

415
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,320
really small and you just start 
moving in general directions 

416
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,960
over long periods of time. 
It's a formula for long term 

417
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,040
sustainable behavior change. 
But here's the catch. 

418
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,240
Someone comes to see me 
clinically and yeah, we never 

419
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,800
know how long we have with them.
And that's the that's the 

420
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,880
difficult part. 
It's like if I know I'm going to

421
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,000
have someone for six months of 
weekly meetings, you know, we're

422
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,160
going to move at a very 
appropriate pace where it 

423
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,000
doesn't feel like the person can
fail. 

424
00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:18,520
But if there's financial 
limitations and it feels like, 

425
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,120
you know, I'm only going to be 
with this person for three 

426
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:24,640
sessions or for a month, yeah, 
the tendency is to want to move 

427
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,680
quicker. 
Like, let's get this work done. 

428
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,320
Let's go, let's go. 
Let's move fast. 

429
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,480
And sometimes when we move too 
fast, trying to make dietary 

430
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,920
changes and lifestyle changes, 
people do feel like it was too 

431
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,200
much for them and they failed. 
And in my experience as a 

432
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,680
clinician now for over 10 years,
the last thing you want to do is

433
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,920
give someone an experience where
they feel like they failed. 

434
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,480
So you want to give people 
experiences where they feel like

435
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,400
they're gaining momentum and 
they're celebrating all their 

436
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,520
little wins? 
Yeah, I definitely think the 

437
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,320
long game approach is is 
paramount. 

438
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,000
Like anything framed in the 
context of, you know, a hack or 

439
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,800
a quick fix is just not not 
going to be the the life 

440
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,560
changing behavior that needs to 
be implemented. 

441
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,640
Some people are definitely 
moderators while other people 

442
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,480
are are better suited for 
totally and completely 

443
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,120
abstaining from certain foods. 
Is that something that you find 

444
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:15,840
your practice? 
Like there's not one that's 

445
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,160
necessarily right or wrong, It's
just totally individualizing 

446
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,680
that component? 
Yeah, I try to individualize 

447
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,400
everything. 
I really do base my nutrition 

448
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,480
and movement and other lifestyle
recommendations based on what I 

449
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,320
perceive to be someone's, you 
know, psychological profile. 

450
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:35,120
And that sort of tendency for 
extremes is a big part of what 

451
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:38,600
I'm assessing. 
I'm also looking at, you know, 

452
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,320
someone's addiction, like 
neurobiology based on the stuff 

453
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,840
we talked about earlier, genetic
legacy, etcetera. 

454
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:50,440
But I I have realized that there
are some people that think a 

455
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,360
more abstinence based approach 
is better for them that could do

456
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:55,280
better with some kind of 
moderation. 

457
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,520
And there are people that 
believe that they should be 

458
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,680
doing a more moderate and 
inclusive approach that might 

459
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,320
actually do better on 
abstinence. 

460
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,760
So yes, we we're, I'm all about 
listening to our patients and 

461
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,280
figuring out what would be the 
most sustainable solution for 

462
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,960
each individual. 
But there are times when I might

463
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,320
nudge someone to explore an 
alternative. 

464
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,080
Just because someone's mind 
gravitation rotates towards 

465
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,920
something and it feels safe 
doesn't always mean it's the 

466
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,160
best thing for them. 
Gotcha, gotcha. 

467
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,640
When it comes to eating 
disorders, body positivity 

468
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,360
movements, things of that 
nature, the tension more often 

469
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:34,040
than not goes to people over 
consuming and being obese. 

470
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,720
On that end of the spectrum, I'm
assuming you're also seeing a 

471
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,240
client pool that is on the 
complete opposite end of the 

472
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,160
spectrum and struggling with 
under eating, not eating enough.

473
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,160
Having binging, purging 
tendencies, things of that 

474
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,960
nature. 
Yes, yes, that is a big part of 

475
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,200
the work that I do and I love 
that work. 

476
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:58,880
I find it very meaningful and it
it's just super necessary to to 

477
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,720
make that work deep, right. 
It's not just about, you know, a

478
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,000
meal plan or nutrition. 
People that have addictions, 

479
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,040
eating disorders, tendency tend 
to have a soul that's searching 

480
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,080
for some depth. 
And so some of that work can be 

481
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,600
very important recovery and 
healing work in addition to just

482
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,800
looking at the food. 
But for people that have 

483
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,400
restrictive eating disorders, 
the food is super important. 

484
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,840
Like if someone is 
undernourished or they're 

485
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,880
purging and they're not getting 
their nutritional needs met, 

486
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,520
they're not getting enough 
calories, they're not getting 

487
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,680
enough macros, they're not 
getting balance across the food 

488
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,240
groups, they're not getting 
micros. 

489
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,160
It's very difficult to actually 
recover without getting sound 

490
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,120
nutrition. 
And so, yeah, there are times 

491
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:50,040
with people on the under eating 
spectrum or with the lower BM is

492
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,320
where nutrition becomes even 
more important and part of the 

493
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,800
work becomes focused on 
sometimes exposing themselves to

494
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:00,840
fear foods. 
So if there's foods that they've

495
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,040
avoided and they've put a lot of
charge on, sometimes the 

496
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,800
treatment includes eating those 
foods. 

497
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,440
And sometimes I will eat those 
foods with my clients and 

498
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,680
patients to show them that it 
can be done and that, you know, 

499
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,360
some of these fears are just 
magnified, right. 

500
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:19,040
Some of them are just magnified 
emotions that live in our brain 

501
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,720
and that we can work through 
them together. 

502
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,320
Do you find that this is 
obviously going to be very 

503
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,080
individualized, but as a whole? 
Is it more so that these people 

504
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,880
are struggling with certain 
types of foods that they're 

505
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,000
avoiding and have the stigma 
towards or is just the quantity 

506
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,480
of the foods great question when
this word restriction gets 

507
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,560
thrown around a lot, You know, 
and I think you've probably 

508
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,840
noticed that there's a lot of 
anti diet, non diet energy on 

509
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:50,000
the Internet and anytime someone
is trying to promote health, it 

510
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,320
seems like they can be accused 
of, you know, promoting 

511
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:53,720
restriction. 
Right. 

512
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,520
So I like to define the word 
restriction. 

513
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,960
I think that's important in, in 
science we sometimes use the 

514
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:03,960
phrase dietary restraint or 
restrained eating, right. 

515
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,720
And so it's a great question you
asked what is restrained eating?

516
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,000
And it's going to be different 
from person to person. 

517
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,880
There are some people that are 
just restricting or restraining 

518
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,480
calories and they have a long 
history of calorie counting and 

519
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,280
maybe they've used My Fitness 
Pal and they, they have a magic 

520
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:23,880
number, right? 
They believe that they should 

521
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,880
eat under 1200 calories a day. 
And we see that number all the 

522
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,400
time, probably because of some 
of the science there and and 

523
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,760
some of the apps, etcetera. 
But there's other people that 

524
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,280
will restrain particular macros,
right? 

525
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,440
We see people and and I know, I 
know especially based on the 

526
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:46,000
work that you do, that there is 
a wide range of macro nutrient 

527
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,880
based approaches that can work 
for nutrition. 

528
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,440
I've seen people do well, you 
know, on protein and fat, and I 

529
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:58,760
I know that that's a big part of
what you discuss, but with 

530
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,120
someone has an eating disorder 
and they've really developed 

531
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,920
some imbalance in brain 
chemistry from imbalance eating.

532
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,600
The solution, usually, not 
always, usually does necessitate

533
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,280
having a balance between 
carbohydrates, protein, and fat.

534
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,480
I will say that there's been a 
couple studies in the last few 

535
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,760
years that have challenged that.
There was actually a few case 

536
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:27,560
reports of people with anorexia 
nervosa getting better on 

537
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,680
ketogenic diets, and when I saw 
that I was like super interested

538
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,720
in in that science and so I have
a very open mind here. 

539
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,280
But in general, traditional or 
conventional eating disorder 

540
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,080
treatment has suggested that 
when people have very imbalanced

541
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,880
macros that it makes it very 
hard for them to recover. 

542
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,840
So sometimes people will be 
plant based and very you know, 

543
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,440
avoidant of protein. 
We see people that still have 

544
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,360
this legacy of low fat, non fat 
dieting that comes from decades 

545
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,040
ago. 
And then you know of course we 

546
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,160
have a lot of people that avoid 
carbohydrates. 

547
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,600
So we've got calorie 
restriction, macro restriction 

548
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,240
and then we've got food group 
restriction. 

549
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,160
Maybe people have a particular 
belief about a food group, for 

550
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,880
example, dairy. 
Some people think dairy is just 

551
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,200
not meant for human consumption 
and avoid it. 

552
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,200
For some people, dairy is highly
inflammatory. 

553
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,040
But other people have dairy, you
know, organic, high quality 

554
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,880
dairy several times a day. 
And it's one of the most, you 

555
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,360
know, beneficial things for 
their health, including mental 

556
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,000
health, particularly some forms 
of fermented dairy. 

557
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,760
But yeah, some people will 
restrict food groups. 

558
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,760
And then the last piece, and 
this is where there's the most 

559
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,960
controversy is when you think 
about restraining based on the 

560
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,800
quality of the food. 
So organic versus non organic. 

561
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,800
And then of course, you know, 
Whole Foods are minimally 

562
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,600
processed foods compared to 
ultra processed foods. 

563
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,400
And there's a lot of contention 
here and disagreement and debate

564
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,400
because there's a new term in 
the eating disorder community, 

565
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,440
which is orthorexia nervosa, 
where, you know, if someone is 

566
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,120
really concerned about the 
quality of the food rather than 

567
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,760
the quantity, you know, it can 
be perceived by others as a 

568
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,480
unhealthy obsession. 
And, you know, I think people 

569
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,520
are over using that term. 
I think especially if there's 

570
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,320
mental health needs or someone's
on a fitness regimen, right, if 

571
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,000
they have certain types of 
goals, being concerned about the

572
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,640
quality of the food is super 
important. 

573
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,720
But we live in an era where 
people are being shamed for 

574
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,200
talking about, you know, food 
processing and the quality of 

575
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,520
food, at least in the dietitian 
community, because it it does 

576
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,520
come across as promoting diet, 
culture, orthorexia nervosa. 

577
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,320
So I'm working really hard to be
that middle ground voice to be 

578
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,920
able to tell people that, you 
know what, If you are concerned 

579
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,200
about the quality of food and 
you're doing it for the purposes

580
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,320
of improving your mental health,
then there should be some 

581
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:10,080
understanding in a lane that 
feels safe for that person. 

582
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,720
So yeah, there's a lot of ways 
that people restrain their 

583
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,800
eating. 
Some people restrain it based on

584
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,880
time. 
You know, obviously, you know, 

585
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,240
there are benefits to time 
restricted feeding. 

586
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,920
But yeah, those of us that work 
with eating disorders, we see 

587
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,920
the negatives of extreme 
approaches. 

588
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,000
We see the negatives of dieting 
that most people don't get to 

589
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,760
see. 
So any any dietitians that do 

590
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,640
clinical work with eating 
disorders, you know we tend to 

591
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,880
see some of the the negative 
outcomes more than the positive 

592
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,640
outcomes. 
So I think some of us have a lot

593
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,880
of bias towards extreme 
approaches. 

594
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,800
But I know that these 
approaches, you know fasting 

595
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,600
keto, I know that they work for 
a lot of people and I know that 

596
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,400
they have incredible mental 
health benefits for a lot of 

597
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,280
people. 
And this is the conundrum we're 

598
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,280
in. 
It's like eating disorders are 

599
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,800
life threatening and they're 
super important and they are 

600
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,200
part of mental health. 
But mental health is a much 

601
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,200
broader field, right? 
And so people are caught in this

602
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,880
conundrum of, like, I'm gonna 
stick with the eating disorder 

603
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,320
message or I'm gonna move into 
this broader mental health 

604
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,200
message. 
And I think that the eating 

605
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,200
disorder message is super 
important but it also can be 

606
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,480
like a pigeonhole because those 
people, those of us that work 

607
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,280
with eating disorders, you're 
very cautious about what you 

608
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,200
say. 
You know you don't want to be 

609
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,880
triggering, you don't want to 
come across as food negative. 

610
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,680
But in the mental health 
literature the science is very, 

611
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,640
very clear. 
You know if someone has 

612
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,800
depression, anxiety, trauma, 
they do better eating less ultra

613
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,760
processed foods period. 
So, so let me just pose one 

614
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:45,920
question, I don't have the 
answer. 

615
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,920
What if someone has depression 
that's not getting better from 

616
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,320
taking medications and they need
an anti-inflammatory diet, and 

617
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,320
they also have an eating 
disorder that's very 

618
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,680
restrictive, right? 
What do we do with them, right? 

619
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,400
How do you pick the right 
message to be inclusive and not 

620
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,280
punitive around food, but also 
move them into eating more 

621
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,840
intentionally and deliberately 
for their mental health? 

622
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:12,480
And this is the work that I'm 
trying to do is like, what about

623
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,600
when people have multiple mental
health diagnosis and they 

624
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,880
respond differently to different
nutrition messages? 

625
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,840
How do we create a lane for them
that feels safe? 

626
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:26,719
Honors their psychological 
processes around food, honors 

627
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:32,520
their body image, but also has a
biologically based intervention 

628
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:33,920
for their gut and for their 
brain. 

629
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,600
It is very tricky, man. 
Like I you know, I used to 

630
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,120
struggle with eating disorder 
myself. 

631
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,080
After my first few competitions,
and for me, the only thing that 

632
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:47,880
really allowed me any you know, 
semblance of recovery was 

633
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,800
adopting A ketogenic diet, 
removing carbohydrates as a 

634
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,920
macronutrient group that I 
included, and then just doubling

635
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,120
down on that. 
And I feel like a lot of clients

636
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,280
that I've worked with have 
experienced the same. 

637
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,880
A lot of them are more so 
abstainers than moderators, but 

638
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,000
I feel like there's for me, 
there's been a lot of, like I've

639
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,160
noticed in myself and my client 
pool that. 

640
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,440
When it comes to eating 
disorders and food addiction, so

641
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,920
much of it stems from some sense
of shame around the foods 

642
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,320
they're consuming. 
And if I can strip that shame 

643
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:25,120
away by, you know, educating 
them on the biological benefits 

644
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,480
of a properly implemented, well 
formulated ketogenic diet, that 

645
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:32,360
is easier for them to embrace. 
And then they don't have to feel

646
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,120
guilty or shameful for eating 
foods that are not in line with 

647
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,040
that. 
Then they can eat more of those 

648
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,600
quality foods, making sure 
they're. 

649
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,240
Nourished properly and then then
they experience all the physical

650
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:45,040
benefits that come from that, 
which bodes well for them 

651
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,400
staying motivated to stay the 
course and make it a lifestyle. 

652
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,760
Now, I certainly don't want to 
shame anybody when it comes to 

653
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,640
foods, and as far as improving 
overall food quality, I think 

654
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,240
anybody should try to, you know,
consume the highest quality 

655
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:02,360
foods they can reasonably afford
and do so for the right reasons.

656
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,160
I don't want to shame anybody in
any direction. 

657
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:11,160
But there's just so much nuance 
to the topic of how one should 

658
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,040
think about food. 
And like, we're we're 

659
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,760
interesting, man. 
Like, I don't know why we as a 

660
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,600
species have so much confusion 
around this. 

661
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,680
I don't know if it's because of 
societal pressures, because of 

662
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,760
upbringing. 
But you look at any other 

663
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,000
species in the wild, and these 
are all just questions that 

664
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,120
aren't even in the repertoire. 
You look at humans and it's like

665
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,640
we don't have a clue what to eat
or how much to eat. 

666
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,120
Wow, I'm so glad you shared your
personal story. 

667
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,880
I think it's just so important, 
you know, that that we have 

668
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,680
conversations like this and 
embrace open mindedness and it 

669
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,720
really just points to the fact 
that everyone is different. 

670
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:47,800
You know, there's a there's 
probably an eating disorder 

671
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,000
clinic out there that would say 
that that what you did could 

672
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,920
never, could never work. 
And here you are saying that's 

673
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,840
the only thing that worked, 
right? 

674
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,240
And so I just want to honor that
and say we need to celebrate 

675
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,320
diversity in the nutrition space
and celebrate the fact that 

676
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,360
there aren't singular approaches
and that nutrition is a moving 

677
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,120
target and what works for 
someone at one stage in their 

678
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,680
life might change over time. 
I think that's an important 

679
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,520
message that listeners need to 
get as well is that you might 

680
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,040
find something that works really
well now and that could change 

681
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,520
over the course of the next few 
years as your life circumstances

682
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,040
change. 
And yeah, we need to really just

683
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,320
celebrate the unknowns and the 
uncertainty. 

684
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,000
And I think to answer your 
question, why is nutrition 

685
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,200
filled with so much contention 
and debate? 

686
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,600
Well, one is because there's a 
lot of economic issues at hand, 

687
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,120
right? 
A lot of food marketing, a lot 

688
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,080
of food companies are 
controlling narratives around 

689
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,040
food and really trying to 
maximize their profit. 

690
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:55,000
And and one of the things I've 
noticed is that when you know 

691
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,400
tyrants right, when the big 
forces, the elites right the the

692
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,200
powers that be want to maintain 
their power structure. 

693
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,240
One of the best ways to do that 
is to get the population just 

694
00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:09,480
fighting amongst themselves. 
And I think there's a benefit 

695
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,040
for food companies and 
pharmaceutical companies to have

696
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,560
us all here on the Internet 
fighting about what the best 

697
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,400
diet is saying. 
This is diet culture, this is 

698
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,320
non diet, You should do this, 
you should do that. 

699
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,720
And then you know the tool in 
which that vehicle drives is 

700
00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:31,160
through emotions, right? 
So nutrition is supercharged 

701
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,800
because it's it's it's a mesh 
with other social justice issues

702
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,280
we talked about, you know, 
right, weight, stigma. 

703
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,320
And then of course we have 
culture and socio, economic 

704
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,680
status. 
There's so many facets to 

705
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,440
nutrition that goes above and 
beyond just the biology, right? 

706
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,360
We think about neuroscience and 
economics and psychology and 

707
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,800
marketing and there's so much 
there that leaves room for 

708
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,520
people to disagree and debate. 
And I think that the machine 

709
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:00,960
likes it when we disagree and 
debate. 

710
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,160
And I think we need to have more
conversations like this where 

711
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,640
we're looking for areas of 
convergence and having more 

712
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,520
questions than actually answers.
And the last piece there that 

713
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,440
I'll add is that everyone's an 
eater, right. 

714
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,640
So everyone seems to have an 
opinion, which makes things more

715
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,280
difficult when you think about 
the sciences. 

716
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,880
You know, if you were to think 
about more like obscure science 

717
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:30,000
about physics or you know, 
orthopaedics, right, You have 

718
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,000
these experts and these are the 
people that did their training 

719
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,400
and and do this work. 
Whereas in nutrition we all eat,

720
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,800
we all have bodies. 
So there's room for a lot 

721
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,080
broader range of expertise. 
And one of the most fascinating 

722
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,560
things about nutrition is when 
you look at some of the bigger 

723
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,520
influencers in the nutrition 
space, the people that have 

724
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,000
written the the biggest books 
and have the biggest following, 

725
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,200
they're usually not doctors or 
dietitians. 

726
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,760
They're usually people that have
just found their own little 

727
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,760
passionate lane about health and
have a really good message to 

728
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,200
share and are able to share it 
with the world in a way that 

729
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,400
lands on people and gets 
people's attention. 

730
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,600
Yeah, I think that is something 
we can all get behind. 

731
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,240
Like everyone's got their own 
story. 

732
00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:15,200
People are going to resonate 
with that story based off of 

733
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,880
their own background. 
So the more we can have healthy 

734
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,600
discourse and just open minded 
discussions is is going to be 

735
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,480
the key. 
I feel like trying to force 

736
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,520
anybody into this, you know, I'm
too square peg into a round hole

737
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:28,680
scenario when it comes to 
nutrition. 

738
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,480
It's just bad, bad juju all the 
way around. 

739
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,240
So having these open 
conversations with people that 

740
00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:36,800
disagree, but doing so in a 
healthy manner is absolutely 

741
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:38,600
paramount. 
So I completely agree with you 

742
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,080
there. 
Yeah. 

743
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,320
And I I would add to that that 
when when practitioners have 

744
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,480
like a single thing that they do
and it's like this, this is my 

745
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,800
one philosophy right, that 
that's actually easier on the 

746
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,520
practitioner. 
Right. 

747
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,400
To just have a single a single 
thing right versus like if you 

748
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,640
have multiple modalities right 
and have to think about each 

749
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,040
individual and customize it, 
it's more work. 

750
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,000
So that's another reason why a 
lot of people gravitate towards 

751
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,600
like this is my thing. 
Anyone who comes to me just gets

752
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,840
this one thing. 
We definitely need more people 

753
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,160
that are able to say, you know 
what, I have a lot of tools in 

754
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,000
my tool kit. 
I'm multimodal and I'm willing 

755
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,640
to learn more to meet people 
where they're at and meet their 

756
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,520
needs. 
I think that's also super 

757
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,640
important for our field moving 
forward. 

758
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,360
Completely agree. 
What about the difference 

759
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,280
between the sexes? 
So when it comes to eating 

760
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,440
disorders, often times people's 
minds go to you know how that 

761
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,840
impacts the female demographic 
that tends to be in the 

762
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,560
limelight more. 
But this is quite often the case

763
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,440
in the male demographic as well.
It just often times isn't 

764
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,960
getting spoken of as frequently.
Why is that and what are some 

765
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:49,480
common denominators and 
differences there? 

766
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,520
Yeah, I think it it points to 
the important conversation about

767
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,000
the difference between eating 
disorders being genetically. 

768
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,680
Influenced right from risk 
factors. 

769
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:07,040
In the germ lines, there is data
to show that you know it. 

770
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:12,240
It does pass through generations
for sure versus eating disorders

771
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:14,600
as a socially constructed 
phenomenon. 

772
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,760
I do think that a lot of people 
still assume that eating 

773
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,800
disorders are just based on body
image concerns. 

774
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,200
And you know that they're 
socially constructed and that 

775
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,240
they're a result of social 
media. 

776
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,520
But interestingly, when you look
at the data, when you look at 

777
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,840
like the, you know, incidence 
and prevalence of eating 

778
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,680
disorders over time and across 
the world, it it, it, it's 

779
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,480
actually quite consistent. 
You know, there are places in 

780
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,880
the world where they don't have 
social media the way we do here,

781
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,880
that also have, you know, 
restrictive eating disorders. 

782
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,440
The, the incidence and 
prevalence of certain types of 

783
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:59,720
eating disorders has remained 
constant despite all of these 

784
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,600
pressures to be thin and some of
the exposure to media that 

785
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,000
people get. 
So I think that in terms of the 

786
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,120
social construction of eating 
disorders, there's generally 

787
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:18,120
been more pressure around women 
to, you know. 

788
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,120
Be thin or be cut, whatever it 
is. 

789
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,280
I think traditionally there was 
a lot of, you know, eating 

790
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,080
disorders that centered around 
thinness. 

791
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:35,040
And now in more recent years we 
have a a rise in, you know, 

792
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:40,440
muscle dysmorphic disorder and 
not necessarily thinness but 

793
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:45,480
leanness and muscularity. 
And so that's also really an 

794
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,840
important trend that's changing.
And so, yeah, the the. 

795
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,120
The assumption has always been 
that women are interested in 

796
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,880
thinness and that men are 
interested in muscularity, but 

797
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,880
we know that that is absolutely 
not true, especially now we have

798
00:44:00,240 --> 00:44:05,360
a lot of men in the relentless 
pursuit of thinness and a lot of

799
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,040
women that are now in the 
pursuit of muscularity. 

800
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,200
But I I think the the best 
answer to your question is that 

801
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,680
I think a lot more men have 
disordered eating than society 

802
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,440
would like to believe. 
But they're just less inclined 

803
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,920
to seek help because of the 
shame around it. 

804
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,800
You know, I'm a male eating 
disorder professional. 

805
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,800
And, you know, I did assume that
my practice would be filled with

806
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,040
men because I would assume that 
men would might even feel safer.

807
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,160
But it turns out that, yeah, I 
still don't see as many men with

808
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,640
eating disorders seeking help. 
And I do think that there are 

809
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:44,280
barriers, psychological barriers
for for certain people to admit 

810
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,440
certain behaviors and to move 
through it. 

811
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,760
And I also think that. 
Men tend to seek help less in 

812
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,360
general, at least in the realm 
of mental health. 

813
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:54,320
Yeah, I agree. 
It's unfortunate. 

814
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,320
I mean, I feel like there is 
like, I don't want to contribute

815
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,640
to this. 
I don't know. 

816
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,680
I don't even know what it would 
be called this snowflake 

817
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,760
phenomenon, which everybody, you
know, what was me, Cry me a 

818
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,600
river, 'cause I feel like people
need to just own it in life and 

819
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,680
and, you know, take, take 
responsibility and get after it.

820
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,640
But that said, to not come 
across too harsh, like you have 

821
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,520
to be honest, objective. 
Like if there's something in 

822
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,280
your life that you're struggling
with, be honest with yourself 

823
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,640
about that. 
Seek out help, fix and move 

824
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,080
forward. 
You know, like be there doesn't 

825
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,320
need to be this shame associated
with, like, just simply be 

826
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,960
honest with yourself and then 
take steps to correct course. 

827
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,600
Like that's That is the path to 
everything in life. 

828
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:36,800
I agree. 
But if you looked at your case, 

829
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,000
for example if when you were 
struggling with some disordered 

830
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,440
eating behaviors. 
You know, if if you would have 

831
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,840
sought out like a professional, 
you would have not gotten the 

832
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,760
treatment that you found for 
yourself, right. 

833
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:55,560
And so there is a lot of 
distrust about mental health 

834
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,400
treatment and distrust about 
eating disorder treatment. 

835
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,280
I think a lot of people are very
resistant to eating disorder 

836
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,320
treatment because a lot of 
people assume and and they're 

837
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,120
right in this assumption, is 
that the treatment will be just 

838
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,120
about. 
Eating a lot of ultra processed 

839
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:18,160
foods that are, you know super 
undesirable by the person and 

840
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,360
and and that's just an area 
where I think there is a little 

841
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,720
bit of change happening in the 
eating disorder field. 

842
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:26,920
I think with the traditional 
case of anorexia nervosa and 

843
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,320
bulimia nervosa, if the person 
was very fearful of certain 

844
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,640
foods and they had imbalanced 
eating, teaching them how to be 

845
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:38,520
able to eat like a piece of 
pizza or have, you know, some 

846
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,680
candy with as a snack was 
actually a really important part

847
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,720
of treatment. 
But now we're seeing more and 

848
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:49,080
more people that that model 
isn't probably the best fit for.

849
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,440
And, you know, this could be 
people with binge eating 

850
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,720
disorder or people with bulimia 
nervosa or even anorexia. 

851
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,880
And so, yeah, there's a lot of 
conversation happening in the 

852
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:03,800
eating disorder world about what
would be, you know, best 

853
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,720
practices for nutrition and how 
that can change, you know, from 

854
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:10,840
person to person. 
But keep in mind that when 

855
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,240
people go to a treatment center 
like an eating disorder 

856
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:17,400
residential, it's super hard to.
To individualize treatment 

857
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,760
there, it's like every there's 
20 people there and everyone 

858
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,600
sort of gets similar food. 
It's tough on dietitians to be 

859
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,720
able to say, all right, this 
person's on a keto, this 

860
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:30,120
person's on a low exposure meal 
plan, this person's on a lot of,

861
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,880
you know, fear foods, right? 
This person's on a lot of extra 

862
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,640
calories, 'cause they have, you 
know, metabolic issues. 

863
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,360
This person's drinking booze, 
like it's hard to tailor 

864
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,400
treatment. 
So you end up getting a lot of 

865
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,000
treatment that's scaled. 
Right. 

866
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,560
A lot of food philosophies that 
are just scaled across the 

867
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,240
entire population. 
But there are people that are 

868
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:53,520
doing really good eating 
disorder work in the outpatient 

869
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,560
level and individualizing care 
and asking more questions and 

870
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,720
figuring out how do we use 
nutrition and lifestyle medicine

871
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,440
to help people move into a next 
chapter with grace and one that 

872
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,840
will be sustainable over time. 
I don't know much about these 

873
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,600
clinics. 
I've I've interacted with people

874
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,560
that have gone to them, that 
have been forced to go to them, 

875
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,520
that have been prompted by the 
family to go through them. 

876
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:19,000
And it definitely seems like 
many of them take a very you 

877
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,080
know, one size all approach 
which I can see being incredibly

878
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,280
detrimental to the the patient 
that's going there. 

879
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,160
Is there a lot of these clinics?
Like, can people vet these out 

880
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,240
and do some research and figure 
out which one makes the most 

881
00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:34,840
sense for them as this? 
Like like how does that go about

882
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:36,520
even finding these clinics? 
Yeah. 

883
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,560
No, there there's a lot of 
eating disorder treatment 

884
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:47,320
centers and there's definitely. 
Some places that have more of an

885
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:52,200
open mind about nutrition and 
individualizing care than 

886
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,080
others, you know, there's been a
few places in the last few years

887
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,520
that have said, you know what, 
we actually do honor food 

888
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,080
addiction. 
We have a track for people with 

889
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,480
food addiction. 
We think that, you know, 

890
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,720
individualizing the nutrition 
program is going to be critical 

891
00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:11,440
for certain people's success. 
But generally speaking. 

892
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,320
The eating disorder field has 
had a lot of gatekeeping and a 

893
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,600
lot of cancel culture. 
So there's been this ethos in 

894
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:24,680
the field of like, you know, you
do it our way with all foods fit

895
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:30,240
intuitive eating or you're not 
welcome here And and and that 

896
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:33,960
energy has been challenged in 
recent years because you know, 

897
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,960
there's basically. 
You know, a collection of, you 

898
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,400
know, a conglomerate of of 
treatment centers that are 

899
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,760
saying this is, this is what 
what we believe eating disorders

900
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,600
are and this is how we believe 
they should be treated. 

901
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:52,240
And anything that isn't this is 
dangerous, right? 

902
00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:55,960
So, for example, if an eating 
disorder treatment center helps 

903
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,680
people lose weight, they will be
cancelled. 

904
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:01,640
Period. 
You know what I mean? 

905
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,280
And like they they like, they 
will go the extra mile to make 

906
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,120
sure that they don't get 
referrals. 

907
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,600
And it's a really dangerous, 
like it's an unsafe community 

908
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,400
because there are a lot of 
people that have binge eating 

909
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,800
disorder that want to lose 
weight, you know, and they go 

910
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,680
into eating disorder treatment 
and they're told that they're 

911
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,320
that they won't, they won't be 
supported in that here. 

912
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,680
And then they never want to go 
back to treatment again, you 

913
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,040
know, So it's a really touchy 
space right now. 

914
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,960
And, you know, I've been 
speaking out about it. 

915
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,280
You know, I'm obviously speaking
out about it now. 

916
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,640
But when I speak out about these
issues, you know, people come to

917
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,840
me and they say, wow, thank you,
Doctor Wiz, for having the 

918
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,360
courage to speak about some of 
these issues because it's been 

919
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:44,680
on my mind and I'm so afraid to 
say anything, right. 

920
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:49,080
Because it just has such a 
strong cancel culture vibe these

921
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:50,880
days. 
Yeah, that's incredibly 

922
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,240
unfortunate. 
I I feel like that lack of 

923
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:58,640
individualized care and nuance 
at these structured clinics is 

924
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,600
likely the reason there's been 
this, you know, massive uptick 

925
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:07,400
in outpatient care centers. 
People that are creating content

926
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,920
around this specifically, which 
is great to see because then it 

927
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,480
caters more towards the 
individual with those that you 

928
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,720
know resonate with whatever the 
messaging is, which is what 

929
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,400
you're doing a lot of right now.
Like you just came out with an 

930
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,800
app as well, right? 
I sure did, and the whole point 

931
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,080
of the Wise Mind Nutrition app 
was to. 

932
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:29,000
Create some middle ground 
energy, right, to create a space

933
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,720
for people to be deliberate and 
intentional about their food, 

934
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:37,680
but have it be very non diet and
eating disorder informed and 

935
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,680
therefore be very safe for 
certain people. 

936
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,240
And just to give you a little 
more context there, there's a 

937
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:46,720
lot of apps that focus on 
calories and macros and do the 

938
00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:49,840
math and I think those apps are 
great. 

939
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:51,960
They're some of the most 
successful apps that have ever 

940
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,960
existed on the app marketplace. 
I tried to create an app that 

941
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,080
might be a little bit different 
in the sense that we focus more 

942
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,320
on the qualitative aspects of 
eating rather than the 

943
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,320
quantitative aspects. 
So it isn't so much about how 

944
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,520
much did you eat, it's more 
about what food groups did you 

945
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:11,640
eat, Checking in with hunger, 
checking in with fullness. 

946
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:15,880
It discourages, you know, math 
centric approaches and really 

947
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:20,600
gets people to focus on 
emotional responses to food. 

948
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,200
The quality of the food they 
eat, the consistency with which 

949
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,960
they eat, the distribution of 
their food groups and, you know,

950
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,240
allows people to set their own 
intentions that are not focused 

951
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:34,320
on weight per SE. 
They're more focused on 

952
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,600
relational health and quality of
sleep. 

953
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:42,120
And so it is a app that helps 
people use nutrition and 

954
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:45,680
lifestyle medicine. 
To move into their next chapter,

955
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:51,360
but it doesn't have some of the 
nutrition and lifestyle energy 

956
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,440
that could be triggering to some
people. 

957
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,240
So it it's it's it's not an 
eating disorder specific app, 

958
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:04,080
but it has a lot of my eating 
disorder background in mind in 

959
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,240
the creation of it so that we 
know that someone who wants to 

960
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:11,320
walk this path will leave here. 
Better off than when they 

961
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,400
started in, in terms of like 
having a better relationship 

962
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,240
with food. 
So people are basically logging 

963
00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:20,880
what they're eating, but they're
focused more so on how that 

964
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:24,400
makes them feel as opposed to 
what the macronutrient and 

965
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,520
caloric breakdown is. 
Yeah, I mean, the journaling is 

966
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,360
quite optional, but you know. 
I've set it up to where 

967
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,800
clinicians can can connect to 
their providers. 

968
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,840
So for example, in my practice 
I've got most of my clients 

969
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,080
logging using the Wise Mind 
Nutrition app and I can, you 

970
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,160
know, check what they're doing 
and look at their nightly 

971
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:44,840
reviews. 
And a nightly review is when you

972
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:46,320
kind of reflect back on your 
day. 

973
00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:48,920
You know, a lot of times people 
come to see someone like me once

974
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,160
a week, but if they do their own
work on a day-to-day basis, 

975
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:53,360
they're going to, they're going 
to grow. 

976
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,560
So the food log is one part of 
the app. 

977
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,920
And it's connect friendly, which
means not only practitioners and

978
00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:03,680
providers can follow their 
clients, but people can follow 

979
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,800
their friends or other people in
the community. 

980
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,120
I have a couple people following
me, so I'm sharing some 

981
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,600
inspiration with, you know. 
Eating food for mood and brain 

982
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,360
health, right? 
Getting the right kind of fats, 

983
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,920
making sure there's adequate 
protein and colors. 

984
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,520
I'm big on colors as well, but 
the other prong to the app is 

985
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,360
the program. 
So there are a series of videos,

986
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:31,800
assignments, reflections, and 
additional reading links videos.

987
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,200
It's a very robust program for 
someone that wants to learn 

988
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,200
about eating for gut health and 
eating for mental health. 

989
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,600
So it really is designed to be 
an anti-inflammatory approach to

990
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:48,240
eating that focuses on changing 
the way we eat without being 

991
00:54:48,240 --> 00:54:52,880
overly taxing to our mind. 
So it's basically improving your

992
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,800
brain without taxing your mind. 
So yeah, it's it's designed for 

993
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,680
people that have depression, 
anxiety, trauma, ADHD, 

994
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,680
addictions that, you know, might
not be at the highest level of 

995
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,200
motivation. 
For change and and need to take 

996
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,560
little steps toward making those
changes. 

997
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:14,080
You know one little baby carrot 
at a time to move into a 

998
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:19,160
different chapter and it's a 
it's an empowerment program and 

999
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,120
it's a it's a recovery journey. 
It's a healing journey. 

1000
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,400
It's not just nutrition and 
exercise. 

1001
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,680
There's breathing and meditation
and cooking classes. 

1002
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:31,080
It's more about bringing joy 
back into food and helping 

1003
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,360
people make peace in the body 
that they live in while also 

1004
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,600
staying. 
Intentional about what they eat.

1005
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:39,560
I love it, man. 
I feel like the reflection 

1006
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,480
component is key. 
I've recently started journaling

1007
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,280
as a daily morning practice and 
the way I've got my journal 

1008
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,640
structures, I reflect on the day
prior and at the end of the 

1009
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,120
week, I reflect on the week and 
then what I have coming up for 

1010
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,920
the the coming week. 
And we we as a species, as a 

1011
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,440
society, we've gotten so 
inundated with just over 

1012
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,680
sensationalized news. 
You know what's coming Like 

1013
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,440
nobody lives in the present 
moment anymore, and very few 

1014
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:11,240
people reflect on the past. 
And making a, you know, 

1015
00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:16,200
legitimate effort to actually 
reflect on what you've done, 

1016
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,560
what the outcome of that was and
how it will shape your future is

1017
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:24,120
so, so profound. 
So anything that encourages 

1018
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:28,440
people to be reflective in a 
proactive way for what's coming 

1019
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,040
is, I think, absolutely key. 
Yeah. 

1020
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:33,000
And if you think about it, what 
are, what are we really doing? 

1021
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,720
We're mining the data, right? 
We live in an era where big tech

1022
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:41,160
companies are are winning 
because they have not only 

1023
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,120
access to the best data, but 
they know how to mine the data, 

1024
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:45,680
they know how to build models, 
right? 

1025
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,960
So we have a little saying and 
you know, now I'm in the tech 

1026
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,960
world because I, I built an app.
Whoever has the best data wins 

1027
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:56,080
right in the big picture. 
And like each of us, we all have

1028
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:59,480
a lot of data. 
About our lives and our 

1029
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,760
emotional States and our our 
choices and our behaviors and 

1030
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,320
the consequences. 
If every single day you just 

1031
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:09,360
pause for a few minutes and take
a look back through your 

1032
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,320
experience and see, wow, what 
can I learn from that? 

1033
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,800
How can I use this to make 
better predictions of the future

1034
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:19,920
and and and and model my next 
self, right. 

1035
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,280
And you do that on a daily basis
and you do that then on a weekly

1036
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:25,280
basis and you do it on a monthly
basis. 

1037
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,200
You're going to grow. 
You're going to become a better 

1038
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,880
person. 
And so I really want to, yeah, 

1039
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,200
emphasize what you said. 
It's so important for us to 

1040
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,480
pause, be in the moment, take a 
look back, and then after 

1041
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,160
looking back, you want to then 
look forward a 100% agree man. 

1042
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,440
Well Doctor Wiss, it's been an 
absolute pleasure learning from 

1043
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:44,880
you today. 
Where do people go to find out 

1044
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:46,440
more about you? 
Learn more about the app? 

1045
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,160
Dive deeper into your world. 
Absolutely. 

1046
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,800
The website is wise my 
nutrition.com and I've got about

1047
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,000
80 or so blogs on there. 
They're just short blogs at the 

1048
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,120
intersection of nutrition and 
mental health. 

1049
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:03,120
The app is called Wise My 
Nutrition and it's it's in the 

1050
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:05,400
Apple App store. 
The Android version is like 

1051
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,120
almost done. 
So by the time the this is 

1052
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,840
released, I'm sure it'll be 
there and I'm on social media on

1053
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:15,120
Tiktok Wise under score, Mine 
under score, Nutrition Wise My 

1054
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:19,640
nutrition Instagram. 
YouTube and then I have a 

1055
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,640
personal Instagram at Doctor 
David Wiss where I share a wider

1056
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:27,640
range of things, sometimes posts
about my family and other things

1057
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,240
like that. 
But I love connecting with 

1058
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,240
people on social media. 
I'd love to hear from people 

1059
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:36,120
that are interested in this 
intersection of nutrition and 

1060
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,160
mental health. 
And then my clinical practice is

1061
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:42,480
nutrition in recovery. 
So that's nutrition in 

1062
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:46,240
recovery.com. 
So yeah, I've got a lot of ways 

1063
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:50,360
to be contacted and I hope to 
hear from someone out there. 

1064
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:51,320
Thank you. 
Yeah. 

1065
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,280
I will definitely link out to 
all those, Make it easy for 

1066
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:55,440
people to find you. 
I certainly appreciate the work 

1067
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,120
you're doing. 
I think it is incredibly 

1068
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,960
important work that needs to be 
bought, brought to the forefront

1069
00:58:59,960 --> 00:59:02,760
of people's minds that are going
through this or people that know

1070
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:03,960
people that are going through 
this. 

1071
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,760
On a separate note, I would love
to help in any way I can because

1072
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,440
like I said, it's something that
I've struggled with. 

1073
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,840
I work with many clients, I've 
struggled with this and I do 

1074
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:17,160
absolutely think that there is a
demographic that would benefit 

1075
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:21,920
immensely from adopting A 
ketogenic lifestyle in as it 

1076
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,360
pertains to overcome disorder 
eating tendencies. 

1077
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:29,320
And I know that is a topic that 
is often times frowned upon by 

1078
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:34,280
people in that space, but I 
think there's a massive upside 

1079
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,040
potential there. 
So if there's anything I can do 

1080
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:39,960
to help, help in any way on that
forefront, by all means man, let

1081
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:41,680
me know. 
I appreciate that. 

1082
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,560
Yeah, there's data and you've 
got your anecdote. 

1083
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,520
There's more and more people 
speaking out about it. 

1084
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,680
And I and I think that there's a
need to amplify that 

1085
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,360
conversation. 
And then I just want to also add

1086
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,360
that the Wiseman nutrition app 
in the Food Log can absolutely 

1087
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,960
can be keto friendly, right? 
We're we're using food groups. 

1088
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,040
Rather than macros. 
And there's, you know, a way to 

1089
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:06,440
distribute your food group plan 
in a way that's ketogenic. 

1090
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:10,800
And so yeah, it's also possible 
that you could explore using the

1091
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:12,480
app with some of your clients. 
Awesome. 

1092
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:13,560
Yeah. 
I think it was great that you 

1093
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:16,200
incorporated that into the app 
because that that surprised me. 

1094
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:17,760
So I'm glad. 
I'm glad to hear you've done 

1095
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:19,640
that for sure. 
That's forward thinking of you 

1096
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,640
without right. 
Well, Doctor Wiz, thanks again. 

1097
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,560
I really appreciate the time. 
Like I said, if there's anything

1098
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:26,200
I can do for you, by all means, 
let me know. 

1099
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:28,680
And until we chat again, man, 
you have a wonderful, wonderful 

1100
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:30,120
day. 
Thanks, Robert. 

1101
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:30,640
Take care.